S01.E10: Last Christmas

[J.D.]

24 minutes ago, candall said:

There's some show I watch that's written with so much attention to detail, there's no throwaway dialogue or questionable action for the sake of blocking.  (Which is where I would put this unexpected response from Beth, if it turns out nothing comes of it--i.e. they engaged in that discussion simply to give suicide guy an opportunity to exit into the party instead of over the ledge.)

I totally understand when writers create a diversion to allow another character to take an action, but they could have just as easily had Beth ask Randall a question, "Honey, you have to come watch so-an-so.  He's about to sing Christmas Carols" or "Honey, I know how much you love shrimp and they just brought out another platter.  Would you like me to fix you a plate?" Having Beth respond the way she did didn't make sense nor fit her character.  YMMV.  :D

Edited December 14, 2016 by J.D.
It's too early to proofread. :)

[ShadowFacts]

4 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I'm getting freaked out reading all the blood clot/PE comments. I've been flying every 2-3 weeks this year for work, plus international flights to visit family, and now I feel like a ticking time bomb.

It's getting a lot more attention, but DVTs are still very uncommon, especially if you don't have risk factors.  There are little leg movements you can do while seated, if you can't/it isn't convenient to get up and walk around a lot.  Toby actually has a higher risk of having cardiac problems than embolism from DVT, but obesity puts him at risk for both.  I'm just happy they are no longer in Pittsburgh, or Dr. K might be operating on him. 

[OtterMommy]

9 hours ago, WicketyWack said:

And, who grows up celebrating Christmas but doesn't know the name of Santa's reindeer? WTF Rebecca and Randall.

To be fair, I'm not sure I could recite them all.....  

[BoogieBurns]

3 hours ago, J.D. said:

Having Beth respond the way she did didn't make sense nor fit her character.  YMMV.  :D

I don't know if this is me agreeing or not with you, but I am sure I would have said "don't tell me what I can't do," (or whatever Beth said on the roof) in that situation. So, I'm not normally a "Beth" but in this episode I was. Rather, she was a Boogie.

[Guest]

I think they wanted to allow the character to exit but also to show more of Beth's feistiness, and maybe Randall's protectiveness.  I agree it was clunky.  But I think I've seen plenty of Beth's brand of spunk already, too.  

Edited December 14, 2016 by Guest

[pennben]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

  But I think I've seen plenty of Beth's brand of spunk already, too.  

Mr. Grant would not like Beth!:)

[Crs97]

My first reaction would be to stop, look around, and ask what's wrong.  If my husband looked as panicked as Randall, I wouldn't decide it was time for a manners lecture.  The more I think about it, the less I seem to like Beth.  Hmmmm.

[Mom2twoNonna2-3]

IMDB has Chris Sullivan listed in 13 episodes, same as the other main cast members.

[Cowgirl]

Watch out William -- Dennis O'Hare is an amazing actor, but his character usually kills someone grotesquely or dies himself in a horrific manner!  (At least if you are a TruBlood or American Horror Story fan.) I wouldn't be too surprised if he didn't just knife Toby in the back while no one was looking.

[chocolatine]

50 minutes ago, Cowgirl said:

Watch out William -- Dennis O'Hare is an amazing actor, but his character usually kills someone grotesquely or dies himself in a horrific manner!  (At least if you are a TruBlood or American Horror Story fan.) I wouldn't be too surprised if he didn't just knife Toby in the back while no one was looking.

I've only seen him on The Good Wife as a snarky judge, so I'm expecting him to out-quip everybody.

[SueB]

I'm having withdrawals.  I may start a rewatch next week. 

[OtterMommy]

12 minutes ago, SueB said:

I'm having withdrawals.  I may start a rewatch next week. 

I'm doing a re-watch now...although of all the shows I watch, this one probably needs the re-watch the least (which is why I'm watching it and not one of those shows that have become background noise for me).

[SlackerInc]

7 hours ago, Crs97 said:

My first reaction would be to stop, look around, and ask what's wrong.  If my husband looked as panicked as Randall, I wouldn't decide it was time for a manners lecture.  The more I think about it, the less I seem to like Beth.  Hmmmm.

Join the club!  Plenty of room for all.  :)

2 hours ago, Cowgirl said:

Watch out William -- Dennis O'Hare is an amazing actor, but his character usually kills someone grotesquely or dies himself in a horrific manner!  (At least if you are a TruBlood or American Horror Story fan.) I wouldn't be too surprised if he didn't just knife Toby in the back while no one was looking.

That's so funny, because I know him from a bunch of stuff, but none of them are particularly violent roles: TGW, Milk, Baby Mama, Charlie Wilson's War, Half Nelson, and Brief Interviews With Hideous Men (those last two BTW are kind of "hidden gems" that I recommend highly).

[BoogieBurns]

@SlackerInc who was he in Baby Mama?

[talktoomuch]

20 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Oh please don't let Randall have imagined the whole suicidal colleague thing. So trite.

he needn't be bipolar to spend money on himself when he feels a little down- that's why the phrase retail therapy was invented. 

I know some of us are worried about this show becoming too Randall-centric (and I get it), but I think this would be a prime opportunity to touch on the propensity for over-driven perfectionists to have anxiety or mania issues fed by the intense need to be perfect all the time.

[buckboard]

1 hour ago, BoogieBurns said:

@SlackerInc who was he in Baby Mama?

When you want to know what else an actor has been on, try www.imdb.com.

Dennis O'Hare was Dr. Manheim on "Baby Mama."    (Note - IMDB is slow to get the current episode guests on, so if you want to know who is guesting as you're watching an episode and didn't catch their name, you may not find him or her there that night.)

[bros402]

18 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

It's getting a lot more attention, but DVTs are still very uncommon, especially if you don't have risk factors.  There are little leg movements you can do while seated, if you can't/it isn't convenient to get up and walk around a lot.  Toby actually has a higher risk of having cardiac problems than embolism from DVT, but obesity puts him at risk for both.  I'm just happy they are no longer in Pittsburgh, or Dr. K might be operating on him. 

Dr. K would be a very cordial zombie doctor.

[SlackerInc]

7 hours ago, BoogieBurns said:

@SlackerInc who was he in Baby Mama?

Here's a clip, but there's a big spoiler, so anyone who hasn't seen the movie, you were warned!
 

[Cowgirl]

14 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

Join the club!  Plenty of room for all.  :)

That's so funny, because I know him from a bunch of stuff, but none of them are particularly violent roles: TGW, Milk, Baby Mama, Charlie Wilson's War, Half Nelson, and Brief Interviews With Hideous Men (those last two BTW are kind of "hidden gems" that I recommend highly).

@SlackerInc, cool!  I will have to check these out!  Sorry I can't watch the clip right now, but I am at work...slacking. O'Hare must be so versatile!  It's hard for me to picture him in a non-violent role after TrueBlood and American Horror story though.  He is just SO bloody ruthless or blood-covered (or both) in those shows! But he's a great comic in them as well. 

[SanDiegoInExile]

On 12/14/2016 at 0:30 PM, Mom2twoNonna2one said:

IMDB has Chris Sullivan listed in 13 episodes, same as the other main cast members.

If anything, we know the show time shifts around.  Toby can be dead (though I don't think he is).  He can be seen in flashbacks or perhaps part of the Kate storyline will be that she imagines seeing him while she sorts through issues. Not really Ghost Toby......but close.

Edited December 18, 2016 by SanDiegoInExile

[breezy424]

Yeah, they may be dead but that doesn't mean they're gone from the show.  We shall see.....

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, SanDiegoInExile said:

If anything, we know the show time shifts around.  Toby can be dead (though I don't think he is).  He can be seen in flashbacks or perhaps part of the Kate storyline will be that she imagines seeing him while she sorts through issues. Not really Ghost Tony......but close.

I was going to click like on this...until I got to Ghost Toby.  There is nothing likable about that idea....

Edited December 16, 2016 by OtterMommy

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, OtterMommy said:

I was going to click like on this...until I got to Ghost Toby.  There is nothing likable about that idea....

Yes, Ghost Jack during the 'shroom trip was more than enough. I don't need to see any more ghosts on this show, ever.

[Guest]

But the ghosts like dead Jack are so good at exposition and anvils.  "See the three locks on the doors, again?  See mom's anxiety that someone will get in and take her babies?   Look, she's practically hysterical with fear.  She just really loves you, Randall.  You don't have the whole picture."  

It's like The Night Before Christmas or It's A Wonderful Life.  Or Ghost.  How fun would a scene of Kate and ghost Toby using a pottery wheel be?  ; )  "I can almost feel him!  And smell his spaghetti."  

Edited December 22, 2016 by Guest

[Dminches]

On 12/14/2016 at 3:10 AM, chocolatine said:

I'm getting freaked out reading all the blood clot/PE comments. I've been flying every 2-3 weeks this year for work, plus international flights to visit family, and now I feel like a ticking time bomb.

No reason to get freaked out.  My rule of thumb is to stay hydrated and get up every hour. 

[OtterMommy]

Quote

  ON 12/14/2016 AT 0:10 AM, CHOCOLATINE SAID:

I'm getting freaked out reading all the blood clot/PE comments. I've been flying every 2-3 weeks this year for work, plus international flights to visit family, and now I feel like a ticking time bomb.

Quote

No reason to get freaked out.  My rule of thumb is to stay hydrated and get up every hour. 

Yeah, even though DVT is serious, it isn't super common.  I think we are just more likely to hear about it when it happens (because it isn't common), which makes it seem more common than it is.  As @Dminches said, drink your water and get some steps in and you should be fine!

[chocolatine]

19 minutes ago, Dminches said:

No reason to get freaked out.  My rule of thumb is to stay hydrated and get up every hour. 

 

7 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

Yeah, even though DVT is serious, it isn't super common.  I think we are just more likely to hear about it when it happens (because it isn't common), which makes it seem more common than it is.  As @Dminches said, drink your water and get some steps in and you should be fine!

Thanks, you guys are making me feel better. 

[mojito]

Quote

Mr. Grant would not like Beth!:)

@pennben, you sure drew out all the geezers with this comment. That's from over 45 years ago! (I, of course, learned about it from my grandma...) Thanks for the chuckle.

[kat165]

mojito, some day you'll be a geezer too. :)

And btw, if Mr. Grant is a reference to the Mary Tyler Moore show, it lives on in re-runs & is available to folks of all ages. :)

[Love2dance]

On 12/10/2016 at 3:11 PM, Clawdette said:

The nothing bad happens on Christmas Eve is one of those sayings that is good intentioned but we all know is not really true. One Christmas Eve my husband was found to have a huge tumor that turned out to be Stage IV renal cell carcinoma.  Our children were grown so we didn't go down the "nothing bad" route and while we miss my husband on Christmas Eve, it hasn't ruined the holiday for us. 

I am so sorry. May his memories give you and your children comfort.

[Portia]

On 12/19/2016 at 7:10 PM, mojito said:

That's from over 45 years ago! 

I came here to correct you, Mojito. Then I did the math. God, I'm old.

[mojito]

You ain't alone, sister. I didn't have to use Wikipedia to look it up. 

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Portia said:

I came here to correct you, Mojito. Then I did the math. God, I'm old.

Me too.  Mr. Grant is even older.  But still alive, along with almost all the cast except for Ted.  Pretty impressive longevity. 

[love2lovebadtv]

On 12/8/2016 at 4:13 AM, lucindabelle said:

Isn't he a millionaire several times over from his tv show?  An off Broadway show is a few hundred thousand at most. And regional productions can easily be in the millions. That said this was clearly a small off off house. Nitpick: it's bizarre that they were rehearsing onstage. That is almost never done because it's just too expensive. You don't get in the space until you load on: you're in a rehearsal room. If they are rehearsing onstage it means nobody else is renting the space and it's so cheap they would never be able to pay everyone- equity waiver- OR a resident theater but in NY those are all off Broadway not off off and again- you aren't using the space until tech. Sorry I know nobody cares but equity stage manager here and this particular point annoys me. They did the same thing on Girls.

 

jewish jersey girl here and gotta say, "Hanukkah dinner" isn't a thing. I mean you might spend a night of it with family and eat latkes but it is NOT a big holiday like thanksgiving or Passover and "telling the story" isn't part of it (again that's Passover). It actually would have made more sense as a Hanukkah party because some people do have them but to present it as if it's some typical Jewish family thing, just no.

 

also the bottle of manoschewitz was overkill. I don't know anyone who does not drink that ironically only. Had it been a flashback to the 70s, ok, otherwise no.

 

to the person who thought doctors charm would have been dead because he was in his 70s when the kids were born: then as now, loads of people did live into their 80s. So if he was early 70s or even mid no particular reason he'd be dead 10 years later. He did looks  exactly the same though. 

 

i also wondered if Andy weren't a hallucination. 

I know people can be bi but it kind of felt like the show forgot....

 

But anything to keep Denis O'Hare on my screen and thank G-D we got to find out what happened to the cat! (I REALLY wanted someone to bring the cat to NJ, & have it live in Randall's room. As in The Night Of).

I get what you're saying.  But I didn't get the impression that the show was portraying the family traditions as typical:  Hanukkah dinner,  which some Jewish families do and others don't; Christmas Eve party versus Christmas day dinner, etc.  The storytelling at Hanukkah I've never seen but it fit in nicely with the Sloane's family dinner just the way a scripture reading,  while not typical, might fit in at a family's Christmas Eve celebration instead of booze and Santa. 

[love2lovebadtv]

On 12/8/2016 at 0:01 AM, Court said:

Miguel has two kids with Shelly. Who knows where they are.

He could very well have grandkids of his own. Perhaps even great-grandkids? His kids were older than the big 3.

[OtterMommy]

3 minutes ago, love2lovebadtv said:

He could very well have grandkids of his own. Perhaps even great-grandkids? His kids were older than the big 3.

I would say that great-grandkids would be pushing it, but my 37 year old niece just became a grandmother..... (I'm only a few years older and I refuse to acknowledge that I'm a great-great-aunt!)

I have mixed feelings about seeing his kids.  I think it is inevitable that they will show up sometime, but I don't think the show needs to expand the big 3 dynamic to include step-siblings.

[AmandaPanda]

@OtterMommy, that's basically how I feel, too. At this point, 2016/17 Miguel is hardly a character. He's kind of set dressing in a lot of ways. I don't want to see his kids until they've fully fleshed out his character.

[love2lovebadtv]

On 12/7/2016 at 11:27 PM, SueB said:

My father died when I was 12.  I wandered around his floor, alone, ALL the time.  It was 1975.

Understandable under the circumstances. That's tough for the family to deal with,  including you as a kid. 

But I  a case like Jack and Rebecca, where both parents are healthy and the kids who are around 10 are roaming the halls...not a great idea. And certainly something that could have been avoided 

22 hours ago, AmandaPanda said:

@OtterMommy, that's basically how I feel, too. At this point, 2016/17 Miguel is hardly a character. He's kind of set dressing in a lot of ways. I don't want to see his kids until they've fully fleshed out his character.

I agree rr: Miguel. But I don't really care for him or his bad makeup job.  So I thought it would be nice if he skipped some occasions with the Pearsons so he could spend time with his own children & grandchildren. 

On 12/7/2016 at 3:19 PM, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Everything is open to interpetation, so I'm not going to tell you you're wrong if you fell for it!

It's just that for me, I'm annoyed that romance is a man a) ignoring what a woman told him, ie, "we're broken up" b) not having any indication that she has changed her mind and c) showing up somewhere uninvited in front of a large group of people where she is put on the spot.  OtterMommy really nailed it in her post (I'm assuming a mommy is a she :)  And of course, it's all okay because it turns out that's what she really wanted all along! And I do think Kate was happy to see Toby, it's just that it always works out that way in tv and movies. It makes the dismissing of women's feelings, pushing of boundaries and steamrolling something romantic instead of disturbing.  

And it doesn't work the other way around either.  When Kate pushed boundaries, ie, calling Toby after they had broken up and expecting to be able to vent and receive support from him, he rightfully shut her down.

I think Kate broke up with him for more than his diet, too.  I think she said something along the lines of "I need to get a handle on the weight.  I need to get a handle on all of it."  I think she was saying that she had things to work on separate from him.  But either way, Toby should discuss it with her rather than just declare that he is giving up junk food for himself and for her but not even ask how she is feeling about the whole issue.

You're so right but I still fell for it. Apparently I'm a sucker for big romantic gestures in books as long as it's on TV and not my family's Christmas Eve celebration lol.  I always thought Toby could be annoying and ignorant of boundaries but yea I still fell for it. Especially when I saw the look on Kate's face. 

[topanga]

5 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

You're so right but I still fell for it. Apparently I'm a sucker for big romantic gestures in books as long as it's on TV and not my family's Christmas Eve celebration lol.  I always thought Toby could be annoying and ignorant of boundaries but yea I still fell for it. Especially when I saw the look on Kate's face. 

Toby and Kate are both weird about boundaries. They seem to enjoy trampling on each other's. Remember when Kate stalked Toby's ex and got a job with her? Or as the other poster reminded me, when Kate called Toby after they'd broken up just because she needed someone to talk to. 

[love2lovebadtv]

On 12/7/2016 at 5:08 PM, saber5055 said:

Well, first off, congrats to this show for that doctor giving Kate real info on what happens with a gastric bypass. It's not just a "drop in, get surgery, lose weight, look great" thing. What was up with Rebecca being all kinds of socially awkward during that visit though. She's got some real issues and is the one who needs help IMO. And what was up with a doctor giving a routine pre-surgery interview of Christmas Eve, for pete's sake? Then when William is revealed to have a boyfriend who wants to spend his last days with him, all I could think was, AWKWARD. Are they both going to live in his room at Randall's house? What a no-win situation. And what's up with the daughter being able to spot gay/bi at first meeting. That's too precocious for me. Then, WTH is with Toby, flying across the country and dropping in UNINVITED on his EX girlfriend who BROKE UP WITH YOU. What a douche. For all he knew, Kate was there with her current man, like Kevin was with his current squeeze. I continue to hate Toby for being all ME, ME, ME. I never wanted to see him again so was all kinds of bummed when he showed up (breathing heavily and irritatingly). Not that I wanted him to die, I just wanted him to remain ... gone. And forgotten.

LOL at thinking Toby left this moral coil happy because he had sex. We can only assume there was sex and it was good. That is not always the case. Plus it was horrid of Kate to take Toby upstairs in her brother's house, and with kids around. What, does she have a room at Randall's? Or did they use Randall/Beth's bed? If so, just a big EWWWW to that.

I do think it was a little presumptuous of Toby. But not all that much because he knew the details so I'm wondering if Kate has talked to him off screen. They only dated a little while and I know he was planning to go to Randall's for Thanksgiving but how else would he know where to find her on Christmas Eve? Also, Kate has called him between Thanksgiving and Christmas so he probably figures she was still available since it's only been a matter of weeks. I do think it was gross and in poor taste that Kate couldn't wait to have sex. They could have gone wherever he was going to be staying, assuming he had a hotel room. If not, then at least her mother's house where she actually has a room with her own bed would have been better.  

I doubt Jesse will be staying at Randall's. I don't even understand why William stays there all the time knowing he's uprooted one of the little girls from her room. 

Regarding the gay/bi comment, I thought Tess was referring to William and the fact that he and his new friend seemed to be more than friends. I didn't think she just spotted Jesse and said he was gay. I thought she drew that conclusion based on their behavior with each other. I think she said, "Grandpa's gay. Or at least bi." Not sure if I heard correctly. 

On 12/7/2016 at 6:27 PM, HeySandyStrange said:

To me, the whole reveal of William's boyfriend Jesse worked so well because it could've easily been is his girlfriend Jessie that told him off. In other words, they didn't hit us over the head with the "They are Gay! GAY, I tell you! Look at how Gay they are!" It just felt like every human moment, just like it would've been between a hetero couple. And kudos to William and Jesse's actors, they had good chemistry with each other and I could really feel the tenderness, love and even passion between them.

I agree. The real news is that William was in a relationship and how he left things when Randall came knocking on his door. That relationship could have been with a man or a woman; the gender wasn't the point. 

On 12/7/2016 at 6:30 PM, SnarkKitty said:

Army Wives. Get you some (7 seasons) while you wait for the show to come back.

Yep, that's where I first spotted him. I liked this show. Talk about drama lol.

On 12/7/2016 at 7:28 PM, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

It's actually a beautiful thing for me to see, still being partly in the closet. Seeing the way everyone recognized that William was bi, then immediately accept it, gave me an enormous amount of hope. Especially since we see much more representation of the LG than the BT (and oh, what the people who fall under the Q+ part of the acronym go through seeking honest, accurate depictions). And I love that the focus is on how William found a late life love who cherishes him, not on the coming out aspect. Queer people are so much more complex than how we come out/transition. 

Yes, I loved how this was done, too. The point was that William has a late-life relationship. We know that he loved Randall's mother but it seems that was short lived. We know about his music and addiction issues. Knowing that he had a recent relationship with someone who had also struggled with addiction gives us more insight.  It makes his character more well rounded. 

On 12/7/2016 at 8:02 PM, OtterMommy said:

I assumed it was at the office...but then I re-watched the ep today and I think it might have been at his swanky residence.

I still think Christmas Eve is a strange day to have that sort of work function.  I also think that days are about 48 hours long in this universe.  When Beth and Randall got home, they immediately started getting their girls ready for bed...and then there was a party.  And it didn't seem like people just showed up at a late hour.  Instead, it seemed like everyone arrived when they had originally planned.  I don't get it...

There really isn't a reason for it.  This episode could have been structure so the present-day story took place over 12/23-24 or 12/24-25.  Just because the flashback took place over a few hours on 12/24 doesn't mean that the present-day had to match up exactly.

I think the party was at the boss' residence. Sometimes people thrown around street names and don't think NYers will notice. But there are no firms of that kind on 2nd Avenue. Also, it seemed to be a different environment from what we've seen of Randall's office previously. Christmas Eve is a strange day to have a work function but as I understood it, that was the boss' way of wielding his power over the staff. 

But I think their Christmas Eve plans were probably less structured and were later in the evening. Many families actually get together after church so having something late is not uncommon. When I was a kid we used to open presents at midnight. The Christmas Eve gathering started after what was normally my bedtime. But yea, this show is generally not that great with time lol. 

 

On 12/7/2016 at 8:37 PM, possibilities said:

I somehow missed the reference to Clooney's current living situation-- can someone fill me in?

I think that was an NA (Narcotics Anonymous) meeting, not AA.

I thought Kate was explicit that her breaking up with Toby was only because he wasn't doing the weight  loss thing-- and that when he showed up, he knew she might reject him, anyway. I personally would have hated what he did, but I think it's in character for Kate to like it. If she had said no, he'd have had to go home or get a hotel (on Xmas! Good luck!) or sleep at the airport waiting for a flight, but he seems like the kind of person who wouldn't mind that the way I would. He's all spontaneity and I am not. But I've known people who were, and it seems to work for them. It doesn't mean they don't take no for an answer, it just means they don't mind the risk. I think the way they are writing him could go either way. He was terrible in the football episode, so maybe as Kate gets more confident we will in fact see that he doesn't take no for an answer. But I can't tell yet whether that's what they are setting up, or if they really are just a couple that is supposed to get off on the drama.

I'm pretty sure that was an NA meeting. 

No idea where they're going with the Toby drama. If he lives, Kate will probably be taking care of him at Rebecca's house. If he dies, I think Kate will be in serious mourning. Either way, I don't think the Toby-haters will be happy. 

On 12/7/2016 at 10:20 PM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Once kids find out that the Santa story is made up, what happens to any belief they might have held in God's existence?  Wouldn't an 8 year old assume that if one were made up, they both were?  I've always wondered.  (And if you add in the tooth fairy. . . .)

No Santa in my house. If others want to do it, I say fine. But I think the actual Christmas story is quite beautiful and we just stick with that. I'm not opposed to decorations or anything and I enjoy different kinds of festivities but I didn't go the Santa route and we're all fine.  

On 12/8/2016 at 11:48 AM, OtterMommy said:

Pregnancy...I HOPE that doesn't happen.  This show is not yet to a point where they can start contemplating another generation (not including Randall's girls).

That being said....it is TOTALLY the set up for a pregnancy.  Quickie sex, especially when it was hinted earlier in the season that Kate is not on any birth control, is a show runners baby dream.  Kate is also on the verge of having a surgery that could put the show in a weird place as far as her weight vs. Chrissy Metz's weight.  A pregnancy takes it all off the table.  It also creates a situation, especially if Toby dies, where she has to rely on her family.

Ugh, I DO NOT WANT A KATE PREGNANCY!  PLEASE, NO BABIES!!!!!  I love this show so far, and I've seen too many shows ruined by badly-done baby plots!

I missed the hint that Kate's not on birth control. Was that during her doctor visit? A pregnancy could be interesting.  I dunno, depends on how it's done. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

40 minutes ago, love2lovebadtv said:

A pregnancy could be interesting.  I dunno, depends on how it's done. 

Also quite dangerous.  Gestational diabetes for Kate, a huge baby who comes with problems of its own - I really don't think they should go there at this point in the story.

[love2lovebadtv]

On 12/28/2016 at 10:17 PM, AmandaPanda said:

@OtterMommy, that's basically how I feel, too. At this point, 2016/17 Miguel is hardly a character. He's kind of set dressing in a lot of ways. I don't want to see his kids until they've fully fleshed out his character.

 

On 12/14/2016 at 5:47 PM, chocolatine said:

I've only seen him on The Good Wife as a snarky judge, so I'm expecting him to out-quip everybody.

THAT'S who that was! I didn't recognize him from anything else that the other posters mentioned but I knew  I had seen him somewhere. Thank you. 

On 12/14/2016 at 9:25 AM, OtterMommy said:

To be fair, I'm not sure I could recite them all.....  

Me either. 

 

On 12/28/2016 at 10:17 PM, AmandaPanda said:

@OtterMommy, that's basically how I feel, too. At this point, 2016/17 Miguel is hardly a character. He's kind of set dressing in a lot of ways. I don't want to see his kids until they've fully fleshed out his character.

No interest in seeing his family but I'm wondering if he'll ever go and be with them sometimes. I feel like there's a story here but it hasn't been told yet so for now he's just taking up space with his bad makeup. 

 

On 12/8/2016 at 7:53 PM, buckboard said:

It doesn't seen off at all to me, but quite normal.  First of all, as far as the family knows, Kevin and Sloan have just begun to date, they're not engaged to be married or even seriously involved.  (Although a majority of non-Orthodox Jews DO intermarry, so even if they were, it's not that unusual.)  Visiting the home of a friend of a different religion to see decorations and have a special meal is pretty common. I used to visit my Christian friends at Christmas all the time.  It's not as if they're attending midnight mass together or deciding which religion to raise their children.  

Also, Sloan's family's telling the story of Chanukah is her family's particular tradition, like the Pearson's Thanksgiving traditions.  They have a special meal and someone tells their version of the story of the holiday, but most Jewish people I know - including my family - just light the menorah and have latkes.  

It's like Randall's family gathering at his home Christmas Eve.  Other Christian families don't get together - if at all - until Christmas Day.  It's not a structured activity, like a Passover seder or a church service.

So much this.

A lot has been said about inaccurate portrayals on the show, but seeing the different family traditions is one of my favorite parts of the show. Within my own family we have traditions that are totally different from those my husband and I grew up with. Even my parents who are from the same small town didn't have the same traditions. I especially loved Sloan's family gathering because the storytelling reminded me of the kinds of things I have my family do during holiday celebrations. It helps remind everyone why we're celebrating and it provides some clarity for guests, too.  I am Christian and dated a Jewish boy for years and also have many Jewish friends (many of whom are from my church).  Celebrations could even vary from one aunt's house to the next. If/when Kevin & Kate have their own families, their traditions will likely change to fit their lifestyles. 

 

On 12/8/2016 at 8:01 PM, possibilities said:

 

I'm Jewish and I've dated non-Jews, and brought them to family events, including holidays, as well as attended theirs. In the world I live in, it's very common behavior. We've invited guests to seders, and candle-lightings, and every other possible event. Some of us intermarried. And we're not by any means unusual. If there are still some families who frown on intermarriage, they are not the only ones who are observant. It's just not true. I've even been at synagogue events where there are intermarried participants. Some object, but others welcome. I'm talking about people who keep kosher and so on-- it's not just the super-lax, it's a widespread phenomenon.

I personally despise Christmas, but when you love someone, you support them and allow them to be who they are. It's not a repudiation of your own identity or beliefs, it's just being a decent human being and not a control freak. If Kevin had said he couldn't date Sloan because she's Jewish and has not accepted his Lord and Savior? I would have been off-put by that for sure. And Chanukah is nothing, really. People attend their friends' bar mitzvahs and weddings, they invite the stranger to sit at the Passover table, surely there is room for Kevin when latkes are on the menu. I don't know why I'm so worked up about this. I guess I'm just really surprised to hear this aspect of the show being criticized. I was actually relieved they made some effort to at least acknowledge that not everyone is obsessed with Santa this time of year.

In the Thanksgiving episode, Randall told Rebecca he'd see her at Christmas, not that he'd hash it out with her there. I would have wanted to see them talk about things, but doing it AT Christmas doesn't seem like the right time, especially with all the guests. I think he was willing to have her there, but wasn't quite ready to move past it completely. I think that's realistic. Sometimes you aren't over something, but you don't want to completely sever ties. I don't know if the show will follow up or not, but I hope they do.

I was glad Randall opted not to hash things out with Rebecca at their Christmas Eve gathering. The Thanksgiving drama was awful. They should really do that on their own time and let the family & guests enjoy the festivities. But I DO want to get to the bottom of Rebecca's fears. 

I, too, have been surprised that other people are surprised about the family celebrations. I hope the show continues to show the cast honoring their own traditions, creating new ones, and respecting and appreciating others traditions. 

 

On 12/8/2016 at 10:25 PM, Dowel Jones said:

I finally watched this, and offer a few random thoughts:

When Toby said he flew six HOURS to get there, my first thought was "Did you get on a twin engine Cessna or what?"  Granted, there is a myriad of things that can turn a cross country flight into an ordeal, but that was my reaction.

Santa Claus: Several months after Christmas I was walking through the dept. store with my then 8 year old daughter, who noticed the bicycle display had bikes just like hers.  I replied that the store was where I got hers for Christmas.  "Oh.  I thought Santa brought that for me."  Thud.  Excuse me while I move this anvil out of the aisle.

Everything else paled before Randall's comment about Chloe not being able to forgive Andy during the confrontation scene.  That put his (Andy's) life into perspective.

The line "Nothing bad happens on Christmas Eve" took me all the way back to a China Beach episode, when the overworked mortician is filling out reports on soldiers killed in action.  He enters 12/25 as date of death, because, as he put it "No one dies on Christmas Eve."

Toby was coming from California, I thought. Six hours is an accurate flight time from California to NYC/NJ.

That China Beach quote sounds so eerie. Now I’m thinking that this late get-together, Toby getting sick after all the fun, will mean that maybe he’s going to die on Christmas Day. Poor Toby. 

 

On 12/14/2016 at 5:07 AM, J.D. said:

That last part totally threw me off too.  I mean, Beth and Randall had an earlier disagreement about the boat, but it wasn't like they were fighting.  No voices had been raised.  It was all very normal and civilized.  So why did she react so snarky later on?  If Beth and Randall had just had a heated argument, then she would have had reason to believe Randall was still mad and that the fight was carrying over to the balcony, and her reaction would have been justified.  However, this is a man she knows and loves and for all intents and purposes is a mild mannered, generous person who isn't prone to having rude outburst.  The urgency and tone in his voice should have tipped Beth off that something bad was about to happen and that either (a) Randall is trying to shield her from it or (b) he's trying to signal -- 'Go get help!.'  

Beth's "DON'T YOU TALK TO ME THAT WAY--!!!!" response made me lose a little respect for her.  

I think she thought he was trying to keep her out of the boat conversation.and she wanted to make sure he was doing what he was supposed to do rather than getting deeper into the boat mess.  I don't think she would have suspected in a million years that the very moment Randall is trying to talk to the seller of the boat that something bad was going to happen -  especially not a possible suicide. She didn't see what we saw.  She only knew that her husband had had a weak moment when he bought the boat.  And she was annoyed that he spoke to her that way when she tried to intervene to make sure the situation got corrected. 

23 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Also quite dangerous.  Gestational diabetes for Kate, a huge baby who comes with problems of its own - I really don't think they should go there at this point in the story.

You're right, it's risky.  Let's not do pregnancy. OK, show? Let's give Kate a different storyline, preferably one that allows her to grow and shine. 

 

On 12/29/2016 at 11:17 AM, topanga said:

Toby and Kate are both weird about boundaries. They seem to enjoy trampling on each other's. Remember when Kate stalked Toby's ex and got a job with her? Or as the other poster reminded me, when Kate called Toby after they'd broken up just because she needed someone to talk to. 

Oh yea, I almost forgot about that. The stalking was such a low moment for her I guess I tried to block it out. But I did remember when she called him to vent after the breakup. Maybe  if she hadn't done that he wouldn't have  had the guts to show up at Randall's. Or maybe he broke down and called her back off screen. It would be nice if they could have learned about boundaries from having given their own transgressed upon. But it seems they both just got worse with establishing and respecting boundaries. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, love2lovebadtv said:

Toby was coming from California, I thought. Six hours is an accurate flight time from California to NYC/NJ.

In-air time is more like 5 heading east and 6 heading west, I think, due to the jet stream.

Does the multi-quote button not work for you?  It's the one that look like +". 

[love2lovebadtv]

On 12/8/2016 at 11:26 PM, theatremouse said:

The big long continuous beeeeeeeeeeep is usually TV for "dead" so if they present anything otherwise, I'mabe pissed because that's cheap.

In my experience, pretty much every Jewish mom lives the stereotype. I'm hoping to buck the trend myself, but I realize there's a decent chance I'll fail.

Can someone with a better memory than mine (or who saved it on DVR and is rewatching) clarify for me if Sloane herself ever actually used the phrase "Hanukkah dinner" or is that just what people have been calling it here (perhaps for lack of better phrase)? I'm asking because partly, for me I agree with those who sort of already said "that isn't a thing". BUT "doing Hanukkah" is a thing. Especially if children are involved...and grandparents. And it may or may not involve proper "dinner" vs just...everyone shows up at grandma's house, do candles at sundown, eat latkes, dreidel up the joint...blah. Anyway, what I'm getting at is if she used the phrase "Hanukkah dinner" that does ring a little false to me. But if the deal was just that was the night her whole family had committed to going to grandma's and "doing Hanukkah" together, I can see bringing Kev per her previous mom-shutting-up lies. And then however that particular family does Hanukkah, how they did it was totally reasonable from my perspective. The actual event itself, sure whatever, I buy it. Different families do what they do. I can imagine the other nights they might not get together and just candles/fried food at their own homes for the rest.

Flashback nitpick: if they were in the hospital Christmas eve 1989, the wrong number of candles were lit on the hospital menorah. It looked like night three but should've been night 2.

I don't really see much difference between "doing Hanukkah" and "Hanukkah dinner" or even "Hanukkah celebration" or "Hanukkah party" as they all mean you're getting together for Hanukkah. I've been to several Hanukkah dinners and last year I actually received a cute "Hanukkah dinner party" invitation. It was a sit-down dinner but also had a fun, informal component. No Manny, though lol. 

[Sake614]

My family has always done Chanukah. We may not have a formal sit down dinner, but for as long as I can remember, we've celebrated. Presents wrapped and placed on the sofa were all brought by the Chanukah fairy.  I never attended a Chanukah party but that's mostly because the vast majority of my friends were Catholics. Now as an adult with six great nieces and nephews, we still get together every year, but it's more casual and the kids know who bought the gifts. I can't even imagine not celebrating, nor how people can consider it 'not a thing' because it isn't Christmas. But as always, YMMV.

[love2lovebadtv]

On 12/9/2016 at 6:40 AM, SlackerInc said:

Cosigned.  The show always has great music.

It's on probation for me, for sure.  I did not love this episode.  But that might be partly because I'm an atheist and they seemed to lay the religious stuff on thick.  We will see.

I didn't get that there was a lot of religious stuff. Rebecca mentioned going to church in response to Kevin's "Jesus stuff" but that didn't happen. The family celebrations seemed more secular than religious to me. But maybe I missed something. 

On 12/8/2016 at 11:15 PM, OtterMommy said:

Also, I've never flown into a major airport (I'm assuming that Toby flew into Newark, JFK, or LaGuardia?) without extra time circling before being able to land.  And, if he flew out of LAX, he probably spent a good 45-60 minutes waiting on the tarmac.

From LAX, his options are Newark or JFK, the latter being kinda far to travel once you're already on the ground. Either way, a 6-hour flight from California to New Jersey is normal, and especially so on Christmas Eve. 

On 12/8/2016 at 11:53 PM, breezy424 said:

On another note, my oldest did like to wander in the hospital.  Grandma had been there a number of times.  This was in the nineties.  He also knew that he could cruise the hall but no getting on elevators, no less going to the gift shop, and had to be back in about five minutes or a search party would be sent out.  This is what bothered me about the episode.  You keep track of your kids.  And if one of your kids is having surgery?  Yeah, you may stop by and say hello to your Ob/gyn  but, as a parent, you're totally focused on your child who is going under the knife.  Been there.  Done that.  And my kid was older than nine years old.

Yea, you might want to go see about your kid.

On another note, though: I was wondering if the kids (not Kate, the patient, of course) would have even been allowed in the patient areas. 

On 12/9/2016 at 2:06 AM, lucindabelle said:

Except there really aren't Hanukkah traditions to be well kept. Seriously it's a VERY minor holiday and the only reason it's become a big deal is it falls around Xmas time. Hanukkah presents are completely fornjewishbkids to not be left out; in ghettos it was just Hanukkah gelt. (Today represented by chocolate coins). Candles get lit, latkes and donuts get eaten, dreidels get spun. To me the whole Hanukkah dinner actually suggests a less observant family because if you're more observant there's so many damn holidays ttisbone is no big deal. For me I never minded Korn being home for Hanukkah but the few times in my life I couldn't make it home for Passover I cried my eyes out.

My coworker from Israel likened Hanukkah to Flag Day here in the US. Hanukkah isn't mentioned in the Torah and it wasn't originally a religious holiday, but for some people, especially since it falls around the time of the Christmas holiday season, it is a great time to honor one's heritage and get together with family. 

On 12/9/2016 at 2:18 AM, J-Man said:

I don't think anyone's mentioned this yet, but I'm fairly certain this was the first episode where Chris Sullivan (Toby) was credited as a REGULAR, instead of as a guest star. So either we're going to be seeing a lot more of him (either in real time or in flashbacks) or they did this as a last hurrah for the actor and/or to fake us out. But going from guest star to series regular is, I gather, quite a big deal with respect to compensation and other perks, so I'm pretty sure it is not a one-shot deal. I hadn't see that. I thought after the breakup we wouldn't see him any more. I'd rather see him alive and getting better than in flashbacks. We already have flashbacks to the Big 3's childhood; modern-day flashbacks would be too much for me. I've watched Scandal and How to Get Away with Murder...so confusing. 

That's hardly the only holiday story or tradition that's wholly or partially fictitious. Santa Claus? Virgin births? The Easter 

On 12/9/2016 at 5:47 AM, SlackerInc said:

Nagging Randall into giving up the boat is a perfect illustration of why I don't like Beth. The guy makes a shit-ton of dough--let him buy a damn boat if he wants to! Jesus.

But without consulting her? 

 

On 12/9/2016 at 7:46 AM, Big Mother said:

From an ultra-Orthodox Jew here: "Chanukah Dinner" is not a "Thing" like a Passover Seder, for instance. However, families *DO* get together for one night during Chanukah for some family time. It could be any night of chanukah; often it's on saturday night because it's easier when people are not working. However, telling over the Chanukah story is wholly unneccessary since the kids have learned about it all month in school. In a loosely-traditional family like Sloane's, maybe that became their own family's tradition

Yea, Sloane's family is definitely not ultra-Orthodox. And I thought maybe there are members of the family who aren't/weren't Jewish and/or haven't grown up hearing the story. 

On 12/10/2016 at 3:55 PM, mansonlamps said:

I really find it strange when people speak for any group of people like they are all the same, whether it's Jews, obese people, gays or whoever.  Everybody's life experience is completely different.

I am really enjoying the show and it's honestly the only network program I know of that has any buzz around it, it's really striking a chord with a lot of people.  

Yes, this show is great. I've been home sick with the flu and watching this show and reading all the buzz has been a great distraction. People are different even if they're part of the same religion, decade, family, race, geographical location, weight group, etc. 

On 12/10/2016 at 11:09 AM, Enigma X said:

Late last night I was able to view this episode. I still have not been able to get through all the comments. I really loved seeing Dennis O'Hare and think Jesse and William make a very handsome couple. Mandy Moore and Chrissy Metz were very believable as mother and daughter. I like Sloane a lot. Lastly, I am not a cold-hearted person but I am all for whatever it takes to get Toby off my screen.

I don't think you'll get your wish. Even if Toby dies, he will probably still be around. 

On 12/9/2016 at 1:19 PM, ClareWalks said:

Yeah, I agree. It's like saying "how could you be attracted to a black guy? You dated a white guy before."

Yes, I agree 100%. 

On 12/9/2016 at 1:24 PM, Dowel Jones said:

Technically, it didn't stop, as one of the doctors is heard to say "He's in v-fib", meaning the heart was beating very irregularly and inefficiently, but not quite completely stopped.  That's when shocking the heart is most effective, as it actually does stop the heart for a moment until the brain can get the electrical impulses going again, so there might indeed be a long beep, followed by the normal rhythm (next season).

Everything was happening so fast. How on earth did you catch that? 

On 12/9/2016 at 5:25 PM, theatremouse said:

OK yeah, then I revert firmly into camp not-a-thing.

People have dinners or get-togethers for anything they want to celebrate. If Sloan's family is doing it, then to them it's a thing. I've been to Hanukkah dinners before so her family is not the only one who has decided to make it a thing. 

On 12/7/2016 at 2:57 PM, Laurie4H said:

I don't care if William or anyone is gay but I feel like they do this for political reasons.  I'm sure there will be a transgender plot also.

I was indifferent on Toby but I hope he lives.  I still find it hard to believe he would be so into someone that drastically overweight considering he had a "hot" wife.  I think if Kate struggled with 50 or so lbs it would be more realistic....but then they probably couldn't use the gastro bypass story line then.

I don't understand any of this. How is William being gay political? I also don't under stand your prediction of a potential transgender plot.

We have no idea if Toby has a type. We only know that he likes Kate. Kate wants to lose weight for health reasons and because it's generally something she wants to do, but Toby is interested in her just as he is.  Although Kate felt threatened by Toby's ex-wife, he didn't seem to be pining for her.  If Kate is who Toby likes, I don't think it's unrealistic at all. 

 

On 12/12/2016 at 10:42 PM, JasminePhyllisia said:

I'm leaning with those who think there was no suicide and Randall is mentally unstable.  The timeline simply doesn't work--they still had time to go home and celebrate Christmas Eve with family just showing up and the kids still up.  If it had really happened they would have been stuck there for hours while Randall was interviewed by police.  And his wife would have been at least slightly upset once they got home.

 

On 12/13/2016 at 0:35 AM, candall said:

 

On 12/13/2016 at 6:39 AM, candall said:

And the original papal decision that the big splashy celebration to mark the birth of Christ would be in December was because there was already a major pagan festival in place around that general date.

Looks like those pagans had the last laugh after all. 

Santa Claus, reindeer, Easter bunny, eggs. Yea, I'd say they've had some influence. 

On 12/13/2016 at 11:02 AM, mojito said:

A little tough to do if you aren't retired or more idle than busy. I tend to DVR this show, and mostly don't watch it for several days after its airing. By then, the posts are over 8 pages. It would take an inordinate amount of time to read all the posts (longer than watching the show), so I usually read only a couple pages ahead before posting. Perhaps this is why the rule is informal. It's unreasonable for a show that stimulates so much conversation.

I'm home getting over the flu so I've been more active on this forum than ever before! Plus there are sooo many pages to read :)

On 12/13/2016 at 11:54 PM, WicketyWack said:

There was a bit of foreshadowing about Toby's collapse. When he came in initially, he was pretty sweaty and gasping for breath. When he came down the stairs with Kate, he was definitely gasping and wheezing, though that was to be expected given the timing I guess. Then in the ending montage you see him lifting the littler girl up and it looks like he's struggling. I wasn't surprised at all when he finally dropped the plates and hit the floor.

Yeah I'll say it: when it comes to Toby, I'm firmly on the "bye Felicia" train. I will feel bad for Kate in the show but good Lord get off my screen and get her a better storyline.

And, who grows up celebrating Christmas but doesn't know the name of Santa's reindeer? WTF Rebecca and Randall.

I bet lots of people grew up celebrating Christmas but can't remember the names of all the reindeer, myself included lol.  Out of all the Christmas songs, I can only think of one where they're named. Plus, I'm a lot more well versed in the actual Christmas story than the Santa stuff. 

[Tiger]

15 hours ago, love2lovebadtv said:

No interest in seeing his family but I'm wondering if he'll ever go and be with them sometimes. I feel like there's a story here but it hasn't been told yet so for now he's just taking up space with his bad makeup. 

I dont know why the show would cast Wynn Everett and then not give her anything to do.

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, Sake614 said:

I can't even imagine not celebrating, nor how people can consider it 'not a thing' because it isn't Christmas.

Nobody is saying it's not a thing because it's not Christmas. Some of us aren't considering it a thing because it's not a major Jewish holiday. In terms of importance, Chanukah is on par with Purim, Sukkot, Tu Bishvat, and many other minor holidays which most Jews don't celebrate. It's only been elevated to a thing in Western society because it's in December and it involves gifts.

[Sake614]

I guess importance is relative. I've never known anyone who didn't celebrate Chanukah. 

[SlackerInc]

I'm not Jewish (nor Christian, or anything else), but I've had a number of Jewish friends over the years.  I've noticed a variety of attitudes toward Hanukkah.  Some are glad to have a solid competitor to Christmas as a December festival involving gifts.  Others (which is the camp it sounds like @chocolatine is in) are annoyed that a minor holiday has been elevated out of a perceived need (which they reject) to "fit in" with the holiday spirit of the majority culture.

But hey: Christmas was also basically sort of shoehorned into December, and Christmas trees (something Jesus and his disciples would not have recognized) glommed onto it, to fit with the traditional majority culture of pagan religion.  <shrug>