Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[kellylovessnark]

It seems that Josh is going to have a lot of time with a girl named Karma. Hope he like a girl who's kinda of a bitch.

[Wellfleet]

I'm going to be completely honest here. I DID want to see the Duggars fall. Not because they are Christians and not because they have 19 kids.

 I wanted them (The parents, never the kids) because I can't stand the way they raise their kids  and I cannot stand the church/group they belong to or  certain discriminatory  stands I think they take. Well, I got what I wanted.. I sure did.  But I get no satisfaction from it. I get a horrible sick feeling in my stomach because I NEVER believed those particular rumors. I thought they were over the line.

   I really liked Anna too. I thought she was a good kind human being and I still want to believe she didn't know the whole truth. If she did then she is not who I thought she was. I never , ever would have wished anything like this on those kids. I really genuinely care about the kids. I was actually sort of sttarting to like JB when he was away from Michelle and when dealing with his girls marriages.

I believe religion is a good thing and that it really can sustain people through bad times. I don't feel their particular belief set is going to bring those girls any relief, just shame and  sadness. Maybe, just maybe they can find some regular Christians to tell them that they are OK and not to blame  

I didn't want this. This breaks my heart

 

I think most of us here feel precisely the same, JennyMom. Definitely a case of being-careful-what-you-wish-for. Personally I wanted the Duggars off TV, that's it. If they want to travel the country preaching their message, as heinous as much of it is, that is their prerogative as Americans. But to me, the Duggars on TV were what cigarette advertising on TV was in the late 60s. An incredibly-easy way to reach millions of people including children with a harmful and unhealthy practice. What did we do then? Congress banned tobacco ads on TV. But no, I never wanted this either.

[Darknight]

I wrote a LONG post about this and of course my computer deleted it or lost it or something. I just don't see it the way many of you do. I feel compassion for every member of that family. I believe JB and Michelle raised their children in the way they thought was best, whether we agree with that or not. I can't imagine taking my 14 year old son to the police station to report this behavior, not knowing what the consequences might be (even if they waited). I'm not worried about their financial future. They are a wealthy family. I know I cannot explain my compassion to the satisfaction of most posters here, but I think this will bring their family closer (yes, closer). And I still think this is a tragedy for every member. As I said before I cannot be gleeful about all this. I can't say they deserve it. I just can't even though I have basically disagreed with many of their child rearing methods. I hope that their faith will sustain them through all of this. Just my opinion.

Sorry but JimChelle knew what they were doing when they join gothard. They want control, which is what cults are about. They keep their kids uneducated, and kept having babies for their kids to raise. JimChelle are abusers just like josh. I would turn in my own child if he did something like this. It's sad for the victims.

[JoanArc]

 

They said they had a rule that if someone asks you to keep a secret; you must immediately tell Jim Bob and Michelle. Now, what kind of secrets are they afraid of? Was there a situation where someone asked a Duggar child not to tell a secret?

It struck me as odd. They were being viligant about it. As if one of their kids had a bad secret they were hiding.

That interview they gave where they explained each child has to tell them in detail about their sexual thoughts and fantasies takes on a new level of creepiness, now. If that's even possible. Yuck.

[General Days]

Imho, I don't think sending him to live elsewhere is the point. The problem, as I see it, is that, rather than get the boy REAL help, from a licensed psychiatrist or psychologist, they sent him to do manual labor. They also had Josh mentored by a, as it came to light, a pedophile and sex offender who would end up spending years in prison. I have a hard time believing it's coincidental that this whole "intervention" took place three years after Josh first confessed and AFTER Jim Bob lost his political bid for US Senator. Rather than protect his daughters by having Josh go through appropriate counselling (and, at the same time, giving his girls a safe place with a licensed therapist and victim's advocate), Jim Bob let it go unreported for years and sent his son to a sex offender. Jim Bob also refused to allow Josh to give a statement and tried to obtain a defense attorney for Josh. Maybe, instead of plopping out more potential victims, Michelle and Jim Bob should've admitted there was serious dysfunction in their family. If they hadn't been so concerned with their carefully manicured image, they might've actually protected their daughters by never allowing Josh to be alone with the kids. Michelle made a robo call demonizing transgender people under the umbrella of protecting her daughters... and, in her heart of hearts, she knew the reality of the threat being within her own khakis-and-polos offspring.

 

Where are you getting that the Duggars had Josh mentored by a pedophile? If I recall correctly, they sent him to a family friend for 3 months. When he got home, JB and the elders took Josh to a State Trooper, who was later convicted on charges of child porn (and who gave the boy a stern warning), but he wasn't the mentor. The mentor was someone else, right -- or did I miss something?

That said, I'm with you on your larger point. This child (and his targets!!!) should have received solid counseling (like, I can't imagine I wouldn't have made a frantic call to my pediatrician, begging for a referral to a good psychologist, upon learning of the first incident). He should have been removed from the home while completing treatment. I'm not going to speculate toward the parents' motives for waiting so long to do anything. I don't feel like I have enough information. That said, as the parent of both male and female children, I would have been torn -- wanting to protect both of them, but erring on the side of protecting those who were allegedly assaulted. 

I've been through all flavors of Protestantism, and am still Christian, so I'll add with some authority (i.e. the authority of experience) that in some Evangelical and Fundie circles, there is a profound, superstitious mistrust of psychiatry and psychology, which is just shameful, imho.

 

Anna is just as guilty as Smugs. How could she marry him, knowing what he had done? And have children with him? Screw you, Anna. You're a moron.

 

She was a 20 year old, naive, sheltered virgin, who learned about it years after the fact. I doubt she had the capacity to fully comprehend, and I won't hold her responsible for sins he committed, years before they were together. If their current accounts are to believed, when Josh confessed to her, her parents were present, so shame on them.

 

I wonder if Anna has peeked at the 33-page offense report document?  Would you if your partner were in a similar position?

 

I think I couldn't NOT look at the document. I might not let my partner know, but I would have to look. What about you?

 

Another side effect to this creepy family dynamic.

I've been watching CNN coverage and I am distressed that the victims do not seem to be the primary story. It's Josh, JB and Michelle, Huckabee, TLC.

Second thoughts, maybe it is for the best. They have been so violated already

 

I do think that's the case. I think the press usually takes the stand of protecting the survivors' identities, as much as possible. And to give Joss his microscopic due, I didn't blame him for not speaking more about his targets in his public confession, because how would one do that, without compromising their remaining shreds of privacy? I know a lot of people read his admission as an "It's all about me," thing, but I can't imagine how else he could have worded it, without furthering exploiting his targets.

 

Anna seems to have been raised to marry quickly, with her parents consent.   He told her, but did he tell them?   Anna is as dumb as a bag of hammers, so if he told her, what did he tell her.   Of course if he said he repented and was forgiven, she's buy it.  Nobody would ever accuse her of intellectual curiosity. 

 

That's how I feel.

 

 

They said they had a rule that if someone asks you to keep a secret; you must immediately tell Jim Bob and Michelle. Now, what kind of secrets are they afraid of? Was there a situation where someone asked a Duggar child not to tell a secret?

It struck me as odd. They were being viligant about it. As if one of their kids had a bad secret they were hiding.

 

Speaking as a parent, I have to say I've given similar cautions to my own children, in order to prevent child abuse. When my kids were little, I told them that if someone told them to keep something secret from me or their dad, that person had bad intentions. This is actually a pretty common point taught to parents (to safeguard their kids), because molesters will try anything to get kids to keep a secret, even threatening to kill the parents if the child tells. I remember having long conversations with my kids about the difference between a secret, which could be bad, and a surprise (like, we got mommy a pony, okay, nobody ever got me a pony, but you see what I mean). 

Edited May 23, 2015 by General Days

[Wellfleet]

The first Duggar special aired in 2004. By 2006, they had moved in to the TTH, and gone to California. They celebrated Josh's 18th birthday in that special. So, yeah, they actually decided to do specials when Josh was closer to 16, taping 14 Kids not long after Josh returned from "rehab." 

 

What baffles me is why the Duggars decided to do the episodic shows after the police interviews had taken place. I know they claim that it's their "ministry," but given that they pretty much ignored the seething pot of resentment that hadn't been dealt with, the decision to do the weekly shows certainly boiled down to the egos of the "parents." 

 

Yes, the decision to do the weekly show was pure Boob, IMO. His greed, his Olympic-size ego and his naivete too. 

[RazzleberryPie]

If Jill and/or Jessa are among the victims, I wonder what Derek and Ben think of their dear brother-in-law now. I also wonder if they were previously aware of this or whether it was a bombshell to them. It's not like they would have had the opportunity to talk about such personal things with their spouses before marriage, but I wonder if the info had been disclosed before now. I know we've observed Derek becoming more Duggarfied, but I just can't imagine that he'd be cool finding out his wife was molested by his brother-in-law. Not sure about what Ben's reaction would be.

Good point that another reason for chaperoning and rushing a wedding is to not allow all the skeleons to come out of the closet until the wedding has happened and there's no turning back (in their world). Derek is a wuss who probably would drink the Koolaid that Josh is sorry, the end. I bet his mother is horrified, though, and will be terrified everytime her grandchildren are near Josh or his kids, or the rest of the Duggars.

 

Ben - hmmm. After his dad stressing that we should all marry VERY VERY young to stay pure, and his comments about boys having to jump through hoops to please their girl's father, but I could still see Ben's dad wanting to fire the shotgun at Josh for being a pervert. Because that's what he is. It's one thing to be confused with raging hormones, but as much as modesty and purity are stressed, it's just WRONG for a teenage boy to feel up his SISTERS while they're sleeping. Smooch a willing friend behind a church = normal. Feel up your sisters, especially while they were sleeping and not consenting = not normal, and Josh had to know that. 

 

It's pretty much a given that Jessa, Jinger and Joy were victims. It's a toss up whether the final victim was Jill or Jana, but I'm leaning more towards Jana. I think Jill was the one who caught him and told her parents.

This explains Jessa's aggression toward her siblings and her bitchiness soooooo much more. It also explains her reluctance to warm up to Ben at first. That girl was molested and also terrified. Was all this before or after she kicked Jana's bunk all night/jewelry box incident? If she thought Jana knew or condoned, I can see a child misplacing anger this way. 

 

This also explains why Jana is reluctant to enter a courtship and stunted in maturity. She may associate sex with something forced up on you, and as a woman, you have to be available 24/7, for something not enjoyable, if your primary associations are don't/your brother/constant pregnancies.

 

I can't see Jill NOT snitching, either. She's immature, but she's always come off as a rule follower 100%. Josh's behavior breaks all the rules.

 

I grew up with an older brother. We spent quite a lot of time together and had a lot of fun. Our home life wasn't idyllic (no one's is), but there was never any threat of molestation. I can only speak for myself, but it might have had something to do with the lack of extreme sexual oppression, not being forced to track my mom's menstrual/sex schedule, and not having to watch my parents humping and "hey, hey, hey-ing" at every turn with no outlet for my own raging hormones.

(Edited to add that of course I don't excuse one bit of what Josh did. I don't want anyone to think that I do without seeing the rest of my posts. I feel zero sympathy for Josh.)

Exactly! I'm jaded and cold-hearted, so nothing surprises me, but his wasn't just consenting kids fooling around.  It's normal for a horny teen boy to want to sneak a peak at his mom's Victoria's Secret catalog, look a little too hard at the neighbor mowing the lawn in the bikini, etc., even fool around with girls at school or church. I've personally seen kids in youth group, at the church, trying to put hands up skirts or rub thighs under the table, touch side boobs during prayer, play footsie, kiss, etc., and they all knew church wasn't the place for this, and the worst offenders were always the ones who were the first to do the Silver Ring Thing or ask if we could introduce some purity pledge to the group. However, I don't recall any instance of sibling molestation. That's what Josh did. That wasn't consenting. That was incest. There's no way to justify his behavior.

[ThinkerBell]

Sickening. Gothard himself was an abuser. How awful to think that the same girls that Josh Duggar abused could also have been abused by Gothard, who then offered this type of 'counselling'.

[ginger90]

Michelle was asked if  the person Josh was sent to for his manual labor punishment was a mentor. Michelle answered , no not really, kind of.

I don't have the exact wording, so I did not use quotes I can't recall if this was part of the police report.

[Bella]

Please let's not over-speculate.

 

It's one thing to wonder if there are other shoes to drop. It's something else to assign names to those shoes, so to speak.

 

Thanks!

[ThinkerBell]

OMG this is just shocking and so screwed up.  Wow.

Sickening. Gothard himself was an abuser. How awful to think that the same girls that Josh Duggar abused could also have been abused by Gothard, who then offered this type of 'counselling'.

[BitterApple]

I'm sure Derick and Ben are reeling just like the rest of us, but part of me is afraid they'll follow the party line in terms of writing it off as past mistakes. The Seewalds and Dillards aren't Gothard, but they're very much Fundies. I'm hoping they're truly on their wives' sides with this and aren't trying to justify Josh's behavior.

ThinkerBell, but hey, it's all gravy if you get the shit kicked out of you on a regular basis because spiritual strength is your reward!!!

Edited May 23, 2015 by BitterApple

[General Days]

That interview they gave where they explained each child has to tell them in detail about their sexual thoughts and fantasies takes on a new level of creepiness, now. If that's even possible. Yuck.

 

Okay, I didn't know about that. I was strictly responding to the "don't keep a secret," thing. Parents are told to instruct their children that if another adult wants them to keep a secret, it is bad (and it usually is). 

 

 

Michelle was asked if  the person Josh was sent to for his manual labor punishment was a mentor. Michelle answered , no not really, kind of.

I don't have the exact wording, so I did not use quotes I can't recall if this was part of the police report.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think that's what was reported. The person who go locked up for 55 years was the cop to whom JB and the elders brought Josh, a year AFTER the incidents.

The mentor-ish person is not the person who was put in prison. The mentor-ish person was the person they sent Josh to, for 4 months. Am I making any sense?

[jschoolgirl]

I am satisfied that the hypocrisy of the parents was exposed.

------

I think we all knew *something* had to come out; they were just too off the rails. But I didn't think it would be this soon.

[NextIteration]

There is no glee to be had here for the victims who were probably traumatized, probably never received proper treatment and then were trapped in a situation where they had a camera shoved in their face 24/7.  The remaining minor children should be taken from the parents here, for so many reasons.

 

There really shouldn't be any statute of limitations on sexual abuse.

 

What is so reprehensible about the parents here is that try to imply people of the LGBT community endanger children - the hypocrisy reaches level here that are absolutely beyond...

[Quilt Fairy]

Posted in the wrong thread by  mistake.

 

Another Libbey Anne post, this one about what Gothard counseling in sexual abuse cases recommends: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/05/what-did-josh-duggars-counseling-look-like.html

(WARNING: Sick and disgusting in so many ways.)

[Darknight]

Anna is just as guilty as Smugs. How could she marry him, knowing what he had done? And have children with him? Screw you, Anna. You're a moron.

Anna's fundie. So she probably forgives Josh. So Josh wasn't pure before marriage. Anna would probably do the same thing JimChelle did. Nothing.

[JenCarroll]

That worksheet is a real gem. In summary: the abuse is all your fault, you did something to bring it upon yourself, your shame is deserved because you were somehow disobedient and if you don't forgive then you're a bad Christian. Unbelievable.

Just as bad, the beginning part tells you, "The only part of you that was damaged was your body, whereas the truly important part of you is the soul." Like its axiomatic that sexual abuse does no spiritual damage. Then we move on to the victim blaming, then back to minimizing. "You are at fault; change whatever you did wrong. And if by some extremely unlikely chance you were not at fault, then you should thank God you were abused because it gives you more spiritual power." It's a horror.

[awaken]

I asked this a few pages back and read several pages worth of comments and haven't seen an answer- people here are saying he did NOT receive counseling as he stated in his resignation.  He referenced going to the Vista program or something- is this not a real counseling program?  If not, what is it? And where people are saying he only did manual labor and didn't get counseling, what is this based upon?  I'm just curious, since people (not on this board) have said they did the right thing- "they sent him to counseling! what else could they do?!" (not mentioning, of course, the parenting and climate that fueled this to begin with).  

 

Thank you for clarifying about the "metal" rods - I think it was like a game of telephone- it just kept growing and getting changed and added onto when perhaps that was never said.  But beating and not leaving bruises :(  It is sad to say that it isn't illegal in many places in the US.  The feeling I got was that the Pearl stuff was earlier on and they became more lax with the "training" as they had more kids than they could reasonably control, and were more in the public eye, but I"m not basing that on anything.  

 

Is there a thread for the camera crew episode?  I have many questions and comments about that, but didn't see a thread for the ep.

[JoanArc]

 

The attorney on Anderson Cooper tonight was great. She did not mince words.  I believe her name is Areva Martin.  She had fully researched Arkansas law and was clear and compelling.

She also brought up a good point in that clergy are mandated reporters.     Of course we know that the clergy around the Duggars are not going to be "normal".

As I said earlier today, the Duggars keep company with very shady and dirty people.

Anderson Cooper, who's gay, and was aware of the Duggar's views, once did a whole episode interview with the Duggars. He didn't bring up homsexuality, and asked total softball questions. I'm so angry that the media perpetrated the lies, and now gets ratings tearing the family down. Honestly, every reporter that asked softball questions is on the hook.

[Marigold]

I think Anna is a true believer and she really believed that Josh has repented and changed.

[frenchtoast]

 

I asked this a few pages back and read several pages worth of comments and haven't seen an answer- people here are saying he did NOT receive counseling as he stated in his resignation.  He referenced going to the Vista program or something- is this not a real counseling program?  If not, what is it? And where people are saying he only did manual labor and didn't get counseling, what is this based upon?  I'm just curious, since people (not on this board) have said they did the right thing- "they sent him to counseling! what else could they do?!" (not mentioning, of course, the parenting and climate that fueled this to begin with).

What Josh may call counseling is not what most would consider counseling. He was given a stern talking by a police officer (who is serving time for child porn), a friend of Jim Bob. Before that, he was supposed to go somewhere for counseling, but ended up doing manual labor remodeling a house. So, he may consider it counseling. That's not the general consensus among experts.

 

And the Behind Episode topic is here.

[neural-plasticity]

I'm still behind a couple of pages, so I apologize. But, one thing that doesn't make sense to me now that I've had 24 hours to really process it more - how was JB able to take Josh to the police when it first(ish) happened but not have any charges pressed against him? Since the sheriff was a friend was he just super vague about it ("friend, my son is sinning, tell him what happens when you sin" type of thing) or did he really tell the sheriff what happened??? If he did tell him, how did no legal actions happen? I'm asking this out of curiousity, and I'm wondering if anyone knows, as I don't know the laws very well about this type of protocol. If he didn't come out and say what happened, that makes me even more pissed at JB for covering this up until he absolutely HAD to admit to it, once it was too late to do anything. I know Josh is his son, but how can he not want to protect his daughters????

[wanderwoman]

You know what's truly sad? Because, of Jim Bob and Michelle's out of control vanity and greed,....Because they knew there was this gigantic skeleton in the prayer closet and chose to do the show anyway, their children will never, ever be "healed". The best scenario for this would've been that Jim Bob and Michelle got everyone appropriate counselling immediately following the incident. They wouldn't have been famous or extravagantly wealthy, but they wouldn't have starved. Josh's indiscretions would have stayed, for the most part, a family secret and Josh might have had a life. The girls would've married and lived as normal a life as possible.

Knowing what they knew, how could they take their family and put them on tv? Was it worth it? No matter what- because of their greed and vanity- Josh will always be that kid who molested his sisters. Anna will be the woman who married a boy that sexually abused his sisters. I doubt Josh will ever find good work. He has little education and, now, the world knows his childhood shame and it will dog him the rest of his life. He's passed from famous to infamous in one swoop.

The Duggar girls will walk around knowing people know what happened to them. The ones already married will probably be ok. But, sadly, there are repercussions for the relationships to come. These girls wrote what was billed as a loving, honest evaluation of how amazing their family was...but it wasn't all that wonderful and now it comes off as a fabricated work of fiction.

The little ones will have to try to understand why Uncle Jim doesn't come around and why they don't get special treatment. If Jim Bob was smart, he saved money, because I suspect the show and personal appearances are done. No one will court their favor or opinion. How can you respect them as parents?

To paraphrase my DH: shit just got real. And it's all because Jim Bob and Michelle couldn't say no.

[General Days]

Just as bad, the beginning part tells you, "The only part of you that was damaged was your body, whereas the truly important part of you is the soul." Like its axiomatic that sexual abuse does no spiritual damage. Then we move on to the victim blaming, then back to minimizing. "You are at fault; change whatever you did wrong. And if by some extremely unlikely chance you were not at fault, then you should thank God you were abused because it gives you more spiritual power." It's a horror.

 

I think this is the most insidious thing. It's like if you feel any residual pain, it is your own fault for dwelling on it. I mean, let's look at this specific situation. Josh allegedly felt up these girls while they were asleep. It seems like some woke and some did not. That would not be *as* destructive as a rape with penetration, but to innocent young girls, it could still be very hurtful, and yet, if they're still feeling hurt, it is somehow their fault. Fuck that noise.

 

I asked this a few pages back and read several pages worth of comments and haven't seen an answer- people here are saying he did NOT receive counseling as he stated in his resignation.  He referenced going to the Vista program or something- is this not a real counseling program?  If not, what is it? And where people are saying he only did manual labor and didn't get counseling, what is this based upon?  I'm just curious, since people (not on this board) have said they did the right thing- "they sent him to counseling! what else could they do?!" (not mentioning, of course, the parenting and climate that fueled this to begin with).  

 

There have been a lot of false reports and I don't want to be a part of that, but my memory isn't perfect, so I'm qualifying the heck out of this response.

My understanding is that the Duggars' first response to this is that they sent Josh away for counseling. Then there was this whole big story about how some of the elders pointed out that some rehabs for youthful sex offenders really end up being more of a finishing school for sex offenders (i.e. the naive offenders learn how to keep it secret and keep it safe, and honestly, they're not entirely wrong about that). So, JB and Michelle sent Josh to a friend (probably connected with Hobby Lobby) in Arkansas, who put the boy to (hard, physical) work, every day, and then talked to him, for three or four months. In no way could this be an adequate program, but as far as I've been able to glean, they did not send him off to another sex offender (the sex offender was the trooper who later heard his confession). They just sent him to a friend, who is probably not qualified to treat this troubled boy.

Edited May 23, 2015 by General Days

[Kiss my mutt]

I wonder if the whole wearing clothes to bed started after the molestations.

[Marigold]

Any info on where Josh is going to live now? Jessa has their old house...

Josh is going to be unemployable now.

On a side note...guess we now know why he was always eating...eating alway his guilt/stress/troubles.

[General Days]

And the Behind Episode topic is here.

 

 

I'm not sure how to take this response. Should we take the entire alleged molestation convo to that thread? If not, what, specifically, have we been doing wrong? I only ask, because I want to stop doing wrong things.

[Shibori]

Maybe it's because my work involves employees subject to all the new background checks and mandatory reporter rules enacted in PA in the wake of the Sandusky scandal, but I think that the key point that is being glossed over by the pro-Duggar comments I've seen elsewhere is that regardless of anyone's personal beliefs, in our legal system, this is not a parent's (or church elder, or rogue police officer's) decision to make. Even if those involved absolutely believed they were doing the right thing, it's a legal matter first and a family one second. Had this happened or come to light in another state or under current laws, I'd hope the outcome would be different, including criminal charges for the "adults" involved.

[Chalby]

 about Josh changing diapers and "taking care of the south end" while she handles the "north end". I know what she said wasn't related to what is going on now, but ewwww........

That was the exact same thought I had, as I just watched that special.

[frenchtoast]

I'm not sure how to take this response. Should we take the entire alleged molestation convo to that thread? If not, what, specifically, have we been doing wrong? I only ask, because I want to stop doing wrong things.

No, it's fine. awaken asked where the crew episode was. So I provided the link. Y'all are good! (Just be careful with speculation please.)

[3girlsforus]

I'm still behind a couple of pages, so I apologize. But, one thing that doesn't make sense to me now that I've had 24 hours to really process it more - how was JB able to take Josh to the police when it first(ish) happened but not have any charges pressed against him? Since the sheriff was a friend was he just super vague about it ("friend, my son is sinning, tell him what happens when you sin" type of thing) or did he really tell the sheriff what happened??? If he did tell him, how did no legal actions happen? I'm asking this out of curiousity, and I'm wondering if anyone knows, as I don't know the laws very well about this type of protocol. If he didn't come out and say what happened, that makes me even more pissed at JB for covering this up until he absolutely HAD to admit to it, once it was too late to do anything. I know Josh is his son, but how can he not want to protect his daughters????

 

 

 

My understanding is that JB didn't take Josh to the authorities until they had already been alerted to it. They spoke to Josh and the family but couldn't press charges because the statute of limitations had expired. JB didn't "turn Josh in" in some kind of sacrificial way as originally reported. 

[awaken]

I cannot see how that would have gone down, Anna and her family being told everything, being ok with it, and moving forward with the courtship.  I don't know how close they were 2 years before getting married, but I can't imagine how the Duggars honestly would have told the Kellers that their son molested multiple sisters, and they were ok with their innocent precious daughter getting married to him.  Then recalling that they were chaperoned, and probably NEVER had an upfront, honest conversation about this, headed straight into their wedding night.  Oh, Anna.  I do see real affection between them, but this is just too much.  I don't feel she was equipped to truly deal with this before marriage and be able to evaluate it and know what the best choice for herself would have been.  

 

She will not leave Josh.  That isn't an option in their world.  Marriage is forever.  For better or worse.  "God hates divorce".  It simply would not happen.  She may simmer with doubt, hopelessness, and distance herself from him emotionally, but she would not get divorced and make her own way in the world with kids.

 

Oh, and that scene with JB and Josh before Josh and Anna's wedding- someone else brought it up.  I remember it so well- the smirking, winking, and passing on of male secrets from father to son.  Now knowing what we know, ICK.  They both knew this secret at the time.  

 

 

[CoolMom]

On one hand, I agree that it's unfair to the girls to divulge their names. On the other hand, a lot of people are probably feeling that the successes, the wealth, and the fame gained by the Duggar family comes at a price. The Duggar's have all benefited for years from their charade of humility and holiness and now it's time to pay their pound of flesh for all that came before this.

 

I decided to come here and post because I cannot reply to all the stuff about this on Facebook in fear of "offending" an aunt whose boyfriend molested me when I was 10 years old.  Then I came across this and I want to address it first. 

 

Those daughters (if it was the daughters) had NO CHOICE about their lives being lived out on television.  Even now that they are grown they probably feel that have no choice based on the patriarchal life they have lead.  These are not young women who lived the life that most girls live.  They should have the same rights as any other victim of sexual assault.   Just because they are on TV does not make them less of a victim.

 

As a victim of molestation my heart breaks for those girls especially if it was the ones named.  I was married 10 years before I told my husband about my molestation; it was on my time table when I was ready.  If the victims are the ones named and they did not share this with their spouse yet, it makes me really sad that they are having to not only relive this in the media but also having to explain it to their husbands on SOMEONE ELSE'S time table. 

[JoanArc]

 

I wonder if the whole wearing clothes to bed started after the molestations.

And the no sheets thing.

 

Does anyone remember from the TWOP days - The TTH has internal surveillance cameras installed. I think they're visible in some old footage from the show. I remember Michelle saying it was so 'so they could see where everybody was' or words to that effect. The cameras weren't for filming but for indoor security. I thought it was just the parents being controlling.Now I think the were used to monitor Josh. Ew. Am I going crazy, or does anyone else remember this?

[NEGirl]

I just read the police reports, God what a sad, sad situation. What Josh did where I live would be considered Sexual Contact and juveniles are prosecuted all the time for it. Boob, Michelle and Josh should all have been brought up on charges.

I said it before, but I do not hink the Seawald's or Derick knew anything about this. I don't believe Ben's parents would have allowed their then 18 year old son to move into that house if they knew the extend of what happened.  Also, I don't think Derick knew much if anything at all. He may have drunk the kool aid, but he was in Nepal and at college when at least some this went on. As for Anna, I would guess she knew the bare miminal and was told it was rumor or not true. She was living in Florida, far from Ark. where it had long been rumored.  I don't think(at least hope) her parents would have never let her marry Josh if they knew the full extend of this.

I feel so sorry for those poor girls and Anna. The girls now have the whole world knowing something I am sure they never wanted exposed. Their prospective marriage possibilities in their circle are done and over.  And poor Anna, she looked distraut in that special. What prospects does she have? She has  three kids 5 and under and a 4th due in two months.  She has no skills or means of support other than the duggars. Her parents live in a trailor and obviously do not have money. She muct be worried sick about her kids and her future.

As many posters have said, an abuser was usually abused themself. That whole family needs to be investigated, the sooner the better.

Edited May 23, 2015 by NEGirl

[Literata]

This was not a teenage mistake. A teenage mistake is when you sneak a cigarette or a beer, or when you say you're going to the library and instead meet up with your boyfriend and make out in his car. This was molestation.

I'm also betting, unfortunately, that it's the tip of the iceberg. Sexual abuse rarely happens in a vacuum. Josh could have been abused. He could have witnessed abuse. Abusive behavior, whether sexual or physical or emotional, is usually learned behavior, often passed from generation to generation. Breaking that cycle can be a challenge.

My fear is that others in the family have been abused, or are being abused. The blame-the-victim culture in that sect gives males a hall pass to treat women any way they want to; the blame will always fall on the "defrauding" female.

Josh needed, and needs, help. I hope the wheels are turning somewhere to get him into therapy, although I know that's not likely. I also hope someone will be able to find his or her way into that house, and to the M-kids as well, to investigate the welfare of the other children.

And I hope, most of all, that someone will be able to get through to those young women and get them into therapy. This can't be prayed away.

[jmt111]

This is probably crazy but is it possible that JD leaked the story? IIRC he has some sort of low position in law enforcement, but he could have had access to the records. Plus, he doesn't live at the TTH, but his living arrangements are mysterious. I always thought he was a doofus, but he didn't seem unkind. He also never seemed close to Josh either.

[Chalby]

There is no way they are "over it". Even victims who eventually get very good counseling do not get "over it".

If this report were about a regular teen in the community, the Duggars would point to television, dress code, and public education as the triggers for the teen's sinful behaviour. Given that Josh did not indulge in any of these behaviours, what on earth are they going to attribute his behaviour to? I certainly hope that any females that may have visited with the Duggars won't get blamed for being seen in their nightgown, or any casual 'at home' behaviour. Who knows with this group?

[mynextmistake]

My understanding is that JB didn't take Josh to the authorities until they had already been alerted to it. They spoke to Josh and the family but couldn't press charges because the statute of limitations had expired. JB didn't "turn Josh in" in some kind of sacrificial way as originally reported.

My understanding of the timeline is that Jim Bob didn't take Josh to the authorities. He took him to a state trooper who was a personal friend and asked him to give Josh a stern talking-to. No official report was made by the Duggars, ever. In 2006, two years after the alleged incidents, a letter describing the abuse was given to Oprah's staff in advance of an interview she was scheduled to conduct with the family. Her staff reported it to Arkansas authorities and they contacted the Duggars, not the other way around. In fact, at first Jim Bob tried to get Josh a lawyer and told the Arkansas police that he would not allow Josh to be interviewed.

So neither Jim Bob nor Michelle ever "turned him in." That's revisionist history by Duggar apologists.

I have been operating under the assumption that Anna didn't know the whole story when she married Josh. He told her something, obviously, but I really doubt it was "I molested five underage girls." I just can't see her continuing with the courtship and marriage under those circumstances. Given her beliefs and the practical implications of being an undereducated single parent of 4, now that they are married, she's kind of stuck, I think.

ETA: Apparently Jim Bob claims that the visit to the trooper was "official" and that the trooper was the one who decided not to pursue it. Given the rest of Jim Bob's actions, I'm not sure I believe a word of this, but even assuming it to be true he and Michelle never followed up to file an official report.

Edited May 23, 2015 by mynextmistake

[BitterApple]

Literata, your comments are why I hope CPS does a full investigation on this family. Tossing Josh aside for a moment, there are still fifteen children at home experiencing the same repressed, rigid lifestyle that Josh did, including a horde of pubescent boys. I'm not trying to throw baseless accusations out there, but there is no denying that the home environment played a role in what went down. At the very least it's unhealthy, at the worst it's criminal.

Edited May 23, 2015 by BitterApple

[MamaR]

I haven't been reading too much online about this, just reading the comments on here. I really think Anna knew nothing about this until very recently. I think Jim Bob would do anything to keep their show and image safe, and would not risk this or any other scandal getting out. I think Anna thinks she has no other option but to 'support' Josh and therefore would recite anything the Duggars want her to say to the media.

[3girlsforus]

My understanding of the timeline is that Jim Bob didn't take Josh to the authorities. He took him to a state trooper who was a personal friend and asked him to give Josh a stern talking-to. No official report was made by the Duggars, ever. In 2006, two years after the alleged incidents, a letter describing the abuse was given to Oprah's staff in advance of an interview she was scheduled to conduct with the family. Her staff reported it to Arkansas authorities and they contacted the Duggars, not the other way around. In fact, at first Jim Bob tried to get Josh a lawyer and told the Arkansas police that he would not allow Josh to be interviewed.

So neither Jim Bob nor Michelle ever "turned him in." That's revisionist history by Duggar apologists.

I have been operating under the assumption that Anna didn't know the whole story when she married Josh. He told her something, obviously, but I really doubt it was "I molested five underage girls." I just can't see her continuing with the courtship and marriage under those circumstances. Given her beliefs and the practical implications of being an undereducated single parent of 4, now that they are married, she's kind of stuck, I think.

 

Right - that is my understanding too. When I said that JB took Josh to authorities I wasn't clear. I meant the time after the Oprah report etc and when all options to avoid were exhausted he went with Josh because the interview was going to happen no matter what. So since he had no choice he took Josh to the authorities. (or maybe they came to the house I guess we don't know) He definitely didn't "turn Josh in" or in any way act willing to sacrifice Josh's freedom or reputation to get justice for his daughters. 

[Saylii]

Ben and Derrick and their families would have known Jessa and Jill were molested. Before they were have agreed to the courtship, the families would have sat down and had the courters confess their sins. Jessa and Jill would not have named names because it's their sins to confess, no one else's. The new families also wouldn't have been told about extent of the abuse.

Anna would have had a similar debriefing with her parents and Josh with his parents, which it sounds like she did. Whether he told her it was his sisters he molested is anyone's guess.

I assume the family friend that wrote the letter would have either been the father of the mysterious other girl or Jim Holt, since they would have had a pre-courtship sinner meeting.

Edited May 23, 2015 by Saylii

[General Days]

My understanding is that JB didn't take Josh to the authorities until they had already been alerted to it. They spoke to Josh and the family but couldn't press charges because the statute of limitations had expired. JB didn't "turn Josh in" in some kind of sacrificial way as originally reported. 

 

If we're to believe the reported stories, that's not the case. If we're to believe the reported stories, JB and the elders took Josh to a Statie, a year after the offenses, and the Statie said there would be follow up, but there never was, and the Duggars didn't mind that (which I can understand). The problem is, the Statie never followed up, and then later was convicted and sentenced 55 years for child porn. In the meantime, the statue of limitations ran out.

 

 

This is probably crazy but is it possible that JD leaked the story? IIRC he has some sort of low position in law enforcement, but he could have had access to the records. Plus, he doesn't live at the TTH, but his living arrangements are mysterious. I always thought he was a doofus, but he didn't seem unkind. He also never seemed close to Josh either.

 

I'm sorry, but the initials "JD" are useless on this show. Think about how many "JD" people there are. To whom were you referring?

[Fuzzysox]

Literata, your comments are why I hope CPS does a full investigation on this family. Tossing Josh aside for a moment, there are still fifteen children at home experiencing the same repressed, rigid lifestyle that Josh did, including a horde of pubescent boys. I'm not trying to throw baseless accusations out there, but there is no denying that the home environment played some role in what went down. At the very least it's unhealthy, at the worst it's criminal.

There has been no mention of DCFS being at the Dugger house today?? I'm shocked if they aren't going to give the family another look. I'm also shocked the family hasn't been stalked at the TTH or about town by media outlets.

[RazzleberryPie]

So does anyone know if they adopted the fugly flowered dresses, leggings under everything, or the Little House on the Prairie high necked night gowns and sleep caps (remember those?) before or after Josh started feeling up people in their sleep?

[fliptopbox]

I'm pretty sure "JD" is referencing John David, Jana's twin.

[Darknight]

There has been no mention of DCFS being at the Dugger house today?? I'm shocked if they aren't going to give the family another look. I'm also shocked the family hasn't been stalked at the TTH or about town by media outlets.

Josh doesn't live with the family. I think it would be hard to find evidence of abuse or neglect. Especially if the kids might not talk.

[General Days]

I'm pretty sure "JD" is referencing John David, Jana's twin.

 

How? They're all JD. (No offense, Turk.)