Good Speculation: Non-Spoilered Thoughts About What's Really Going On

[whiporee]

This is Gen's test, y'all. It's not designed to help the four newcomers at all -- it wouldn't surprise me if they aren't "real" in the end. This is to see whether Eleanor can truly be self-sacrificing, whether Tahani can get past her actual demons (which weren't jealousy bu the need for approval from others). i don't know who's showing up to torture Jason, but I think Chidi already passed his "decisiveness" test by quickly and inexorably making the hardest choice he could. It's to see how far Janet can progress, and whether Michael can rise further above middle management. 

In the end, the show is a really good escape room -- the kind where you think you're out and you're just in the next room. The part everyone is playing is part of a much bigger picture.

I didn't think so until Eleanore and Janet's last conversation. Unless Mike Schurr is much crueler than he's ever let on, this version of reality doesn't mesh with anything else he's said or done. So there must be something else going on -- something beyond the rules we've been told. I think that's the eventual arc, but we ain't there yet. This latest is just another test. 

[braziliangirl]

1 hour ago, whiporee said:

This is Gen's test, y'all. It's not designed to help the four newcomers at all -- it wouldn't surprise me if they aren't "real" in the end. This is to see whether Eleanor can truly be self-sacrificing, whether Tahani can get past her actual demons (which weren't jealousy bu the need for approval from others). i don't know who's showing up to torture Jason, but I think Chidi already passed his "decisiveness" test by quickly and inexorably making the hardest choice he could. It's to see how far Janet can progress, and whether Michael can rise further above middle management. 

In the end, the show is a really good escape room -- the kind where you think you're out and you're just in the next room. The part everyone is playing is part of a much bigger picture.

I didn't think so until Eleanore and Janet's last conversation. Unless Mike Schurr is much crueler than he's ever let on, this version of reality doesn't mesh with anything else he's said or done. So there must be something else going on -- something beyond the rules we've been told. I think that's the eventual arc, but we ain't there yet. This latest is just another test. 

 this would be great. really. 

[John Potts]

I was listening to this on YouTube (particularly the line "Like a GOD!") I started wondering - Is Janet God? She is:

- From the Good Place (according to Michael, at least)

- Apparently Omnipotent (she can get you anything you want - and creates it out of nothing)

- Apparently Omniscient (she can always hear when she's called)

- Benevolent

- Is the only being that can travel freely between The Good, Bad and Medium Place*

- Can kick demon butt!

OTOH, we have seen her reset (multiple times, in fact) - but we only have her word for it that she really doesn't remember each cycle. Maybe this is just God's way of goofing off for a millennia or so!

(I suppose I should add that God isn't usually depicted as a woman, but I suspect that may be because the Books of the Bible were overwhelmingly written by and certainly selected by men! Also, I'm assuming a predominately Judeo-Christian version of God, which is not necessarily true).

* I've only seen up to mid Season 2, so it's possible others can, too

[aradia22]

Not really speculation, more of a wish. But given the fact that they put Michael behind a bar, I would love this show forever and ever if they could get Shelley Long and finally give Sam and Diane a satisfying ending (unlike the tragic nonsense they wrote for the end of Cheers). It doesn't even have to be a big thing. Just them holding hands in whatever final scene we get when the show ends. 

I know it's never, ever going to happen but I can dream.

[Notwisconsin]

On 7/5/2019 at 10:32 PM, John Potts said:

Is Janet God?

No. She's an angel, though.

[aradia22]

Quote

This, plus Tahani is only famous for being (1) Kamilah's sister and (2) a socialite who hangs out with big names and raises big money for charity. I think that from Eleanor's perspective, Tahani would be the boring kind of celebrity who's not worth reading about -- as far as socialites go, Eleanor would only be interested in the ones known for scandals and general bad behavior, like Paris Hilton. I think Eleanor, like a lot of celebrity-watchers, is really into it just to see the train wrecks (she tells Chidi something to the effect of "I actually read a book that wasn't written by a 'Real Housewife'!"). And Tahani would avoid scandal like she'd avoid last month's fashions.

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I think geography also has a lot to do with Eleanor not recognizing Tahani. Tahani is a London socialite and Eleanor lived in Arizona. I’m an American who watches a few British reality shows and I can tell you I know very few of the British celebrities before they appear on Strictly. Someone who is part of the social elite on London probably isn’t well known to your average American.

It's difficult to think of a real life equivalent of Tahani because Kamilah makes no sense. She's an art world darling and a pop star and who remembers what else. Like, Madonna if people took her attempts to be deep more seriously. Or Angelina Jolie + Lady Gaga? Anyway, I was thinking of Pippa Middleton as a Tahani analog. I've heard of her but I wouldn't fawn over her. And while I watch fewer British shows now, even when I was watching QI and Buzzcocks and X Factor UK, there were plenty of people from Made in Chelsea and I'm a Celebrity and Big Brother who would be well-known socialites and tabloid fodder in the UK who I'd never heard of. 

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I amm convinced Michael has been an angel the whole time. In Catholic tradition: Michael descends at the hour of death, and gives each soul the chance to redeem itself before passing; thus consternating the devil and his minions.

I guess it depends on how much of what we've been shown/told that we can trust. Like, we've seen Michael "torturing" the humans in his fake Good Place, though arguably it's considerably lighter torture than they could expect in the Bad Place. We saw Michael at a desk job before he got promoted to fake architect but he could conceivably have been involved in regular demon torture. I can't recall if we've gotten confirmation of that but if we have, that would suggest he is really a demon. I've expressed that I'm tired of him getting dunked on all the time. Him not being a demon would explain why he's so bad at comebacks or being all that evil with the other demons now that he has nothing to hide. It does not explain why so many people would be lying to cover up that Michael is really an angel (Shawn, Gen, Trevor, Vicky, etc.) since we have plenty of scenes where they wouldn't be lying for the benefit of the humans. So plenty of people seem to think Michael is a demon. With my rudimentary knowledge of Catholicism, aren't demons supposed to be fallen angels? I can see it basically as the show has laid it out. He was always a demon but demons have the potential to change. They aren't all just comically evil like Trevor. And by helping the humans, he can earn angel status. Or get into the Good Place. Whatever. This chance for redemption wasn't a system that was always in place but it will be going forward.

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I've never head the term trashbag used to describe a person before I heard Trevor use it in the first season. But now Eleanor self0describes that way.

We frequent different internet places. I've heard all kinds of synonyms for trash and garbage used to describe people for years.

[John Potts]

4 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

So plenty of people seem to think Michael is a demon. With my rudimentary knowledge of Catholicism, aren't demons supposed to be fallen angels?

Yes, demons are (supposedly) fallen angels. I see Michael as being the equivalent to Crowley from Good Omens: "A demon who did not so much fall as saunter vaguely downwards" (to quote the book). Like (I guess) Eleanor - or probably most people, if we're honest - he wants what's easiest for him, even if it means inconveniencing others, that doesn't mean he actually wants to hurt people. At least, that's how I see it.

(Of course, we were told that Catholicism is only about 5% correct, but it seems consistent with what we've seen onscreen).

[ally862]

Just watched the premiere.  Anyone else think Glen might end up being important?  Maybe he'll get sick of everyone blowing him off, turn against them and be the one to save the day.

[SoMuchTV]

The 4.1 thread is getting into some speculation about Janet and her powers, but this isn't really episode-related, so I'll ask here:  Can Janet be "summoned" by two different people at the same time?  (And it's not just humans who can summon her, right? Michael has, hasn't he?)  Does she split into multiple Jeremy Bearimy timelines?  Inquiring minds...

[BobH]

I sometimes wonder if it's at all possible to reconcile what we're told about Janet. I guess we have to sort of handwave that Michael managed some sort of restraining trick on her originally to prevent her from realizing that they were really in the Bad Place and all the residents but four were demons, and prevent her from having knowledge of any previous reboots. I don't think they've acknowledged it specifically, but at some point I guess she got back all her memories and now knows the details of every previous version (the closest they've come is saying that she saved every previous reboot in the episode where Eleanor re-lived some of them).  But are there any remaining restraints? Shouldn't she have known that one of the residents was a demon in disguise?

Looking at the previous seasons, it looks like the tendency is to have a three act structure, with one major game changing revelation at the end of the third or fourth chapter (Season 1, Jason also doesn't belong, Season 2, Michael proposes they team up, Season 3, they discover Michael and Janet at the afterlife door) and then another around seven or eight (Season 1, Eleanor confesses, Season 2, Shawn shows up to end the experiment, Season 3, leaving Earth for Janet's void and the afterlife). So I'd expect that next week will have some surprises seem to set up a new status quo, which will completely be upended within two weeks, then another shift about a month later which should set the premise that drives towards the finale.

I think the next shift will have something to do with the accountant who was assigned in the most recent episode, and maybe Mindy. 

Edited September 27, 2019 by BobH

[pennben]

I’m keeping my eye on Derek. In addition to Jason “murdering” him in the premiere, Mindy talks about how very many times she has reset him. So, although he starts over, I’m expecting a twist with him being much more advanced/Janet-like than we expect.  

[Lugal]

On 9/27/2019 at 6:41 AM, ally862 said:

Just watched the premiere.  Anyone else think Glen might end up being important?  Maybe he'll get sick of everyone blowing him off, turn against them and be the one to save the day.

I've been wondering about that too.  Especially after watching The Selection.

[ally862]

On 9/29/2019 at 5:41 PM, Lugal said:

I've been wondering about that too.  Especially after watching The Selection.

Yes, exactly!  The Selection definitely made me think that.

[BobH]

So, for some reason my DVR picked up a repeat of some season 1 episodes on the Family Channel.  I took a quick look at one of them, and it was just bizarre to see Mindy tell her life story with every reference to cocaine edited out, especially since I've seen it often enough that my mind automatically fills in the missing dialogue.

But what that did remind me of was that Shawn refers to Elinor's case as "Case #00003".  Obviously we know now that he was lying, but at the time I guess we were supposed to think one of the two previous cases was Mindy.  Has there been any reference to what the other case might be, presumably (but not definitely) before Mindy's? Is there a chance that'll factor into the endgame for the show?

[BobH]

So, who's this now?  I guess it's possible it's someone completely new, never mentioned before, but it's kind of late in the game for that.

Is it the real Michael or Janet, having been replaced on the train in the season opener?

Is it Trevor, back from being tossed off the bridge by the Judge?

Jeff, the doorman? Last we saw he seemed to get off without punishment for letting Michael and Janet escape to Earth.

Gwendolyn from the Good Place post office, with a special delivery?

Trent, the torture master demon who looks just like Chidi?

Someone from the Janet warehouse who finally noticed one of the their Janets was missing?

Someone from accounting, maybe? Was that accountant sealed up in the obelisk the real deal, or maybe replaced by Shawn?

Monk, from the TV show MONK?

Luke Skywalker?

Edited October 11, 2019 by BobH

[bros402]

On 10/9/2019 at 1:44 PM, BobH said:

So, for some reason my DVR picked up a repeat of some season 1 episodes on the Family Channel.  I took a quick look at one of them, and it was just bizarre to see Mindy tell her life story with every reference to cocaine edited out, especially since I've seen it often enough that my mind automatically fills in the missing dialogue.

But what that did remind me of was that Shawn refers to Elinor's case as "Case #00003".  Obviously we know now that he was lying, but at the time I guess we were supposed to think one of the two previous cases was Mindy.  Has there been any reference to what the other case might be, presumably (but not definitely) before Mindy's? Is there a chance that'll factor into the endgame for the show?

That censored version sounds entertaining.

I definitely think Mindy was case #3 - and Mindy's tape in the Medium Place definitely indicates there was some back-and-forth over who would get her, before it was decided upon that she would get her own Medium Place.

I imagine some people would think Case #1 would be some religious figure like Jesus, but it is probably someone like Bob the Farmer who died in 1602 who kept slaves, but saved everyone from a fire, and gave his slaves their freedom on his deathbed.

On 10/11/2019 at 1:27 PM, BobH said:

So, who's this now?  I guess it's possible it's someone completely new, never mentioned before, but it's kind of late in the game for that.

Is it the real Michael or Janet, having been replaced on the train in the season opener?

Is it Trevor, back from being tossed off the bridge by the Judge?

Jeff, the doorman? Last we saw he seemed to get off without punishment for letting Michael and Janet escape to Earth.

Gwendolyn from the Good Place post office, with a special delivery?

Trent, the torture master demon who looks just like Chidi?

Someone from the Janet warehouse who finally noticed one of the their Janets was missing?

Someone from accounting, maybe? Was that accountant sealed up in the obelisk the real deal, or maybe replaced by Shawn?

Monk, from the TV show MONK?

Luke Skywalker?

Hmmm, this is a hard one.

I'd like it to be the Doorman, Mike O'Malley is always pleasant.

[Loandbehold]

Given that the cast has said that the ending is bittersweet (I don't recall the exact word(s) used), I have a feeling that, like Moses, Eleanor will be able to lead humanity to The Good Place, but won't be able to go in or stay herself. This is based on this last episode where she admitted how much she loved torturing Chidi, even though she also felt bad about it. I think Eleanor might be put in charge of the Medium Place (or Purgatory) where she helps those who don't deserve to go to the Bad Place, but need to build up their resume of good deeds to make it into the Good Place.

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, Loandbehold said:

Given that the cast has said that the ending is bittersweet (I don't recall the exact word(s) used), I have a feeling that, like Moses, Eleanor will be able to lead humanity to The Good Place, but won't be able to go in or stay herself. This is based on this last episode where she admitted how much she loved torturing Chidi, even though she also felt bad about it. I think Eleanor might be put in charge of the Medium Place (or Purgatory) where she helps those who don't deserve to go to the Bad Place, but need to build up their resume of good deeds to make it into the Good Place.

I could live with that ending as long as the rest of Team Cockroach is assisting her.  Chidi, Jason, and Tahani choosing to forgo their chance at the Good Place to be with Eleanor would be a bittersweet but satisfying ending.  

[Ailianna]

I'm not entirely sure where to put this, but reading comments about Brent made me think--does the experiment require that ALL the humans improve, or only that they show that at least SOME humans can improve?  And does Chidi count, since they've already seen him improve.  Just a random thought during too much time watching and loving this show.

[Loandbehold]

6 hours ago, Ailianna said:

And does Chidi count, since they've already seen him improve.  Just a random thought during too much time watching and loving this show.

Since Gen made Chidi officially part of the experiment due to Bad Place interference, he counts.

[companionenvy]

Since Paradise Lost came up last season, I've been wondering if the show wasn't inspired by another famous quote from the poem: "The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, or a hell of heaven."

Now, I don't think that's quite true in TGP universe -- penis flatteners would make it difficult to make The Bad Place into a heaven -- but I wouldn't be surprised with an ending where, essentially, almost everyone wound up in some version of The Medium Place, with the understanding that people who proved capable of improvement would wind up making a good life for themselves there, whereas the less redeemable would wind up making life in TMP its own kind of hell.

I've also wondered, since the revelation about TGP, whether Mindy St. Clair and her situation are what they appear to be. Because Mindy being a special case made sense when we still believed people were actually being admitted to the Good Place, but if no one has gotten in in 500 years, Mindy's Medium Place compromise would imply Mindy has been the best person in centuries, which doesn't track.

Maybe this is just a case of the show not having known exactly where it was going when Mindy was invented, but it seems at least worth considering that there's something else afoot. Was Mindy someone else's experiment as to whether or not a generally lousy person with some good impulses could improve? Does Mindy exist at all, or is she a suit for some demon/angel/deity who has adopted the Medium Place ruse for the purpose of keeping a closer eye on...someone or something?

[Sarah 103]

16 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Was Mindy someone else's experiment as to whether or not a generally lousy person with some good impulses could improve? Does Mindy exist at all, or is she a suit for some demon/angel/deity who has adopted the Medium Place ruse for the purpose of keeping a closer eye on...someone or something?

I like the part of your theory I put in bold. I do believe Mindy exists and I do not think that is some variety of demon/angel/deity. Mindy as someone else's experiment makes complete sense, because it strengthens the argument that no one has gotten into the Good Place in 500 years. Because Mindy did not improve, this allowed the entities in charge to claim that humans lacked the ability to improve, and so they all deserved to go to the Bad Place. 

[Loandbehold]

15 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I like the part of your theory I put in bold. I do believe Mindy exists and I do not think that is some variety of demon/angel/deity. Mindy as someone else's experiment makes complete sense, because it strengthens the argument that no one has gotten into the Good Place in 500 years. Because Mindy did not improve, this allowed the entities in charge to claim that humans lacked the ability to improve, and so they all deserved to go to the Bad Place. 

The problem I see with this is that Mindy was put into a universe where she was literally the only other person / being. How could she improve and learn to help others selflessly when there's nobody else around? She was put there well before Michael's experiment began so I doubt that "The Good Place" torture gambit was in anyone's mind at that point in time.

[possibilities]

Normally, solitary confinement is considered a from of torture. Putting Mindy in a place alone has basically been treated as a joke, on a show that's usually way more planned and thoughtful than that.

[Notwisconsin]

Mindy was the best person in the world during a period of half a millennium. Either that, or the number of people who have gotten into the "real" good place was BS.

[Notwisconsin]

Quote

NBC will say goodbye to The Good Place on Jan. 30 with a 90-minute block of programming: an extended series finale (likely around an hour), followed by an aftershow featuring the show's cast and hosted by Seth Meyers.—The Hollywood Reporter.

So either next week is the penultimate show, or there will be a bunch of episodes next month.

[Loandbehold]

On 11/8/2019 at 3:01 PM, Notwisconsin said:

So either next week is the penultimate show, or there will be a bunch of episodes next month.

We're half-way through the season right now. 

[General Days]

On 11/3/2019 at 8:06 PM, Notwisconsin said:

Mindy was the best person in the world during a period of half a millennium. Either that, or the number of people who have gotten into the "real" good place was BS.

The story about Mindy (whether or not it is true or a misdirect) isn't that she was the best person. It's that she accomplished the most good, i.e. did the best thing. She was a horrible person who did (or started to do) one good thing, which had such tremendous positive fallout.

I just make that distinction, because of Chidi, who was certainly always oriented toward good, but he was so paralyzed that he didn't accomplish good. 

Even his book, which maybe would have helped anyone who read it and passed on its messages, wasn't a good accomplishment, because it was too long and confused to be practical.

I feel like the show might end with a "Trying Place" (which may be called something different). This season has been hitting the, "Oh we failed, let's try something else," pretty hard.

[whiporee]

I think we're in Eleanor's head, and everyone we've seen is a facet of her personality -- they don't evaporate when isn't there, so they can exist when she's off screen in the story. Or it might not even be Eleanor, but someone else who is dying and trying to explain all the facets of themselves to themselves. You could make the case that none of them are very well defined beyond their singular characteristic -- Jason is well-intentioned id, Chidi is the part of her that tries to do the right thing, Tahani is the part of her who is envious and wishes she were more, Janet the totality of her knowledge and Michael is the father figure who was bad but is trying very hard to be good and really loves her after all. 

I think this because there are just too many loose ends to have any of it make sense, and not enough time to fix them. if the show was running for a decade or completely open-endedly, then sure. But Schurr is better than that, and I can't believe, at the end of the day, he would give us such simplistic answers. Given the 500-year gap between people getting in, there's no justifiable way Mindy or the Medium Place really exists. Both the Good Place and the Bad Place are completely undefined. They're asking some good questions -- what makes, for example, Brent a bad person? Only American expectations in 2019, because there are plenty of places in the world where he'd be considered practically a saint. Or Simone, for that matter? Or John? The idea made sense right at the moment of death, but as you stick around, it makes less and less so. So then it's a trick, but she's smart enough to get out of it. Time and time again. But even given the rules of the show, a Molotov cocktail shouldn't have been enough to get them out of the Bad Place, for example. Or any of the stuff that's happened just doesn't really make any sense.  

It's a mind trying to come to grips with the idea that they've died, trying to figure a way out of the dark. it doesn't diminish any of the things that have happened, but as I've thought about it while hanging Christmas lights, it appears that none of it is what it appears to be. 

[Ailianna]

11 hours ago, whiporee said:

I think we're in Eleanor's head, and everyone we've seen is a facet of her personality -- they don't evaporate when isn't there, so they can exist when she's off screen in the story. Or it might not even be Eleanor, but someone else who is dying and trying to explain all the facets of themselves to themselves. You could make the case that none of them are very well defined beyond their singular characteristic -- Jason is well-intentioned id, Chidi is the part of her that tries to do the right thing, Tahani is the part of her who is envious and wishes she were more, Janet the totality of her knowledge and Michael is the father figure who was bad but is trying very hard to be good and really loves her after all. 

I think this because there are just too many loose ends to have any of it make sense, and not enough time to fix them. if the show was running for a decade or completely open-endedly, then sure. But Schurr is better than that, and I can't believe, at the end of the day, he would give us such simplistic answers. Given the 500-year gap between people getting in, there's no justifiable way Mindy or the Medium Place really exists. Both the Good Place and the Bad Place are completely undefined. They're asking some good questions -- what makes, for example, Brent a bad person? Only American expectations in 2019, because there are plenty of places in the world where he'd be considered practically a saint. Or Simone, for that matter? Or John? The idea made sense right at the moment of death, but as you stick around, it makes less and less so. So then it's a trick, but she's smart enough to get out of it. Time and time again. But even given the rules of the show, a Molotov cocktail shouldn't have been enough to get them out of the Bad Place, for example. Or any of the stuff that's happened just doesn't really make any sense.  

It's a mind trying to come to grips with the idea that they've died, trying to figure a way out of the dark. it doesn't diminish any of the things that have happened, but as I've thought about it while hanging Christmas lights, it appears that none of it is what it appears to be. 

Simone?

[ParadoxLost]

5 hours ago, possibilities said:

I have an idea, but I've learned not to predict this show too much, and just go along for the ride. I'm curious what you think is coming, though. Maybe we should take that conversation to the speculation thread.

Yeah,  I find that having an idea makes me think I'm wrong because there have been so many times that something came out of left field but in hindsight made total sense.

But right now, I'm convinced that the are setting up the redesign of the afterlife to be  reincarnation. 

Reincarnation is basically what the whole show has been.  Rebooting the neighborhood.  A second chance at their life on Earth.  An experiment to see if rebooting the neighbor would work on a different group of humans. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Yeah,  I find that having an idea makes me think I'm wrong because there have been so many times that something came out of left field but in hindsight made total sense.

But right now, I'm convinced that the are setting up the redesign of the afterlife to be  reincarnation. 

Reincarnation is basically what the whole show has been.  Rebooting the neighborhood.  A second chance at their life on Earth.  An experiment to see if rebooting the neighbor would work on a different group of humans. 

Yeah. I’ve been wondering for a few episodes if that was the direction that they are going. I think it’s a logical conclusion. But there as also been a lot of focus on the importance of human connection and reincarnation alone wouldn’t be enough. But reincarnation as one aspect of several changes would make sense. 
 

The last few episodes have made me think a lot about the afterlife system on Defending Your Life.  I could see the show going in that direction where after you die you review your life to decide where you go. I hope the solution will be a more fluid system than the points. 

[possibilities]

Maybe they will replace Gen and the point system with Michael, Eleanor, and Chidi as a governing panel, and put Tahani and Jason on the committee as well.

[cardigirl]

I have a feeling I know what the real answer will be, but how they will portray that remains to be seen. I have truly enjoyed this show and will miss it. 

[jacehan]

I don't think reincarnation makes sense as a solution because nobody gets into the Good Place anymore. If there were some people still, it might make sense to let people keep trying until they are good. But if that never happens because the system is biased, another solution is needed.

[ByTor]

After seeing this latest episode, I have a prediction.  They are all going to the Good Place.  Michael, being a demon, will not be allowed to stay.  The other 4, however, will not want to spend an eternity without him, so all 5 will return to The Bad Place (or whatever it's being called now) to help people pass their tests.

[chaifan]

As they climbed into the balloon, I again thought of the parallel to Wizard of Oz.  What did those characters want?  "If I only had a brain... a heart, a home, the nerve."

Jason is the scarecrow (thinks he needs a brain, but has shown himself to be smart, in his own unique way)

Eleanor is the tin man (she lacked a heart as it relates to love and empathy for others, as she never really cared about others before, only herself, and now she loves/and is loved by Chidi and has cared enough about others to save all of humanity)

Tahani is Dorothy (she seeks a home in being accepted by her family, and now has been fully accepted by her new family)

Chidi is the Cowardly Lion (he seeks courage of conviction, but has learned on his own how to make decisions like a boss)

And Michael is the Wizard - a true "man behind the curtain", who pretended to be something he's not.

Not exactly 100% spot on, but very close. 

So I'm wondering if the finale ties all this in, somehow. 

[BobH]

So, in that analogy, Janet is... Toto? No, wait, she already told us...

[chaifan]

Yes!  Janet is the picnic basket!  It contains everything the 4 need along their journey.  Have we ever seen her in red gingham?  hmmmm....

(Thanks for that, BobH.  I really couldn't figure out how to fit Janet into the Wizard of Oz world.  I feel complete now.)

 

[Yokosmom]

Quote

After seeing this latest episode, I have a prediction.  They are all going to the Good Place.  Michael, being a demon, will not be allowed to stay.  The other 4, however, will not want to spend an eternity without him, so all 5 will return to The Bad Place (or whatever it's being called now) to help people pass their tests

I'm expecting some version of this too, though perhaps not this exact scenario.  Our gang doesn't seem like it would fit in with the Good Place representatives that we've seen so far.  The ending has been called "bittersweet" by some of the actors.  Leaving heaven because it is (boring, mundane, just not right) doesn't sound bitter to me.  Perhaps some will decide to stay in heaven and others will realize that they don't want to stay there?  As you mentioned, Michael is a demon, but there is the problem of Janet who is "not a girl".  Hoping that Chidi and Eleanor aren't split up, at least.

[ParadoxLost]

So, I think this episode is setting up another swerve.  And we bought into it...again.

The solution to the Good Place problem makes no sense.  Just giving an option to have a finite ending solves nothing.  Patty is clearly unhappy that she has no reason to study or learn because poof... all the answers.  Nothing about a door that offers an out to ennui solves that.

 I personally can't wrap my head around the idea of being happy about never having to work through a problem and having the satisfaction of figuring it out.   What about a door changes that?  

This solution is basically to walk through a door if you get a moment of clarity that the Good Place is making you into a zombie.  

So I have an alternate theory.....

This is the scenario that was designed to make Michael, Janet, Eleanor, Chidi, Tahani, and Jason happy in the Good Place.  Because this is what makes them happy.  This is what has made them happy since the first neighborhood.  Coming together, working together, solving a problem, saving  each other and the world.

I'm now thinking after that sunset that they'll wake up to a new disaster to avert. 

Edited January 24, 2020 by ParadoxLost

[BobH]

I can't help but wonder where they'll go in the finale. Part of me is expecting one final twist, but it might be hard to pull that off knowing there won't be any more seasons to explore and follow up (unless we get "four seasons and a movie"). Otherwise it might be satisfying to have more of a curtain call, jumping forward, finding out how the likes of Shawn and Vicky and Gen are doing in the new system. But maybe that's too similar to the PARKS & REC finale.

I'm trusting them to come up with someone more clever, but I'm picturing a final scene at the end of time, with the six leads after everyone else has opted for the final door.

[Lois Sandborne]

Since the finale is supersized, I think we're going to see the arcs of everyone's paradise experiences,  capped by Michael making Eleanor an architect before he goes through the peaceful door.

[whiporee]

On 1/19/2020 at 11:58 AM, chaifan said:

As they climbed into the balloon, I again thought of the parallel to Wizard of Oz.  What did those characters want?  "If I only had a brain... a heart, a home, the nerve."

Jason is the scarecrow (thinks he needs a brain, but has shown himself to be smart, in his own unique way)

Eleanor is the tin man (she lacked a heart as it relates to love and empathy for others, as she never really cared about others before, only herself, and now she loves/and is loved by Chidi and has cared enough about others to save all of humanity)

Tahani is Dorothy (she seeks a home in being accepted by her family, and now has been fully accepted by her new family)

Chidi is the Cowardly Lion (he seeks courage of conviction, but has learned on his own how to make decisions like a boss)

And Michael is the Wizard - a true "man behind the curtain", who pretended to be something he's not.

Not exactly 100% spot on, but very close. 

So I'm wondering if the finale ties all this in, somehow. 

You didn't say it, but Janet is Glinda. 

When I read this last week, I thought it was cool but a reach. After listening to the podcast this morning, I think you're dead on right. I think they are going to go through the door, and we're going to have Eleanor in a coma or something after the shopping cart collision. All of them will be some sort of connection to people she already knows. Maybe they will be her group of friends from Earth, exaggerated to make them fit their GP counterparts. Like Tahani is her friend who reads tabloids. Jason is her dumb brother; Chidi's the best bud coworker. Stuff like that. 

But also, when Tahani said she felt like Dorthy landing in Oz, she got it wrong. Dorthy wasn't thrilled or spellbound; she was scared and terrified. Pretty big miss at a pretty key point. So I'm not sure that it will be Oz, but I'm  convinced that we're going to have some sort fo wake-up. It can't be a dream, because Newhart did that. Or a fantasy, because St. Elsewhere. Or heaven or hello because Lost. Or even a book because Rosanne 1.0. But we haven't had the Wizard of Oz ending yet, and my guess is that once it's shown, the Easter eggs are going to be so obvious we're going to be mad we didn't see it. 

Great find. 

Spoiler

While saying there will be one more big twist, the EP on the podcast this morning denied any connection to the Wizard of Oz. Pretty vehemently, like we've never had any thought of that at all.  These people are all too smart to have them all be missed, so I think he was trying to save us one last surprise. 

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by whiporee

[chaifan]

I really hope this doesn't end in a "it was just a dream" scenario.  I will be greatly disappointed at that.  I think the characters generally align with Wizard of Oz characters, but that's pretty much where I want the comparison to end. 

[Babalu]

What was shown in this episode (“Patty”) may be a good place, but I don’t believe it is The Good Place. In fact, it may be a more insidious version of The Bad Place (not the original Bad Place with butt spiders and penis flatteners, but maybe Shawn and Vicky’s version of  Michael’s version of the Bad Place).

 I don’t know what The Good Place will turn out to be - probably not a place at all, but an opportunity to do good, be happier, etc., whether via reincarnation or being  transformed some other way - some manifestation which is both you and not you.

I hope that Eleanor, Chidi, Jason, and Tahani are the first ones through the exit door and go because they have faith about what’s on the other side. I’d hate to see anyone go through it just toescape the boredom.

[Affogato]

On 1/24/2020 at 12:59 PM, whiporee said:

But also, when Tahani said she felt like Dorthy landing in Oz, she got it wrong. Dorthy wasn't thrilled or spellbound; she was scared and terrified. Pretty big miss at a pretty key point. So I'm not sure that it will be Oz, but I'm  convinced that we're going to have some sort fo wake-up. It can't be a dream, because Newhart did that. Or a fantasy, because St. Elsewhere. Or heaven or hello because Lost. Or even a book because Rosanne 1.0. But we haven't had the Wizard of Oz ending yet, and my guess is that once it's shown, the Easter eggs are going to be so obvious we're going to be mad we didn't see it. 

Great find. 

  Reveal spoiler

While saying there will be one more big twist, the EP on the podcast this morning denied any connection to the Wizard of Oz. Pretty vehemently, like we've never had any thought of that at all.  These people are all too smart to have them all be missed, so I think he was trying to save us one last surprise. 

 

I love ‘heaven or hello’. Great typo. Good brand name. 
 

tahani wasn’t Dorothy, though. Eleanor was terrified of being found out and uncomfortable with her scary clown house and surroundings. 

[ClareWalks]

Just watched William Jackson Harper's interview with Seth Meyers last night. Seth mentioned that he was going to be "doing a post-show" with the cast after the finale. It's not mentioned for the Late Night episode description, so I'm assuming this might be part of the 90 minutes that has been allotted for the finale, which explains the length!

[Guest]

2 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

Just watched William Jackson Harper's interview with Seth Meyers last night. Seth mentioned that he was going to be "doing a post-show" with the cast after the finale. It's not mentioned for the Late Night episode description, so I'm assuming this might be part of the 90 minutes that has been allotted for the finale, which explains the length!

It is. It was scheduled as a block so that the final two episodes could go over their regular run-time if needed. The post show will fill whatever is remaining of the 90 minutes. 

[Affogato]

The bittersweet is that probbly wherever they go Michael and Janet can’t go with them.