Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[libgirl2]

2 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

I know that.  And you know that. But for people who go to church 3 times a week, they have a curious lack of biblical knowledge.  They think Catholics are some strange sect like Muslims.  I've had coworkers who don't know who Martin Luther is and don't understand the Protestant Reformation.  It's sad.  I just wish they understood their own religion better.

I agree. They should study church history from the beginning and also other religions. They put so much emphasis in Bible study but do they really  know  it? No. 

[hathorlive]

2 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I agree. They should study church history from the beginning and also other religions. They put so much emphasis in Bible study but do they really  know  it? No. 

Based on my experience, people like the Duggars read the bible and use it to underscore their beliefs.  I've been told that Jesus was against abortion.  Yet, he never speaks about it. That's their raison d'etre.  And yet they do nothing about the actual teachings of Jesus, taking care of the poor and sick, taking in the stranger.  None of that BS.  The Duggars and other fundamentalist's don't teach the actual bible.  Heck, every major world religion has a golden rule that basically says "be nice to other people".

[Gemma Violet]

1 hour ago, SMama said:

I just read the Nicole Burress letter, and what a tale of fiction.

It's like she was nominating Josh for sainthood.  🤮

[libgirl2]

4 minutes ago, Gemma Violet said:

It's like she was nominating Josh for sainthood.  🤮

Yea, disgusting. 

[SusanM]

With regard to some of the claims made in those letters, is it typical that the judge would just accept these at face value or would he get someone to do a little sleuthing to find out how credible some of the claims are?  Because honest to god the jail story is straight out of some overwrought inspirational Christian fiction story.   Do they seriously expect a seasoned judge to buy that nonsense?

[libgirl2]

10 minutes ago, SusanM said:

With regard to some of the claims made in those letters, is it typical that the judge would just accept these at face value or would he get someone to do a little sleuthing to find out how credible some of the claims are?  Because honest to god the jail story is straight out of some overwrought inspirational Christian fiction story.   Do they seriously expect a seasoned judge to buy that nonsense?

I am sure the judge has read it all and knows a con when he sees one. 

[SusanM]

1 minute ago, libgirl2 said:

I am sure the judge has read it all and knows a con when he sees one. 

I guess these so called Christians haven't acquainted themselves with the 10 Commandments.  Especially the not bearing false witness one.

[libgirl2]

4 minutes ago, SusanM said:

I guess these so called Christians haven't acquainted themselves with the 10 Commandments.  Especially the not bearing false witness one.

I don't think they believe they are lying. I think they really to believe he is a good guy or they are just hoping that the more they say it the better he will be. 

[SMama]

According to Timothy Burress the FF holds bible studies twice a day, plus leads a nightly prayer with other inmates. How is Saint FF able to do this from solitary?

If you get the opportunity read this nut’s letter. The level of conspiracy is off the charts. 

[libgirl2]

3 minutes ago, SMama said:

According to Timothy Burress the FF holds bible studies twice a day, plus leads a nightly prayer with other inmates. How is Saint FF able to do this from solitary?

If you get the opportunity read this nut’s letter. The level of conspiracy is off the charts. 

His physical form is in solitary but his holy presence transcends the jail walls. 🙄

[Ohiopirate02]

10 minutes ago, SusanM said:

I guess these so called Christians haven't acquainted themselves with the 10 Commandments.  Especially the not bearing false witness one.

 

5 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I don't think they believe they are lying. I think they really to believe he is a good guy or they are just hoping that the more they say it the better he will be. 

I've heard it explained this way--the commandment ends with bearing false witness against your neighbor.  Fundies interpret this phrase to mean your neighbor is your fellow Christian who believes in the Right Jesus (TM).  Meaning you are not sinning if you stretch the truth or fib or flat-out lie to an unbeliever.  As long as Judge Brooks (??) is not the right type of Christian, you are not sinning.  

[Gemma Violet]

Here's the Burress letter in case anyone hasn't seen it.  It starts on page 2:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CddnazbubSG/

[GeeGolly]

8 minutes ago, Gemma Violet said:

Here's the Burress letter in case anyone hasn't seen it.  It starts on page 2:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CddnazbubSG/

Wow!

[Tabbygirl521]

On 5/8/2022 at 11:40 AM, beckie said:

Josh has been "away" for a while now. I wonder what they are telling his kids? I hope they aren't telling them that he'll be back soon.

I just hope the kids aren’t made to feel like they didn’t pray hard enough when Daddy doesn’t make his triumphant return home. 

[MamaMax]

16 hours ago, galaxygirl76 said:

Hard working? That family wouldn't recognize working hard if it walked up to them and slapped them in the face. 

To them, grifting is the same as work

16 hours ago, lascuba said:

Hey, it's not like any Duggar has ever used an alarm clock. Give him some credit for breaking family tradition!

 

4 hours ago, BitterApple said:

 He also helped sweep up cracker crumbs. Shouldn't we give that an honorable mention as well? 🙄

This reads like one of JRod's tall tales. 

It's telling that the best they could say about him is that he gets out of bed and sometimes helps clean up.  

The other "Fan Fic"  letters that the women wrote are transparent lies. Except I don't think they made up the lies - JOSH told them the lies and they are so gullible they believe it. 

As for Anna, she is 100% in denial bc her entire world is built upon lies  told to her by the people who are supposed to love her.  I can totally see her going to her grave telling herself that Joshua is a martyr and was falsely accused as part of the devils machinations. If she ever DOES process the truth, I wouldn't be surprised if she had a complete mental breakdown.

 

[GeeGolly]

Even if Josh was everything Mrs Burgess says he was - he still downloaded legal porn and CSA. He still joined a cheating website and he still molested his sisters.

Does she not get that?

[libgirl2]

3 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Even if Josh was everything Mrs Burgess says he was - he still downloaded legal porn and CSA. He still joined a cheating website and he still molested his sisters.

Does she not get that?

No she doesn't. A person can be evil yet have another side that they show to others. 

Edited May 12, 2022 by libgirl2

[galaxygirl76]

14 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

No she doesn't. A person can be evil yet have another side that they show to others. 

Ted Bundy once saved a kid from drowning. Still a serial killing piece of shit.

[libgirl2]

6 minutes ago, galaxygirl76 said:

Ted Bundy once saved a kid from drowning. Still a serial killing piece of shit.

There are serial killers and other sickos that were good husbands, good fathers, good friends.....  I don't think any of this applies to FF and I think that letter is a bunch of made up shit. 

[quarks]

Reddit is reporting that the two Burgess neighbors (aka, the ones who wrote the longest, most literate letters) recently bought property from JB at what looks like a pretty steep discount.

Which is what happens, I guess, when you can't convince any of Josh's 18 siblings or most of his in-laws/extended in-laws to write even tepid letters on Josh's behalf, and when Josh's own wife, pressed to say good things about her husband, is so limited in things to say that she has to mention that he sweeps up cracker crumbs.

[libgirl2]

20 minutes ago, quarks said:

Reddit is reporting that the two Burgess neighbors (aka, the ones who wrote the longest, most literate letters) recently bought property from JB at what looks like a pretty steep discount.

Which is what happens, I guess, when you can't convince any of Josh's 18 siblings or most of his in-laws/extended in-laws to write even tepid letters on Josh's behalf, and when Josh's own wife, pressed to say good things about her husband, is so limited in things to say that she has to mention that he sweeps up cracker crumbs.

Mmmm... they got "paid off". 

[Tabbygirl521]

I didn’t see this posted yet. Apparently it’s genuine. 
Michelle pleads on Joshua’s behalf

[libgirl2]

2 minutes ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

I didn’t see this posted yet. Apparently it’s genuine. 
Michelle pleads on Joshua’s behalf

She really is clueless. 

[louannems]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

No she doesn't. A person can be evil yet have another side that they show to others. 

I think criminals of all types can easily compartmentalize their lives.

The old mafia stereotypes of a good family man. The Green River killer with his charm and pillar of society life. Etc. 

It's perfectly reasonable that Josh is a decent dad and would never even think about his own kids in the way that his personal, private self craves to see.

 

[Ijustwantsomechips]

I just want to reoprt that someone on Reddit referred to the FF as J’pedo🤣 Priceless!

[beckie]

Are the inmates allowed to go past the cells that are considered solitary? Aren't they separate from the regular cells? I have no idea how it all works, but that story about the felon and JoshUa sounds bogus as f.

[hathorlive]

10 minutes ago, louannems said:

I think criminals of all types can easily compartmentalize their lives.

The old mafia stereotypes of a good family man. The Green River killer with his charm and pillar of society life. Etc. 

It's perfectly reasonable that Josh is a decent dad and would never even think about his own kids in the way that his personal, private self craves to see.

 

BTK was caught because he was a deacon at his church and he used their computer to write a note to the police, which was sent on a floppy disk.  Of course, the metadata said the owner of Office was the church and the author was Dennis.  It's always the metadata that gets you, folks.  

Religion is used to mask a lot of ugly, evil people.

[GeeGolly]

The day in the life of Josh:

Come on kiddos lets say a prayer before daddy goes off to work. Anna I'll take the older boys to work with me for an hour, will you drop this $1000 dollars (really $208, 2 100s with 8 1s in between, sealed in an envelope) off to the Widow Smith on your way to get the boys?

Fast forward to near closing time:

Sorry Anna I can't go to Lowe's with you I'm slammed right now (downloading porn). You go ahead and go to Lowe's and I'll bring home Chick fil A (scrolling porn on phone while waiting for the download to finish). Has a party of one.

Arrives home with food:

Lets thank God for a wonderful day and for food on our table. They eat. Josh listens to Mack read a story to her siblings and helps tuck the kids in bed. Josh gives Anna a foot rub, they have a quick boink and fall asleep. Josh wakes up at midnight scrolls his phone and has a party of one and back to sleep.

But he cleans up crumbs and rubs my feet you honor.

[merylinkid]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

 

I've heard it explained this way--the commandment ends with bearing false witness against your neighbor.  Fundies interpret this phrase to mean your neighbor is your fellow Christian who believes in the Right Jesus (TM).  Meaning you are not sinning if you stretch the truth or fib or flat-out lie to an unbeliever.  As long as Judge Brooks (??) is not the right type of Christian, you are not sinning.  

I'm a lawyer and even I say that is some mighty thin hair splitting there.

[Ohiopirate02]

1 minute ago, merylinkid said:

I'm a lawyer and even I say that is some mighty thin hair splitting there.

Oh it is.  They always move the goalpost when it comes to the definition of their neighbor.  So, a husband can lie to his wife because she's a woman and under his umbrella of protection and therefore not his neighbor.  His neighbor is the men in his church.  

[cmr2014]

51 minutes ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

I didn’t see this posted yet. Apparently it’s genuine. 
Michelle pleads on Joshua’s behalf

That really is sad. The exclamation points are very sad.

Josh goes camping! Josh repairs bicycles! He comes up with creative ways to make money!

I don't even have words for the printed signature with the heart over the "i."

[Zella]

1 hour ago, MamaMax said:

 

It's telling that the best they could say about him is that he gets out of bed and sometimes helps clean up.  

 

It's not as overtly stupid, but I also marveled at Anna's example of Josh's stellar parenting being that he enthusiastically greets all the kids by name when he gets home from work. Like, that is such a low bar of basic human interaction, and she thinks it makes him dad of the year? 

[hathorlive]

So I'm reading the Prosecutions sentencing recommendation.  Here are some of the highlights so far:

• Smuggar objected to  85 out of 168 paragraphs in the Pre-Sentencing Report (PSR).  These objections include:  all "offense conduct attributed to Smuggar," all prior acts of sexual abuse committed by Smuggar, and all enhancement charges listed in the PSR (4 enhancements were listed, I won't go into them for your mental health).
• Prosecution supports all 4 enhancements and has revised the number of images upward to 600, based on the conversion of videos to still images (usually 65 per minute (it's been a long time since I did this).  The enhancements make the total number of years for sentencing 30, but they are capped at a max of 20 years.
• The Prosecution supports a 20 year sentence based on: Josh's prior sexual abuse of multiple minors, steps JOsh took to hide his activities, Steps taken to view and download material, nature of the CP downloaded, and his refusal to accept any accountability for his actions or to admit his guilt.

If you want to continue to hit the highlights, without specific mentions of the nature of the CP, let me know. 

[MargeGunderson]

Just now, cmr2014 said:

That really is sad. The exclamation points are very sad.

Josh goes camping! Josh repairs bicycles! He comes up with creative ways to make money!

I don't even have words for the printed signature with the heart over the "i."

I cannot get over the use of exclamation points in Michelle’s letter. It’s such a small thing but it makes me feel stabby. It’s so….disrespectful somehow.

[CalicoKitty]

I wonder who wrote this letter.  Maybe the attorney?  It is too professional for it to have actually been written by Michelle.  It's pretty sad if that is all the attributes that someone can mention about  another person.  I'm sure she was told to just sign here.

[libgirl2]

2 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

I cannot get over the use of exclamation points in Michelle’s letter. It’s such a small thing but it makes me feel stabby. It’s so….disrespectful somehow.

I find it delusional and juvenile. The heart too. 

[hathorlive]

1 minute ago, CalicoKitty said:

I wonder who wrote this letter.  Maybe the attorney?  It is too professional for it to have actually been written by Michelle.  It's pretty sad if that is all the attributes that someone can mention about  another person.  I'm sure she was told to just sign here.

Considering her birthday wishes consist of xyz child having "a servants heart", it does seem like she had a lot of help.

[Tabbygirl521]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

She really is clueless. 

You weren’t swayed by her adorable “signature”?

[hathorlive]

1 minute ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

You weren’t swayed by her adorable “signature”?

Wait.  Is that signature defrauding the judge?  Is it attempting to draw attention away from Michelle's countenance and toward a sexy little heart?  Michelle, you vixen.  Said no one ever.  She comes off as infantilized, which is the goal of her cult.

[Gemma Violet]

23 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

The Prosecution supports a 20 year sentence based on:

They should have added that he tried to pin this whole thing on his friend.  He would have gladly seen his friend go to jail for something he (Josh) did.  

[AgathaC]

I’m not at all surprised by the letters and support for poor wittle persecuted Joshy but I add them to the “things that make my slapping hand itch” pile. Around here, I can’t tell you the number of ads that refer to Christianity (political, business, you name it — even a car wash a mile from my house). It seems like in recent years, it’s gotten worse and worse. But the underlying theme seems to be that Christian automatically equals good.

I’m a Christian. I’ve attended church my whole life. I’ve read the Bible. And I’m willing to bet these brain-dead sheep have read about, talked about and “followed” Jesus without having a single clue or tiny grasp of what he actually said.

Now people are supporting Josh because, hey, he’s a white male “Christian.” Gag.

I actually heard a sermon once where the preacher said she (the horror) thought we needed a new term, like Christ follower, to distinguish between the hypocritical, hateful crazies and the people who actually try.

Edited May 12, 2022 by AgathaC

[Nysha]

32 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

If you want to continue to hit the highlights, without specific mentions of the nature of the CP, let me know. 

I would. I really appreciate that you've posted it. I was going to read the papers myself, but the content warning from these boards made me change my mind.

[hathorlive]

19 minutes ago, Nysha said:

I would. I really appreciate that you've posted it. I was going to read the papers myself, but the content warning from these boards made me change my mind.

I can do it in sections, as the day goes on.  I think Josh's lawyer's argument is insane.  Basically, he denies that he ever sexual assaulted his sisters. So, the Fox news things where his sisters confirmed it, the records that were realized by the police, all of it is lies.  Josh never did that.  

[SMama]

2 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

I can do it in sections, as the day goes on.  I think Josh's lawyer's argument is insane.  Basically, he denies that he ever sexual assaulted his sisters. So, the Fox news things where his sisters confirmed it, the records that were realized by the police, all of it is lies.  Josh never did that.  

Would this flat out denial affect his sentence? After the Meghan Kelly interviews and Holt’s testimony he has the nerve to call all of them liars? 

[beckie]

5 minutes ago, SMama said:

Would this flat out denial affect his sentence? After the Meghan Kelly interviews and Holt’s testimony he has the nerve to call all of them liars? 

That sounds like some people I've seen on those true crime channels, who, even when the evidence is stacked against them, still say that they are innocent and everyone else is lying and picking on them.

[Trillium]

5 minutes ago, beckie said:

That sounds like some people I've seen on those true crime channels, who, even when the evidence is stacked against them, still say that they are innocent and everyone else is lying and picking on them.

Pam Hupp has entered the chat. 

[Ljohnson1987]

F anyone who is asking for leniency for that pig. Doesn't Michelle (Who is obviously immature to dot the I with a <3) care about her daughters, who were Josh's victims? Doesn't Anna care about the women who have helped her raise her children?  These people are awful. 

[GeeGolly]

While Michelle's letter came close (still very far though), you'd think some of these character references would acknowledge Josh's crimes and/or issues. Not only are they all tone deaf to the realities of life, but they're tone deaf to the fact Josh was convicted. Found guilty. Proven guilty. Thus the sentencing hearing.

Its like their writing a reference for a job as a pastor or something.

[cmr2014]

1 hour ago, CalicoKitty said:

I wonder who wrote this letter.  Maybe the attorney?  It is too professional for it to have actually been written by Michelle.  It's pretty sad if that is all the attributes that someone can mention about  another person.  I'm sure she was told to just sign here.

I think that she wrote it. It's stuffed full of Gothard-speak:

"My heart is to share . . ."

"He is wise financially -- saving money for the future and purposing not to go into debt."

"One example of his heart to help others . . ."

"Joshua is a loving and patient man, striving to be a blessing . . .:

One thing that sets it apart of the obligatory birthday messages, is that I think she actually gives a shit about Josh. She probably spent months, rather than minutes, putting it together. Perhaps someone in the law office (or David Waller?) did some proof-reading, but it's very much her voice.

[hathorlive]

Part 2:

So on the enhancement argument for Distribution of CP:

• Duggar objects to this, saying there was no evidence he knew he was distributing CP.
• Josh says the enhancement doesn't apply because he wasn't charged with distribution.  Prosecutors say guidelines clearly permit the consideration of noncharged conduct when applying enhancements.
• Josh's atty's say this enhancement is misapplied because the evidence doesn't prove he "knowingly" distributed CP. 
• The government quotes a ton of court cases that say that the name of the filesharing program indicates you are sharing files, regardless of the user's ignorance.

Okay, I'm going to be controversial here and say I agree with Josh on this point.  I've worked numerous cases involving peer to peer.  And none of them realized, in the setup, that they were agreeing to share all files in their "share" folder.  Mainly because they just hit enter through all those screens, but if they knew the content of these folders were being shared, they wouldn't have agreed.  Because THAT'S HOW THEY GET CAUGHT.   The government undermines their position by repeatedly saying that Josh is savvy with computers, he knows file sharing, he's really good with computers.   But if Josh were so knowledgeable, and "knowingly" shared that folder, he would have removed the files from the folder so no illegal content would be shared.   So, I disagree government.  And I have to say, no prosecutor ever put this much work into my enhancements.  I'm a bit jealous.

 

The government then points out he downloaded and shared the Marissa file, which the ICAC detective downloaded from him, therefore showing he distributed it.  They next bring up Clint Branham, a friend of Duggar's for 20 years, who described him as a power user of computers.  The government then goes into how he created a Linux partition and downloaded TOR and filesharing software.  And they say his own experts say he would have used command lines to install that partition (I disagree, you can get a GUI interface that is point and click).  The government then says this indicates Josh knew exactly how these programs worked because he downloaded movies on his mac.  Again, knowing how to type "dirty sex movie" in the search bar, and knowing what the network side of the program is doing is a separate skill set.  I can build computers, install OS's, know Mac, Windows and Linux, even DOS, I can use command lines and I can network anything, on top of cyber security and forensics.  However, I can't code to save my life.  I'm a power user who can't do everything.  

Josh is a POS who deserves a long sentence, but I don't think I agree with this enhancement.

Edited May 12, 2022 by hathorlive