Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Churchhoney]

13 hours ago, Natalie68 said:

I just googles this: In the federal system, prisoners who, in the judgment of the Bureau of Prisons, have exhibited "exemplary compliance with institutional disciplinary regulations" can get up to 54 days per year off their sentences.

That's the general rule. But there's a big list of offenses to which that doesn't apply, though. (of course, in typical big-bureaucracy fashion, you can't so easily find that list!!)

And child-related sex offenses, including pornography, are one category of offenses that are ineligible for the good-time credits. 

 

[floridamom]

I can't believe that Michelle used the word "purposed" in her letter to a federal judge.

[SMama]

36 minutes ago, floridamom said:

I can't believe that Michelle used the word "purposed" in her letter to a federal judge.

It’s so ingrained in her. The same as tender heart, diligent, debt free, and other Gothard speak.

[sagittarius sue]

20 hours ago, hathorlive said:

These guys have laid a brilliant trap for Josh.  I thought Bobyeeeee's testimony was to influence the jury that Josh was a perv.  Now I realize that they were laying the groundwork for the enhancements. Excellent writing, excellent examples of case law.  Their argument is powerful and undercuts everything that Josh's attorneys are trying to say.   And what's beautiful is that are using the Duggar's own actions and words to get Josh a longer sentence.

I've been thinking the same.  The smug attitude that Josh has always displayed, the idea that he is above and not responsible for anything is working against him.  If he were a true Christian he would be contrite, repent of his sins before the trial and received a shorter sentence.  Instead he will probably receive an enhanced sentence.  "Hoist with his own petard!"

[SusanM]

23 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

How anyone could think that a judge would respond to this bit of smug, self-satisfied cluelessness with anything but a hammer, I don't know.

What I was wondering about was if Smuggar's lawyers see these letters before they go to the judge because if they do this seems to indicate to me that either Smuggar's lawyers hate him and want him to go to prison for life or else they were never as good as they were purported to be. 

[Minivanessa]

21 minutes ago, SusanM said:

What I was wondering about was if Smuggar's lawyers see these letters before they go to the judge because if they do this seems to indicate to me that either Smuggar's lawyers hate him and want him to go to prison for life or else they were never as good as they were purported to be. 

I believe the defense lawyers filed the letters with the court along with their sentencing memo. I'm sure that defense counsel reviewed those letters with their client in advance, and I would be surprised if they didn't offer their opinion and advice as to how effective each letter would be. However, if their client wanted a support letter filed, the lawyers are required to file them. Somewhere upthread I pointed out that's part of their duty to advocate for their client. 

The flipside is that after Josh has been cooling his heels in the federal lockup for awhile, he won't be able to say, "My lawyers were given AWESOME letters supporting leniency in sentencing, but they refused to file them with the court, and therefore I got a harsher sentence. If only the judge had seen those letters, I'm sure I'd be a free man by now!" 

ETA: I suppose people can send "character reference" letters directly to the court - and defense counsel might not have seen those -  but I know that the defense filed "numerous" support letters with their sentencing memo. The memo didn't list them but did quote from a few of them.

Edited May 14, 2022 by Jeeves

[merylinkid]

15 hours ago, SMama said:

Someone on FJ posted that the FF administered a website to collect funds for Mrs. Clark. If there’s any truth to that the money was not coming from the FF. It was reported the only vehicle on the FF’s name was the old RV. If he couldn’t afford a car how would he give a $2000 monthly stipend for years? 

this makes sense.   The church decides to collect funds for a widow, as they do.   They need someone with tech experience to run the website so Josh gets the job (even though he is apparently too dumb to understand the internet).   He sets up the direct deposit into the widow's bank account.   In Duggar World this becomes JOSH supports the poor widow out of his own money.    

This would also explain why the widow herself didn't write a letter.   JOSH didn't give her money, all the people donating through the website did.

[GeeGolly]

If you think about it, these are perfectly normal character references for their world. More typical references would be about education, work, family and benefits to the community. But IMO, even the most truthful glowing mainstream reference wouldn't make a shit of difference with charges like these.

FF's crime isn't an unintentional murder, tax fraud, bribing college officials, etc. His crime is downloading CSA. His history shows an unhealthy interest in sex. What's the saying ... you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.

[Rootbeer]

17 hours ago, Albanyguy said:

p contractions that are coming a minute apart? At that point, isn't the baby coming, no matter what?

 

I know a little bit about childbirth, having delivered maybe 6000 kids in my day.  No, treating diarrhea with an over the counter medication does not stop labor.  However, when a pregnant woman is sick, particularly when she has a GI issue, she will often have a lot of Braxton-Hicks or false labor type contractions. These can be painful, especially in the setting of a GI problem like diarrhea.  Giving her something to slow down the diarrhea would also help calm down the uterus and slow down the Braxton-Hicks contractions.  However, this would only work if she was having false labor and her cervix wasn't changing which was probably ruled out during her hospital visit where they apparently installed thick glass walls around her bed just for her because, in 40+ years, I've never seen them anywhere else,

[Miss Fabulous]

I wouldn’t be surprised if Michelle and Anna didn’t even write those letters and only signed them (I’m looking at you Pimp-Bob)

Edited May 15, 2022 by Miss Fabulous

[graefin]

2 hours ago, floridamom said:

I can't believe that Michelle used the word "purposed" in her letter to a federal judge.

I can. She's been so insulated in the cult for so long that she's long ago lost any sense of what's "normal" in the outside world, or how she might appear to others. In other words, she has a complete lack of self-awareness. Her way of being is the only way of being, and she doesn't really temper that based on her audience, save the really obvious taboos like corporal punishment (which they used to have mention of on their website before they realized--or were told by TLC or their PR people--it was too controversial so they scrubbed any mention of it).

I think there's lots of evidence she doesn't experience emotions like the rest of us do or have a sense of appropriate behavior based on the situation at hand. One example that comes to mind is when Jordyn got her head stuck between a set of railings at the big house (it was on that spiral staircase they have leading upstairs that seems to be tucked in a corner near the bedrooms).

While JB is working to try to free her, Michelle is standing there laughing like a maniac, while everyone else (including the other children) bears a serious expression, and at one point even JB says, "it's not funny" (which Michelle pays no attention to). It's like she just doesn't have an innate sense that this is a serious situation that merits a serious response, so her go-to emotion is cheerful silliness, like a 5-year-old. It's quite chilling, actually.

[Zella]

9 hours ago, all fall down said:

I think it was along the lines of "Josh is so polite, Josh is so considerate, and loving and kind, etc, etc, etc" and the judge could see through that and think "he wasn't very considerate to his family when choosing to commit these crimes", and the letters were all quite over the top when seen together.

I'm also thinking constantly talking about him being around children in light of the crimes he's been convicted of is not a good look. I'm not saying that as speculation he has abused additional people, but it's a very uncomfortable juxtaposition that I don't think will sit well with someone tasked with deciding how many years in prison Josh needs, and I think the Duggars are likely completely oblivious to it. 

Edited May 14, 2022 by Zella

[Cinnabon]

5 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Its been pretty apparent Jessa reads here. I wonder if she freely talks about the FF's conviction with the family, or if the topic is too touchy. Jessa, Derick and Amy certainly alter what they put out on SM due to public opinion and I'm curious how much feedback Jessa gives JB & M.

I've been thinking about this because I wonder if the Duggar 18 are publicly done with Josh or if we should expect statements upon his sentencing.  

Jessa makes me angrier than most with her stance that all pornography is the same.  No Jessa, adult pornography is consensual and there’s nothing wrong with enjoying it, but CP is abuse, rape, and  torture of children.

[MsJamieDornan]

5 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Its been pretty apparent Jessa reads here

I highly doubt it.

[Cinnabon]

2 hours ago, merylinkid said:

this makes sense.   The church decides to collect funds for a widow, as they do.   They need someone with tech experience to run the website so Josh gets the job (even though he is apparently too dumb to understand the internet).   He sets up the direct deposit into the widow's bank account.   In Duggar World this becomes JOSH supports the poor widow out of his own money.    

This would also explain why the widow herself didn't write a letter.   JOSH didn't give her money, all the people donating through the website did.

What church did Josh attend though?

[Rabbittron]

I can't wait until FF gets sentenced and then PEOPLE magazine will do a cover story. 

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

What church did Josh attend though?

The church of the tater tot tinker toy house.  A independent Southern Baptist church. 

[emmawoodhouse]

Amy is on a tear.  From Twitter:

"Dear Anna, How can you call your husband loyal and faithful? Did you forget his Ashley Madison account? Danica Dillon? Did you forget he has had a huge porn addiction for years? No loving, honest, committed husband would ever disrespect their wife like that."

[Rabbittron]

2 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Amy is on a tear.  From Twitter:

"Dear Anna, How can you call your husband loyal and faithful? Did you forget his Ashley Madison account? Danica Dillon? Did you forget he has had a huge porn addiction for years? No loving, honest, committed husband would ever disrespect their wife like that."

Amy's answer at least it wasn't CSAM.

[Snow Fairy]

I am not familiar with your legal system, but do I read correctly that the 5 year in jail is a minimum he would get? 

[SMama]

6 minutes ago, Snow Fairy said:

I am not familiar with your legal system, but do I read correctly that the 5 year in jail is a minimum he would get? 

Yes, the least he can get is 5 years. Fingers crossed for enhancements. I watched Emily Baker’s video last night for the first time. She’s certain 20 years is just not going to happen. Her educated guess is 8-12. 

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Amy is on a tear.  From Twitter:

"Dear Anna, How can you call your husband loyal and faithful? Did you forget his Ashley Madison account? Danica Dillon? Did you forget he has had a huge porn addiction for years? No loving, honest, committed husband would ever disrespect their wife like that."

Who is that rant benefitting? Its certainly not benefitting Anna. Its not benefitting Jill or Joy or the rest of her cousins. Its not benefitting any women struggling to get out of unhealthy relationships.

Amy thinks it gives her points with public opinion. She thinks any Duggar friend or family who hates Anna, Josh, JB & M must be a good Duggar friend or a good Duggar. She wants to be a publicly loved Duggar.

I'm not saying what Amy tweeted is not true, or that she should support Anna or any Duggar, but what I am saying is she should shut the fuck up. Or if she must say it, say it privately to Anna. Call her. Text her. Write her a letter. Just stop trying to win points by being an asshole.

Edited May 14, 2022 by GeeGolly

[Churchhoney]

2 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Amy is on a tear.  From Twitter:

"Dear Anna, How can you call your husband loyal and faithful? Did you forget his Ashley Madison account? Danica Dillon? Did you forget he has had a huge porn addiction for years? No loving, honest, committed husband would ever disrespect their wife like that."

Ah, yes. More support for the proposition that her longtime nickname is SO well deserved -- "Famy" 

Unfortunately, her publicity tactics may still kind of work for her as long as the tabs keep wanting to write about this. There aren't many potential sources they can portray as "insiders," most likely. 

An excellent side benefit of the Duggs slowly fading from the radar will be Famy doing likewise. ,,,,Eventually. 

Edited May 14, 2022 by Churchhoney

[emmawoodhouse]

She just posted another one. She's really milking this for all it's worth.

[Tuxcat]

58 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Who is that rant benefitting? Its certainly not benefitting Anna. Its not benefitting Jill or Joy or the rest of her cousins. Its not benefitting any women struggling to get out of unhealthy relationships.

Amy thinks it gives her points with public opinion. She thinks any Duggar friend or family who hates Anna, Josh, JB & M must be a good Duggar friend or a good Duggar. She wants to be a publicly loved Duggar.

I'm not saying what Amy tweeted is not true, or that she should support Anna or any Duggar, but what I am saying is she should shut the fuck up. Or if she must say it, say it privately to Anna. Call her. Text her. Write her a letter. Just stop trying to win points by being an asshole.

Recall she said in one of her IG  lives that "God is using her has a chosen vessel." She has been chosen to give "voice to the voiceless."

Somehow I don't think this is what God had in mind. 

[GeeGolly]

Amy is ranting on Twitter, but in an IG story she says she cried all morning and is at a loss for words. Sure Amy, sure.

[floridamom]

Anna states in her letter to the judge that she is dependent on Josh financially, emotionally and just about for everything. I believe (and hope) that the judge will read this and advise Anna to get a J.O.B. He may suggest she apply in the local public school system as a teacher's aide in a PreK class and while she's at it, she register all of her school aged children there too. They would receive a better, structured education, learn time management skills, qualify for free breakfast and lunch 5 days a week. Anna would also be at home when classes are out for the day, holiday, or summer. She also would receive medical insurance. Most likely her children would qualify for Medicaid . I hope His Honor suggests that Anna step up into the real world and build herself a life while her diligent husband is "away". Sweet, loving, "I Have A Heart for Children", grandma Michelle can watch the one or two still too young for school.

[quarks]

12 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

I don't see the tabs running with the Was Smuggar Framed? narrative. Their eggs are in the "sex pest" basket. They will happily report his sentence come the 25th, the more years, the better.

Oh, I don't think it will work either. It's not as if the tabloids are going to bother doing any investigation about Josh Duggar at this point, and as you say, they're all in on the "sex pest" basket, which sells more copies.

But I'm pretty sure that's the goal of both of the Burgesses here - try to convince the public, not the judge, that Josh has been framed.  And maybe - just maybe - someone will be convinced by that "Josh cured alcoholism!" story and start thinking that Josh must be a wonderful person. I think not, but that's me.

 

[Absolom]

1 hour ago, floridamom said:

Anna states in her letter to the judge that she is dependent on Josh financially, emotionally and just about for everything. I believe (and hope) that the judge will read this and advise Anna to get a J.O.B.

The judge will give Anna zero advice.  It isn't his job.  His sole issue at the hearing is sentencing Josh.  

[Quilt Fairy]

3 hours ago, SMama said:

Yes, the least he can get is 5 years. Fingers crossed for enhancements. I watched Emily Baker’s video last night for the first time. She’s certain 20 years is just not going to happen. Her educated guess is 8-12. 

That video is worth a watch.  She had read the government memo beforehand, so she mainly summarized it, leaving out anything descriptive.  She had not read the defense memo or the letters, however, and it is funny how often they leave her speechless.  (This is not a woman who is usually speechless.)  She believes that Josh's defense team has done a good job with what they had, but thought that the overly effusive letters might actually do more harm than good as the judge sat through the trial and knows what kind of man Josh really is.  She spent a long time on how inappropriate it was for Michelle to sign her name with a heart in a letter to a federal court.  

Does anyone remember the YT video where a lawyer explained how the sentencing guidelines would work specifically in Josh's case?  I think the base number (level of heinousness) for Josh's crime was around 24-26, and he described how various enhancements could take that number up or down.  His evaluation was that with everything in evidence added on the number might go to 32-34.  Anyhow, according to the prosecution memo, the PSR set the number at 42. That's a lot of enhancements.

[Zella]

18 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Anyhow, according to the prosecution memo, the PSR set the number at 42. That's a lot of enhancements.

Yeah they've thrown the book at him. And I hope it hits him square in the face. 

[cmr2014]

6 hours ago, Zella said:

I'm also thinking constantly talking about him being around children in light of the crimes he's been convicted of is not a good look. I'm not saying that as speculation he has abused additional people, but it's a very uncomfortable juxtaposition that I don't think will sit well with someone tasked with deciding how many years in prison Josh needs, and I think the Duggars are likely completely oblivious to it. 

I agree.

I also think that if I were the judge and I was reading these letters, I would be concerned by Anna's letter.

She's clearly in denial, and I would be concerned that once Josh is released, she will not be vigilant about her children's well being. It's not even remotely uncommon for women to care more about a significant other than their own children. Plenty of women stand by while their men physically, sexually, and emotionally abuse thier children and, to me, Anna "at least I have a husband" Duggar is just that sort of woman.

I'm not suggesting that there's any indication that Josh has abused his own children, but there's also no indication that Anna has accepted the seriousness of what he's done, or that she has checked in with her children and has any reason for comfort that he hasn't.

If it were up to me, that would factor heavily into my decision and I'd be more likely to give him 16+ years.

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, Quilt Fairy said:

That video is worth a watch.  She had read the government memo beforehand, so she mainly summarized it, leaving out anything descriptive.  She had not read the defense memo or the letters, however, and it is funny how often they leave her speechless.  (This is not a woman who is usually speechless.)  She believes that Josh's defense team has done a good job with what they had, but thought that the overly effusive letters might actually do more harm than good as the judge sat through the trial and knows what kind of man Josh really is.  She spent a long time on how inappropriate it was for Michelle to sign her name with a heart in a letter to a federal court.  

Does anyone remember the YT video where a lawyer explained how the sentencing guidelines would work specifically in Josh's case?  I think the base number (level of heinousness) for Josh's crime was around 24-26, and he described how various enhancements could take that number up or down.  His evaluation was that with everything in evidence added on the number might go to 32-34.  Anyhow, according to the prosecution memo, the PSR set the number at 42. That's a lot of enhancements.

Things definitely changed for the better (for the world -- and for the worse, for Josh), when the real-life molestations became part of the conversation. That plus a few other Josh actions such as the exact nature of the material he gravitated to really "enhanced" things for him, all right. The excellent part is that the much higher number is a hundred percent his own fault......

And, given that the whopping majority of men in that DOJ district who are convicted of the exact crimes Josh is do get somewhere between about 6 and 8 and a half years -- i.e., the 32-34 level --he clearly differs from the norm. 

Guess that shows that, far being among the "best" of humanity, as his nutso neighbor says, he's among the worst of CSA convicts. ....  I wish this fact could somehow penetrate the thick skulls of his parents and wife. Seems to me everybody in the family would benefit -- if painfully -- from a strong dose of realism about this. 

Edited May 15, 2022 by Churchhoney

[quarks]

5 hours ago, floridamom said:

Anna states in her letter to the judge that she is dependent on Josh financially, emotionally and just about for everything. I believe (and hope) that the judge will read this and advise Anna to get a J.O.B. He may suggest she apply in the local public school system as a teacher's aide in a PreK class and while she's at it, she register all of her school aged children there too. They would receive a better, structured education, learn time management skills, qualify for free breakfast and lunch 5 days a week. Anna would also be at home when classes are out for the day, holiday, or summer. She also would receive medical insurance. Most likely her children would qualify for Medicaid . I hope His Honor suggests that Anna step up into the real world and build herself a life while her diligent husband is "away". Sweet, loving, "I Have A Heart for Children", grandma Michelle can watch the one or two still too young for school.

I suspect this will be an unpopular opinion here, but although I'm all for public schools and I'm hoping that more of the Duggarlings follow Jill's example and send their kids there (looking directly and specifically at you, Jessa and Ben) I do not think it is a good idea for the M kids to go to public school for at least the next two years.

We're talking about relatively isolated, unprepared for public school kids who are also the kids of someone convicted of downloading CSAM. It's one thing for them to play with the Burgess kids. It's another thing entirely to throw them into public school. It's also very notable that even Nicole Burgess - someone who believes that Josh is innocent - feels she needs to ask her own kids if they trust the M kids and if everything is ok with the M kids on a regular basis. And if David Waller is to believed - and I think in this very small matter he is - the M kids are already freaking out.  If they head to public school, they will be harassed and bullied. That is not something they need right now.

And in terms of Anna getting a job as a teacher's aide - well, to start with, I just checked, and it looks as if she would need an associate's degree to work as a teacher's aide at any public school in Arkansas, which she doesn't have. Private schools are a bit more flexible, especially for pre-K, but not that much, especially given that she has no work history. And qualifications aside, I would be very surprised if any school, public or private, agreed to hire her, even in the current job market. Nothing she can offer the school is worth the complaints/harassment they would have to deal with. 

Edited May 15, 2022 by quarks

[farmgal4]

4 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Who is that rant benefitting? Its certainly not benefitting Anna. Its not benefitting Jill or Joy or the rest of her cousins. Its not benefitting any women struggling to get out of unhealthy relationships.

Amy thinks it gives her points with public opinion. She thinks any Duggar friend or family who hates Anna, Josh, JB & M must be a good Duggar friend or a good Duggar. She wants to be a publicly loved Duggar.

I'm not saying what Amy tweeted is not true, or that she should support Anna or any Duggar, but what I am saying is she should shut the fuck up. Or if she must say it, say it privately to Anna. Call her. Text her. Write her a letter. Just stop trying to win points by being an asshole.

I agree that Amy is not doing herself any favors by going public with this; however, I’m sure that JBoob is having 3 fits and a bad spell which makes me extremely happy.

[GeeGolly]

I watch a lot of ID Channel and I have seen many interviews with family members of criminals. Their responses are all over the place. I think the only real consistency is they all have such conflicted feelings about their loved ones. Loved ones who have committed many horrific crimes. Of course most of them have had years or even decades to try and make sense of it all.

I'm not sure Anna will ever recognize reality. I think JB & M do, but I think they also think with enough love, prayers and support they can fix Josh, so in that sense I don't think they'll ever see the real picture.

[Cinnabon]

3 hours ago, floridamom said:

Anna states in her letter to the judge that she is dependent on Josh financially, emotionally and just about for everything. I believe (and hope) that the judge will read this and advise Anna to get a J.O.B. He may suggest she apply in the local public school system as a teacher's aide in a PreK class and while she's at it, she register all of her school aged children there too. They would receive a better, structured education, learn time management skills, qualify for free breakfast and lunch 5 days a week. Anna would also be at home when classes are out for the day, holiday, or summer. She also would receive medical insurance. Most likely her children would qualify for Medicaid . I hope His Honor suggests that Anna step up into the real world and build herself a life while her diligent husband is "away". Sweet, loving, "I Have A Heart for Children", grandma Michelle can watch the one or two still too young for school.

Or just start by getting some professional therapy. But who are we kidding? Is she destitute and low income or not? Do her kids currently have any health insurance coverage?

[hathorlive]

5 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

That video is worth a watch.  She had read the government memo beforehand, so she mainly summarized it, leaving out anything descriptive.  She had not read the defense memo or the letters, however, and it is funny how often they leave her speechless.  (This is not a woman who is usually speechless.)  She believes that Josh's defense team has done a good job with what they had, but thought that the overly effusive letters might actually do more harm than good as the judge sat through the trial and knows what kind of man Josh really is.  She spent a long time on how inappropriate it was for Michelle to sign her name with a heart in a letter to a federal court.  

Does anyone remember the YT video where a lawyer explained how the sentencing guidelines would work specifically in Josh's case?  I think the base number (level of heinousness) for Josh's crime was around 24-26, and he described how various enhancements could take that number up or down.  His evaluation was that with everything in evidence added on the number might go to 32-34.  Anyhow, according to the prosecution memo, the PSR set the number at 42. That's a lot of enhancements.

If all those enhancements are applied, I'll be gobsmacked.  I've never had a single case where they were considered in all my years in federal court.  I'm hoping this is a new thing that is being followed, as I've had judges openly scoff at enhancements and their legality.  But I still think Josh will get less than 15 years.  He will most definitely get more than the average of 8 years.  Anything over 13 is a gift.  I'd like to think the judge will attempt to get all the minor kids out of the house by the time Josh gets out, but he's not getting 17 years.

[Tuxcat]

14 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

If all those enhancements are applied, I'll be gobsmacked.  I've never had a single case where they were considered in all my years in federal court.  I'm hoping this is a new thing that is being followed, as I've had judges openly scoff at enhancements and their legality.  But I still think Josh will get less than 15 years.  He will most definitely get more than the average of 8 years.  Anything over 13 is a gift.  I'd like to think the judge will attempt to get all the minor kids out of the house by the time Josh gets out, but he's not getting 17 years.

Well said. Emily Baker said 8-12 too. I'm hoping for 12 but prepared for 8.

[emmawoodhouse]

32 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

Well said. Emily Baker said 8-12 too. I'm hoping for 12 but prepared for 8.

Split the difference and give him 10? Although Madyson would still be in Smuggar's preferred prepubescent age range when he gets out. What, if anything, can be done to protect her?

[GeeGolly]

I'm still shooting for 19. For both the irony of the number and their youngest child will be 19. Also both Anna and Josh will be in their 50s.

If they're looking at the molestations as pedophilia, I don't see why it won't be a high number. It shows a history of hands on assault, but still an escalation in depravity.

10 days and counting. 

[Tuxcat]

24 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm still shooting for 19. For both the irony of the number and their youngest child will be 19. Also both Anna and Josh will be in their 50s.

If they're looking at the molestations as pedophilia, I don't see why it won't be a high number. It shows a history of hands on assault, but still an escalation in depravity.

10 days and counting. 

It's tricky because his pattern hasn't been to just view CSAM and he was technically underage still at the time of the only documented hands on abuse. We know from the court records  (and from the previous scandals involving Danica) that adult porn - including dominating style porn was also found -. What he viewed (and is being sentenced for) was horrific but as far as the court is concerned, he does not have a history of viewing or engaging with that material in the past. And no other in- person victims have been identified in almost two decades. So I'm not entirely sure then that he would be classified as a pedophile.

I'm just guessing here -- (obviously if I were the judge, I'd go over the 20 years) - but these  lingering questions  make me think judge might not go toward the high end.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Tuxcat

[GeeGolly]

4 hours ago, Tuxcat said:

It's tricky because his pattern hasn't been to just view CSAM and he was technically underage still at the time of the only documented hands on abuse. We know from the court records  (and from the previous scandals involving Danica) that adult porn - including dominating style porn was also found -. What he viewed (and is being sentenced for) was horrific but as far as the court is concerned, he does not have a history of viewing or engaging with that material in the past. And no other in- person victims have been identified in almost two decades. So I'm not entirely sure then that he would be classified as a pedophile.

I'm just guessing here -- (obviously if I were the judge, I'd go over the 20 years) - but these  lingering questions  make me think judge might not go toward the high end.

IMO, Josh likely isn't a pedophile, but I thought I read in one of the posts that one of the enhancers the judge used labeled him as such. If that is true I see no reason not to go high.

Well, I see know reason not to go high anyway, but I'm not the judge.

[Absolom]

I'll view anything over 8 as a plus.  Wasn't 8 years what was bandied about as what Josh was offered as a plea bargain and turned it down?  I so want JB and Josh to have wasted every penny they spent in their arrogance that they could get Josh out of his justly earned prison sentence.  What I really want is for Josh to get is at least 10 to 12 years.  Anything above that will make me jubilant. 

[merylinkid]

13 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Seems to me everybody in the family would benefit -- if painfully -- from a strong dose of realism about this. 

In 10 days they about to get one.   JB miiiiight be starting to realize that Josh isn't coming home any time soon.   Michelle is too zonked out to process it.   Besides she signed her letter with a heart i, why wouldn't the judge be moved by that?   Anna is in completely denial.   Because she is really so dependent on Josh, she cannot fathom him not coming home.   

When the Judge very carefully goes through his reasoning for imposing his sentence, she is going to be shocked.   Then we are going to see another hasty exit out of the courtroom.   I don't think Anna will ever accept that Josh really is this bad, that is not a frame job because he is so godly.   As it keeps getting pointed out, this is the person she believes God chose for her if she was a good girl and did everything she was told and believed in the Right Jesus.   So either God got it wrong, or her she was bad in some way, or her belief system is screwed up.   That is a LOT to handle.   She won't be able to get therapy either to process it.   So she will just stay in denial and claim it was a frame.

8-12 is fine for me.   By the time he gets out, the kids will have moved on without him.   They won't be used to having a dad around.   Hopefully the older ones will be close enough to protect the youngers ones.   Because Mommy might be in denial, but the kids won't be for long.   

[Tuxcat]

36 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

 As it keeps getting pointed out, this is the person she believes God chose for her if she was a good girl and did everything she was told and believed in the Right Jesus.   So either God got it wrong, or her she was bad in some way, or her belief system is screwed up.   That is a LOT to handle.   She won't be able to get therapy either to process it.   So she will just stay in denial and claim it was a frame.

Or this was god's plan all along - so that Josh could minister, cure alcoholism and "save" all the hardened criminals. I'm sure she'll somehow believe that her family's prison ministry prepared her for this moment and that "Josh's suffering/persecution" will actually affirm her belief that god is working in their lives. She will maintain that god is using them for a greater good. Somehow she will flip it. Prison is not punishment - it will be opportunity to do god's work- "Josh was chosen."

[lookeyloo]

Y'all know I am not a Duggar fan.  Regarding Anna and getting a job - which she doesn't see as an option as far as we know - of course she should - but then again, if no one will hire her, how will she, should she ever get to that point .  

We always hear "so and so should get a job" and then we ask them "well you have a business, why don't you hire them?"  "Oh no, not me! wouldn't take a chance."  There are some (not all, obviously) people who could have a job if someone would give them the chance.   

Plus Anna has no experience in behaving and interacting in the larger society.  Also not to mention child care for 7 because if they are not in school they would maybe be left to fend for themselves at the Big House with those Lost Girls.  It is a very complex situation, I think. I'm not even commenting on her love and support for her dear innocent Joshua!  (Sarcasm)

[Cinnabon]

1 minute ago, lookeyloo said:

Y'all know I am not a Duggar fan.  Regarding Anna and getting a job - which she doesn't see as an option as far as we know - of course she should - but then again, if no one will hire her, how will she, should she ever get to that point .  

We always hear "so and so should get a job" and then we ask them "well you have a business, why don't you hire them?"  "Oh no, not me! wouldn't take a chance."  There are some (not all, obviously) people who could have a job if someone would give them the chance.   

Plus Anna has no experience in behaving and interacting in the larger society.  Also not to mention child care for 7 because if they are not in school they would maybe be left to fend for themselves at the Big House with those Lost Girls.  It is a very complex situation, I think. I'm not even commenting on her love and support for her dear innocent Joshua!  (Sarcasm)

She’s lucky she has options. Most don’t have in laws who let them and their many children live rent free (and everything else free) on their property, 

[lookeyloo]

26 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

She’s lucky she has options. Most don’t have in laws who let them and their many children live rent free (and everything else free) on their property, 

Yes for sure. Just commenting on the job thing. 

[crazycatlady58]

49 minutes ago, lookeyloo said:

Y'all know I am not a Duggar fan.  Regarding Anna and getting a job - which she doesn't see as an option as far as we know - of course she should - but then again, if no one will hire her, how will she, should she ever get to that point .  

We always hear "so and so should get a job" and then we ask them "well you have a business, why don't you hire them?"  "Oh no, not me! wouldn't take a chance."  There are some (not all, obviously) people who could have a job if someone would give them the chance.   

Plus Anna has no experience in behaving and interacting in the larger society.  Also not to mention child care for 7 because if they are not in school they would maybe be left to fend for themselves at the Big House with those Lost Girls.  It is a very complex situation, I think. I'm not even commenting on her love and support for her dear innocent Joshua!  (Sarcasm)

Yes, and if she did get a job it would not surprise me if there would be some people who would do their best to get her fired. 

[Heathen]

1 hour ago, crazycatlady58 said:

Yes, and if she did get a job it would not surprise me if there would be some people who would do their best to get her fired. 

I have a feeling Ofsmuggar would take care of that herself. Show up on time, work hard, don't leave early, don't proselytize? That's for commoners! 

Assuming she managed to get hired anywhere with her lack of education and work history. Also assuming her job was not a pity offering from the kind of people who did the Duggars' laundry and gave them love offerings while Jim Bob blew $250K on vanity. 

Edited May 15, 2022 by Heathen