Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[GeeGolly]

I can't imagine what the tension in the courtroom must feel like. I'm tense and I know he's going to prison no matter what.

[TeeVeeWatcher]

11 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

From your keyboard to God's ears. As you indicated, the Duggar contingent doesn't understand that - so the defense lawyers have to get up and do their bit in court, and of course the prosecution has to respond.

But keep in mind JimBob is being billed for every last second of their time, so find joy in that.

[MaryAnneSpier]

I woke up this morning feeling excited, but I didn't know why. Then I saw today's date was May 25, which rang a bell for some reason. I didn't connect the dots until an hour later! 

[Zella]

I think they're on a break.

The Sun just posted this:

Josh Duggar appeared in 'happy spirits'

This morning in the courtroom, Josh Duggar appeared to be reading over a page-long statement that the Sun court reporter noted he may possibly read later.

She noted Josh was in "happy spirits" and that he smiled and joked with the judge's clerk.

He was seen turning around and speaking to his wife Anna Duggar multiple times.

Josh Duggar's appearance in court

Josh Duggar walked into the courtroom wearing a gray suit, according to the Sun's court reporter at the trial this morning.

She noted that the former reality star has a beard and appeared to have lost more of his hair.

He smiled at his wife, Anna Duggar, and sat down to talk to his lawyers.

He also turned around to say hello to everyone.

Anna was seen making a hand gesture towards him.

[Absolom]

20 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I suspect a break soon, if they're going to go long.

I was thinking the judge would want to finish this before lunch.  Although he can't order the lawyers to shut up and get it over.  

[auntieminem]

Lunch break.  Twitter report, taking long because of objections. 

[GeeGolly]

1 minute ago, Zella said:

I think they're on a break.

The Sun just posted this:

Josh Duggar appeared in 'happy spirits'

This morning in the courtroom, Josh Duggar appeared to be reading over a page-long statement that the Sun court reporter noted he may possibly read later.

She noted Josh was in "happy spirits" and that he smiled and joked with the judge's clerk.

He was seen turning around and speaking to his wife Anna Duggar multiple times.

Josh Duggar's appearance in court

Josh Duggar walked into the courtroom wearing a gray suit, according to the Sun's court reporter at the trial this morning.

She noted that the former reality star has a beard and appeared to have lost more of his hair.

He smiled at his wife, Anna Duggar, and sat down to talk to his lawyers.

He also turned around to say hello to everyone.

Anna was seen making a hand gesture towards him.

Shit this means we're going long.

[Absolom]

22 minutes ago, Boston said:

No Cheetos - orange fingers and shmutz on your keyboard or phone (I know what I speak of)

Tweezers.  I used to need to snack to write the stuff I had to at work and that's what I used to avoid shmutz and grease spots.  

[libgirl2]

2 minutes ago, Zella said:

I think they're on a break.

The Sun just posted this:

Anna was seen making a hand gesture towards him.

I know what hand gesture I would like to make towards him. 

[MaryAnneSpier]

2 minutes ago, Zella said:

I think they're on a break.

The Sun just posted this:

Josh Duggar appeared in 'happy spirits'

This morning in the courtroom, Josh Duggar appeared to be reading over a page-long statement that the Sun court reporter noted he may possibly read later.

She noted Josh was in "happy spirits" and that he smiled and joked with the judge's clerk.

He was seen turning around and speaking to his wife Anna Duggar multiple times.

Josh Duggar's appearance in court

Josh Duggar walked into the courtroom wearing a gray suit, according to the Sun's court reporter at the trial this morning.

She noted that the former reality star has a beard and appeared to have lost more of his hair.

He smiled at his wife, Anna Duggar, and sat down to talk to his lawyers.

He also turned around to say hello to everyone.

Anna was seen making a hand gesture towards him.

Still the phony showman. Gotta be laughing and joking when there's an audience, no matter the circumstance. 

[all fall down]

2 minutes ago, Zella said:

I think they're on a break.

The Sun just posted this:

Josh Duggar's appearance in court

Josh Duggar walked into the courtroom wearing a gray suit, according to the Sun's court reporter at the trial this morning.

She noted that the former reality star has a beard and appeared to have lost more of his hair.

He smiled at his wife, Anna Duggar, and sat down to talk to his lawyers.

He also turned around to say hello to everyone.

Anna was seen making a hand gesture towards him.

"Anna was seen making a hand gesture towards him."

I'm sure she was just waving, but I just want to imagine her giving him the finger!

[Boston]

She noted that the former reality star has a beard and appeared to have lost more of his hair.

He should be bald by now.  The unfortunate JB hairlines.  Karma

[GeeGolly]

I can imagine Anna shaping her hands as a heart and pumping them in front of her chest. Blowing kisses and giving him a thumbs up.

Cuz, you know - a Duggar goes to court. 🤣

[SusanM]

1 minute ago, MaryAnneSpier said:

Still the phony showman. Gotta be laughing and joking when there's an audience, no matter the circumstance. 

Another example of how little control his defense lawyers have on his behavior?  I mean seriously, would any lawyer suggest that yukking it up as you are about to be sentenced for child sex abuse is a good idea??  He's just so fracking selfish.

[Zella]

That reporter on Twitter has good details on the objections. More helpful than anything The Sun has written

Apparently the judge overruled the defense's objection to the enhancements regarding prior acts and the content of the material he had downloaded. The defense also tried to claim the victims of the CSAM are not specifically his victims and the judge overruled that one too. He did sustain the defense's objection concerning Josh knowingly distributing. 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Zella

[crazycatlady58]

Question for our lawyers: Does the fact they seem to be taking a long time mean anything? 

[GeeGolly]

Just now, Zella said:

That reporter on Twitter has good details on the objections. Apparently the judge overruled the defense's attempts to claim the enhancements regarding prior acts and the content of the material he had downloaded. The defense also tried to claim the victims of the CSAM are not specifically his victims and the judge overruled that one too. 

What the actual fuck?!

[merylinkid]

Defense has to get ALL their objections on the record.   If you don't, you can't appeal it later.   The Defense is just doing their job.   But DAMN.   Get it over with already people.

[SusanM]

1 minute ago, Zella said:

The defense also tried to claim the victims of the CSAM are not specifically his victims and the judge overruled that one too. 

Would someone even be on trial if this was actually true?

[Ijustwantsomechips]

Victim impact statement discussed at sentencing

The judge at the sentencing hearing also discussed a victim impact statement provided by one of the mothers of a CSAM victim. 

He called it “heartbreaking."

JUST NOW

Judge discussed letters from family and friends

The judge at the sentencing hearing today said good morning to Josh Duggar and Josh responded in kind. 

The judge discussed the letters written for Josh and called them “helpful," especially Anna and Michelle Duggar's. 

The judge called those letters “nice."

Lacount Reber also wrote a letter and the judge noted he appreciated it because Josh stayed with him while on house arrest.

The judge noted that “collectively, I considered the letters.”
 

I seriously hope Judge Brooks doesn’t fall for the okie doke.

[3girlsforus]

1 minute ago, Zella said:

That reporter on Twitter has good details on the objections. Apparently the judge overruled the defense's objection to the enhancements regarding prior acts and the content of the material he had downloaded. The defense also tried to claim the victims of the CSAM are not specifically his victims and the judge overruled that one too. 

I would assume this is a common argument in this kind of case. 

1 minute ago, merylinkid said:

Defense has to get ALL their objections on the record.   If you don't, you can't appeal it later.   The Defense is just doing their job.   But DAMN.   Get it over with already people.

Yep - this is why there is the expression 'the wheels of justice turn slowly' and I like to add 'exasperatingly' 

[GeeGolly]

1 minute ago, Ijustwantsomechips said:

Victim impact statement discussed at sentencing

The judge at the sentencing hearing also discussed a victim impact statement provided by one of the mothers of a CSAM victim. 

He called it “heartbreaking."

JUST NOW

Judge discussed letters from family and friends

The judge at the sentencing hearing today said good morning to Josh Duggar and Josh responded in kind. 

The judge discussed the letters written for Josh and called them “helpful," especially Anna and Michelle Duggar's. 

The judge called those letters “nice."

Lacount Reber also wrote a letter and the judge noted he appreciated it because Josh stayed with him while on house arrest.

The judge noted that “collectively, I considered the letters.”
 

I seriously hope Judge Brooks doesn’t fall for the okie doke.

He's not. He's just getting it on record that he read their bullshit statements.

[Zella]

3 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

What the actual fuck?!

1 minute ago, 3girlsforus said:

I would assume this is a common argument in this kind of case. 

2 minutes ago, SusanM said:

Would someone even be on trial if this was actually true?

The judge told them this is not factual, and because of the conviction, Josh is no longer presumed innocent. I couldn't believe they tried to claim that. He also told them their attempts to overturn the enhancement because of how sadistic the material was was "frivolous."

1 minute ago, GeeGolly said:

He's not. He's just getting it on record that he read their bullshit statements.

Agreed. I think it's also a token attempt to appear cordial, so they don't immediately start screaming that the judge was obviously biased when he hands down the sentence. They will probably scream it, but they'll be the only ones thinking it. 

[Ijustwantsomechips]

I keep getting this shitty feeling the FF will only get six years. I sure hope I’m wrong.

[Zella]

And the reporter said court resumes at 12:10 pm. Seems like a quick lunch break, though I don't know when they started. 

[MargeGunderson]

Per the Twitter feed of a reporter on the scene, they are returning at 12:10 CT. Also, the judge has overruled several of the defense’s objections to the enhancements (but not all).

[Zella]

Just now, Ijustwantsomechips said:

I keep getting this shitty feeling the FF will only get six years. I sure hope I’m wrong.

That would be lower than the judge has doled out for people who took a plea for this. I really don't think that is happening.

[Minivanessa]

I'm going to try a cut and paste from reporter Anna Darlling's Twitter thread instead of posting what would be either several screen shots or a long one. In the meantime I think @Zella and maybe others are recapping the rulings. 

Quote

Defense first argued to the entirety of the offense conduct section in the PSR, maintaining #JoshDuggar’s innocence and try to their best to preserve their chances of appeal.

Overruled. Not specific enough, no more presumption of innocence since found guilty by jury.

Not surprising.

Quote

Defense tried to argue that while the children in the CSAM are victims, they are not victims of #Duggar because (again) they maintain his innocence.

Overruled. Not factual and (again) no more presumption of innocence.

Not surprising, at least to me.

Quote

The court has officially vacated his second count, which was for possession of child pornography, and was the lesser charge. Several things in PSR related to two counts, so several objections to that language were sustained.

Receipt of child porn is the only charge being judged.

That ^ was expected, IIRC.

Quote

Defense objected to a 2 level enhancement that #Duggar knowingly engaged in distribution of CSAM.

Sustained. A 2016 amendment makes it harder to enhance distribution in peer to peer file sharing. Government didn’t meet burden of proof for this amendment.

So the defense wins this one.

Quote

Defense objected to a 4 level enhancement for sadistic/masochistic conduct. Argued inconsistent testimony in which files were downloaded.

Judge didn’t like this argument calling it “frivolous” saying we have clear evidence of [details omitted] on the computer.

Prosecution win here. I deleted the phrase which isn't horribly graphic, but still possibly triggering.

Quote

Defense objected 5 level enhancement for pattern of activity of exploitation/abuse of minors.

Argued only prior evidence was from when #Duggar was a child and touched/penetrated minor Jane Does. Never charged/convicted for this. 20 years later we have computer related instance

Prosecution cited several prior cases where similar time gaps existed and the enhancement was still found. They said Bobye Holt’s testimony from when #Duggar was 15 shows pattern of behavior.

Judge overruled the objection.

Defense loses that one. I might have cheered out loud about it. Just saying.

I won't quote the deets on the number of images, but the judge found it's less than 600, so a "level 4 enhancement." Which is a point for the defense. 

Quote

Rest of objections were either withdrawn or will be dealt with when the Judge deals with release conditions. They have to deal with contact with minors and polygraph tests.

Court re-convenes at 12:10 Central Time, she said. I wonder if she meant 1:10 since it's almost 12:10 Central Time now?

Edited May 25, 2022 by Jeeves

[Zella]

Apparently the defense also objected to an enhancement for the amount of material, and that's now been revised down to still an enhancement but a lower level one than what the prosecution asked for. 

[lovesnark]

I was getting hungry but didn't want to cook anything, so I went with a great big smoothie with everything in it. It should hold me for hours (which I hope won't be the case).

[Notabug]

3 minutes ago, Ijustwantsomechips said:

Victim impact statement discussed at sentencing

The judge at the sentencing hearing also discussed a victim impact statement provided by one of the mothers of a CSAM victim. 

He called it “heartbreaking."

JUST NOW

Judge discussed letters from family and friends

The judge at the sentencing hearing today said good morning to Josh Duggar and Josh responded in kind. 

The judge discussed the letters written for Josh and called them “helpful," especially Anna and Michelle Duggar's. 

The judge called those letters “nice."

Lacount Reber also wrote a letter and the judge noted he appreciated it because Josh stayed with him while on house arrest.

The judge noted that “collectively, I considered the letters.”
 

I seriously hope Judge Brooks doesn’t fall for the okie doke.

The judge wants it to be on record that he considered everything the defense had o say including the letters.  This way, it is in the court transcript and the defense cannot try to appeal claiming the judge didn't consider all of the information at his disposal.  

The least he could say was that the letters were 'helpful' and 'nice'.  It could be they were 'helpful' in convincing him that Josh and his family are still in denial as to the reprehensible nature of his crimes and the damage done to countless kids by this stuff which is why he is never in a million years going to think that Josh can safely live out in the community with his clueless family and friends.  As for 'nice', maybe his 6th grade girlfriend signed her name with a little heart over the i and it was 'nice' to be reminded by Michelle's signature.

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

I'm going to try a cut and paste from reporter Anna Darlling's Twitter thread instead of posting what would be either several screen shots or a long one. In the meantime I think @Zella and maybe others are recapping the rulings. 

Not surprising.

Not surprising, at least to me.

That ^ was expected, IIRC.

So the defense wins this one.

Prosecution win here. I deleted the phrase which isn't horribly graphic, but still possibly triggering.

Defense loses that one. I might have cheered out loud about it. Just saying.

I won't quote the deets on the number of images, but the judge found it's less than 600, so a "level 4 enhancement." Which is a point for the defense. 

Court re-convenes at 12:10 Central Time, she said. I wonder if she meant 1:10 since it's almost 12:10 Central Time now?

Thanks for this, Jeeves! I always like getting a lawyer's take and especially yours! :) This reporter is local, so I don't think she is confusing the time. 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Zella

[Minivanessa]

2 minutes ago, Zella said:

Apparently the defense also objected to an enhancement for the amount of material, and that's now been revised down to still an enhancement but a lower level one than what the prosecution asked for. 

Yes. That's the one I didn't quote, just referred to. It makes it a level 4 enhancement now, according to the judge's comment when he sustained the defense objection to the prosecution's count of images.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Jeeves

[Ijustwantsomechips]

I just read the level 4 enhancements bring the minimum to 121-151 months per Reddit. I hope that’s right. 

[sagittarius sue]

3 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

Per the Twitter feed of a reporter on the scene, they are returning at 12:10 CT. Also, the judge has overruled several of the defense’s objections to the enhancements (but not all).

Many of the objections sustained were simply re:  2 charges vs. 1 charge so they were easily sustained.  According to Anne Darling's tweets we're at a Level 4 enhancement level.

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, Ijustwantsomechips said:

I just read the level 4 enhancements bring the minimum to 121-151 months per Reddit. I hope that’s right. 

Someone in the reporter's mentions on Twitter is calculating the enhancements that were kept is up to 12.5 years but is also including the disclaimer they're not a lawyer. 

[MargeGunderson]

The Ashley is reporting that James is also there, and he, Jason and Joy were all in the back seats, not near JB, Anna, or Anna’s brother David and his wife Hannah.

[ScorpioSoul]

1 minute ago, sagittarius sue said:

Many of the objections sustained were simply re:  2 charges vs. 1 charge so they were easily sustained.  According to Anne Darling's tweets we're at a Level 4 enhancement level.

Good the longer, the better.

[MargeGunderson]

I think there is a level 5 enhancement for the pattern of exploitation and abuse of minors. The defense was overruled on their objection.

[mythoughtis]

2 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

The Ashley is reporting that James is also there, and he, Jason and Joy were all in the back seats, not near JB, Anna, or Anna’s brother David and his wife Hannah.

It said on the prosecution side- but I’m  not sure that really matters.  They didn’t arrive together and there is probably only so many seats on each side 

[Tikichick]

18 minutes ago, Zella said:

That reporter on Twitter has good details on the objections. More helpful than anything The Sun has written

Apparently the judge overruled the defense's objection to the enhancements regarding prior acts and the content of the material he had downloaded. The defense also tried to claim the victims of the CSAM are not specifically his victims and the judge overruled that one too. He did sustain the defense's objection concerning Josh knowingly distributing. 

The 2 objections the judge shutdown are good signs for the prospective sentence.

[hathorlive]

26 minutes ago, Absolom said:

Tweezers.  I used to need to snack to write the stuff I had to at work and that's what I used to avoid shmutz and grease spots.  

I blew my fasting time and dug into Cheeto puffs, just as my boss asked me to speak on Zoom.  Fun times.  Cheeto fingers on screen.  Drama makes me hungry.  It will be interesting to see which points the Judge agreed with Duggar on.

[Minivanessa]

2 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

I blew my fasting time and dug into Cheeto puffs, just as my boss asked me to speak on Zoom.  Fun times.  Cheeto fingers on screen.  Drama makes me hungry.  It will be interesting to see which points the Judge agreed with Duggar on.

I recapped above the ones discussed in Anna Darling's detailed Twitter thread, which is here: https://twitter.com/AnnaDarlingTV/status/1529502969410068481.

ETA: Good luck with the Zoom meeting. Sorry about the Cheeto puff dust!!

Edited May 25, 2022 by Jeeves

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

The 2 objections the judge shutdown are good signs for the prospective sentence.

My totally armchair guess for a while has been he'll get 15 years. That is not based on any of the guidelines used for sentencing. But I definitely don't think he's slithering out of there with only the minimum 5. 

[Dianaofthehunt]

Is there any chance this sentencing could go into tomorrow? 

I want that shit nailed with the maximum sentence.

[Tikichick]

2 minutes ago, Zella said:

My totally armchair guess for a while has been he'll get 15 years. That is not based on any of the guidelines used for sentencing. But I definitely don't think he's slithering out of there with only the minimum 5. 

I don't believe he'll get the minimum either.   I will gratefully take every millisecond that lousy excuse for a human is sentenced to and I will greedily lust after more with the gluttonous appetite of the eldest Duggar spawn. 

[quarks]

Regarding the judge's comments on the letters written for Josh - they were nice letters, in the sense that they all said very nice things about Josh.

And I suspect that the judge did find them helpful, in the sense that they clarified that once released, Josh will have no problems finding someone willing to give him unlimited access to a computer.  Good information to have when considering sentencing for a crime done using a computer.

So I am taking the judge's comments both as letting the defense/Josh know that yes, those letters were read, so no, the defense/Josh can't claim that they weren't read, and as a purely accurate description of the contents. 

[Minivanessa]

From the Sun about defense objections to the pre-sentence report: 

Quote

Objections 11 and 12 involved striking information about the Ashley Madison scandal and porn addition [sic], with Josh Duggar's lawyer Justin Gelfand arguing that the infidelity had nothing to do with these crimes.

Dustin Roberts [prosecutor] argued that he wanted it considered because it proves "moral shortcomings" when Josh has claimed to be a family man.

The judge agreed with Gelfand. It was noted that addiction to porn is relevant to determining programs related to treatment while incarcerated and later on, but that there is nothing illegal about adult pornography.

That's not surprising to me though I'm no expert on these issues.

[cereality]

Well Joshie's team pretty much got smoked on pre sentencing objections; nearly every single one overruled.

I'm surprised Jill and Derick aren't there; Derick may be working now but you'd think Jill would want to come.

[Zella]

Just now, cereality said:

you'd think Jill would want to come.

She only attended the last day of the trial, with Derick, though he attended every day. I don't think she'd ever attend without Derick there.