Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Minivanessa]

I read the opinion issued today by the U S Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit in the appeal filed by J’inmate (aka Appellant). Here’s a quick drive-by, in case anybody wants to know. Just scroll on past if you don’t.

Appellant raised three issues on appeal. The Eighth Circuit found against him on all three. They were:

FIRST ISSUE: Appellant claimed that the trial court deprived him of his right to present a complete defense when it ruled that although he could call a prior employee – Caleb Williams - as a witness, he couldn’t ask Caleb about, or introduce evidence of, Caleb’s prior sex-offense conviction. The defense didn't call the witness at all, apparently because of that ruling. The appeals court ruled that the district court had “unquestionably constitutional” discretion to prohibit inquiry into the witness’ sex-offense conviction on the grounds that such evidence would present the danger of confusing the issues.

The legal point here is that generally, a witness may be impeached by introduction of a prior felony conviction. However, that prior conviction is only for the purpose of casting doubt on the witness’s credibility. IOW, “you can consider the fact that she was convicted of felony theft when deciding if you believe she testified truthfully here.” However, under circumstances of this case, the danger of introducing Caleb’s prior conviction would be that the “jury might think he did it because he was a sex offender, even though the conviction was only potentially admissible as impeachment evidence.”

SECOND ISSUE: Appellant argued that his incriminating statements during the search at the car dealership should have been suppressed. The appellate court reviewed and analyzed this extensively in the opinion, and ruled that under the circumstances, not only was Appellant not in custody, a reasonable person would not have thought he was in custody, and therefore his right to counsel had not attached, and the statements were admissible.

Fun factoid: Although he wasn’t arrested or otherwise restrained by the federal agents on the scene, they did read him his Miranda rights, I suppose in an abundance of caution. The court said “But when Duggar signed a form acknowledging his rights, he had the agents ‘scratch . . . out’ the portion saying that he was being ‘taken into custody.’ Modifying the form made it clear he was free to leave.” The extra fun part is that the court opinion then includes the image of the final para of the form, with the scratchouts and J’inmate’s signature. Heh. The big issue about admissibility of statements like this, is whether the suspect was in custody – or reasonably thought they were. I’m still chuckling about J’inmate scratching out the custodial language - and then his lawyers having to pursue this loser issue of admissibility clear up to the Eighth Circuit. I’m sure he thought he was showing those agents how smart he was.

THIRD ISSUE: Appellant challenged the government’s analyst’s qualifications and methods, and the limitations placed on the defense expert witness, regarding the testimony about the metadata in Appellant’s iPhone. That information placed him firmly at the dealership at the time the CSAM was downloaded. The court found the trial court didn’t err in allowing the government’s analyst to testify, nor in limiting the defense expert’s testimony. BTW, the court noted “it would have been ‘pure conjecture’ for her [the defense expert witness] to suggest there were errors in metadata she never examined.”

FOOTNOTE: In case anyone wondered, the term “router” doesn’t appear in the opinion. I ran a search, just to be sure.

 

[ozziemom]

12 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

I read the opinion issued today by the U S Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit in the appeal filed by J’inmate (aka Appellant). Here’s a quick drive-by, in case anybody wants to know. Just scroll on past if you don’t.

Appellant raised three issues on appeal. The Eighth Circuit found against him on all three. They were:

FIRST ISSUE: Appellant claimed that the trial court deprived him of his right to present a complete defense when it ruled that although he could call a prior employee – Caleb Williams - as a witness, he couldn’t ask Caleb about, or introduce evidence of, Caleb’s prior sex-offense conviction. The defense didn't call the witness at all, apparently because of that ruling. The appeals court ruled that the district court had “unquestionably constitutional” discretion to prohibit inquiry into the witness’ sex-offense conviction on the grounds that such evidence would present the danger of confusing the issues.

The legal point here is that generally, a witness may be impeached by introduction of a prior felony conviction. However, that prior conviction is only for the purpose of casting doubt on the witness’s credibility. IOW, “you can consider the fact that she was convicted of felony theft when deciding if you believe she testified truthfully here.” However, under circumstances of this case, the danger of introducing Caleb’s prior conviction would be that the “jury might think he did it because he was a sex offender, even though the conviction was only potentially admissible as impeachment evidence.”

SECOND ISSUE: Appellant argued that his incriminating statements during the search at the car dealership should have been suppressed. The appellate court reviewed and analyzed this extensively in the opinion, and ruled that under the circumstances, not only was Appellant not in custody, a reasonable person would not have thought he was in custody, and therefore his right to counsel had not attached, and the statements were admissible.

Fun factoid: Although he wasn’t arrested or otherwise restrained by the federal agents on the scene, they did read him his Miranda rights, I suppose in an abundance of caution. The court said “But when Duggar signed a form acknowledging his rights, he had the agents ‘scratch . . . out’ the portion saying that he was being ‘taken into custody.’ Modifying the form made it clear he was free to leave.” The extra fun part is that the court opinion then includes the image of the final para of the form, with the scratchouts and J’inmate’s signature. Heh. The big issue about admissibility of statements like this, is whether the suspect was in custody – or reasonably thought they were. I’m still chuckling about J’inmate scratching out the custodial language - and then his lawyers having to pursue this loser issue of admissibility clear up to the Eighth Circuit. I’m sure he thought he was showing those agents how smart he was.

THIRD ISSUE: Appellant challenged the government’s analyst’s qualifications and methods, and the limitations placed on the defense expert witness, regarding the testimony about the metadata in Appellant’s iPhone. That information placed him firmly at the dealership at the time the CSAM was downloaded. The court found the trial court didn’t err in allowing the government’s analyst to testify, nor in limiting the defense expert’s testimony. BTW, the court noted “it would have been ‘pure conjecture’ for her [the defense expert witness] to suggest there were errors in metadata she never examined.”

FOOTNOTE: In case anyone wondered, the term “router” doesn’t appear in the opinion. I ran a search, just to be sure.

 

Thank for summarizing all that. Hopefully this is the last ditch effort and J’appellent can enjoy the rest of his sentence. Now that we know he won’t be released anytime soon, will Anna’s situation change?

[peppergal]

Gotta love the phrasing of the Arkansas Times reporting on the ruling.  Opening sentence "Josh Duggar of “19 Kids and Counting” and child pornography scandal fame will not get a new trial." 

[Salacious Kitty]

2 minutes ago, peppergal said:

Gotta love the phrasing of the Arkansas Times reporting on the ruling.  Opening sentence "Josh Duggar of “19 Kids and Counting” and child pornography scandal fame will not get a new trial." 

It's a pity that CC McCandless moved to Vegas. His articles during this ordeal were snark GOLD. 

[CalicoKitty]

Josh has no idea how many people he has hurt.  His wife, children, future grandchildren, siblings, nieces and nephews will all be tied to this scandal for years and years.  The internet is forever, and Josh will be mentioned in any article, newscast or obituary tied to his family members for many, many years to come.

Great parenting, Michelle and Jim Bob.  Really great job.  You wanted "fame".  Well, you have it.

[Minivanessa]

1 hour ago, ozziemom said:

Thank for summarizing all that. Hopefully this is the last ditch effort and J’appellent can enjoy the rest of his sentence. Now that we know he won’t be released anytime soon, will Anna’s situation change?

You're welcome. And that's a good question. I wonder if Anna's attitude will change now that the conviction's been affirmed on appeal. For all practical purposes, today's opinion means this case is over. She's been angry and has had her nose in the air and she's been all in denial with "There's more to the story!" ever since the conviction. I'm sorry for her situation. I don't know if she'll ever accept the facts, or just stay in denial and angry. As to her living situation, that's a tough one. I don't see JB ever withdrawing support for her and her children, if only out of concern for his own reputation and standing in the fundie world. 

I can see Anna insisting it's not all over yet. And indeed, assuming there's money to pay the lawyers? There are some more steps J'inmate's appellate lawyers can take. Although the odds are against any of them succeeding.

Just for general information - I'm not a federal appellate lawyer, LOL -  they may file a petition for rehearing with the three-judge panel of the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals that decided the case or, with the entire Eighth Circuit Court en banc.  I don't believe those petitions are often granted. 

If that petition is denied, or if it's granted but on rehearing the conviction is still affirmed by the Eighth Circuit, the Appellant may file a petition for review (Petition for Certiorari) in the United States Supreme Court. However, the Supreme Court rarely grants such a petition. IOW there's no right of appeal past the Eighth Circuit, only a chance to file a petition with the Supremes that has a low low low chance of being accepted.

[ScorpioSoul]

Glad all the Perv's appeals were denied.

[MaryAnneSpier]

I hope and wonder if this can give a slight sense of closure to Anna and JB and Michelle. Josh will be away for a decade because his final appeal was a no-go, so it's time to sit down and come up with a ten-year plan for Anna and her kids. 

[libgirl2]

7 hours ago, MaryAnneSpier said:

I hope and wonder if this can give a slight sense of closure to Anna and JB and Michelle. Josh will be away for a decade because his final appeal was a no-go, so it's time to sit down and come up with a ten-year plan for Anna and her kids. 

They won't. 

[merylinkid]

Agreed @libgirl2 they won't.   Because 1) that involves planning ahead, which the Duggars do not do.   Plus Anna is never going to accept the reality that he did what he did.    This is all some trial sent by God.   Which also means God can perform a miracle and release FF any day.   Because he didn't do it, the evil router did.

[Minivanessa]

44 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

Agreed @libgirl2 they won't.   Because 1) that involves planning ahead, which the Duggars do not do.   Plus Anna is never going to accept the reality that he did what he did.    This is all some trial sent by God.   Which also means God can perform a miracle and release FF any day.   Because he didn't do it, the evil router did.

I wonder if there will be some tense discussions about the next steps for J'inmate's appellate lawyers to take. Because, money. I mentioned above that they can file a petition for rehearing at this point, although AFAIK the statistics are firmly tilted against that being granted.

It's up to J'inmate to decide if he wants his lawyers to proceed - assuming there's money to pay them. 

Knowing the family dynamics, I believe JB will be involved in some discussions about that, as will Anna. But for the lawyers, it's Ethics 101. Meaning that even if someone else is writing the checks to pay the lawyers, the lawyers' duty is to their client, in this case J'inmate. And to nobody else. 

[merylinkid]

Just saw it framed this way by Law & Crime Network:

Conservative appellate panel refuses to give ex-’19 Kids and Counting’ star #JoshDuggar another chance to blame conviction on sex offender

Makes me wonder if Josh thought he was being "clever" by hiring the guy figuring he could always blame the other guy if he, Josh, got caught.   That would sounds like the kind of stupid but thinks he's so smart thinking that the FF and quite frankly JB is known for.

[Zella]

19 hours ago, Jeeves said:

The court said “But when Duggar signed a form acknowledging his rights, he had the agents ‘scratch . . . out’ the portion saying that he was being ‘taken into custody.’ Modifying the form made it clear he was free to leave.”

That is hilarious! I don't ever remember hearing that in the original trial, but there was so much information I may have just overlooked it. 

[oliviabenson]

Anna is probably depressed: no more blessings and stuck living under JB thumb and relying on his charity.

What is she going to do once JB won’t pay her bills? 
 

 

All these people depend on JB to support them because JB stunted them/refused to educate them and send them out into the world. How sad. 

[dariafan]

5 hours ago, merylinkid said:

Agreed @libgirl2 they won't.   Because 1) that involves planning ahead, which the Duggars do not do.   Plus Anna is never going to accept the reality that he did what he did.    This is all some trial sent by God.   Which also means God can perform a miracle and release FF any day.   Because he didn't do it, the evil router did.

And she’s probably being blamed for him falling and then blaming herself and questioning what she did or didn’t do 

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, dariafan said:

And she’s probably being blamed for him falling and then blaming herself and questioning what she did or didn’t do 

Sure, it is all her fault 😔 

part of me feels bad but then I think that she has had some opportunity to get out or at least distance herself from him. She hasn't. She has had too much of the Kool-Aid and never will. I feel for the kids. 

[Salacious Kitty]

So we know when FF can have visitors again? Isn't that time approaching? 

[Zella]

1 minute ago, libgirl2 said:

Sure, it is all her fault 😔 

part of me feels bad but then I think that she has had some opportunity to get out or at least distance herself from him. She hasn't. She has had too much of the Kool-Aid and never will. I feel for the kids. 

I understand all the perfectly logical reasons people give for having some sympathy for Anna, but I really don't give a shit. She sat through that trial and heard all that evidence and still somehow concluded her husband was the victim and not those poor children who were victimized in the filth he downloaded. She can go fuck off as far as I'm concerned. 

[libgirl2]

1 minute ago, Zella said:

I understand all the perfectly logical reasons people give for having some sympathy for Anna, but I really don't give a shit. She sat through that trial and heard all that evidence and still somehow concluded her husband was the victim and not those poor children who were victimized in the filth he downloaded. She can go fuck off as far as I'm concerned. 

Yea, sure she is a victim of the way she was raised but FFS, you know there is more out there. This wasn't a case of him seeing a prostitute! I would be repulsed to be in the same room with him, let alone holding his hand as you are going in and out of court. 

[Zella]

4 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Yea, sure she is a victim of the way she was raised but FFS, you know there is more out there. This wasn't a case of him seeing a prostitute! I would be repulsed to be in the same room with him, let alone holding his hand as you are going in and out of court. 

Yes and what particularly horrifies me is I don't think she will see any of the restrictions when he's finally released as necessary. Josh is responsible for his own actions, but I don't think Anna can be counted on to try to protect society from him because again she's concluded he's the victim here. 

[libgirl2]

1 minute ago, Zella said:

Yes and what particularly horrifies me is I don't think she will see any of the restrictions when he's finally released as necessary. Josh is responsible for his own actions, but I don't think Anna can be counted on to try to protect society from him because again she's concluded he's the victim here. 

she most certainly won't have a problem with him being around his kids. 

[Zella]

6 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Yea, sure she is a victim of the way she was raised but FFS, you know there is more out there.

I forgot to comment on this part but yes. I know everyone comes through their childhood and upbringing with baggage that you need to unlearn, but at a certain point, you are an adult and you are responsible for picking up the pieces from that and doing better. Your upbringing is a reason you don't know, but it's not an excuse to remain that way. Whenever anyone acts like people are just doomed to be trapped in the bubble they were raised in, I always think of Angelica Huston's lines in Lonesome Dove. "But you're not stupid, are you? You can learn, can't you?" 

[Natalie68]

1 hour ago, oliviabenson said:

Anna is probably depressed: no more blessings and stuck living under JB thumb and relying on his charity.

What is she going to do once JB won’t pay her bills? 
 

 

All these people depend on JB to support them because JB stunted them/refused to educate them and send them out into the world. How sad. 

Get a (or several) minimum wage job like all women/men who find themselves in such a position.  I don't care that she wasn't 'prepared' to work like all normal people.  Or that she has 7 kids and is a single mom.  She is neither royalty nor important.  Don't care if it is hard.  Women do it every gd day with fewer resources.  She has lived a life of privilege and if she didn't make plans for a rainy day, she can live with family or whatever.  What would she expect an atheist single mom of 7 to do?

[GeeGolly]

I feel sorry for Anna because I think she believes he is innocent. If I thought she was okay with the FF viewing CSA I would have no fucks to give.

I worry about future victims when the FF is released. I hope his release restrictions, including the criminal justice system, will nab him sooner rather than later.

[Salacious Kitty]

2 minutes ago, Zella said:

I forgot to comment on this part but yes. I know everyone comes through their childhood and upbringing with baggage that you need to unlearn, but at a certain point, you are an adult and you are responsible for picking up the pieces from that and doing better. Your upbringing is a reason you don't know, but it's not an excuse to remain that way. Whenever anyone acts like people are just doomed to be trapped in the bubble they were raised in, I always think of Angelica Huston's lines in Lonesome Dove. "But you're not stupid, are you? You can learn, can't you?" 

Sure, she's capable of learning. She just chooses to willfully stay ignorant, in her little bubble of denial. 

[Zella]

Just now, Salacious Kitty said:

Sure, she's capable of learning. She just chooses to willfully stay ignorant, in her little bubble of denial. 

And that's why she can go fuck off in my book. LOL 

[AstridM]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

I understand all the perfectly logical reasons people give for having some sympathy for Anna, but I really don't give a shit. She sat through that trial and heard all that evidence and still somehow concluded her husband was the victim and not those poor children who were victimized in the filth he downloaded. She can go fuck off as far as I'm concerned. 

She in fact walked out during the most important part (imo), when the prosecution described exactly the kind of sickening videos he had downloaded. Utterly cowardly and she NEEDS to know the details in order to protect her own kids. But she never cared. 

1 hour ago, Natalie68 said:

Get a (or several) minimum wage job like all women/men who find themselves in such a position.  I don't care that she wasn't 'prepared' to work like all normal people.  Or that she has 7 kids and is a single mom.  She is neither royalty nor important.  Don't care if it is hard.  Women do it every gd day with fewer resources.  She has lived a life of privilege and if she didn't make plans for a rainy day, she can live with family or whatever.  What would she expect an atheist single mom of 7 to do?

Amen!

[ginger90]

1 hour ago, Salacious Kitty said:

So we know when FF can have visitors again? Isn't that time approaching? 

Was this ever confirmed? I honestly don’t know/remember if it was.

 

If it was, when was the disciplinary action actually given, for how long?

[satrunrose]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

I feel sorry for Anna because I think she believes he is innocent. If I thought she was okay with the FF viewing CSA I would have no fucks to give.

I felt sorry for Anna until scandal 1. She got chained to J'inmate when she was incredibly young and the people who were supposed to be guiding her chucked her under the bus (JB because I think he legit believed that a dutiful wifey would cure FF and Mr Keller... well amongst the daughters who stayed fundie, David Waller aka the Pecan Thief/possible groomer is probably the best of the bunch husband-wise and that is a looooow bar). I even get why Anna didn't kick J'Inmate firmly to the curb after the first two scandals sent him to Jesus Jail. She had four kids and was raised to be completely dependent on a headship (plus, I think she might have gotten a fair bit of milage in their circles for being the martyred wife).

What I don't feel sorry for is the choices she made post Ashly Madison. She could have had a conveniently timed migraine every month, she could have done what seems to be tacitly approved for fundie women who have deadbeat husbands (see Carlin Bates, Jill Rod and even Jill Duggar when Derick was trying to figure out what the hell he was doing with his life) and start a "home based business". Not that I would generally recommend selling plexus or similar, but something to start an escape fund would have been smart. Instead, she popped out another handful of m&ms and doubled down on the cracker crumbs. 

[GeeGolly]

20 minutes ago, satrunrose said:

I felt sorry for Anna until scandal 1. She got chained to J'inmate when she was incredibly young and the people who were supposed to be guiding her chucked her under the bus (JB because I think he legit believed that a dutiful wifey would cure FF and Mr Keller... well amongst the daughters who stayed fundie, David Waller aka the Pecan Thief/possible groomer is probably the best of the bunch husband-wise and that is a looooow bar). I even get why Anna didn't kick J'Inmate firmly to the curb after the first two scandals sent him to Jesus Jail. She had four kids and was raised to be completely dependent on a headship (plus, I think she might have gotten a fair bit of milage in their circles for being the martyred wife).

What I don't feel sorry for is the choices she made post Ashly Madison. She could have had a conveniently timed migraine every month, she could have done what seems to be tacitly approved for fundie women who have deadbeat husbands (see Carlin Bates, Jill Rod and even Jill Duggar when Derick was trying to figure out what the hell he was doing with his life) and start a "home based business". Not that I would generally recommend selling plexus or similar, but something to start an escape fund would have been smart. Instead, she popped out another handful of m&ms and doubled down on the cracker crumbs. 

Not defending Anna at all but... she wouldn't be the first woman, Fundy or not, to stay with a husband after he cheated. And IIRC, Anna did try to shill after AM, but haters reached out to whatever company she was shilling for, so much like the Vuolos - no success.

My empathy for her runs thin, but it is there. She owns nothing her husband has done and as far as we know the M&Ms have always been safe.

[Zella]

1 hour ago, AstridM said:

She in fact walked out during the most important part (imo), when the prosecution described exactly the kind of sickening videos he had downloaded. Utterly cowardly and she NEEDS to know the details in order to protect her own kids. But she never cared. 

She did, but she sat through enough of it that I don't think she has any excuse. I'm also pretty sure she was in the courtroom when some of it was shown, per the local reporter who attended each day.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Zella

[Salacious Kitty]

8 minutes ago, Zella said:

She did, but she sat through enough of it that I don't think she has any excuse. I'm also pretty sure she was in the courtroom when some of it was shown, per the local reporter who attended each day.

I believe the reporter said that Anna averted/covered her face when something was shown. But she left the court room for the worst of it. Just another way to keep her in denial; if she doesn't see it, it didn't really happen.

[libgirl2]

15 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Not defending Anna at all but... she wouldn't be the first woman, Fundy or not, to stay with a husband after he cheated. And IIRC, Anna did try to shill after AM, but haters reached out to whatever company she was shilling for, so much like the Vuolos - no success.

My empathy for her runs thin, but it is there. She owns nothing her husband has done and as far as we know the M&Ms have always been safe.

Good point, there are women (and men) of all different walks who stayed. That said, she could avert her eyes all she wants, she knows damn well what he was looking at. 

[Zella]

41 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

I believe the reporter said that Anna averted/covered her face when something was shown. But she left the court room for the worst of it. Just another way to keep her in denial; if she doesn't see it, it didn't really happen.

It was a day when they screwed up and showed it before they were supposed to. She was there, and the reporter said she just sat there stone-faced. He said pretty much everyone else was visibly distraught. 

Edited August 8, 2023 by Zella

[BetyBee]

I don't think Anna can think of a single friend in the world who would truly help her to begin a life that would lead to her supporting herself and her family. She has a crap education and isn't an intellectually curious person, imo. There are fakers like fAmy and the brother whom I don't think we've heard from since the first scandal, who claim to want to help her. It's quite likely that if she reached out for help from her pathetic parents, she'd be rebuffed. They think they raised her perfectly and that they have done nothing that wasn't God's will. There are people who would pretend to help, but end up selling a story to the Daily Mail or some other rag. She's close to Priscilla, who would likely tell her to pray and to stand by her man 🤮

There are people like social workers or DV shelters who actually would help her, but Anna isn't smart enough to consider secular help. She was doomed the minute she was born to her idiot parents and she's destined to grow to old age under JBoob and Mechelle's watchful eyes and bs beliefs.

I fault her most for not doing better for her own children.  I don't think Anna has any idea of how many people would respect her for seeing the hopelessness of the way she's leading her life now and taking action to change. She's not capable of taking steps to lead her life as a strong, adult woman. I don't ever think she will be capable. Nothing in her upbringing prepared her for anything but the crap life she clings to. 

 

[Kiss my mutt]

She should be forced to watch this but like others said, if she doesn’t then she has plausible deniability and doesn’t have to face the truth. It makes me wonder if FF sexually abused his children if she’s be one of those women that look the other way.

 

[GeeGolly]

I don't think Anna should be forced to watch Josh's download. Watching the CSA is not going to change her mind in regard to Josh's guilt or innocence. She's his wife, she may be a bitch, she's in denial and she's a hateful Fundy, but she didn't break the law - Josh did.

Anna is a woman who married a creep. The court case had nothing to do with her or her children. Like her or not, none of this is her fault.

 

[AstridM]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

I don't think Anna should be forced to watch Josh's download. Watching the CSA is not going to change her mind in regard to Josh's guilt or innocence. She's his wife, she may be a bitch, she's in denial and she's a hateful Fundy, but she didn't break the law - Josh did.

Anna is a woman who married a creep. The court case had nothing to do with her or her children. Like her or not, none of this is her fault.

 

I don’t think she should be forced to watch the actual downloads. That would be illegal. I think she should know exactly what was on those videos, though. By reading or by someone telling it to her straight. 

[dariafan]

Too bad one of us can’t volunteer to be the watch dog.   He would get sent back so fast 

[Zella]

5 minutes ago, dariafan said:

Too bad one of us can’t volunteer to be the watch dog.   He would get sent back so fast 

My guess is the family won't report him for anything, but he'll trip any electronic surveillance fast. 

[Laura Holt]

21 minutes ago, Zella said:

My guess is the family won't report him for anything, but he'll trip any electronic surveillance fast. 

While this is especially true for a Duggar it's probably largely true for most families.  They don't get turned in by family members or friends what gets them is they can't stop themselves from re-offending.  Gary Glitter being the most recent celebrity who should have known he'd be under extra scrutiny but managed to mess up within IIRC a month or so of his release.  I am positive the same thing will happen with Josh.  He thinks he's smarter than anyone else in the room (and within his immediate family maybe that's true) but he's not as smart as he thinks he is.

[Tdoc72]

43 minutes ago, Zella said:

My guess is the family won't report him for anything, but he'll trip any electronic surveillance fast. 

Covenant Eyes 2: Electric Boogaloo 

[Kbo]

17 hours ago, satrunrose said:

I felt sorry for Anna until scandal 1. She got chained to J'inmate when she was incredibly young and the people who were supposed to be guiding her chucked her under the bus (JB because I think he legit believed that a dutiful wifey would cure FF and Mr Keller... well amongst the daughters who stayed fundie, David Waller aka the Pecan Thief/possible groomer is probably the best of the bunch husband-wise and that is a looooow bar). I even get why Anna didn't kick J'Inmate firmly to the curb after the first two scandals sent him to Jesus Jail. She had four kids and was raised to be completely dependent on a headship (plus, I think she might have gotten a fair bit of milage in their circles for being the martyred wife).

What I don't feel sorry for is the choices she made post Ashly Madison. She could have had a conveniently timed migraine every month, she could have done what seems to be tacitly approved for fundie women who have deadbeat husbands (see Carlin Bates, Jill Rod and even Jill Duggar when Derick was trying to figure out what the hell he was doing with his life) and start a "home based business". Not that I would generally recommend selling plexus or similar, but something to start an escape fund would have been smart. Instead, she popped out another handful of m&ms and doubled down on the cracker crumbs. 

Totally agree. If she’d stopped having kids post scandal, she’d have four school age kids and she could work during the day. Of course, they’d never send their kids to public school 🙄 and a job is out of the question, but four older kids would still be much easier to handle alone than seven kids. 

[libgirl2]

43 minutes ago, Kbo said:

Totally agree. If she’d stopped having kids post scandal, she’d have four school age kids and she could work during the day. Of course, they’d never send their kids to public school 🙄 and a job is out of the question, but four older kids would still be much easier to handle alone than seven kids. 

Exactly, but no, she had to have more. Now she is stuck. 

[Laura Holt]

8 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Exactly, but no, she had to have more.

And she is very much the one who was pushing to have more and more kids.  She made comments over and over again that made it obvious she was aiming to have 20 kids and counting.  I will never defend Josh but I do think in this one specific area he was the one who didn't want to compete with Mom and Dad.

[libgirl2]

13 minutes ago, Laura Holt said:

And she is very much the one who was pushing to have more and more kids.  She made comments over and over again that made it obvious she was aiming to have 20 kids and counting.  I will never defend Josh but I do think in this one specific area he was the one who didn't want to compete with Mom and Dad.

No, he never struck me as wanting to have all the kids he already has. 

[Minivanessa]

47 minutes ago, Laura Holt said:

And she is very much the one who was pushing to have more and more kids.  She made comments over and over again that made it obvious she was aiming to have 20 kids and counting.  I will never defend Josh but I do think in this one specific area he was the one who didn't want to compete with Mom and Dad.

 

33 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

No, he never struck me as wanting to have all the kids he already has. 

I know. He seemed pretty checked out even early on in his "fatherhood journey" (I can hear that phrase in Michelle's baby voice). Didn't he take a nap while she was in labor in the next room?

There was a scene in the show, either during their engagement or just after their wedding, when Anna smugly said, as to baby names, "We haven't picked our letter yet." IIRC the Duggar daughters present did not go into raptures of delight at that. I believe the remark drew more side-eye than anything else. 

I don't know if they really want to and just don't think it's cool to talk about it, but I never got a feeling that the adult Duggar daughters wanted to compete with Michelle as to the baby-making numbers. Jessa's had the most babies so far, is probably working on #5 or will be soon. Joy and Jill are at three each and Jinger's got two. Except for Jinger, each of them has had at least one miscarriage or stillbirth, and difficulties or complications in labor and delivery. so even if they aspire to huge numbers they may not be able to achieve them anyway. Anna and Kendra seem to be the most like Michelle in the baby-making game. 

Is artificial insemination allowed by their religious doctrines? I think that if it is, and if Anna even had an inkling he'd be convicted and go to prison, she'd have moved heaven and earth to get some of her husband's semen frozen for future use. I think she's that deep into the fabulousness and godliness of her role as babymaker for Jesus. And her status as the Crown Princess of the Holy Duggar Empire.

Well, oops, I think Katey's gonna grab that tiara off Anna's head any time now and plunk it on her own. Because it goes along with marriage to the Crown Prince, and that gig is over for J'inmate.

[merylinkid]

19 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

ut I never got a feeling that the adult Duggar daughters wanted to compete with Michelle as to the baby-making numbers.

Because they had their fill of baby raising as kids.   Why would the sign on for decades more of it?    Even if they do the sister mom thing, its still years of being pregnant and having to care for them when small.

I think the kids also realize that money is not endless and it is not easy to provide for a large family.   Especially the older ones who remember the days before the show and all the money that brought in.  

[xwordfanatik]

34 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

 

I know. He seemed pretty checked out even early on in his "fatherhood journey" (I can hear that phrase in Michelle's baby voice). Didn't he take a nap while she was in labor in the next room?

There was a scene in the show, either during their engagement or just after their wedding, when Anna smugly said, as to baby names, "We haven't picked our letter yet." IIRC the Duggar daughters present did not go into raptures of delight at that. I believe the remark drew more side-eye than anything else. 

I don't know if they really want to and just don't think it's cool to talk about it, but I never got a feeling that the adult Duggar daughters wanted to compete with Michelle as to the baby-making numbers. Jessa's had the most babies so far, is probably working on #5 or will be soon. Joy and Jill are at three each and Jinger's got two. Except for Jinger, each of them has had at least one miscarriage or stillbirth, and difficulties or complications in labor and delivery. so even if they aspire to huge numbers they may not be able to achieve them anyway. Anna and Kendra seem to be the most like Michelle in the baby-making game. 

Is artificial insemination allowed by their religious doctrines? I think that if it is, and if Anna even had an inkling he'd be convicted and go to prison, she'd have moved heaven and earth to get some of her husband's semen frozen for future use. I think she's that deep into the fabulousness and godliness of her role as babymaker for Jesus. And her status as the Crown Princess of the Holy Duggar Empire.

Well, oops, I think Katey's gonna grab that tiara off Anna's head any time now and plunk it on her own. Because it goes along with marriage to the Crown Prince, and that gig is over for J'inmate.

Jinjer did have a miscarriage a few years back.

So glad I wasn't born into that baby-churning cult.  I was one and done.

[cmr2014]

23 hours ago, Zella said:

I understand all the perfectly logical reasons people give for having some sympathy for Anna, but I really don't give a shit. She sat through that trial and heard all that evidence and still somehow concluded her husband was the victim and not those poor children who were victimized in the filth he downloaded. She can go fuck off as far as I'm concerned. 

I don't have any sympathy for her, but I feel like I should.

She was raised in a bizarro-world where right is wrong and up is down. Thinking for yourself is bad and wrong. Reading and learning have to be closely monitored and are completely unacceptable outside of a small set of approved material.  Art, music. literature, and science are evil and must be avoided at all costs.

In her world, she has absolutely no value except as Josh's wife. Her children are supposed to be secondary to caring for her husband. He is everything and without him, she's really, literally, nothing. I think she 100% believes that "the government" hates Christians and is actively out to persecute good people. I think that she 100% believes that "the government" would make up all sorts of "evidence" that they would use in their persecution of Jesus-loving Josh.

I don't think Anna is very smart (and, hey, she's smarter than Priscilla! is a low bar), and she has had much less exposure to the outside world than her in-laws. so I'm not convinced by the "she's an adult and she should know" arguments.

All that being said, I just find her completely unsympathetic. I find her really unpleasant as a person. I find her voice cloying and unpleasant; her "countenance" is pinched and smug. She never comes across as being simply nice, or pleasant, or helpful -- she just seems like someone who is making a show of being "good."