Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[RedDelicious]

I/we see such sadness and apprehension in Jill and Derick's eyes. No doubt about it, today is going to be a very difficult day to get through emotionally. I like the reference above sorry in Jill's thread that her necklaces might be made by her kids. Between their tightly grasped hands and what we think might be something that represents the kids, I'm grateful that Jill has the foundation and support of her immediate family unit.  

It is my deepest hope that justice is served.

Edited December 8, 2021 by RedDelicious

[Ohiopirate02]

12 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Yeah, that makes sense. 

As a frequent juror, though, I don't like super-fast verdicts! (Go figure!)

To me a really fast verdict says they didn't take it seriously. And I think it's super-important that everybody take the deliberation seriously, for the sake of the whole system, and for the importance of getting stuff right. If a verdict comes too fast, that makes it clear the jury really didn't take a look at the evidence again to make sure they didn't miss something when it was all whizzing by in the courtroom.......And you really might have missed something -- no matter what the case is...... 

 

I agree.  I don't trust any jury who can deliberate in under an hour.  It takes time for every juror to read and comprehend the judge's instructions and the charges.  This needs to happen before anyone calls a vote.  If you are voting to send a person to prison, you need to be crystal clear about the charges.  

[GeeGolly]

14 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Someone on Reddit pointed out that she looks like she's wearing a necklaces made by her kids. 

[RedDelicious]

7 minutes ago, Trillium said:

At least Meech mixed up his Grate Value Brand water flavoring for him again (aka JB emotional support kook aid per Reddit) because you know this asshole didn’t do it himself.

Suit button faux pas on full display. I was going to say he forgot to wear his wedding band but it looks like he replaced the gold band with one of those silicone bands that come in different colors. It doesn't appear to be metal, at least I don't think.

Edited December 8, 2021 by RedDelicious

[galaxygirl76]

6 minutes ago, Trillium said:

At least Meech mixed up his Grate Value Brand water flavoring for him again (aka JB emotional support kook aid per Reddit) because you know this asshole didn’t do it himself.

He looks worried. Not his cocky self.

[mittsigirl]

Once the jury has gone to deliberate, how can they get any information that wasn't discussed by the lawyers, to help them determine a verdict? Like if they wonder what the percentages are for CSA to be completely rehabilitated so they never have urges to reoffend again? I have made up my own mind about this, but maybe someone in the jury has never read anything about this, and want to know.

[hathorlive]

4 hours ago, merylinkid said:

Goes back to their claim the time stamps are unreliable.   But now they can't prove it because their "expert"  is an idiot.

edited: because I had a crazy neighbor pull a fire alarm at 430 this morning and then proceed to scream at my entire condo floor for hours.  And because Dawes maybe a US gymnast or a governmental act stealing native lands, but a DAUBERT hearing is a judicial review of an expert witness' testimony and procedure. 

 

 Timestamps are hard.  They have to be understood in context and interpreted the right way. I had a Daubert hearing about timestamps in an attempted murder case.  First, you get the system time from the computer's BIOS.  If the OS says it's 3 and the system time says it's 4, it could be daylight's time issues.  If your system says 4pm and the OS says it's 3 hours off, it usually means the installing person hit "enter" fast through the setup and left the time zone set to Palo Alto CA when they live in NYC.   If the is off with none of these options in play, then you a system with the wrong time.   The key is researching ALL of this before going to court, where you can explain it.   

Internet activity is fun.  That's usually epochal time and comes from the server.  But epochal time is the number of nanoseconds since 16xx or 196x or 197x depending on what OS you have.  That's just a math conversion.  But you have to do the work to convert them. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by hathorlive
because words are, like, hard.

[Iguessnot]

2 minutes ago, mittsigirl said:

Once the jury has gone to deliberate, how can they get any information that wasn't discussed by the lawyers, to help them determine a verdict? Like if they wonder what the percentages are for CSA to be completely rehabilitated so they never have urges to reoffend again? I have made up my own mind about this, but maybe someone in the jury has never read anything about this, and want to know.

That has nothing to do with determining guilt for the trial at hand.

[mittsigirl]

5 minutes ago, RedDelicious said:

I/we see such sadness and apprehension in Jill and Derick's eyes. No doubt about it, today is going to be a very difficult day to get through emotionally. I like the reference above sorry in Jill's thread that her necklaces might be made by her kids. Between their tightly grasped hands and what we think might be something that represents the kids, I'm grateful that Jill has the foundation and support of her immediate family unit.  

It is my deepest hope that justice is served.

Oh, I would love it if her neckless was made by the kids! My granddaughter made a couple for me, and I always wear one when I go down to visit them, even though it was a few years ago now. I could care less what other people think when they see me wearing my mixed pasta creations because it brings joy to her little face to see me doing that:)

[Madtown]

12 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Someone on Reddit pointed out that she looks like she's wearing a necklaces made by her kids. 

 

1 minute ago, RedDelicious said:

I/we see such sadness and apprehension in Jill and Derick's eyes. No doubt about it, today is going to be a very difficult day to get through emotionally. I like the reference above that Jill's necklaces might be made by her kids. Between their tightly grasped hands and what we think might be something that represents the kids, I'm grateful that Jill has the foundation and support of her immediate family unit.  

It is my deepest hope that justice is served.

Jill looks amazing and quite powerful.

I agree, it looks like she is wearing necklaces made by the boys and I think that is so fantastic. I hope those even give her more strength.

I know there isn't much love for Amy(understandably), but she has been there for Jill and perhaps helped her crawl out of her shell a little and is definitely on her side, which Jill needs. She also has the support of Derick and his family, something she probably has never had with her lousy parents.

There isn't a lot of agreement with a lot of the things Derick says or things he supports, but even though at one point, I thought he was there for Josh, not so much.

I'm glad he went and took notes and was able let Jill know all that happened and what some things mean that she may not have understood. I almost wish she would've been able to attend the trial, just to see what she would've done. I'm glad she is there today.

Come on justice! Gulity verdict please!!!

[absnow54]

The Sun is reporting that Justin and the Spiveys are there. They also claim that Jessa is there, but haven't posted any pictures of her arriving. 

[lascuba]

When Anna and Josh Duggar walked in, they gave each other a hug, according to the Sun reporter.

Anna saw Jill (Duggar) Dillard and gave her a hug as well.

Josh, the reporter noted, went back to the gallery to give Jill a hug and to shake her husband Derrick Dillard's hand.

Justin Duggar was also seen hugging Jill, and the family members seemed "happy" to see her, with the reporter noting that everyone was complimenting her new hair.

According to the Sun reporter, Jill and Derick Dillard walked into the courtroom in the morning and sat in the first row next to Jessa (Duggar) Seewald and Jim Bob Duggar.

Jill talked to Jessa and Jim Bob, and the reporter noted it seemed serious.

Derick was seen looking straight ahead and the reporter didn't notice him speaking to anyone.

[StaceyNotStacie]

I know they banned cameras in the courtroom, but I wish they had a live video for the verdict. We really need live video footage of Smuggar and JB having a meltdown/tantrum when they hear a guilty verdict. 

[mittsigirl]

5 minutes ago, Iguessnot said:

That has nothing to do with determining guilt for the trial at hand.

Ok, thanks.

[Minivanessa]

4 minutes ago, mittsigirl said:

Once the jury has gone to deliberate, how can they get any information that wasn't discussed by the lawyers, to help them determine a verdict? Like if they wonder what the percentages are for CSA to be completely rehabilitated so they never have urges to reoffend again? I have made up my own mind about this, but maybe someone in the jury has never read anything about this, and want to know.

 

Just now, Iguessnot said:

That has nothing to do with determining guilt for the trial at hand.

^^Absolutely true!

The jury will deliberate based on the facts introduced into evidence at the trial - and that's it.

The jury while deliberating may send the judge questions along the lines of "can we see what X witness said about Y subject?" which is basically just getting clear on what the witness' testimony actually was.

Their deliberations are confined to whether the evidence introduced at trial proves the charges against Josh, using the instructions given to them by the judge. 

[Churchhoney]

5 minutes ago, mittsigirl said:

Once the jury has gone to deliberate, how can they get any information that wasn't discussed by the lawyers, to help them determine a verdict? Like if they wonder what the percentages are for CSA to be completely rehabilitated so they never have urges to reoffend again? I have made up my own mind about this, but maybe someone in the jury has never read anything about this, and want to know.

You can keep sending notes out to the judge to ask questions and ask if you can have this or that . ...That's encouraged, really.....But .... the replies are mostly "We can't tell you that." ....

The two sides are supposed to make their cases clear and detailed enough so that you can judge what your decision should be in terms of what the law says based on what they've provided.......

And any information that goes beyond that is basically irrelevant. Recidivism rates and such are a valid source of concern if you're on a committee to reevaluate sentencing guidelines or something. But as a jury, you're dealing with the law as written, period. 

[hathorlive]

1 hour ago, absnow54 said:

And wouldn't they be looking for Josh specifically because the router IP was probably registered to Josh via the Internet service provider? I think the initial goose chase was that the Internet service provider had an outdated address for Josh.

Law Enforcement has NO idea who anyone is.  An IP address is just numbers until you subpoena the ISP and get the subscriber information.  So no, there was no targeting of Josh. He had the  misfortune to be seen downloading, the misfortune to be handed off to someone who had the time to work the case, and the misfortune to be turned into a federal case.  Because he was doing illegal shit.

[mom2two]

I was on a jury many years ago , and there was video from the gas station showing the shooting, but we had to decide manslaughter, premeditated, etc.   The defense was that the shooter thought the guy trying to sell him 5 dollars worth of weed had a gun himself, when he was reaching for his cell phone.    During deliberations we did ask to watch the video a few more times.  There were one or two members who thought that  it could have been reasonable to assume the other guy had a gun, but by watching it was clear he was not a threat.     It took us about 2 hours.   I remember how shady some of the witnesses were and talking about whom we believed and did not believe. 

[mrs ra]

I was once on a civil jury. We began deliberations late morning. They had told us that lunch would be brought in if needed and passed out ordering menus. We chose our lunches. Then we decided to take a straw vote on the issue of the trial. It was a fairly clear cut case and it was unanimous. So we talked a bit but agreed to “talk” long enough to last through our “free” lunch. 

[iwantcookies]

27 minutes ago, Trillium said:

At least Meech mixed up his Grate Value Brand water flavoring for him again (aka JB emotional support kook aid per Reddit) because you know this asshole didn’t do it himself.

It’s plexus 🤣

[Minivanessa]

3 minutes ago, mrs ra said:

I was once on a civil jury. We began deliberations late morning. They had told us that lunch would be brought in if needed and passed out ordering menus. We chose our lunches. Then we decided to take a straw vote on the issue of the trial. It was a fairly clear cut case and it was unanimous. So we talked a bit but agreed to “talk” long enough to last through our “free” lunch. 

That's okay. You all earned that lunch by devoting your time to sitting through the trial, no doubt interrupting your own lives to do so. I doubt that anybody at the courthouse would begrudge you that meal. 

[hathorlive]

13 minutes ago, Madtown said:

There isn't a lot of agreement with a lot of the things Derick says or things he supports, but even though at one point, I thought he was there for Josh, not so much.

I'm glad he went and took notes and was able let Jill know all that happened and what some things mean that she may not have understood. I almost wish she would've been able to attend the trial, just to see what she would've done. I'm glad she is there today.

I get a bit of grief for this, but Derrick is doing his best to support Jill and was probably very ill equipped to get married and find out his bride was sold out by her father to her molester brother.  It's a lot to take in.  His views are not my views, but I also see that he spends a lot of time supporting Jill, so I'll do what I do at Thanksgiving and THAT Uncle starts talking politics. I just excuse myself and go to the kitchen and play with the cranberry log.  

At least there are some aspects of Derrick I can appreciate and like.  Unlike the rest of the men in this family.  I think he's furious on Jill's behalf, furious as a father and a man, and not quite sure what to do about.  I see the same thing in Austin.   The best thing for Derrick to do is be successful, bring home a paycheck and NEVER be dependent on the Duggars for anything, even a small can of Who-Hash.  

[dariafan]

13 hours ago, mynextmistake said:

I think Michelle cares about Josh and Josie, because Josh is her oldest son and Josie is walking antiabortion propaganda, and I think JB cares about Michelle. I think that neither of them cares at all about any of their other 17 kids, as evidenced by everything you said here. 

Regarding luxury mobile homes, my MIL made me go with her on a tour of a 55+ luxury mobile home community in the sun belt and some of those places were swank. 

Yeah but jb ain’t gonna be keeping those grounds swank and in tip top shape 🤣

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

As prosecutor Carly Marshall gave her closing argument, the Sun reporter noted that the mood in the courtroom felt "very sad" in regards to the Duggar family.

Jill (Duggar) Dillard looked emotional and her husband, Derick Dillard, had his arm around her.

Joy-Anna (Duggar) Forsyth also looked sad and her husband, Austin Forsyth, was "staring into space," the reporter revealed.

On Wednesday morning, closing arguments in the Josh Duggar trial began.

First, the judge read off jury rules, before the prosecution's Carly Marshall began her argument.

"Is this really a who done it?" she asked. She noted that all the evidence pointed to Josh Duggar receiving, viewing, possessing, and deleting child sexual abuse material.

She noted to the jury that it was a case of facts, evidence, and common sense.

Marshall noted that the jury had heard testimony from Amber Kalmer about May 14, 2019, and the log the jury was shown.

She noted that Kalmer detailed a video of two minors with one engaging in child sexual abuse.

Marshall showed stills of the video and went on to note Kalmer made a connection the next day with the same IP address and obtained 65 images from a known child sexual abuse material video, before showing images to the jury.

[Ohiopirate02]

7 minutes ago, mrs ra said:

I was once on a civil jury. We began deliberations late morning. They had told us that lunch would be brought in if needed and passed out ordering menus. We chose our lunches. Then we decided to take a straw vote on the issue of the trial. It was a fairly clear cut case and it was unanimous. So we talked a bit but agreed to “talk” long enough to last through our “free” lunch. 

Y'all got a free lunch?  When I was a juror, we had to pay for our lunches.  We were allowed to leave the courthouse and eat at a nearby restaurant as long as we wore a juror badge or we could bring our own and eat in the jury room.  No free lunch, but we did receive a whole whopping $15 per day.

[iwantcookies]

Of course thirsty Hilaria was there 🙄. 

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

Next, the jury was reminded, Agent Faulkner handled the case and figured out the address the IP address was associated with.

After going to the address and realizing something wasn't right, they realized it was the lot next door, and that IP subscriber was allegedly Josh Duggar.

On November 8, the search warrant on the car lot was executed. The prosecutor reminded the jury that Duggar said, "What is this about? Has someone downloaded child pornography?" during that visit.

Who was the first person to bring up child pornography, the prosecutor asked, before reminding the jury it was Duggar.

A clip from the recording of the interview between Josh Duggar and the authorities at the car lot was played for the jury.

"I'm not denying guilt," he said on the recording. "I don't want to say I'm guilty or not."

The prosecution noted that Randall Berry's phone was clear and he didn't start working at the car lot until after the dates in question.

Marshall also noted that Caleb Williams wasn't in the same state, and that William Mize's phone was also clear.

[crazy8s]

3 minutes ago, dariafan said:

Yeah but jb ain’t gonna be keeping those grounds swank and in tip top shape 🤣

for the record - it is a luxury RV park JB was going to build, not mobile homes

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

The prosecutor then reminded the jury of Fottrell's testimony and how he walked them through evidence.

Evidence included Linux being downloaded to the HP computer on May 11, 2019, with a password of JoshuaJJD, and a picture taken with Duggar's phone at the car lot.

They also went over the Dell_One username setup and Intel1988 password, which the prosecution reminded the jury was a password Duggar had been using for years.

She claimed whoever set up the partition had to be there to do it.

The jury was also reminded that Hidden Wiki was bookmarked in the Tor browser, suggesting that someone made it to go back to it later.

[Minivanessa]

8 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Y'all got a free lunch?  When I was a juror, we had to pay for our lunches.  We were allowed to leave the courthouse and eat at a nearby restaurant as long as we wore a juror badge or we could bring our own and eat in the jury room.  No free lunch, but we did receive a whole whopping $15 per day.

In my experience the jury is released to do lunch on their own during the trial. But if the trial is done and they are deliberating through a mealtime the court will provide lunch for them in some fashion, usually having something delivered. Obviously, different practices may apply in different places.

ETA: The idea behind providing meals to a deliberating jury is IMO about keeping them together and not exposed to random other people in the courthouse or elsewhere. Obviously if they don't reach a verdict by the end of a day they will go home, unless it's one of those extremely rare cases where they are by court order sequestered together in a hotel. So there's that, but at least while at the courthouse the court will try to keep them together as much as possible.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Jeeves

[Jeanne222]

1 hour ago, Lindsay Loo Hoo said:

as long as it's not that monstrosity with the zippers on the boobs again.

I think the black Nike sweatshirt runs a close second!

[3 is enough]

5 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Y'all got a free lunch?  When I was a juror, we had to pay for our lunches.  We were allowed to leave the courthouse and eat at a nearby restaurant as long as we wore a juror badge or we could bring our own and eat in the jury room.  No free lunch, but we did receive a whole whopping $15 per day.

I served on a jury 10 years ago.  It was a criminal  drug case. The first day we were allowed to leave the courthouse and we paid for our own lunches.  The second day we were deliberating and lunch was brought into the room for us .  We did not pay for that.  I think I got $40 a day- total of $120 plus my parking fees paid.

I really hope the jury reaches a verdict quickly.  Although the thought of Josh spending a night wondering what will happen has a certain appeal too.

 

[iwantcookies]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/josh-duggar-trial-jury-deliberations/

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

Marshall then spoke of the photo from May 14, 2019, that seemed to show someone's reflection in the computer screen.

At 4.14pm, a photo was taken at the car lot. At 4.49, Duggar texted saying he got stuck there. Within minutes, a webcam collection was downloaded to the Tor browser and a few minutes after that, it was viewed.

At 5.28pm, a movie torrent file was downloaded on Linux. Then a second movie file was downloaded.

Minutes after that, Duggar texted someone saying he had a Versa at the car lot.

Marshall also showed the photo of Josh and Anna Duggar at Lowes with Josh allegedly wearing the same hat from the computer reflection photo.

The jury was also walked through evidence from May 15 of videos on the computer and when texts were sent from Josh Duggar's phone.

Marshall also showed them an image from one child sexual abuse material file in question.

She asked the jury who was there on May 15 before, during, and after that evidence was taking place, and named Joshua Duggar.

She noted a CSAM file downloaded to the partition on May 16 as well.

[Tikichick]

30 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

You can keep sending notes out to the judge to ask questions and ask if you can have this or that . ...That's encouraged, really.....But .... the replies are mostly "We can't tell you that." ....

The two sides are supposed to make their cases clear and detailed enough so that you can judge what your decision should be in terms of what the law says based on what they've provided.......

And any information that goes beyond that is basically irrelevant. Recidivism rates and such are a valid source of concern if you're on a committee to reevaluate sentencing guidelines or something. But as a jury, you're dealing with the law as written, period. 

The sentence isn't in the jury's purview and should not come into deliberations in any way.   Jury is the finder of fact and the sentencing (if any) is left up to the judge.

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

Marshall noted that the next time there was activity behind the partition, on June 22, 2019, there was a document with Josh Duggar's name on it, adding that someone also texted on his phone from the car lot on that day.

She asked the jury who was at the car lot every time the partition was accessed and CSAM downloaded, and named Duggar.

Marshall told the jury the evidence showed it was beyond reasonable doubt.

She claimed Duggar viewed the files, possessed them, and knew he had them.

[RedDelicious]

Incredibly powerful closing arguments. I am chilled to the bone and so anxious.

[jcbrown]

21 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

I get a bit of grief for this, but Derrick is doing his best to support Jill and was probably very ill equipped to get married and find out his bride was sold out by her father to her molester brother.  It's a lot to take in.  His views are not my views, but I also see that he spends a lot of time supporting Jill, so I'll do what I do at Thanksgiving and THAT Uncle starts talking politics. I just excuse myself and go to the kitchen and play with the cranberry log.  

At least there are some aspects of Derrick I can appreciate and like.  Unlike the rest of the men in this family.  I think he's furious on Jill's behalf, furious as a father and a man, and not quite sure what to do about.  I see the same thing in Austin.   The best thing for Derrick to do is be successful, bring home a paycheck and NEVER be dependent on the Duggars for anything, even a small can of Who-Hash.  

I could not like this more than once so I quoted you to express how much I agree. I think Derrick's views are reprehensible on many things but he does--from my vantage point--seem to be doing the best he can to support Jill. 

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

Marshall noted that the defense would claim no one knows "who did this."

But she asked the jury whether the evidence showed it was a remote access or hacking case, or whether it showed Joshua Duggar was behind the computer possessing, receiving, and viewing child pornography.

"Details matter," she noted, adding that the pictures, texts, and locations all matter.

She told the jury the facts, evidence, and common sense all showed Duggar was the person responsible for receiving and possessing CSAM.

Marshall asked the jury to hold Duggar accountable and find him guilty of "receiving and possessing explicit photos of children."

At that point, the trial took a short break.

Following the break, which has ended, the defense was set to make its closing argument.

Updates from the trial are expected soon.

[Churchhoney]

20 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

The sentence isn't in the jury's purview and should not come into deliberations in any way.   Jury is the finder of fact and the sentencing (if any) is left up to the judge.

Yes. I didn't mean to imply that it was -- In fact, I was trying to stress the opposite! But I can see that I may not have succeeded! 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Churchhoney

[RedDelicious]

<<<<<Good vibrations everybody, let's bring it!!>>>>>

🍊

[merylinkid]

33 minutes ago, Lindsay Loo Hoo said:

On November 8, the search warrant on the car lot was executed. The prosecutor reminded the jury that Duggar said, "What is this about? Has someone downloaded child pornography?" during that visit.

Who was the first person to bring up child pornography, the prosecutor asked, before reminding the jury it was Duggar.

A clip from the recording of the interview between Josh Duggar and the authorities at the car lot was played for the jury.

"I'm not denying guilt," he said on the recording. "I don't want to say I'm guilty or not."

This is GOLD.    "who brought up child pornoggraphy, why the guy who is on trial."

9 minutes ago, Lindsay Loo Hoo said:

Marshall noted that the defense would claim no one knows "who did this."

But she asked the jury whether the evidence showed it was a remote access or hacking case, or whether it showed Joshua Duggar was behind the computer possessing, receiving, and viewing child pornography.

"Details matter," she noted, adding that the pictures, texts, and locations all matter.

Aslo this.   "No one knows who did this?   Someone was SITTING RIGHT THERE when it all happened.   Let's not play games here."

[Nysha]

34 minutes ago, crazy8s said:

38 minutes ago, dariafan said:

Yeah but jb ain’t gonna be keeping those grounds swank and in tip top shape 🤣

for the record - it is a luxury RV park JB was going to build, not mobile homes

Even better. When the money is all gone the kids can all buy used RVs and park them at the unfinished lot for that true redneck compound look. 

[CandyCaneTree]

Please hurry up with the verdict because I have to go to the ER and I am putting the ER off.

[hathorlive]

Just now, CandyCaneTree said:

Please hurry up with the verdict because I have to go to the ER and I am putting the ER off.

Go to the ER!!!  It takes a while for closing arguments, the jury to be moved to the jury room, and for them to deliberate and fill out forms. 

[CandyCaneTree]

Just now, hathorlive said:

Go to the ER!!!  It takes a while for closing arguments, the jury to be moved to the jury room, and for them to deliberate and fill out forms. 

Ok own my way.

[MsJamieDornan]

6 minutes ago, Nysha said:

When the money is all gone the kids can all buy used RVs and park them at the unfinished lot for that true redneck compound look. 

Can they park the stink bus there also? To add much needed class.

 

[RedDelicious]

17 minutes ago, MsJamieDornan said:

Can they park the stink bus there also? To add much needed class.

 

And park Stink Bus 2 right next to it, if it still exists 😜

[CountryGirl]

14 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Jill and Joy both look very sad. I don't really care anymore whether they "forgive" Josh or want him to be acquitted. It might make their lives easier to forgive. I just know that Josh and Boob are the biggest pieces of shit for causing so much pain to people they're supposed to love.

I wonder if they have framed forgiveness as I have (the first time I heard it expressed this way was on Oprah and it resonated): Forgiveness is letting go of the hope that the past would have been different.

For me, forgiveness is not at all about the other person, the one who hurt you. It's something you give yourself. The peace with never forgetting, never condoning, but accepting that it happened, it wasn't your fault, and releasing it.

[starfire]

Is Josh and Anna's house in their name or in Jimbobs? If Josh gets the potential fines of $250,000 x 2, could his house be seized and will Anna be potentially homeless with 7 kids?