S06.E10: The Winds of Winter

[Ambrosefolly]

9 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

But doesn't Tyrion already knows about the alliance with Dorne? He is aware of where  Varys went and some of those ships in Dany's fleet had the Dorne sigil, so I don't see why he would have a problem with that. I can't remember if he knows that Myrcella is dead, but Tyrion is one of the very few people in the show that undertands that revenge after revenge after revenge will never bring the peace they all need, and they all need to erase all that crap and start again with a clean slate. However, there is Olenna killing Jofffrey and putting the blame on him, but how is he ever going to find that?

There is revenge, which is what Ellaria and the Sand Snakes carried out when they killed Marcella, whose only crime was being related to Cersei and there is justice, and I would hope that Tyrion would want that for Marcella with Ellaria, Obara, Tyene, and Nymeria being executed for murdering people that never did anything to anyone and the eldest surviving Sand Snake being put in charge of House Martell. 

[VCRTracking]

I don't know if he knows if the Sand Snakes killed Myrcella but it'll be pretty complicated when they meet. Oberon died being his champion(even though he did it to try to kill the Mountain). Tyrion's also the reason she was in Dorne in the first place.

I'm still stunned how everything came together in the finale including the weak parts like Dorne and  Arya's storyline. I was disappointed on how anti-climactic her killing the Waif was two episodes ago, but her killing Walder Frey was sooooooo much more satisfying!

[benteen]

Dany's base of operations could be Dragonstone.  Her place of birth and a seat of Targaryen power for centuries.  There's been no mention of it in a long time.

[Athena]

7 hours ago, Ariah said:

Should we assume that next season opens with Dany's fleet decimated and the dragons dead?

1. I saw no dragon-carrier for the poor things to rest, they will lose strength and drown soon enough.

2. But before that, they will get hungry and start to eat the horses under the decks of those ships...

3. ... tearing the ships apart to get there.

I believe the dragons can fish and they have been shown flying and playing close to the water back in S3.

Drogon seems to be more obedient now. He can fly and hunt long distances away from the ships, but he does go home to mummy when she needs him. I expect he'll lead his brothers to do the same.

I don't expect Dany will be at Westeros ASAP in the next season opener. There are still a couple of Essos places she could stop in for provisions, alliance making, and strategic planning.

[HumblePi]

This is for the many people on the forum that commented on the musical score of this episode. Ramin Djawadi is the composer. This piece is simple and unadorned, yet haunting and moving. Enjoy again.

About the composer;

Ramin Djawadi (Persian: رامین جوادی‎‎; born July 19, 1974) is a German-Iranian composer. Djawadi is best known for his Grammy-nominated, guitar-heavy score for the 2008 Marvel film Iron Man and for the oft-covered theme to HBO's popular television series Game of Thrones. He is also known for his works on movies such as Pacific Rim and Warcraft or television series as Prison Break and Person of Interest.

And....he's not bad to look at either.

[InsertWordHere]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Upon reflection, what seems odd is that Tywin was buried in KIng's Landing rather than back at Casterly Rock.

His body was likely too smelly. I've just realized, with the bodies being burned, we won't be seeing zombie!Tywin or zombie!Joffrey when/if the White Walkers roll through King's Landing. 

[Silje]

Imagine how fun and exciting it must have been for Sansa to sit there and have people apologizing to Jon for not following him, praising him for taking back Winterfell and the North when Sansa had to convince him to stay and fight, and she was the one who brought the army that won the battle. The northern lords didn't even acknowledge her sitting there or her being the legitimate heir to Winterfell (at least until/if Bran comes home). The Lannisters and Tyrells took her claim more seriously than her own people.  

If the writers wanted Jon to be the King in the North/the leader of the northern army, they should have started the scene with Glover apologizing to Jon and have Jon say that it's Sansa's forgiveness he should ask (seriously, Glover got all up in her personal space about how house Stark was dead) and then have Sansa tell the lords that they should follow Jon for whatever bullshit reason. That would've at least given Sansa some agency in the matter and not have everyone just walk all over her, and the audience theorizing after about how she doesn't want to be the head of house Stark because... Only Jon can use that position to protect her? Then you have the "no one would follow a girl in war times'-excuse when in the same scene you have those people being shamed by a 10 year old girl who led her people to war because she's the head of her noble house.           

[Attaboy000]

Not sure if it's been mentioned here yet, but I really want to see a Robert Strong/Zombie Gregor Clegane vs. Drogon fight. 

I see it playing out like this: 

Gregor Clegane: Rawrrrr *waves sword at Dany + friends*

Drogon: flies in from behind, crushes Gregor, roasts and eats him.

The end.

[Ruby Gillis]

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

But for that to happen not only it has to be known Jon is a Targaryen but it has to be proved. The only people still alive who know he is Lyanna and Rhaegar's child are Howland Reed and Bran, right? Jon doesn't look like a Tagaryen and Ned Stark spent the last, what, 15/20 years of his life saying he was his bastard. That absolute certainty Jon is a Stark through his father is what made Manderly, Mormont and the others crown him as King in the North. I assume the show could come up with a letter Rhaegar sent to Aemon talking about Jon and being married to Lyanna and that letter is somehow found by Sam in the Citadel, but it is still a piece of paper and it means nothing if people don't believe or dismiss it.

I also don't see how anyone could ever prove that Jon is a Targaryen.  I don't know how Jon himself would belief it unless Ned left him a letter or something.  No offense to Bran but the whole thing would sound crazy if he explained it.

[Attaboy000]

1 minute ago, Ruby Gillis said:

I also don't see how anyone could ever prove that Jon is a Targaryen.  I don't know how Jon himself would belief it unless Ned left him a letter or something.  No offense to Bran but the whole thing would sound crazy if he explained it.

Yup, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the true heir of the Iron Throne never makes a move for it, or even realizes that he IS the heir. That would definitely go against the grain of typical fantasy storytelling.

[TigerLynx]

Depending on who else gets killed off, it could end with Dany on the Iron Throne, Tyrion as her hand, and Jon/Sansa/Bran/Arya in charge of the North?  What about all the other kingdoms?  Or maybe no one gets out alive.

[Oscirus]

Even if I Ignore the whole "polygamy is bad" thing, I still wouldn't  see how Jon would be a threat. Cersei being on the throne basically tells us that Targ connections mean nothing anymore.

Besides, this whole show is about the political maneuverings to get to the iron throne. If the person on the throne at the end happens to be the secret grandson of a previous king and that's the only reason he gets it,  this show would be a waste of time. 

There has to be another reason behind the importance of his parents.

[Constantinople]

50 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Cersei being on the throne basically tells us that Targ connections mean nothing anymore.

It tells me that inertia led to someone being on the throne in the absence of any other Baratheons or (known) Targaryens.

I'm not sure how much support Cersei will have once the Dany Armada lands.  Almost any alternative to Cersei would look good, particularly someone from the former royal family who has 3 firebreathing dragons, a navy and an army of Dothraki & Unsullied.

[Neko]

53 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Even if I Ignore the whole "polygamy is bad" thing, I still wouldn't  see how Jon would be a threat. Cersei being on the throne basically tells us that Targ connections mean nothing anymore.

Besides, this whole show is about the political maneuverings to get to the iron throne. If the person on the throne at the end happens to be the secret grandson of a previous king and that's the only reason he gets it,  this show would be a waste of time. 

There has to be another reason behind the importance of his parents.

There is.  Jon is Azor Ahai, the Prince That Was Promised.  His destiny is to lead Westeros in the fight against the White Walkers.

[minirth]

Why were the children so willing to kill Pycelle?  Are we just supposed to ascribe it to the fact that they are feral, or was there a nasty implication of abuse there?  

[HumblePi]

1 hour ago, Ruby Gillis said:

I also don't see how anyone could ever prove that Jon is a Targaryen.  I don't know how Jon himself would belief it unless Ned left him a letter or something.  No offense to Bran but the whole thing would sound crazy if he explained it.

There were two witnesses at the birth and the camera did sort of linger on one of them. Perhaps in next season one will reappear to validate the fact that Lyanna was raped and impregnated by Rhaegar Targaryen.

[proserpina65]

On ‎06‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 11:29 PM, KaleyFirefly said:

I loved that scene, but I wonder about future implications. The Northern lords were supporting Jon because "the blood of Ned Stark runs through his veins." But what happens if they find out he's not Ned's son but Lyanna Stark's -- and his dad was a Targaryen?

I think that by the time the Night King's army of reanimated dead reach them, they won't care.

[Raachel2008]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Even if I Ignore the whole "polygamy is bad" thing, I still wouldn't  see how Jon would be a threat. Cersei being on the throne basically tells us that Targ connections mean nothing anymore.

Jon would be a threat because he lives, just like Gendry was a threat to Cersei and her children because he existed. An heir in any shape or form is always a threat, and that is why Robert wanted all the remaining Targaryen killed and why Cersei did everything in her power to get rid of all Robert's bastards. It doesn't matter if they want the throne or are suited for it. 

Cersei being on the throne tells us there was no one else around to challenge her claim to the throne, either by blood, like a remaining Baratheon, or by war, like Robert and Ned did. This is going to change very soon when Danaerys makes herself known as the last alive Targaryen. If Dany takes too long to get to King Landing's there is nothing saying the people on streets won't rebel against Cersei and another player won't try to take the power.

Jon is  is a threat to Dany because he is another Targaryen and depending on how the whole thing is told he is the true heir of the Targaryen bloodline and not her. But, as we've just seen in the North and with Tommen, birthright and rights are not a guarantee you will be the one with the power.

More than what he can do as a 'legitmized' Targaryen (fly dragons or sit on the throne), I'm more interested to see how Jon Snow, who has just been validated as a true Stark,  will deal with the fact that he is not Ned Stark's son. This is going to be some trainwreck, but maybe they all will be too busy the White Walkers to really care.

 

45 minutes ago, Sweet Summer Child said:

Besides, this whole show is about the political maneuverings to get to the iron throne. If the person on the throne at the end happens to be the secret grandson of a previous king and that's the only reason he gets it,  this show would be a waste of time. 

Dany is not going to get the throne because she is a survivingTargaryen, but because she  has the power to do sit on the Iron Throne and keep her ass there. Gendry will never be the king because he doesn't any power behind him to put him in the throne, but he is/was a threat because someone could legitimize/back up 'his claim' and kick of Cersei's bastard children out of King's Landing.

 

32 minutes ago, HumblePi said:

There were two witnesses at the birth and the camera did sort of linger on one of them. Perhaps in next season one will reappear to validate the fact that Lyanna was raped and impregnated by Rhaegar Targaryen.

I thought in the books we were supposed to think they had this great love story?

Edited June 28, 2016 by Raachel2008

[HumblePi]

'Septa Unella'  (what a 'shame', I'll miss her)

Actress Hannah Waddingham

[MarySNJ]

3 hours ago, Attaboy000 said:

Yup, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the true heir of the Iron Throne never makes a move for it, or even realizes that he IS the heir. That would definitely go against the grain of typical fantasy storytelling.

Whether or not Jon learns the truth about his parentage, I agree that he won't want to make a move for it. He may be Targ by blood, but he's a Stark and a Northman by upbringing and I doubt he gives a damn what happens in the lower 6 kingdoms at this point unless they are willing to help fight the real enemy. I certainly don't see Jon having any interest in heading off to fight the Mad Queen for the Iron Throne. 

And I'll take it a step further. I hope that ugly throne will be a rusted relic of the past that no one (after Cersei) wants to sit in. Daenerys says she wants to "break the wheel"? Well, let her start by melting down her great, great umpteenth grandfather's war trophy and "conquering" (or rescuing from Cersei's rule?) Westeros to leave it better than she found it. 

[HumblePi]

Updated character map. Red dot above their name - dead  Blue dot above their name - brought back from the dead

[Wulfsige]

I admit I enjoy Cersei (and her clothes) way more than I probably should and Dany way less than perhaps the writers would like me to. I don't like any of Dany's entourage with the exception of the Greyjoys, and that's only because I have a crush on Yara. 

I wouldn't mind if next year...

Dany and her horde of rapists and pillagers and fire-breathing dragons arrive in KL to find out that Cersei's already burnt most of the place down and there's nobody left to rape, pillage, or to burn. The Dothraki are pissed and freezing. The Sand Snakes are pissed and freezing and arguing among themselves as to whose nipples are biggest in the cold. They find Cersei sitting on her clammy cold arse  on the IT and Dany postures and poses and says, "Kneel before me, usurper, I am Queen of blahblahblah Thousand Pretentious Titles blahblahblah...!" Cersei says, "Oh, do SHUT UP!" and pulls a lever to a trapdoor and the whole lot vanishes. 

Cersei smirks and asks Ser Zombie Gregor to make a note to clean out the dudgeons sometime, no rush. Ser Gregor says, "Ser Gregor isn't here." Cersei pours a tankard of wine and does a double take, "Wait a second...you can speak?" Ser Gregor takes off his helmet, to reveal...Arya, who says, "Wow, dead things really are kinda hard to kill. Bit of a struggle but I managed it." Just before she goes stab-stab-stabbity-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab on Cercei she adds, "The Direwolves send their regards." 

[Shanna Marie]

Putting aside what they said in interviews, what I saw from the "King in the North!" scene was Sansa being pleased, then noticing Littlefinger's reaction and going, "Oh, crap, Jon's in trouble. Littlefinger just told me that what he wants is to sit on the throne with me by his side, and here Jon is being proclaimed king with me by his side (though in a different way than Littlefinger wants). Worse, Jon got it without having to scheme, lie, murder, blackmail, and campaign his way there. He didn't even ask for it. Worst of all, Jon is a bastard, which is a lower start than being a minor nobleman, and he still managed to get there while Littlefinger's still scheming. Littlefinger is going to hate him, and while Jon may know how to swing a sword, he's way out of his league when it comes to scheming." Not that I got all of that from her look, but it's all in the context of everything that led up to that moment. If they wanted to give a different impression, they needed to have done different things around that scene, like not staging it so that Jon was getting exactly what Littlefinger just said he wanted, and not having Jon trying to deflect the "lord" position on Sansa, with her rejecting it.

If she is resenting him for being proclaimed king while she's being ignored, then that's some weapons-grade passive aggression, given that she rejected all his attempts to put her into position as Lady of Winterfell. How is he supposed to know that she wants in on it now? She's also in too-stupid-to-live territory if she lets one glance from Littlefinger turn her against Jon when she knows (and has warned Jon) that Littlefinger isn't to be trusted, when Littlefinger has already put her in terrible positions to assist his own position, and when she just heard Littlefinger tell her what he wants. And she's also guilty of not listening to or paying attention to her brother if she expects Jon to stand up and make an eloquent speech acknowledging her role in that situation. He was struck utterly dumb -- even more so than usual. He's not the most articulate guy under the best of circumstances, and he's not used to having the spotlight on him. Besides, expecting credit to be shared in a case like that is a very 21st century thing. We may expect managers and Oscar winners to say "I couldn't have done it without my team," but it would weaken a lord's position to say, "I couldn't have won the battle if my sister hadn't secretly called in those reinforcements and kicked my butt into fighting in the first place." Him giving her that credit wouldn't have boosted her position any at all. They were looking for a military leader in the great war to come, and Sansa wasn't going to qualify.

The last real King in the North (not counting Robb) was a Stark, but it's been so long that it's not necessarily any longer a hereditary title that automatically goes to the Lord of Winterfell or to the top-ranking Stark. It doesn't seem like it's been something really passed down through the Stark line. Both with Robb and with Jon, it seems to have been an ad hoc kind of thing, acclaiming a leader based on who stepped up to lead and who they think can do the job. That scene had more the sense of an election -- like the election of Lord Commander -- than of a coronation. They believe Jon has Ned's blood and that this matters, but it sounds like it's as much about the qualities they think Ned's blood gives him as it is about his position in the family.

[MrWhyt]

Thoros of Myr was never brought back from the dead.

[domina89]

Does KITN and Lord of Winterfell have to be the same thing, though?  I guess my thought is that both can exist- Jon as KITN and Sansa as Lady of Winterfell. Jon acknowledges that is who she in their conversation on the parapet.  Jon can rule from anywhere he chooses in the North, correct?  I know traditionally it has been from Winterfell, but if a conflict with Sansa should arise, I think Jon would value his relationship with Sansa more than he would controlling Winterfell.

I watched HBO's 'After the Thrones' segment and was intrigued by what one of the hosts said.  He thought this was an episode where most of the characters fully embraced who they really are: Dany, Tyrion, Arya, Jon, Cersei.  I think that makes some sense regarding the decision to have Jon tacitly accept the KITN title, perhaps at the expense of allowing Sansa more agency.  Jon is embracing his destiny to lead the fight against the White Walkers and the writers wanted to make that clear.  Still badly written, but that does seem plausible.

[lmsweb]

Well, there is that whole "there must always be a Stark at Winterfell". Sansa would be useless on the battle field, so I don't see her marching off to war with Jon. But that begs the question - who would Jon trust enough to stay behind to keep her safe? Brienne, naturally. Maybe Arya will find her way home. But if Jon's going to need as many men as he can muster, it's going to be hard choosing ones he trusts enough to keep Winterfell and Sansa safe.

[Shanna Marie]

14 minutes ago, domina89 said:

Does KITN and Lord of Winterfell have to be the same thing, though?  I guess my thought is that both can exist- Jon as KITN and Sansa as Lady of Winterfell. Jon acknowledges that is who she in their conversation on the parapet.  Jon can rule from anywhere he chooses in the North, correct? 

That's where I was going with it -- that King in the North doesn't necessarily have to be the same thing as Lord of Winterfell, and Jon becoming KITN doesn't seem to spring from him being considered Lord of Winterfell. Did they even acknowledge him as being Lord of Winterfell before naming him KITN? So Sansa can run Winterfell and Jon can run the war, and nobody was being disloyal to Sansa (or Bran or Arya) to name Jon KITN. I guess the only place where that came up was him preparing the lord's chamber for her and her saying it was his, but that doesn't really matter much since I can't imagine the followers caring who sleeps where, and if Ramsay used the lord's chamber in his father's absence, I could see her not wanting to sleep there, regardless of who holds what title. With all the nastiness about to head toward the Wall, I doubt Jon will be hanging around at Winterfell enough to sleep much in the lord's room or to play Lord of Winterfell.

[Neko]

I just realized that all three Lannister siblings are kinslayers, now: Jaime killed his cousin, Tyrion killed his father, and Cersei killed her uncle.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, MrWhyt said:

Thoros of Myr was never brought back from the dead.

Try to add Urine Euron during the hiatus....

[MissLucas]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

That's where I was going with it -- that King in the North doesn't necessarily have to be the same thing as Lord of Winterfell, and Jon becoming KITN doesn't seem to spring from him being considered Lord of Winterfell. Did they even acknowledge him as being Lord of Winterfell before naming him KITN? So Sansa can run Winterfell and Jon can run the war, and nobody was being disloyal to Sansa (or Bran or Arya) to name Jon KITN.

I'm generally confused why people find this development so upsetting. Even with Jon being Lord of Winterfell (I suppose KITN/Lord of Winterfell is a package deal) Sansa is still the Lady of Winterfell - as long as he's not married. If Winterfell works according to medieval traditions that gives her quite a bit of clout. It actually gives her pretty much the same amount of power she could expect from marriage in this ultimately patriarchic society. So far she has never shown any ambitions to become a ruler in her own right. After everything that has happened her suddenly falling for LF's whispers (who btw. also offers her 'just' a position as queen consort not queen regnant) makes no sense at all.

Not sure what to think of the actors' interviews. I love Sophie Turner but she has given some weird interpretations of Sansa before. How much do they know about next season at this point? And would they really be allowed to hand out such spoilerish info? If anything I believe they're elegantly trolling us. There might be tensions between Jon and Sansa next season (because they are 'siblings' and because this is GoT) but the reasons for those tensions might have nothing to do with what's been hinted at in these interviews - or only remotely.

[kittykat]

It's a lovely moment for Jon and Sansa when Jon is proclaimed KITN.  I'm not sure I buy D&D's pitch when they're saying Sansa is resentful.  When she looks at Littlefinger its a humbling moment; this is the greatest triumph House Stark has had in years but LF's grave look is a reminder to Sansa that the "game" is still on and that they've become bigger players than they've ever imagined before.

The Winds of Winter is more than a jab at a promised but as-yet-unpublished work and a reminder that Winter is Coming Here.  It's the shifting of positions and removal and promotion of players.  The North has been largely forgotten by the South because of all the Kings Landing drama, but with Mad Queen Cersei First of Her Name and Lord Protector of the Batshit Crazy on the throne, they're going to get some unwanted attention now.  Jon has entered the game as a newfound ruler but still knows nothing on the politics, that is where Sansa comes in.  She may not have much experience in manipulation but has seen plenty of it first hand.  Not sure how the North Small Council will be but I imagine Sansa or Davos could be Hand.  

[Gertrude]

22 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

I'm generally confused why people find this development so upsetting. Even with Jon being Lord of Winterfell (I suppose KITN/Lord of Winterfell is a package deal) Sansa is still the Lady of Winterfell - as long as he's not married. If Winterfell works according to medieval traditions that gives her quite a bit of clout. It actually gives her pretty much the same amount of power she could expect from marriage in this ultimately patriarchic society. So far she has never shown any ambitions to become a ruler in her own right. After everything that has happened her suddenly falling for LF's whispers (who btw. also offers her 'just' a position as queen consort not queen regnant) makes no sense at all.

Sansa is only Lady if Jon wills it or while he remains unmarried. Sure, she still has a lot of sway right now, but she has her position through Jon, not on her own. It's a big difference, actually. If she were Lady in her own right, her husband would likely rule in a lot of ways, but his power ultimately derives from her, which again, is a big difference in a subtle way. He would take her name and he is mainly a placeholder in favor of their children.

We know that Sansa is fine with Jon having Winterfell through their private conversation. No one else does though and to promote Jon without even regarding Sansa's thoughts on the matter is dismissive. When Yara was trying to claim the Iron Isles, she had to get approval from the rightful heir (Theon) before her people or even Dany/Tyrion would think about it. She was in the same position Jon was - not the rightful heir, but capable and popular with the people and a proven leader. Like I keep saying - I get why people prefer Jon, but for god's sake, have someone glance at Sansa and that be her cue to stand up and endorse Jon. Don't just ignore her claim and pretend that it's not an insult.

[Hecate7]

5 hours ago, HumblePi said:

There were two witnesses at the birth and the camera did sort of linger on one of them. Perhaps in next season one will reappear to validate the fact that Lyanna was raped and impregnated by Rhaegar Targaryen.

There is no reason to conceal Jon Snow's parentage if his father is not Rhaegar Targaryen. Lyanna didn't ask Ned to raise her son to save her reputation. She said "Robert will kill him." There is only one reason for Robert Baratheon to want to murder the child of Lyanna Stark. Of course she was impregnated by Rhaegar. The baby didn't come from nowhere. That doesn't necessarily mean she was raped--she might have consented or even secretly been his wife. Either way, everyone knows she was placed in the Tower of Joy by Rhaegar at the beginning of the war, and remained there until she died in childbirth at the end of the war.

[TaurusRose]

Quote

Imagine how fun and exciting it must have been for Sansa to sit there and have people apologizing to Jon for not following him, praising him for taking back Winterfell and the North when Sansa had to convince him to stay and fight, and she was the one who brought the army that won the battle. The northern lords didn't even acknowledge her sitting there or her being the legitimate heir to Winterfell (at least until/if Bran comes home). The Lannisters and Tyrells took her claim more seriously than her own people.

I may be in the minority here, but for fuck's sake.  Fuck, Sansa.  She did not get her ass on the battlefield, in the face of amazing odds, and throw down like a champ.  She did not chase Ramsay back to Winterfell, after fighting like a champ, and nearly beat the life out of him.  By the time the Vale showed up, the army opposing the Bolton forces, small as they were, had bloodied their noses pretty good and made the Vale's job a whole lot easier and less bloody (for them). The Vale's army did not appear to number 6,000 men, so without the "useless" fighting of the smaller army, there is no proof that they would have prevailed.  And had that happened, no one would be singing the praises of Sansa Stark.  Big whoop, she's trueborn, but the thing is they don't need a pretty face; they need someone who knows what they're up against and will get in the middle of the fight when the shit hits the fan.  Jon has put the Northern houses on notice...the real war is coming and they need to stand strong.  This might seem like a small thing, but to me, it's very important:  Sansa wasn't a team player; I don't care what her reasons were for not telling Jon about the Vale army, she allowed hurt feelings and a bitchy snit to get people killed needlessly, and I'm not forgetting that.  Regardless of how people feel, the battle of the bastards is the kind of thing legends are made of, and if the North doesn't know about Jon's adventure with being dead, they will hear about it soon enough when men are drinking late at night in the great halls or sitting around campfires, and rehashing the battle again.  As for the Tyrells and the Lannisters, they haven't given Sansa a thought since she ran away from KL, the only one who wants her is LF and even she knows that aligning herself with him is crazy.    

Edited June 29, 2016 by taurusrose

[HumblePi]

16 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

There is no reason to conceal Jon Snow's parentage if his father is not Rhaegar Targaryen. Lyanna didn't ask Ned to raise her son to save her reputation. She said "Robert will kill him." There is only one reason for Robert Baratheon to want to murder the child of Lyanna Stark. Of course she was impregnated by Rhaegar. The baby didn't come from nowhere. That doesn't necessarily mean she was raped--she might have consented or even secretly been his wife. Either way, everyone knows she was placed in the Tower of Joy by Rhaegar at the beginning of the war, and remained there until she died in childbirth at the end of the war.

There is no real reason at this point to either reveal or conceal Jon Snow's lineage. This has nothing to do with Robert, Catelyn or Ned Stark. It has to do with the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. If it can be shown that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targareyn, he would indeed be the heir to the throne. Robert's hatred for the Targaryen was way beyond reason; if he knew, he would certainly have killed Jon, and maybe even Ned too. But Jon would still be a bastard, just the bastard of Rhaegar Targareyn and the patronage of a child supersedes the mother. Jon would be Targareyn first, Stark second.

Edited June 29, 2016 by HumblePi

[ToniG]

3 hours ago, Wulfsige said:

I admit I enjoy Cersei (and her clothes) way more than I probably should and Dany way less than perhaps the writers would like me to. I don't like any of Dany's entourage with the exception of the Greyjoys, and that's only because I have a crush on Yara. 

I wouldn't mind if next year...

Dany and her horde of rapists and pillagers and fire-breathing dragons arrive in KL to find out that Cersei's already burnt most of the place down and there's nobody left to rape, pillage, or to burn. The Dothraki are pissed and freezing. The Sand Snakes are pissed and freezing and arguing among themselves as to whose nipples are biggest in the cold. They find Cersei sitting on her clammy cold arse  on the IT and Dany postures and poses and says, "Kneel before me, usurper, I am Queen of blahblahblah Thousand Pretentious Titles blahblahblah...!" Cersei says, "Oh, do SHUT UP!" and pulls a lever to a trapdoor and the whole lot vanishes. 

Cersei smirks and asks Ser Zombie Gregor to make a note to clean out the dudgeons sometime, no rush. Ser Gregor says, "Ser Gregor isn't here." Cersei pours a tankard of wine and does a double take, "Wait a second...you can speak?" Ser Gregor takes off his helmet, to reveal...Arya, who says, "Wow, dead things really are kinda hard to kill. Bit of a struggle but I managed it." Just before she goes stab-stab-stabbity-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab on Cercei she adds, "The Direwolves send their regards." 

Hahahaha! Love this!

[Ambrosefolly]

37 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

 

I may be in the minority here, but for fuck's sake.  Fuck, Sansa.  She did not get her ass on the battle, in the face of amazing odds, and throw down like a champ.  She did not chase Ramsay back to Winterfell, after fighting like a champ, and nearly beat the life out of him.  By the time the Vale showed up, the army opposing the Bolton forces, small as they were, had bloodied their noses pretty good and made the Vale's job a whole lot easier and less bloody (for them). The Vale's army did not appear to number 6,000 men, so without the "useless" fighting of the smaller army, there is no proof that they would have prevailed.  And had that happened, no one would be singing the praises of Sansa Stark.  Big whoop, she's trueborn, but the thing is they don't need a pretty face; they need someone who knows what they're up against and will get in the middle of the fight when the shit hits the fan.  Jon has put the Northern houses on notice...the real war is coming and they need to stand strong.  This might seem like a small thing, but to me, it's very important:  Sansa wasn't a team player; I don't care what her reasons were for not telling Jon about the Vale army, she allowed hurt feelings and a bitchy snit to get people killed needlessly, and I'm not forgetting that.  Regardless of how people feel, the battle of the bastards is the kind of thing legends are made of, and if the North doesn't know about Jon's adventure with being dead, they will hear about it soon enough when men are drinking late at night in the great halls or campfires, and rehashing the battle again.  As for the Tyrells and the Lannisters, they haven't given Sansa a thought since she ran away from KL, the only one who wants her is LF and even she knows that aligning herself with him is crazy.    

If Sansa not fighting in the war is a reason she shouldn't rule, then no woman, including Lyanna Mormont, shouldn't be ruling anything. Historically, it was the reason that women were denied the vote, because they weren't conscripted into fighting wars. The reason the Jon's army almost lost wasn't because Sansa remained tight lipped or even that the army was half the size, it was because Jon, foolishly tried to charge at Ramsay after Rickon was killed and everyone was force to rush ahead to protect Jon. Fact is,  the North isn't a democracy or even the Iron Islands. Robb wasn't voted in, the lords decided to cede from the rule of the Iron Throne and Starks were historically the Kings of the North. Since Bran hasn't made it back home, and Rickon (who would have been declared the Warden of the North despite his age) is dead, Sansa is the only true born child of Ned Stark. Also Sansa blood ties, namely the blood tie to Robin Arryn,  tipped Robin's decision to go along with Littlefinger's plan.  If the Vale were there they might have gotten caught in the pincher move along with the Northern army. Sansa was the one that convinced Jon to reclaim Winterfell and attempt to rescue Rickon. She was there by his side trying to talk the houses into joining their army. She did more than a lot of women who are monarchs every did. If Lyanna Mormont can rule Bear Island if she has advisors on hand at all of ten years old, then Sansa should be able to as well.

[forum4idiots]

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/06/game-of-thrones-easter-eggs-callbacks-season-6-episode-10-the-winds-of-winter

Little Easter eggs in the episode. 

wow.  the azor ahai explanation was brilliant.  it does meet the requirements, doesn't it?  "but", that hint of the sword and all that is too exclusive for the average fan to get into.

[forum4idiots]

23 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

If Sansa not fighting in the war is a reason she shouldn't rule, then no woman, including Lyanna Mormont, shouldn't be ruling anything. Historically, it was the reason that women were denied the vote, because they weren't conscripted into fighting wars. The reason the Jon's army almost lost wasn't because Sansa remained tight lipped or even that the army was half the size, it was because Jon, foolishly tried to charge at Ramsay after Rickon was killed and everyone was force to rush ahead to protect Jon. Fact is,  the North isn't a democracy or even the Iron Islands. Robb wasn't voted in, the lords decided to cede from the rule of the Iron Throne and Starks were historically the Kings of the North. Since Bran hasn't made it back home, and Rickon (who would have been declared the Warden of the North despite his age) is dead, Sansa is the only true born child of Ned Stark. Also Sansa blood ties, namely the blood tie to Robin Arryn,  tipped Robin's decision to go along with Littlefinger's plan.  If the Vale were there they might have gotten caught in the pincher move along with the Northern army. Sansa was the one that convinced Jon to reclaim Winterfell and attempt to rescue Rickon. She was there by his side trying to talk the houses into joining their army. She did more than a lot of women who are monarchs every did. If Lyanna Mormont can rule Bear Island if she has advisors on hand at all of ten years old, then Sansa should be able to as well.

not fighting is  a minor part....but it is a factor (to some houses).  it is more the dilemma of sansa's relations with a lannister (who is responsible for the red wedding) and a bolton (who they just evicted).  notice that they kept mentioning the red wedding and avenging it.

why in god's name would they want a ruler who has some involvement with the people responsible for the red wedding and the people they just defeated?

pretty sure they made that clear during the meeting....the red wedding was a big no no.  there is no way for the families to know sansa's role with both the lannisters and boltons.  we knew she was a victim.....they don't know that.  they is no way for them to know that other than her word.  but the red wedding was such a stain that any link to a lannister WILL be frowned UPON.

[coops]

I think next season we will FINALLY see Cersei as she is in the books compared to watch she has been like in the show up until now. The writers have always softened her, not to mention really drove home the 'but she loves her children' card. If they always knew they were going to get to this point in the show  with her character, as in losing everything that made her remotely human while at the same time gaining total power, then it makes sense that they softened her up until now. We've gradually seen her get worse and worse in the show whereas in the books she didn't have any redeeming features even right at the beginning. I always wondered why the costume department never gave her a crown before. Margary wears a crown. In the book Cersei can't get enough of wearing her crown. Now I kind of get it. The fact Cersei has never worn a crown before made that scene where she gets coronated all the more chilling. She was wearing a 'if you thought I was a bitch before just wait till you see me now' expression. The only problem is I don't see how she can last longer than 3 seconds once Dany arrives. Maybe it's time she gave the Starks a long overdue apology?

[Macbeth]

They made Jon King of the North - thereby  as a consequence he is made Lord of Winterfell as well.  They are responding to his leadership in battle.  I know there are issues with that.  They were drunk on the North rising again, not making a statement of who is the rightful heir of Winterfell.

If Rickon had lived he would not have been named King of the North.  Neither would Bran if he made it past the Wall in time.  Sansa is not Dany or Yara - she has not given any indications that she wanted to lead an army.

With all the people drinking red wine in this episode maybe GOT characters are watching Scandal or The Good Wife on their down time.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Macbeth

[lmsweb]

Just thought of something. If it does turn out that Jon's real name is something very Targareyon sounding, I'm going to take that as proof that Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar and he didn't "kidnap and rape her". There is no way she'd give him a Targ name otherwise.

[HumblePi]

I don't like to stray further than what I've seen and what I think I've seen in the scene with Ned and Lyanna. It was only for a pause that Ned Stark made as he made his way to Lyanna's bedside, the camera focused on him placing his sword at the food of the bed, upright on the floor. The camera lingered on the sword as if there was some significance to it.

'Lightbringer' is a sword of legend, forged and wielded by Azor Ahai, chosen by the Lord of Light to fight the darkness. The sword was said to glow and radiate heat, burning whoever touches it. As in the TV series, Melisandre enchants Stannis's sword and dubs it Lightbringer, as she believes him to be Azor Ahai reborn. However, Melisandre is apparently unable to get the sword to radiate heat, and it only gives off bright light. Thus there is a discrepancy between the "Lightbringer" of legend, and Stannis's sword "Lightbringer", named after the original.

In A Storm of Swords, Maester Aemon asks Stannis to see the sword. Stannis cannot understand how a blind man can see his sword, but shows it to him. Sam describes the sword in details to Aemon: "It glows as if it were on fire. There are no flames, but the steel is yellow and red and orange, all flashing and glimmering, like sunshine on water, but prettier. I wish you could see it, Maester". While they walk away, Aemon seems to be deep in thought. He asks Sam whether he felt any heat from the sword. Sam admits he saw lights, but did not feel any heat. Aemon does not reveal the purpose of his question (perhaps it is ironic that a blind man noticed what others with eyesight did not). It is possible that he felt it was not the real Lightbringer, and Stannis was not Azor Ahai, and the real Lightbringer is supposed to radiate heat.

In the taunting letter that Ramsay sends Jon, he claims that he destroyed Stannis and his host, and has possession of his magic sword. It is unknown if Ramsay indeed has Lightbringer, since there are reasons to believe the letter contents are false. Whether the sword that Ned Stark laid at the foot of Lyanna's bed is 'Lightbringer' brings in a whole host of other questions like how did he get this sword, where did it go eventually, who has it now?

I'm editing because I think I've found an article that answers all my questions about Lightbringer. http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/game-of-thrones/feature/a799029/game-of-thrones-azor-ahai-lord-of-light-rhllor-prince-that-was-promised/

Edited June 29, 2016 by HumblePi

[forum4idiots]

i'm just wondering what little finger's gonna do now.  he said he already pledged his banner to winterfell.  and he was eagerly waiting in the meeting.  as others were pledging their swords ( i guess a sign of pledging by raising it for jon), he was not.  but the look sansa gave him and his litttle smile.......was he planning this and knew this would happen?  was that the meaning on sansa's look?

i suppose little  finger can always support jon all the way to westeros and once he comes king, little finger can play the bastard card and that jon cannot be king due to that....little (haha, indirect pun) does he know about jon's lineage......

so it all works out.  so i guess jon will need a witness....howland reed, perhaps? 

Edited June 29, 2016 by lovebug1975

[WatchrTina]

Upon second viewing I noticed that when Cersei was crowed it was as a Lannister, not a Baratheon.  That was interesting.

I wonder if Sansa is going to be known as Lady Bolton next season?  I imagine that she will go back to being known as "Lady Sansa" and her married last name will simply be ignored.

The actors who play Thoros of Myr and Ser Beric Dondarian must be delighted by the carnage in King's Landing.  They've killed off so many named characters that that leaves room for minor characters to come to the foreground.

I look forward to the reunion of Arya with her family but i also look forward to her reunion with The Hound. Lotta history there.

I look forward to the reunion of Brienne and Tormund but I would LOVE it if Tormund got a chance to see all the unresolved sexual tension between Brienne and Jamie.

And when the fuck is Gendry going to turn up?

Edited June 29, 2016 by WatchrTina

[Ambrosefolly]

25 minutes ago, lovebug1975 said:

not fighting is  a minor part....but it is a factor (to some houses).  it is more the dilemma of sansa's relations with a lannister (who is responsible for the red wedding) and a bolton (who they just evicted).  notice that they kept mentioning the red wedding and avenging it.

why in god's name would they want a ruler who has some involvement with the people responsible for the red wedding and the people they just defeated?

pretty sure they made that clear during the meeting....the red wedding was a big no no.  there is no way for the families to know sansa's role with both the lannisters and boltons.  we knew she was a victim.....they don't know that.  they is no way for them to know that other than her word.  but the red wedding was such a stain that any link to a lannister WILL be frowned UPON.

Maybe the reason the North Doesn't Remember is because they are stupid. They should be aware that a 14 year old wouldn't marry an imp more than twice her age if she didn't have a knife to her throat. Heck they should realize (since they are Lords) a female has very little say on who she marries. They should already have heard about her involvement in Joffrey's death, since Cersei probably has a bounty on her head, and hopefully they have heard what she did to her "beloved" husband Ramsay.

[HumblePi]

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/06/game-of-thrones-easter-eggs-callbacks-season-6-episode-10-the-winds-of-winter

Little Easter eggs in the episode. 

Thanks for this link, it helped sort out some complexities that haven't been clear for me. I repeated the link in another post. There's some good information here. I've spent too much time over-thinking this episode and I think my head is about to explode, so I'll end it for tonight.  Thanks again.

[Raachel2008]

37 minutes ago, HumblePi said:

In the taunting letter that Ramsay sends Jon, he claims that he destroyed Stannis and his host, and has possession of his magic sword. It is unknown if Ramsay indeed has Lightbringer, since there are reasons to believe the letter contents are false. Whether the sword that Ned Stark laid at the foot of Lyanna's bed is 'Lightbringer' brings in a whole host of other questions like how did he get this sword, where did it go eventually, who has it now?

 

I read somewhere that the sword Ned laid at the foot of Lyanna's bed was Arthur Dayne's Dawn?

ETA: Duh, it is in this Vanity Fair article linked above, but it is also at other boards.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Raachel2008

[forum4idiots]

2 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Maybe the reason the North Doesn't Remember is because they are stupid. They should be aware that a 14 year old wouldn't marry an imp more than twice her age if she didn't have a knife to her throat. Heck they should realize (since they are Lords) a female has very little say on who she marries. They should already have heard about her involvement in Joffrey's death, since Cersei probably has a bounty on her head, and hopefully they have heard what she did to her "beloved" husband Ramsay.

now you are just being emotional.  you are trying to justify a second tier character to surpass an obvious first tier protagonist.  as far as teh north is concerned, she is still lady bolton, who was married to a lannister who butchered their kin at the red wedding.  no if or when's about it.  ask grandma tyrell on that comment on no say on who she can marry.......oh wait, wasn't that why joffrey died?  and didn't grandma tyrell choose who she married?  didn't caitlyn choose ned over little finger?

yup, the north remembers......how cunning women can be.....which also implied sansa might have married into those 2 families fro her own sake.

[anyanka323]

Upthread someone posted that Catelyn probably would be spinning in her unmarked grave about Jon being proclaimed King in the North with Sansa's full support.  Even if Ned had been honest with her about Jon being her nephew rather than her husband's bastard, she wouldn't have been able to keep that secret. 

I bet Tywin would be steaming mad about the paths his children took after his death.  Tyrion is a rebel working with the last known Targaryan to help her take the Iron Throne.  Cersei unleashed religious zealots that had been suppressed for centuries, successfully planned and executed a terrorist plot to destroy her enemies, and staged a coup putting herself on the throne.  Jamie is the cleanup boy for wayward Lannister allies but his loyalty seems to be wavering.