S01.E12: Mindy St. Clair / S01.E13: Michael's Gambit

[snarktini]

On 2/27/2017 at 8:50 AM, MDKNIGHT said:

I had my suspicions that this was the "bad place" from the beginning especially since I immediately remembered the Twilight Zone ep with the gangster who thinks he's in heaven which people have mentioned, but I was never sure.  Every time the show did something fishy that made me suspect more it could be discounted as either (1) the writer/s didn't know certain facts or (2) it is a comedy so exaggeration and things that couldn't be true are the norm.  As an example the people we now know were actors... The stories they told at the first party of why they got into the "good" place were ridiculous so that Eleanor would feel inferior and miserable.  The Indian guy said he had donated BOTH kidneys to a perfect stranger.  So I was thinking (1) either the writers don't know NOBODY donates both kidneys, no doctor would do it, and the recipient only needs ONE kidney so it is a pointless way to die or (2) the writers did know, that but because it was a comedy had a character actually do it.  So while I still thought it being hell MIGHT be a possibility I was never sure about it until the latest ep. 

BTW something that also made me wonder but may still be just a limitation of story telling and not deliberate is this.  What happens if you find your soulmate on earth and then one person dies first.  Don't you wait for your soulmate in heaven?  I found it suspicious that everybody got paired up after death.  We saw nobody either waiting for their soulmate or already reunited with them.  Also what were the chances that Chidi and real Eleanor or Tahanni and the monk would die at about the same time if they really were soulmates? But like I said it could be a story telling plot hole rather than a clue this set up was not legit.

I'll be tuning in next season.  In the mean time I chose to believe that Florence Nightingale DID get into the Good Place and Michael was only lying.  I'm hoping that our main characters' antics  leads to an afterlife restructuring.   Especially since Michael mentioned an "up there" or something like that that seemed to indicate there IS a Good Place but I'm not sure that we can be sure that there is one.  It is possible that there is ONLY hell. 

I didn't guess it was the bad place, but it was clear everything was not as it seemed. For me, it was the soulmates system that made zero sense. And the scoring system, too. But like you said it could have been just handwaved as exaggerated writing for comedy's sake. It feels so good to reveal these weren't just inconsistencies or lazy writing, all the "glitches" were actually in service of the plot. I'm impressed by how they built a scenario you could believe in while sowing the seeds of what was really going on.

Edited March 6, 2017 by snarktini

[jpollo02]

If Michael's flashback is to be believed, there really is some sort of points system that is used to determine who goes to the good vs. bad place, since his boss in the flashback mentions something about meeting with the "Director of Points Calculations."  But presumably the points allocations aren't as ludicrous as what we've seen.

[Affogato]

On ‎4‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 6:22 PM, jpollo02 said:

If Michael's flashback is to be believed, there really is some sort of points system that is used to determine who goes to the good vs. bad place, since his boss in the flashback mentions something about meeting with the "Director of Points Calculations."  But presumably the points allocations aren't as ludicrous as what we've seen.

It may be a nod to a lot of religious dogma not seeming to make sense but not needing to step on any religions toes to make that point.

[katalizt]

Just binged this; I had heard great reviews and now seeing so many nominations for it on the Previouslies made me finally watch it. Unfortunately I was already spoiled a while back that it wasn't really the Good Place, but I didn't know the details. I didn't figure out how the twist was going to work until I saw Michael write "The Good Place" on his blueprints in the flashbacks. And then I was still surprised as it was revealed that it was all for just Eleanor, Tahani, Chidi, and Jason. At that point I was still wondering "but where was the real Eleanor all this time?" Of course, then it's revealed she was in on it too.

So everything after Eleanor confesses is basically Michael improvising to keep up the charade. Which makes me think that Trevor and the Bad Place crew were in on it as well, since they brought Fake Real Eleanor on the train. 

[CherithCutestory]

I also just binged and what a great show. I knew the broad twist but it really didn't ruin anything.

Something I thought was interesting is the one Michael initially really seemed intent on torturing was Tahani. Eleanor was our POV so it sort of seemed all about her. But it wasn't. In the early episodes Michael really seemed to put the extra effort into getting to Tahani. Letting her see her points, throwing wrenches in her parties (like his retirement party), asking her to help be his assistant (so a task that wasn't just planning parties, although she shifts that to Eleanor), making sure she knew she didn't help the sink hole situation at all. He did it to Chibi too (with his thesis and new hobbies) but there were several episodes where he most seemed to be picking on Tahani, in retrospect.

I also wonder if Tahani was supposed to realize that she didn't belong there. But she never did. Until the end. It was her and Jason that Michael first went on and on about there being something wrong and out of place to. He had to know Jason is too oblivious to care. So, that had to be mostly targeted at her.

Really with Eleanor he did the big guilt trips of her messing up the universe. Knowing she always feels bad about being a dirtbag (we see that in her flashbacks) but never enough to change or even own up to it. He never intended to make her help the investigation (that was supposed to be Tahani.)  Mostly he seemed to genuinely like her more than any of them. Although since he his evil his seeming to like her more can cut either way...

At the end of the day, Eleanor is the only one who was consistently willing to sacrifice herself for everyone else from the moment she heard Shawn's message. And earlier when she confessed to help Chibi's paralyzing guilt. So, I have to think she deserves to be in the Bad Place less than any of them despite being a garbage person in real life. Chibi and Tahani definitely don't deserve it either. But neither were particularly eager to sacrifice themselves for everyone else either.  I know you can argue they shouldn't have to because they deserved to be there. But we know they didn't deserve to be in the Good Place and, in fact, weren't there. It never occurred to them that they weren't all that much more worthy than Eleanor. Which means Eleanor was also  the only one who never felt that she deserved to be there. She consistently thought she should be in a Medium place. Tahani and Chibi were shocked they didn't belong. And Jason still didn't get that he hadn't earned his place in heaven even though he knew he wasn't who they claimed.

I think Eleanor grew so quickly because she was the only one working with a truly realistic view of who she was. She didn't have a lot of self-delusions to knock down to get to the point of realizing she needs to be better.

Quote

 

If Michael's flashback is to be believed, there really is some sort of points system that is used to determine who goes to the good vs. bad place, since his boss in the flashback mentions something about meeting with the "Director of Points Calculations."  But presumably the points allocations aren't as ludicrous as what we've seen.

 

If we take the reveal at face value (which I don't think we should) the point system is even more insane than we initially thought. The only one of those four people who really deserves a spot in the Bad Place is serial arsonist and DJ Jason.

Like some others I think there is a bit more going on. But I do think Michael is "sincere" in his desire to torture all of them. I just think it's more like a purgatory concept. Pain and suffering but the chance of redemption.

I just refuse to believe a "God" like being at the center of this could create something as perfect as Janet but also be this cruel.

Edited August 29, 2017 by CherithCutestory

[topanga]

4 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

I also just binged and what a great show. I knew the broad twist but it really didn't ruin anything.

Something I thought was interesting is the one Michael initially really seemed intent on torturing was Tahani. Eleanor was our POV so it sort of seemed all about her. But it wasn't. In the early episodes Michael really seemed to put the extra effort into getting to Tahani. Letting her see her points, throwing wrenches in her parties (like his retirement party), asking her to help be his assistant (so a task that wasn't just planning parties, although she shifts that to Eleanor), making sure she knew she didn't help the sink hole situation at all. He did it to Chibi too (with his thesis and new hobbies) but there were several episodes where he most seemed to be picking on Tahani, in retrospect.

I also wonder if Tahani was supposed to realize that she didn't belong there. But she never did. Until the end. It was her and Jason that Michael first went on and on about there being something wrong and out of place to. He had to know Jason is too oblivious to care. So, that had to be mostly targeted at her.

Really with Eleanor he did the big guilt trips of her messing up the universe. Knowing she always feels bad about being a dirtbag (we see that in her flashbacks) but never enough to change or even own up to it. He never intended to make her help the investigation (that was supposed to be Tahani.)  Mostly he seemed to genuinely like her more than any of them. Although since he his evil his seeming to like her more can cut either way...

At the end of the day, Eleanor is the only one who was consistently willing to sacrifice herself for everyone else from the moment she heard Shawn's message. And earlier when she confessed to help Chibi's paralyzing guilt. So, I have to think she deserves to be in the Bad Place less than any of them despite being a garbage person in real life. Chibi and Tahani definitely don't deserve it either. But neither were particularly eager to sacrifice themselves for everyone else either.  She also never felt that she deserved to be there. She consistently thought she should be in a Medium place. Tahani and Chibi were shocked they didn't belong. And Jason still didn't get that he hadn't earned his place in heaven even though he knew he wasn't who they claimed.

I think Eleanor grew so quickly because she was the only one working with a truly realistic view of who she was. She didn't have a lot of self-delusions to knock down to get to the point of realizing she needs to be better.

If we take the reveal at face value (which I don't think we should) the point system is even more insane than we initially thought. The only one of those four people who really deserves a spot in the Bad Place is serial arsonist and DJ Jason.

Like some others I think there is a bit more going on. But I do think Michael is "sincere" in his desire to torture all of them. I just think it's more like a purgatory concept. Pain and suffering but the chance of redemption.

I just refuse to believe a "God" like being at the center of this could create something as perfect as Janet but also be this cruel.

Great analysis of the characters. But I also think that the criteria for determining who deserves to be in the Bad Place is ludicrous. According to Michael and the others, you're damned if you're 

--a selfish, mean person 

--a person who does good things but is motivated largely by a desire to prove her worth to cold, disapproving parents and the favored sister

--a person who generally doesn't harm others but whose own anxieties and probable personality disorder keeps him from being decisive. 

--a clueless, lazy guy whose intent to commit a crime led to his death.

 

On 4/22/2017 at 9:56 AM, Affogato said:

It may be a nod to a lot of religious dogma not seeming to make sense but not needing to step on any religions toes to make that point.

And that's one of the frustrating aspects of organized religion. You can do terrible things in life, but if you also do certain things that religious doctrine dictates, you're fine. 

Or in the spirit of the show, you can do great things in life for other people, but if you commit certain 'sins,' like bragging about being vegan, you might be out. 

I agree that The Good Place hilariously showed how random and senseless the 'points' system can be. 

[wilnil]

17 hours ago, topanga said:

But I also think that the criteria for determining who deserves to be in the Bad Place is ludicrous. According to Michael and the others, you're damned if you're 

--a selfish, mean person 

--a person who does good things but is motivated largely by a desire to prove her worth to cold, disapproving parents and the favored sister

--a person who generally doesn't harm others but whose own anxieties and probable personality disorder keeps him from being decisive. 

--a clueless, lazy guy whose intent to commit a crime led to his death.

My take on it (earlier in this thread) was that the thing they had in common was selfishness. It's obvious, of course, in Eleanor's and Jason's cases; but Tahani was only into philanthropy as a status game to ease her feelings of inferiority to her sister (even in the supposed "Good Place" she could never help bragging and name-dropping about every charity event she hosted), while Chidi kept trying to find the definitive "rules" for being good without ever learning how to see what his real-life actions might do to others (he intellectually agonized over the one friend's ugly boots without once doing the right thing in that situation).

We get childhood flashbacks for both Eleanor and Tahani explaining how they became the way they were; for Jason and Chidi, we're just left with the impression that one was too dumb for his own good and the other too smart. Either way, they're all self-indulgent, but they all sort of have "excuses" for being that way. So given that...  

22 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

Like some others I think there is a bit more going on. But I do think Michael is "sincere" in his desire to torture all of them. I just think it's more like a purgatory concept. Pain and suffering but the chance of redemption.

Yeah, I'm with those who think the ultimate point will be that you learn where you went wrong in a "Bad" Place and, by fixing yourself, earn your way into a Better Place. We never do definitively get told that the Selfish Four would have ever been turned over to the lava monsters for major physical torment in a Really Bad Place; the monsters may have been part of the system to get the attention of the hard cases -- say, the Hitlers -- of the afterlife. I also think the Architects (who clearly aren't perfectly good beings themselves) have things of their own to learn, and the Place system may have been set up for that purpose too. 

[Anela]

I started watching this last year, and then lost track of it after a few episodes. I started watching it again on Netflix, over the past week, while I was doing other things (like cooking, just now), and just finished it. I love it! I'm so glad they picked it up again.

[Anela]

I did wonder if they were being toyed with - as certain things happened, like the couple Michael asked to stay with Chidi and Eleanore, and when he asked Eleanore to help him figure things out.

I love Jason - I ended up liking Tahani, too. Their flaws became more apparent as the season went on.

i hadn't realized that we lose Michael. So it's a mostly new cast coming back? I think he was actually delighting in the human things he was doing. He said he wanted to be a part of things for a change. I thought. 

[shantown]

Were parts edited out of the episodes on Netflix? I could have sworn there was more to the scene where Eleanor explains how Michael tortured all of them, like throwing Chidi's book in the trash and taunting Tahani with seeing everyone's points - and those parts weren't there when I watched on Netflix. 

[wilnil]

51 minutes ago, shantown said:

Were parts edited out of the episodes on Netflix?

It's possible. I've been rewatching via Comcast On Demand, which has original (i.e., as originally broadcast on NBC) and "extended cut" (including extra scenes) versions of each episode posted. NBC might have supplied Netflix with the broadcast edits, while you might have first seen an extended version when the episode was new.

[AnnieBeez]

On 9/4/2017 at 10:22 PM, Anela said:

[snip]

i hadn't realized that we lose Michael. So it's a mostly new cast coming back? I think he was actually delighting in the human things he was doing. He said he wanted to be a part of things for a change. I thought. 

We lose Michael?! Why? 

[Anela]

7 minutes ago, PuhLeeze said:

We lose Michael?! Why? 

Someone here said that we do, but I don't think that's the case. It looks like he's there for season two. :)

[AnnieBeez]

2 hours ago, Anela said:

Someone here said that we do, but I don't think that's the case. It looks like he's there for season two. :)

Whew. Yeah, I went looking after reading that. I convinced two people to watch, and now they're proselytizing. It was hard not to say anything about the last episode. I hope Season 2 doesn't disappoint. 

[Fukui San]

I've been binge-catching up on the first season this past week, and I really like the season and the review, except that I wish that it wasn't just these four characters that are being punished. Michael could have easily said that half of the town were real people being punished as well, each assigned into configurations that were designed to make them miserable. I could easily believe that side characters like angry chef, Asian lady who fell into turkey carcass, guy who fell into sinkhole, and other Asian lady whose dog got kicked into the sun are also secretly miserable.

I know that the premise is pure fantasy, but it seems economically unfeasible to devote so much, uh, demonpower and resources to punish just four people. I certainly would demand that they be able to take more people if I were in charge of hell, which is a job I'd gladly take on.

[RainbowBrite]

I re-watched Season 1 this week, and now knowing the "big twist", I can't believe I didn't realize it sooner. Michael is horrible to the main four. He rarely says a positive thing to any of them and he constantly puts them in uncomfortable positions. He's barely discreet about it. So well done!

[Danny Franks]

I've just binged the whole of this first season, after hearing so many good things about it, and I have to say that all those compliments were spot on.

I knew there was a twist coming,  but didn't know for sure what it was. It was well executed, but I can't say I'm particularly happy that Michael is actually a bad guy. I was really enjoying his wide-eyed, credulous explorations of human nature (particularly his wonderfully accurate observation about frozen yoghurt instead of ice cream: "humans making something a little worse, just so they can have more of it").

Kristin Bell has been very strong as the lead, and a lot of the success or failure of this show was on her shoulders. She's so charismatic, as an asshole and as a plucky heroine, and it'll be interesting to see how she does with this sort reset of her character.

I really, really love Tahani. Jameela Jamil plays her with so much warmth and joy, and her deadpan line readings are fantastic. As are the gags about her height. And of course Eleanor is legit into her. Who wouldn't be?

Chidi is also so much fun, in his own, rigid way. Gags at the expense of a stuffy, intellectual but well-meaning character usually work, and William Jackson Harper brings real integrity and humanity to a role that could easily be a bit dry.

Again, it will be interesting to see how she, Chidi and Jason are coping with the reset, and whether they will quickly slide back into the same dynamics when they all meet again. It's difficult to know what to expect, or even what to want. Shows often fall into a comfortable groove, and fans like to sit in it with them. Change is disconcerting. 

At least Janet is a constant... sort of. Being 'murdered' and rebooting is a slick way of throwing a bit of slapstick comedy in, and of setting up some new inconvenience for the characters.

So, time to start season two, I guess. 

[dusang]

I also just binged the entire first season on Netflix -- I love it!!  I'm already into a rewatch to see the hints of the big twist.

I lucked into seeing the Gag Reel during the brief period it was illegally uploaded to YouTube (sorry, NBC Universal caught it and it's gone now) but I have to say that Manny Jacinto is an underappreciated genius as Jianyu/Jason -- he had some amazing ad-lib/random takes.  Like a series of possible causes of his death ("I'm from Florida so I imagine an escaped zoo animal rampaged through the city?" / "... the alligator in my bathtub got a taste for human blood.")

Also, the fact that Jason is Filipino but everyone thinks that he's the Taiwanese Jianyu -- heaven is racist! (As he pointed out in episode 4.)

Love it!

[LisaM]

I just binged the first season on Netflix and wow....I knew that there was some sort of twist coming but couldn't imaging this one. So well done. 

Looking forward to Season 2. I hope that they can maintain the quality. Kristen Bell is marvelous. 

[VCRTracking]

Also just now binging it on Netflix and am currently midway through season 2 and will be caught up on the current season soon. Even though I'm a big Kristen Bell and Ted Danson fan and love Mike Schur's other shows(The Office, Parks and Rec, B99) and heard all the acclaim I was just too busy to watch until recently.  Unfortunately I was also spoiled on the twist way months before but I still got to have other surprises like Jason not being a Buddhist monk and his romance with Janet. 

Michael's evil laugh after Eleanor realizes the truth is the second most horrific reveal of a beloved 80s TV icon turning out to be a monster!

[cpcathy]

What's the first??

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, cpcathy said:

What's the first??

It's a real life one. Think about it.

Okay to be honest, it wasn't that I wasn't too busy to watch the show, it's just the premise kept me away because the thought of any afterlife kind of freaks me out. Since I was a kid even heaven because anything eternal or infinite was too much. I had an existential crisis like Michael but when I was like ten! Anyway it wasn't until I accidentally got spoiled on the twist that I reconsidered and wanted to see where it was going to go!

[sjankis630]

I was worried for the show on where they were going to be headed after the twist but they have delivered so far. I am assuming this show is not a powerhouse ratings wise because it would be interesting to see what happens if one or more of the stars left. 

[John Potts]

Clearly, Michael Schur is a fan of Jean Paul Satre ("Hell is other people" from his play "No Exit" (Huis Clos)). Maybe he should claim a writing credit (I mean, if he wasn't dead)? And Michael seems to have read Terry Pratchett's Faust Eric, where the demon running Hell (Astfgl) realises that psychological torture is more effective than physical tortures (which, we are told, are completely ineffective, but demons are traditionalists, so keep doing it).

OTOH, by wiping everyone's memories, they've more or less gone with the "It was all a dream!" ending. The trouble is, nothing can be relied on, as any question can be answered by, "No, that was all part of the deception." I mean, I liked the series, but it seems like it was designed to be one of those shows that is "one and done" - but TV Production means we HAVE to have a second (and a third) season that I can't see where it has to go. But I guess I'll see.

OK, I was spoilt on the revelation at the end, but I have a problem with the idea from a philiosophical viewpoint. Supposedly, Tahani was sent to the bad place, because raising $10m (I forget the figure) for charity might be considered "good" but she goes to the Bad Place because her motivations were bad. But Chidi went to the Bad Place because while his intentions were good, his indecisiveness meant that his good intentions never had any good effect. So - is it intentions or outcomes that are important? Particularly as Chidi DID succeed in improving Eleanor (and to a lesser extent, Jianyu/Jason) in the time they were together, so he can't be that ineffective (Of course, there's also the possibility that there is no Good Place at all and that everyone goes to the Bad Place, which is entirely designed for the benefit of the demons like Michael - or whatever they call ).

Liked that "Fake Eleanor" was real while "Real Eleanor" was fake!

On ‎20‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 5:52 AM, AuntTora said:

He's from Florida? Yup, Bad Place.

Loved that! (Sorry, Floridians!)

On ‎20‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 3:51 PM, withanaich said:

I would have written something more vague like "Eleanor - Find Chidi. You can only trust him, Jianyu, Tahani, and Janet." But Eleanor didn't know how much time she had (even if we did because it's TV), so she had to quickly think of something that would circumvent Michael's plan

Unless they don't keep the same names (they have amnesia, after all, and Michael may convince them to call themselves something else - we're still calling Jason "Jianyu", after all). Or there are other people given those names to cause confusion. And it's easy when you're not in the moment (or know how much time you have) to think what's the best message to write.

On ‎20‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 8:26 PM, Traveller519 said:

the magazine Eleanor reaches for exactly what we were told "Top 25 Baby Plastic Surgery Fails" Along with all sorts of other things on babies "When is starting Baby Botox too late" but the magazine beside it was "Socialite Life" featuring Tahani on the cover with the subtitle "Not just Jamilah's sister" I loved that set up.

I saw the picture of Tahani on the cover but missed the rest of it!

On ‎20‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 8:53 PM, Traveller519 said:

I'm guessing the typical place on the female body one would have sex wasn't available for Janet, and maybe some other locations lacked normal function

Yeah, but she does have a mouth, which allows certain... possibilities.

On ‎21‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 1:10 PM, AllyB said:

If Eleanor had picked the things she wanted in her medium place she's probably have asked for Netflix/Prime/Hulu, etc, a good kindle, and a laptop/tablet for internet browsing. Then Trevor would probably have region locked her streaming services to the Swedish package so she'd have had to read subtitles and have a very limited selection of box sets and movies.

I'm glad you don't get to design afterlives (I assume...)!

[cpcathy]

I have the season 1 DVDs, and Michael Schur provides commentary on this episode, and since he directed it, it's pretty interesting. He treated the final scenes like a baseball game, positioning the actors as being on first base, second base, etc. He then made sure that a clown painting or clown was in the background of each character, to remind us that each character was being played a fool.

[ByTor]

4 hours ago, John Potts said:

On 1/21/2017 at 8:10 AM, AllyB said:

If Eleanor had picked the things she wanted in her medium place she's probably have asked for Netflix/Prime/Hulu, etc, a good kindle, and a laptop/tablet for internet browsing. Then Trevor would probably have region locked her streaming services to the Swedish package so she'd have had to read subtitles and have a very limited selection of box sets and movies.

I'm glad you don't get to design afterlives (I assume...)!

LOL! TBH I'd rather be in the Bad Place with frozen yogurt and other people getting on my nerves instead of this...or instead of warm beer and a jukebox with nothing but the live versions of Eagles songs.  And I don't see how live versions make it worse...it's The Eagles (although admittedly I like Victim of Love a lot).

[possibilities]

On 2/1/2019 at 11:51 AM, John Potts said:

So - is it intentions or outcomes that are important?

It's both.

[azshadowwalker]

On 2/1/2019 at 2:22 PM, ByTor said:

 And I don't see how live versions make it worse...it's The Eagles (although admittedly I like Victim of Love a lot).

Live versions are usually messier, both musically and lyrically. If I have the choice between studio and live, I almost always want the studio version. It's what most people are used to. 

[aradia22]

The world building on this show is so exciting. I love that Mindy's experience of the afterlife is not this sterile, neutral space but a weird mix of the Good Place and the Bad Place. Every song ever sung... by the Eagles. *shudders*

Imagining everyone trying to channel Kristen Stewart to speak in that emotionless monotone made it so much funnier.

I'm surprised Mindy was happy to let three strangers chill in her house.

Eleanor's largest negative point values were hilarious.

Do people get soulmates in the Bad Place?

Whoa. That music cue + Ted Danson's evil laugh. He really is a brilliant actor. Like, he always has Sam Malone energy in there but as soon as he laughed it really came out.

I was prepared to be all mad about real Eleanor wanting to go to the Bad Place because of romantic issues but then it turns out her name is Vicky and she was in on it so whew!

I get that this was a test case but it seems like an awful lot of work to create a Truman Show for 4 people. Glad Shawn thinks so too.

[aradia22]

Quote

Chidi wasn't a doer, he was a sayer. Telling people about morality more than living it. And Tahani only really showed her nice side when Eleanor extended herself and made the right gestures to her.

I do feel like they still weren't bad enough to be in the Bad Place. But I guess they had to be believable as people who would have been sent to the Good Place. And I'm assuming they didn't want to choose people who had been bad people but turned their lives around because that would imply that there's no forgiveness or rehabilitation when you atone for your misdeeds. That would have been a much darker show. Like, if one of the residents of the fake Good Place had instead been a criminal who had served his prison time and then worked on charitable causes and advocacy but it didn't matter. Or if it had been an alcoholic and neglectful parent who lost custody and then spent his life as a public servant but still got sent to the fake Good Place because of the way he failed his child. 

[possibilities]

I think they have set it up that you can't erase any of your minus points via forgiveness. You just have to live long enough to do enough good to even the equation and then some, to wind up in the plus column.

I'm not advocating this as the correct system, but I do think that's how the show's world has it set up.

[Loandbehold]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

I think they have set it up that you can't erase any of your minus points via forgiveness. You just have to live long enough to do enough good to even the equation and then some, to wind up in the plus column.

Here's a question - do you get points if you forgive someone else for their transgression? After all, that act might make the other person feel better and they do something good as a result. I don't believe we've seen a point value attached to that. And, if so, does your point total increase the worse the offense? Like if someone steps on your toe, forgiving them gives you 1.3 points. Forgiving someone for stealing your parking spot when you're running late for an important event gets you 137.5 points. Forgiving genocide nets you 62,539.45 points. 

[aradia22]

Quote

I think they have set it up that you can't erase any of your minus points via forgiveness. You just have to live long enough to do enough good to even the equation and then some, to wind up in the plus column.

I'm not advocating this as the correct system, but I do think that's how the show's world has it set up.

Sorry, I didn't mean that it mattered if anyone in their lives had forgiven them or accepted that atonement but that the universe believed in redemption. Or, in other words, I think a darker version of this show would include people who had very much done bad things but who had then spent time doing good things for mostly unselfish reasons, yet it wasn't enough to undo those negative points. What we have instead in Chidi and Tahani is two characters who weren't great but weren't that terrible falling slightly into the negative.

One thing that is curious is that Shawn is Michael's boss but now we have reason to question whether he's actually the ultimate judge he claims to be since we know that was all a construct. Hmn...

[Dobian]

Just binge watched the first season.  Show has been on my to-do list for a long time.  Much better than I expected, not sure what I was expecting.  The reveal at the end was great with regard to Chidi especially, because throughout the first season they showed how completely annoying he is in every scenario, then having three different women fall in love with him despite the fact he generates zero chemistry with every one of them!  Going to power through season 2 now.  Great job with the world building, Jason cracks me up with his numbskullery, Janet with her idiosyncrasies.  I hope the memory wipe means Eleanor will revert back to Bad Eleanor in season 2.  Look forward to seeing Michael's real personality for a full season.  Show is kind of like Kimmie Schmidt Meets The Prisoner.