Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[WhineandCheez]

Quote

We eat a lot of salads and broccoli.

Of all the many Duggar lies this is the biggest whopper of them all.  I don't believe this for one Millisecond.

[riverblue22]

52 minutes ago, WhineandCheez said:

Of all the many Duggar lies this is the biggest whopper of them all.  I don't believe this for one Millisecond.

Michele may be eating salads and skipping the canned food.  Starbucks has some terrific offerings!

[Missy Vixen]

2 hours ago, WhineandCheez said:

Of all the many Duggar lies this is the biggest whopper of them all.  I don't believe this for one Millisecond.

If you watched the former 19 Kids and Counting with any regularity, how many times did you see salad on any of the Duggar children's plates? 

I watched for about the last two seasons. Didn't see it. There MIGHT have been a few pieces of broccoli on a plate once. I did notice, however, kids who were grazing on whatever was available to eat, up to and including empty ice cream cones.

[birkenstock]

The only one I can remember eating salads is Jana, and maybe the other older girls, when they went out to eat. I remember they went to a pizza buffet and she loaded up on salad while all the boys ate pizza.  I think Michelle even made mention of the girls not wanting to gain weight.

I could see Jill eating more healthily now if that was what Derick was used to growing up. However, as much as they want to say they regularly ate fresh fruits and veggies, we saw their show and what they ate.    

[Scarlett45]

You know, I'm remembering something about Jill from many seasons ago, she was having her wisdom teeth removed and was freaking out about not being awake during the procedure. She was going ON and ON and ON and ON about how weird it was that you weren't awake. Now that we know about JoshGate Part 1 her feelings about something as routine as a teeth cleaning make sense. 

I think the "uncertainty" of her life with Derrick is weighing on her. Meaning she's been ripped from everything she has known and she has not adjusted well at all. I hope she can get some help. 

[laurakaye]

Do the Duggars have a garden, or have they ever had one?  If not, why?  With that many mouths to feed, and that many J'slaves to weed, water and harvest, why would they not choose this option to give these kids something to eat that doesn't come out of a box or can?

I didn't watch this show from the beginning, so I can't recall if I've ever seen any of the Duggars tending a garden.

Edited September 13, 2016 by laurakaye

[Absolom]

I'm afraid the Duggars and a garden is one of those subjects that has been hashed over a few dozen times.

[Aja]

10 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

Do the Duggars have a garden, or have they ever had one?  If not, why?  With that many mouths to feed, and that many J'slaves to weed, water and harvest, why would they not choose this option to give these kids something to eat that doesn't come out of a box or can?

I didn't watch this show from the beginning, so I can't recall if I've ever seen any of the Duggars tending a garden.

IIRC, the Duggars had a garden in like one episode and then we never heard about it again. I remember a couple of segments where they very pointedly showed children eating fruits or vegetables, complete with THs from Xanaxia going into careful detail about all of the fruits and vegetables they totally eat all the time even though we'd never seen it before. These segments always came about whenever a lot of noise was being made about their horrifyingly unhealthy diets.

[kokapetl]

I think there's a garden that we'll see this season (tv fodder being its sole reason for being planted, not for actual human fodder). 

Edited September 13, 2016 by Kokapetl

[Churchhoney]

58 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

Do the Duggars have a garden, or have they ever had one?  If not, why?  With that many mouths to feed, and that many J'slaves to weed, water and harvest, why would they not choose this option to give these kids something to eat that doesn't come out of a box or can?

I didn't watch this show from the beginning, so I can't recall if I've ever seen any of the Duggars tending a garden.

Michelle and Jim Bob have apparently sometimes had gardens (possibly producer-driven gardens?) and then apparently quickly killed them.

Same as they've done with their 19 children.

[GeeGolly]

4 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Love this.

I have to add something, though. (surprise! surprise!) I get a lot of credit around here because I was able to jump some way out of my box due to certain traits I have. But in fact it's not in any way to my credit that I jumped. Because I have those traits. I was born with them. They were in my genes.

The people in my family who were not able to jump simply did not have my advantages. They have every bit as much good will -- more, in some cases -- and positive intentions as I do, but they didn't have the rebel genes, the insanely critical thought genes and so on that I did. In addition, they didn't have the identical experiences that opened little doors for me.

The Duggar kids don't have my traits or my lucky experiences either.

I'm not so stuck in the box because of facets of who I am that I have never had any control over. I have those facets by sheer luck. Not to my credit that I'm a lucky Type 3 rabbit. Not at all. And my experience tells me absolutely that at least for the most part it's not the fault of my family members -- or Duggars -- that they're the very unlucky Type 1 rabbits.

I know we humans all think we're spending our days shaping our own destinies. But to me it seems pretty clear that we're capable of much less destiny-shaping than we imagine. But because it's nearly impossible for us to really see things from somebody else's perspective -- as Absolom notes -- that's very difficult for us to realize.

My job is facilitating change. Change is hard even when it's wanted, and even harder for someone who isn't so sure. But I have yet to come across one person who was unable to make any change at all. I have worked with folks who have completely changed the trajectory of their lives. And I have also worked with folks who changed enough to make their lives less miserable/more manageable.

I work with folks in all stages of rabbitness. Sometimes all it takes for change to happen is to open the lid, and for some having the lid open is traumatic in and of itself. Some need a hand to guide them in stepping out of the box that they have been stuck standing in, and some stay stuck forever. And sometimes the jumpers find comfort in returning to the box intermittently.

Change doesn't necessarily mean going from boxed to no box at all.

I would say the Duggar 19 have been boxed for much of their childhood, however I believe many are now peeking out, and the example of the one who jumped - Josh - has made the others believe in the truth of the danger of jumping.

I think the difference with Jill and her siblings is their unwillingness to even acknowledge that their rabbit-box isn't the best/only box. I think many of us would have more empathy and acceptance for most of the Duggars if they showed any empathy or acceptance toward others. When one leads with contempt and pity it is harder to cut them some slack.

[Churchhoney]

52 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

My job is facilitating change. Change is hard even when it's wanted, and even harder for someone who isn't so sure. But I have yet to come across one person who was unable to make any change at all. I have worked with folks who have completely changed the trajectory of their lives. And I have also worked with folks who changed enough to make their lives less miserable/more manageable.

I work with folks in all stages of rabbitness. Sometimes all it takes for change to happen is to open the lid, and for some having the lid open is traumatic in and of itself. Some need a hand to guide them in stepping out of the box that they have been stuck standing in, and some stay stuck forever. And sometimes the jumpers find comfort in returning to the box intermittently.

Change doesn't necessarily mean going from boxed to no box at all.

I would say the Duggar 19 have been boxed for much of their childhood, however I believe many are now peeking out, and the example of the one who jumped - Josh - has made the others believe in the truth of the danger of jumping.

I think the difference with Jill and her siblings is their unwillingness to even acknowledge that their rabbit-box isn't the best/only box. I think many of us would have more empathy and acceptance for most of the Duggars if they showed any empathy or acceptance toward others. When one leads with contempt and pity it is harder to cut them some slack.

Well, I was never claiming that there are  many people for whom no change is possible.  I was talking about the ease with which many seem to think that deep-rooted, massive parts of somebody's behavior patterns and personalities can just be bypassed with a wave of the hand.

Like having been told from day one, over and over and over and over, that the world does not, must not revolve around babies or children. It seems to be commonly believed that someone who's always been told that can somehow just spontaneously remove it from her mind and just "be different" from the way she's always been. Jinger should just snap out of her lovesickness. Jill should just never have pop out of her mouth again something that's been completely engraved on her brain from birth. And because Jill does let it pop out of her mouth, she's a jerk, way lower than the rest of us, and she must be condemned. Because the rest of us would absolutely make this huge change if we were crappy like she is.

And, yeah, I agree that we'd all like them better if they were empathetic and accepting. But what I want to know is, where exactly would this empathy come from?

Being empathetic and accepting isn't some itty bitty change. It's a huge change. And perhaps, by nature, they're on the low end of empathy? What then? And how do they just magically overcome the fact that throughout their lives, and today, they're living totally surrounded by a milieu that preaches over and over and over and over and over that judging is what the world and God require, not empathizing?

This sounds again like a "snap your fingers and change" idea, and I've heard it plenty of times. But by exactly what process would this actually occur? Have you witnessed changes of similar magnitude occurring in people with equivalently insane backgrounds and, perhaps, less than promising natures to begin with -- perhaps low empathy, certainly low curiosity and intelligence, and so on? How long does it take? What circumstances must be in place for it to happen? What kinds of natures must people have for it to happen -- is it really something that just anybody can do? Do we have a good test of that, or have the truly hopeless just never really shown up at the therapists' office? If five or six Duggars appeared in some master change facilitators' office, how exactly would the process of changing them start?

It just all reminds me of the Mary Tyler Moore episode where Ted is freaking out about his upcoming marriage to Georgeann. He asks Lou what he needs to do to have a shot at making the relationship works. And Lou answers: "You know how you always are? Don't be that way." That's funny to me when it's about a fictional character. But not funny a bit when we're talking about real people. Just depressing, in that case. 

[GeeGolly]

No magic, no snap of the fingers - change is hard. It takes time, determination and support. A good therapist always starts where their client is at.

[JoanArc]

Quote

If five or six Duggars appeared in some master change facilitators' office, how exactly would the process of changing them start?

"Here's some people that aren't your parents. Talk to them. Hang around them. Maybe talk to you parents a lot less. Get a job."

[BitterApple]

If anything I think the events of the last two years will only serve to make the Duggar kiddults more clingy and insular. Jim Bob has drilled it into their heads that when they venture into the heathen world, Bad Things happen, and it's proven true. Josh took his FRC gig and was outed as a cheater and child molestor. Jill ventured off the reservation and ended up scared to the point of not being able to leave her razor wired compound. Si began a courtship with a pants wearing go-getter and it imploded.

I'm sure KJB used these failures as the perfect opprtunity to say "See! I told you so!" and reinforce why Daddy's rules must always be obeyed. At this point I can't see the older half of the kids changing, and they may not even want to.

Edited September 13, 2016 by BitterApple

[Absolom]

I expect the people like the Duggars never make it to the therapist's door. 

2 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

At this point I can't see the older half of the kids changing, and they may not even want to.

This.  There has to be some inkling that there is a need for help or change.

[Churchhoney]

18 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

No magic, no snap of the fingers - change is hard. It takes time, determination and support. A good therapist always starts where their client is at.

So you can't start unless somebody starts the process from within themselves, right? And I guess I think that this "realizing that you want it yourself" is something that many if not most of the most messed-up people are very unlikely ever to do! (and there may be a lot of Duggars in that "most messed-up" category, I'm thinking.... ;  )  )

[Temperance]

Fruits and vegetables and more natural foods are said to promote fertility.  If Jill is worried she isn't pregnant, she may have started eating healthier. 

[GeeGolly]

41 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

So you can't start unless somebody starts the process from within themselves, right? And I guess I think that this "realizing that you want it yourself" is something that many if not most of the most messed-up people are very unlikely ever to do! (and there may be a lot of Duggars in that "most messed-up" category, I'm thinking.... ;  )  )

So true! For most folks it takes some kind of negative event. What is kind of remarkable about change is it is often far reaching as well as eye opening.

[Malvina]

[Lady Edith]

What?!?  Dining with the rest of the family isn't required to maintain residency on the compound?  Command dinner performances for Jim Bob not mandated?  A couple having dinner together without a sibling in attendance?!?!  I'm shocked. 

[BitterApple]

Really, Jill? The veggie steamer on the table is just a tad too on the nose. F.U. Interwebz moments are supposed to be cleverly subtle.

[riverblue22]

I do think the Dillards eat pretty healthy food.  Derick's influence of course.

[sometimesy]

Where is 'home'? How are the properties divided among the blessedly marrieds? Jill is just visiting, so does she get an actual residence?

[birkenstock]

I'm surprised they didn't have a birthday dinner for Michelle tonight. Maybe it was a JB/Michelle date night or the whole family is going to get together on a different day.  

Fingers crossed Jill and Derick keep up their own family routines. 

[DoctorWhovian]

Do I want to know what spaghetti pie is? D:

[Vaysh]

LOOK AT US WE ARE EATING VEGETABLES. #BROCCOLI

I've never felt the need to tag my greens though. But snark aside, @riverblue22 is probably right in that Jill is eating way healthier now with Derrick than she ever did as a child so maybe it's the novelty of it that makes it tagworthy.

[JoanArc]

6 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Really, Jill? The veggie steamer on the table is just a tad too on the nose. F.U. Interwebz moments are supposed to be cleverly subtle.

Exactly. No gummy smile or forehead wrinkles either. Jill's as concerned about her image as Jessa is.

[Bitter Betty]

Ha ha to listening to Dave Ramsey... Dave's plan usually assumes you have an income coming in. 

[tabloidlover]

They can't sit through a meal without listening to something religious?  How about just having dinner and conversation amongst the two of you?  Is that not a thing?

[Arwen Evenstar]

9 minutes ago, tabloidlover said:

They can't sit through a meal without listening to something religious?  How about just having dinner and conversation amongst the two of you?  Is that not a thing?

I thought Dave Ramsey is a financial planner...and isn't he a non Fundy? Are they expanding their horizons and trying to understand real world finance rather than Gothard ways? Likely this is for Jill's benefit...

[tabloidlover]

Thanks for the clarification!  I'm not familiar with Dave.  Still find it odd that they can't just sit down together for a meal without something else in the background.

[Rabbittron]

20 minutes ago, tabloidlover said:

They can't sit through a meal without listening to something religious?  How about just having dinner and conversation amongst the two of you?  Is that not a thing?

What would they talk about?  They are together 24/7.

[WhineandCheez]

Quote

Exactly. No gummy smile or forehead wrinkles either.

WRONG!!  First thing I thought was "there she goes again with the raised eyebrows causing her forehead wrinkles."  Botox would take care of that Jill.  No ability to raise your forehead even if you wanted to!!

Look Ma, Green trees!!

Dave Ramsey is religion-based, but not heavy handed Christian.  His workshops in given in Christian churches all over the country on a low cost basis.  I took one, they are based basically about not using credit and saving. Yes, I had to pay $99 to be told that! Your husband or wife attends for free.  I was the only single woman there, but I swear I defrauded no one during the 8 weeks.

[tabloidlover]

In order to follow his plan, one would need to have an income I assume?  Like a job?  Pretty sure missioncationing doesn't count.

[Minivanessa]

11 minutes ago, WhineandCheez said:

Dave Ramsey is religion-based, but not heavy handed Christian.  His workshops in given in Christian churches all over the country on a low cost basis.  I took one, they are based basically about not using credit and saving. Yes, I had to pay $99 to be told that! Your husband or wife attends for free.  I was the only single woman there, but I swear I defrauded no one during the 8 weeks.

No worries. I didn't take a Ramsey course, but read his book a long time ago. IMO there's no shame in needing help in order to swim against the very strong tide in our contemporary culture of consumerism, thoughtless debt, and lack of information about handling personal finances.

I think it's a good sign that the Dillards are listening to Ramsey, because if nothing else it should boost Jill's knowledge about money and personal finance by about 1000%. I'm sure she got to age 22, and married, without ever having to deal with all the real life budgeting/spending decisions that most of us had made by that age. Like, paying rent and buying food and owning/operating a car, and insurance, and medical care, and clothing. 

I entertain a small hope that Derick, having realized the stunning limitations of his wife's life knowledge, is trying to help educate her. And more power to him if he is. IMO Dave Ramsey would be within Jill's comfort zone because he's Christian. BTW IIRC he encourages people to think long-term, kill their stupid debt, and be willing to live frugally for awhile as necessary to build up their financial security for the future. It's not JB's mindless "buy used and save the difference" (while spending a quarter million bucks on a politically suicidal hopeless primary campaign), if you really pay attention to what Ramsey says. Sure, it's common sense, but in our world common sense is all too often lost in the noise of our consumerist culture.

[Tabbygirl521]

9 hours ago, DoctorWhovian said:

Do I want to know what spaghetti pie is? D:

It's good!* The pasta is used to form the crust, then you can fill it with meat and cheese and stuff. 

* "good" as in, "I know I shouldn't be eating this but pass me another hunk."

[Lemur]

15 minutes ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

It's good!* The pasta is used to form the crust, then you can fill it with meat and cheese and stuff. 

* "good" as in, "I know I shouldn't be eating this but pass me another hunk."

Am I the only one who is dying to see Jeremy Vuolo's reaction to this meal?

[Missy Vixen]

22 hours ago, birkenstock said:

The only one I can remember eating salads is Jana, and maybe the other older girls, when they went out to eat. I remember they went to a pizza buffet and she loaded up on salad while all the boys ate pizza.  I think Michelle even made mention of the girls not wanting to gain weight.

I could see Jill eating more healthily now if that was what Derick was used to growing up. However, as much as they want to say they regularly ate fresh fruits and veggies, we saw their show and what they ate.    

 

J-Chelle took Jana to Weight Watchers as a teen, IIRC.

I'm guessing Triple D has had influence over what's being eaten in that household after we saw him introducing Jilly Muffin to exotic fare like feta cheese in previous episodes.

[Missy Vixen]

5 hours ago, tabloidlover said:

Thanks for the clarification!  I'm not familiar with Dave.  Still find it odd that they can't just sit down together for a meal without something else in the background.

Imagine the list of topics that are not part of the convo:

Current events

What's on TV

Sports

A book one of them may have read

Friends (since they don't appear to have any)

Movies

Plays, concerts, or other leisure activities

Hobbies

In-depth discussion about their hopes and dreams for the future

How they both truly feel about the events of the past year in their lives and their families

Did I forget anything?

[Aja]

I despise Dave Ramsey because, when I was in Nashville in rather dire living circumstances, I had an interview to be a copywriter for his company. During the initial phone interview, the interviewer said to me (OUT OF NOWHERE) "We have an office worship service every Wednesday morning. Is that something you would attend?" Having just spent 20 years in countries where you are absolutely NOT asked those sorts of questions in an employment interview setting (for both legal as well as common decency reasons), I was totally shocked and stammered out some answer about how great I think it is that employees gather together like that regularly. Basically the interview was over at that point. Lovely. Based on the company research I did, his financial advice isn't anything revolutionary, but he sticks God and Jesus in there a lot because he's a businessman in the deep South. In other words, right in the Duggar wheelhouse. 

[Natalie68]

23 hours ago, Absolom said:

I'm afraid the Duggars and a garden is one of those subjects that has been hashed over a few dozen times.

The only worthy garden in the Duggar world is Michelle's womb.  

[birkenstock]

21 minutes ago, Missy Vixen said:

J-Chelle took Jana to Weight Watchers as a teen, IIRC.

I'm guessing Triple D has had influence over what's being eaten in that household after we saw him introducing Jilly Muffin to exotic fare like feta cheese in previous episodes.

Yup, they did a whole segment on Jana and WW. I wonder if it was Michelle's own issues, because Jana was the first girl that Jana was enrolled, or even Michelle saw Jana was struggling and wanted her to be healthy.  That actually took monetary investment and none of the other girls had to go. It may have been that Jana was then qualified (by their standards) to be the family dietitian or Michelle was throwing shade at Jana.  

  I want Jill and Derick to stay in Arkansas for the people of Danger America.  Bring in missionaries who respect the people living there and who don't look down on those they're supposed to be serving.  The way they talk about Guatemala and the locals irritate me beyond belief.  They need to develop some empathy to connect to them.  I think that Jill's heart was in the right place when they arrived, but her inability to effectively communicate with people makes her unqualified right now.  There was another woman on last night's episode who was doing all of the counseling to the local women while Jill looked on.  Resources could be used for that woman to enhance the lives of local villagers.  The show should have been more straight forward and just say that Jill and Derick's primary purpose for being in DA was to be the short-term missionaries' tour guides. 

[Lemur]

6 minutes ago, birkenstock said:

I want Jill and Derick to stay in Arkansas for the people of Danger America.  Bring in missionaries who respect the people living there and who don't look down on those they're supposed to be serving.  The way they talk about Guatemala and the locals irritate me beyond belief.  They need to develop some empathy to connect to them.  I think that Jill's heart was in the right place when they arrived, but her inability to effectively communicate with people makes her unqualified right now.  There was another woman on last night's episode who was doing all of the counseling to the local women while Jill looked on.  Resources could be used for that woman to enhance the lives of local villagers.  The show should have been more straight forward and just say that Jill and Derick's primary purpose for being in DA was to be the short-term missionaries' tour guides. 

The inability to effectively communicate ... and the bad case of noblesse oblige with which these two fools are afflicted. 

[Joe Jitsu913]

16 hours ago, Malvina said:

Eww... They look like brother and sister. Jill has aged in dog years. 

[Churchhoney]

7 hours ago, tabloidlover said:

They can't sit through a meal without listening to something religious?  How about just having dinner and conversation amongst the two of you?  Is that not a thing?

Without something certifiably religious blasting in your ears, the talk might stray onto something unallowable. Sort of like what might happen if you did the grocery shopping by yourself.

[Defrauder]

If those are green apples on the table there are plenty for Jill to share with Izzy.  I wonder what he had for dinner.

[Defrauder]

Jill's weird worry about Izzy thinking the world revolves around him shows she's still mothering like a sibling and not like a mother.  She was a sister mom to buddies starting at a young age and it went on throughout her childhood.  There are reasons why 10 year old's can not have children - it's because they don't have the mental and emotional intelligence and empathy that it takes to parent a child.  Michelle and JB passing their parenting responsibilities off to children taught the children - that's how you parent - like children.  How many siblings would raise their brothers and sisters with the same level of love and care and concern that a parent would?  Siblings that are still in their own childhoods.  So am I surprised that Jill still doesn't want to share her apple and wants to show Izzy the world doesn't revolve around him?  No.  Because that's how she was 'trained' to parent, that's how she started out, that's what was forced on her from her childhood.  She's not going to change now just because she's a 'real' mother.  

Edited September 14, 2016 by Defrauder

[JoanArc]

Quote

WRONG!!  First thing I thought was "there she goes again with the raised eyebrows causing her forehead wrinkles."  Botox would take care of that Jill.  No ability to raise your forehead even if you wanted to!!

You're right, I posted that from my tiny phone. I couldn't see the wrinkles. It does look like she was trying and failing to suppress her standard grimace.

[Chicklet]

Not exactly "nobless oblige" more like "job-less and can't oblige". 

Jill IS her mother and that is very sad. She's floundering out in the real world and is probably pregnant with some sort of cognitive disability (can't learn spanish even while immersed), fearing Zika, a husband who has no clue who or what she is because she doesn't even know.... the list goes on and she depresses me if I think about her too much.