Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[MargeGunderson]

16 minutes ago, EVS said:

Someone just posted on reddit that the judge ruled that evidence of prior acts will be allowed. The person linked to the judge’s decision so it is confirmed. 

Good. I hope this forces Josh’s hand to take a plea deal. And I wish I could have seen the expression on JB’s face when he heard the decision. 

Good on Jill if she wants to testify. If she doesn’t, I completely understand and support that decision as well. She needs to do whatever is best for her. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by MargeGunderson

[Zella]

Someone quoted this grade-A snark from the judge's ruling on reddit: "Notwithstanding Defendant’s argument that he was uncertain of the nature of the Government’s evidence, he filed his own Motion in Limine (Doc. 72) in which he demonstrated his general knowledge of this evidence and asked the Court to exclude it under Rule 403." 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Zella

[SusanM]

2 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

And I wish I could have seen the expression on JB’s face when he heard the decision. 

I had the same thought.  Finally he's in a situation that he has no control over.  Must suck.  Good.

[hathorlive]

3 minutes ago, Zella said:

Someone quoted this grade-A snark from the judge's ruling on reddit: "Notwithstanding Defendant’s argument that he was uncertain of the nature of the Government’s evidence, he filed his own Motion in Limine (Doc. 72) in which he demonstrated his general knowledge of this evidence and asked the Court to exclude it under Rule 403." 

I'm so glad someone is calling out the Duggars' on their faulty logic.  Now if the judge could just lecture the parents that when your daughters sleep in street clothes, you may have a problem on your hand.  And more leggings isn't the answer.  THIS is why I didn't want a plea deal.  

[Dimi1]

13 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

Jill is a potential prosecution witness.  I doubt that they coerced her to testify, the prosecutors know that forcing one of Josh' victims to testify as a hostile witness against her will would not look good to the jury.  If Jill really objected to testifying, I don't think she'd have been placed on the list.  Perhaps Jill has decided that her relationship with her parents is not worth the price she's had to pay by hiding from what happened and she is no longer willing to participate in the cover-up.  She's been in therapy, I hope she's spent a lot of time discussing Josh' current legal woes as well as the possibility that she could play a role in bringing him to justice.  The statute of limitations ran out on the crimes he committed against Jill and her sisters; maybe Jill wants the opportunity to speak her piece without any spin or coercion from her parents.

Maybe Jill, as a parent, has decided that she needs to do whatever she can to try to prevent her brother from hurting more children.

I hope she feels empowered and strong and righteous.  I am saying a prayer for her tonight and wishing her the best as she does what she needs to do.

I felt empowered and strong and righteous...but...and the big but here..is much like Jill...I was estranged from my family 8 years...and to this day , I do not talk to them much..I even moved on the other side of the country...I also had one other brother that was beaten and abused to the point of needing emergency intervention at about 8 or 9 from a behavioral center - due to of course his behavior and the fact that he was pulling his hair out...one strand at a time...but I digress...for me it was - acknowledging  and then separating...for Jill ...if she acknowledges can she really separate completely and let her own story BE her own story , when you have 3 other sisters with fabricated (most likely) stories of their own??? if she is truthful and honest about what she has experienced at Joshe's "hands"...then what happens when the other girls stick with the story of - it was just curiosity...??? either Jill suppresses and backs off...or they acknowledge fully and move forward...or Jill just sticks to what she knows to be true and completely cuts them out of their life...what we are seeing is narratives of what happened being brought forward filtered through --all kinds of belief systems...Jill being on the witness list is going to shatter the family if she really speaks her truth..which for her sake..I hope she does....

[Rootbeer]

12 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Prosecutors rarely put an abuse survivor on the stand as a hostile witness.  All Jill has to do is starting shaking and crying and the jury would hate the prosecutor.  Jill agreed to this.  I think she probably agreed if the Holt thing didn't work out.  She may not testify but allowing herself to be a witness is a pretty loud clap.   I guess we could be wrong and the prosecutor is forcing her to testify, but I've never seen that happen in these cases before.

Oh, absolutely, I think Jill has expressed a willingness to testify and that is why she is on the list.  I'm just spitballin' that, based on JB's 'testimony' at the prelims, he is seemingly unaware of how things work in the courtroom and might somehow think that Jill had no choice just like JB clearly didn't.

[Zella]

1 minute ago, Rootbeer said:

Oh, absolutely, I think Jill has expressed a willingness to testify and that is why she is on the list.  I'm just spitballin' that, based on JB's 'testimony' at the prelims, he is seemingly unaware of how things work in the courtroom and might somehow think that Jill had no choice just like JB clearly didn't.

I honestly don't think Jim Bob is a very logic-driven person. 

[GeeGolly]

I think something that is lost when discussing Jill is, her truth may be very close to what she has said. Not all who are molested have PTSD or other long lasting issues. I've worked with many clients over many decades and one might be surprised at what some never internalize and at what some do. The event alone is not what determines what causes lasting issues.

[hathorlive]

Just now, Zella said:

I honestly don't think Jim Bob is a very logic-driven person. 

Precisely.  JB is more the type to dictate rather than listen and understand. I'm shocked the defense didn't prep him in basic court room etiquette. 

Should we start the betting pool on sentencing if Josh is found guilty?  I was going with 7 to 9 if the judge was feeling churlish.  But with the admittance of prior acts, I refer back to my many posts saying this is a game changer.  The judge knows he has a contact offender in front of him and he's surrounded by children. I am now cautiously saying 10 to 13 years.

[Cinnabon]

20 minutes ago, Lindsay Loo Hoo said:

After seeing Anna appearing smug and holding his hand, I have no sympathy for her. The only ones I have sympathy for are the children. Fuck you Anna. 

She is pro forced birth, not pro life. The lives of the abused girls in the CP aren’t important to her. 

[EVS]

Also, He rules Bobbye  Holt cannot be considered clergy so she can testify as to what Josh told her. 
 

Mr. Duggar claimed that his wife and Mrs. Holt could be thought of as “joint elders” of the church, simply because they were married to elders and would “help with special things.” The Court rejects this testimony as self-serving, contradictory, and lacking in credibility. 

Also, the judge called out Boob’s selective memory. 

The Court found Mr. Duggar’s selective lapse in memory to be not credible; he was obviously reluctant to testify against his son. In any event, his testimony is not necessary for the Government to introduce Rule 414 evidence at trial; Mrs. Holt’s testimony is sufficient.

 

Edited December 1, 2021 by EVS

[Meow25]

Just now, Cinnabon said:

She is pro forced birth, not pro life. The lives of the abused girls in the CP aren’t important to her. 

By Gothard standards those little babies are possessions anyway.  Women, girls, anything with a vag is useless and only good for one thing.  Why should poor Josh suffer his grandiose future because a few "Eve's" were harmed.  They're only one level up from animals.  I hate these people.  I WANT to SEE JB's face when the golden dick is hauled off to prison.  

[Zella]

3 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Precisely.  JB is more the type to dictate rather than listen and understand. I'm shocked the defense didn't prep him in basic court room etiquette. 

I don't really think we can assume that they didn't try to prepare him. He seems pretty impervious to guidance and advice. They may have spent hours with him trying to get him to act more professionally and he still shit the bed on the stand because nobody puts Jim Bob in the corner in his mind. 

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, ozziemom said:

JB has probably already moved Jill to the “never see again or allow in my house” list just by allowing her name to be listed as a witness. We have seen Meechelle and some of the siblings interacting with the Dillards but this may be not be allowed by JB at all. He is so controlling he can’t possibly allow this very public event, Jill testifying for the prosecution, that he clearly disapproves of, to go unpunished. And what else can he do to Jill at this point but forbid any contact. What a great example of family values and Christianity.

On the slightly brighter side, sometimes a crackdown like this by a power player backfires on them and causes others in the family to re-evaluate whether all their loyalty should go to that power player or whether it's finally time to speak up on behalf of someone else. There's a range of consequences that could come out of this, I think.

You know, in most families there's no such thing as the ability to absolutely forbid adults to have contact with someone......Up to now, JB' and M have been in a very small group of parents who've enjoyed such a powerful hold over every one of their children. But it's possible -- only remotely possible, I suppose -- that this could be the final straw for somebody. 

For Jill there was no obviously satisfying answer to what she should do. There's just an ugly paradox she faces and serious pain, no matter what. Over the course of a lifetime, it seems most people regret more the things they held back from and are gladder about the brave risks they took. And she's taking the risk. I hope this ultimately works out for the better for her. 

Other people that JB and M know seem to hold onto their religion (and even their cult) while being civil to and even sort of friendly with their kids that have done things that fly in the face of Mom's and Dad's ideas. The Kellers, the Vuolos, the Seewalds.......It'll be an ugly measure of the Dugg parents' extreme arrogance and thoughtless tyranny if they refuse to learn anything from parents like that, in the face of this whole mess......Unfortunately, JB seems unlikely to surprise us with any new thinking. 

All along, I've figured that Josh and Anna are living in major delusion about this case and that Meeechelle may be so emotionally wrought by it that she's in a half demented state. But I wondered whether JB might be partly non-delusional and potentially a source of some smidge of reason when it came to talking to Josh about facts and about what he should do.......Monday -- along with some of his paranoid pronouncements lately -- seem to put JB entirely in the delusional category right along with his son, though, more's the pity.  

Edited December 1, 2021 by Churchhoney

[SusanM]

1 minute ago, Zella said:

They may have spent hours with him trying to get him to act more professionally and he still shit the bed on the stand because nobody puts Jim Bob in the corner in his mind. 

Agreed. Unless Smuggar's lawyers are really bad (and wouldn't that be nice) there is no way they didn't at least try to tell JB how to respond appropriately in court.

[GeeGolly]

JB's bitch slap is certainly the highlight of the trial thus far.

[Churchhoney]

39 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

I guess I'm shocked at how much damning information has come out because he wouldn't take a plea.  I knew we'd find things out, but so far it's been seismic in the revelation scale. You just have to wonder what else they are hiding?

The likelihood of this is why I thought JB was fairly likely to be behind the scenes all this time nudging Josh toward taking a plea.......And when he didn't, I thought the same thing @Zella mentioned -- that it was probably Josh's vicious attitude toward everybody-especially-his-family thing coming out, likely in some defiance of JB.......After Monday, though, it seems that JB doesn't even mind a lot of new crap coming out either as he puts hiimself at risk in court  (at the same time as he refuses to talk about selected portions of the old crap, that were already public knowledge.) Wonder if or when they'll look back at this period and regret their super stubbornness and idiotic risk-taking here.  

Edited December 1, 2021 by Churchhoney

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

After Monday, though, it seems that JB doesn't mind a lot of crap coming out either. Doesn't even mind putting himself at risk for more crap by acting like completely jerk in court. 

I am not sure Jim Bob processes things that way. I think in his mind, it's other people who are making him look bad and persecuting him and his family here. And of course that is bullshit--he is making himself look terrible. But I am not sure he has the self-awareness to think of that way. I never really thought of Jim Bob as some sort of mastermind, but I did used to think he had a form of low cunning. But as the years have worn on, I'm not even sure he has that. 

[cereality]

7 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

JB's bitch slap is certainly the highlight of the trial thus far.

This refers to what exactly? That prior act info will be admissible? Or something else? Is JB supposed to testify in court? Have we seen him speak yet? He's the type of witness that is a DISASTER to prep because they know it all and are smug assholes but then when they get on the stand they mess up either bc of their smugness or bc they are so scared $hitless they can't get words out.

[MargeGunderson]

14 minutes ago, EVS said:

The Court rejects this testimony as self-serving, contradictory, and lacking in credibility. 

Three adjectives that describe JB to a T. 

[Boston]

43 minutes ago, Lindsay Loo Hoo said:

After seeing Anna appearing smug and holding his hand, I have no sympathy for her. The only ones I have sympathy for are the children. Fuck you Anna. 

DOUBLE Fuck you Anna

[Rootbeer]

1 minute ago, Zella said:

I am not sure Jim Bob processes things that way. I think in his mind, it's other people who are making him look bad and persecuting him and his family here. And of course that is bullshit--he is making himself look terrible. But I am not sure he has the self-awareness to think of that way. I never really thought of Jim Bob as some sort of mastermind, but I did used to think he had a form of low cunning. But as the years have worn on, I'm not even sure he has that. 

I agree, I think JB has decided that this is all just more trials from the devil and it is everyone else' fault if things don't go his way.  I am sure he is complaining long and loud to everyone in their circle about the judge's smackdown the other day.  How dare he disrespect a fine upstanding Christian like JB?  And, if Josh is convicted, well, it just goes to show how corrupt the government is.

[Zella]

Just now, cereality said:

This refers to what exactly? That prior act info will be admissible? Or something else? Is JB supposed to testify in court? Have we seen him speak yet? He's the type of witness that is a DISASTER to prep because they know it all and are smug assholes but then when they get on the stand they mess up either bc of their smugness or bc they are so scared $hitless they can't get words out.

He testified in a pretrial hearing Monday and made an ass out of himself.

https://people.com/tv/josh-duggar-family-friend-emotional-testimony-court-hearing/

[Churchhoney]

2 minutes ago, Zella said:

I am not sure Jim Bob processes things that way. I think in his mind, it's other people who are making him look bad and persecuting him and his family here. And of course that is bullshit--he is making himself look terrible. But I am not sure he has the self-awareness to think of that way. I never really thought of Jim Bob as some sort of mastermind, but I did used to think he had a form of low cunning. But as the years have worn on, I'm not even sure he has that. 

Yep, his paranoia is clearly of Mt. Everest proportions, although I'm not sure that his hasn't ramped up in the past few years just as the persecution feelings of a lot of other white evangelical men seem to have ramped up as they suspect society is getting away from them more and more. 

 .... A degree of low cunning was what I always thought he had, too.....But this year, especially, is making me think that we were overestimating him even by giving him credit for that.........

He must have a bit of low cunning that operates in grifting and "business" situations, though, or he wouldn't have these millions of dollars to throw around. But it seems that it doesn't go even a millimeter beyond such situations. 

[Snow Fairy]

Regarding Jill, lots of older children now have they own families. Their own children they would want to protect.

I see why Jessa would listen to JB regarding Jill, but why should Josiah, JD, Justin Jinger just cut Jill out of their lives?

Come on kids, grow a pair and man up, your dad shouldn't own you

[galaxygirl76]

Remember when Pest called Jill the family snitch? How you like them apples now Joshy boy.

[cereality]

8 minutes ago, Zella said:

He testified in a pretrial hearing Monday and made an ass out of himself.

https://people.com/tv/josh-duggar-family-friend-emotional-testimony-court-hearing/

Thanks - busy work day so I only skimmed this but hahahahaha JB trying to act as his own lawyer making objections from the witness stand:

"I'm not gonna allow it. Are you gonna allow for that?" Jim Bob asked the judge with his hands raised as the judge reminded him, "If there is [an] objection to be made, someone will make it but it won't be you."

Still, Jim Bob said, "For you guys to use a tabloid to bring it back up is very unprofessional."

The judge offered some sympathy: "Mr. Duggar, I recognize this is perhaps a very unfair position that you're placed in and I appreciate that."

But the judge told him, "This is not a debate."

[Zella]

1 minute ago, cereality said:

Thanks - busy work day so I only skimmed this but hahahahaha JB trying to act as his own lawyer making objections from the witness stand:

"I'm not gonna allow it. Are you gonna allow for that?" Jim Bob asked the judge with his hands raised as the judge reminded him, "If there is [an] objection to be made, someone will make it but it won't be you."

Still, Jim Bob said, "For you guys to use a tabloid to bring it back up is very unprofessional."

The judge offered some sympathy: "Mr. Duggar, I recognize this is perhaps a very unfair position that you're placed in and I appreciate that."

But the judge told him, "This is not a debate."

You could basically steal the whole thing line by line and put it in a sitcom scene. LOL 

[Churchhoney]

12 minutes ago, Snow Fairy said:

Regarding Jill, lots of older children now have they own families. Their own children they would want to protect.

I see why Jessa would listen to JB regarding Jill, but why should Josiah, JD, Justin Jinger just cut Jill out of their lives?

Come on kids, grow a pair and man up, your dad shouldn't own you

I expect fear of losing and zeal to hold onto the good-life stuff they have, like free or nearly free houses, airplanes to fly, the hope they hold of sitting on a special golden throne in heaven and so on. would be their reasons for toeing Daddy's line.

JB's managed to put all his kids in a position where they are probably insecure about being able to make a living if Daddy stopped supplying much or all of that living and even possibly insecure about finding suitable love partners without Daddy's network. None of them seem to have any friends, either, except for their siblings and people from Daddy's network. A helluva lot of them live in houses that, one way or another, belong to Daddy. 

They've been "sheltered" from education, training, social or other community experience with anybody beyond their very small bubble, etc........They've had the evils and dangers of working for anybody else, marrying anybody who isn''t part of their parents' circle, recreating with non-IBLP people on a baseball team or in a class or a choir, etc., drummed into them to an extreme degree. And they've reaped benefits from staying in that bubble -- they're famous and they get fancy hunting and skiing trips and they hardly have to work....  

We're certainly looking at situations that may make some of them want to break ranks. But I'm sure they're all also haunted by what they might have to lose. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Churchhoney

[ozziemom]

5 minutes ago, galaxygirl76 said:

Remember when Pest called Jill the family snitch? How you like them apples now Joshy boy.

Perhaps Jill is the snitch in Bobye Holt’s testimony. 

[coconspirator]

51 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

Oh, absolutely, I think Jill has expressed a willingness to testify and that is why she is on the list.  I'm just spitballin' that, based on JB's 'testimony' at the prelims, he is seemingly unaware of how things work in the courtroom and might somehow think that Jill had no choice just like JB clearly didn't.

What makes sense, re:Jill, is she was the backup plan if Bobbye Holt wasn’t allowed to testify. I initially thought she would testify to verify what Holt says about the abuse of Joy; what makes more sense is she agreed to testify as a witness to that abuse in the event Holt was blocked. I don’t think she’s needed now and won’t be out on the stand (unless she has voiced a strong desire to the prosecutors that she NEEDS this for her own healing. In that case she’ll be the government nuclear weapon in court).

[Panopticon]

18 minutes ago, Snow Fairy said:

Regarding Jill, lots of older children now have they own families. Their own children they would want to protect.

I see why Jessa would listen to JB regarding Jill, but why should Josiah, JD, Justin Jinger just cut Jill out of their lives?

Come on kids, grow a pair and man up, your dad shouldn't own you

Somehow I can see Jessa— who has repeatedly had her life torpedoed by Josh’s golden penis, who once had the guts to threaten to elope, and who married a man whose sisters work outside the home— falling on Jill’s side. Not likely, maybe, but ten years ago it didn’t look likely that Jill would be the big rebel of the nineteen. 
 

Either way, I just hate that Jill is in a position of  not knowing how much of her family of origin will cut her out completely for… telling the truth and getting a child molester out of the community. As strong as she obviously is, that’s a tough place to be.  

[lascuba]

44 minutes ago, Zella said:

I don't really think we can assume that they didn't try to prepare him. He seems pretty impervious to guidance and advice. They may have spent hours with him trying to get him to act more professionally and he still shit the bed on the stand because nobody puts Jim Bob in the corner in his mind. 

I wouldn't be surprised if JB combativeness weren't a deliberate strategy on his part. There are certain factions who see open hostility and disrespect to any authority standing in their way as "manly" and a sign of good leadership. JB could be playing to that crowd.

 

[Zella]

Just now, coconspirator said:

(unless she has voiced a strong desire to the prosecutors that she NEEDS this for her own healing.

I don't think the prosecutors are mercenary or unfeeling people, but at the end of the day, they're going to do what's best for their case. I don't really think Jill expressing a need to be on the stand for her own emotional/mental well-being is going to be what dictates her being on the stand. 

Just now, lascuba said:

I wouldn't be surprised if JB combativeness weren't a deliberate strategy on his part. There are certain factions who see open hostility and disrespect to any authority standing in their way as "manly" and a sign of good leadership. JB could be playing to that crowd.

 

Possibly, but Jim Bob should have probably read the room and realized that the federal judge he was pissing off was the audience he should have been playing to. 

[cereality]

13 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

I expect fear of losing and zeal to hold onto the good-life stuff they have, like free or nearly free houses, airplanes to fly, the hope they hold of sitting on a special golden throne in heaven and so on. would be their reasons for toeing Daddy's line.

JB's managed to put all his kids in a position where they are probably insecure about being able to make a living if Daddy stopped supplying much or all of that living and even possibly insecure about finding suitable love partners without Daddy's network. None of them seem to have any friends, either, except for their siblings and people from Daddy's network. A helluva lot of them live in houses that, one way or another, belong to Daddy. 

They've been "sheltered" from education, training, social or other community experience with anybody beyond their very small bubble, etc........They've had the evils and dangers of working for anybody else, marrying anybody who isn''t part of their parents' circle, recreating with non-IBLP people on a baseball team or in a class or a choir, etc., drummed into them to an extreme degree. And they've reaped benefits from staying in that bubble -- they're famous and they get fancy hunting and skiing trips and they hardly have to work....  

We're certainly looking at situations that may make some of them want to break ranks. But I'm sure they're all also haunted by what they might have to lose. 

Exactly. I don't think Josiah and JD are independent of JB at all. What does Josiah even do for a living - I think it involves used cars and/or rental houses - i.e. things owned by JB. And IDK where he and his wife live now but they started out in a huge property owned by JB that JB wasn't able to rent out/sell at that time; it's possible they don't live in that house anymore but likely still do live someplace else owned by JB.

As for JD sure he SEEMS more independent with his towing business and some real contractor type skills - yet pretty sure the capital for the business came from daddy so if daddy turned on him, he could drive it under + he provides most of his contracting work to daddy's rental properties. And even if he is working in the real world with his contracting skills, pretty sure that doesn't pay for airplanes - pretty sure that's JB's investment, which JD needs as he makes money from that giving lessons. He turns on JB, JB could sell the planes in a second.

Justin and Jing yeah they could side with Jill. Jing lives off her husband's income, not daddy - and honestly how could she NOT side with Jill given that the prior acts involved that line of sisters!? Justin - he lives off his inlaws so he could side with Jill too but he's a LOT younger and my guess is the younger kids were never told what was going on for real when they lived at home except - Josh sinned, it's ok we all do, he's repented; and little girls don't play with/sit with the boys. Like he likely never understood it when he lived there - so he certainly wouldn't have felt it the way an older sister did or even JD/Joe who seemed like they got it and were pissed.

[cereality]

8 minutes ago, lascuba said:

I wouldn't be surprised if JB combativeness weren't a deliberate strategy on his part. There are certain factions who see open hostility and disrespect to any authority standing in their way as "manly" and a sign of good leadership. JB could be playing to that crowd.

 

It was a pre-trial hearing, there is no crowd. It's a hearing that goes through a laundry list of administrative type motions re the conduct of the trial including what will/won't be admissible. There's the defendant + his wife; lawyers for both sides; whatever reporters are in the audience; and the judge/law clerk/court reporter. This isn't a court room drama with a gallery of 1000s watching and even if there is - you are concerned with doing what YOUR counsel wants to convince the 1 audience member that matters in pre trial = the judge who decides the motion.

[MsJamieDornan]

This is interesting.  https://www.the-sun.com/entertainment/4174486/josh-duggar-trial-live-updates-child-pornography-arrest-verdict/

[Quilt Fairy]

I don't see how Jill could be the "backup plan" if Bobye Holt was not allowed to testify.  They're both testifying (presumably) about the prior bad acts, the 2002-2003-2005(?)   molestations.  Jill's status as a victim doesn't make any difference in this.  Depending on the judge's ruling on this line of evidence, they're either both out or both in.  Sounds to me like they're both in, if needs be.

[CandyCaneTree]

I am wondering what bullshit his lawyers are going to use for his appeal? Nothing that they have tried to use so far none of it stuck. 

[Churchhoney]

19 minutes ago, lascuba said:

I wouldn't be surprised if JB combativeness weren't a deliberate strategy on his part. There are certain factions who see open hostility and disrespect to any authority standing in their way as "manly" and a sign of good leadership. JB could be playing to that crowd.

 

That would be JB's crowd -- definitely. I wondered as I read about that absurd hissy fit, whether he was deliberately trying to force them to avoid any further testimony from him. ...Bad enough to talk then. Worse to potentially face even more questions he didn't want to answer during the actual trial.

.And if that was part of his motivation, it apparently worked. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Churchhoney

[cereality]

Damn Derick is there today - per the Sun live blog; sitting in the family section - which is mildly weird if you are opposed to the defendant, you'd sit someplace else. Though I haven't been in court recently, could still have covid rules re who sits where/empty seats etc.

[Trillium]

1 minute ago, CandyCaneTree said:

I am wondering what bullshit his lawyers are going to use for his appeal? Nothing that they have tried to use so far none of it stuck. 

I don’t care as long as they bleed JB dry. 

[Quilt Fairy]

5 minutes ago, MsJamieDornan said:

This is interesting.  https://www.the-sun.com/entertainment/4174486/josh-duggar-trial-live-updates-child-pornography-arrest-verdict/

I was going to discount anything from The Sun since it really is a tabloid that gets its news second hand, but this sounds as if someone is in the courtroom and reporting in real time.  That is directly against the judge's orders.  But however they're doing it, I'm in. 

[hathorlive]

33 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

I expect fear of losing and zeal to hold onto the good-life stuff they have, like free or nearly free houses, airplanes to fly, the hope they hold of sitting on a special golden throne in heaven and so on. would be their reasons for toeing Daddy's line.

JB's managed to put all his kids in a position where they are probably insecure about being able to make a living if Daddy stopped supplying much or all of that living and even possibly insecure about finding suitable love partners without Daddy's network. None of them seem to have any friends, either, except for their siblings and people from Daddy's network. A helluva lot of them live in houses that, one way or another, belong to Daddy. 

They've been "sheltered" from education, training, social or other community experience with anybody beyond their very small bubble, etc........They've had the evils and dangers of working for anybody else, marrying anybody who isn''t part of their parents' circle, recreating with non-IBLP people on a baseball team or in a class or a choir, etc., drummed into them to an extreme degree. And they've reaped benefits from staying in that bubble -- they're famous and they get fancy hunting and skiing trips and they hardly have to work....  

 

But that's the entire point of these religious cults. If you have no education and no real world experience, you are trapped.  They purposefully want them to be dependent and helpless.

[EVS]

7 minutes ago, MsJamieDornan said:

This is interesting.  https://www.the-sun.com/entertainment/4174486/josh-duggar-trial-live-updates-child-pornography-arrest-verdict/

I’m disgusted but not surprised that, according to that reporter, Josh was laughing and joking with the court clerk. 
 

I am a bit surprised that Boob and Michelle were not there but I guess Boob couldn’t risk Michelle hearing the graphic details of the CSAM Josh downloaded. 

[questionfear]

7 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I don't see how Jill could be the "backup plan" if Bobye Holt was not allowed to testify.  They're both testifying (presumably) about the prior bad acts, the 2002-2003-2005(?)   molestations.  Jill's status as a victim doesn't make any difference in this.  Depending on the judge's ruling on this line of evidence, they're either both out or both in.  Sounds to me like they're both in, if needs be.

There were two lines of issues with Bobye Holt-one was "is this discussion of past acts admissible" and the second was "Can Bobye Holt testify or is she seen as clergy". The defense was going with both prongs-it was inadmissible, and if it was admitted, Bobye was bound by confidentiality. 

IF Jill was on the list as a backup, it's because she has no confidentiality issues, so if the prior acts were acceptable but Bobye Holt was not, Jill was free and clear. 

[Zella]

7 minutes ago, MsJamieDornan said:

This is interesting.  https://www.the-sun.com/entertainment/4174486/josh-duggar-trial-live-updates-child-pornography-arrest-verdict/

Thank you! That is interesting. 

10 hours ago, Nysha said:

Will the prosecution use "has someone been downloading child pornography?" as evidence that Sex Pest knew CSAM had been downloaded?

I wanted to quote this because I was wondering the same thing, and the Sun live updates @MsJamieDornan linked indicates that the prosecutors included it as part of their opening statement. So, yeah, I do think they're including it to indicate it was him. I've always wondered who in the world would respond to the news that Homeland Security has a search warrant for you with that. I feel like a more normal response to that would be to wonder why in the world you were being investigated for something terrorism related. 

3 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I was going to discount anything from The Sun since it really is a tabloid that gets its news second hand, but this sounds as if someone is in the courtroom and reporting in real time.  That is directly against the judge's orders.  But however they're doing it, I'm in. 

I was also wondering how they were doing that but definitely going to be following it. 

[Churchhoney]

29 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

But that's the entire point of these religious cults. If you have no education and no real world experience, you are trapped.  They purposefully want them to be dependent and helpless.

Absolutely!

But as far as I know, the Duggs are far more successful in holding a ton of kids hostage like this than most people are.

I think a lot of that's just their good luck in getting the tv show.......I'm pretty sure the money they have and the fame they've been able to offer traps the Duggarlings more than a lot of people are trapped when their parents main or only tool is a stick and a set of religious beliefs......JB and M have have had the assistance of both sticks and plentiful carrots that other people -- especially people with a ton of children -- have never had access to!  

And I think no matter what might happen to make kids think about possibly fatally disagreeing with JB, the continued existence of desirable carrots will be a bar to their breaking with their parents that just the religion alone wouldn't necessarily provide. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Churchhoney

[coconspirator]

15 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I don't see how Jill could be the "backup plan" if Bobye Holt was not allowed to testify.  They're both testifying (presumably) about the prior bad acts, the 2002-2003-2005(?)   molestations.  Jill's status as a victim doesn't make any difference in this.  Depending on the judge's ruling on this line of evidence, they're either both out or both in.  Sounds to me like they're both in, if needs be.

Jill would be able to testify because she isn’t clergy. The past acts are usually admissible in a case like this but Josh’s defense was trying to say Bobbye Holt was clergy and therefore what she heard was confidential. In the end it’s a moot point but the prosecution had to plan for every possibility.

Edited December 1, 2021 by coconspirator

[lascuba]

17 minutes ago, cereality said:

It was a pre-trial hearing, there is no crowd. It's a hearing that goes through a laundry list of administrative type motions re the conduct of the trial including what will/won't be admissible. There's the defendant + his wife; lawyers for both sides; whatever reporters are in the audience; and the judge/law clerk/court reporter. This isn't a court room drama with a gallery of 1000s watching and even if there is - you are concerned with doing what YOUR counsel wants to convince the 1 audience member that matters in pre trial = the judge who decides the motion.

I didn't mean "crowd" literally, just that people will be reading about this, and because he's already famous it's a good bet that more people than is usual for these trials will be reading the details. He's also likely to have also internalized that "defiant machismo" = "real man."