Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[merylinkid]

2 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

I wonder if he’ll get any kind of therapy or treatment while in prison. Our prisons should be more about rehabilitation than punishment, but they’re certainly not.  And as you said, personality disorders don’t really respond to treatment. 

For therapy to be effective, Josh has to want to change.   He has to want to change how he deals with life.   He was to put in the effort to make the changes and keep making them day after day, even if there are setbacks.

Now based on what we know of Josh, what do you think the odds of that happening are?

It could be the bestest therapy in the world and it will useless without Josh's active cooperation.    not just saying the right things to get whatever benefit that would bring.

[Cinnabon]

4 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

For therapy to be effective, Josh has to want to change.   He has to want to change how he deals with life.   He was to put in the effort to make the changes and keep making them day after day, even if there are setbacks.

Now based on what we know of Josh, what do you think the odds of that happening are?

It could be the bestest therapy in the world and it will useless without Josh's active cooperation.    not just saying the right things to get whatever benefit that would bring.

Oh, I absolutely agree about Josh. But there are millions of others who are able to engage, learn, and try to improve themselves. 

[yogi2014L]

Prison is going to permanently and perhaps catastrophically change Josh. It will be very interesting to see what happens to him upon his release. Assuming he serves 4-5 years- his children will be grown, they will not know him, and what they do know of him they probably aren't going to like ( at least the older ones)

I agree with the previous poster who said he could get out and realize he wants to leave Anna ( which I think is very , very likely) . I don't know if any amount of money Daddy Duggar dangles in front of him could keep him in his warehouse with the kids he doesn't want and a wife he doesn't love. Anna will not go anywhere unless she is forced to. GF is in her own prison too. 

 

[Cinnabon]

1 minute ago, yogi2014L said:

Prison is going to permanently and perhaps catastrophically change Josh. It will be very interesting to see what happens to him upon his release. Assuming he serves 4-5 years- his children will be grown, they will not know him, and what they do know of him they probably aren't going to like ( at least the older ones)

I agree with the previous poster who said he could get out and realize he wants to leave Anna ( which I think is very , very likely) . I don't know if any amount of money Daddy Duggar dangles in front of him could keep him in his warehouse with the kids he doesn't want and a wife he doesn't love. Anna will not go anywhere unless she is forced to. GF is in her own prison too. 

 

He might well be stuck when he gets out. As a country, we don’t provide any real support for post prison transition, and those with felonies on their records are hard pressed to find any work at all, much less work that pays enough to live on. And so those without family to support them end up desperate. 

[Nysha]

24 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

He might well be stuck when he gets out. As a country, we don’t provide any real support for post prison transition, and those with felonies on their records are hard pressed to find any work at all, much less work that pays enough to live on. And so those without family to support them end up desperate. 

I agree, even companies that hire felons generally won't hire sex offenders and few places will rent to one. I think FF with choose an unhappy life with Anna and the kids instead of being penniless and homeless.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Nysha

[Cinnabon]

3 minutes ago, Nysha said:

I agree, even companies that hire felons generally won't hire sex offenders and few places will rent to one. I think FF with choose an unhappy life with Anna and the kids instead of being penniless and homeless.

It’s unfortunate and a huge problem in this country. Felons can’t get jobs, and can’t get any financial assistance (because BAD), so they end up desperate and prey upon others just to survive, then end up incarcerated again and cost the taxpayers millions more than they would with any “welfare” program. And so it’s repeated over and over again. So yes, Josh will likely have to stay with mommy, daddy, and his wife and 7 kids, even if that makes him miserable. And he’s one of the lucky ones.

[emmawoodhouse]

6 hours ago, Zella said:

I would be shocked if Anna weren't there, considering her perfect attendance during the trial.

Except when they showed the CSAM material to the jury. 

[Cinnabon]

Just now, emmawoodhouse said:

Except when they showed the CSAM material to the jury. 

She conveniently left to “breast feed” and avoided hearing the details of what Josh down. Coward.

[GeeGolly]

To me, one comment made years ago about the number of kids and one shrug about news of the next kid doesn't paint the whole picture, so my take is a little different. I think Josh loves Anna and his kids. Accepting that his political dreams were over, I think he was happily settled into wholesaling cars and enjoyed his family. The problem now was/is his pesky personality disorder. His psychopathic tendencies were getting in the way.

If you look at his sexual deviances like alcoholism (its not the same, but indulge me), Josh managed life just fine when he wasn't "drinking". He was liked by most who met him, but when he went on a "bender" everything fell apart.

I don't think the Felon has any plans other than returning to the Duggar compound. I think that's where he is happy and where he thinks he belongs.

[emmawoodhouse]

Is he happy? I think he derives pleasure in manipulating people, including his stupidly gullible wife. He'll be at the mercy of Boob's purse strings. That won't make him happy, as with Boob, money is conditional. 

[GeeGolly]

Just now, emmawoodhouse said:

Is he happy? I think he derives pleasure in manipulating people, including his stupidly gullible wife. He'll be at the mercy of Boob's purse strings. That won't make him happy, as with Boob, money is conditional. 

The mercy of JB's purse strings or broke? He's lucky he has a choice.

And yes, for the most part I think the Felon is as happy as someone with his disorder can be.

[Zella]

3 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Except when they showed the CSAM material to the jury. 

She was still there that day, though, I think. She just wasn't in the courtroom. That's why I don't see her missing his last legal hurrah. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Zella

[emmawoodhouse]

1 minute ago, Zella said:

She was still there that day, though, I think. She just wasn't in the courtroom. That's why I don't see her missing his last legal hurrah. 

Oh, she'll be there for the sentencing. 

And yes, I neglected to mention that she stepped out of the courtroom when it was announced that the CSAM was going to be shown. That was the only part of the trial she wasn't present for.

[Zella]

1 minute ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Oh, she'll be there for the sentencing. 

And yes, I neglected to mention that she stepped out of the courtroom when it was announced that the CSAM was going to be shown. That was the only part of the trial she wasn't present for.

I'm most curious about what expectations his legal team have given her to expect from this sentencing. Like, does she actually think he's coming home by some miracle or have they gotten it through her thick skull that he's actually going to be going away for at least a few years, so a "victory" for them is him getting the bare minimum of five versus ten or whatever else the sentence ends up being? 

[all fall down]

She better accept it at some point, at least for her kids sake. With the minumum 5 year sentence, he'll be gone at least another 4.5 years after sentencing (it will be nearly 6 months as time served by the time of sentencing), or probably longer. The kids need her to accept it and get used to their new daddy-free routine. 

[CalicoKitty]

Sorry, I have forgotten.  When is the sentencing?

[emmawoodhouse]

Just now, CalicoKitty said:

Sorry, I have forgotten.  When is the sentencing?

End of May. I want to say the 25th?

[CalicoKitty]

Just now, emmawoodhouse said:

End of May. I want to say the 25th?

Thanks.  How long does take, usually?

[emmawoodhouse]

3 minutes ago, CalicoKitty said:

Thanks.  How long does take, usually?

It probably depends on how many victim impact statements they have. I really hope Jill steps up here. She'd be my heroine forever. 

[GeeGolly]

2 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

It probably depends on how many victim impact statements they have. I really hope Jill steps up here. She'd be my heroine forever. 

Would she be able to? She wasn't a victim of what he was convicted of.

[emmawoodhouse]

3 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Would she be able to? She wasn't a victim of what he was convicted of.

Yes, but the abuse was brought up in the trial, so it's on the record. I hope anyone impacted by the fat fuck felon gets a chance to speak out. 

As I understand it, victims from the videos downloaded and viewed have prepared statements that are used in cases like this one. 

[merylinkid]

Oh lazy ass Josh will go right back to living rent free in the warehouse and "working" at the car lot which is probably one of the few places that a sex offender COULD get a job.   He might be angry that he got caught and went to prison, that doesn't mean he will make any EFFORT in his life post prison.    Why should he?   A place to live, a job that is really on paper only and not only pays his bills but pays for a pretty nice lifestyle without having to actually do anything while not being accountable really to anyone for how he spends his time.    

[iwantcookies]

No way Anna is leaving unless JB stops paying her bills.

Josh after prison: if JB takes him home Josh will live there. If not I have no clue what the GOLDEN FF is planning to do.

I doubt he will get a degree or learn a trade…

He might have to work in prison and that makes me laugh. First time ever GOLDEN FF will clean the toilets! Maybe he will be allowed to make the FAMOUS tater tot casserole for his fellow inmates!

FF I hope you get at least 10 years in prison. That way no more babies with Anna.

Of course Josh might want a young wife when he gets out. Who knows?

[Cinnabon]

22 minutes ago, iwantcookies said:

No way Anna is leaving unless JB stops paying her bills.

Josh after prison: if JB takes him home Josh will live there. If not I have no clue what the GOLDEN FF is planning to do.

I doubt he will get a degree or learn a trade…

He might have to work in prison and that makes me laugh. First time ever GOLDEN FF will clean the toilets! Maybe he will be allowed to make the FAMOUS tater tot casserole for his fellow inmates!

FF I hope you get at least 10 years in prison. That way no more babies with Anna.

Of course Josh might want a young wife when he gets out. Who knows?

What young woman would marry him???

20 minutes ago, Dehumidifier said:

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Scarlett45]

Please keep your posts on the topic of Josh, Anna & their family. Disagreement and lively discussion is fine- criticizing other posters for their opinions is not. 
 

When in doubt- think twice, post once; “I” statements, “I think, I see, I’ve noticed” etc are generally fine, “You” statements might not be. 

[JustRosie]

Will the findings of the pre-sentencing report be made public at the trial or any other time?  It would be interesting to know what the findings were. 

[ginger90]

1 hour ago, Namaste said:

Will the findings of the pre-sentencing report be made public at the trial or any other time?  It would be interesting to know what the findings were. 

Generally, no. There are exceptions, but if someone met those, it would have plenty of redactions.

I’m thinking the judge may include some of the findings during sentencing, so there’s that. 🤷🏼‍♀️

[JustRosie]

35 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

Generally, no. There are exceptions, but if someone met those, it would have plenty of redactions.

I’m thinking the judge may include some of the findings during sentencing, so there’s that. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Thank you. 

[MsJamieDornan]

On 4/12/2022 at 11:36 PM, emmawoodhouse said:

As I understand it, victims from the videos downloaded and viewed have prepared statements that are used in cases like this one. 

How would they know who the victims are. I'm sure their names aren't in the credits.

[Jeeves]

6 hours ago, MsJamieDornan said:

How would they know who the victims are. I'm sure their names aren't in the credits.

I think those victims would have been identified by investigators who tracked the materials (still photos and videos) back to their creators. I assume that there are many victims who appear in those materials who have not been identified, and TBH I don't want to do a deep dive into the subject. Obviously I don't know if any such victim statements will be proffered to the court in this case. 

[Iguessnot]

43 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

I think those victims would have been identified by investigators who tracked the materials (still photos and videos) back to their creators. I assume that there are many victims who appear in those materials who have not been identified, and TBH I don't want to do a deep dive into the subject. Obviously I don't know if any such victim statements will be proffered to the court in this case. 

Yeah, sounds like a Law & Order SVU episode but I highly doubt there is a cast of victims with prepared statements, bouncing from trial to trial.

[iwantcookies]

55 minutes ago, Iguessnot said:

Yeah, sounds like a Law & Order SVU episode but I highly doubt there is a cast of victims with prepared statements, bouncing from trial to trial.

There was a L & O SVU episode based on the Duggars 

[Iguessnot]

1 hour ago, iwantcookies said:

There was a L & O SVU episode based on the Duggars 

Yep. But the episode I'm thinking of is the one where a young lady who was exploited through porn films, was able to collect money from those who downloaded the films. Or specifically, she collected from one deep pocketed man, instead of torturing herself by going after the thousands who had downloaded the films. 

[Future Cat Lady]

My guess is that those are already written victim statements that are read by someone from the court? I really don't think the actual victims show up unless they are close to the perpetrator. The victims of are also from all over the world.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Future Cat Lady

[Zella]

58 minutes ago, Future Cat Lady said:

My guess is that those are already written victim statements that are red by someone from the court? I really don't think the actual victims show up unless they are close to the perpetrator. The victims of cam are also from all over the world.

That was my impression too. 

[MsJamieDornan]

4 hours ago, Iguessnot said:

but I highly doubt there is a cast of victims with prepared statements, bouncing from trial to trial.

I agree. And not to bring up a terrible subject but some of them were very, very young. I doubt they wrote a statement. And we don't know if the film maker was ever caught, do we ?  If he wasn't, they have no clue who was in the porn.

Just because Josh and others were caught downloading it doesn't mean the guy was caught and stopped making the stuff. Sad to think about.

[GeeGolly]

39 minutes ago, MsJamieDornan said:

I agree. And not to bring up a terrible subject but some of them were very, very young. I doubt they wrote a statement. And we don't know if the film maker was ever caught, do we ?  If he wasn't, they have no clue who was in the porn.

Just because Josh and others were caught downloading it doesn't mean the guy was caught and stopped making the stuff. Sad to think about.

Even if the 'producer' isn't caught, the victims filmed in the downloads are still identified through other means - when the can identify them. From what I understand a child could be in more than one video which narrows it down. Parents/relatives sometimes (I know, omg, awful) send video clips of their own kids and get caught. Some kids end up needing medical attention which can provide a trail. Some older kids are runaways and their pictures are sometimes available.

And unfortunately, you're right, there is always more victims and more videos.

[ginger90]

There are task forces dedicated to identifying the victims, without the maker of the videos.

There are victims who choose to be part of the judicial process when someone is charged with viewing material with them in it. They are notified each time. So yes it could involve many many cases.

 

 

 

[MsJamieDornan]

9 hours ago, ginger90 said:

There are victims who choose to be part of the judicial process when someone is charged with viewing material with them in it. They are notified each time. So yes it could involve many many cases.

So the very, very, very young choose to be part of the judicial process? And, I dont think the parents care. Obviously. jmo 

Edited April 15, 2022 by MsJamieDornan
RootBeer explained it to me.

[Scarlett45]

Please be mindful to not discuss graphic content in your posts. We all know what Josh has been charged with, graphic details are not necessary. 

[Rootbeer]

On 4/14/2022 at 3:02 PM, MsJamieDornan said:

I agree. And not to bring up a terrible subject but some of them were very, very young. I doubt they wrote a statement. And we don't know if the film maker was ever caught, do we ?  If he wasn't, they have no clue who was in the porn.

Just because Josh and others were caught downloading it doesn't mean the guy was caught and stopped making the stuff. Sad to think about.

The maker of at least one of the videos that Josh had downloaded has indeed been caught and is serving a life sentence.  The police were able to identify a couple of the kids and they have given statements as to what happened to them.  The film in question first appeared online around 2010; so the kids who were in it are old enough to give statements about what they remember.  I expect that they did give statements leading to the conviction of the film maker and those are used in other cases since it is the downloading of that particular video that is the crime; that they were indeed children and were harmed by the filming is proof enough that the video was illegal.

Edited April 16, 2022 by Rootbeer

[MsJamieDornan]

10 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

The film in question first appeared online around 2010; so the kids who were in it are old enough to give statements about what they remember. 

Thank you Rootbeer.

[Meow25]

On 4/9/2022 at 5:51 PM, lookeyloo said:

I am not an Anna fan, but, maybe in her head the world is very scary and unknown to her.  How would she even go about breaking into the mainstream world?  With no skills and 7 children facing a world that has been pushed as unsafe and ungodly.  It is like planting one of us down in a foreign country.  Even if we had money it would all still feel foreign, strange, scary.  She would not know who to trust.  We all say "come with us and we will guide you" but, she doesn't know us, trust us, I am guessing a lot of us would feel the same way in X country and strangers saying "I will help you".  Would we let them?  I would say she got herself into this predicament, but, I think she was groomed for it and convinced she wanted it.  It is a sad and confusing situation.  And, again, I am not her fan and not really defending her, because she does have those children to raise, but, am guessing she just doesn't have enough confidence, skill and resilience (and maybe desire) to break away.  Maybe not yet.

I'd agree with this, but a few of her siblings and at least one of them has reached out and offered to help her navigate life away from FF.  Anna is a sick moron.  I feel nothing but rage toward her.  She has the tools to leave,  but she won't.  she WANTS this life for her kids.  Eff her.  

Edited April 17, 2022 by Meow25
grammar

[lookeyloo]

14 hours ago, Meow25 said:

I'd agree with this, but a few of her siblings and at least one of them has reached out and offered to help her navigate life away from FF.  Anna is a sick moron.  I feel nothing but rage toward her.  She has the tools to leave,  but she won't.  she WANTS this life for her kids.  Eff her.  

Well we really don’t know the details of the offer, her relationship with siblings, or if she does have the tools. Or what JB is feeding her or what is going on Inside her own head. Look at how many domestic violence victims don’t leave for so many reasons some of us see as just a “choice”. Until they see options as a choice they make and can feel safe it won’t happen. Still not an Anna fan and not defending her except that I don’t think she is capable right now. Sad for those children mostly. 

[GeeGolly]

22 minutes ago, lookeyloo said:

Well we really don’t know the details of the offer, her relationship with siblings, or if she does have the tools. Or what JB is feeding her or what is going on Inside her own head. Look at how many domestic violence victims don’t leave for so many reasons some of us see as just a “choice”. Until they see options as a choice they make and can feel safe it won’t happen. Still not an Anna fan and not defending her except that I don’t think she is capable right now. Sad for those children mostly. 

I 100% agree with this.

And I'll also add, as far as the kids are concerned staying where they are is in their best interest. At least for now.

[MaryAnneSpier]

For Josh's sentencing, does it matter if he "viewed" the material? Just playing devil's advocate, can they claim that it was accidentally downloaded and he didn't know about it and therefore didn't indulge in it at all, thus making a lighter sentence? Or was it proven in the trial that he knowingly had it and viewed it?

[emmawoodhouse]

2 minutes ago, MaryAnneSpier said:

For Josh's sentencing, does it matter if he "viewed" the material? Just playing devil's advocate, can they claim that it was accidentally downloaded and he didn't know about it and therefore didn't indulge in it at all, thus making a lighter sentence? Or was it proven in the trial that he knowingly had it and viewed it?

It was proven that the downloaded files were opened. 

[madpsych78]

Wasn't it also indicated that these files are very hard to "accidentally" download? He had a partition and a TOR browser (which Covenant Eyes was "blind" to BTW) and everything. That tells me there was some thought that went into this.

[ginger90]

From Anna’s, “There’s more to the story” post:

In Josh’s motion for acquittal, Josh’s attorneys argued that the prosecution failed to present evidence that Josh “knew that the visual depictions were of a minor engaging in (I deleted this part) conduct.” 

Also, “The evidence at trial established that certain files allegedly found on the HP desktop computer were never viewed by any user of the computer and that all the files at issue had been deleted shortly after being downloaded.”.

[GeeGolly]

3 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

From Anna’s, “There’s more to the story” post:

In Josh’s motion for acquittal, Josh’s attorneys argued that the prosecution failed to present evidence that Josh “knew that the visual depictions were of a minor engaging in (I deleted this part) conduct.” 

Also, “The evidence at trial established that certain files allegedly found on the HP desktop computer were never viewed by any user of the computer and that all the files at issue had been deleted shortly after being downloaded.”.

And Anna chooses to believe this and that is why she's standing by the Felon.

I don't even think JB & M believe it.