Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Notabug]

6 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

@Salacious Kitty I agree with you, but with a slightly different take. I think Anna has more power than she realizes. I don't think JB/Michelle think Josh is innocent, I don't think they expect Anna to believe it. I think Anna would continue to receive the same level of support from JB has been given so long as she toted the party line, and contributed to the TTH in someway (homeschooling the Lost Girls, chores etc). If Anna had put her foot down and said she was disgusted by Josh and wouldn't live with him any more, so long as she didn't blast that on social media- JB would've supported what she wanted.

Josh has broken HIS vows, he is no longer a provider or a headship. 

But Anna WANTS Josh (for whatever reason), we know she wants him because of how she acted after the birth of Meredith. JB and Michelle are smarter than Anna, they also raised Josh- they know what he is like.

I agree that JB and Michelle believe that Joshua committed the crimes; I think they don't believe that he deserves the punishment, though.  As others have noted, they lump CSAM info the same basket with adult porn and fornication and other non-criminal behaviors.  But, I think that they believe that, because they are God's extra special snowflakes, that this mitigates anything Josh has done and should've been taken into account in his sentencing.  He is repentant and made it right with Jesus and that should've counted for something in their opinion.  They honestly think that, because he believes in the 'right' Jesus and goes to church and has a passel o'kids because they don't use contraception; that this is proof that he is somehow not like other convicted felons.  I don't think they have a problem with Anna, whatever she believes as far as Josh' innocence or guilt; as long as she agrees that his sentence was unfairly harsh.

[Scarlett45]

10 minutes ago, Notabug said:

I agree that JB and Michelle believe that Joshua committed the crimes; I think they don't believe that he deserves the punishment, though.  As others have noted, they lump CSAM info the same basket with adult porn and fornication and other non-criminal behaviors.  But, I think that they believe that, because they are God's extra special snowflakes, that this mitigates anything Josh has done and should've been taken into account in his sentencing.  He is repentant and made it right with Jesus and that should've counted for something in their opinion.  They honestly think that, because he believes in the 'right' Jesus and goes to church and has a passel o'kids because they don't use contraception; that this is proof that he is somehow not like other convicted felons.  I don't think they have a problem with Anna, whatever she believes as far as Josh' innocence or guilt; as long as she agrees that his sentence was unfairly harsh.

Oh I see, I hadn't thought about it that way.

[Snow Fairy]

32 minutes ago, Notabug said:

Even if they were told the full extent, they are Gothardites.  Gothard taught that virtually any sexual 'sin' including molestation and rape, was the fault of the woman.  That evil women, even children, could tempt a man to commit sinful acts.  Therefore, even if they did know (and I think they got a sanitized version from JB and didn't ask any questions); they would be more than happy to have attributed it to the devil working through the girls to tempt Josh-U-a to stray.  Gothard was pretty consistent in his messaging:  it is NEVER the man's fault.

If you know anything about Gothard, you understand why he said that.

But who tempted Josh to download the materials? That was all him, from his head

Edited May 26, 2022 by Snow Fairy

[libgirl2]

2 minutes ago, Snow Fairy said:

But who tempted Josh to download the materials? That was all him, from his head

Those of us who are sensible and don't swallow this pile of s--- way of believing know that. These people don't. Somehow Anna failed him and he had to seek  his pleasure elsewhere. 

[SusanM]

I honestly can't figure Anna out.  There was a time when I had pity for her because I felt that she was trapped and would make changes for herself and her kids but was too intimidated to do anything for herself.  Then I started reading some of the hateful things she has posted and then in terms of what's happening with Josh she seems to determined to believe it was all a conspiracy to take down her godly man.  I mean there comes a point where you have to say "she didn't just drink the kool ade, she made the kool ade".  That's where I am with Anna now,

[cmr2014]

42 minutes ago, Notabug said:

I agree that JB and Michelle believe that Joshua committed the crimes; I think they don't believe that he deserves the punishment, though.  As others have noted, they lump CSAM info the same basket with adult porn and fornication and other non-criminal behaviors.  But, I think that they believe that, because they are God's extra special snowflakes, that this mitigates anything Josh has done and should've been taken into account in his sentencing.  He is repentant and made it right with Jesus and that should've counted for something in their opinion.  They honestly think that, because he believes in the 'right' Jesus and goes to church and has a passel o'kids because they don't use contraception; that this is proof that he is somehow not like other convicted felons.  I don't think they have a problem with Anna, whatever she believes as far as Josh' innocence or guilt; as long as she agrees that his sentence was unfairly harsh.

I think Anna believes that Joshua was framed by the evil government and is being persecuted because he's a Christian.

I think that JB thinks that Joshua did the crime, but that it's a "sin" not a "crime" and should be dealt with within the religious community (e.g. by him).

I think J'chelle tries very hard not to think of it at all . . .

[libgirl2]

Does anyone know or was it brought up already, if the M kids can go along to visit him in prison? 

[Lady Whistleup]

Jase Duggar's statement. 

You can tell how much pain Josh has caused his siblings. 

[SusanM]

Interesting that there has been a public acknowledgement by at least one Duggar that Josh did the crime and should do the time.  I appreciated in this statement that he asked god to help Josh, he didn't say god had already forgiven him so it's all good.

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Jase Duggar's statement. 

You can tell how much pain Josh has caused his siblings. 

That is a fair statement. Josh has hurt a lot of people, and he has lived a hypocritical life. Forgiveness does not mean a life without consequences, it does not mean a pardon. I think Jason's statement was genuine. 

I do not have any experience with this type of circumstance, but I do know how it feels to have someone you looked up to as a child, and longed to emulate, DEEPLY disappoint and hurt you. I cannot imagine how Jason feels as a younger brother that may have looked up to and trusted Josh, learn these awful things about him. And to reconcile that with loving him.

If Josh has two ounces of humanity in him (not saying he does), he would be apologizing to his family for what his choices have done to them, and spend the rest of his life trying to make things right for them and of course victims of CSAM. 

[libgirl2]

Just now, Scarlett45 said:

That is a fair statement. Josh has hurt a lot of people, and he has lived a hypocritical life. Forgiveness does not mean a life without consequences, it does not mean a pardon. I think Jason's statement was genuine. 

I do not have any experience with this type of circumstance, but I do know how it feels to have someone you looked up to as a child, and longed to emulate, DEEPLY disappoint and hurt you. I cannot imagine how Jason feels as a younger brother that may have looked up to and trusted Josh, learn these awful things about him. And to reconcile that with loving him.

If Josh has two ounces of humanity in him (not saying he does), he would be apologizing to his family for what his choices have done to them, and spend the rest of his life trying to make things right for them and of course victims of CSAM. 

I don't think he has an ounce of humanity in him, but I hope he does for the sake of his family. He should be apologizing but in his mind and what he professes, he is not guilty, yet I can see that his family believes he is. 

[GeeGolly]

What a mature statement from Jason. I'm going to guess most, if not all, of his siblings feel the same way - to differing degrees.

I think JB & M likely feel similar, but wanted Josh to receive 5 years.

Anna is just not ready to believe Josh is guilty. This, IMO is not a Fundy thing. I see it all the time with clients in various situations. She may or may not get there.

[Zella]

I don't think Josh will ever apologize because I don't think he cares how much he hurt his family. He wouldn't have dragged them through the trial if he cared. I think the only person he truly feels sorry for is himself.

[Minivanessa]

4 minutes ago, SusanM said:

Interesting that there has been a public acknowledgement by at least one Duggar that Josh did the crime and should do the time.  I appreciated in this statement that he asked god to help Josh, he didn't say god had already forgiven him so it's all good.

Yes. BTW Jill and Derick posted a statement on their blog: https://www.dillardfamily.com/2022/05/our-response-to-joshs-sentencing/ which we've been discussing over on that topic. It wasn't surprising to me - although it was heartening - that they flat out said Josh had avoided consequences for his behavior and hope that years in prison may make him safe to be in society again. Not surprised as they are long gone from the TTH and JB's sphere of control.

TBH I was surprised by the strength of this statement from Jason, who's younger and hasn't broken with his parents. Good for him. I am sorry that Josh has put a stain on the family name and caused so much pain to innocent family members. 

[js9548]

Do Federal prisons allow in person visitation? Does it depend on which prison he is assigned?  I got the impression from reading this site that the jail Josh is currently at, only allows remote visitation. Is that the case at the Federal level because of Covid?

[Absolom]

The federal system at least at one of the prisons the judge recommended allows in person visits, but it's no touching with a plexiglass divider between inmate and two visitors (possible third is a lap child).  The jail is still listing remote only visits. 

[Minivanessa]

@GeeGolly posted as I was writing this with info on one of the prisons the judge recommended.

For an overview, the Federal Bureau of Prisons has this information about their operational modifications for COVID, which looks complicated. In-person visitation is permitted, depending on the operational status of the facility under that rating system. Here's the page: https://www.bop.gov/coronavirus/covid19_modified_operations_guide.jsp

Overview of federal prison visitation is here: https://www.bop.gov/inmates/visiting.jsp

[Lady Whistleup]

I don't think Josh cares about the pain he's caused his family. I think he's a sociopath. If he cared, he wouldn't have caused this much pain in the first place.

[GeeGolly]

How many of y'all think Josh will not reoffend after his stint in prison?

[libgirl2]

7 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

How many of y'all think Josh will not reoffend after his stint in prison?

I do 

[SusanM]

9 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

How many of y'all think Josh will not reoffend after his stint in prison?

Based on his downward spiral I hate to even think about what his next offense could be but I am pretty sure there will be something.

[quarks]

5 hours ago, Tdoc72 said:

Anyone know if these type of appeals work out or not?  

For federal appeals, rarely.

And in Josh's particular case, some of the stuff he's appealing - like the "the Homeland Security secretary wasn't the legal Homeland Security secretary!" is, to put it kindly, ridiculous. (I was going to add, "in my opinion," but this appears to be the nearly universal opinion of a number of attorneys and Judge Brooks, so I am sticking with "ridiculous.") So ridiculous that a federal appeals court is probably going to ignore it.

The only possibly maybe possible argument he might maybe possibly have is his argument that the original computer search was a violation of his Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights, and thus illegal, and since the search warrant for the car lot was based on evidence gathered from that search, the search warrant was also illegal and thus has to be thrown out, along with all the evidence gathered from that search - which pretty much is the evidence. However, Judge Brooks did take his time researching that argument and said yeah, no, which doesn't bode well for the appeal.

19 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I don't think Josh cares about the pain he's caused his family. I think he's a sociopath. If he cared, he wouldn't have caused this much pain in the first place.

If Josh cared about his family at all, he would have accepted a plea bargain last year, saving all of them time, money and stress. 

[Scarlett45]

7 minutes ago, quarks said:

If Josh cared about his family at all, he would have accepted a plea bargain last year, saving all of them time, money and stress. 

I can agree with this. But I think Josh was so smug he really thought he would be acquitted. 
 

He’s going to have a lot of time to think in prison, without any of the “distractions” of the free world (like junk food, the internet etc). 
 

I do think (and have said before) that I think Josh has a tiny amount of affection for Michelle has his mother (that comes from a genuine place). If he says “sorry” to anyone it would be her. 

[libgirl2]

9 minutes ago, quarks said:

For federal appeals, rarely.

And in Josh's particular case, some of the stuff he's appealing - like the "the Homeland Security secretary wasn't the legal Homeland Security secretary!" is, to put it kindly, ridiculous. (I was going to add, "in my opinion," but this appears to be the nearly universal opinion of a number of attorneys and Judge Brooks, so I am sticking with "ridiculous.") So ridiculous that a federal appeals court is probably going to ignore it.

The only possibly maybe possible argument he might maybe possibly have is his argument that the original computer search was a violation of his Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights, and thus illegal, and since the search warrant for the car lot was based on evidence gathered from that search, the search warrant was also illegal and thus has to be thrown out, along with all the evidence gathered from that search - which pretty much is the evidence. However, Judge Brooks did take his time researching that argument and said yeah, no, which doesn't bode well for the appeal.

If Josh cared about his family at all, he would have accepted a plea bargain last year, saving all of them time, money and stress. 

And that is why I don't think he will ever change. There are people out there with sick urges like him, some of them truly want to change are perhaps even disgusted with it, but can't help what they are and can't seem to stop. 

[Tikichick]

49 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

How many of y'all think Josh will not reoffend after his stint in prison?

39 minutes ago, SusanM said:

Based on his downward spiral I hate to even think about what his next offense could be but I am pretty sure there will be something.

I literally feel sick thinking about it.

[Future Cat Lady]

Maybe I’m wrong, but it’s my understanding that prison doesn’t help sex offenders. If you have these urges, prison is not going to stop them. But I’m not a shrink and I don’t know what Josh’s issues are. If he goes to therapy while in prison, it might help him but it might also not. 

[libgirl2]

1 minute ago, Future Cat Lady said:

Maybe I’m wrong, but it’s my understanding that prison doesn’t help sex offenders. If you have these urges, prison is not going to stop them. But I’m not a shrink and I don’t know what Josh’s issues are. If he goes to therapy while in prison, it might help him but it might also not. 

Therapy might help him control these urges but I don't think they will ever go away. And I don't think he is going to do therapy anyway. 

[Rabbittron]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

How many of y'all think Josh will not reoffend after his stint in prison?

He will reoffend 5 minutes after he gets out of prison. 

[Tikichick]

17 minutes ago, Future Cat Lady said:

Maybe I’m wrong, but it’s my understanding that prison doesn’t help sex offenders. If you have these urges, prison is not going to stop them. But I’m not a shrink and I don’t know what Josh’s issues are. If he goes to therapy while in prison, it might help him but it might also not. 

Punishment doesn't do anything to cure the compulsions, but it is necessary for the protection of society.   Apparently some offenders can be helped, but it requires serious motivation on their part -- and apparently is dependent upon what predicates their drive in the first place. 

14 minutes ago, Rabbittron said:

He will reoffend 5 minutes after he gets out of prison. 

Unfortunately he will probably emerge a more highly skilled predator.  If that isn't terrifying I don't know what is.   Many of them over time become very disciplined about playing the long game when it comes to achieving their goals.   I literally felt my insides going to jelly earlier when I read upthread that one of the potential locations he may be incarcerated in is predominantly populated by sex offenders.   I cannot wrap my brain around the idea of dozens of them living in daily proximity,, exchanging tips.    

[Tuxcat]

7 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

 I cannot wrap my brain around the idea of dozens of them living in daily proximity,, exchanging tips.    

Which likely happened when Josh went away for the sex/porn addiction treatment before. Didnt he attend some "rehab center" for a long time. Am sure there was a ton of exchanging and tips on ways to evade covenant eyes.

[Future Cat Lady]

16 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Punishment doesn't do anything to cure the compulsions, but it is necessary for the protection of society.   Apparently some offenders can be helped, but it requires serious motivation on their part -- and apparently is dependent upon what predicates their drive in the first place. 

I was not saying that he should not be locked up but prison doesn't solve anything. Sex offenders are not in prison forever. They come back to society and often reoffend.

[BradandJanet]

Didn't Josh's rehab consist of painting a guy's barn or doing some kind of physical labor between prayer sessions? I don't think Josh was ever in any kind of professional  treatment program. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by BradandJanet

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Future Cat Lady said:

I was not saying that he should not be locked up but prison doesn't solve anything. Sex offenders are not in prison forever. They come back to society and often reoffend.

I agree with you.   This is an area where we really need to carefully look at how we punish the offenders and how we address their ability to reoffend, because both need to happen for many reasons.

[Notabug]

5 minutes ago, BradandJanet said:

Didn't Josh's rehab consisted of painting a guy's barn or doing some kind of physical labor between prayer sessions? I don't think Josh was ever in any kind of professional  treatment program. 

After the Ashley Madison scandal, he was sent to some Christian program for sex addicts or something.  It was someplace in the midwest as I recall and he spent several months living there.  Lots of praying for Jesus to help them resist temptation; not sure there were any certified counselors there.  We referred to it as Jesus jail.

ETA: It was Reformer's Unanimous in Rockford, Illinois and he was supposedly treated for addiction to porn.

https://rockfordru.org/

Edited May 26, 2022 by Notabug

[libgirl2]

2 minutes ago, BradandJanet said:

Didn't Josh's rehab consisted of painting a guy's barn or doing some kind of physical labor between prayer sessions? I don't think Josh was ever in any kind of professional  treatment program. 

That was it, I believe we call it Jesus jail. 

[Salacious Kitty]

13 minutes ago, Notabug said:

After the Ashley Madison scandal, he was sent to some Christian program for sex addicts or something.  It was someplace in the midwest as I recall and he spent several months living there.  Lots of praying for Jesus to help them resist temptation; not sure there were any certified counselors there.  We referred to it as Jesus jail.

ETA: It was Reformer's Unanimous in Rockford, Illinois and he was supposedly treated for addiction to porn.

https://rockfordru.org/

There are no professional counselors at RU, at least there weren't at the time FF was there. 

[GeeGolly]

I think Josh possibly has antisocial personality disorder and as a rule personalities disorders don't respond to treatment as well as other mental health disorders. I certainly think Josh should take advantage of any treatment offered while he's in prison, but I wouldn't bet the farm he would see any improvement.

Even in youth, parents are rarely are the cause of youthful offenses like Josh's and treatment, again, isn't that effective, if effective at all. Its sad to say there is a very (thankfully) small percentage of the human population that are bad seeds. Their brains are biologically different. These folks usually end up as serial killers, sexual predators, con men and I suppose pedophiles could be included, though they are different.

That's not to say we should give up on these folks. Its just to say successful outcomes are few and far between.

Even Josh's lawyers knew this. They know he'll be looking at legal porn as soon as he's out and will move onto deviant porn as soon as he thinks he can get away with it.

[laurakaye]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

I can agree with this. But I think Josh was so smug he really thought he would be acquitted. 

That smugness was born and bred into him by his parents, who continually swept his "curiosity" under the rug and continued to parade him around as the Golden Fundie Prince from that famous tv family.  Not saying Josh couldn't have grown up to do deplorable things no matter who he was, but maybe if Jim Bob and Michelle had not looked the other way when he molested his own sisters, he'd have either gotten serious help or gotten caught and disciplined much earlier.  If FF wasn't even seriously punished for attacking members of his own family under his parents' roof, then it's no wonder he thought he was untouchable.

[libgirl2]

11 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

That smugness was born and bred into him by his parents, who continually swept his "curiosity" under the rug and continued to parade him around as the Golden Fundie Prince from that famous tv family.  Not saying Josh couldn't have grown up to do deplorable things no matter who he was, but maybe if Jim Bob and Michelle had not looked the other way when he molested his own sisters, he'd have either gotten serious help or gotten caught and disciplined much earlier.  If FF wasn't even seriously punished for attacking members of his own family under his parents' roof, then it's no wonder he thought he was untouchable.

He did face punishment that they thought was appropriate and might scare someone else straight, but not him. He just went along with it, said the right words and bided his time. Just like he is going to do now. If he would have showed remorse, took a plea deal, made a statement in court... something that showed he knows he did wrong. 

[GeeGolly]

7 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

He did face punishment that they thought was appropriate and might scare someone else straight, but not him. He just went along with it, said the right words and bided his time. Just like he is going to do now. If he would have showed remorse, took a plea deal, made a statement in court... something that showed he knows he did wrong. 

I agree. For most kids Josh's punishment would have felt very big, very severe at his age then. Even his time in Jesus Jail wasn't too different to what drug rehabs look like. But I don't think any amount of treatment and/or punishment way back when, or now, will show any true improvements.

[lovesnark]

43 minutes ago, BradandJanet said:

Didn't Josh's rehab consisted of painting a guy's barn or doing some kind of physical labor between prayer sessions? I don't think Josh was ever in any kind of professional  treatment program. 

I think that's what happened when he molested his sisters and the friend. When the Ashley Madison scandal broke, I believe he went to some fundie 'rehab' for porn and sex. He's never had any actual therapy, just the fundie 'pray it away' type.

[Absolom]

The Reformer program is generalized addiction.  There was nothing specific to Josh's issues.  Most people are there for drugs or alcohol.  Josh went because of "porn."  It's a bunch of labor and Jesusy meetings.  The only good it seemed to do Josh was he dropped some weight.  

[Ms Norman Maine]

Longtime lurker, first-time poster. IMO Josh’s gross character is both nature and nurture. His parents aren’t solely to blame but Josh could not have been brought up by two more enabling people when it comes to shaping his personality.

 I’m a bit torn about Anna. I grew up in the South and attended Southern Baptist churches during my girlhood, though they were garden/country club not snakehandlin’. Who knows how Anna would have evolved if she had not been brought up in such restrictive environment.

ii says this for a couple of reasons. When George Floyd was murdered Anna posted a empathetic comment. There was no “Well it’s sad he died but it was really his fault”. Nope, just a note about the pain his family must feel.

Also, though Anna shouldn’t be homeschooling as she has no real teaching experience, IMO she takes excellent care of her kids. At least in photos they’re always clean, their clothes fit, hair is brushed and the girl’s have theirs fixed in complex styles. She might have help from the younger J girls but considering how THEY look I’m pretty sure it’s Anna in charge f clothes and hair. Also her house looks clean and it seems as if she does her best to make the warehouse look as homey and attractive as possible.

And I feel sorry for her because deep down I’m pretty sure she knows Josh really doesn’t love her, he would have never picked her if not forced to choose a bride quickly. Josh’s dream woman looked like someone who appears on Fox News and would have helped him up the political ladder.

On the other hand, she needs to put her kids first. But then she has no training and if she divorced Josh she might fear Jim Blob would disown her and not support her and the kids.

My feelings about Josh are not complicated. He was born a little turd and grew up to be a big POS.

[BigBingerBro]

I still would like to know the reasoning behind them moving into the warehouse annex.  Was is a move to ensure that if they owed a home it could not be taken from them?

[libgirl2]

4 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

I still would like to know the reasoning behind them moving into the warehouse annex.  Was is a move to ensure that if they owed a home it could not be taken from them?

I always thought it was so JB could keep an eye of him and maybe to provide some kind of support for Anna after all that happened. 

[Ljohnson1987]

Will Josh have to vet his children's future partners from prison? 

[Notabug]

7 minutes ago, Ljohnson1987 said:

Will Josh have to vet his children's future partners from prison? 

Well, we cannot expect Anna, a mere woman, to do it herself.  For that matter, her taste in spouses is a little suspect.  I suppose JB might serve in his place, just like the first runner up to Miss America.

[YupItsMe]

I saw it reported somewhere that Josh signaled “I love you” to Anna (sign language, I suppose) in the courtroom. Was it ever mentioned how Anna reacted or if she responded?

[Readalot]

34 minutes ago, YupItsMe said:

I saw it reported somewhere that Josh signaled “I love you” to Anna (sign language, I suppose) in the courtroom. Was it ever mentioned how Anna reacted or if she responded?

I read she did the same back to Convicted Josh. 

[ALittleShelfish]

3 hours ago, Rabbittron said:

He will reoffend 5 minutes after he gets out of prison. 

As soon as he hops in the car, if not on the walk TO the car, he's gonna ask to borrow someone's phone "just to check something real quick".  I hope by then technology has advanced enough that facial recognition lock screens will see his mug and flash a screen that says "NO SIR, NO YOU MAY NOT CHECK ANYTHING REAL QUICK. GOOD BYE."