S01.E05: The Game Plan

[chocolatine]

Just to give my two cents on the dos and don'ts of pausing live television: I live in Seattle, in a densely populated neighborhood, and when the Seahawks are playing and scoring touchdowns, I can hear most of my neighbors cheer. So if I were invested in football, I would absolutely not tolerate any pausing, because the neighbors' cheering would "spoil" the game for me. So I'm firmly on the "don't" team.

[breezy424]

So...I know most posters here seem to like Mandy Moore as Rebecca but for me, the casting just doesn't feel right.  I do find Rebecca an interesting character (even though I don't always agree with her) but Mandy's portrayal of her just doesn't work for me.  I just don't think she's that great an actor.  I also don't feel any chemistry between her and Milo (who BTW is fantastic).  I just wonder if anyone else feels that way.

On another note, I can't stand Toby.  He's way too pushy and I have to wonder if that was a part of why his marriage fell apart.  When you push someone who obviously wants to watch a show, whether it's a sports show or whatever, you don't interrupt.  He should have respected Kate's 'no'.  She said 'yes' basically to shut him up.  I can't stand people like that and obviously Kate is insecure and he played on that insecurity.

And geez, when did the eighties become the fifties?  Just from reading posts and things showed on the series: 

No, segregation did not exist in the eighties - people tend to gravitate toward people who they have things in common with:  At the community pool - older people gravitate to other older people, people with kids gravitate to other people who have young kids, people gravitate to their own race, or the same religion.  Not much different,  if at all, from today.

And yeah, people had children of different races in the eighties.  Sorry, it wasn't the 'shock' that some may think.  One of my closest friends did.

The biological clock for having kids back then was a little different back then but thirty?  Not so much.

Kevin asking William if he knew how to read was ridiculous.  He's been in LA for how many years?  Again, a fifties question.  If he was true to today, and for some really ignorant reason, he would have asked William if he 'wanted' to read the part.  Kevin may be a bit ignorant but I'm not buying 'that ignorant'.

Oh, let me add, the night of the Snow White play.  Sure, a few people would chuckle about the irony of the words in the play regarding Snow White.  But that's all it would have been.  I'm from the NY metropolitan area.  What was being 'portrayed' has not been my experience in an upper class community.  And, if someone was walking around my neighborhood, whether black or white or whatever, if they're dressed like a homeless person, it would be no surprise that someone called the police.  BTW, NJ is all township police, not county.  NJ is very small town when it comes to police. 

On a positive note, I love Jack (but I have a feeling Jack is going to go dark) and I love his and Kate's relationship.  I think we're going to see another side of Randall as well.  Kevin is definitely the lost child in this.  I don't like the Rebecca/Miquel relationship.  I can't explain it except to say maybe it's because I love Jack.  I also hope Kate dumps Toby and moves east. 

I'll go back to the corner......

Edited October 27, 2016 by breezy424

[Bama]

I took the "Can you read, William?" as another one of Kevin's totally inappropriate jokes, like the ones about what kind of wine the girls like.

Kevin had just given copies of the script to two little girls and then he turns to a grown man and says "I need to ask you a serious question, William.  Can you read?" - making it funny for the girls that he assumes they know how to read but he better check to make sure the grown-up can read, too.

This show hasn't shown Kevin to be a mean, ignorant asshole - just self-obsessed (which we are now seeing is actually self-consciousness), a little shallow, awkward, and goofy.  I just don't see that "Can you read, William?" question being put in the show with the intention of Kevin actually meaning it.  It doesn't match with what we have seen Kevin to be.

It being a dumb joke that fell flat and made things awkward does fit with the Kevin the show is showing us.

[queenanne]

^^ Agreed wholeheartedly.  I think it was intended to disarm William and put him at ease, as during the pregnant pause, William mentally ran through all the dreadful options Kevin could have intended by it - including, to ask him the truth about his background.  (Granted, we know Kevin's smart enough not to ask something like that - mostly - but it's borderline, really, considering him stumbling through the death conversation later.)

[chocolatine]

52 minutes ago, Bama said:

It being a dumb joke that fell flat and made things awkward does fit with the Kevin the show is showing us.

I think Kevin's inability to tell a good joke ties back nicely to what his manager said about him - that he was the unfunniest person she's ever met. 

[ShadowFacts]

8 hours ago, breezy424 said:

So...I know most posters here seem to like Mandy Moore as Rebecca but for me, the casting just doesn't feel right.  I do find Rebecca an interesting character (even though I don't always agree with her) but Mandy's portrayal of her just doesn't work for me.  I just don't think she's that great an actor.  I also don't feel any chemistry between her and Milo (who BTW is fantastic).  I just wonder if anyone else feels that way.

I said much the same in the unpopular opinions thread.  Her acting isn't bad, but she is bland and I wish they had cast someone else, an unknown would have been fine if they had more, I don't know, spark or something. 

[hippielamb]

I had to laugh at Beth and Randall having his relatives show up announced. They are my favourite relationship on this show. I really love Beth and her honesty. And Randall's excitement over shower sex and room service. With no kids! Lol

I can so relate to Beth in this episode. My second kid was born when the first one was starting middle school. It's a definite adjustment.

It's weird that football is such a big deal to their family, yet both sons weren't watching it, only Kate. I felt bad for her at the super bowl party, Toby needs to get a clue. 

18 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

This is a revelation to me that people don't pause some TV.  I never, ever watch anything live.  I don't understand what difference it makes if I'm cheering for the TD 12 minutes after the stadium cheered?  Or 2 days, if I avoid spoilers?  

Lol same here! I like zooming past the commercials. Reading this thread has shown me that there are a lot of football fans, and pausing tv is apparently frowned upon. I did think Toby was rude in that scene though. 

12 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

Mostly because Toby is so self-obsessed that he couldn't tell by Kate's obvious body language and pleas for him to stop blocking the TV that she was interested in watching the game. Others here have really nailed it, that guy just desperately needs attention all the time and cannot deal with not being the center of everything.

I think it was just that Toby and his friend were casual football watchers, while for Kate it is a very big deal. 

[ChromaKelly]

18 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

The house has to have spare bedrooms, though I did have a large, 3-bedroom house once.  The writers just put William in the cutesy girl's room to make it more heart wrenching.  

So you guys who do not pause live tv... you watch the commercials?  Ick.  Do you also have sex in public bathrooms?  ; )

I usually record sports/other live events and then start watching about 15-20 minutes after they start to give me some buffer time to FF commercials. I will pause if I have to go to the bathroom, get a snack, etc. But, I would be very annoyed if someone paused right when an exciting play was going on.

ETA - And no, never had sex in a public bathroom. Even when I was younger and didn't have a bad knee.

Edited October 27, 2016 by ChromaKelly

[Biggie B]

I think that no matter what your viewing habits are, or what sort of program you're watching it's really rude for someone else to pause your show without asking or giving you a heads up. Toby could've said to Kate, "Hey, can I pause this a sec?" and she would've had the chance to say, "Not right now, just let me see this play," or something to that effect. I hate Toby, so I'm going to find fault with his mere existence, but still - it was super obvious that Kate honestly was trying to watch the game as it was happening. It wasn't just background noise or something she was casually glancing at while talking to the other guy, Shooter. But again, I detest Toby, so I can't impartially assess anything he says or does! I am evil!! 

I'm glad we got a tiny glimpse into Beth beyond just being the perfect mom and wife. She's poised to reenter the work force. I wonder what she did before having kids. I'm very glad she's not pregnant and was also glad that Randall was equally relieved. They are a true team. Even though Randall has this plan to retire in whatever city it was he mentioned, and this was news to Beth, they are still on the same wavelength so much of the time and are so tuned in to each other, it's a joy to watch. For me, they're the best part of the show. I like Kate a lot, flaws and all; Kevin, eh, he's ok but I'm not terribly invested in him; but Beth and Randall - they are wonderful. Those two actors are the shining stars of this series so far.

Picking a noisy bar in the middle of the Super Bowl with your best friends sitting right there was NOT the time or place to discuss having or not having children. That was beyond stupid. My eyes rolled pretty hard at that point.

As with many others, I am quite ready to know how and why Rebecca and Miguel ended up together, what happened to Miguel's wife, and how Jack died. I'm assuming none of these questions will be answered quickly, but hopefully, we'll see some good, meaty stuff along the way as they build up to the resolution of each.

Still haven't shed a single tear, but that's just me - I can appreciate the emotions put forth by the characters (Randall crying as he packed up William's stuff was excellent), I just don't cry at stuff like that.

[LydiaMoon1]

13 hours ago, 3girlsforus said:

I completely agree with those who would be bugged by pausing live TV. I would never do that during a football game. BUT.... this was Toby's house. He gets to do whatever he wants with the remote. It was super annoying of him to push Kate into watching the game at his house but she's a grown up and could have just said no.

THIS.  Thank you!

While I agree that Toby was truly annoying this week, I don’t blame him for the football game debacle.  When he invited Kate over to his place to watch football, all she had to do was tell him no and not go.  N-O.  That’s all.  Her relationship with Toby is new and now is the time to establish boundaries.  She better grow a backbone and stand up for herself.

Kevin’s talk with the girls was hysterical.  Didn’t take him long to find out that serious conversations with children can quickly turn into a minefield.

Randall and Beth continue to be my favorite.

[Lady Calypso]

14 minutes ago, LydiaMoon1 said:

While I agree that Toby was truly annoying this week, I don’t blame him for the football game debacle.  When he invited Kate over to his place to watch football, all she had to do was tell him no and not go.  N-O.  That’s all.  Her relationship with Toby is new and now is the time to establish boundaries.  She better grow a backbone and stand up for herself.

 

I agree that she should have stuck to her guns, but Kate DID say no. More than once, actually. She told him during breakfast that she wanted to watch alone. When he pestered her about it further, she said that she didn't want to yet again. Then, when he finally "gave in", she thanked him for respecting her decision. And then he didn't, because he thought passing a note to her in the middle of a meeting to invite her to a football party was a smart idea. EVEN THOUGH SHE SAID NO. Sure, it's on Kate in that moment for saying yes, but it's not like he had no idea what her feelings were about it. Like she told Toby, she wasn't quite sure why she said yes that third/fourth time, but she thought that maybe he'd think she was weird. That could be her own insecurities and maybe the fear of them breaking up because of it that got her to say yes. 

His fourth mistake was not telling her that he invited over a friend. He deliberately didn't mention that it wouldn't be just the two of them, despite the fact that he knew that she already wanted to watch the game alone. Now, what happened at his house wasn't neccessarily his fault in the traditional sense. He paused the game without realizing that Kate really wanted to watch and was a huge fan. But he did make one final mistake, and that was following her home, and then not only NOT apologizing like he should have, but cornering her into feeling guilty (in my opinion). His bitchy remark about how he'd have to avoid her every Sunday during football season was unwarranted. Ok, so you have to go ONE night without seeing your girlfriend. His inability to understand why she would be upset and leave is ridiculous. She was even very polite about it to him. She excused herself, lied so that his friend wouldn't feel uncomfortable, and she finally left so she could do what she wanted to do. 

So, even though her going over to his house is not technically his fault because he didn't force her to go, he still was a big asshole for not listening to her, as well as withholding the part about him inviting over a friend as well as making her feel guilty for not just falling over and accepting the awkward trio party. Plus, getting upset at HER when she didn't do anything wrong. He was disrespectful to her and her decision. If someone says no, it means NO. It doesn't mean "oh, but she/he probably doesn't mean that; they're just insecure. They will love it once they say yes". Even if Toby thought that this was another self esteem issue, he shouldn't have pressed the subject. 

Edited October 27, 2016 by Lady Calypso

[ChromaKelly]

I'm wondering if the show has writers for different characters. The writing for Randall and Beth is so much better than the other characters. They feel more real. I find their conversations much more realistic and not so speechy/self-aware. Randall's dreams of hotel sex and room service burgers, the "I look up things on Zillow at work", Beth messing up the "who has two thumbs" thing, and the way she told him about being late right when they got there instead of spending the whole episode with her acting weird and Randall wondering what was up, which would have been typical TV.
Kevin is growing on me. I like his awkwardness and self-doubt.
I agree with all the Toby hate. Can't stand him! He is way too pushy and him passing the note during the group was just so freaking rude! Kate should have told him to FOAD.
I'm just not feeling Jack and Rebecca, and I'm not getting what's so great about Jack. I would have been that bar patron telling the to STFU. OK, I wouldn't have said it but I'd be thinking it.

Oh and I'm kind of annoyed that this show is doing the losing weight = eating yucky foods. And I'm sick of Toby's eye-rolling and remarks about what Kate makes for him. If you don't like it, make your own damn food.

[photo fox]

2 minutes ago, LydiaMoon1 said:

When he invited Kate over to his place to watch football, all she had to do was tell him no and not go.  N-O.  That’s all.  Her relationship with Toby is new and now is the time to establish boundaries.  She better grow a backbone and stand up for herself.

 

Total agreement.  While I really can't stand Toby for many reasons, she needs to take ownership of her own actions.  Yes, he probably would have kept pushing.  Yes, he might have just shown up at her house.  But he didn't have to, because she caved.

I don't think Toby is trying to be malicious or controlling, but I do think he has a strong personality and doesn't realize how overpowering he can be to someone who has a weaker will, like Kate*.  He definitely needs to understand that and learn to back off.  But at the same time, Kate needs to learn to stick to her guns.

I feel like she's just traded letting Kevin dominate her life for letting Toby do so.  I feel like the show wants me to see him as this great guy who's being so wonderful and she's so lucky to have him, because she's fat.  And that's just so icky to me.  She needs to slow this down and discover who she is as an individual.  I think they met two weeks ago?  No more than a month.  And her life completely revolves around him.  That is just so unhealthy, no matter if Toby is a unicorn crapping rainbows.

*I sympathize because I can be the same way.  I can overpower other people's opinions without even noticing.  I try to realize this and act accordingly, but when you're outspoken and not afraid to give your opinion, you assume others are the same.  If Toby didn't want to do something, he would probably just say, "no, I don't want to," and go on.  It may not occur to him that it's even possible for him to make Kate do something she doesn't want.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ChromaKelly said:

I'm wondering if the show has writers for different characters. The writing for Randall and Beth is so much better than the other characters. They feel more real. I find their conversations much more realistic and not so speechy/self-aware. Randall's dreams of hotel sex and room service burgers,

I like their scenes better, too, but I think Randall gets an awful lot of monologs, and that spiel in the hotel room was starting to annoy me.  He sells them well, but c'mon, he was like a 10 year old.  "Room service!  Pay per view!  Shower sex!  No sleep!"  And most working parents I know would not be signing up for a sleepless night as their dream date.  And what is Randall's job?  Lawyer?  I would think he's done business travel before and a fancy hotel room on an expense account isn't exactly Disneyland.  

1 hour ago, Biggie B said:

I think that no matter what your viewing habits are, or what sort of program you're watching it's really rude for someone else to pause your show without asking or giving you a heads up. Toby could've said to Kate, "Hey, can I pause this a sec?" and she would've had the chance to say, "Not right now, just let me see this play," or something to that effect. I hate Toby, so I'm going to find fault with his mere existence, but still - it was super obvious that Kate honestly was trying to watch the game as it was happening.

I think we're supposed to hate Toby but I put part of the blame on Kate for that scene.  Instead of sitting there like a little hurt mouse and nicely asking them to unpause she could've matched his boisterousness and grabbed the remote and humorously let him know she's serious about the game and STFU.  Claiming you're sick is a copout.  

And her dad died over 10 years ago?  In TV land, no one ever gets over a death in the family.  

Edited October 27, 2016 by Guest

[LydiaMoon1]

Quote

So, even though her going over to his house is not technically his fault because he didn't force her to go, he still was a big asshole for not listening to her, as well as withholding the part about him inviting over a friend as well as making her feel guilty for not just falling over and accepting the awkward trio party.

Rather that quote your whole argument, I'll just use this portion.  Bottom line is that you're just making excuses for Kate.  Yes, Toby should have listened to her the first time, but he didn't.  Yes, she told him again and he still didn't listen.  That’s when she should have said it in a way that left no room for argument and refused to go to his place.  That’s hard for a lot a women to do because we’re raised to please other people.  I know.  I understand Kate. Heck, I’ve been Kate. That's how I know that NO is a woman's best friend.  Learn it and use it.  You can’t change the other person, but you can change the way you respond.

Edited October 27, 2016 by LydiaMoon1

[ShadowFacts]

16 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

And her dad died over 10 years ago?  In TV land, no one ever gets over a death in the family.  

In my own experience, the loss of a dear parent is never gotten over.  I'm coming up on 8 years since my mother's death, and nope, not over it.  Functioning, happy for the most part, but the hole is still there and will always be.  Tying it in to Kate, her missing the presence of her father in her life may be part of why she is attracted to Toby, I think it has been posted in one of the threads that Toby and Jack have similarities and I see that, too.  Both have quirky humor, and are nurturing (Toby in his own pushy way), and that makes Kate feel accepted and cared for.  Toby is still wrong for her now, he is too domineering and she's not a kid anymore.

[izabella]

1 hour ago, photo fox said:

I think [Kate and Toby] met two weeks ago?  No more than a month.

Time on this show is very confusing.  It's football season in Kate's world,, so it should be autumn in the Northeast where Kevin and Randall and family are...but we saw William going for his walk without a coat and with leafy, green trees outside and green, green grass (when he was stopped by security).  Yes, it might be unseasonably warm (?), but the leaves would be falling in Philly (are they in Philly?).

[OtterMommy]

2 minutes ago, izabella said:

Time on this show is very confusing.  It's football season in Kate's world,, so it should be autumn in the Northeast where Kevin and Randall and family are...but we saw William going for his walk without a coat and with leafy, green trees outside and green, green grass (when he was stopped by security).  Yes, it might be unseasonably warm (?), but the leaves would be falling in Philly (are they in Philly?).

A common problem in many TV shows not set in California--but just because it is common, doesn't mean it can't (or shouldn't be) remedied.  I remember watching a Christmas episode of another show where, in the exterior scenes, it was obviously summer (and the show is set--and filmed--in a part of the country with distinct seasons).  In these cases, the show/director could choose to shoot only interior scenes, or only have exterior scenes shot at night, or use "smaller" exterior shots where the background isn't as obvious or, even, (gasp) use a green screen.

[HeySandyStrange]

To echo most everyone else, I'm really liking the direction they are going in with Kevin. I had a hunch there was more to him then met the eye, and I'm not disappointed. As a former Jane the Virgin watcher, he reminds me a little of Rogelio, in the sense that he can be self-absorbed and shallow, but he also has a good heart and really cares about his family. I like that he is awkward and self-doubting, despite his success in life, and that he actually wants something more for himself.

I like Beth and Randall, but I feel that their story is a little thin right now. I can be patient, they dove pretty deep with Kevin this week and I expect for them to dive deep into Randall and his issues. He is too intense not to have something he is keeping a lid on. I'm really thinking there is something to his intensity and manic episodes. I hope Beth will be okay, I'm a little worried about her symptoms, since she isn't pregnant.

I'm confused Toby and Kate. Are we supposed to be rooting for them? Are they endgame? I just don't get the sense they are, there seems to be way to much strife so early in their relationship for them to build a solid foundation.

[ChromaKelly]

22 minutes ago, LydiaMoon1 said:

Rather that quote your whole argument, I'll just use this portion.  Bottom line is that you're just making excuses for Kate.  Yes, Toby should have listened to her the first time, but he didn't.  Yes, she told him again and he still didn't listen.  That’s when she should have said it in a way that left no room for argument and refused to go to his place.  That’s hard for a lot a women to do because we’re raised to please other people.  I know.  I understand Kate. Heck, I’ve been Kate. That's how I know that NO is a woman's best friend.  Learn it and use it.  You can’t change the other person, but you can change the way you respond.

I've been a Kate too, and still am in many ways. I have a hard time saying no and probably would have agreed to go over as well. I'm going to delve deeper into this pushover woman/pushy man thing in the Social Issues thread.

[Packerbrewerbadger]

Totally get the watching alone bit, even without the deceased dad aspect. I watch my sports with my husband, period.  And tho I watch everything else  on DVR , my sports must be live!  My daughter has stopped asking us to come over to watch the game..... ( they watch delayed and too many people.......)

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, LydiaMoon1 said:

Rather that quote your whole argument, I'll just use this portion.  Bottom line is that you're just making excuses for Kate.  Yes, Toby should have listened to her the first time, but he didn't.  Yes, she told him again and he still didn't listen.  That’s when she should have said it in a way that left no room for argument and refused to go to his place.  That’s hard for a lot a women to do because we’re raised to please other people.  I know.  I understand Kate. Heck, I’ve been Kate. That's how I know that NO is a woman's best friend.  Learn it and use it.  You can’t change the other person, but you can change the way you respond.

Kate absolutely should have stuck to her guns and, as someone else said, it seems that Kate has a tendency to let people direct her rather than taking ownership of her life.  That said, I feel this is a bit harsh on Kate.  I am a firm believer in No without qualifiers in general as I feel any explanation that is not required merely gives the other person a place to start arguing.  For instance, when a guy hits on me and I'm not interested I never say "I have a boyfriend" or "I'm here with my friends" as a reason, even if those things are true.  I simply say "No, thank you" or "Thank you, but no."  I don't owe him a reason for my decision to decline.    However, Kate and Toby are dating and a flat no would have just seemed rude or even hurtful.  So I feel her "This is a thing I do alone" was about a firm as the situation called for.

I sort of hate that Toby immediately began making fun of how weird it was that she watched sports alone (I frequently do myself, though I'm not fixed about it; it's just a thing I do.  I also text my dad during Giants games no matter who I'm with - another reason I have to watch live or may dad's text my spoil something).  But apart from that, Kate said no repeatedly and Toby kept asking and made it a thing to the point of a craft card.  I get why she relented.  And with all of that, I don't recall that Kate didn't own that she made the choice or got angry with Toby.  She just excused herself when she decided it wasn't going to work for her.  Toby is the one who confronted her.  

Also, I understand the position that pausing or not was Toby's prerogative as it was his home.  But he invited an avid fan to his home to watch something she felt strongly about, which she made clear.  Even if he doesn't take football seriously, he knew his GUEST did.  As a host, I would never invite someone over expressly to watch something they obviously felt strongly about and then disregard his or her investment by randomly pausing to have a side conversation unrelated to the event, that it was the start of a 3rd down play was just further insult.  

ETA:  I forgot to mention, that in addition to the above, the thing Kate relented and agree to, as far as she knew, was not what Toby actually did.  She agreed to come over to his house to watch with HIM.  He did not bother to inform her that there would be another person there, one she did not know.  This would have been a touch rude (but not out of bounds) for a regular hangout, but considering she was already going out of her comfort zone to include him and watch at his house, Toby inviting another person was significant. 

Edited October 27, 2016 by RachelKM

[LydiaMoon1]

2 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

However, Kate and Toby are dating and a flat no would have just seemed rude or even hurtful.  So I feel her "This is a thing I do alone" was about a firm as the situation called for.

Apparently, it wasn't seeing as it didn't get Toby to stop bugging her.  By the 3rd or 4th time she had to tell him no, it was time to get ugly.  I understand that they're dating, but if he can't accept being told no,  she should reevaluate whether he's the type of person she should be dating.

[RachelKM]

57 minutes ago, LydiaMoon1 said:

Apparently, it wasn't seeing as it didn't get Toby to stop bugging her.  By the 3rd or 4th time she had to tell him no, it was time to get ugly.  I understand that they're dating, but if he can't accept being told no,  she should reevaluate whether he's the type of person she should be dating.

Well, as I said, she should have stuck to her guns.  But it made sense to give a reason in the first place, in my opinion, and it does not a seem that Toby was inclined to hear No as a final answer.  As the the second sentence, I totally agree.  The fact that Toby seems not to be able or willing (not sure which) to take no for an answer and his tendency to assume that his ideas for her are better than her own should totally give her pause. 

Edited October 27, 2016 by RachelKM

[chocolatine]

The worst thing about Toby's approach for me was that after Kate very decisively and repeatedly told him no during breakfast, Toby proceeded to craft an invitation and pass it out in the weight loss meeting, making sure to sit on the opposite side of the room so that absolutely everyone in the meeting noticed that Toby was making a Big Romantic Gesture. He knew it would put her in an awkward position and make saying no that much harder, so that was straight up manipulation. That goes far beyond having different "styles"; it shows that to Toby, the relationship is all about him and his needs.

[Lady Calypso]

Kate obviously could have handled the situation differently. At thirty six years old, she should have been mature enough to tell Toby that no means no and she wouldn't be coming over for a football party. Now, I get the feeling like Toby would have shown up anyway, although that scenario never comes up so we won't ever know. I have to remember that I may have handled the situation like Kate, as I hate confrontation and I would have feel incredibly uncomfortable with the relentless pestering to watch football. However, unlike Kate, I'm in my early twenties and have barely entered the adult world. I'm still learning at my younger age.

But we also know that Kate is dependent on people. She depended on Kevin, and even centered her whole life around him. Without Kevin, she's without a job and she probably would have moved with Kevin if it wasn't for Toby. She seems to have insecurities about standing up for herself, especially in a new relationship that has already had some ups and downs. Not everyone is capable of being firm and being confident in saying no. It's a flaw, of course, but it's not something that is always ingrained in every single person. A lot of it is learned, and a lot of it can be hard. I know I'd react in the same way as Kate because dealing with uncomfortable situations like that is something I'm unable to deal with personally. 

So yeah, I think it's realistic for Kate to respond in the way that she did. However, Toby did not deal with the situation right. I can't give him a pass on it because it's not as if Kate never said no. The fact that he made a (IMO passive-aggressive) card just goes to show that he has his own deep issues. That card was sheer manipulation. Passing her that card in public (luckily he didn't ask her in FRONT of everyone) is manipulation in my eyes. That's not cool. As much as many people are able to firmly say no and to get nasty, there are just as many that aren't able to. Trust me; I wish I could be more firm and more confident when I say no, but I get roped into situations too easily, even when I don't want to. It's really hard sometimes. 

It would be nice if Toby wasn't the guy that Kate was probably going to end up with for the rest of the series. I mean, I guess there's still a chance but there's also that chance that we're supposed to see him as romantic and great and a perfect person for Kate. I don't; it would be nice for her to find a different guy next season, it really would. I just don't see Kate/Toby as some grand couple that we're supposed to root for. And it's both of them that are the problem. 

[QueBueno]

13 hours ago, breezy424 said:

The biological clock for having kids back then was a little different back then but thirty?  Not so much.

As I recall, the bio clock in the eighties was around 35.  I worked for a BCBS from 1984-1988, and I remember we were taught that after 35 it was considered advanced maternal age.

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, izabella said:

Time on this show is very confusing.  It's football season in Kate's world,, so it should be autumn in the Northeast where Kevin and Randall and family are...but we saw William going for his walk without a coat and with leafy, green trees outside and green, green grass (when he was stopped by security).  Yes, it might be unseasonably warm (?), but the leaves would be falling in Philly (are they in Philly?).

It is. I looked up when the Steelers won and we do know that Kevin and Kate were conceived during the superbowl, so it was January 1979. That means their birthdays must fall between September and October. I think in the pilot, Rebecca mentioned being six weeks early? Or three weeks? Either way, their birthdays are supposedly in September sometime, and I think three weeks/at least a month has passed. So it should be October (most likely around the same time as it is for us) and yeah, I find it somewhat odd, but not totally. Now, if we don't start seeing snow by the midseason, then I'd be questioning their choices. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, QueBueno said:

As I recall, the bio clock in the eighties was around 35.  I worked for a BCBS from 1984-1988, and I remember we were taught that after 35 it was considered advanced maternal age.

It was 35 in 2000 when I had my child, too.  I was 34 and it was NBD but if I'd been 35 they said they would start doing things like suggesting amniocentesis and things like that, to prepare for abnormalities.  

[cardigirl]

Okay, I must be watching a different show, because so far, I enjoy all the characters.  Yes, even, and maybe especially, Toby, cause people aren't perfect and often make mistakes in finding their way through to love. 

As for pausing a live tv show?  Do. It. All. The. Time. But that is why I watch alone.  Because I like having the control.  Even if I'm DVRing a show, I'll pause it for 5 - 10 minutes so it's ahead of me and I can fast forward through commercials.  It's not for everyone, but lots of people do it, so it really isn't the crime of the century. 

[Biggie B]

Quote

As for pausing a live tv show?  Do. It. All. The. Time. But that is why I watch alone.  Because I like having the control.  Even if I'm DVRing a show, I'll pause it for 5 - 10 minutes so it's ahead of me and I can fast forward through commercials.  It's not for everyone, but lots of people do it, so it really isn't the crime of the century. 

I think we all use the pause function - but the key is just what you said: "But that is why I watch alone. Because I like having control." Kate was not the one who paused the football game, Toby did it. I don't care that it's his home and his remote - he invited Kate as his guest to supposedly watch the game (which he wasn't even doing), and a good host should make his guest feel comfortable. Stopping the game at a critical moment was rude and was done solely so Toby could try to tell an anecdote that had nothing to do with anything but his and Shooter's own amusement. So yes, the pause function of the DVR is a life saver at times, absolutely - but when someone takes the remote and stops a show you're watching, that's a wee bit rude. It was almost as if Kate wasn't even there. I don't see any of Toby's behavior as  mistakes or one-offs - it's intrinsically who he is, all the time. He's absolutely a polarizing character and unfortunately for me, I have yet to find any redeeming qualities in him and with each episode, have no desire to even try.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Biggie B
clarity

[cardigirl]

15 minutes ago, Biggie B said:

I think we all use the pause function - but the key is just what you said: "But that is why I watch alone. Because I like having control." Kate was not the one who paused the football game, Toby did it. I don't care that it's his home and his remote - he invited Kate as his guest to supposedly watch the game (which he wasn't even doing), and a good host should make his guest feel comfortable. Stopping the game at a critical moment was rude and was done solely so Toby could try to tell an anecdote that had nothing to do with anything but his and Shooter's own amusement. So yes, the pause function of the DVR is a life saver at times, absolutely - but when someone takes the remote and stops a show you're watching, that's a wee bit rude. It was almost as if Kate wasn't even there. I don't see any of Toby's behavior as a mistake or one-offs - it's intrinsically who he is, all the time. He's absolutely a polarizing character and unfortunately for me, I have yet to find any redeeming qualities in him and with each episode, have no desire to even try.

Well, I'm not inclined to have the guy killed off because of this incident.  I don't get that he's not got any redeeming qualities  because he was clueless enough to have paused the game, (and of course it was when they scored a touchdown), or because he's being emphatic in his pursuit of Kate.  He made a mistake.  He'll probably make more. Kate's made some too.  I think the show is doing a great job in revealing real characters, although it seems that Beth and Randall are perfect (so far).   

 

Agree to disagree.   

Edited October 27, 2016 by cardigirl

[Guest]

The stupider thing was fast-forwarding over the play, which was Kate's doing.  If you don't want to miss anything AND don't want to lag 'live', at least wait for a commercial to fast-forward. 

[meep.meep]

2 hours ago, QueBueno said:

As I recall, the bio clock in the eighties was around 35.  I worked for a BCBS from 1984-1988, and I remember we were taught that after 35 it was considered advanced maternal age.

I had my first child in 1986 when I was 30.  At 32, I would have been considered an "elderly primagravida."

I also liked Kevin and William's wise old owl and dopey Labrador conversation.

[PRgal]

34 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

I had my first child in 1986 when I was 30.  At 32, I would have been considered an "elderly primagravida."

I also liked Kevin and William's wise old owl and dopey Labrador conversation.

Heh!  My mom was 30 when she had me in '79.  She says she was "old-ish," but not an "older mom."  Most of her peers' kids are in their mid-late 30s, with few in their 40s.  I'd say that her peers' oldest kids were born between 75-81 or so.  Fast forward one generation, and we're all having kids in our early to mid-30s!  Some even late 30s!

[SueB]

I wonder if one of the points of the story is that as Kate 'finds herself', she's making some mis-steps. In this case listening to strong-willed Toby.  Dad was the voice, then Kevin, now Toby. 

[FilmTVGeek80]

Stopping the game at a critical moment was rude and was done solely so Toby could try to tell an anecdote that had nothing to do with anything but his and Shooter's own amusement. So yes, the pause function of the DVR is a life saver at times, absolutely - but when someone takes the remote and stops a show you're watching, that's a wee bit rude. It was almost as if Kate wasn't even there.

1

I don't think he was telling it just for his amusement. I think he thought Kate might find it funny as well. Plus, he's clearly not an avid fan of football, so I don't think he realized it was a crucial moment. If he had paused it knowingly at a crucial moment, I would see that being rude.

5 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

The stupider thing was fast-forwarding over the play, which was Kate's doing.  If you don't want to miss anything AND don't want to lag 'live', at least wait for a commercial to fast-forward. 

 

 

I've liked Toby from the very beginning - I usually like funny and sarcastic guys like that - and have never really understood the vitriolic hate towards him, especially during the first two episodes. That being said, I can see why people had some problems with his behavior in this ep, though not to the extent where it feels like people are acting like him pausing a live football game is tantamount to him killing her child with his bare hands right in front of her. He should have definitely respected that she said no and he should have been more apologetic when he came over after she left his house. He definitely has boundary issues, but Kate "I stalk my boyfriend's exes and take jobs from them" clearly does, too. And she really, really needs to learn to - not just to say no when she needs to - but to communicate better. The whole situation in the last ep snowballed because she couldn't be bothered to open her mouth and just ask him about the situation with his ex. I mean, I'm not entirely unsympathetic to Kate here. I definitely have my own communication issues and need to learn to say "no" more, but I'm not down with acting like Toby is the devil either.

I'd probably have to watch the scenes again, but I think part of the issue was that I don't think Toby truly realized how much football meant to her. Yeah, she said she liked watching football and it was something she did alone, but I don't think he got that she was an avid fan. I think that's why he pushed. I, honestly, believe if she'd just stuck to her guns after he gave her that card and said no, he would have backed off. He might have sulked about it, but I think he would have let it go, but once she agreed I think that just confirmed for him that it wasn't that big of a deal to her, which is why he thought it would be cool to invite his friend. Since he was clearly not a huge football fan I don't think he had any idea that he was pausing the game at such a crucial moment. And, like the poster I quoted said, it was stupid for Kate to insist after he paused it that he fast forward it. She couldn't just deal with it not being "live" for twelve seconds? I've been forced to sit through football games, I know they usually have commercials every two minutes. 

[femmefan1946]

I want more back story on Kate.

We know she has always been a big girl. And that she was Daddy's girl. And that she is a competent assistant for her brother.

But did she go to university? Randall certainly did, Kevin might have gone to a college with a theatre program.

Did she have a serious relationship there? Was it her first? Was he an abuser? Not physically, but mentally so that she finds it difficult not to have a man leading her? Did that relationship end about the time her father died?

And where did she decide that only nasty unpleasant food is healthy? Is this a way of punishing herself? Did she gain a lot of weight after that relationship ended? Or when her dad died?

[breezy424]

It's interesting that so many of us have enjoyed Randall's story the best so far.  Full credit to the actors but I also feel that  we've been given the most of a peek, so to speak, into his life so far, especially his current life.   We've seen him with his wife, his children, his father, his mother, his stepfather....  And IMO, this is a part of what is making Randall much more interesting at this point. 

With Kate and Kevin, we've only been given hints of their relationship and Kate's relationship with Toby in the present.  I'm looking forward to see 'their' relationship with their mother as well as their stepfather.  We don't know yet....

[Jx223]

I just got into this show and have caught up on all the episodes. I love it. I love almost all the characters especially Jack, The Big Three, William and Randall's daughters.

Learning Jack is dead is heartbreaking. I'm not surprised he's dead but I wish he still would have been alive in the present day. Even if that meant him and Rebecca were divorced. I wish they would reveal how/when he died sooner than later. Though I suspect they will drag it out. I'm hoping he got at least got 20+ years with Rebecca and the kids. I think it would be more comforting if it's revealed that he at least lived long enough to see and guide the kids into adulthood.

Also, I had actually wondered if Kevin may have been serious when he asked William "Can You Read?" I had wondered if he asked that because William was an addict and maybe he thought he had spent most of his life living in and out of the streets. Maybe he thought that William didn't spend much time getting an education. But I could also see a scenario where he could have been joking and was just to lighten things up in an awkward manner.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Jx223

[Jx223]

3 hours ago, femmefan1946 said:

I want more back story on Kate.

I am interested in seeing how Kate interacts with the older Rebecca and Randall. In the flashbacks when young Kate is shown struggling with her weight Rebecca appeared at times to be embarrassed for her daughter (Like at the pool). Jack was the one that seemed to be more at ease with how Kate was.  It didn't seem as worried about her weight and really only got upset when she got that mean note.

I am interested in seeing how Kate interacts with her mother as an adult and how they might discuss her continued struggle with weight, her plans on losing it and her relationship with Toby.

I also want to see how she interacts with Randall. I want to see how close they are. I would guess she is closer to him than he is to Kevin given how Kevin treated him as a kid. Randall did call Kevin out for not being that good of a brother to him. I think that Kate treated Randall better.

And even in spite of Kevin's behavior as a kid, Randall's family(especially the girls)still are familiar with him and love him. So hopefully they have bonded/enjoy Kate as well.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Jx223

[SlackerInc]

On 10/25/2016 at 9:02 PM, PreviouslyTV said:

If you feel like someone just read your emotional scrapbook to the world, you're not alone.

View the full article

That was really well written, especially the first part (before you started feeling awkward about being so serious).

On 10/25/2016 at 9:42 PM, AuntieL said:

When Toby paused the game I was all "Dude!  Have you never met a football fan before?" 

 

On 10/26/2016 at 8:53 AM, PRgal said:

Never, ever, ever pause ANYTHING live.  Not just games (especially playoffs/finals), but debates and even award shows.  Except, maybe, a kooky ABC musical (which usually sucks compared to a live stage production or the movie). 

I clicked the above two to respond to before I saw that others felt differently, so I'm apparently not a total oddball as I thought I might be.  (Is there a way to clear some of the multi-quotes out without clearing all of them?)

On 10/26/2016 at 11:20 PM, chocolatine said:

Just to give my two cents on the dos and don'ts of pausing live television: I live in Seattle, in a densely populated neighborhood, and when the Seahawks are playing and scoring touchdowns, I can hear most of my neighbors cheer. So if I were invested in football, I would absolutely not tolerate any pausing, because the neighbors' cheering would "spoil" the game for me. So I'm firmly on the "don't" team.

If that were the deal (I'm a Vikings fan living in Missouri), I can see how that would definitely be an issue.

14 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

In my own experience, the loss of a dear parent is never gotten over.  I'm coming up on 8 years since my mother's death, and nope, not over it.  Functioning, happy for the most part, but the hole is still there and will always be.  Tying it in to Kate, her missing the presence of her father in her life may be part of why she is attracted to Toby, I think it has been posted in one of the threads that Toby and Jack have similarities and I see that, too.  Both have quirky humor, and are nurturing (Toby in his own pushy way), and that makes Kate feel accepted and cared for.  Toby is still wrong for her now, he is too domineering and she's not a kid anymore.

Agreed.  I'm much happier than most people from what I can tell, but I definitely still have a hole in my heart from my father's death, which was closer to thirty years ago.

11 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

The stupider thing was fast-forwarding over the play, which was Kate's doing.  If you don't want to miss anything AND don't want to lag 'live', at least wait for a commercial to fast-forward. 

Yes!  We agree on this as on many things, it seems.  :)  She had a perfectly good chance to get back to live during the next commercial.  Or for that matter, given the way football works--short bursts of action with 20-40 seconds between plays--she could have even fast forwarded between each play and gotten caught up before the commercial without missing any action.

ETA: Two notes I took while watching.  "Okay, I've defended Toby in past weeks, but he was definitely too pushy this week."  "Kevin's initial attempt to talk to the girls about death was hilariously unhelpful."  (But he did make it very right at the end!

Edited October 28, 2016 by SlackerInc

[HeySandyStrange]

On ‎10‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 9:20 PM, breezy424 said:

And geez, when did the eighties become the fifties?  Just from reading posts and things showed on the series: 

No, segregation did not exist in the eighties - people tend to gravitate toward people who they have things in common with:  At the community pool - older people gravitate to other older people, people with kids gravitate to other people who have young kids, people gravitate to their own race, or the same religion.  Not much different,  if at all, from today.

And yeah, people had children of different races in the eighties.  Sorry, it wasn't the 'shock' that some may think.  One of my closest friends did.

I think how open minded people were back in the 80s had a lot to do with were you lived, though. In the 90s, I went from being an Army brat in a very multiracial community  to being a civilian kid in a small town in the bible-belt South and...yeah, quite a few people there lived in a totally different decade.  Of course, no segregation and there were biracial people, but the level of open racism and hostility (yes, even at pools) was nuts. So while it wasn't the 50s, the 80s and 90s weren't some Candyland of peaceful race relations either.

Edited October 28, 2016 by HeySandyStrange

[BoogieBurns]

9 minutes ago, HeySandyStrange said:

I think how open minded people were back in the 80s had a lot to do with were you lived, though.

For sure! I was living in southern California in the late 80's then Austin in the 90's. So, I had surroundings that were quite tolerant/open-minded. 

[TomServo]

On 10/26/2016 at 3:25 PM, Winston9-DT3 said:

I'd say I must be made of stone but I tear up all the time, sometimes at commercials.  But never during this show.  

Me, either.  Or very much for Parenthood.  I did cry when watching that Netflix documentary about Mitt Romney and I saw how much he genuinely loved spending time with his grandkids.  And some episodes of Call the Midwife.
 

Quote

The biological clock for having kids back then was a little different back then but thirty?  Not so much.

Actually, it was then and still is.  We have a little more technology now to help overcome it, but availability of technology is not a guarantee of success.  Most women's natural fertility begins its decline in the late-20's.

Rebecca is my least favorite character on the show.  She comes across as a bit of a princess who treats the way she wants things to be as what everybody else ought to want, too.  She pushed discussions about having kids into "later" until her husband couldn't stand it anymore.  She told William that he wasn't allowed to see Randall, but then when Randall took the initiative to find William, she accused William of breaking "the agreement," as though William had been given a choice in the matter either time.  She micromanaged Kate's eating and blamed attributed the bullying to Kate's not having worn a t-shirt (when nobody else in their family was wearing a t-shirt, either).  She obsessed over Randall to the exclusion of Kevin, and ordered Kevin to stick up for his brother without showing any empathy for the fact that the peer pressure was a form of bullying Kevin, too.  She probably could have helped Kevin and Randall have a better relationship if she'd handled that differently.  And so forth...

I have a suspicion that the lack of great chemistry between Rebecca and Jack is on purpose.  It feels like the writers are going for a "Miguel turned out to be a better match for her in the end" set-up.  Miguel chides Jack about his drinking, and then we get a scene where Rebecca does the same.  Rebecca thinks kids will ruin the life they have, and when Jack goes to Miguel to vent about it, Miguel agrees that kids mess everything up (and present-day Rebecca hasn't yet been written as though she has a close relationship with the Big Three.  We've had a few "remember what dad used to say?" scenes but I don't recall a balancing "remember what Mom is always telling us?" kind of scene).  Not to mention that Jack's ashes are all the way out in California on Kate's mantel instead of with Rebecca.

I give Toby a pass on his reaction to the urn, as I'd probably think the same thing if someone said, "Meet my dad!" while plopping a jar of cremains in my hands.  Whether my filter would catch it before the thought passed my lips, I don't know.  Toby during the rest of the episode, though, no.  People like that get on my nerves really fast.  I agree that whole scene was contrived.  I could understand Kate's not wanting to share about her dad right away, but the point at which she changed her mind and decided to share didn't make sense.  After all that, as soon as Toby said, "No hanging out on Sundays during football season," I would have said something like, "Thanks; my football ritual is important to me and someday I will explain it to you.  We can hang out before or after, though." but instead she picked that moment to unload the whole thing on him after clearly not having been ready before.

I enjoyed the juxtaposition of Jack/Rebecca contemplating kids in the past and Randall/Beth contemplating it in the present.  Also, Randall and Beth's girls are being written "young" for their age.  If nobody had said how old they were, I would have guessed from the dialog that they were more like 8 and 5.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, TomServo said:

if someone said, "Meet my dad!" while plopping a jar of cremains in my hands.  

The way I recall it was Toby brought up wanting to meet her dad and Kate just picked up the urn.  

[ShadowFacts]

11 minutes ago, TomServo said:

I give Toby a pass on his reaction to the urn, as I'd probably think the same thing if someone said, "Meet my dad!" while plopping a jar of cremains in my hands.  Whether my filter would catch it before the thought passed my lips, I don't know.  Toby during the rest of the episode, though, no.  People like that get on my nerves really fast.  I agree that whole scene was contrived.  I could understand Kate's not wanting to share about her dad right away, but the point at which she changed her mind and decided to share didn't make sense.  After all that, as soon as Toby said, "No hanging out on Sundays during football season," I would have said something like, "Thanks; my football ritual is important to me and someday I will explain it to you.  We can hang out before or after, though." but instead she picked that moment to unload the whole thing on him after clearly not having been ready before.

This goes along with the contrivance of having the light bulb go off over Kevin's head when he decided (I think in the closet) that he was hindering Kate and fired her, and also Rebecca in the space of one Super Bowl fight warming up to, and conceiving children.  Too much shorthand. 

[DebbieM4]

On 10/25/2016 at 10:14 PM, CleoCaesar said:

There seems to be a camp of viewers who think Toby is romantic and determined because he's so into Kate, and a camp that thinks he's incredibly pushy, crass, and obnoxious. I am firmly in the latter. Grand romantic gestures don't mean squat if you can't do something as basic as respect a person's alone time.

I agree.  I'm all for romantic gestures, but I would find him annoying.  His focus seems to be on saving her and fixing her rather than respecting who she is, loving her, and working on a relationship together.  He always has to be in control, and he's far too obsessed.  Borderline creepy.  He needs her more than she needs him, but he seems to think it's the opposite.

I would really love to see her with someone else.  She can do better than this guy.

[Calvada]

As a diehard Packers fan, I so related to Kate.  I too always want to watch their games alone, without anyone else making comments, offering their analysis, etc.  I could not have reacted with the restraint she did if someone paused the game as I was watching it.  And I have to say, just for a moment I felt sad that my Packers beating the Steelers in the Super Bowl a few years back would have made fictional Kate sad.  Damn show has roped me in! 

[mojoween]

The Steelers played the LA Rams in January 1980.  If the kids were born in 1979 that SB party they went to should have been celebrating Pitt and Dallas.