S05.E09: What We Leave Behind

[bethy]

The flashbacks to Dig and Oliver in the old Arrow cave just emphasized for me how much I miss the smaller, more intimate dynamic. The contrast between it being just the two of them in the dark and then the multi-person team in the new brightly-lit space was jarring, and kind of depressing to me.

[Mellowyellow]

14 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I realized I'm also annoyed with the show having Felicity comment on how attractive the women are in Oliver's life (gorgeous Laurel, super hot reporter). I know it was to make that scene even more awkward, but still. 

I get the impression that we are supposed to imagine that Felicity is plain and nerdy. But they stick a very good looking actress in the role anyway. 

Like when the movies pretend that Anne Hathaway is "plain".

[bijoux]

If the show wanted the audience to see Felicty as plain, I don't think they'd be putting her in the clothes they have her wearing.

[Mellowyellow]

The actress is pretty so they are going to give her nice clothes. But I think the glasses are meant to make her the plain and nerdy character. Hence the comments about how good looking Oliver's other women are.

Doesn't bother me in the slightest but I get the impression the character is not supposed to be as pretty as the actress actually is.  

[bijoux]

EBR fought to keep the glasses after they sexed up Felicity after season 1. Something I completely endorse.

[Potanical Pardon]

I'm convinced Susan is Prometheus now. Not just a rebound love-interest for lazy writing any more. Yes, the vodka bottle did it for me, but it really just made me think back to all the rest of the season already and where/what she's been doing - always late/early, out of breath, no explanations, really.

My only issue with a reveal is the canon Prometheus. We're not supposed to know who he/she is. It can still go that way. There's definitely Prometheus stories where an identity or revelation happens only to have the real Prometheus show up and be even more terrifying and amazing. 

Or she's the genuine Prometheus, we just never find out her real name, just that she's some Claybourne bastard. That set up of having all the dead cops at that address and Claybourne getting shot by Ollie into the pool is totally the origin while somehow also having to parallel Ollie's dad's death which I haven't figured out yet other than getting shot and falling into water part. Prometheus probably gets the same book of names thing right before Ollie kills Claybourne and ventures off to have her own series of training adventures. Maybe she even just found out her true heritage and Ollie interrupted getting-to-know-dad time.

[mrspidey]

In defense of Olliver, I think it makes sense that he didn't comfort Felicity. While she acknowlegded that Prometheus is the one to blame, it was still Olliver who put three arrows in her boyfriend. While she isn't mad at him, she probably wouldn't want to be hugged by him right now. I find it quite mature that he is giving her a bit of space. 

Edited December 9, 2016 by mrspidey

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The two best things that happened in this episode:

(1) Oliver admitted that he killed Billy instead of trying to obfuscate what happened in any way

(2) Flashback Oliver told Felicity that he needed that address so he could send someone a singing telegram

Damn it, Laurel is back? Noooooooooooo!

On 12/7/2016 at 7:46 PM, tennisgurl said:

Does this mean Prometheus will take off his hood and give everyone a two hour lecture about honor? I would watch the hell out of Worf vs. Oliver. 

Billie died as he lived, pointlessly to create angst for the main characters. 

Hahahaha, I would totally watch Worf lecturing Oliver about honor. Imagine the verbal smackdown Oliver would get if he tried to interrupt or interject at any time during this lecture.

And I totally agree that Billy's life and death on this show were similar in purpose. But at least he's gone now! Then again, as Felicity pointed out, people who are supposed to be dead keep popping up every Wednesday.

[tv echo]

I think that if Billy had never dated Felicity, he would still be a good cop. He'd still be asked to join the ACU after Conklin and the other cops were killed, and he'd still have done his job by investigating Prometheus.  Therefore, he'd still be killed by Prometheus once he discovered the baby pic clue - just like Conklin and the other ACU cops were killed by Prometheus. I think the only thing that would've happened differently is that Prometheus would've killed him right away, rather than using him to trick Oliver into killing him.

Edited December 9, 2016 by tv echo

[Delphi]

22 hours ago, wonderwall said:

Oliver lying to his loved ones so he doesn't lose them even more than he already has... Sounds like a family trait

Oliver and Thea have a hell of a lot more Moira in them then they'd ever like to admit. 

 

Bye Evelyn,  you were. ..there.   Hi Thea!

I didn't care about Billy , but that sure sucks for him, Oliver and Felicity.   

Pretty sure Prometheus is Roy. ..because of hardcore parkour.   But I don't want Roy to be evil, but I want Colton back...  so conflicted.

And fuck you Curtis,  I don't care that you're at home crying in your couch.   You're a terrible fucking husband.   You lie,  you put Paul's life on danger and then you act like it's no big deal and no,  by the way,  it's not "who you are", you've been doing this for four months and are terrible at it.   Paul deserves better than you "Mr. Terrific".  

[insomniadreams88]

12 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I think that if Billy had never dated Felicity, he would still be a good cop. He'd still be asked to join the ACU after Conklin and the other cops were killed, and he'd still have done his job by investigating Prometheus.  Therefore, he'd still be killed by Prometheus once he discovered the baby pic clue - just like Conklin and the other ACU cops were killed by Prometheus. I think the only thing that would've happened differently is that Prometheus would've killed him right away, rather than using him to trick Oliver into killing him.

Or maybe he still would have tricked Oliver because Billy would be ACU, reporting to Mayor Oliver Queen, and Prometheus had upped his game since he killed the cop in the premiere. 

[Proteus]

9 hours ago, Potanical Pardon said:

I'm convinced Susan is Prometheus now. Not just a rebound love-interest for lazy writing any more. Yes, the vodka bottle did it for me, but it really just made me think back to all the rest of the season already and where/what she's been doing - always late/early, out of breath, no explanations, really.

My only issue with a reveal is the canon Prometheus. We're not supposed to know who he/she is. It can still go that way. There's definitely Prometheus stories where an identity or revelation happens only to have the real Prometheus show up and be even more terrifying and amazing. 

Or she's the genuine Prometheus, we just never find out her real name, just that she's some Claybourne bastard. That set up of having all the dead cops at that address and Claybourne getting shot by Ollie into the pool is totally the origin while somehow also having to parallel Ollie's dad's death which I haven't figured out yet other than getting shot and falling into water part. Prometheus probably gets the same book of names thing right before Ollie kills Claybourne and ventures off to have her own series of training adventures. Maybe she even just found out her true heritage and Ollie interrupted getting-to-know-dad time.

Prometheus looks male.

And they already said this character is their own creation and has nothing to do with the comic books.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Proteus

[blackwing]

Worst thing about this episode:  Laurel is back.  I don't care if it's real Laurel or clone Laurel or Black Siren Laurel or alternate timeline made primary timeline Laurel.  It looks like Laurel.  It acts like Laurel.  The actress has always been awful and the only one that can outdo her earnest display of "hey world look at my huge mouth with all of its brilliantly white and straight teeth" is the original Horseface herself, Julia Roberts.  Or maybe Horseface 2, Nancy Kerrigan.

Second worst thing about this episode:  TOO MUCH CURTIS.  I still find it shockingly hilarious that his code name is "Mr. Terrific".  I know that's an actual comic book character, but there's absolutely nothing terrific about Curtis.  Despite what Paul said... Curtis can't fight.  At all.  He looks ridiculous trying.  I wish he had died.

Third worst thing about this episode:  Too much Reporter Lady.  Since when did she insinuate herself so much into Oliver's life?  I thought they had been on one maybe two dates.  Now she's acting all possessive, slinking over to Oliver's side to claim him at the holiday party when Felicity approached him.  Why would Oliver turn to her after killing Billy?  She doesn't know his secret, or at least he doesn't know that.  She poured him a glass of vodka from a bottle with the label "Russia" written in Russian.  I think she knows about him, and that she is connected to Prometheus.  She knows "the move" that Tatiana (?) taught him.  The only thing is that the body that plays Prometheus seems obviously a man's body.  Maybe she is a third sibling.  I wish Reporter Lady had died.

Fourth worst thing about this episode:  Wild Dung is still here, and didn't die.

I guess maybe it's not such a bad episode after all if Wild Dung is only the fourth worst thing about it? :)

[EmilyBettFan]

Omg Blackwing your first post has me completely cry-laughing so hard. Actually your entire post. Bravo.

[statsgirl]

Just thinking about it, soooo much time was spent on characters I don't care about (Wild Dog, Susan, Evelyn) or storylines I don't care about (Curtis' marriage break-up, Felicity's awkward relationship with Mayo).  Remember when Stephen Amell quoted David Nutter that that the most important scene in the pilot was the dinner scene because it doesn't matter how good the action sequences are if you don't care about the characters?

7 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Hahahaha, I would totally watch Worf lecturing Oliver about honor. Imagine the verbal smackdown Oliver would get if he tried to interrupt or interject at any time during this lecture.

Gimme!

[johntfs]

Spoiler

Maybe Laurel is actually a vision of Savitar from the Flash storyline.  A dead person also popped up on Legends of Tomorrow.  I have noticed that Katie Cassidy seems to do better as snarky and evil than good and supportive.

I am warming a little to Wild Dog and wonder if there going to be something between him and Thea.  Generally when a girl declares a guy to be "not my type" he'll totally end up being her type.  Speaking of Thea, am I the only who's noticed that Thea comes across as being much older/more mature than she should be.  Thea was 17 when the show started so figure she should be around 22 at this point.  Willa is 26, but if I didn't know better I'd peg Thea as being 28-29 or so.  The same goes for Felicity.

Speaking of Felicity, I also find it hilariously sucky that the other characters, including Felicity seem to feel worse for Oliver feeling bad for making Felicity feel bad than they do for Felicity actually feeling bad.  It feels a little like the time VP Dick Cheney shot his friend in the face and the friend apologized to Dick Cheney for the trouble Cheney was enduring due to shooting him in the face.  "Yes, I know you pincuchioned my boyfriend, Oliver, but let's talk about your feelings instead of mine."

Edited December 10, 2016 by kariyaki
added spoiler tags

[LeighAn]

I've also always felt Felicity comes across as a lot older then Emily is in real life. Not that Emily physically looks old but that she displays a maturity that some times makes me forget she's only 25 and the youngest in the cast at least until the hired Madalin anyway. 

[BkWurm1]

Quote

I don't know, while watching the episode I was worried he wasn't going to tell her - which makes me really think about how I view season 1-3 Oliver... I mean it's either that or I was just afraid of the writers going for contrived drama yet again... 

Yeah, I really was right there with you, worried that he'd think he'd done something unforgivable and would try to pass the blame to Prometheus.  All he would have to do was take his arrows back and there would be no way to prove he'd done it.  So I did have to give him points for doing the harder thing and owning up to what happened.  But yeah, it's pretty bad that I seriously had to worry if Oliver had regressed to the point of covering something that huge up from the team let alone Felicity.  

18 hours ago, Potanical Pardon said:

I'm convinced Susan is Prometheus now. Not just a rebound love-interest for lazy writing any more. Yes, the vodka bottle did it for me, but it really just made me think back to all the rest of the season already and where/what she's been doing - always late/early, out of breath, no explanations, really.

My only issue with a reveal is the canon Prometheus. We're not supposed to know who he/she is. It can still go that way. There's definitely Prometheus stories where an identity or revelation happens only to have the real Prometheus show up and be even more terrifying and amazing. 

Or she's the genuine Prometheus, we just never find out her real name, just that she's some Claybourne bastard. That set up of having all the dead cops at that address and Claybourne getting shot by Ollie into the pool is totally the origin while somehow also having to parallel Ollie's dad's death which I haven't figured out yet other than getting shot and falling into water part. Prometheus probably gets the same book of names thing right before Ollie kills Claybourne and ventures off to have her own series of training adventures. Maybe she even just found out her true heritage and Ollie interrupted getting-to-know-dad time.

One big blow to your Susan (aka Rayporter)  is Prometheus theory is I'm pretty sure that she was still inside playing Oliver's date when Curtis was attacked.  She could though have been working with him since someone had to have tipped him off that he and Paul were leaving early.

Side point:  I wonder if Paul thought it was odd that he (Felicity's former physical therapist) and Curtis, (her friend and supposed co-worker) were invited to the Holiday Party hosted by Felicity's ex the current Mayor.  I get why from a public perspective it would be in Oliver's interest to invite the ex to show they are on friendly terms, but his ex's former employee and spouse that he kinda sorta met?  Maybe the mayoral office has a hard time getting anyone to show up to these things and was just glad for the warm bodies.   

[Potanical Pardon]

19 hours ago, Proteus said:

Prometheus looks male.

And they already said this character is their own creation and has nothing to do with the comic books.

They can say that, but honestly, the comic version lends itself to being able to say that. The comic version doesn't have any revealed identity. The only for sure about him is that he's basically an evil Batman and instead of being orphaned/having his origin rooted in his parents murdered by criminals, Prometheus' parents were murdered by cops. Other than that, he's supposed to be Batman-level intelligent and covered his tracks so well that characters and readers have no idea who he really is. The show, Arrow, has pretty much been a Batman TV show but trying super hard to use Green Arrow and his rogues when they can, but if not, fit in looser Batman characters and stories. Even comic Green Arrow was considered a knock-off of Batman in the early days before the 70s got a hold of redefining him.

If they're going to name the character, Prometheus, and basically give him Ollie/archer skills, that's about as in-line with the comics version as you can get with mirroring Bruce/Batman. Aside from the Batman stuff, Cry for Justice definitely makes Prometheus have a GA family tie. And

 

Oh man, I just realized that they might go to a dark place with Baby John/Sara.

.

10 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

One big blow to your Susan (aka Rayporter)  is Prometheus theory is I'm pretty sure that she was still inside playing Oliver's date when Curtis was attacked.  She could though have been working with him since someone had to have tipped him off that he and Paul were leaving early.

Rats. You're right. Hmm.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Potanical Pardon

[misstwpherecool]

On 12/7/2016 at 7:14 PM, Morrigan2575 said:

I think it's a reminder and hint for the fans. They were always going to put them back together and believe it or not they seem to be back on track(ish). They didn't have Felicity blame Oliver in order to create angst and keep them apart to May. They didn't have either Felicty or Oliver say I love you to either Temp LI. Felicity could barely call Billy her boyfriend and, Oliver pulled a wham, bam, thank you man on the reporter. Plus, she's shady as hell and they deliberately panned to the Russian Vodka, hint hint.

So yeah, I still think 513-515 reunion

For a while I thought showing the vodka label was planned product placement/sneaky advertising. But reporter could also be setting up Oliver for the Russians and is simply another story line that will merge into one hectic day.

[misstwpherecool]

All the flashbacks just made me remember what a great show this was before all the "magic" of Dark and Raj Al Ghul (sp) and the Lazarus pit etc.  When it was Oliver and Diggle working through the list, this show was exciting. Oliver had a purpose, I loved the whole "Russian mobster" secret identity.  Now we have the "newbies" in the cave that are truly horrendous. 

Then comes the whole Felicity versus Laurel romance, all the "big bad," everyone knowing who the Arrow is ( honestly, lets just hang a sign outside) and killing Moira. Not to mention that Oliver was no longer killing people.  The Arrow being unrepentant and focused was part of his appeal.  They could have easily wrote this with the Dark Archer being in the background while they continued to battle the baddie of the week. 

Oliver and Sarah was also a big mistake that this show made. In my opinion, the one thing they have gotten right is Diggle and Lyla...and they will find a way to mess that up.  I appreciate that they had Diggle address baby Sarah , but why in a conversation with Wild Dog? 

Felicity's boyfriend was so clearly marked for demise that they may as well have put an X on his head, but why have Oliver kill him? 

Why not have the police officer that got show ( I think a former classmate or former girlfriend?) come back? She seemed like a good character. They could have made Laurel's friend (that was in Charlie's Angels) become someone who was in the legal field because she was disappointed about her brother being killed.  

I can understand Oliver wanting to connect with someone who did not know his secret in a moment where he had to feel pretty worthless. Being with Felicity when he had just killed her boyfriend was inappropriate, but I would have rather them show him picking up an anonymous woman in a bar than someone who a few episodes ago was trying to discredit him.   It makes no sense when he had just been betrayed by someone he thought he knew well. 

I have skipped and fast forwarded so many episodes that I don't even know Evelyn's backstory.....but they all annoy me.   Either make Curtis Mr Terrific with a purpose (quickly) or get rid of him.  No one is interested in his drama with his husband in an action adventure show, any more than I was interested in Laurel and Oliver, or Oliver and Felicity.  I can take Diggle and Lyla because it does not distract from the show and the action. 

Yeh "the magic" stuff. I think when they saw the continued success of the Avenger movies they wanted more sci-fi or supernatural type stuff ie comic book feel and special effects. They even made meta human quips in the crossover yet black magic, reincarnation etc doesn't phase them?

Absolutely correct Diggle and Lyla are the ones to care about. Especially with a young child.

Absolutely too much Curtis along with more Felicity-Oliver crap. Too much relationship stufffff in any show can turn into annoying time filler in a hurry. Wether it be gratuitous sex or just dragged out scenes that take away from story time. It's fine to show who is currently with who and the status of the relationship but most else kills time.

Some not all of the action seemed contrived or forced. It seemed like they just throwing stuff at you at times.

I will say with all the time travel stuff from the Flash or Legends I'm surprised there are not more surprises.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think the magic stuff is to blame on the decision to create a shared universe with the Flash, later Legends and now Supergirl more than on external factors.

I don't care much for relationship drama either but if they don't give meaningful relationships to the characters that make them look like humans I can't care much for them in general. I can watch a season if the plot is engaging but it's likely I get bored if I couldn't care less about the characters. The newbies for example could disappear tomorrow and I wouldn't even notice because they slapped masks on them without showing them as people first with the exception of Curtis, that I liked more last year while now he is a (pretty lame) vigilante for no apparent reason other than he has to be Mr Terrific.

[Potanical Pardon]

9 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I think the magic stuff is to blame on the decision to create a shared universe with the Flash, later Legends and now Supergirl more than on external factors.

I don't care much for relationship drama either but if they don't give meaningful relationships to the characters that make them look like humans I can't care much for them in general. I can watch a season if the plot is engaging but it's likely I get bored if I couldn't care less about the characters. The newbies for example could disappear tomorrow and I wouldn't even notice because they slapped masks on them without showing them as people first with the exception of Curtis, that I liked more last year while now he is a (pretty lame) vigilante for no apparent reason other than he has to be Mr Terrific.

I like Curtis. And I like Mr. Terrific. But Curtis is a horrible Mr. Terrific. Mr. Terrific is supposed to be the third smartest person in the world...and I'm guessing second in this one since the Luthors are over on another Earth. Actually, what's the status on Batfam? Maybe he's the smartest person on Earth Arrow. Curtis is definitely not. Aside from that part, Curtis is way too neurotic and fanboy, though to be fair, the show did give him an entirely different first name so maybe he's not the guy. What's weird is that before action-adventure Curtis of this season, he actually DID come across as Mr. Terrific-esque. It wasn't until his cool, calm, and collected demeanor even if at times was self-deprecating got axed in that episode where he finds out Ollie is the Green Arrow that he got super annoying.

[Midnight Lullaby]

6 minutes ago, Potanical Pardon said:

I like Curtis. And I like Mr. Terrific. But Curtis is a horrible Mr. Terrific. Mr. Terrific is supposed to be the third smartest person in the world...and I'm guessing second in this one since the Luthors are over on another Earth. Actually, what's the status on Batfam? Maybe he's the smartest person on Earth Arrow. Curtis is definitely not. Aside from that part, Curtis is way too neurotic and fanboy, though to be fair, the show did give him an entirely different first name so maybe he's not the guy. What's weird is that before action-adventure Curtis of this season, he actually DID come across as Mr. Terrific-esque. It wasn't until his cool, calm, and collected demeanor even if at times was self-deprecating got axed in that episode where he finds out Ollie is the Green Arrow that he got super annoying.

Well the writers took the characters and made their own versions so it's impossible to say how smart their version of Mr Terrific is unless they establish it in the universe they created. Also it seemed to me that from the beginning they wanted a character that could provide a bit of comic relief from the way they have always written him. I don't care for him this season because he is just another mask in the field and he can't even fight so what's his purpose? If he quits the team can go on like nothing happened. Also if they don't give me a real, strong reason why a person wants to put on a mask and fight crime I just don't care. From this POV it's more interesting to me what happened to Vigilante because there's a story there to tell.

[Potanical Pardon]

9 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Well the writers took the characters and made their own versions so it's impossible to say how smart their version of Mr Terrific is unless they establish it in the universe they created. Also it seemed to me that from the beginning they wanted a character that could provide a bit of comic relief from the way they have always written him. I don't care for him this season because he is just another mask in the field and he can't even fight so what's his purpose? If he quits the team can go on like nothing happened. Also if they don't give me a real, strong reason why a person wants to put on a mask and fight crime I just don't care. From this POV it's more interesting to me what happened to Vigilante because there's a story there to tell.

I agree. I think it was a big mistake to make him comic relief and that he's a forgettable dude in a mask who can't fight. 

Canon Michael Holt/Mr. Terrific had a slick and chill-ness to him...brooding and badass and doesn't really care about attention. The main reason for him becoming Mr. Terrific had everything to do with his spouse's death and how he's so perfect at everything in his entire life - Olympian, scholar, fitness, intelligence, everything...that he on paper he was the perfect everything, and he couldn't save her. Also, really large in his motivation - before...devout Christian, because of her umm not insistence, but I guess existence...it made a believer out of him.  After her death, he became an instant atheist.

[Chaser]

Susan's "Felicity, right?"

I can't figure out if the actress is playing her as a passive aggressive snake or if she is suppose to suck so much at her job that she doesn't recognize her story's ex finance who was gunned down by a terrorist the night they got engaged.

[Sunshine]

Maybe no one realizes Felicity's importance to Oliver.  She is the ex-fiancee.  Most ex's don't continue to have relationships unless children are involved. Sometimes not even then.

The only photos originally on Prometheus's "list" are Lance, Diggle and Thea.  Evelyn brought Prometheus the pictures of Felicity, Curtis, Rory & Rene.  This says to me that Prometheus didn't know they were working together.

Regarding the Olicity flashback scene, I just noticed that it begins immediately after Curtis says "I have to be true to who I am."  Felicity looks at a red pen in a container.  Cue flashback sequence.  It ends with Oliver saying "Felicity, I believe in magic."  Next scene is Oliver telling Thea he remembers something.    The Olicity connection that can't be broken even by Oliver killing her boyfriend? LOL!    

[statsgirl]

I took Susan's "Felicity, right?" as a nasty powerplay.  "Oliver's mine and you can just suck it up, bitch."

I have the feeling that Susan works much better on paper than she does in the scenes. Yeah, it makes sense that Oliver would be intrigued by this smart, sexy woman and go to her (because poor woobie has no one else who loves him gag except everyone else in the previous scene) but she's so obviously Isabel V2 that I can't even love to hate her.  She's like a person sitting in front of me in the theatre blocking my view from what I came to see.

2 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I think the magic stuff is to blame on the decision to create a shared universe with the Flash, later Legends and now Supergirl more than on external factors.

I don't care much for relationship drama either but if they don't give meaningful relationships to the characters that make them look like humans I can't care much for them in general. I can watch a season if the plot is engaging but it's likely I get bored if I couldn't care less about the characters. The newbies for example could disappear tomorrow and I wouldn't even notice because they slapped masks on them without showing them as people first with the exception of Curtis, that I liked more last year while now he is a (pretty lame) vigilante for no apparent reason other than he has to be Mr Terrific.

I'm conflicted about that because while I don't want magic anywhere near this show (the crossover showed how ridiculous shooting arrows was compared to Kara or Barry or even Ray in his suit), Rory is the only new character I actually like.  And that includes Curtis who I loved last season but who has completely lost me this one.  He takes Felicity's line and worse he takes the jobs she would have been doing in a previous season and he's just painful to watch on the Team.  I don't know how they managed to blow this one so badly, to turn a popular character into one many of the audience want gone.

That said, I think the "I believe in magic" line in the red pen scene was more ship baiting i.e. Oliver believing in the magic of Felicity.   It's actually something that might have fit into the dream world of the last episode but wasn't anywhere near the real season 1 when Oliver only acknowledge Felicity as a useful and amusing tool. Nope, not buying it at all.

Edited December 10, 2016 by statsgirl

[Sunshine]

31 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Susan's "Felicity, right?"

I can't figure out if the actress is playing her as a passive aggressive snake or if she is suppose to suck so much at her job that she doesn't recognize her story's ex finance who was gunned down by a terrorist the night they got engaged.

She's never actually met her before so it's not an unusual way to put it.  She probably assumed they no longer interacted.

[statsgirl]

There were a zillion pictures of Oliver Queen and his fiance the Palmer Tech CEO over the news media last season, especially when she was proposed to at the gazebo and immediately fired at and paralyzed.

If Susan were a nice person, she'd say "You must be Felicity. I've heard so much about you, it's nice to finally meet you."  Instead she did the introduction in the most dismissive way possible next to "Who are you ?"

Edited December 10, 2016 by statsgirl

[Midnight Lullaby]

32 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I took Susan's "Felicity, right?" as a nasty powerplay.  "Oliver's mine and you can just suck it up, bitch."

I have the feeling that Susan works much better on paper than she does in the scenes. Yeah, it makes sense that Oliver would be intrigued by this smart, sexy woman and go to her (because poor woobie has no one else who loves him gag except everyone else in the previous scene) but she's so obviously Isabel V2 that I can't even love to hate her.  She's like a person sitting in front of me in the theatre blocking my view from what I came to see.

I'm conflicted about that because while I don't want magic anywhere near this show (the crossover showed how ridiculous shooting arrows was compared to Kara or Barry or even Ray in his suit), Rory is the only new character I actually like.  And that includes Curtis who I loved last season but who has completely lost me this one.  He takes Felicity's line and worse he takes the jobs she would have been doing in a previous season and he's just painful to watch on the Team.  I don't know how they managed to blow this one so badly, to turn a popular character into one many of the audience want gone.

That said, I think the "I believe in magic" line in the red pen scene was more ship baiting i.e. Oliver believing in the magic of Felicity.   It's actually something that might have fit into the dream world of the last episode but wasn't anywhere near the real season 1 when Oliver only acknowledge Felicity as a useful and amusing tool. Nope, not buying it at all.

The reporter doesn't work for me because all they showed her doing is creating issues for the Queens and trying to get close to Oliver, while Isabel was also showed working as CEO, so I felt they spent some time making her look like a real character. Also I liked that Isabel managed to manipulate Oliver when he thought he was manipulating her while here I have the feeling the reporter is going to end up being played.

Rory is the best new character for me too but if he left I could live without him. Also it's not like without him there's no magic on the show..look at who made an appearance at the end of the episode..they love to say the show is grounded but I think that ship has sailed.

The Olicity scene was ship baiting for me too..watching I thought it didn't fit in and Oliver remembering the address after four years was a bit ridiculous IMO. But I guess they had to give fans of the couple a little something to show they aren't done with them..

[DeadZeus]

Haven't seen the episode yet but i guess Promotheus makes GA look like a complete chump?

[Sunshine]

17 minutes ago, DeadZeus said:

Haven't seen the episode yet but i guess Promotheus makes GA look like a complete chump?

Only because the DA convinced Mayor Oliver to issue a shoot to kill order to the police.  I guess he thought he had to follow through.

[JenMD]

3 hours ago, Chaser said:

Susan's "Felicity, right?"

I can't figure out if the actress is playing her as a passive aggressive snake or if she is suppose to suck so much at her job that she doesn't recognize her story's ex finance who was gunned down by a terrorist the night they got engaged.

The writers are certainly doing Carly Pope no favors working so hard to ignore the history of their own show.  I don't think she's doing much with what she's given, imo, but she's also not being given much.  She had a line to Thea about how this year's party was such an improvement over last year's party that just made me roll my eyes.  I mean, really?  It was said with such a lack of sympathy, as if people getting kidnapped at gunpoint was nothing more than an inconvenience and annoying interruption in the festivities.  And Thea had no reaction.  It was weird direction and terrible writing and it bugged, even though it was supposed to be just some throwaway joke, I'm sure.

[BkWurm1]

5 hours ago, misstwpherecool said:

Too much relationship stufffff in any show can turn into annoying time filler in a hurry. Wether it be gratuitous sex or just dragged out scenes that take away from story time. It's fine to show who is currently with who and the status of the relationship but most else kills time.

Well what "too much" is, remains a personal preference.

 

11 minutes ago, JenMD said:

The writers are certainly doing Carly Pope no favors working so hard to ignore the history of their own show.  I don't think she's doing much with what she's given, imo, but she's also not being given much.  She had a line to Thea about how this year's party was such an improvement over last year's party that just made me roll my eyes.  I mean, really?  It was said with such a lack of sympathy, as if people getting kidnapped at gunpoint was nothing more than an inconvenience and annoying interruption in the festivities.  And Thea had no reaction.  It was weird direction and terrible writing and it bugged, even though it was supposed to be just some throwaway joke, I'm sure.

I don't think the writers remember that there was no City Hall Holiday party other than Oliver's candidate thrown party.  

[BunsenBurner]

This is the show where he broke his nose again right?  Stephen looked like his left eye was a black eye and the makeup crew did an awful job of covering it up In the scene with OQ and the DA asking for the shoot to kill order.

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I don't think the writers remember that there was no City Hall Holiday party other than Oliver's candidate thrown party.  

That's right, there was no Mayor last year. Haha. Are we supposed to assume Susan was at the Candidate party?

[AudienceofOne]

God that was awful. That's all I got right now.

Curtis' marriage just ended and he didn't agonise about it for even a second. So clearly that relationship was super strong.

Redshirt boyfriend turned out to be a redshirt. In episode 9. Episode 9! We're not even halfway through, he had about three scenes and Felicity didn't even seem to be that into him

Also, Oliver? You are such a dumbass. Even for you.

Go away, Laurel.

7 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I'm conflicted about that because while I don't want magic anywhere near this show (the crossover showed how ridiculous shooting arrows was compared to Kara or Barry or even Ray in his suit), Rory is the only new character I actually like. 

Ditto. Rory can actually act, his character is good, his emotional arc is powerful and the actor has a quiet charisma. It makes up for the fact that Rags Man is fucking ridiculous.

[Chyromaniac]

Quote

I would totally watch Worf lecturing Oliver about honor. Imagine the verbal smackdown Oliver would get if he tried to interrupt or interject at any time during this lecture.

Worf could barely get two words in with Picard and Riker - Oliver would have no trouble shooting him down.

[arjumand]

17 hours ago, JenMD said:

The writers are certainly doing Carly Pope no favors working so hard to ignore the history of their own show.  I don't think she's doing much with what she's given, imo, but she's also not being given much.  She had a line to Thea about how this year's party was such an improvement over last year's party that just made me roll my eyes.  I mean, really?  It was said with such a lack of sympathy, as if people getting kidnapped at gunpoint was nothing more than an inconvenience and annoying interruption in the festivities.  And Thea had no reaction.  It was weird direction and terrible writing and it bugged, even though it was supposed to be just some throwaway joke, I'm sure.

Yes to all this. Also, I was strangely sad when Oliver said the equivalent of "awesome Christmas party, Thea!", because I wanted to mumble "I thought it was a holiday party . . ." 

Oh, I get it. You actually have to be sleeping with a non-Christian to bother with diversity. Don't mind me, just bitter. 

Sure, it was just a throwaway comment, and we're supposed to accept all the lack of continuity in service to jokes and such, just like with the comment of 'better than last year ' (note to awesome reporter: you know people died last year right?) - I'm just so tired of the fact that apparently every year we're expected to erase everything and start from scratch. 

 I just remember all the gif sets of "It was a holiday party", from last year, when  Felicity was kidnapped and Oliver found her. I can't even look at them anymore - just makes me feel sad.

[statsgirl]

Yes!!!!! to expecting to us to erase everything that went on in previous seasons.  Or if I channel a crazed Olicity shipper, I"ll say that Oliver needs to be with Felicity to be a better person.

1 hour ago, Chyromaniac said:

Worf could barely get two words in with Picard and Riker - Oliver would have no trouble shooting him down.

Yes but DS-9 Worf was awesome.  It's all in whether the writers let the characters reach their potential.

[wonderwall]

2 hours ago, arjumand said:

Yes to all this. Also, I was strangely sad when Oliver said the equivalent of "awesome Christmas party, Thea!", because I wanted to mumble "I thought it was a holiday party . . ." 

Oh, I get it. You actually have to be sleeping with a non-Christian to bother with diversity. Don't mind me, just bitter. 

"Awesome Christmas party, Thea" actually makes me think that it was Thea who threw the party, not Oliver. And to be honest I doubt Thea thought too much about it. Can we blame Oliver for stuff that's actually under his purview? I doubt he had any say in this party.

Edited December 11, 2016 by wonderwall

[arjumand]

27 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

"Awesome Christmas party, Thea" actually makes me think that it was Thea who threw the party, not Oliver. And to be honest I doubt Thea thought too much about it. Can we blame Oliver for stuff that's under his purview? I doubt he had any say in this party.

That isn't at all what I meant, and I am aware that Thea threw the party.

 I objected to the fact that he's back to calling it a Christmas party, when last year so much was made about the fact that it could be called a holiday party instead, to include all faiths; I didn't mean the party was in any way different.

I also don't recall blaming Oliver (I meant the people who write him that way) for anything, only expressing some sadness and bitterness towards a show and EPs who expect their viewers to reset as fast as they do, in a "what a difference a year makes" kind of way.

Maybe flashpoint erased that too, who knows. 

Edited December 11, 2016 by arjumand

[wonderwall]

18 minutes ago, arjumand said:

That isn't at all what I meant, and I am aware that Thea threw the party.

 I objected to the fact that he's back to calling it a Christmas party, when last year so much was made about the fact that it could be called a holiday party instead, to include all faiths; I didn't mean the party was in any way different.

I also don't recall blaming Oliver (I meant the people who write him that way) for anything, only expressing some sadness and bitterness towards a show and EPs who expect their viewers to reset as fast as they do, in a "what a difference a year makes" kind of way.

Maybe flashpoint erased that too, who knows. 

Sorry I didn't understand your point. 

IIRC it was Felicity who was correcting him and everyone else most of the episode, then when Felicity herself called it a Christmas Party he corrected her. I think it's just default to a guy like Oliver to call it a Christmas party because that's what they celebrated every year since he was a kid. To him it's a Christmas party. And tbh I didn't even see Kwanzaa or Hanukkah decorations so I guess it's more on the writers and set decorators. 

I also doubt the EPs went in and specifically told everyone to make it a Christmas party instead of a Holiday party. I think this time the blame goes to Wendy/Beth - the screenwriters - for that oversight. Shame because Beth is Jewish who supposedly teaches Emily about Jewish faith. 

Edited December 11, 2016 by wonderwall

[arjumand]

2 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Sorry I didn't understand your point. 

IIRC it was Felicity who was correcting him and everyone else most of the episode, then when Felicity herself called it a Christmas Party he corrected her. I think it's just default to a guy like Oliver to call it a Christmas party because that's what they celebrated every year since he was a kid. To him it's a Christmas party. And tbh I didn't even see Kwanzaa or Hanukkah decorations so I guess it's more on the writers and set decorators. 

I also doubt the EPs went in and specifically told everyone to make it a Christmas party instead of a Holiday party. I think this time the blame goes to Wendy/Beth - the screenwriters - who didn't write that in. Shame because Beth is Jewish who supposedly teaches Emily about Jewish faith. 

I agree with you that not much thought was given to this, which makes it even worse, IMO, because this year Oliver's the mayor! It's even more important for him to be inclusive now!

I don't think there needed to be Hanukkah etc decorations, though that would have been nice.

What there could have been is a little change on dialogue - Thea might have asked "how do you like my Christmas party?" and Oliver could have answered "Holiday party, and it's awesome!"

it would have been a neat little wink to last year, much better than the "red pen flashback" which so never happened.

But it just goes to show that we think so much more about this stuff than the people whose job it is to write it. 

[Lady Calypso]

46 minutes ago, arjumand said:

I agree with you that not much thought was given to this, which makes it even worse, IMO, because this year Oliver's the mayor! It's even more important for him to be inclusive now!

I don't think there needed to be Hanukkah etc decorations, though that would have been nice.

What there could have been is a little change on dialogue - Thea might have asked "how do you like my Christmas party?" and Oliver could have answered "Holiday party, and it's awesome!"

it would have been a neat little wink to last year, much better than the "red pen flashback" which so never happened.

But it just goes to show that we think so much more about this stuff than the people whose job it is to write it. 

Agreed. And it's a shame because in this exact same episode, in the Arrow Cave, I believe Rory's talking about decorations and specifically mentions lighting the menorah so it's not like they've forgotten about the Jewish faith. So if Diggle, Wild Dog, and Rory can be inclusive in the Arrow Cave, it's disappointing that Thea and Oliver don't seem to with their bigger, more public party. 

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, arjumand said:

What there could have been is a little change on dialogue - Thea might have asked "how do you like my Christmas party?" and Oliver could have answered "Holiday party, and it's awesome!"

it would have been a neat little wink to last year, much better than the "red pen flashback" which so never happened.

And proof that Felicity really did make a difference in his hero's journey.

[wonderwall]

1 hour ago, arjumand said:

I agree with you that not much thought was given to this, which makes it even worse, IMO, because this year Oliver's the mayor! It's even more important for him to be inclusive now!

I don't think there needed to be Hanukkah etc decorations, though that would have been nice.

What there could have been is a little change on dialogue - Thea might have asked "how do you like my Christmas party?" and Oliver could have answered "Holiday party, and it's awesome!"

it would have been a neat little wink to last year, much better than the "red pen flashback" which so never happened.

But it just goes to show that we think so much more about this stuff than the people whose job it is to write it. 

Oh for sure... Although I never thought the Arrow writers' forte was in their attention to detail. I honestly don't think they're really that smart. 

[Hiveminder]

7 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Yes but DS-9 Worf was awesome.  It's all in whether the writers let the characters reach their potential.

Huh. Sounds familiar. 

[ElleMo]

On 12/7/2016 at 10:15 PM, thuganomics85 said:

I didn't notice it the first few times, but Prometheus' voice really sounds like Michael Dorn/Worf from Star Trek.  But, instead, they think he's actually the son of one of Oliver's victims during the "Hood" days.  We'll see.  I did enjoy the flashbacks and the return to a more murdery Oliver and Diggle trying to be his voice of reason/conscience.  And back when Oliver and Felicity barely knew each other, and she was awkwardly putting her foot in her mouth around him.

 

1

Sounded like Worf to me too. I am glad I am not the only one who thought so.  

Edited December 13, 2016 by ElleMo