S02.E13: Dragonfly in Amber

[Atlanta]

Sophie's acting was a little off, but I gather that she'll grow into the role (she's so pretty!). Glad she's got an American accent. Perhaps it's because Davina Porter narrates her as American that I like they included it. ;) Loved Richard as Roger. This show has done such a great job of casting unknown talent. It's been awhile since I've read DiA so the changes from book to TV didn't bother me. Yes, the MacKenzie research seemed out of the blue, but they had to cram a lot of stuff in. Don't think Claire went gray until later in the series, but they had to age Cait somehow. Loved Lotte and felt for her poor husband.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Atlanta

[Dejana]

1 hour ago, Atlanta said:

Don't think Claire went gray until later in the series, but they had to age Cait somehow. Loved Lotte and felt for her poor husband.

When Claire returns to the past and meets the family at Lallybroch, Jamie's young great-nieces/nephews marvel at her reappearance and one asks if she's as old as their grandmother. Jamie says Claire is even older and they can't believe it, noting that she hardly has any silver hair. I pictured Claire having a bit of gray visible by then, though not very much for a woman in her early 50s letting nature take its course, and not nearly as much as Jenny at that point. The style of it is off compared to Book Claire, but for TV, they probably figured that sort of bouffant would read as an older woman's hairdo to a 2016 audience and help sell us on Cait as the mother of an adult.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Dejana

[WatchrTina]

THE GOOD

I was puzzled at first by the title card & opening scene.  The sad look on Roger’s face and all the children watching TV made no sense – until it did.  That was genius.

The quick reveal of Claire at the wake was terrific.  I wish I hadn’t been spoiled for her new look.

The subtle shift in Roger’s tone of voice when speaking of Fiona and when speaking to her is very well done.  I appreciate the hint of tension it reveals – a nice nod to the readers who know about her intentions.  Richard Rankin is going to be terrific in this role.  I loved every single line reading he delivered in this episode.

As a follow-up to my point above, both Richard and Cait are terrific in the in the scene where they talk about getting over the loss of the person you love the most in the world.

I really like the musical transitions with the 60s music when they hard-cut back to Roger & Brianna. 

That vision of Jamie at Lallybroch while Claire's voiceover reads the love poem that BookHugh sent to BookClaire just broke my heart.

Sheesh, the scenery when Roger & Bree picnic by the loch is just breathtaking.

I liked that Dougal called Jamie an “Ungrateful son of a bastard” rather than the more common expression “son of a bitch” since to use that expression would be to call his own sister a bitch (and Jamie’s father WAS, literally, a bastard.)

Geillis!!!  I presumed she’d be back but I’m glad it was in such a substantial way.  And I applaud the way the writers revised the story to have Brianna & Roger meet her and to have Claire steal the books from a drunken husband rather than burglarizing the historical society.

This is shallow but Cait wears a fitted cashmere sweater like nobody’s business.  All her 60’s costumes were amazingly flattering.

Roger trying in vain to duck out of that argument between Brianna & Claire is a wonderful note of humor in an otherwise super-tense episode.

Murtagh’s reaction to Jamie’s declaration that he’s “killed Dougal MacKenzie” is just so perfect.

“My mother’s insane.”  That was a perfect line reading by Sophie.

Jamie & Murtagh’s last scene: “I won’t be [dying for nothing]. I’ll be dying with you.”  Oh. My. God.  Heart = Breaking.

“Lord ye gave me a rare woman.  And God I loved her well.” <sigh> I don’t have to riot after all.

I’m perfectly fine with the changes they made to the goodbye scene at the stones.  Jamie holding Claire as she touches the stone is much more romantic than Claire being chased by a red-coat.  And you know what this means – Jamie actually SEES her go.  They finally fixed the mistake they made when Jamie failed to see Claire “fade” when he took her back to Craigh na Dun after the witch trial.

I’m not crazy about the final scene (I thought the reveal about Jamie surviving Culloden was handled better in the book) but I did love the camera move to take the viewers to the stone with the fade to black.  Good way to end the season.

 

THE BAD

Brianna asking “Are you Roger Wakefield?” moments after watching him give a toast to his late father at his father’s wake is pretty lame writing.  How could she NOT know who he was at that point?

In fairness, the line above may be badly written but it may also simply be badly delivered.  I am pretty disappointed with the actress they cast as Brianna.  I know she’s young and maybe she’ll improve but in this episode she stuck out like a sore thumb among the natural and believable performances that the other actors are delivering

I wish Claire had found Roger’s family tree on the Reverend’s bulletin board like in the book rather than obtaining it from the local county records office.  That kind of research takes time and the ease with which Claire obtained the info is completely unrealistic.  The Reverend taking the time to research it for Roger makes much more sense.

I found Claire’s telling a perfect stranger that Bonnie Prince Charlie was a fool while standing in the Culloden memorial center to be uncharacteristically impolitic.  Scottish Nationalism is depicted as being on the rise in that time.  Bashing BPC in that time and that place – and doing it with an English accent – seems rather foolhardy.

I generally love Grant O’Rourke’s portrayal of Rupert but the scene where Rupert finds Jamie straddling Dougal’s body holding a dripping knife did not ring true to me.  I just do not believe he could turn around and walk out of a room where the body of his murdered friend and chieftain is lying on the floor in a pool of blood.

In episode 201 Claire looks for Jamie’s ring in her bodice after she comes through the stones.  In this episode he puts it on her finger.  Continuity gaff!

 

THE UGLY

Dougal fights ugly.  Not a surprise.

 

OTHER

I’m sorry that the scene at the stones in the 60s is so much less dramatic than in the book.  BookRoger collapses and is involuntarily crawling toward the stones until Brianna stops him.  Claire collapses completely.  The power of the stones is so much more compellingly depicted in the books than on TV.   I appreciate how difficult it would be to visually depict a phenomenon that is mainly experienced by the characters as sound and feelings and mental confusion.  Still it’s a pity that TV viewers cannot experience the menacing atmosphere of the stones the same way the book readers do.

Edited July 10, 2016 by WatchrTina

[Petunia846]

I have almost as much gray as they've given Claire, and in the same place too, and I'm only in my 30s, so compared to Jenny I'm sure she'll look miraculous.

I gave in and watched the episode again. I never do that, well not a middle time. I always watch when I wake up Saturday and then usually watch again "live" to do Twitter, but I couldn't wait until 9 to do the first rewatch.

I listened closely and I see I was wrong about the comment to Bree about being named after Brian. I was actually thinking about the scene in the guest room after the arguement where Bree asks her to tell her about Jamie. But there Claire just says, "His father's name was Brian and that's where your name came from." I didn't even notice the "named after your father, just as I promised," at Culloden the first time I watched.

Also, Richard/Roger's facial expressions kill me. He's entirely too adorable. I love how hard he's trying to be cool in front of Bree while they're touring around. Cracks me up. And then it gradually shifts into a deeper empathy and care for her as things get crazier. Love how they managed to show that progression in just this one episode.

And my god, sweet baby Fergus, I just want to smoosh him. So sweet. And yes, Murtagh's bow to him is the best.

I watched the last scene just yelling "And...cut" over and over again. There are like 5 different places where they could have cut that earlier that would have made it better. Oh well.

9 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I liked that Dougal called Jamie an “Ungrateful son of a bastard” rather than the more common expression “son of a bitch” since to use that expression would be to call his own sister a bitch (and Jamie’s father WAS, literally, a bastard.)

Yes, I meant to say that too! Nice little touch.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Petunia846

[Atlanta]

Oh, Roger and Fergus. How I love thee! Hopefully Sophie will improve while acting opposite such talented actors. Bree was a bit bratty (and sort of stayed that way until recently). Sort of felt that Roger took a lot of guff from her. He's got the patience of a saint. Rik really brought it. 

[Wouldofshouldof]

51 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I’m not crazy about the final scene (I thought the reveal about Jamie surviving Culloden was handled better in the book) but I did love the camera move to take the viewers to the stone with the fade to black.  Good way to end the season.

Oh, that reminds me - They didn't include the scene where Claire finds Jamie's headstone.  Her knowledge of that stone has implications later on. Of course, maybe they'll show that next season.

 

ETA: Thank God for you guys - I would never have known to follow CB & SH on Twitter tonight.  I have an account but have never actually used Twitter - do I just click on one or the other of them and sit back and enjoy, or how does it work?

Edited July 9, 2016 by Wouldofshouldof

[Petunia846]

If you're just on Twitter.com and you're logged in and you've followed them, their tweets should show up on your feed/timeline as they occur. (Well, it'll say there's a new tweet as they appear and you can just click to show it.)

[Sew Sumi]

What is Cait's twitter? I don't see an account under her name. 

[toolazy]

Every time that there's something missing and we think "but won't that be important later?" we should consider that the answer might be no.  The answer might be that they have worked out a way to get where they need to get without that specific element.  

For instance, the headstone serves three purposes in the book.  The first, to let Claire know that Jamie didn't die at Culloden and to prompt her to tell Bree & Roger about Jamie are unnecessary because we've gotten there by other means.  The second, to make Claire worry when she thinks Jamie will need to go back to Scotland to get settlers is probably unnecessary and possibly too internal to work well on TV.  The third is to let them know that Frank was all over this - that he knew and believed what Claire told him about Jamie but again, we can easily get there without the headstone.  After all, there is at least one letter that Bree finds from Frank discussing this very thing.  

 

Edit: It's possible that this isn't the best place for this post but given that the headstone is something readers halfway expected, I'm thinking it might be okay.

Edited July 10, 2016 by toolazy

[Wouldofshouldof]

Thanks Petunia.  I have to follow her then.  

Sew Sumi, it's @caitrionambalfe.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Wouldofshouldof

[Sew Sumi]

Thanks. I think I had a typo when I first searched. I looked again and found out that I'm already following her! Oops! 

eta: I watched this morning, and being on the west coast, can pay attention to the live tweets and watch again at 9 Pacific. Win win! 

I agree that the ending was cheesy, but I get why they did it with the sunrise, a positive connotation of hope contrasting with Gellis' sketchy late-night ritual. 

Edited July 10, 2016 by Sew Sumi

[maraleia]

Other than Cait who was listed above here is a link to all the other people's social media accounts

http://www.outlandertvnews.com/2013/08/official-twitter-accounts-and-facebook-pages-of-outlander-cast-and-crew/

and Roman who was left off the list @romannberrux

Have fun everyone!

One more thing...I wonder if the writers were getting the viewers used to seeing Claire and Jamie apart since they aren't together as much in Voyager. Book readers let me know if I'm on to something.

Edited July 10, 2016 by maraleia

[Dust Bunny]

Watching live. Just caught something new. BPC quotes Jesus' "blessed are those who have not seen but believe." The next line is Jamie's "It's a blessing Colum didn't live to see this day." That's some good writing there. I really love how they (and Diana) write Jamie's faith. BPC has the words, but Jamie has the spirit.

[Sew Sumi]

Cait says her 60's look was inspired by The Graduate. coo-coo-ca-choo :D

[ulkis]

I was a little surprised they resisted having a Dr Who episode on.

You know what I was also kinda surprised at, I thought they grew Jamie's hair long so he could cut it before the duel.

One line I kinda regret missing is "damn all Randalls!"

re: Bree not being quite as tall as Claire, I wonder if they did that on purpose. imo it would be a little harder to buy the two as mother-daughter if she's towering over Claire. 

@WatchrTina, I think they implied Bree was kinda wandering around during Roger's toast, unless I missed her standing in the room. Or maybe she felt it was easier to segue to an introduction that way. 

[vesperholly]

20 hours ago, ulkis said:

Was she doing a credible Boston accent? Maybe that's why it didn't sound right to me, I'm not very familiar with it.

To me, definitely not - and I don't just mean stereotypical Baahstahn accent. It didn't have any midcentury clipped-ness either. She has an OK general American accent, so they should have skipped the specification of Boston. Here's a clip from 1961 of a girl from Boston being interviewed (at 6:55 if the video doesn't automatically go there): 

Roger sounds just like David Tennant. *swoon*

Agree with all the others that Breanna was the only disappointment here.. Perhaps it was the lines but she just came off so bratty and almost unlikable. Even before the Jamie reveal, I didn't like her in the scenes with Roger. It was a shallow character reading from the actress. The show has been remarkable in casting talented actors who immediately inhabited their characters and made you care for them, even for the minor roles. The actress just seemed way out of her depth.

Edited July 10, 2016 by vesperholly

[Quickbeam]

Finally saw the episode. Overall I liked it. Claire's 60's look was pitch perfect. The only sour note for me is Brianna's casting. The actor just does not work for me. I wish they had been able to find a larger actor to play the role. More like the woman who plays Brienne on GOT but with red hair. 

Edited July 10, 2016 by Quickbeam
Auto correct error

[Sew Sumi]

Oh man, as a lifelong skating fan, I teared up when I realized that was a Laurence Vinson Owen video. :(

The live tweet is entertaining! DG is also tweeting...from a ship floating down the Rhine. 

[maraleia]

12 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Oh man, as a lifelong skating fan, I teared up when I realized that was a Laurence Vinson Owen video. :(

The live tweet is entertaining! DG is also tweeting...from a ship floating down the Rhine. 

Live tweeting is fun...I've done it with The Fosters almost every week.

[Sew Sumi]

No way! A friend of mine is a writer on The Fosters! :)

[maraleia]

10 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

No way! A friend of mine is a writer on The Fosters! :)

Which friend?

Also, is there something we find out later as to why Claire can hear the buzzing and travel through the stones but Jamie can't? I understand why Gellis and Roger can- they are related but there has to be something in Claire's family history that points to this ability.

[Miss Slay]

I've been wanting to quit this show all season and then very few episodes they would come back with an epic episode. The finale was no exception - it was fabulous. I loved everything about it - the use of flashbacks. Claire and Jamie. Tying in the daughter. Classic Outlander. 

I'll be back next season.

[Empressv]

The group has covered most of the major points, so I'll just add a couple:

• I wasn't spoiled for Claire's modern hairdo, and so I completely failed to recognize her! 
• Roger reminded me a bit of a young Paul McCartney. 
• I went to college in Massachusetts. That wasn't even close to a Boston accent - more of a standard American broadcasting accent. And like others here, I was disappointed at the actress's stature and lack of resemblance to SH - but whatchagonnado? I once saw a 5-foot-7 actor play Malcolm X (who was quite tall), and he was utterly believable in that part. Maybe Sophie will make Brianna her own character too.  

[Sew Sumi]

The wax BPC.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cm-FVcwXEAUZfHv.jpg:large

[vesperholly]

55 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Oh man, as a lifelong skating fan, I teared up when I realized that was a Laurence Vinson Owen video. :(

Skating fan here too (clearly) ... I was hoping the video would zip to the interview portion so heartbreak would be at a minimum. Even so, the bit about preparing for Worlds :*(

[Archery]

Bree's accent was fine.  It wouldn't ever be authentic Boston because her parents are British.  

I didn't recognize Claire at the wake until she spoke.

Very satisfying season ender.

[Avaleigh]

This episode was so great for me that I'm giving in and will be joining the ranks of the other book readers because I have too many questions and refuse to wait a year to get the next chapter in this tale.

I can't believe how wrecked and emotional I was during that goodbye scene. These were English Patient/Gone with the Wind/Imitation of Life sized tears and sobs. Like thirty plus minutes of crying at the thought of Claire and Jaime not being able to raise their baby together among other details. I'm still not quite over it lol.

Even though we had that earlier flashback where we see a young Brianna, I still had hope that she'd go back earlier somehow. 

Dougal's heartbreak got to me too. I found him to be a super compelling character and am very curious to know what his book counterpart is like.

I also cried like a baby over Fergus knowing that they see him as their son. That young actor has really moved me throughout the season.

Damn, I went from being a casual viewer to a FAN in one episode. I'm going to rewatch the series as I read.

Thank you, Starz! Thank you, showrunners! Thanks too to all of the posters who've answered my questions in the past. I am officially hooked.

[Glaze Crazy]

52 minutes ago, maraleia said:

Also, is there something we find out later as to why Claire can hear the buzzing and travel through the stones but Jamie can't? I understand why Gellis and Roger can- they are related but there has to be something in Claire's family history that points to this ability.

In a later book in a discussion about inherited traits (like two parents with blue eyes don't make a brown eyed child, LOL) Claire speculates that it might be a "gene" you get from one of both of your parents and it either works or is doesn't. They go on to speculate how strong the ability is, based on how many copies of the gene you get. Or something. It's magic. ;-)

Edited July 10, 2016 by Glaze Crazy
words

[Nidratime]

Somebody on a podcast said that the director of this night's episode, as well as last, is an indie director. This last episode felt kind of like an indie shoot. Interesting.

[chocolatetruffle]

Loved it. Loved everything that has been mentioned already: stones, 1968, Murtagh, Roger & Bree.  I can't stand Bree at this point in the books, but this actress really gave the character a lot of depth and made me empathize w/ her situation. The stones were EVERYTHING - just perfect especially the bookend Jamie pushing Claire's hand so they did it together the way she pushed his hand when they killed Dougal together.

I only have one thing to add. Murtaugh said he was coming back to die with Jamie.  Well Jamie doesn't die folks, therefore, mark me, Murtagh doesn't die either.  #saveMurtaugh for the win in season 3.

[nodorothyparker]

What a convoluted mess of pacing.  There were lots of nice individual set pieces, but I'm honestly surprised they didn't find a way to shoehorn at least one of Tobias Menzies' characters in so they could manage to give us even less time at the stones.

[Nidratime]

Cool counterpoint: Claire helps Jamie kill Dougal and Jamie helps Claire through the stones.

[Madra Dubh]

7 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

What a convoluted mess of pacing.  There were lots of nice individual set pieces, but I'm honestly surprised they didn't find a way to shoehorn at least one of Tobias Menzies' characters in so they could manage to give us even less time at the stones.

I have to agree somewhat on the pacing. I liked many moments in the episode, but the flashbacks were done in such fragments that it felt distancing and broke the momentum of the scenes for me. 

[theschnauzers]

In the other episode thread it was asked:

Quote

I think Jamie will have the beard. but here's hoping he doesn't. 

I'm not clear whether Jamie ever grows a beard in Voyager during his imprisonment after Culloden and before Lord John Gray becomes the Governor of that prison; but I seem to recall he gets to shave and bathe before his weekly dinners with the governor of the prison, so it's probably not more than the stubble growth Jamie has outside of the period in France when he wasn't in the Bastille, where he was clean shaven.

[DancingD]

Well I loved most of it, but Brianna kept taking me out of the scenes. Maybe because she's a Brit doing an American accent, but she just didn't fit with this cast of excellent actors. I'm sorry, but she should be taller, have light eyes, actually look like a natural redhead. And be beautiful. Having a facial structure like Sam Heughan is just not enough. Felt bad for Roger (who is nearly perfect) for having to carry some scenes by himself. Sophie was giving me flashbacks to Lennon Stella on Nashville. 

Yeah, I loved Brianna in the books, was really looking forward to seeing her on the series. I'm sure they could have found a tall, gorgeous American redhead who can act. 

[Squirrely]

I loved every bit, other than 2 things. That ending was hokey as hell. Please tell me they did that on purpose to snap some of us out of our bawling fits! I was a hot mess, and then that ending happened. I got second-hand embarrassment for everyone involved in that making it into the episode! 

My other nitpick was the genealogy search. You'd be lucky to get something that quickly in this day and age! What was wrong with finding his family tree on the board? Claire vaguely remembering the names from seeing it before made so much more sense than hearing a surname that is insanely popular and assuming he must be a distant relative!

Okay, I lied. My third nitpick is a 2 parter: WHY were Claire and Bree in London? And when did they decide to go from staying one night to essentially moving into the manse? A throwaway line about staying longer to see the sights would have sufficed, other than Bree's mention of exploring, as she didn't say they were staying more than one night to do so. 

Oh, Dougal! Knowing it was coming didn't make it any easier. I had to look away, so I didn't realize Claire helped Jamie end him. 

That goodbye between J&C was beautifully done. Cait amazes me with the emotion she can portray with just her eyes. She's a real gem. And I had to pause it and compose myself when I realized he was guiding her into the stone. And the infamous line! *swoon*

Edited July 10, 2016 by Squirrely

[ruby24]

Sad to say this, but Sophie Skelton is truly terrible. This couldn't possibly have been the best person who auditioned for this role. Roger was great, but he was carrying all those scenes by himself. That girl can't deliver a line to save her life. It sticks out in a cast with such great actors. I'm officially concerned.

I've watched a lot of TV shows, and the truth is I really can't think of a case where a really bad actor improved much over the course of a series. You have to have something to start with, some kind of screen presence at least. This girl doesn't have that and also can't deliver lines convincingly. That's worrisome.

[Pestilentia]

2 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Sad to say this, but Sophie Skelton is truly terrible. This couldn't possibly have been the best person who auditioned for this role.

Seems to me that they cast on facial characteristics alone, trying to find someone who looks like Jamie without considering her experience or abilities. She may mature into the roll but she'd better start working out that upper body if she expects to be building all those pipes and plumbing in the new world. Just sayin'.

Quote

I had tried to imagine how Sam would utter the "I loved her well" speech but his deliverance exceeded anything I came up with.  I had to rewatch that immediately.

I think that moment was some of Sam's finest work on this show. He's come a long way as an actor IME- he was Jamie at that moment and I haven't always been able to say that. That scene was perfection.

Quote

Also loved the whole scene at Lallybroch with all the voices and her seeing the image of Jamie at the gate arch.

My first sob was when Jamie appeared in the arch. That was beautiful.

As I had been pre-grieving the loss of many of "my boys" all during the past two weeks I was happy that we didn't get too much stabbing and dying on the bleak moor of Culloden. I guess that can come later. What we did get was the stabbing and dying of Dougal, and IMO McTavish has knocked his uber-emotional scenes out of the park these past two weeks. He plays conflicted very well, and while I am sorry to see him go I think his career is on a whole new trajectory now, so on to Preacher we go where he plays what is probably one of the most ultimately powerful characters ever written.

Murtagh and Fergus just make me silly with love, both of them. We need this dynamic duo together next season, and I hope the higher ups recognize this need. #savemurtagh indeed, lord I love that man.

And I have to say that the casting of Roger was so spot on that I don't even have words- it's as if he walked right off the pages of the book onto the screen. I had to make mental adjustments for Claire, for Jamie, for Murtagh- for most of them, but Roger looked and acted exactly as he did in the books. He's going to be a real pleasure to watch in the coming seasons.

As far as the last scene being cheesy, TV has a long history of being anvilicious and underestimating it's viewers and this scene may be one of the the most egregious examples of that yet. We know what she's thinking, no need to literally paint it for us with Crayola crayons. All that was missing was a parade of thought bubbles saying "Jamie survived!!" and "I have to go back to him!!"

You're better than that, show.

However, you gave me Murtagh and Fergus characters far and above my expectations so I guess we're even now but jeez that was distracting.

[Haleth]

First thing, Mrs Peel!  Nice crossover with Game of Thrones.  I said in a spoiler thread that in a preview pic Claire looked like Mrs Robinson, but the hair was also channeling Mrs Peel.

11 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Cait says her 60's look was inspired by The Graduate. coo-coo-ca-choo :D

I knew it!  Yay, me!

Anyway, as for the show, I loved it.  As usual Cait knocked it out of the park with all of her highly emotional scenes.  She might not have been crying when visiting Jamie at Culloden, but I was bawling.  And same for the ruined Lallybroch scene.  And their scene at the stones.  

Bree?  Meh.  She annoys me in the books so kudos to Sophie for annoying me on the show?  Loved Roger though.  I do look forward to them meeting Jamie, well, after all the wacky highjinx that keep them apart.

9 hours ago, Glaze Crazy said:

Also, is there something we find out later as to why Claire can hear the buzzing and travel through the stones but Jamie can't? I understand why Gellis and Roger can- they are related but there has to be something in Claire's family history that points to this ability.

I'm really glad they established that not everyone can pass through the stones, and that (as far as we know at this point) only people related to Claire or Geillis can.  It's too bad they didn't make it clearer how painful it is to do though.  

9 hours ago, chocolatetruffle said:

I only have one thing to add. Murtaugh said he was coming back to die with Jamie.  Well Jamie doesn't die folks, therefore, mark me, Murtagh doesn't die either.  #saveMurtaugh for the win in season 3.

 Hear, hear!

[Wouldofshouldof]

10 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

This episode was so great for me that I'm giving in and will be joining the ranks of the other book readers because I have too many questions and refuse to wait a year to get the next chapter in this tale.

Yay!  You won't regret it!  I binged watched S1 the week before S2 aired, then started reading the books after S2 ep2.  In the span of 1 season I read 7 1/2 of the books (plus The Scottish Prisoner).  I'm trying to make #8 last as long as I can so the wait for #9 won't be too bad.  Do check in with the book discussion threads after you read each one.  It's a way to prolong the pleasure  : )

Edited July 10, 2016 by Wouldofshouldof

[AheadofStraight]

12 hours ago, ulkis said:

I was a little surprised they resisted having a Dr Who episode on.

 

In a recent interview, I saw that the writers did look at having either Dr. Who or Star Trek but neither were airing in Scotland in 1968.(It may have been that the particular episode of Dr. Who they wanted to use, the one that inspired the show, hadn't yet aired)

 

11 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

This episode was so great for me that I'm giving in and will be joining the ranks of the other book readers because I have too many questions and refuse to wait a year to get the next chapter in this tale.

Welcome to the fold. I read all 8 books during the break in season 1. (I love the J&C relationship soooo much more in the books.) Enjoy! Will you read books 1 & 2? Book 3 has my favorite scene of the entire book series.

Edited July 10, 2016 by AheadofStraight

[AheadofStraight]

Thought I pass along this commentary from Diana on compuserve - the first is about how the show didn't show that J&C decided NOT to kill Dougal first. The second is about the cheesy ending - someone commented that it looked like she was willing to immediately abandon her daughter.

 

Quote

It was the scene where Claire comes up with the notion to kill Charles Stuart.  As first written (and filmed), they had her declaring, "I'll put this in his tea and give it to him right now."

     I said a number of things <cough>, but my point was that Claire is a healer, not the Angel of Death, and there is a) no way she could just pull that one out of thin air with no hesitation whatever, or b) that Jamie wouldn't be appalled at the idea.  Talk about mortal sin, Catholics, etc., but mostly--that's a complete abnegation of Claire's central essence, as well as a contradiction of what happens in the book (pointing out that there's a _reason_ why they stopped at the brink of the moral abyss, rather than leaping in feet-first).

    Ron, to his credit, got it, and while they wouldn't/couldn't refilm the scene, he did do what I asked him to, and ADR'd the dialogue so that she's just mentioning the possibility--and sounding horrified herself _at_ the possibiilty, rather than airily declaring her intent to commit immediate murder.

     I imagine that's a point that might not have struck everyone (there are always the bloodthirsty who'd be, "Well, _yeah_!  Bump him off!  Do it now!"), but I just couldn't stick it.

 

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I told them that, about the ending--"Here you spend the whole episode playing up a coldness between Claire and Brianna--which Isn't The Case At All (Claire _not_ being a heartless mother too obsessed with the past to pay attention to her daughter), but I can see why you need that for this to work and I'm (reluctantly) OK with it--and finally you manage a rapprochement and the next minute you throw it all away and make Claire out to be not only cold but selfish, not giving a single thought to the shocked little girl standing next to her, as she blithely declares her intent to abandon her daughter."

     They obligingly shot an alternate ending, with Brianna looking anxiously at Claire after Roger's, "He meant to die, but he didn't," and saying.  "You have to go back!"   It was, however, the very first scene they shot with Rik and Sophie together, and it didn't quite gel.

    I then suggested that they eliminate that line altogether and just have Roger's line (which is, in fact, the last line of the book--and I'm really pleased that they included it; I'd asked them to) be the final words spoken, followed by a closing close-up on Claire's face, where she looks stunned, then turns toward the rocks (having the sun now blazing behind them, pathway of light reaching invitingly out, etc...?) in dawning realization. 

     But I _knew_ they wouldn't do it that way.  They always have in mind that they're writing for two audiences, and they don't want to risk having non-book-fans, "not get it."  This occasionally leads to them lining the viewers up carefully and hitting them on the head with a mallet, and this was one of those occasions.

     Still and all, I thought they did a fabulous job with the episode, in terms of pretty much _everything_:  structure, engineering, dialogue, costume (of course <g>), settings and acting, and told them (Matt, Toni, Sam and Caitriona) so individually.  (And thanked Ron for preserving Claire's soul...)

[Wouldofshouldof]

7 minutes ago, AheadofStraight said:

They obligingly shot an alternate ending, with Brianna looking anxiously at Claire after Roger's, "He meant to die, but he didn't," and saying.  "You have to go back!"   It was, however, the very first scene they shot with Rik and Sophie together, and it didn't quite gel.

(Ahem) No reflection on Sophie's acting abilities, I'm sure.

7 minutes ago, AheadofStraight said:

This occasionally leads to them lining the viewers up carefully and hitting them on the head with a mallet, and this was one of those occasions.

Love it!  Well, I hate it, but you know what I mean.

[CatMack]

Honestly the level of hate Sophie is getting is ridiculous.  Maybe it's just because I spent the last 6 months heavily involved in local community theater, but if y'all think Sophie is really "terrible" than I feel envious that you have never had to actually sit and watch someone who truly has no talent whatsoever.  I'd like to address the complaints more directly but honestly I am completely baffled to the point where I don't even know what you all are talking about to try to come up with a rebuttal.  The only scene that felt awkward at all to me was her very first scene, meeting Roger, and honestly for me that was 50% awkward writing and 50% the scene was supposed to be slightly awkward because they're having a meet cute and a flirt in the middle of a wake it's an inherently awkward situation.

In fact I did a rewatch specifically focusing on Sophie to try to maybe see why people have such a problem with her but it just made me love her more.  She has great facial expressions and other non verbal acting ticks.  I already liked her in this episode and I can't wait to see her have more time to settle into the role even more.  

[WatchrTina]

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I had to look away, so I didn't realize Claire helped Jamie end him [Dougal]. 

As someone else pointed out, I do love that Claire helped Jamie when he needed a bit of extra strength to do a hard thing that had to be done and I LOVED that he returned the favor at the stones when she needed his strength.

I also liked (originally) that her willingness to help him with Dougal echoed the promise she made last episode.  She said that if Black Jack did not die in the battle of Culloden, "I will help you bleed him myself."  TVClaire's willingness to help Jamie kill (for the right reasons) has been established.

I had liked both those moments originally but Diana's point (quoted above from the Compuserve forum) about Claire being a healer and not a killer does resonate for me.  It helps me understand why, in the book, Claire's offer to poison BPC is made with such reluctance and why Diana had Jamie refuse, and Claire be glad of it.  BookClaire WILL kill in self-defense, or defense of Jamie. She kills two people during the whole get-Jamie-out-of-Wentworth-and-get-him-on-a-ship episode in the book -- deaths that we never saw in the TV show -- and we saw her kill her would-be rapist, just like in the book.  So Diana can't say that BookClaire will never kill.  But I do find it interesting that Diana objected to the change in the TV-show (a change I applauded earlier.)

And now, on a different topic . . . I think Cait knocked this episode out of the park.  I cannot (alas) say the same for Sam.  I LOVE Sam as Jamie.  I generally think he gets it right and in this episode there is so much he gets right.  Almost everything he does with Cait works because he shows us Jamie's pain.  That farewell scene at the stones -- Oh. My. God.  But there are scenes when Jamie is running around trying to take care of everyone -- scenes that begin with his conversation with Rupert -- that just don't work for me.  I realize that at that point Jamie would be hopped up on adrenaline and acting with urgency -- bargaining with Rupert -- ordering Murtagh and Fergus around -- and I appreciate that Jamie does not have the luxury of subsiding into shell-shocked silence the way Claire does after the death of Dougal.  But there is something in Sam's performance during that sequence of events that bothers me.  Jamie looks "excited" for lack of a better word and I think it would have played better if he had been grim -- determined & effective -- but sober and very grim.  Even the flash of joy that you see when he speaks of the baby feels out of place. His revealing that he knows about the baby -- a child he will never know -- should have been unrelentingly sad for him.  I blame the director for not seeing those false notes.

Edited July 10, 2016 by WatchrTina

[ihartcoffee]

18 hours ago, AD55 said:

The only other things I recall are a peanut butter sandwich and penicillin. I've just stupidly spoiled myself for the episode by reading all your comments. Just couldn't help myself since I can't watch it until tonight.

I did the same thing,  kinda.  Read last night but didn't watch until this morning.  Glad I'm not the only one.  She does bring penicillin,  I forgot the sandwich,  haha. 

[AD55]

Thanks for posting the quotations from DG, AheadofStraight.  I often disagree with her, but I think her criticisms are spot on in these two cases. For me, the tragedy of Dougal's death in the book is that he doesn't realize that Claire and Jamie had decided not to kill CS. It gives the scene an added poignancy. I wasn't crazy about Claire's helping Jamie to plunge the knife in. It felt like an execution, whereas (and I could be misremembering), I thought that Dougal's death came during the course of the fight. Also, Jamie knows he has to kill Dougal because Claire is in danger. I don't believe Jamie would have hesitated, which doesn't mean he wouldn't feel horrid and guilty about killing his uncle.

I also groaned at hearing that Brianna and Claire did not have a close relationship, since their almost mystical bond is one of the threads that runs throughout the books. It makes no sense psychologically or from anything we know about Claire. That Claire feels like a fish out of water in the twentieth century makes it even more likely that she would bond with the daughter who is her only connection to the past and to Jamie.

Add me to those who are very concerned about the casting of Sophie Skelton as Brianna. I spent the first part of the episode trying to like her, but I gave up after her first couple of scenes. As DancingD said, she took me out of the story every time she showed up. I think this is the first casting choice Ron and company have made that I didn't think was spot on. It's a shame because she's such an important character. It would take a lot of guts, but I think they should bite the bullet and recast her right away. Better to own up to the mistake and suffer some awkward moments with the press than move forward for 2+ more seasons with this melted candle.

Roger, on the other hand, was perfect. Rankin had such presence from his first appearance. I feel bad for him having to carry every scene he's in with Skelton for the next who knows how many more seasons.

I didn't like the ending either, except for the sunrise. Ordinarily, I find such effects cheesy, but I liked the shout out to episode one when Claire and Frank are at the stones watching the witches and the sun comes up. I have to rewatch the episode again, but I recall a lot of echoes from the first season, especially episode one.

And Duncan Lacroix just gets better and better.

[AD55]

21 minutes ago, CatMack said:

Honestly the level of hate Sophie is getting is ridiculous.

Just to clarify, and I think this is probably true of a lot of us, I don't have any feelings, positive or negative, about Sophie Skelton, whom I don't know and who may be perfectly lovely. I just think she's a terrible actress. That's a subjective opinion, and mmv.

[CatMack]

Yeah the level of hate she's getting *as an actress* is exactly what I was referring to. At the end of the day it's always going to come down to mileage varies but I really do think it's ridiculous.  Like I said if y'all think Sophie is terrible than I envy you never having to watch someone who actually has no talent. And frankly the fact that the book fandom has hated Bree for decades for displaying traits that they adore in their male characters makes it hard for me to see the level of vitriol the character and actress are both receiving without raising an eyebrow. 

[WatchrTina]

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if y'all think Sophie is really "terrible" than I feel envious that you have never had to actually sit and watch someone who truly has no talent whatsoever.  I'd like to address the complaints more directly but honestly I am completely baffled to the point where I don't even know what you all are talking about

I think it's possible that one of the reasons that Sophie is coming across as sub-par is that she is in scenes with possibly the show's best actress (Cait) and with a newcomer (Rik Rankin) who is knocking it out of the park on the first outing.  Sophie also has a thankless role to play -- Bree is having an identity crisis that we don't much care about because we're busy being heart-broken over the show's one true pairing.  Rik has a much easier row to hoe -- first we sympathize with his character because of Roger's grief and then we like him because he delivers literally the only funny moment in the entire episode (I laugh out loud every time he says "Oh" and tries to back out of the room when walks in on Claire & Brianna's argument.)  So I sympathize with the tough hand that Sophie has been dealt.  But that being said, Tobias Menzies' Frank was able to win my heart in episode 201 even though he was stuck wearing Black Jack Randall's face.  I thought his teary declaration of love for Claire was a terrific performance even as I thought to myself "Go away not-Jamie!"  

So what, specifically, do I think Sophie is getting wrong?  I honestly have a hard time pointing to specifics.  Her line deliveries don't sound "true."  I can "see" her acting and I don't see that with anyone else.  It reminds me of how, every now and then, I'll encounter a masseuse whose touch is just "wrong".  He or she does not work with confidence, does not hit the right spots while woking, they miss the meridians.  I find those massages intolerable and usually end them early saying "it's me."  Sophie rubs me the wrong way in exactly the same manner.

People generally don't like BookBrianna for a really long time so Sophie does have rather a thankless role to play.  Brianna is a Frank loyalist who is initially furious with her mother for having the relationship that is the focal point of this entire 8-book series.  That is a tough row to hoe.  And the lines she's been asked to deliver haven't been the best (being a know-it-all baby historian, having to "cute meet" Roger at a wake, berating her grief-stricken mother.)  Still, her delivery of those lines just makes me sad.  I'm not an actor.  I can't tell you how she should have delivered the shouted line "Oh My God!"  I just know that the way she delivered it didn't ring true.  It looked like acting. 

I criticized part of Sam's performance in this episode in an earlier post and in that case I blamed the director.  I wonder if the director is part of the problem here as well?  I wonder if a different director would have been able to guide Sophie to a better performance of those difficult, clunky lines?  I hope that is the case.  Generally this show has been very effective in its casting process and I feel certain Sophie brought the goods during her audition so perhaps a different director will be able to bring her up to the standard we expect.