S01.E14: I Call Marriage

[chocolatine]

So Jack is not only the perfect, loving, husband and father, but now he's also a martyr who holds down the fort at home after 12-hour work days so that his special snowflake wife can have her singing dream. And when he dares mention that it bothers him, Rebecca pouts, and it's Jack who must come up with an OTT romantic gesture to get back in her good graces. Whatever.

Randall needs to quit his job; he can afford to take some time off and he'll find another one when he's ready. He's being gradually "managed out" anyway, and the stress of that is going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Let Sanjay be the new big shot at the firm, and focus on taking care of yourself and your family.

Toby was being a jerk in the drumming class, but I can see why he's feeling needy, being stuck alone in NYC and panicking about his recovery not going as smoothly as it should be. I will lose all respect for Kate if she sleeps with Horse Dick.

The Kevin and Sophie story leaves me absolutely cold. Sophie seems insipid and the two actors have zero chemistry. I saw more of a spark between Kevin and Sloane than between Kevin and Sophie.

1 hour ago, Cardie said:

And Kevin becoming FB friends with Sophie under an assumed identity is as creepy in its way as Horse Dick's stalkery behavior.

I agree that creating a fake profile is creepy, but I also thought it was really weird of Sophie to accept a friend request from a total stranger (with what must have been very little personal information because it was a fake profile). By the time Facebook took off, she was old enough to know better.

Edited February 8, 2017 by chocolatine

[ElectricBoogaloo]

That Was Us:

[Crs97]

Quote

From watching the previews for next episode...I am now at the point where I am LOLing at how that darn Rebecca is just always messing up

Well, when you are married to a superhero the chances are high that the mistakes will always be yours.

I just assume now that any decision Rebecca makes is the wrong one.  Relieves tension.

[Haleth]

Uh oh.  Randall's hand shaking isn't good.  Hopefully (?) it's stress and not a sign of something less fixable.  

 I'm happy to find out Miguel and Shelley divorced amicably.  No cheating, no abuse.  Just two people who decided to let go rather than be unhappy.  There is nothing wrong with that, life is too short.  Speaking of split up couples...

I thought Kevin and Sophie were sweet together and hope they can become friends.  (Since Kevin is still emotionally immature I doubt they will be a couple again.)  I didn't realize that was Marla Gibbs until I saw it here.  Of course!  Perfect comedic timing asking if Kevin was the Manny.

Run, Kate, run!  (No pun intended.)  Both those guys are creepy.  Toby meant well but his continual need to be the center of attention is alarming.  He will never be empathetic to her needs, the grand gestures are always about making himself look good.  (He said so himself.)  

6 hours ago, Spencer Hastings said:

I feel like I'm just watching this show with one eye closed because I'm afraid of losing one of the dads.

Really.  Waiting for them to drop is torture.  Every scene I wonder if this is it.  (Although I'm sure the writers are waiting till the season finale.)  Jack better be in perfect health/wrapped in bubble wrap until Rebecca gets home from her tour.

Everyone needs a Beth to set us straight.

[Jodithgrace]

At one point in an early episode we found out that Jack was drinking too much and not coming home after work, etc. When did that happen, and why haven't we seen any other references to it? It made Jack a little more human, but the writers seem to have forgotten all about it. There should be echoes of it in all of these flashback episodes. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I had a moment when I liked Toby. It was sandwiched between him showing up unexpectedly and then having a temper tantrum. When he told Kate to stay at camp and take all of her classes, I was like finally! That showed more care for Kate than his previous grand gestures. Then he had to ruin it by (1) getting a guest pass so he could stay for the day, which was clearly motivated by his jealousy of Duke, and (2) telling Kate that he wanted her to do something nice for him. STFU, Toby. Yes, he just had surgery, but does that mean his health is more important than hers? He needs to do stuff for his health and she needs to do stuff for her health. She shouldn't neglect her health for the sake of his. It's not like she decided to go to Mexico for spring break. She is committing to losing weight at this camp in lieu of having surgery.

Duke continues to be creepy. There is a difference between being yourself and reveling in your grossness. No, you shouldn't live a lie and pretend to be someone you aren't, but you can still strive to be a better person instead of having the attitude of fuck it, I'm just going to keep on doing what I'm doing.

[bichonblitz]

I'm getting the feeling that maybe Jack and Rebecca get divorced before Jack's death.

5 hours ago, chocolatine said:

The Kevin and Sophie story leaves me absolutely cold. Sophie seems insipid and the two actors have zero chemistry. I saw more of a spark between Kevin and Sloane than between Kevin and Sophie.

I agree. This story line needs to go away. Kevin has a fantasy about the "one that got away". It's not reality. They were together, he fucked up, they got divorced 12 years ago. Let's not try to revive this relationship just because Kevin is desperately trying to find that great love that will make his life worth while. Work on yourself, Kev.  

[Crs97]

5 hours ago, chocolatine said:

So Jack is not only the perfect, loving, husband and father, but now he's also a martyr who holds down the fort at home after 12-hour work days so that his special snowflake wife can have her singing dream. And when he dares mention that it bothers him, Rebecca pouts, and it's Jack who must come up with an OTT romantic gesture to get back in her good graces. Whatever.

Are you saying this tongue in cheek?  Because I see a woman who gave up everything to have the kids Jack wanted, who works 24/7 to be a mom while dad is gone most waking hours, and who finally has a small chance to be Rebecca instead of Jack's wife and the triplet's mom and who thought her husband was supportive only to hear him passively-aggressively dismiss her dream in front of their friends.  Jack rents the apartment so that they won't forget themselves as the newly married couple?  Well, your bride was a singer in a band, Jack.  She is trying to remember that.

[llewis823]

21 hours ago, HeyThere83 said:

 

From watching the previews for next episode...I am now at the point where I am LOLing at how that darn Rebecca is just always messing up

 

I do like Rebecca but when you choose to have children, you can't be running off on tour during their formative years. For that matter, if you have a marriage, you can't be running off leaving your soul mate either. It's all about compromise. She is doing what she loves - music - and is getting paid to do it IN TOWN. Why is that not good enough for her? 

Does anyone else feel like there was no continuity in the Kevin/Sophie story? I mean, no mention at all of him thinking about or dreaming about Sophie. First mention of her was when Toby says "Who is the one person you really love?" (or however he said it.)  Someone else mentioned how they thought maybe the Olivia/Sloane thing was not being well received or conducive to the writing and that was why Sophie was brought in. Then again, everything else seems to be well thought out in this show (with the exception of silly logistics like 2 bedrooms in a huge house like Randall & Beth's and not parking the car in the garage, and Kate & Toby's jobs). That all being said, I do like the Sophie/Kevin combination. I think because they started out so young together, they really do "get" each other at the most basic levels.

[luna1122]

7 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

 

What are lava fries?  Is that just a fancy name for chili fries or are they something else.  And why would anyone eat them first thing in the morning?

I assumed chili fries too. But they weren't eating them in the am, were they? Kevin ordered them the first time they were at the diner, which I assumed was lunch or afternoon. Did they get them for breakfast too?

Everyone monologues on this show. I am uncertain I have ever monologued in real life, but last nite, Rebecca did it, Kevin did it, Beth did it, etc. Take a breath, people.

Kate...ugh. Toby is incredibly obtuse and invasive and has no clue about boundaries, but you say you love him, you accepted his proposal. Her even being tempted by Horse Dick is so boring. He is so gross. I don't even like Toby but I was itching for him to punch Duke in the face. I think perhaps Kate could do better than either of them, but then again...she's seriously no prize herself, and it has nothing to do with the weight. I cut her slack for all her issues, and how they've affected her emotionally, but she's just too passive aggressive and whiny. She wears on my nerves.

Kevin is ridiculously charming. I loved the little diner interlude with Marla Gibbs and her hubby, and her recognizing him as the Manny. I like Sophie. I think she SHOULDN'T fall for him again, it's unlikely to go anywhere good, but I do actually believe he does love her, despite the infidelity. I would personally not give a cheater another chance, but I understand her weakness for him. He's just so glimmery and gold and shiny, he glitters when he walks, and he gets away with murder. He will probably blow this, and I certainly hope Sophie actually breaks up with the 'solid, good' man she's dating (and I do hate that 'solid' in TVland means dull, because after dating various charming big talkers who take up all the air in the room, a good, solid, drama free man is actually the sexiest thing on earth for me) and doesn't cheat on HIM.

I do not want to find that Rebecca and Jack divorced before his death (which, yes, I believe was telegraphed to us last nite as happening abruptly, without warning). Rebecca going on the road with hot-eyed bandmate doesn't bode well, and I don't think it will be the end of them, but it could certainly cause a rift. Being the one left behind while your partner is away pursuing a dream that involves dark bars and romantic ballads can't be easy.

I have never hated Miguel, still don't, but last nite was the first time I found him even remotely attractive. Or at least, not UNattractive.

I see others are charmed by Beth's "I call marriage" but I wasn't really. Bossing your spouse/partner around, no matter if you're right or not, is not pretty to me. Poor Randall really is at the end of his emotional rope, but I'm uncertain that was helpful. I'm hoping his hand tremors are anxiety-related and not a precursor to Parkinson's or something.

[DayGlorious]

8 hours ago, breezy424 said:

There's a lot of truth in what Duke says to Kate (don't get me wrong, I can't stand him) and Kate is seeing that truth. 

Toby has been saying the same things all along, and she hasn't listened. Maybe that's the point, though. 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

 

Duke can get trampled by a horse at anytime.

Please.  Please please please. 

10 hours ago, mtlchick said:

Lalalala I can't hear you!  And yet, I'm sort of suspecting that it will be tied into it.  The kids are teens at this point so while we didn't see them during Jack/Rebecca time, I can see Rebecca wanting to pursue her dream, she does it, and he dies while she is on tour.  With the hours he puts in, I can see his heart simply gives out.  She is upset, turns to Miguel now that he is alone and blammo.  Now...prove me wrong, show!  Don't make me clairvoyant!

I was so worried that there was going to be an accident on the way to their romantic getaway resulting in his death. 

It was an okay episode.  I wasn't blown away. The Randall story and the past story were so strong, but I don't care about Kevin and Sophie, and Horse Dick really bugs me.  I did like Toby pointing out to Kate how vulnerable and lonely he was there.  He's not a perfect character, but I like him.

[PRgal]

I think Toby is gross too.  He's verging onto stalker territory by barging in on Kate's retreat like that.  And also, I didn't know light up shoes came in adult sizes. 

[Neurochick]

11 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

I think Randall's fierce denial about William's death is that he's gone through this before with Jack and it devastated him. He's doing his damnedest to avoid feeling that devestation again but it's a tide he can only push against for so long. He is literally trying to be an emotionless rock but it's only making him brittle and easier to break/snap.

I think that there is a parallel between Jack and Randall.  Randall IMO really modeled himself after Jack, always trying to be perfect, the perfect dad, the perfect husband.  That is probably how he saw Jack (remember the Thanksgiving traditions that Randall does with his own family).  I think Jack's struggle to be perfect might be what kills him in the end and is now killing Randall.  Hopefully Randall will see that he's going down the same road as Jack.

 

7 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

His speech to Jack about why he and Shelly divorced just made me dislike him even more. It sounds like you just stopped trying Miguel and then you were just like "well
Whatever, I don't care anyway" I mean.. huh? What am I supposed to take from that?

I don't get this.  It wasn't just Miguel, it was Shelly too.  They got to a point where neither one of them really gave a shit, they didn't care about each other any more so felt it wasn't necessary to stay married.  

I really don't get the Miguel hate.  I wish someone would explain it to me.

[cardigirl]

48 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

Everyone monologues on this show. I am uncertain I have ever monologued in real life, but last nite, Rebecca did it, Kevin did it, Beth did it, etc. Take a breath, people.

I see others are charmed by Beth's "I call marriage" but I wasn't really. Bossing your spouse/partner around, no matter if you're right or not, is not pretty to me. Poor Randall really is at the end of his emotional rope, but I'm uncertain that was helpful. I'm hoping his hand tremors are anxiety-related and not a precursor to Parkinson's or something.

Loved your entire post, but singled out these two thoughts as being exactly what I was thinking while watching this episode.  Too much 'lecturing' and I totally did not like the "I call marriage" without any discussion as to why Randall felt he had to go to the dinner.  That seemed false to me.  Real couples would ask why and what for, not just shut each other down.  

In fairness, though, Randall was being pretty dismissive about the whole idea of preparing for his biological father's death.  Understandable, but again, no real discussion, just commands being made. 

Not my favorite episode this week.

[Clanstarling]

11 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

A lot of poignancy this episode.

The flashbacks really did start to tell a lot about the present day. I love Rebecca telling off her piano player about Jack and their family. As much as they do keep propping up Jack, I think that moment was needed because those sly comments from men and women go by unnoticed all the time, so I love that Rebecca noticed and shut it down. 

So, Randall's having nightmares about William's death and wants to remain in denial. How realistic to see that happening, and it has to suck. But he was being a jerk about it, and he was a jerk to Tess with him taking those dinner reservations to not go to the chess tournament. Beth had to pull the marriage card. But it's nice foreshadowing on how we might see young Randall cope after Jack's death. Also, did Beth imply that Jack died suddenly then during the memory box scene?

Denial is a horrible stage - especially when the rest of the family is at a different stage in the process. My father was a nightmare to all of us (my dying mother, my brother, me, the hospice workers, and the doctor) because he couldn't and wouldn't accept reality.

11 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

Man, if it's when Rebecca is on tour that Jack dies?! That's gonna eat at her and the kids. 

Also I wonder if how Randall found William dead in his dream might be how he found Jack when he died. Pure speculation.

I think Randall's fierce denial about William's death is that he's gone through this before with Jack and it devastated him. He's doing his damnedest to avoid feeling that devestation again but it's a tide he can only push against for so long. He is literally trying to be an emotionless rock but it's only making him brittle and easier to break/snap.

Also subtle paralleling of Jack and Randall being supermen on the verge of breaking. Randall has emulated Jack so much in his adult life. Now we're seeing his beginning to break- possibly like Jack did- under the pressure.  

Duke can get trampled by a horse at anytime.

Yes, on everything you said.

10 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Up until now I haven't been bothered by Jack's near-perfection, but this was a little too much.  I

And Kate, what the hell?  You aren't going to revert to eating, but you'll crash and burn your relationship for sex with a creep.  You need some more drumming breakthroughs. 

I couldn't believe it when she approached the cabin. She had enough self-respect to call Toby out on his behavior, but then to go to this douche? Arrgghh!

8 hours ago, DebbieM4 said:

I seem to be a party of one, but I thought this episode was boring.   My love for this show is not as strong as it once was.   The first few episodes knocked it out of the park every time in a very big way, but it's been inconsistent for me since then.  I'm hanging in, of course, because there are aspects and characters I really enjoy.  But I thought tonight was a letdown.

I didn't find it particularly riveting either, but I still love it.

7 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

Still don't like Miguel. Wasn't he supposed to become sympathetic soon?

His speech to Jack about why he and Shelly divorced just made me dislike him even more. It sounds like you just stopped trying Miguel and then you were just like "well
Whatever, I don't care anyway" I mean.. huh? What am I supposed to take from that?

His speech sounded pretty realistic to me, based on my own experience, and those of friends of mine who've also gone through divorce.

[Crs97]

Frankly, my favorite part of their divorce discussion was when Shelly smiled at Miguel as she said they wanted to end the marriage while they could still be friends and co-parents.  I liked both Shelly and Miguel more after that.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I had a moment when I liked Toby. It was sandwiched between him showing up unexpectedly and then having a temper tantrum. When he told Kate to stay at camp and take all of her classes, I was like finally! That showed more care for Kate than his previous grand gestures. Then he had to ruin it by (1) getting a guest pass so he could stay for the day, which was clearly motivated by his jealousy of Duke, and (2) telling Kate that he wanted her to do something nice for him. STFU, Toby. Yes, he just had surgery, but does that mean his health is more important than hers? He needs to do stuff for his health and she needs to do stuff for her health. She shouldn't neglect her health for the sake of his. It's not like she decided to go to Mexico for spring break. She is committing to losing weight at this camp in lieu of having surgery.

Duke continues to be creepy. There is a difference between being yourself and reveling in your grossness. No, you shouldn't live a lie and pretend to be someone you aren't, but you can still strive to be a better person instead of having the attitude of fuck it, I'm just going to keep on doing what I'm doing.

For me there was 3) - being a goof during something Kate was taking seriously and embarrassing her. That is a hot button for me.

[BuckeyeLou]

Toby really bugs me....everything is a joke, I realize he uses joking as a cover for his issues, but its annoying and he is stalker-ish with Kate.  But my biggest beef with Toby is: we know nothing about him!  Does he have a job?!  He just up and left LA to go to NY and then he is in the Hospital, does he have insurance through a job?  Didnt he have to take a leave of absence from a job?  Does he have family?(I know we saw an Ex-wife, but we dont know much about that relationship). All Toby does is follow Kate around and bother her...I guess this is supposed to be 'romantic", but it makes him look pathetic.  Is Toby living on inherited money?

[msani19]

9 hours ago, teapot100 said:

Peoples, go easy on Kate - the thing about this show is that the characters are, in many ways, very realistic. Kate is a significantly overweight woman in her mid-30s - I'm guessing she doesn't have a while lot of self-esteem or confidence. She's going to make mistakes. She sees this guy as wanting her - but maybe he is all kinds of wrong for her. She can't see that.  I'm guessing she has not had someone be this aggressive/assertive just to be with her - can you imagine what a boost to her ego that is? This is like a Harlequin novel coming to life for her. She's only human.

1

Very much agree on the point about Kate and her self-esteem. My problem with Duke or Douche is that he's such a POS that it makes my blood boil. When Toby showed up and he was telling him that the place was like a playground to get women to sleep with him, I as so grossed out. That such a classic tactic (those MRA and pick-up artists losers talk about it all the time) to take advantage of vulnerable women. I also think he's got no self-esteem himself (separate from his own weight issue). No one with any confidence, small or large, feels the need to prey upon any other human being. It would be laughably pathetic if it wasn't harmful. The guy is a repugnant jerk. What was the show thinking with that addition? 

I know that feeling Randall was having at work…splitting accounts is just the first step. I've been there. You gotta be twice as good, all the time. You can never have a "rough patch", it's not afforded to you. He won’t react well to this and I feel like there’s a potential rift between him and Rebecca coming. He’ll be pissed that she called “marriage” for the night and allowed Sanjay to get the client for himself. I like the "I call marriage" as a concept. Maybe they have talked about it before but I missed it but are there parameters for it or either one can just call "marriage" and the other one needs to agree?

I don't have much to say about Kevin and Sophie. I don't know how I feel about him playing up on the "we grew up together" card. How is her X-ray tech BF supposed to compete with a guy who remembers she wore overalls and a Punky Brewster backpack in 4th grade? Nostalgia like that is tough to beat. 

Jack is like pure perfection and it is almost too much to take, but I love every moment of it.  

[Neurochick]

One annoying thing for me.  The budget on this show must be ZERO because they're not even trying to pretend they're in NYC.  Subways looked like that that decades ago, show.  I guess no one knows how to Google, "New York City subways."

[msani19]

1 minute ago, Neurochick said:

Subways looked like that that decades ago, show.  I guess no one knows how to Google, "New York City subways."

I was thinking the same thing! I couldn't figure out what city it was supposed to be based on the subway trains. 

[Driad]

13(?) year old Kate asked her mother for a tampon. Kate should have her own supply. Give her the box, or at least a handful.

Jack's surprise -- wouldn't blindfolded Rebecca guess where they were by the time they walked up 6 flights of stairs?

[Paloma]

1 hour ago, llewis823 said:

I do like Rebecca but when you choose to have children, you can't be running off on tour during their formative years. For that matter, if you have a marriage, you can't be running off leaving your soul mate either. It's all about compromise. She is doing what she loves - music - and is getting paid to do it IN TOWN. Why is that not good enough for her? 

I agree with most of this but have to disagree with "Why is that not good enough for her?" Although in show terms Rebecca was not presented as having a big career before marriage that she had to give up when she had kids, singing was obviously an important part of who she was. I know many young people in the arts (through my daughter, who is a professional dancer), and for most of them dance, music, or other art form is an integral part of their identity--even if they don't make a lot of money at it. My daughter had a baby a few months ago (not necessarily planned, but still welcomed) and had to give up several performance gigs. It was very difficult at that point in her career, and she really struggles with the feeling of losing herself. She's trying to come back now but can't easily do the kind of travel and rehearsal/performance time that is required. It's also important to note that usually it is only the mother who has to make these major compromises when having a child (unless the father chooses to cut back his career or be the stay-at-home parent, which is pretty rare in any field).  So I have sympathy for Rebecca because in this area, as in so many others in the show, she is seen as the less-perfect parent because she is not willing or able to be the perfect super-parent like Jack. 

[WoodyCee]

Instead of going to Cabin 13 Kate should have gone to the camp director's office and reported Horse Guy for sexual harassment.  That asshole needs to be fired.  

I was wondering how he's still employed!!! When he made the comment about the other woman never achieving crow pose. Are they all so self hating that nobody has complained? The camp probably thrives on reviews.

[Tikichick]

12 hours ago, TobinAlbers said:

Man, if it's when Rebecca is on tour that Jack dies?! That's gonna eat at her and the kids. 

Also I wonder if how Randall found William dead in his dream might be how he found Jack when he died. Pure speculation.

I think Randall's fierce denial about William's death is that he's gone through this before with Jack and it devastated him. He's doing his damnedest to avoid feeling that devestation again but it's a tide he can only push against for so long. He is literally trying to be an emotionless rock but it's only making him brittle and easier to break/snap.

Also subtle paralleling of Jack and Randall being supermen on the verge of breaking. Randall has emulated Jack so much in his adult life. Now we're seeing his beginning to break- possibly like Jack did- under the pressure.  

Duke can get trampled by a horse at anytime.

Because it hurts I want you to be wrong about everything . . . except the trampling.

[sunsheyen]

Posting before reading the rest of the thread so if things have been touched on, forgive me!

MARLA GIBBS! Loved it!

When will Randall branch off on his own professionally? And is his boss the same one he talked off the ledge? My memory (and too much tv) is not helping me here. I also would like to see a scene where Randall talks to William about family health history just to get some background for himself and his kids. He needs to take advantage of this opportunity. Is there Parkinson's coming or is the hand shaking a stress related tremor?

Horse Dick is a piece of shit. How does he still have his job? Are there no rules about staff/client interaction? He is totally gross. I liked Toby showing up for Kate but "being himself" and taking over the class was a dick move. Didn't he already acknowledge that Kate didn't have enough "kate spaces" like when they talked about her singing or anything we might not have seen offscreen when they are getting to know each other (enough to consider marriage)?

As much as I want to buy into the sentimentality, I don't really care about Kevin and Sophie.

[OtterMommy]

7 hours ago, chocolatine said:

The Kevin and Sophie story leaves me absolutely cold. Sophie seems insipid and the two actors have zero chemistry. I saw more of a spark between Kevin and Sloane than between Kevin and Sophie.

I have far more interest in seeing Sophie and Kate reconcile than I am to see Sophie and Kevin reconcile.

Quote

I agree that creating a fake profile is creepy, but I also thought it was really weird of Sophie to accept a friend request from a total stranger (with what must have been very little personal information because it was a fake profile). By the time Facebook took off, she was old enough to know better.

Ugh!  Yes!  I forgot to mention that part, but that was definitely...strange.  It also came off as a desperate attempt by the show to try to explain why Kevin knew where Sophie was and how she was doing.  A far more believable way would have been for Sophie and Kate to be FB friends (although we don't know how their friendship ended.  Even if it ended less than amicably when Sophie and Kevin divorced, I could still see Kate and Sophie being FB friends in the same way I am FB friends with loads of people in High School I barely remember) and Kate had told Kevin how Sophie was doing.

Also, I wish Sophie's name was anything but Sophie.  Or Sloane's name was anything but Sloane...because I am mixing those two up right and left.

[LydiaMoon1]

10 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

Jack is officially the ultimate Gary Stu. Seriously, his nonstop utter perfection is just cartoonish at this point.

Because ^ can't be said enough.  It's become ridiculous.

 

8 hours ago, Cardie said:

Much as I love William, does he have to be an expert chess player along with all his other accomplishments?

I agree. These writers sure love to lay it on thick.

With that being said and even though I have real problems with the way the show is writing the male characters, Randall is the heart of the show for me.  Without him and his family, I'd have no interest in watching.

[Tikichick]

11 hours ago, Packerbrewerbadger said:

I think they're teasing us about Kate and horse guy, like when Toby wouldn't let her in his apt in the preview.  I think she goes there just to talk to him .  And I'm so glad she told Toby he was an ass in that class too, because he was!

Agree.  Her expression is different in the episode when we see her walking and in the preview where she is in the doorway and looks ticked off.  I think she has that predator's number and is ready to put him on the do not call registry.

[OtterMommy]

2 hours ago, llewis823 said:

Does anyone else feel like there was no continuity in the Kevin/Sophie story? I mean, no mention at all of him thinking about or dreaming about Sophie. First mention of her was when Toby says "Who is the one person you really love?" (or however he said it.)  Someone else mentioned how they thought maybe the Olivia/Sloane thing was not being well received or conducive to the writing and that was why Sophie was brought in. Then again, everything else seems to be well thought out in this show (with the exception of silly logistics like 2 bedrooms in a huge house like Randall & Beth's and not parking the car in the garage, and Kate & Toby's jobs). That all being said, I do like the Sophie/Kevin combination. I think because they started out so young together, they really do "get" each other at the most basic levels.

Yes!  Up until this point, I was confident that this show was well thought out.  However, the Kevin and Sophie thing just feels like something the writers kind of threw in there because they needed something for Kevin to do for 8 or so more episodes.

[luna1122]

8 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

I have far more interest in seeing Sophie and Kate reconcile than I am to see Sophie and Kevin reconcile.

Ugh!  Yes!  I forgot to mention that part, but that was definitely...strange.  It also came off as a desperate attempt by the show to try to explain why Kevin knew where Sophie was and how she was doing.  A far more believable way would have been for Sophie and Kate to be FB friends (although we don't know how their friendship ended.  Even if it ended less than amicably when Sophie and Kevin divorced, I could still see Kate and Sophie being FB friends in the same way I am FB friends with loads of people in High School I barely remember) and Kate had told Kevin how Sophie was doing.

 

Yeah, that bugged me too. Lots of folks who aren't really friends any more in real life are still FB friends. So are ex spouses. So are ex sisters in law (I am with my brother's ex), so yeah, I wish they'd shown that there was still some connection between the family and Sophie, in that way. She also would have known Randall and Beth--none of them stayed even peripherally in touch? Guess not. I would have preferred that as well. Also, was there a hint of incredulity or amazement from Sophie when Kevin mentioned Kate was engaged? It seemed so to me.

Edited February 8, 2017 by luna1122

[Tikichick]

10 hours ago, AuntiePam said:

What teapot100 said -- I think Kate going to Duke's cabin -- if she's indeed planning to have sex with him -- is to show us how much she hates herself.  She might not realize it herself, and sleeping with that asshole might be the epiphany she needs. 

Because Toby was right -- when has she ever done anything for him?  He continues to woo her, even after she's said Yes.  She wants him around, then she doesn't, because he doesn't behave exactly like she wants him to behave.  Toby is who he is -- sometimes over the top, and failing to anticipate all possible reactions -- but he'd never hurt her and she must know that.  I'm rapidly losing patience with her.

I think Kate really did quite a lot for Toby when he needed it most, critically ill and too scared to accept the option offering his best odds of survival and being able to resume normal life.  

[bybrandy]

8 hours ago, breezy424 said:

But even with an older home, don't you go out the 'back' door to the detached garage?

I've never lived in a home with a detached garage where it would make sense to go out the back.   Houses with attached garages have a side door, or whatever that goes from the house to the garage.  But detatched garage houses I've lived at have a back door that goes to a fenced in back yard and a front door that goes to the front of the house and then driveway.  

My house doesn't have have a door that leads out of the garage except for the garage doors so I never go out that way unless I have to open the garage doors anyway (IE if I'm parked in the garage or taking out the trash or something).   It's just too cumbersome to hit the button and to wait for the garage door to open and close.    

Don't get me wrong it totally wouldn't bug me if he used a side/back door.  But I have been in lots of houses where the front door makes the most amount of sense to get to the driveway.   And a few houses where literally I never once used the front door ever for anything and when people rang the front doorbell I was all, "weird, why would somebody come in that way".   It just really depends on the layout of your particular house.

 

 

2 hours ago, luna1122 said:

I see others are charmed by Beth's "I call marriage" but I wasn't really. Bossing your spouse/partner around, no matter if you're right or not, is not pretty to me.

I totally see your point if you saw that as her bossing him around.  I didn't take it that way.  I took it as a communication touch stone.  Being more, "Hey, I don't think you're hearing how incredibly important this is to me."   Sometimes it is so easy to get caught up in what's going on with you that it is easy not to hear the other person and I've been in relationships especially jokey/sarcastic relationships where it was important to have a place to say, "This is a serious thing here" and having a watchword to clue the other person in that "this is a serious thing here" helped immensely.   So that is how I took Beth's "I call marriage".   And I was glad for them that they had those communication keys.  

But if that wasn't a preagreed upon watchword for them then it is less cool.  

[ShadowFacts]

11 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Agree.  Her expression is different in the episode when we see her walking and in the preview where she is in the doorway and looks ticked off.  I think she has that predator's number and is ready to put him on the do not call registry.

They could go a few different ways with this, but the straightforward approach where she goes and tells him to back off or she will report him is certainly the one I favor.  However, she has already had ample opportunity to do it, including immediately before that in the gym, and she hasn't, so I don't know if that is what we'll see.  What I really don't want to see is her going there to tell him to step off, and then falling into his arms for the hot, forbidden sex that she has to keep secret from Toby and which causes guilt and overeating.  I think the repeated Cabin 13 references have been planted for a reason and that something pretty significant is going to happen inside of it, and I hope it's not super soap-y.

[Tikichick]

17 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

Yes!  Up until this point, I was confident that this show was well thought out.  However, the Kevin and Sophie thing just feels like something the writers kind of threw in there because they needed something for Kevin to do for 8 or so more episodes.

My hunch is Kevin's story will prove to be very tied to another marriage we will see play out.

[bybrandy]

15 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

Yeah, that bugged me too. Lots of folks who aren't really friends any more in real life are still FB friends.

12 years ago was 2005.  Facebook only launched in 2004 and was still limited to colleges and universities until 2006.  So by the time the family got Facebook Kevin and Sophie would have been divorced already.   I could totally see her not unfriending the family when they divorced.  But she would have had to look them up as they all gradually drifted onto Facebook and by then presumably she wasn't thinking of them all that frequently.

[Tikichick]

Not to sound like a super expert or anything, but the nickname Horse Dick is completely inappropriate unless it is being used as an oxymoron.  His behavior makes it clear the comparison would be absurd in the extreme.

[JudyObscure]

I probably should go straight to Unpopular Opinions, but it's about this episode so here goes:

I can't stand Sophie.  I, thankfully, never see this type of woman in real life although she's everywhere in the fictional world.  She has known Kevin since she was a little girl, she was married to him for several years, and  yet after a twelve year lapse,she can't sit down with him and have a half hour conversation ?  First she nearly slams the door on him.  Then she condescends to meets him and talk, but gets up and flounces at the first imperfect phrase.  She makes him chase her down the street, and pouts on the subway.  Grow up Sophie, treat another human being with minimal courtesy and, although I know these show writers think "Not calling first," is somewhere in between first and second degree murder, Kevin knocking on your door after twelve years is not "invasive."  You didn't come home and find him in your bedroom reading your diary.  He knocked on your front door and took a polite step back when you opened it. 

Toby actually is invasive, going to her retreat, inserting himself into her class, passively aggressively giving her his grandmother's ring when she's in no mood for romance. Ugh.

I like Horse Dick better than Toby.  I think maybe he was right when he said she was trying to be someone she isn't.  Maybe Kate just wants to eat donuts and have hot, spontaneous sex.  If she and Horse Dick looked like the two stars of "Shades of Gray," I'll bet it wouldn't all seem so icky.

Beth is controlling and bossy.  If they have an, "I call marriage," clause, surely it was intended for things like, "My mother just died, stay home from work with me."  Not a chess match.  It's great to attend your kids' events, but when they're in a whole lot of activities and you have a demanding job, you might just have to miss a few things. The kids should learn that having a cheering section isn't a guaranteed thing for every moment of life.

I have seen quite enough close-ups of Mandy Moore's mouth.  No more please.

[Lady Calypso]

2 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I probably should go straight to Unpopular Opinions, but it's about this episode so here goes:

I can't stand Sophie.  I, thankfully, never see this type of woman in real life although she's everywhere in the fictional world.  She has known Kevin since she was a little girl, she was married to him for several years, and  yet after a twelve year lapse,she can't sit down with him and have a half hour conversation ?  First she nearly slams the door on him.  Then she condescends to meets him and talk, but gets up and flounces at the first imperfect phrase.  She makes him chase her down the street, and pouts on the subway.  Grow up Sophie, treat another human being with minimal courtesy and, although I know these show writers think "Not calling first," is somewhere in between first and second degree murder, Kevin knocking on your door after twelve years is not "invasive."  You didn't come home and find him in your bedroom reading your diary.  He knocked on your front door and took a polite step back when you opened it. 

That's a fair opinion. Although, if I can present another side to this situation, Sophie stated that things ended very badly between her and Kevin. He cheated on her and it seems like he took off right after their divorce was being finalized. Supposedly, they also had other issues, such as Kevin moving to LA while Sophie wanted to stay in New York. Then he didn't talk to her for 12 years until he showed up, professing his love, and then expected things to be picked back up. If I were Sophie, I'd be cautious, at best, but I'd probably also react the same as her. Why would she want to get hurt again? I like Kevin, but it really does sound like he was awful to her in those last few months or whatever of their marriage and then him showing up and trying to win her over was the wrong way to handle things. We haven't seen any flashbacks to their marriage or how it was like by the end, but it doesn't sound like it ended well. I thought Sophie handled Kevin right. What was she supposed to do? She had all the power because he wronged her. Sure, we'll probably find out that she had some blame in the implosion of their marriage, as Miguel even implied that the end to his marriage was a two way street, but Kevin did cheat on her and took off without talking to her for 12 years. In my opinion, Kevin was in the wrong and did all the wrong things this episode. I think it should have taken more time for Sophie to forgive him. 

I thought she did treat him with courtesy as well. She showed up, sat down, listened to him, and it wasn't until Kevin reminded her on how their marriage ended that she took off. I think she has every right to be pissed at him. 

But maybe I'm biased here because I love Sophie and love that she had such a spark to her personality. 

[Indy]

Didn't love this episode.  Kevin and Sophie were boring, too much Toby, and waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much Horse Dick.  Sophie is in a relationship, Kevin needs to leave that the hell alone.  And Kate needs to do Kate for a while before settling down with either obnoxious douchebag. 

I still love Beth, Randall, and co. Tammy Taylor used to be TV guide for being a wife/mom but now Beth is in there too. I love her with the girls, trying to help them with the memory box and gently prepare them for the inevitable. Randall needs to get a new job before he snaps completely because he cannot handle Sanjay and William at the same time. 

[luna1122]

28 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

They could go a few different ways with this, but the straightforward approach where she goes and tells him to back off or she will report him is certainly the one I favor.  However, she has already had ample opportunity to do it, including immediately before that in the gym, and she hasn't, so I don't know if that is what we'll see.  What I really don't want to see is her going there to tell him to step off, and then falling into his arms for the hot, forbidden sex that she has to keep secret from Toby and which causes guilt and overeating.  I think the repeated Cabin 13 references have been planted for a reason and that something pretty significant is going to happen inside of it, and I hope it's not super soap-y.

I do think it's a pre-agreed upon marital touchstone, but it still bugged me. Surely there should still be some communication involved with it? Not just an absolute veto in which no details are needed? If Randall had felt he was about to lose his job over this chess match, and he kind of did feel that way, I think, surely that would be more important. But he meekly went along with Beth and the 'I call marriage' veto, so maybe not.

26 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

My hunch is Kevin's story will prove to be very tied to another marriage we will see play out.

I'm hoping that doesn't mean there is infidelity and divorce in Rebecca and Jack's marriage.

23 minutes ago, bybrandy said:

12 years ago was 2005.  Facebook only launched in 2004 and was still limited to colleges and universities until 2006.  So by the time the family got Facebook Kevin and Sophie would have been divorced already.   I could totally see her not unfriending the family when they divorced.  But she would have had to look them up as they all gradually drifted onto Facebook and by then presumably she wasn't thinking of them all that frequently.

Yes, all true. But people DO look up folks from much longer ago than that, and clearly, Sophie has also thought of Kevin often, and so it doesn't seem unlikely to me. But apparently she did not.

16 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I probably should go straight to Unpopular Opinions, but it's about this episode so here goes:

I can't stand Sophie.  I, thankfully, never see this type of woman in real life although she's everywhere in the fictional world.  She has known Kevin since she was a little girl, she was married to him for several years, and  yet after a twelve year lapse,she can't sit down with him and have a half hour conversation ?  First she nearly slams the door on him.  Then she condescends to meets him and talk, but gets up and flounces at the first imperfect phrase.  She makes him chase her down the street, and pouts on the subway.  Grow up Sophie, treat another human being with minimal courtesy and, although I know these show writers think "Not calling first," is somewhere in between first and second degree murder, Kevin knocking on your door after twelve years is not "invasive."  You didn't come home and find him in your bedroom reading your diary.  He knocked on your front door and took a polite step back when you opened it. 

I agree her running all over the place was one of those annoying behaviors that's supposed to seem all dramatic or something, and it was ultimately just sort of stupid. I can kind of understand her mixed emotions; she clearly still has feelings for Kevin. I personally wouldn't cross the street to talk to my ex, who I was married to for 14 years, BUT I also wouldn't have agreed to meet him and then flounce out dramatically. But I still like Sophie.

Quote

 

I like Horse Dick better than Toby.  I think maybe he was right when he said she was trying to be someone she isn't.  Maybe Kate just wants to eat donuts and have hot, spontaneous sex.  If she and Horse Dick looked like the two stars of "Shades of Gray," I'll bet it wouldn't all seem so icky.

That might be true for some, but it would still earn a big ick from me. And I have no problem at all with Kate actually wanting donuts and hot sex, I just want her to own it without some pushy, creepy guy telling her it's what she wants. And break up with Toby first.

I liked Miguel's little story (tho it was yet another monologue) about the coffee; I appreciated the minutiae of it all. Sometimes marriages DO die with a bang, but just as often, it's with a whimper. I thought the actor delivered it all nicely.

 

Quote

 

Edited February 8, 2017 by luna1122

[Crs97]

1 hour ago, Paloma said:

2 hours ago, llewis823 said:

I do like Rebecca but when you choose to have children, you can't be running off on tour during their formative years. For that matter, if you have a marriage, you can't be running off leaving your soul mate either. It's all about compromise. She is doing what she loves - music - and is getting paid to do it IN TOWN. Why is that not good enough for her? 

I agree with most of this but have to disagree with "Why is that not good enough for her?" Although in show terms Rebecca was not presented as having a big career before marriage that she had to give up when she had kids, singing was obviously an important part of who she was. I know many young people in the arts (through my daughter, who is a professional dancer), and for most of them dance, music, or other art form is an integral part of their identity--even if they don't make a lot of money at it. My daughter had a baby a few months ago (not necessarily planned, but still welcomed) and had to give up several performance gigs. It was very difficult at that point in her career, and she really struggles with the feeling of losing herself. She's trying to come back now but can't easily do the kind of travel and rehearsal/performance time that is required. It's also important to note that usually it is only the mother who has to make these major compromises when having a child (unless the father chooses to cut back his career or be the stay-at-home parent, which is pretty rare in any field).  So I have sympathy for Rebecca because in this area, as in so many others in the show, she is seen as the less-perfect parent because she is not willing or able to be the perfect super-parent like Jack. 

I am uncomfortable with the original question because I don't hear men being asked it.  Fathers travel all the time for work; my dad had to live in other countries for months at a time and couldn't just drag us all out of school.  Mom held down the fort each time.  When she travelled for her work after we got older, Dad was in charge.  Baseball players, basketball players, musicians - should they all just quit after a child is born?

It didn't sound like Rebecca rejoined the band in order to tour, but now the entire band has been presented with the opportunity and she has a responsibility to them as well. If she cancelled, would the agent still want the others to tour?  And a five-state tour will last how long?  A few weeks?  Do we know how old the children are at this point?

Before I even was married, I remember hearing a friend talk to her young child about being gone for a weekend.  I remember clearly her telling her daughter "I love being your dad's wife and your mother, but there is also a [insert name here] inside of me who has to be heard and has to be allowed to come out and play so that I can continue to be your mom."  I totally understand her now.

Quote

She didn't have anything nice to say about him during the catch-up discussion with Kevin, but maybe the divorce between Miguel and Shelley got ugly.

Actually, she asked how Rebecca and Miguel were and rolled her eyes and clearly showed disdain that Kevin still doesn't like Miguel.  She has some sort of nickname for Miguel (Miggy?) that Kevin doesn't like, and I assume he doesn't like it because it shows she had a good relationship with him.  If she were his daughter, she would have called him Dad.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Crs97

[pammieg99]

I'm just wondering if (in the way this shows ties in things seemingly unrelated until they are) Sophie is Miguel and Shelly's daughter. She joined in with Kevin in poking fun at Miguel when they were catching up on the subway, but maybe Shelly and Miguel's divorce turned ugly.

[kili]

I'm actually not all that mad at Randall's boss. Here me out. He has said repeatedly that the Windmill farm and green energy is a new area for them. Randall  already works his butt off. First in in the morning and last to go home. If the boss wants to expand into a new area and take on lots of new clients, he can't rely just on Randall. How much more can one person work? How can Randall handle lots of new customers if he is already working harder than everyone else? So, the boss brings in a second person and re-distributes the work while ramping up for the new customers.

I can see why Randall is wary. He is used to being the star of the office and the hardest worker. He doesn't want another star in his galaxy. Plus, those kind of competitive business environments would tend to make one paranoid. But, how does he plan on handling lots of new customers? Does he want no work-life balance? Does he never want to see his kids again? Does he think sleep is an addiction that can be beaten? Randall is already trying to skip chess matches and having shaking  hands. A good boss knows that they just can't keep piling work onto people. At some point, they will break.

Of course, if this boss is the same guy who makes people come to his house for Christmas and throws bonus cheques on the floor, I may be giving him too much credit. But, then again, he might have at one time been Randall and now he sees how his life is just an empty shell. 

If Duke's parents don't own the Fat Camp, I don't know what is going on. There is no way that such a predatory and de-motivating person should have lasted that long at the Fat Camp. Clearly, other female campers have had problems with him and he quite openly boasts to the male campers what he is doing. He did say his parents were disappointed in him. I think that is because he can't get a job, so they give him a job just to keep him out of a homeless shelter. His entitlement and absolute unconcern for his job also makes me thinks that he is unlikely to be fired due to some nepotism. Perhaps he is blackmailing the camp owners. IDK. It makes no sense otherwise.

I like Kevin and Sophie together. Kevin notices things about her when he tends to be oblivious about people he doesn't love. The scene with the couple in the restaurant was fun. If Kevin first saw Sophie in Grade 4, does that mean she wasn't 8 year old Sofie at the pool? Or perhaps she was just new to town?

Rebecca at least gets to do something that she loves (singing). Jack works 12 hours a day at a job he hates. Going on a five state tour seems like too much at this point in the triplet's lives. Unless she is earning a lot on that tour so that Jack can reduce his work hours, so that he has the time to fill in during her absence.

[bichonblitz]

I posted earlier that maybe Jack and Rebecca divorce before Jack's death. My theory on why the kids don't like Miguel is because Rebecca married him before Jack died. If I was a kid (or teenager or young adult), it would piss me off if my mom married my dad's best friend while my dad was still alive or even shortly after his death, for that matter. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

It's one of the worst feelings in your gut to think that someone in your company may be taking your place. It a helpless feeling, especially when you know you are damn good at your job. Problem with Randall is he doesn't express these feelings to his wife so how is she supposed to know that this dinner meeting was crucial for him to attend. She may have thought it was just another business dinner and actually may have understood if he would just TALK to her about what's going on with him once in a while. 

Oh, and Toby doesn't disappoint talking to Kate about how much he wants to do her. We need that at least once an episode, right? 

Edited February 8, 2017 by bichonblitz

[ShadowFacts]

15 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Beth is controlling and bossy.  If they have an, "I call marriage," clause, surely it was intended for things like, "My mother just died, stay home from work with me."  Not a chess match.  It's great to attend your kids' events, but when they're in a whole lot of activities and you have a demanding job, you might just have to miss a few things. The kids should learn that having a cheering section isn't a guaranteed thing for every moment of life.

I mostly agree, but had a slightly different interpretation of why Beth "called marriage."  I don't think it was for the daughter's chess match, because those are eminently skip-able.  I thought Beth was focusing on the imminent departure of William and the memories being made for all of them but in this instance, especially the kids.  She was also concerned about Randall's apparent detachment.  So I didn't see it as her just putting on pressure to attend a kid's event, I thought she was trying to pull him back into preparing for William's death before it's too late. 

[Lady Calypso]

2 hours ago, llewis823 said:

I do like Rebecca but when you choose to have children, you can't be running off on tour during their formative years. For that matter, if you have a marriage, you can't be running off leaving your soul mate either. It's all about compromise. She is doing what she loves - music - and is getting paid to do it IN TOWN. Why is that not good enough for her? 

I don't know; I have a neighbour whose father works overseas for the most part, so his wife takes care of their two young children. But I have never considered that he loves his children less because of it. It's just part of his job, and he comes home every couple of months for various time periods and he's always active in their lives in that way. 

Sure, back in the 1990s, the only way Rebecca would get to keep in contact with her family is through phone calls and some visits. But I don't see Rebecca as someone who is running off while the kids are teenagers. I see her as someone who has worked very, very hard at caring for the kids for over a decade, who has always been the primary caretaker and has done a great job. She would only be doing this tour for a few weeks, I think. She's compromised a lot. I don't see anything wrong with her wanting to go on this tour for a little while. It's not like she's choosing to do it permanently. She's doing something that she loves and she wants to do. Plus, it's not like she's leaving the teens with nobody. Jack's around and he'd just have to pick up the slack for a little while. And I'm sure they'd work it out where if Jack couldn't handle it, then Rebecca would come home. 

I don't know; I just feel like Rebecca deserves to do something for herself. The kids are teenagers at this point, so they're not little kids who need both parents to take care of them full time. Plus, it'll most likely rake in some more money for the family, so it's not like it's just benefiting her. Rebecca is not wrong to want to do something for herself, something fun that she never got to do before. She still loves her kids and her husband as much as she did before the tour came up. It doesn't make her a bad person for me. 

[bichonblitz]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

One annoying thing for me.  The budget on this show must be ZERO because they're not even trying to pretend they're in NYC.  Subways looked like that that decades ago, show.  I guess no one knows how to Google, "New York City subways."

Yes, that clearly wasn't a NYC subway train. That looked like it was an above ground train, which if in NYC would take you to New Jersey, Long Island or somewhere in the tri'boro area. Since we saw Kevin last episode get out of a cab and walk up to what looked like a property in the city, where exactly was Sophie going? 

Edited February 8, 2017 by bichonblitz

[DoubleUTeeEff]

26 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

Quote

I like Horse Dick better than Toby.  I think maybe he was right when he said she was trying to be someone she isn't.  Maybe Kate just wants to eat donuts and have hot, spontaneous sex.  If she and Horse Dick looked like the two stars of "Shades of Gray," I'll bet it wouldn't all seem so icky.

That might be true for some, but it would still earn a big ick from me. And I have no problem at all with Kate actually wanting donuts and hot sex, I just want her to own it without some pushy, creepy guy telling her it's what she wants. And break up with Toby first.

Yes, exactly.  I think accepting that you are fat and choosing to stay that way AND wanting to lose weight and doing something about it are both valid choices. Kate has clearly chosen to do something about it, she went to the "fat camp" and is taking it seriously.  In fact, the very moment she is talking to Horse Dick, she is working on not eating in response to her fight with Toby but "sweating it out" instead.  Who is Horse Dick to come along and tell her to give up?  He's just some dude who happens to be in the same physical location as she is.  They don't have a relationship.  Shut up, Horse Dick and let Kate be Kate the way SHE has chosen to.  So rude and condescending to tell someone you don't even know how to live her life.