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Celebrating 25 Years Of The West Wing

Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

Chris Knight

By Chris Knight
in Counting On

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Shout out to everyone participating in the conversation about Jill’s miscarriage/stillbirth. You’re navigating a difficult topic with respect and thoughtfulness and your contributions are kind, considerate, constructive and informative. 

Thank you. 💚💚

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GeeGolly

GeeGolly

It's NARM -- the CPM association. So, a standard-setting body made up of CPMs. .... You don't have to take any classes for their certification. You just have to read, basically. You get the information for the exams out of books, not classes. Plus, you do this practical stuff. ....

 

I do wonder about the numbers, though. Not about the assistant ones -- she clearly was doing that and would have been able to do that many certainly. ... But I don't recall anything being said about her being the primary caregiver for a bunch of births and exams, and she actually needed more of those than in the assistant category. Given that Venessa (or whatever her name was) got her license pulled sometime in there, so that Jill would probably have had to find a new mentor. Plus, she clearly did stop when her involvement with Derick began. So, given all that, it seems like a heck of a lot of primary-attendant stuff to have done, with the flux that was going on.

 

That's 135 exams and 20 births as primary attendant. That's a pretty big time commitment, in my opinion, considering that her mentor was kind of out of the business during that period, so she might have had to arrange a lot of the stuff herself -- make the appointments and everything. And if you're primary attendant at a birth, that's going to be a somewhat open-ended time commitment each time. AND, it seems that most likely would have been in her courting/engaged/wedding-planning period, too, when she was all in a whirl. And she stopped her practical work altogether once she was married, did she not?

 

I would think that those 20 babies in the photo were the 20 she delivered as primary -- except, as I recall it, they stated her role in their births in kind of modest terms. And if she had actually been the primary midwife for those 20 babies, why wouldn't they have put it that way? Plus, she's a Duggar, so I'm puzzled that I don't remember stuff being said about her actually doing a lot of work as the primary caregiver. Just seems to me like something they'd brag about. (heck, seems like something anybody who was doing this would brag about; I'd brag about it, I think.)

 

I'd just like to see a timeline that shows when she did all this stuff and how that schedule interlocks with her courting/wedding planning/now-I'm-married-so-I've-stopped-doing-anything period as well as with the Venessa-loses-her-Arkansas-license period. Because I can't make much sense of it. She may well have done all this stuff, but the main thing I remember from the most recent years is her NOT being involved with delivering babies.

So it is an association with no oversight?

 

I also wonder if they use the words Primary & Assistant interchangeably during training, to make sure students get the hours.

 

And... if the test is an at home online test, a tester would have their books from which to access the answers from.

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jb0495

jb0495

The only thing I remember during the midwife apprentice episodes is that I KNOW Jill clearly stated that she had done X births observing and then you move onto X as a primary. This is at least proof that she/Vanessa were following correct guidelines prior to Venessa's license issues. I really do hope Jill actually went about this certification correctly and that she is really qualified. I remember her being the only one who embraced the Spanish lesions with Marjorie's mom so I hope they did well in language school & do learn Spanish.

I can't for the life of me remember which episode this was but I know it was in the episode, maybe in a talking head. It could have possibly been the bridal shower from the birthing clients episode. Wish I could find a clip. I'll look to see what I can find.

Anyone see the pictures/video Jessa posted on her FB today of Izzy giggling and Jill reading to him?? Adorable & Jill looks great.

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jb0495

jb0495

(edited)

http://www.tlc.com/tv-shows/19-kids-and-counting/videos/duggar-daughters-deliver/

Found this, Jill says she is serving as primary. I wonder when this episode was.

I think my friend who also watches the show but it's as crazy as me about details thought I'd gone insane because I swore I remembered Jill talking about specifics lol. I still haven't found the other episode I'm thinking of but at least I proved to my friend I'm not THAT crazy LOL!

Edited by jb0495
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Chai

Chai

Dear Derick and Jill, 1. Stop living off of other people's money to fund your mission to convert people to your way of life. 2. Most of the people you will try to convert are smarter than you are or will ever be and have REAL need of money and food, unlike you. 3. If you aren't telling your donors how THEIR money is being spent you are not being accountable to them and you are expecting to be paid for just being Christians which is VERY un-Christian like. 4. The Catholics and others you feel the need to 'correct' have the right and ABILITY to determine what is spiritually correct for them and do not need your input or guidance and it is so arrogant of you to think that you have a corner on all things religiously and spiritually correct. 5. You are not and will never be the only people to ever get married and have children so stop acting like the world owes you for this. 6. I hope you will be open minded enough to RESPECT other peoples spirituality and humble enough to recognize that you do not have all of the answers even though you actually think that you do. 7. You are accepting donations under the guise of 'helping' people when you are truly just feeding your own egos by trying to convert others into your way of thinking. 8. If you truly believe the things you claim you would sacrifice your OWN money to go on your mission, I don't remember Jesus (the one you claim to follow) expecting money from others while enjoying the worldly goods you two have become accustomed to. 9. You both are young and think you know the answers to the world when you haven't even begun to scratch the surface with the least bit of introspection and questioning. 10. You both remind me of mindless programmed robots.

Best post ever! Well said.

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ChocolateAddict

ChocolateAddict

I could see Jill attending the required number of births but the question is if she was actually the primary midwife or the assistant.  One of the few episodes that I watched involved Jill and Jana attending a birth - IIRC they basically just gave some pointless advice about breathing and handed towels.  One of my friends is currently at university studying to be a midwife - she will have to do a three year nursing degree followed by a one year midwifery degree.  Comparatively, Jill has some excellent experience in ignoring the warning signs of her own pregnancy and hanging around while other people (Mechelle/Anna/Random Others) give birth on TV.  Which one would someone with a brain chose for their delivery?

Even if Jill was fully qualified with some sort of degree, I wouldn't trust her with something as important as childbirth.  She has spent her entire life being submissive to other people - first Boob and now Derrick.  Apart from lecturing some Howlers, she doesn't have any experience leading or taking control, particularly around other adults.  Being sweet won't be a useful attribute when important decisions have to be made! I could see her as being an assistant with a fully qualified primary midwife (*cough* not Venessa *cough*) in that she could stand around and hold the baby at the end without having to actually take charge.  

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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

So it is an association with no oversight?

 

I also wonder if they use the words Primary & Assistant interchangeably during training, to make sure students get the hours.

 

And... if the test is an at home online test, a tester would have their books from which to access the answers from.

 

Well, the association has to do enough to satisfy the states that actually do allow these folks to practice legally. They want to keep up their standards to the points that no states will withdraw their approval of CPMs practicing and, they hope, that more states will open the doors to them ..... So they do have motivation to keep up some standards, such as they are. That's not a terribly unusual form of oversight for trade and professional people's associations to have, really.

 

I'm sure the group itself doesn't use "primary" and "assistant" interchangeably. Doing something like that would be cutting their own throats.  If you want to practice in this field -- which already has tons of doubters -- it wouldn't be in your interest to create a system that allowed utterly unprepared people to practice. ... I do wonder whether individual "mentors" do that, though. That's what I wonder about the Jill situation. I'm sure it's not what NARM's leadership intends, since they'd clearly like to enhance their reputation, not drive it terminally into the ground. But I can see Venessa or somebody blurring lines and fudging stuff to "help" mentees get their certification. It wouldn't surprise me at all if an individual did that. ... It's really just the sheer numbers of things Jill was supposed to have done that make me scratch my head, considering how little practical stuff she seems to have done in the last three years or so. But I suppose that may be because when I think of getting this experience, I think of somebody trying to get the experience in a fairly compressed time period, close to when they sought certification, so that you'd be doing the stuff intensely. That, to me, would make the experience more valuable. But I suppose that what really may have happened is that Jill had this list of experiences over a three-year=plus period or so that actually pretty much ended three years ago. ....

I could see Jill attending the required number of births but the question is if she was actually the primary midwife or the assistant.

 

 

That's my question. Because obviously the group association wants to make sure that people have some experience being the primary midwife -- because obviously you desperately need some of that if they're going to certify you as someone who can go out and ... be a primary midwife. .... Like you, I don't remember much ever being said about Jill taking that role in births. And I would think that as you shifted from the "assistant with supervision" to the "primary with supervision" that would be a big deal, and you'd mention it -- or show it on tv or whatever. It's just very odd to me that they'd keep that quiet. I don't see why anyone would.

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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

It's an at home test too?  Oh jeez.

Well, this is what they say about the test. And it suggests that it's a somewhat more formal process. Although it's hard to tell. .... The test is required by all the states that license CPMs, apparently. And I'm not sure that 28 states would all accept as a qualification a test you can take entirely with a crib sheet. .... But who knows, I suppose.

 

tep 2 - Certification

When the applicant has completed one of the approved educational routes of entry, the applicant may apply

to become a Certified Professional Midwife (CPM), and take the NARM

Written Examination.

The Written Examination consists of 300 multiple-choice questions

.

This examination is computer-based

and administered in two, 3.5-hour sessions. The NARM Written Examination is the final step in the CPM

certification process. This examination is also administered as the final part of national legal recognition

processes. The NARM Written Examination is only given in the United States.

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SomePity1066

SomePity1066

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Oh, my cheese and biscuits ! Wow is THIS ever the debate to end all debates ! May I offer my thoughts here please ? I think any of Jill's potential patients deserve some advocacy here...

 

It's been well-documented that the CPM is NOT like a CNM. Not by a mile. Not even close. The training, requirements, and testing are NOT the same, and, though it certainly DOES NOT mean that all CPMs are incompetent or dangerous, it does mean that the CNMs are held to a much, much higher standard - they are regulated, licensed, monitored, and, in some states, the only midwives allowed by law to assist in labor and delivery. The overwhelming majority of midwives, whether CPMs or CMNs, recommend assisting births at a hospital should something go awry. FACT.

 

That being said, I've gone on record here that I don't believe for one minute that Jill has qualified for ANYTHING. Her record speaks for itself. 

 

The National Association of Certified Professional Midwives is an organization of ad-hoc, ersatz, non-professional, non-accredited people who created THEMSELVES, then proceeded to award themselves the very certificates that they had created. FACT. 

 

Jill received one of these certifications. Based on... perhaps not nothing, but certainly not enough. I'm reminded of how "proficient" the Duggars are at homeschooling, selling cars, laying carpet, building houses, and owning pets. I've been taking public transportation for 40 years, but I'm not driving a bus here. I thing the analogy applies. 

 

Dr. Amy may not have a license to practice now, but that was VOLUNTARY, and does not erase the fact that she's BU and Harvard educated, was a professor of medicine at Harvard, and now devotes her time to raising her children - all of whom are well-provided for because she's still able to support them - and writing a blog to help women in need and separating fact from fiction. She only calls it like she sees it, and nothing can change or corrupt that. Because... Harvard. Because...science. Because... FACT.

 

I feel like this discussion is nearing the end of being reigned in/banned/warned by the mods, as it's getting a bit testy here - sorry to be the spoil-sport, but I fear we've reached the end of the road. I'm working now on two political campaigns, and have such enthusiasm for it (!), but I know that there's just some people you're never going to convert. If you'd like to discuss further please PM me - I'm here all week ! Try the veal... !

 

;)

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Wellfleet

Wellfleet

Oh, my cheese and biscuits ! Wow is THIS ever the debate to end all debates ! May I offer my thoughts here please ? I think any of Jill's potential patients deserve some advocacy here...

 

It's been well-documented that the CPM is NOT like a CNM. Not by a mile. Not even close. The training, requirements, and testing are NOT the same, and, though it certainly DOES NOT mean that all CPMs are incompetent or dangerous, it does mean that the CNMs are held to a much, much higher standard - they are regulated, licensed, monitored, and, in some states, the only midwives allowed by law to assist in labor and delivery. The overwhelming majority of midwives, whether CPMs or CMNs, recommend assisting births at a hospital should something go awry. FACT.

 

That being said, I've gone on record here that I don't believe for one minute that Jill has qualified for ANYTHING. Her record speaks for itself. 

 

The National Association of Certified Professional Midwives is an organization of ad-hoc, ersatz, non-professional, non-accredited people who created THEMSELVES, then proceeded to award themselves the very certificates that they had created. FACT. 

 

Jill received one of these certifications. Based on... perhaps not nothing, but certainly not enough. I'm reminded of how "proficient" the Duggars are at homeschooling, selling cars, laying carpet, building houses, and owning pets. I've been taking public transportation for 40 years, but I'm not driving a bus here. I thing the analogy applies. 

 

Dr. Amy may not have a license to practice now, but that was VOLUNTARY, and does not erase the fact that she's BU and Harvard educated, was a professor of medicine at Harvard, and now devotes her time to raising her children - all of whom are well-provided for because she's still able to support them - and writing a blog to help women in need and separating fact from fiction. She only calls it like she sees it, and nothing can change or corrupt that. Because... Harvard. Because...science. Because... FACT.

 

I feel like this discussion is nearing the end of being reigned in/banned/warned by the mods, as it's getting a bit testy here - sorry to be the spoil-sport, but I fear we've reached the end of the road. I'm working now on two political campaigns, and have such enthusiasm for it (!), but I know that there's just some people you're never going to convert. If you'd like to discuss further please PM me - I'm here all week ! Try the veal... !

 

;)

 

Very well-said, Some. Very!

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cmr2014

cmr2014

Personally, I don't think that Jill will be practicing -- except possibly on family members. 

 

If they are going to Central America, I would assume that each country would have its own standards and would not accept some certificate from Arkansas in lieu of those qualifications. I would assume that Jill could take some sort of apprentice role while she works to complete those reqirements -- which is probably what she is qualified to do.

 

I really think that this is more about Jill and Derick and their relationship. The Jill that Derick met and "courted" was a young woman working on her midwifery certification so that she could become a missionary. He is now married to a woman who immediately dropped any pretense of becoming a midwfie the minute she got pregnant and is clearly far more interested in being on reality TV than being a missionary.

 

IMO, Derick is trying to steer this ship back toward its original course, and has "encouraged" Jill to finish something she had told him was very important to her.

 

Of course, I could be completely wrong. SOS is hardly a reputable missionary organization, and they have already shown that they are willing to have their activites filmed. Finishing her midwifery certificate could just be another photo op for the family.

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Julia

Julia

(edited)

Duggars can't go to college, because that would mean a strong, healthy mind is important, and I'm not convinced Jim Bob had one before he spent thirty years with Michelle as his BFF. I kind of wonder about him if he didn't insist on christian school because in public school you don't get credit for being the most pious thing that ever did pious in his pious piety and he was too dumb or lazy to excel at anything else.

Of course, he could be an evil genius who plays dumb to fit in because it's easier to scam stupid people - actually, I'm fairly sure given what I've read about his political career he believes that to be true - but Occam's razor suggests that Jim Bob felt the urge to create 20 people weaker and less accomplished than he is for a reason.

 

eta: Not, I think I need to point out, a shot at parochial schools, which sometimes are the best schools around. I just find it really odd that Jim Bob is the one who ended up going to one after his sister went public.

Edited by Julia
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Guest

Guest

Women can't go to college. So silly.

 

I think this pretty much sums up JB's approach to his daughters' education. Poor Jill never stood a chance. 

 

gaston.png

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Fuzzysox

Fuzzysox

I know this doesn't belong here but it's a life lesson:

 

My mom grew up this way--not fundie-but her dad was her world. Than she married my father who I don't even think she knew well or loved. Once married she wasn't happy. After 5-6 years it started to go bad and my parents separated but never divorced.

 

My mom never had enough education nor did she have a job skill. She had to completely change her life because what she was raised to believe, get married and your husband takes care of you, didn't materialize. Now she is 76 and regrets everything she ever did. She was always afraid to learn new things, never learned how to drive, and still til this day remains dependent on me to take her everywhere.

 

I feel for the Duggar girls they have the exact same life my mom did. What if your happily ever after doesn't materialize? Where does that leave you but down and out without an EDUCATION!?

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Lemur

Lemur

Jill has also had the education, training and certification required by law to practice as a CPM. 

 

You do know that doctors (even if you don't agree with their policy agendas) and CPMs (even if you love their show) are not even remotely the same thing, right?  

 

Also, what years did she attend Crown College?  

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Satchels of gold

Satchels of gold

My husband is a physician and his waiting room is full of people who tried to pray away the sickness or used pseudo medical practitioners. That's all well and good, do what you think is best for you but do you have to wait until 3 am to realize it's time to see a doctor? Can't you figure that out at noon?

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lookeyloo

lookeyloo

My husband is a physician and his waiting room is full of people who tried to pray away the sickness or used pseudo medical practitioners. That's all well and good, do what you think is best for you but do you have to wait until 3 am to realize it's time to see a doctor? Can't you figure that out at noon?

 my late ex husband was a doctor too and i always wondered this too!

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duggarshow

duggarshow

You do know that doctors (even if you don't agree with their policy agendas) and CPMs (even if you love their show) are not even remotely the same thing, right?  

 

 

Yep, and they've each met the requirements for their chosen profession.

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Defrauder

Defrauder

Babies are precious and personally I'd rather have my baby in a hospital where everything is available for any possible unexpected emergency.  If the baby stops breathing for instance I'd rather already be in the hospital where they could handle it than have to rush to a hospital.  I suppose that some people who have a dozen or so kids on one income have trouble affording the hospital delivery so they have to settle for some CPM and hope for the best.

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MarysWetBar

MarysWetBar

(edited)

My husband is a physician and his waiting room is full of people who tried to pray away the sickness or used pseudo medical practitioners. That's all well and good, do what you think is best for you but do you have to wait until 3 am to realize it's time to see a doctor? Can't you figure that out at noon?

Look at you gf! Baggin a Dr!

*spoken in valley girl dialect*

Personally, having worked in health care for the last thirty years, I find the whole Jill is as qualified as a Harvard educated Dr or an RN...or even a certified HCA..really really offensive.

Edited by MarysWetBar
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graefin

graefin

I feel for the Duggar girls they have the exact same life my mom did. What if your happily ever after doesn't materialize? Where does that leave you but down and out without an EDUCATION!?

I doubt this is something they'll have to worry about since in their cult, being anything other than happy or content isn't an option--in marriage or in childhood or any other aspect of life.

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Defrauder

Defrauder

Oh, my cheese and biscuits ! Wow is THIS ever the debate to end all debates ! May I offer my thoughts here please ? I think any of Jill's potential patients deserve some advocacy here...

 

It's been well-documented that the CPM is NOT like a CNM. Not by a mile. Not even close. The training, requirements, and testing are NOT the same, and, though it certainly DOES NOT mean that all CPMs are incompetent or dangerous, it does mean that the CNMs are held to a much, much higher standard - they are regulated, licensed, monitored, and, in some states, the only midwives allowed by law to assist in labor and delivery. The overwhelming majority of midwives, whether CPMs or CMNs, recommend assisting births at a hospital should something go awry. FACT.

 

That being said, I've gone on record here that I don't believe for one minute that Jill has qualified for ANYTHING. Her record speaks for itself. 

 

The National Association of Certified Professional Midwives is an organization of ad-hoc, ersatz, non-professional, non-accredited people who created THEMSELVES, then proceeded to award themselves the very certificates that they had created. FACT. 

 

Jill received one of these certifications. Based on... perhaps not nothing, but certainly not enough. I'm reminded of how "proficient" the Duggars are at homeschooling, selling cars, laying carpet, building houses, and owning pets. I've been taking public transportation for 40 years, but I'm not driving a bus here. I thing the analogy applies. 

 

Dr. Amy may not have a license to practice now, but that was VOLUNTARY, and does not erase the fact that she's BU and Harvard educated, was a professor of medicine at Harvard, and now devotes her time to raising her children - all of whom are well-provided for because she's still able to support them - and writing a blog to help women in need and separating fact from fiction. She only calls it like she sees it, and nothing can change or corrupt that. Because... Harvard. Because...science. Because... FACT.

 

I feel like this discussion is nearing the end of being reigned in/banned/warned by the mods, as it's getting a bit testy here - sorry to be the spoil-sport, but I fear we've reached the end of the road. I'm working now on two political campaigns, and have such enthusiasm for it (!), but I know that there's just some people you're never going to convert. If you'd like to discuss further please PM me - I'm here all week ! Try the veal... !

 

;)

Thanks for all of the information SomePity.  This is a really great post and answered a lot of the questions I had.

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Guest

Guest

(edited)

I'd still like to know if Jill actually attended Crown College.  I thought it was Jana and Joe who were heading there.

 

I'm pretty sure Jill attended College Plus online, not Crown College in Tennessee. That was Joe who went to Crown College and poor Jana has never gotten to go anywhere but Journey to the Heart. 

Edited by Guest
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doodlebug

doodlebug

 

 

Today. 11:38 am

 

 

I don't know anything about CPM's do hospitals accept them and acknowledge their credentials to practice in a hospital?  Would my insurance company pay for one I wonder?  

CPM's specifically believe that most babies do not need to be born in hospitals and they do not practice in them.  Most do deliveries at home, some use free standing birth centers (ie facilities with no attachment, physicially or businesswise, to a hospital).  It is unlikely that any hospital would give them privileges to practice in them, partly because their training is not medically oriented and partly because most hospitals require malpractice insurance for a practitioner to work there and most, if not all, CPM's don't have and couldn't get insurance.  Your health insurance might cover CPM care if you live in a state where CPM's are legally licensed; it would vary from plan to plan and you'd have to check.

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Defrauder

Defrauder

Today. 11:38 am

 

 

CPM's specifically believe that most babies do not need to be born in hospitals and they do not practice in them.  Most do deliveries at home, some use free standing birth centers (ie facilities with no attachment, physicially or businesswise, to a hospital).  It is unlikely that any hospital would give them privileges to practice in them, partly because their training is not medically oriented and partly because most hospitals require malpractice insurance for a practitioner to work there and most, if not all, CPM's don't have and couldn't get insurance.  Your health insurance might cover CPM care if you live in a state where CPM's are legally licensed; it would vary from plan to plan and you'd have to check.

Thanks for the info doodlebug.  

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bigskygirl

bigskygirl

Folks, the veterinarian has notified the mods about the repetitive beating of the dead horse known as Lets Talk About Jill Being a Legit Certified Professional Midwife Until All of Us Are Blue in the Face and Anything Else  We Can Discuss in Relation To the Original Topic Discussion. The hard working horse doctor has ask for everyone to move along and give the poor suffering horse a rest. Thank you.

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Defrauder

Defrauder

That's Anna's famous toilet birth.

Oh, that poor woman.  Put me in a bed any day delivering a baby  over than on a toilet.  This is graphic but I suppose the toilet would be a quicker clean up because a lot happens when you're delivering and pushing. For the woman's sake however and I think also the baby's sake a bed delivery is more humane and safer.  I understand gravity being used to help but when it's at the end and about to happen well the toilet has to go.  Also beds can be adjusted to aid the gravity aspect.

Thank you to the mods for always being so  kind and creative when re-directing our discussions when necessary.

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redlaces

redlaces

Oh, that poor woman.  Put me in a bed any day delivering a baby  over than on a toilet.  This is graphic but I suppose the toilet would be a quicker clean up because a lot happens when you're delivering and pushing. For the woman's sake however and I think also the baby's sake a bed delivery is more humane and safer.  I understand gravity being used to help but when it's at the end and about to happen well the toilet has to go.  Also beds can be adjusted to aid the gravity aspect.

Thank you to the mods for always being so  kind and creative when re-directing our discussions when necessary.

 

Wouldn't that clog up the toilet? Would it be defrauding Bin to have him come and plunge out some after-birth?

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