S03.E06: Episode 6

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

Noah's unexplained absence sends Helen on a journey of increasingly troublesome discoveries. Meanwhile, Noah is compelled to return to a place he's spent his life trying to escape and attempts to repair his relationship with Martin before it's too late.

[Primetimer]

'This is supposed to be a happy occasion, and as usual, Noah Solloway is ruining it,' declares Bruce Butler, who could be referring to dinners, homecomings, and furtive snoggings with Max and still be accurate.

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[CleoCaesar]

So now Helen cheated on Vic and even Max cheated on his fiancée. At this point I think the writers are trolling us. It's too ridiculous at this point.

[Muffyn]

I enjoyed Nina telling off Helen.  While I like Helen, she does need a dose of get the fuck over yourself/Noah. 

The one advantage in so many people talking about Noah this episode was the number of them that seemed to believe he is awful -  his ex in-laws, Martin, even Madame Professor Eau So Franch had enough of his garbage.  The one thing that brings people together in this now terrible show is their hatred of Noah Solloway. 

If only Noah stuck with his high school persona and "never talked to girls" we could have skipped this entire series. 

[Miss Patterson]

There are two people left on this show that I like, and they are Nina and Vik (is that how he spells his name?)  And maybe Oscar, who seems to have turned nicer since he had a baby. 

Why do I bother watching this every week? The plotline just aggravates me, and Alison wasn't even on tonight for me to hate. 

Is it just me, or does this show now totally suck? 

[MinDC76]

I really enjoyed this episode.  It was actually the first time I liked an episode this season.  Right, wrong, or indifferent, I truly believe that Helen was just young and in love, and not that she is some sinister, selfish, narcissist for not noticing how f'd up Noah was.  She hadn't grieved over the loss of a parent before.  She knew he was grieving, but was probably in the throes of "love" endorphins.  Her vision was clouded.  That happens.

If Nina thinks that her brother just used Helen and never really loved her for 20+ years, then that would make him a monster.  If Nina can excuse that and say that there is a possibility that Helen didn't notice that he was out to use her, then that makes her a complete shit herself. 

Edited January 4, 2017 by MinDC76

[chick binewski]

I like that this episode seemed more full than the previous ones we've seen this season. I did not like that Maura Tierney seemed to have been handed Alison's script this week. And since now we're supposed to know Noah has Mental Health Issues I wish they'd play the opiate problem a little less after-school special. Passing out, lack of clarity, abuse (over-medicating)  all make sense - especially with booze and a fragile state of mind in the mix. But Noah hasn't been taking Vicodin long enough for some of the effects they're showing (not that I'm clear on anything the writers are trying to say this season).      

[Higgs]

From the NYTimes review:

It’s interesting in this regard to listen to this podcast interview with Sarah Treem, the series’s showrunner. She talks about how writers on the show’s staff focus on certain characters, and mentions that Anya Epstein (who has worked on “Homicide: Life on the Street,” “In Treatment” and the underrated “Commander in Chief”) supplies much of the voice of Helen. So while we rightly sing the praises of Maura Tierney’s performance in the role, we should also give some credit to Ms. Epstein.

[Bebecat]

Yes, the pill stuff is annoying. I take pain meds for chronic pain and I hate it when meds are used just for plotlines. It is a nightmare getting my medications as it is...

Helen was an ass this whole epiosde. No excuse for sleeping with Max, except childish jealousy and possesion issues, but she is a middle-aged woman with four kids and has treated him like a doormat for decades. That was awful. She couldn't even say one positive thing about his wedding, etc. I know she has reasons to be a mess but come on. No right to mess with lives of others.

Who did Noah see in the lake, if he did?

[RedheadZombie]

1 hour ago, chick binewski said:

I like that this episode seemed more full than the previous ones we've seen this season. I did not like that Maura Tierney seemed to have been handed Alison's script this week. And since now we're supposed to know Noah has Mental Health Issues I wish they'd play the opiate problem a little less after-school special. Passing out, lack of clarity, abuse (over-medicating)  all make sense - especially with booze and a fragile state of mind in the mix. But Noah hasn't been taking Vicodin long enough for some of the effects they're showing (not that I'm clear on anything the writers are trying to say this season).      

I don't think we're too sure how long Noah's been taking Vicodin.  He's been taking pills since the season started and referred to them as muscle relaxants.  But he tried telling Alison his post-op Vicodin was a muscle relaxant, too.  

39 minutes ago, Bebecat said:

Yes, the pill stuff is annoying. I take pain meds for chronic pain and I hate it when meds are used just for plotlines. It is a nightmare getting my medications as it is...

Helen was an ass this whole epiosde. No excuse for sleeping with Max, except childish jealousy and possesion issues, but she is a middle-aged woman with four kids and has treated him like a doormat for decades. That was awful. She couldn't even say one positive thing about his wedding, etc. I know she has reasons to be a mess but come on. No right to mess with lives of others.

Who did Noah see in the lake, if he did?

I'm thinking it's a young Gunther in the lake.  It seems too late to add another character, but maybe someone else committed suicide in that lake.   Or maybe Gunther attempted to and that trauma keeps Noah from remembering him.  The two high school buddies seemed to remember his name right away.  It's super odd that Gunther seems to have been so transfixed with jealousy over high school Noah.  They didn't even attend the same school. 

[RedheadZombie]

1 hour ago, MinDC76 said:

I really enjoyed this episode.  It was actually the first time I liked an episode this season.  Right, wrong, or indifferent, I truly believe that Helen was just young and in love, and not that she is some sinister, selfish, narcissist for not noticing how f'd up Noah was.  She was hadn't grieved for a parent before.  She knew he was grieving, but was probably in the throes of "love" endorphins.  Her vision was clouded.  That happens.

If Nina thinks that her brother just used Helen and never really loved her for 20+ years, then that would make him a monster.  If Nina can excuse that and say that there is a possibility that Helen didn't notice that he was out to use her, then that makes her a complete shit herself. 

I don't know.  I can see Helen being spoiled and selfish.  Max knew how much Noah was suffering, and he's about as deep as a puddle.  I don't think Helen is sinister, but she's shown her ass frequently in her own POVs.  Tonight she cheated on her live in boyfriend, and had no concern about Max's fiancé.  She's a cheater just like all of them.  None of the four mains can claim fidelity. 

1 hour ago, chick binewski said:

I like that this episode seemed more full than the previous ones we've seen this season. I did not like that Maura Tierney seemed to have been handed Alison's script this week. And since now we're supposed to know Noah has Mental Health Issues I wish they'd play the opiate problem a little less after-school special. Passing out, lack of clarity, abuse (over-medicating)  all make sense - especially with booze and a fragile state of mind in the mix. But Noah hasn't been taking Vicodin long enough for some of the effects they're showing (not that I'm clear on anything the writers are trying to say this season).      

Sorry to quote the same post twice.  But why would Helen need Alison's script to cheat?  I'm not sure why Alison is always seen as the super-slut, while Helen has boundaries and good taste.   Alison has slept with three men  - Cole, Noah, and a ONS with Oscar.  Helen has been with Noah, Max, and Vik.   And poor ole Cole has slept with three women - Alison, the lady who picked him up in the cab, and Luisa.  Yet of these three, only one is accused of being a sex addict with no boundaries, and whose only means of communicating is through her vagina. 

[Armchair Critic]

It has gotten so bad that Helen's parents were the highlight of the show for me!

[chocolatine]

19 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I'm thinking it's a young Gunther in the lake.

I thought it was a young Noah. There was a glimpse of a photo of teenage Noah and his mother in the lake house, and boy in the picture looked a lot like a boy in the lake. Maybe Noah had suicidal thoughts after he helped his mother commit suicide?

2 hours ago, MinDC76 said:

If Nina thinks that her brother just used Helen and never really loved her for 20+ years, then that would make him a monster.  If Nina can excuse that and say that there is a possibility that Helen didn't notice that he was out to use her, then that makes her a complete shit herself. 

I'm not saying that Nina was 100% justified to lay it all on Helen like that, but Helen does tend to be self-absorbed at times (cf her encounter with Max), and it sounded like Nina suspects (or maybe Noah has even told her) that Helen drove the car and Noah took the fall for her.

Poor Eau So Franch, Noah's magic anaconda don't want none with her. For the second time.

Martin sucks. I can't see him lasting more than two minutes in the army.

Bruce only went back to Margaret because his mistress left him; it's only a matter of time before he finds a new one.

2 hours ago, Miss Patterson said:

Vik (is that how he spells his name?)

IMDB says it's "Vic", but Whitney called him "Vikram" a few episodes ago, so I assumed it was "Vik" as well.

[scrb]

I LOVE it when Helen's parents are on, especially the prick father.

Helen derides them especially her mother  for taking them back and them knowing each other the best.  She thinks mother is pathetic.

Yet, she is so obviously still carrying the torch for Noah, especially after he made it clear he didn't want anything to do with her.

She is  more like her mother than she recognizes or is willing to admit.

 

In the first season, she chose Noah because she took it for granted that he was so devoted to her.  And the money kept him as her puppet through their marriage until that fateful day at the Lobster Roll.

But now, Nina says Noah was using her to get out of smalltownsville, taking advantage of Helen wanting to rescue a wounded boy getting over a huge loss in his life -- this backstory seems bolted on, like something they added much later.

 

If Max or Vic wants Helen to want them, at least for a quickie, pretend they are no longer interested in her.  Has worked for Noah and worked for Max this ep, though he learned right away that he wasn't unavailable enough for Helen.

[nara]

I believe this is the first time they confirmed that Noah euthanized his mother, right?  I cannot remember what I guessed vs. what they have previously told us.  I really enjoyed the Nina-Helen conversation (Jennifer Esposito is underrated IMO) but I wish she had told Helen the truth about Noah and his mother.  Clearly, Noah volunteered the guilty plea out of guilt for killing his mother.  I think it would be good for Helen to understand that and not continue to think he did it out of love/guilt/loyalty towards her.

9 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I'm thinking it's a young Gunther in the lake.  It seems too late to add another character, but maybe someone else committed suicide in that lake.   Or maybe Gunther attempted to and that trauma keeps Noah from remembering him.  The two high school buddies seemed to remember his name right away.  It's super odd that Gunther seems to have been so transfixed with jealousy over high school Noah.  They didn't even attend the same school. 

I had assumed it was Noah, but Gunther makes sense too.

If it's Noah, it's about how self-destructive Noah is.  It's also a nice throwback to the very first episode in which Martin faked a suicide to get out of going to Helen's parents' house for the summer.

If it's Gunther, I wonder if Gunther killed himself as a teen after losing to Noah.  In that case, the prison guard is a manifestation/halucination of Noah's long-delayed "guilt" related to that incident.  

Just in the last episode's forum, I was wishing for the return of Max.  Ask, and ye shall receive!  I actually felt a little sorry for him.  He's trying to settle down and Helen comes around, clearly looking for a booty call, and he can't resist the lure of someone he's loved for 25+ years.  Of course, it was awful that he cheated on his fiance, but I put more blame on Helen in this case.  I think she's the Noah (self-destructive, delusional, narcissist) of this season.  This is her Descent.  Maybe it can inspire Noah's next book? ;) 

I don't blame Helen for her distrust of her parents' reunion, but she needs to grow up and fake it!  I can see where the kids (especially Whitney and Martin) get their snarky, sulky behavior.  Vik is now too good for her.  

I do think Helen's self-destructive behavior is a result of her guilt about letting Noah take the blame for Scotty's death--just like Noah's behavior is a result of his guilt.  In that way, they are exactly alike!

[poopchute]

The credits listed a "young Noah" so that's who was in the lake, right? 

[Sheenieb]

Quote

I enjoyed Nina telling off Helen.  While I like Helen, she does need a dose of get the fuck over yourself/Noah. 

Eh, I have mixed feelings about this. Helen is not Noah's therapist. He should've been the one to communicate his feelings. I'm not saying that Helen can't be self-absorbed. Her fling with Max was an anvil in regards to that, but if Noah chose not to confide in her about what was going on in his life, or, let her know bits and pieces of what was happening, then that isn't on Helen.

Plus, Nina did that thing I hate. She danced around the subject of Noah and his father instead of being direct. If you're going to tell the story, tell the story. Don't cop out with "it isn't my place." Why bring it up, then?

So Martin is a super senior. Still hate him and the rest of those kids. The showrunners really went too far with them.

[LakeGal]

I found myself yelling "run Vic run" at the screen.  He is too good for Helen.  She is self destructing.  Too bad she is taking others down with her.  She couldn't stand that Max might be moving away from her.  I still expect Helen to explode at some point and admit she was driving the car.  She will probably be drunk when it happens. 

[grommit2]

12 hours ago, Bebecat said:

Yes, the pill stuff is annoying. I take pain meds for chronic pain and I hate it when meds are used just for plotlines. It is a nightmare getting my medications as it is...

Helen was an ass this whole epiosde. No excuse for sleeping with Max, except childish jealousy and possesion issues, but she is a middle-aged woman with four kids and has treated him like a doormat for decades. That was awful. She couldn't even say one positive thing about his wedding, etc. I know she has reasons to be a mess but come on. No right to mess with lives of others.

Who did Noah see in the lake, if he did?

I believe Noah saw himself as a high school/college kid. 

[scrb]

Yeah that's the other thing, a 19-year old senior who's on the verge of flunking out again.

And joining the army?

For all the money and privilege this family has had, Whitney bails on college and takes up with an older artist who photographs genitals and Martin is going to drop out and join the army?

That's the biggest crisis for a white, upper middle-class family!  Not these little tawdry affairs and Noah imagining a prison guard stalking him.

[Sienna]

9 hours ago, scrb said:

In the first season, she chose Noah because she took it for granted that he was so devoted to her.  And the money kept him as her puppet through their marriage until that fateful day at the Lobster Roll.

But now, Nina says Noah was using her to get out of smalltownsville, taking advantage of Helen wanting to rescue a wounded boy getting over a huge loss in his life -- this backstory seems bolted on, like something they added much later.

 

 

It makes sense to me. Back in season one, Noah told someone (Alison? Or maybe the detective?) that he was attracted to Helen because she was "rich, and kinda artsy" and it was what he aspired to be.  In another scene, Helen yells at him during a fight, something to the effect of "You wanted out, you wanted a better life, and I gave you that life".

Helen did say she thought that by marrying the shy, introverted boy, she would get a loyal, devoted husband and everyone would ultimately envy her and her wise choice, she also said she was desperately afraid of marrying a man like her father. I suspect that, despite all of that, they had real affection for each other at the beginning, and Helen, like a lot of women, was probably drawn to vulnerability, and a desire to nurture and/or "fix" a wounded guy.

Ultimately, I think they used each other. Noah wanted economic security, and probably a sense of being "taken care of" emotionally, because he missed out on some of that from his mom. Helen wanted emotional security,  and probably a certain amount of control (she obviously called a lot of the shots, and could do so because it was her parents paying for most of their lifestyle). In that respect, they were perfect for each other, until they weren't anymore.

[RedheadZombie]

I missed where the credits mentioned young Noah.  Maybe the credits shouldn't spoil the plot.  

[scrb]

40 minutes ago, Sienna said:

 

It makes sense to me. Back in season one, Noah told someone (Alison? Or maybe the detective?) that he was attracted to Helen because she was "rich, and kinda artsy" and it was what he aspired to be.  In another scene, Helen yells at him during a fight, something to the effect of "You wanted out, you wanted a better life, and I gave you that life".

Helen did say she thought that by marrying the shy, introverted boy, she would get a loyal, devoted husband and everyone would ultimately envy her and her wise choice, she also said she was desperately afraid of marrying a man like her father. I suspect that, despite all of that, they had real affection for each other at the beginning, and Helen, like a lot of women, was probably drawn to vulnerability, and a desire to nurture and/or "fix" a wounded guy.

Ultimately, I think they used each other. Noah wanted economic security, and probably a sense of being "taken care of" emotionally, because he missed out on some of that from his mom. Helen wanted emotional security,  and probably a certain amount of control (she obviously called a lot of the shots, and could do so because it was her parents paying for most of their lifestyle). In that respect, they were perfect for each other, until they weren't anymore.

Well maybe it's a thing in his home town.

The way that girl went up to Martin, asking him if he wanted to go to the party with her.  Maybe she see's a solution to her college tuition worries.

Helen no longer seems to be into it with Vic, now that he's sleeping upstairs and is so eager to please mom and dad.  George Constanza wanted to get the upper-hand in the relationship he had with a beautiful cellist.

So here are the ways Vic can get some hand in his relationship with Helen.

1.  Get rid of the cactus.

2.  The next time Martin says "fuck off" to him, give him the back of your hand across his mouth.  That will probably get her hot and bothered right away but don't do it just for the relationship but because it's Martin.

3.  Casually mention that he's meeting some old girlfriends or how much of a MILF the mother of one of his patients is.

4.  Badmouth her parents.  Repeatedly.

5.  Get the gag that Juliette wanted Noah to tie her up with and use it on Helen.

[RedheadZombie]

It means very little to me that Helen's parents hate Noah.  They hated Noah when he was still the long-time faithful husband of Helen, and good father to their four children.  They hated him because they thought he was beneath them, and didn't respect that he was simply a teacher - and a teacher at a public school - what a nothing. 

These are the people who raised a child who hates them, and tolerates them by counting the days until they drop dead and she inherits their money.  Helen's father is garbage from beginning to end.  I've despised Helen's mother since she attempted to bribe an emaciated Whitney to lose weight.  When I really get sick of Helen, I try to remember the non-nurturing, toxic, elitist household she grew up in.  Her parent's pitted her against each other.  And I appreciate that, although I think Helen is a shitty parent in many ways, she is loving and doesn't overtly manipulate the children.  Although she has let her children hate and refuse to see Noah because of a crime she committed.  And the way she attests his innocence to her children really grates.  It reminds me of Dimmesdale from The Scarlet Letter.   While proclaiming Noah's innocence, while not admitting the details, she's making herself look a martyr.  Devoted Helen who won't give up on protecting her ex.

Nina likes to bust Noah's chops, and I'm willing to believe a lot of her opinion about Helen.  Since it's Helen's POV, I think it was shaded by Helen's fear or even guilt that what Nina said could be true.  It bothered her enough to seek out Max. 

It's so interesting to me that Alison's and Noah's POVs are never to be believed, manipulative, and playing the victim.  Whereas Helen's and Poor Old Cole's are "brave" to show negativity, or excused away by the affair.  We've known since the beginning that Alison has been suffering a mental illness, and now we see that Noah's entire adult life has been plagued by traumas he's experienced.  Yet (at least here) viewer opinion has not changed.  It speaks to the bigger picture, IMO, of the continued misunderstanding and lack of acceptance of mental illness.  Alison experiences isolation, paranoia, and hallucinations, and has the good sense to hand over her daughter to her father and seek psychological help.  Yet Cole and Luisa call her evil for dropping her off at night!  Well, what the fuck, Cole, apparently you didn't even know your daughter was ill.  And it's perfectly fine that neither Cole nor Luisa were checking in with the mother of Cole's child - the child that Cole deserved to have!  And I don't believe it's legal that they had Alison sign over custody while she was in a psychiatric hospital.  If a psychiatrist finds her stable and decisional, then she should be able to get her rights back. 

I hate that they've glossed over what happened with Alison for the rest of the six months.  And I hate that they've glossed over Luisa's undocumented status.  In my state you can't even get a driver's license without a million documents proving your citizenship, but you can certainly get medical care in any hospital - regardless of your status - and you certainly don't become infertile from a back alley botched medical procedure.  And I don't remember if it was this episode, but I really hated Luisa throwing it in Cole's face that she is in this town and around his family.  As if Cole went to Ecuador and abducted her, forcing her to live in Montauk.  They live in the town in which they met, and I thought that Luisa's mother worked for the rich lady Cole was banging, so she isn't without family.  And don't get me started on Luisa, substitute mother for six months, countermanding Cole's decisions regarding Joanie.  My God, he looks so whipped.  He sneaks behind her back to do what he wants regarding his own daughter, and his daughter's mother.  It makes Luisa look like a villain.  And since I'm adopted, I don't believe in the magic of a biological link, or that Luisa's six months with Joanie is meaningless.  It's the writing that's making me hate her.

When you factor in Alison's mental illness leading to her leaving, and the fact that they obviously knew she was in the hospital, it makes the whole "six month disappearance" ridiculous.  We know she was gone for a total of six months.  At least part of it was in the psych hospital.  Which means she didn't disappear with no word for that time.  She brought Joanie to them, versus abandoning her alone which you would think from their reaction, and she clearly told them she was going to a hospital, and where the hospital was.  And Cole and Luisa are written as either completely misunderstanding mental illness, or refusing to admit it exists, and that Alison was suffering from it.  So her behavior was simply irresponsible, incompetent mothering,  lack of concern for Joanie, and lack of caring that Cole, you know Joanie's father, was inconvenienced by being saddled with his child for six months.

2 hours ago, scrb said:

Well maybe it's a thing in his home town.

The way that girl went up to Martin, asking him if he wanted to go to the party with her.  Maybe she see's a solution to her college tuition worries.

Helen no longer seems to be into it with Vic, now that he's sleeping upstairs and is so eager to please mom and dad.  George Constanza wanted to get the upper-hand in the relationship he had with a beautiful cellist.

So here are the ways Vic can get some hand in his relationship with Helen.

1.  Get rid of the cactus.

2.  The next time Martin says "fuck off" to him, give him the back of your hand across his mouth.  That will probably get her hot and bothered right away but don't do it just for the relationship but because it's Martin.

3.  Casually mention that he's meeting some old girlfriends or how much of a MILF the mother of one of his patients is.

4.  Badmouth her parents.  Repeatedly.

5.  Get the gag that Juliette wanted Noah to tie her up with and use it on Helen.

These sound pretty good, except Vik hitting Martin.  I would hate that.  But Helen should have handled the situation beyond telling Vik, it's true you're not his father.  But she potty mouths around her children so much, she didn't even seem to realize it's the fuck off that was offensive. 

I feel like I'm always busting Helen's chops, but I'm really just pointing out that she's no better or worse than Alison.  I don't remember any response when she impulsively snuck Vik in and fucked him in the basement while her kids were home.  I remember the absolute outrage when Noah stepped outside the motel room of his sleeping children, and simply spoke with Alison.   He was the worst, most irresponsible, unloving father in the world.  He was sitting right outside the door, closer than he would be at home in another bedroom. 

And I absolutely agree that Helen is completely over Vik.  He called her bluff when she was complaining about their separate lives within her home, and she's not satisfied with the results.  I do find Vik to be a total creeper.  I remember the way he spoke of his patient's mother last season.  And it was gross how much he liked Whitney's slimy lover.  I don't think Vik would have a problem buying that genitalia, even if it was Whitney's.

And please, no more Whitney.  I despise the character, and can't stand the actor's acting choices.  She stiffens up, hunches over, and starts the hands and arms flying.  It drives me crazy.  She's a complete idiot.  And she probably hates Noah because she's still protecting stupid Scott, who knocked her up with statutory rape.  And she ignores that she triggered the incident in which Cole pulled the gun (not that it excuses Cole for bringing a gun to a fistfight, ignoring Scott's crime).  I can still see her sitting at Cherry's kitchen table, chatting up the room, and drinking beer.  She's just so full of her self and is convinced she's always in the right.  I find her shrill and grating, and I think she takes after her grandmother.

I also find Cole's outrage at Scott's death so over the top.  He hated Scott to the degree that viewers even speculated that he ran over Scott.  He had cut off contact with his toxic family.  Cole knows Scott was out of control that night (the awesome calling out of his family disguised as a toast).  He knows the weather conditions that night, and he knows most people were drunk that night.  But he allows himself to believe that Noah was able to knowingly and deliberately pre-meditate killing Scott.  And being a father of a girl himself, he seems to not even understand the possible impulse to hurt Scott, after committing statutory rape, and hiding like a rat while someone deals with his aftermath.  Not to mention, his gutless hiding from Whitney, then asking if she's gone yet.  I didn't really have a problem with Noah laying in wait to see who the baby daddy was.  And I don't think his intention was violence until he saw it was a grown man, more than ten years older than his under-aged daughter.

[GeminiDancer]

It's clear that Alison suffers from mental illness, but yes, she views herself as a victim. I think there's a lot to Oscar's statement to Noah in the first season that she comes off as a wounded bird, but she destroys things.

1 hour ago, RedheadZombie said:

Yet Cole and Luisa call her evil for dropping her off at night!  Well, what the fuck, Cole, apparently you didn't even know your daughter was ill. 

No one called her evil for dropping Joanie off. Who knows the conversation they had that night. For all we know, Cole did check in and she lied and said that everything was fine. They have a problem with the fact that she left for six months without contact aside from him turning over custody to Cole and Luisa. Let's not forget that she kept Joanie from her father for two years! How is that Cole and Luisa's fault? That's on Noah and Alison.

1 hour ago, RedheadZombie said:

And I hate that they've glossed over Luisa's undocumented status.  In my state you can't even get a driver's license without a million documents proving your citizenship, but you can certainly get medical care in any hospital - regardless of your status - and you certainly don't become infertile from a back alley botched medical procedure. 

It's not relevant. I'd also wager that Luisa was able to get citizenship through her marriage to Cole. Medical mistakes happen all the time, so it's certainly plausible that she could be infertile. Uterine scarring from bad fibroids removal procedure? Sure. That can happen.

1 hour ago, RedheadZombie said:

And I don't remember if it was this episode, but I really hated Luisa throwing it in Cole's face that she is in this town and around his family.

It was early on in season 2 during Thanksgiving, where she would regularly travel to Montauk to see him (which ain't cheap), but he wouldn't go to Queens to be with her family. You don't see the problem with the imbalance?

1 hour ago, RedheadZombie said:

I also find Cole's outrage at Scott's death so over the top.

You wouldn't be outraged at the idea that the man who fucked your spouse and exploited your family's story for profit also killed your brother? He's still the only one who doesn't know the full extent of what happened. Cole hated what Scott became, but that doesn't mean he didn't love him. Why would Cole be committed to Scott's sobriety if he didn't?

[CarolMK]

I think it was unrealistic to see Helen seducing Max in this episode. What was more realistic to me was the way Nina interacted with Helen.

Martin is definitely troubled, as is Whitney. The whole cast of characters , when you come right  down to it, each has some kind of problem.

Glad we didn't have to see Noah tie up the French professor. I can't believe she even suggested it , has she known Noah longer than a couple of weeks?

I think we're going to see Helen reveal eventually that she was indeed driving the car that night. It did amaze me that she didn't even seem to blink when Nina asked her directly and that she could just lie so easily about it. If Helen doesn't do it, maybe Noah will. 

I agree with the poster that says it was a young Noah in the lake. My guess is he felt so guilty for helping his mother die that he tried to drown himself.

[attica]

2 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I missed where the credits mentioned young Noah.  Maybe the credits shouldn't spoil the plot.  

We saw Noah looking (at some length) at the photo of that boy with a woman, presumably his younger self and his mom. Plus we saw his image again in Grant's yearbook. So it doesn't seem to me like a spoiler for the credits to list him.  We got lots of foreshadowing.

[RedheadZombie]

1 hour ago, GeminiDancer said:

It's clear that Alison suffers from mental illness, but yes, she views herself as a victim. I think there's a lot to Oscar's statement to Noah in the first season that she comes off as a wounded bird, but she destroys things.

No one called her evil for dropping Joanie off. Who knows the conversation they had that night. For all we know, Cole did check in and she lied and said that everything was fine. They have a problem with the fact that she left for six months without contact aside from him turning over custody to Cole and Luisa. Let's not forget that she kept Joanie from her father for two years! How is that Cole and Luisa's fault? That's on Noah and Alison.

 

It's not relevant. I'd also wager that Luisa was able to get citizenship through her marriage to Cole. Medical mistakes happen all the time, so it's certainly plausible that she could be infertile. Uterine scarring from bad fibroids removal procedure? Sure. That can happen.

It was early on in season 2 during Thanksgiving, where she would regularly travel to Montauk to see him (which ain't cheap), but he wouldn't go to Queens to be with her family. You don't see the problem with the imbalance?

I didn't say that posters called her evil.  But Cole just threw it in her face that she dropped off Joanie at night.  I think that speaks of his impression that it was inconvenient.

It isn't Luisa's fault at all that Alison kept Joanie from Cole.  I continue to be skeptical that Cole was unable to understand simple math.  Even so, I think it was wrong to keep Joanie from him.  Where did I say that I didn't have a problem with it?

I'm glad you decided what's relevant, I don't happen to agree.  You just don't get citizenship through marriage.  You have to declare yourself undocumented and go through a process.  I think the marriage alone would have been hard to make legal, as she wasn't legally a citizen at the time.  This isn't moral judgment, as you may be assuming.  It's unrealistic, and irks me.

That scene may have happened in season two, but it definitely happened this episode or the prior.  It had nothing to do with Cole not going to Queens.  So no, I didn't see the imbalance this time.  Last time, sure.

1 hour ago, GeminiDancer said:

You wouldn't be outraged at the idea that the man who fucked your spouse and exploited your family's story for profit also killed your brother? He's still the only one who doesn't know the full extent of what happened. Cole hated what Scott became, but that doesn't mean he didn't love him. Why would Cole be committed to Scott's sobriety if he didn't?

I think Cole has every right to hate Noah in general.  I think focusing on Scotty as the reason is a little disingenuous.  And I think he chooses to believe it was deliberate, against all evidence that says otherwise.  Cole was committed to Scotty's sobriety because he, along with his family, put him in the position as the caretaker of all.  But Cole was also the leader of the drug ring, and involved his own troubled brother and his troubled wife.  I side-eye that decision.  Alison worked full time plus took side jobs.  There was no need to involve her in the process.  So while I have great compassion for Cole in being saddled with this family, he was the ring leader of a dangerous illegal racket, that involved significant jail time for all involved.  And Cole did this without regret, because he despised the tourists.  They've really softened up the character and made him sympathetic, but season one represented him as a little sinister, and a little dangerous.  You may dismiss Noah's and Alison's POV 100%, but I can't.

47 minutes ago, attica said:

We saw Noah looking (at some length) at the photo of that boy with a woman, presumably his younger self and his mom. Plus we saw his image again in Grant's yearbook. So it doesn't seem to me like a spoiler for the credits to list him.  We got lots of foreshadowing.

I didn't get a good look at either of those pictures, particularly the yearbook.  I was watching on my bedroom TV, versus the larger living room one.  I'm actually glad that it's Noah, because I'm sick of Gunther, and was hoping another character wouldn't be added.  It adds to the point that Noah's been tormented all of his adult life, that's for sure.

[nara]

1 hour ago, CarolMK said:

Glad we didn't have to see Noah tie up the French professor. I can't believe she even suggested it , has she known Noah longer than a couple of weeks?

Amen, sister!  

She's clearly a masochist--likes being tied up, invites annoying students to dinner...  ;) 

[GeminiDancer]

1 hour ago, RedheadZombie said:

I didn't say that posters called her evil.  But Cole just threw it in her face that she dropped off Joanie at night.  I think that speaks of his impression that it was inconvenient.

I don't think it's that she dropped her off at night; it was that she dropped Joanie off that was seemingly for a few days and turned to six months.

 

1 hour ago, RedheadZombie said:

But Cole was also the leader of the drug ring, and involved his own troubled brother and his troubled wife.  I side-eye that decision.  Alison worked full time plus took side jobs. 

No one put a gun to Alison's head to do it though. She needs to take ownership of that. Her POV operates as if things happen to her without consideration to how she contributes to the situation (Scott attempting to rape her being the exception).

[Armchair Critic]

I was hoping to see what Max's fiancée looked like, but they didn't let the audience see her picture when Helen looked at it.

[grumpypanda]

This was my least favorite episode of this season so far. I'm just not into this whole Noah's going crazy story line crap. Are we sure Noah is taking Vicodin and not PCP? Vicodin isn't even a super strong pain medication so why is Noah seeing shit and acting like a lunatic? 

This is the first episode that I actually hated Helen. I hate her for using Max and for cheating on sexy Vic. Mostly I hate her for not getting over Noah. It's been years, get over him already!! 

Even though Max is a scum bag for cheating on his fiancee I still felt a little bad for him for getting sucked back into Helen's bull shit for a minute. I cheered when he told her to “get the fuck out." 

[LilaFowler]

I can agree with Helen about one thing: it's pretty pathetic that her mother so easily took her father back after the very callous way he tossed her aside for his former student.  He disrupted their lives over Ina and then was allowed to slide back in oh-so-easily, like nothing had ever happened.  That's disappointing. 

On the other hand, Helen is still carrying a big torch for Noah despite everything that's happened so she can't really talk.  It's a little hard to believe that two people could be married and avoid the topic of one person's parent(s) for so long.  Did Helen never think to ask, did Noah never feel comfortable enough to confide in her, or both?  Either way, that marriage was doomed to unravel at some point.  Too bad there were kids involved and that it took so long.

The writers must have realized that Cole and Helen were still likable characters prior to this season and decided to put a stop to it.  WTF, Helen?  Max is a grown man who should be able to control himself, but damn that was cold.  Minutes after he tells her that he's getting married and moving to Brooklyn, she seduces him and then proceeds to talk about Noah.  I hope Max told his fiance what happened and she dumped him.  Luisa, Danielle, Vik, the kids... all innocent victims of these fucked up and selfish adults.

[Snewtsie]

I've always enjoyed Helen's POV most, but this episode showed she has grown into a spiteful, joyless, destructive shell of a person.  I really hated seeing that.  When Cole slept with Alison, that ruined it for me with him.  Now that Helen slept with Max and subsequently pissed all over everyone she came into contact with on this episode, that has ruined it for me with her.  At this point, I'm rooting for Vik & Luisa to somehow randomly meet and run away together.

[izabella]

1 minute ago, grumpypanda said:

This is the first episode that I actually hated Helen. I hate her for using Max and for cheating on sexy Vic. Mostly I hate her for not getting over Noah. It's been years, get over him already!! 

I feel the same way.  I'm trying to see her obsession with Noah as something that comes from having a husband for 20 years and thinking they had a good marriage, and then being blind-sided by his affair.  The affair turned her assumptions about her marriage - and her life, her self - upside down and she's still trying to find her bearings.  But, Noah has been such an ass ever since we've known him, I'm having a hard time imagining what passed for a "good marriage" between them such that she would be so clueless and blind-sided by his behavior toward her and their kids.  And, there's the kids - when all of your kids are so messed up, you kinda have to take a look at who raised them and how, and that doesn't indicate a good marriage.   So I can only conclude that Helen was as messed up as she is now, delusional and self-involved.

[shelley1234]

Hmm.  Not sure I am interesting in watching this show this season if it is just to watch Noah go full on banana.   

I am still skeptical that Martin would have dropped his angst and anger at his father so quickly.  I know, I know....moved the plot along.  Fine.  

Helen sleeping with Max?  Blergh.  And of course she only did it to get him to answer those questions in her noggin' about Noah and their courtship.  Max is a d-bag and all, but still Helen.  That's cold.  

And I did find it rich that Helen was so bothered by her mom taking her cheating dad back....when we all know she would be back with Noah right now if he would have anything to do with her.  

Speaking of people who wish Noah would have something do with them.....can't stand the french prof lady character, at all.  

[Medicine Crow]

I just watched last night's episode & the recording cut off as Noah was wading into the water after, what looked like his son.  Please fill me in on what happened.  Thanks in advance!!!

[chick binewski]

22 hours ago, Bebecat said:

Yes, the pill stuff is annoying. I take pain meds for chronic pain and I hate it when meds are used just for plotlines. It is a nightmare getting my medications as it is...

I feel your pain (almost literally and definitely figuratively). You have my sympathies! 

21 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Sorry to quote the same post twice.  But why would Helen need Alison's script to cheat?  I'm not sure why Alison is always seen as the super-slut, while Helen has boundaries and good taste.   Alison has slept with three men  - Cole, Noah, and a ONS with Oscar.  Helen has been with Noah, Max, and Vik.   And poor ole Cole has slept with three women - Alison, the lady who picked him up in the cab, and Luisa.  Yet of these three, only one is accused of being a sex addict with no boundaries, and whose only means of communicating is through her vagina. 

I thought Helen was written more like Alison not just for having sex with Max but for all her off behavior this episode. Going to Nina all poorly-covert and a little pearl-clutchy followed by going to Max (for intel, I thought) and pouting for unenthusiastic sex. Both Helen this week and Noah last week (his frat boy jovial thing on the boat) seemed odd to me. But again, I'm having severe problems with the writing this season.

18 hours ago, scrb said:

I LOVE it when Helen's parents are on, especially the prick father.

**

In the first season, she chose Noah because she took it for granted that he was so devoted to her.  And the money kept him as her puppet through their marriage until that fateful day at the Lobster Roll. But now, Nina says Noah was using her to get out of smalltownsville, taking advantage of Helen wanting to rescue a wounded boy getting over a huge loss in his life -- this backstory seems bolted on, like something they added much later.

Kathleen Chalfant and John Doman are too good. Need more. I did think Nina's indignation seemed over the top. But this might be due in part to my thought that I don't buy Jennifer Esposito in the role at all. And I wish they hadn't dangled the dad carrot at us again. Give the details already. 

11 hours ago, nara said:

I believe this is the first time they confirmed that Noah euthanized his mother, right?  I cannot remember what I guessed vs. what they have previously told us.  I really enjoyed the Nina-Helen conversation (Jennifer Esposito is underrated IMO) but I wish she had told Helen the truth about Noah and his mother.  Clearly, Noah volunteered the guilty plea out of guilt for killing his mother.  I think it would be good for Helen to understand that and not continue to think he did it out of love/guilt/loyalty towards her.

I had assumed it was Noah, but Gunther makes sense too.

Noah did tell Alison about giving his mother the overdose of pills. I do not know that we've got confirmation that Nina knows what happened, though. 

I think the person in the lake is Noah, but I'm basing this on a flashback ages ago which I thought featured Noah's dad yelling to Noah as Noah was running towards the lake.

Edited January 3, 2017 by chick binewski

[Blakeston]

20 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I'm not sure why Alison is always seen as the super-slut, while Helen has boundaries and good taste.   Alison has slept with three men  - Cole, Noah, and a ONS with Oscar.  Helen has been with Noah, Max, and Vik.   And poor ole Cole has slept with three women - Alison, the lady who picked him up in the cab, and Luisa.  Yet of these three, only one is accused of being a sex addict with no boundaries, and whose only means of communicating is through her vagina. 

I think it's because Alison is constantly shown cheating, and otherwise sleeping with men she shouldn't - and how often she ends up having sex with a man the second there's any kind of closeness between them.

[LydiaE]

1 hour ago, grumpypanda said:

This was my least favorite episode of this season so far. I'm just not into this whole Noah's going crazy story line crap. Are we sure Noah is taking Vicodin and not PCP? Vicodin isn't even a super strong pain medication so why is Noah seeing shit and acting like a lunatic? 

This is the first episode that I actually hated Helen. I hate her for using Max and for cheating on sexy Vic. Mostly I hate her for not getting over Noah. It's been years, get over him already!! 

Even though Max is a scum bag for cheating on his fiancee I still felt a little bad for him for getting sucked back into Helen's bull shit for a minute. I cheered when he told her to “get the fuck out." 

Seriously, the dude is literally bipolar. He has shown the signs since season 1. He even remarked to Allison that he was crazy to blow up his life for her. His affair with her seemed to trigger a bout of hypersexual behavior as well, with and without her, that ended in the loss of his long-term teaching career.

Assisting in his mother's suicide could have thrown him into his first manic episode. The stress of prison could have triggered psychosis. Opiates have been known to trigger manic episodes in bipolar individuals, sometimes resulting in hallucination, etc.

Noah has burned bridges with everyone in his life. He does not even seem to be grateful for the employment he secured after leaving prison.  He's comfortable with Alison because she's unstable too. It's part of the initial attraction even though he felt he had his life together when they first met.

[EyesGlazed]

As everyone else has hit the big themes, I'm going to hit the trivial.  First, how could "grandma" tell Martin it was okay for him to visit the lake house whenever he wanted to be alone when grandma kicked the bucket 30 years ago?  Second, how do these characters get from back and forth from Manhattan to "eastern Pennsylvania" in no time at all?  Third, was that white pus in Noah's wound there at the end?  Gross!  Also, why was the wound a roundish hole instead of a slash like you'd get from someone knifing you?  Fourth, why were there all the art supplies and paintings in the house?  Were those Noah's mother's?  Also:  the box TV in the bedroom was another set designer anvil that these were poor, plain people.  Come on, it's 2017 and everybody has a flat screen.

I just can't imagine why the writers think Eau So Franch is a useful character.  And how cliche to make her French in a show supposedly about romantic and erotic love.  (And I like the French, don't get me wrong.)  It would have been at least marginally more interesting if she were Russian or from a Muslim culture.

Quote

The way that girl went up to Martin, asking him if he wanted to go to the party with her.  Maybe she see's a solution to her college tuition worries.

Uh, what?  All I saw was a teenager being nice and giving the boy from out of town a chance to escape the uncomfortable dinner with her.  It's disturbing that based on no evidence you assume "that girl" is some scheming gold-digger.

[dangwoodchucks]

46 minutes ago, EyesGlazed said:

As everyone else has hit the big themes, I'm going to hit the trivial.  First, how could "grandma" tell Martin it was okay for him to visit the lake house whenever he wanted to be alone when grandma kicked the bucket 30 years ago?  Second, how do these characters get from back and forth from Manhattan to "eastern Pennsylvania" in no time at all?  Third, was that white pus in Noah's wound there at the end?  Gross!  Also, why was the wound a roundish hole instead of a slash like you'd get from someone knifing you?  Fourth, why were there all the art supplies and paintings in the house?  Were those Noah's mother's?  Also:  the box TV in the bedroom was another set designer anvil that these were poor, plain people.  Come on, it's 2017 and everybody has a flat screen.

I just can't imagine why the writers think Eau So Franch is a useful character.  And how cliche to make her French in a show supposedly about romantic and erotic love.  (And I like the French, don't get me wrong.)  It would have been at least marginally more interesting if she were Russian or from a Muslim culture.

Uh, what?  All I saw was a teenager being nice and giving the boy from out of town a chance to escape the uncomfortable dinner with her.  It's disturbing that based on no evidence you assume "that girl" is some scheming gold-digger.

Well, my parents aren't poor but they refuse to replace their bulky, elderly 32" TV (it's much younger than the one in the Dad's room but still) for the simple reason that it still works fine. Makes me feel bad for all the space they could save by replacing it.

Martin said "Grampa", rather than Grandma, told him he could come to the house whenever he wanted.

Dominic West looked more attractive to me in this episode than he usually does.

Is this the last of 50 Shades of French Professor? She's annoying and adds nothing to the story.

[LilaFowler]

2 hours ago, EyesGlazed said:

Fourth, why were there all the art supplies and paintings in the house?  Were those Noah's mother's? 

Noah's father was the painter.  When Noah was leaving the townhouse that he shared with Helen, the one thing he made sure to take was the painting that his father did for him that hung in the bedroom.

I agree about the French woman.  How many times does Noah have to turn her down before she stops throwing herself at him?  He shows up with her busted car and she immediately tries to get him into bed. Not only that, but she wants him to tie her up and shit.  They haven't even had basic sex yet and she's going straight into bondage.  WHAT?  There is something wrong with this woman. I know she says that she's bored and whatever but my god.

Edited January 3, 2017 by LilaFowler

[NutMeg]

6 hours ago, Medicine Crow said:

I just watched last night's episode & the recording cut off as Noah was wading into the water after, what looked like his son.  Please fill me in on what happened.  Thanks in advance!!!

I had the same problem except mine cut off right after Martin said (twice) "I hate school", while Noah was putting the enveloppes in the drawer, then... cut. Please what happened next, can someone let me know? I'd really appreciate it very much!

[gingerella]

I find it fascinating that so many characters in one show seem to have magical vaginas and magnetic penis'...it seems like any time is the right time to fuck someone in this show. even if you've just been stabbed in the neck and almost bled to death if the moment presents itself, you Just.Do.It. It's become a farce at this point. Season One sex scenes were really well done, but now it's comical it's so bad. it's like the writers and show runners don't have anymore story to tell and whenever they can't come up with something, it's time for some scene fucking, literally. 

ETA: I found it laughable that Noah was DTF with Frenchy until she wanted some good old fashioned satin bondage and suddenly that was too much for Noah, he of the just-stabbed neck wound. And Frenchy...come the fuck on lady, the dude has just been stabbed in the neck, you found him almost bled out, and you wanna fuck the next day when he stops by your house with your wrecked car?  and uh, writers, way to go just dropping the car crash storyline. Jeez.

Edited January 3, 2017 by gingerella

[grumpypanda]

Juliette throwing herself at Noah is almost embarrassing at this point but she sure has terrible timing. I can't imagine anyone wanting to have sex right after a bad car accident. This wasn't a minor fender bender the car was totalled so what the fuck is she thinking? Plus the man is recovering from a stab wound to the neck, I don't understand why she finds him so irresistible. He looked so gross to me in this episode. 

I also don't understand why Noah 's stab wound wasn't stitched up. I'm not a medical professional but that thing looked like it needed stitches. 

[GeminiDancer]

It could be that it was a wound that needed to heal from the inside out. I had surgery in my teens for a cyst removal, and the wound needed to stay open to get the full drainage. Basically, I had to have it changed everyday with the removal and insertion of packing.

The pus was nasty. I was like, that thing's infected.

[DarkRaichu]

10 hours ago, EyesGlazed said:

Second, how do these characters get from back and forth from Manhattan to "eastern Pennsylvania" in no time at all?

Cole let Martin drive his flying car?  ie. Cole did similar insta trips last season as well :P

[Blakeston]

Another reason it's completely ridiculous for Juliette to want Noah to tie her up - she believes he's a murderer. And she knows very little else about him (aside from believing that someone is out to kill him.)

[attica]

I'm tentatively thinking that PMESF only wanted to be tied up in Noah's manic fever dream. Otherwise, it's just too icky, given all the circumstances. But I'm willing to concede that TPTB don't mind the ick and I could therefore be wrong.