S06.E10: The Winds of Winter

[Nanrad]

My question is: how informed are the houses about Sansa's involvement?

From what the North can see, Jon has been involved in a lot of shit that makes him appealing as a ruler and, yes, especially fighting by the side of your men. Furthermore, the type of political savviness that Sansa knows doesn't really need to be used up there besides warding off LF. The North was successfully ran for hundreds/thousands of years without all of that scheming. 

Lady Lyanna was born into her position, I believe, so there isn't a way of getting around that. But, when it comes to actually choosing a leader who isn't a true born, but does share the same blood and has a shit ton of experience, yeah, I can see why Jon was appealing. 

[lmsweb]

OK, speaking of Kingsguard....Loras was listed as being heir to High Garden, yes? I know he was in Renly's Kingsguard and that presumably ended when Renly died. If he was the only male heir to House Tyrell, would Olenna have really let him give that up to be in Renly's Kingsguard? I know they haven't mentioned other siblings to Loras and Margery, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. They may have switched the birth order on the show and that would make Wyllis (?) still a possibility and now heir.

[mac123x]

1 hour ago, ToniG said:

Yes:

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

45 minutes ago, Dev F said:

That's in the book. In the show, the "womb" part is omitted. Subsequently the show has been weirdly noncommittal about whether Dany can still have children, making it seem more like she's just decided she won't have any more children.

Book!Dany interprets that as MMD's gloating curse.  However, there's decent evidence that all the preconditions have been met:  Quentin is the sun rising in the west and setting in the east.  During her trek through the Dothraki Sea, she notices that the grass is dying due to the approaching winter.  Her dragons damaged the pyramids "mountains" in Meereen.  And she may have been pregnant and just had a miscarriage:  she notices she's bleeding, then thinks "oh, that's just moonblood.  It's been 2, maybe 3 months since the last one?  hmm."  Then she notices it's a lot more blood then usual.  

Her casual initial reaction implies that she's been menstruating normally; if she hadn't gotten her period since her baby died, she'd have more of an OMG moment.  That it's been 2-3 months since her last period could indicate that she was pregnant, and the excessive nature of this one was her miscarrying due to the extreme privation she's experiencing on her walk back to Meereen.

 

Long story short (too late! [/Clue reference]), they skipped all that shit in the show, and MMD's curse was basically a poetic "fuck you, Drogo is a vegetable.  HA ha".  

[Black Knight]

5 hours ago, Alapaki said:

I know all of these things could go in any direction, and I'm not convinced one way or the other, and ultimately whatever was about to happen it was going to be hellish for Ulenna.

Lena Headey mentioned in her EW interview that the scene as originally written was worse and that they couldn't do it, not that this one was exactly sweetness and light.

Last night I wrote "goodbye and good riddance" to Tommen, but today I actually feel a little bad for him, because he killed himself over a woman who didn't really care about him. Oh, I'm not saying Margaery disliked him or anything like that, but he was just a means to an end for her. If he had died before her she would've felt a few seconds of pity, shrugged, and moved right on. It's another reason Tommen was dumb to betray his mother; at least she actually loved him. (I take her demeanor after his death to show that she had become resigned to the inevitability of the prophecy that all three of her children would die before her.)

I was thinking about Arya and the Frey Pies, and I think the way she did it was a lot simpler than anyone has been thinking of, and thus entirely within plausibility. That is, all she really had to do was kill the two men and cut a fillet or two of meat off their bodies. Then go into the kitchen with her servant girl face and just swap the meat that the cook was going to use for the pies with the human meat. Simple. Easy. No need for her to cook anything herself (as we know she can't cook), chop up all of the bodies, whatever.

I was also thinking about how women are in charge all over the place, and here's why I think that is: The show's streamlining things in terms of Dany's upcoming alliance-by-marriage, clearing the decks so that until she encounters the King in the North, Jon, she doesn't have to consider marriage to anyone to accomplish any of her goals. By killing off all of the Tyrell and Martell men (and having a few of them not exist at all), and replacing Victarion with Yara, they set it up so that Dany was able to make all her alliances with other women, meaning marriage doesn't come into play. I imagine in the books, knowing GRRM, there's quite a lot of jockeying and politicking among the houses, making Dany's life complicated (sort of like Elizabeth I of England) as she tried to keep everyone on a string so as not to alienate powerful houses. People like Doran, Mace, Victarion, the Queen of Thorns all would insist on any alliance being sealed with a marriage pact. But the show wanted to streamline, as it so often does, and so this is how they're doing it, by not having Trystane, Loras, Garlan, Willas, Victarion, etc. around. It saves time being spent on a plotline that won't really go anywhere since Dany isn't going to marry any of those guys in the end.

[slf]

9 minutes ago, lmsweb said:

OK, speaking of Kingsguard....Loras was listed as being heir to High Garden, yes? I know he was in Renly's Kingsguard and that presumably ended when Renly died. If he was the only male heir to House Tyrell, would Olenna have really let him give that up to be in Renly's Kingsguard? I know they haven't mentioned other siblings to Loras and Margery, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. They may have switched the birth order on the show and that would make Wyllis (?) still a possibility and now heir.

The answer is no. Loras was sent to foster in Storm's End after the war and that's where he and Renly fell in love; but if Loras was an only son there's no chance Mace would have sent him away. (Olenna would have had a fit.) Therefor he wouldn't have fallen in love with Renly and joined the Kingsguard. I guess the writers hadn't decided at that point to just have Loras and Margaery as Mace's kids. Switching the birth orders would be just about the only way to save that nonsense.

[Unknown poster]

4 minutes ago, slf said:

The answer is no. Loras was sent to foster in Storm's End after the war and that's where he and Renly fell in love; but if Loras was an only son there's no chance Mace would have sent him away. (Olenna would have had a fit.) Therefor he wouldn't have fallen in love with Renly and joined the Kingsguard. I guess the writers hadn't decided at that point to just have Loras and Margaery as Mace's kids. Switching the birth orders would be just about the only way to save that nonsense.

Was Loras actually in the rainbow guard on the show? I don't recall them mentioning that specifically. Maybe they did, and I've forgotten, but I think Brieanne is the only one to be explicitly named as a member of Renly's seven.

[slf]

14 minutes ago, Unknown poster said:

Was Loras actually in the rainbow guard on the show? I don't recall them mentioning that specifically. Maybe they did, and I've forgotten, but I think Brieanne is the only one to be explicitly named as a member of Renly's seven.

Nope, he wasn't, as it turns out. Despite shadowing Renly during season two he wasn't a member of the Rainbow Guard. He was just representing the Tyrell force. Though why they decided it made sense to send him to KL with Margaery is beyond me. He should have been sent home to Highgarden as he was an only son.

Edited June 28, 2016 by slf

[lmsweb]

16 minutes ago, Unknown poster said:

Was Loras actually in the rainbow guard on the show? I don't recall them mentioning that specifically. Maybe they did, and I've forgotten, but I think Brieanne is the only one to be explicitly named as a member of Renly's seven.

Good question. I'll need to go back and rewatch that episode when Renly names Brienne to his Kingsguard after she defeated Loras in combat. I may just be assuming he was also Kingsguard.

[Raachel2008]

2 hours ago, slf said:

You completely missed my point. Sansa's lack of battle experience was being used against her yet Lyanna has none either. As you pointed out, she wields power because of her bloodline. She's her father's legitimate daughter ergo she's the acting power right now. Regardless. If Rickon were alive right now he would officially be the King, depending on his age, or his sister would have to rule as Regent until he came of age. But he would be Ned's heir, so that would be that.

Um. Robert's Rebellion wasn't treason. Aerys broke faith with the Lord's Paramount so they were no longer bound to serve him. He executed a Lord's Paramount and his son illegally. Olenna knew Joffrey wasn't a Baratheon, which was clearly stated in the series; the Tyrells knew through Renly that Joffrey was a Lannister bastard. They did not Kingslayer, and technically did not kin slay either. No treason there. Robb did not commit treason when he married Talisa, I'm not sure how they could even be considered treason. He broke a promise, yes. But that is not treason. The other instances are treason but I'm not sure what your point is. Yes, Lyanna would be committing treason by supporting the claim of someone other than Ned Stark's legitimate heir as her house is sworn to House Stark. Ergo: treason. 

Yes, I understand what they're saying re: Jon's status as a bastard. What I'm saying is that his status as a bastard is a very real thing in a world that created that status exactly because of this very situation. Being a bastard doesn't matter in a world without nobility and aristocracy, without inheritance. It doesn't stop being irrelevant because they want it to be.

It doesn't matter what Jon said or Sansa said because they aren't people. They are fictional characters saying and doing whatever D&D want them to say and do. And it's bullshit. Having Jon make overtures like this so the fandom will accept the decision is bullshit, though seems to be working. Jon is not legitimate. He did not have to accept the Kingship. He could have said, "No, Winterfell is my sister's birthright." Just like he did in the book. He absolutely could have done that. If he couldn't have done that then him being chosen King meant nothing anyway because they didn't really respect his opinion.

On the show it made perfect sense in a storyline that was botched and idiotic. That's not saying much. 

Right, but passing on Ned Stark's daughter makes no sense, and no one is actually explaining how it does. This is literally idiotic based on how their government functions, how all of them choose to run their houses (I'm guessing we aren't about to see every Snow in the North legitimized). There's nothing simple about this and I'm not sure if you want me to applaud misogyny and the fact that they didn't hold being a hostage forced into a marriage against Sansa.

This is dumb. It's dumbly written. It's a fast way of getting Jon where they think he needs to be.

Multiquoting not working but let's get this this straight first: I do not applaud misoginy at all, and I wish this show would write female characters and girl!power better. But Sansa was married to Ramsay Bolton and Sansa was  married to Tyrion Lannister,  who, by the way, for all the North knows, killed King Joffrey Baraethon and also his own father, the ruler of House Lannister. She was a Lannister and a Bolton by marriage and they overlook that and this is not me making you applaud misoginy or how 'nice' they were - this is a fact about how things were on screen and how things works in this world where women are shipped off to marry whoever their family wants. They saw a daughter and they saw a son. They saw a girl and boy, a woman and a man. They chose the son because right there for them, after everything they went through, the fact Jon was a bastard made no difference for them. This is my point, above any other: they recognized that Jon Snow is a Stark and that they wanted this Snow - not any other Snow bastard but this one - ruling as a legitime Stark. They said 'we are so sure he is a true Stark, Ned Stark's eldest, sot fuck birthright in this case'. Being a bastard became irrelevant in this case because the people who had a saying said so.

The decision was not neither Sansa's or Jon's, and you are absolutety right here that he could have said 'it is her birthright'. I'm willing to bet that Sansa would pass (more safety fom Littlefinger) and also that the Lords would not have accepted. Would have made for a better scene, better writing and tied some lose ends there, though. The way it was done reminds me some arguing in this very same forum that the Iron Throne belongs to the one who can keep the throne and be a ruler, not the one that has the right to the trone. The one who rules is the one has the power, and Jon has the power because the North gave it to him.

Treason/broken promises: it is all betrayal, and technically, some are treason, but unless it is  acknowledged and treated as such it is not (I'm sure Walfer Frey thinks Robb was a traitor, and there is no way Dany doesn't see Ned, Robert and Jamie as traitors; bye the way almost everybody sees Jamie as a traitor for killing the Mad King). Lyanna Mormont chosing whoever she wanted as king is treason? You don't have the right to chose your king? Says who? The Lords who just agreed with her? Sansa who didn't say anything? Jon who didn't say anything? Littlefinger? The status quo that just changed when she decided she had the right to chose her king and nothing happened to her? The North Lords who decided they too would chose Jon? It is treason until it is not, it is the rule until it is not, it it not anyone's right until it is, it is the game until it is not and the game changed there, (in this only case, IMO) but it did. 

It is a fast way to get Jon where the writers need him to be? Absolutely, like Sansa going from someone sitting in the snow and saying she didn't care, ready to be eaten alive by Ramsay's dogs, unable to save herself once again, and then two episodes later being a Sun Tzu wannabe,  Dany getting all her 1,000 ships, Arya showing up at the Twins...  We can all agree that is the plots trumping the characters, and especially  in this case it could have been solved easily with Robb's letter, but D&D do not care about details, do they?

Hecate7, so I just don't quote two posts in a row, I get your point about people being punished when they 'betrayed' others, who is to say Lyanna won't die or the North Lords will all be killed by the White Walkers? Winter is there.

For what is worth I have no problem with Jon ruling the North because it has always been implied he would and he was given the power to do so. I have a couple of issues with how it was done on the show, mostly because D&D toying the whole 'Sansa doesn't trust Jon' angle is a shit thing to do with Sansa and with the fans. But what really pisses me off and will always piss me off is how they made the North Lords look like a bunch of ungrateful, coward or selfish fuckers for the sake of having Sansa and Jon being rescued by Littlefinger. The North is a great entitity in the books and they ruined it in the show. Never forgiving them for denying us Manderly's speech.  But that is what we have so this is it. Hopefully next season will be better. I rest my case.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Raachel2008

[Pogojoco]

Well, if Jamie is heir to Casterly Rock, I guess he could marry Danaerys. Really, though, if Dany wins the whole thing, she has a hell of a lot of houses to build up. End winter and start making babies, Westeros. 

Highgarden (Tyrell) has an old lady, Dragonstone (Baratheon) has no one, Riverrun is in flux, the Vale has sad little Robin Arryn. The Iron Borne are fighting. Does anyone named Lannister actually live at Casterly Rock? Cersei took out Kevan and Lancel- and all her children are dead. I know there are a tonne of Lannister cousins in the book, but will it transfer in the show? Or is it Cersei, Jamie and Tyrion? Dorne is strong, but those ladies are crazy. 

Even lesser houses- no one is at the Dreadfort. After the Battle of the Bastards, how many from House Mormont are left, other than a completely awesome little girl?

I think that's what I've taken away from this episode and maybe from the whole season- it was absolute carnage. All five kings are finally dead and some of the people that killed the five kings are also dead. 

 

The recapper at IO9 said this- at the Red Wedding- Grey Wind was shot with arrows, Robb was stabbed and Catelyn had her throat slit. The chief perpetrators- Tywin Lannister, Roose Bolton and Walder Frey were shot with arrows, stabbed and had their throat slit, respectively. 

[slf]

34 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Multiquoting not working but let's get this this straight first: I do not applaud misoginy at all, and I wish this show would write female characters and girl!power better. But Sansa was married to Ramsay Bolton and Sansa was  married to Tyrion Lannister,  who, by the way, for all the North knows, killed King Joffrey Baraethon and also his own father, the ruler of House Lannister. She was a Lannister and a Bolton by marriage and they overlook that and this is not me making you applaud misoginy or how 'nice' they were - this is a fact about how things were on screen and how things works in this world where women are shipped off to marry whoever their family wants. They saw a daughter and they saw a son. They saw a girl and boy, a woman and a man. They chose the son because right there for them, after everything they went through, the fact Jon was a bastard made no difference for them. This is my point, above any other: they recognized that Jon Snow is a Stark and that they wanted this Snow - not any other Snow bastard but this one - ruling as a legitime Stark. They said 'we are so sure he is a true Stark, Ned Stark's eldest, sot fuck birthright in this case'. Being a bastard became irrelevant in this case because the people who had a saying said so.

Well, the Northerners would be more than happy to overlook that. Why would they care that she was the wife of the man they believed responsible for murdering Joffrey? Joffrey was the illegitimate son of Cersei and Jamie Lannister, an usurper, the killer of Ned Stark* (and a host of other Northerners), who held another Stark hostage, and made war against the North. The Northerners would be thrilled with that. And why would they need to overlook her marriages when they know she was forced into them? This isn't some great virtue on behalf of Northerners. They aren't doing her a favor here.

Again, you can say "being a bastard meant nothing" but that doesn't mean anything. These men and women only have the power they do because of the very law they're ignoring in favor of Jon. This does not make an ounce of sense. Jon is not a legitimate choice. On what ground are they saying his being a bastard is irrelevant? Oh yeah, each of them is the Lord or Lady of their House by the law of succession!

*Can we all appreciate that these men went to war on behalf of Ned Stark who was arrested after he attempted to expose the fact that Joffrey was illegitimate?

34 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

The decision was not neither Sansa's or Jon's, and you are absolutety right here that he could have said 'it is her birthright'. I'm willing to bet that Sansa would pass (more safety fom Littlefinger) and also that the Lords would not have accepted. Would have made for a better scene, better writing and tied some lose ends there, though. The way it was done reminds me some arguing in this very same forum that the Iron Throne belongs to the one who can keep the throne and be a ruler, not the one that has the right to the trone. The one who rules is the one has the power, and Jon has the power because the North gave it to him.

Sansa is safest from Littlefinger as Queen. She can reject his plans by simply not going along with them. She could order his arrest for bartering her to the Boltons (or hell just frame his ass). Sansa does not need to reject her birthright to undermine LF's plans. If Jon is claiming the throne by might makes right then he's essentially claiming the throne by conquest. Which...still makes him an usurper.

34 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Treason/broken promises: it is all betrayal, and technically, some are treason, but unless it is  acknowledged and treated as such it is not (I'm sure Walfer Frey thinks Robb was a traitor, and there is no way Dany doesn't see Ned, Robert and Jamie as traitors; bye the way almost everybody sees Jamie as a traitor for killing the Mad King). Lyanna Mormont chosing whoever she wanted as king is treason? You don't have the right to chose your king? Says who? The Lords who just agreed with her? Sansa who didn't say anything? Jon who didn't say anything? Littlefinger? The status quo that just changed when she decided she had the right to chose her king and nothing happened to her? The North Lords who decided they too would chose Jon? It is treason until it is not, it is the rule until it is not, it it not anyone's right until it is, it is the game until it is not and the game changed there, (in this only case, IMO) but it did. 

A betrayal isn't treason. Your spouse stepping out on you isn't treason (unless you're the King). Dany can see Ned as a traitor till the cows come home, that doesn't change the fact that her father broke faith with Rickard Stark. And no, you don't have the right to choose your King, that's why he's your King. We're talking feudalism here. Monarchy. Aristocracy. You're born to it, or you marry into it, or you take it by force. The North is not a democracy nor is it trying to be one. Those Northern Lords who "voted" for Jon aren't going to go to their castles and hold an election to see if their people want a different Lord.

The game doesn't exist. That's the point. It's not a game. D&D naming the show Game of Thrones shows how little they understand. The only people who think it's a game and "play" accordingly are self-centered idiots like Cersei and Littlefinger. The line of succession is real, the aristocracy is real, the monarchy is real, and thousands upon thousands of people have died because of it and for it.

34 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

We can all agree that is the plots trumping the chatacters, and especially  in this case it could have been solved easily with Robb's letter, but D&D do not care about details, do they?

Yes, that is my point. This was badly written. That is literally my point.

Edited June 28, 2016 by slf

[shireenbamfatheon]

I guess I'm in the minority but I think they're setting Dany up for a massive fall next season. Her arc this season was a bit too reminiscent of her season 3 arc where she won victory after victory, kept gaining armies and giving speeches, only for everything to collapse in the following seasons until her forces grew again because Westeros is endgame. 

Like I said in another forum, I think people underestimate Cersei's madness and overestimate Dany's ability to successfully wage war with minimal loss. In Dany's House of the Undying vision, winter has already arrived in King's Landing and the Red Keep is burned down. It wouldn't surprise me if Cersei sets fire to the entire city to take most of Dany's forces down with her; she was ready to commit suicide during the Battle of Blackwater. Or if Dany accidentally ignites the wildfire with Dracarys. There's that one shot from Bran's vision of a dragon flying above an intact King's Landing. But he also has the HotU vision of snow in an abandoned King's Landing with the roof of the Red Keep burned down. 

Cersei will possibly ally with Euron who has most of the Ironborn behind him, and I still think he'll get one dragon. I think Dany will end up losing two of her dragons, either to others or to death (because budget). 

Winter is going to make it very tough for someone like the Dothraki and Unsullied to fight, and I think Dany will come out as the winner, but will have lost most of her army.

They're giving Dany so many soldiers, more than she'll have in the books and more than is necessary, to make it appear that it'll be an easy win, but she'll most likely lose a substantial amount in the next season because it's going too well for her, and the conflict they're setting up seems too big for them to resolve in the span of an episode or two since the Others won't invade till the season 7 finale. 

Moreover, Cersei is without a doubt hated by the people of King's Landing, but Dany is invading with Dothraki, Ironborn and Dornishmen and is hailed the messiah of a foreign religion. I don't think it's a coincidence she's allied with the most despised people in Planetos. Her alliance with the Ironborn alone is going to alienate the North since they'd been raping and pillaging their way through their lands for years while the men went south with Robb.  They accepted the wildlings because they fought for and with Jon against Ramsay while the Northerners themselves stayed home. But the Ironborn? No frickin way.

In juxtaposition to her reception in Slaver's Bay, where she was well-loved because she freed slaves, there isn't anything Dany can give the people of Westeros that they crave. She's bringing war and a hundred thousand hungry mouths to feed to a land where their food sources are already depleted. She said no reaving and pillaging, but is Dorne or Highgarden gonna be feeding all those people? Last season Dany was certain the smallfolk would welcome her with open arms, but I think she's in for a rude awakening. 

Of course this is pure speculation on my part, and it could go either way, but this show loves its shocking moments and plot twists. People have been certain Dany would conquer Westeros since her dragons hatched, but I think it going another way is the biggest plot twist of them all. The seeds were already planted when Dany went to touch the Iron Throne in her vision, only to never get around to it. 

Lastly, Tyrion is the only person keeping Dany in check, but I'll be shocked if he'll be okay with the alliance with Dorne next season when the Sand Snakes and Ellaria killed his niece in cold blood after he sent her there against her will because he thought she'd be safe. And for that same reason, I don't see Jaime allying with Dany, not that she's particularly happy with him. I think Tyrion is going to be one of Dany's three betrayals, in both books and show, and that he'll betray her for love of Jaime. I wonder if that's why they had the Lannister brothers part on good terms. Again, pure speculation on my part, but I don't see it going too well for Dany. 

[Gertrude]

25 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

I think people underestimate Cersei's madness and overestimate Dany's ability to successfully wage war with minimal loss. In Dany's House of the Undying vision, winter has already arrived in King's Landing and the Red Keep is burned down. It wouldn't surprise me if Cersei sets fire to the entire city to take most of Dany's forces down with her; she was ready to commit suicide during the Battle of Blackwater. Or if Dany accidentally ignites the wildfire with Dracarys. There's that one shot from Bran's vision of a dragon flying above an intact King's Landing. But he also has the HotU vision of snow in an abandoned King's Landing with the roof of the Red Keep burned down.

Oh, I know right now it looks like Dany should smash Cersei, but there has to be some obstacle for her. I just doubt that it's Cersei. I don't expect Dany to go straight for King's Landing - I'm guessing they try the same thing Aegon did - use surprise to capture some of the Stormlands. No need to stop in Dorne as they already have them, and no need to waste what little surprise they can steal when traveling with such a large fleet. I expect that most of the fight will be on the march up to KL and by the time Dany actually gets there, it's all but over.

And you're right, I wouldn't be surprised if it Cersei decides to take herself out in a blaze of glory. She was willing to do so when she thought Blackwater was lost, this time she just has 1000% more crazy on her side.

[jeansheridan]

Why do people think Cersei is crazy?  I don't think she has had a break with reality at all.  She is paranoid in the books, but the show version has made her mostly rational.  Her hatred of Tyrion closed her mind to other potential killers of Joffrey, but being narrow minded isn't insane.  

[InsertWordHere]

53 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Lastly, Tyrion is the only person keeping Dany in check, but I'll be shocked if he'll be okay with the alliance with Dorne next season when the Sand Snakes and Ellaria killed his niece in cold blood after he sent her there against her will because he thought she'd be safe.

I also wonder if he'll find out that Olenna framed him for Joffrey's murder. This alliance might not be as harmonious as it appeared to be at the end of the episode. 

[Raachel2008]

7 minutes ago, Pogojoco said:

Well, if Jamie is heir to Casterly Rock, I guess he could marry Danaerys. Really, though, if Dany wins the whole thing, she has a hell of a lot of houses to build up. End winter and start making babies, Westeros. 

 

Marry the guy who killed her own father? I don't quite think she would be up to this. But you have a good point about building up the houses. I imagine a couple of North houses are going to disappear when the White Walkers come, the Baratheons are done, Martells are going... It will be interesting to see the new houses coming up, like House of Seaworth (Davos better not die).

12 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

ILastly, Tyrion is the only person keeping Dany in check, but I'll be shocked if he'll be okay with the alliance with Dorne next season when the Sand Snakes and Ellaria killed his niece in cold blood after he sent her there against her will because he thought she'd be safe. And for that same reason, I don't see Jaime allying with Dany, not that she's particularly happy with him. I think Tyrion is going to be one of Dany's three betrayals, in both books and show, and that he'll betray her for love of Jaime. I wonder if that's why they had the Lannister brothers part on good terms. Again, pure speculation on my part, but I don't see it going too well for Dany. 

But doesn't Tyrion already knows about the alliance with Dorne? He is aware of where  Varys went and some of those ships in Dany's fleet had the Dorne sigil, so I don't see why he would have a problem with that. I can't remember if he knows that Myrcella is dead, but Tyrion is one of the very few people in the show that undertands that revenge after revenge after revenge will never bring the peace they all need, and they all need to erase all that crap and start again with a clean slate. However, there is Olenna killing Jofffrey and putting the blame on him, but how is he ever going to find that?

I like the idea of Tyrion being one of Dany's three treasons because of his love for his brother, but will the show even go there? One season left, maybe two, and the regular viewer still doesn't know about valonqr or AA or Rhaegar being Jon's father, just to name three essential points for the future of Westeros.

21 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Oh, I know right now it looks like Dany should smash Cersei, but there has to be some obstacle for her. I just doubt that it's Cersei. I don't expect Dany to go straight for King's Landing - I'm guessing they try the same thing Aegon did - use surprise to capture some of the Stormlands. No need to stop in Dorne as they already have them, and no need to waste what little surprise they can steal when traveling with such a large fleet. I expect that most of the fight will be on the march up to KL and by the time Dany actually gets there, it's all but over

With three dragons and all those men Dany is almost unstoppable, take the dragons out of the equation, give Cersei the Lannister army, the Freys, Euron and some vassal houses and it may not be so unbalaced, I guess. Dany lost people in the siege of Meereen, the Dothraki are useless in the sea, and even with Yara's ships it wouldn't be absurd to think that Euron could cause some real damage there. I just don't see the Stormlands happening, the Baraethon forces are gone, what is there for her, besides somewhere to camp? I think the biggest fight will be at the sea, but any fight there is only ever going to work if the dragons are gone, otherwise it is more of the same. Maybe it will be one of those times when  Dracarys is bored out of his mind and decides to see what is ahead and take his brothers with him. 

[AGuyToo]

1 hour ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Lastly, Tyrion is the only person keeping Dany in check, but I'll be shocked if he'll be okay with the alliance with Dorne next season when the Sand Snakes and Ellaria killed his niece in cold blood after he sent her there against her will because he thought she'd be safe.

This is a really good point. I had completely forgotten about Myrcella. How does Tyrion accept the presence of Ellaria in the alliance given this?

[Gertrude]

1 hour ago, jeansheridan said:

Why do people think Cersei is crazy?  I don't think she has had a break with reality at all.  She is paranoid in the books, but the show version has made her mostly rational.  Her hatred of Tyrion closed her mind to other potential killers of Joffrey, but being narrow minded isn't insane.  

In my case, crazy is a shorthand for unpredictable/dangerous/self-destructive/ruthless/nothing to lose. That and I still have in the back of my mind her paranoid, reckless, short-sighted book version. Even if the show isn't portraying that side of her, her actions will broadly reflect that version.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Gertrude

[Gertrude]

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

With three dragons and all those men Dany is almost unstoppable, take the dragons out of the equation, give Cersei the Lannister army, the Freys, Euron and some vassal houses and it may not be so unbalaced, I guess. Dany lost people in the siege of Meereen, the Dothraki are useless in the sea, and even with Yara's ships it wouldn't be absurd to think that Euron could cause some real damage there. I just don't see the Stormlands happening, the Baraethon forces are gone, what is there for her, besides somewhere to camp? I think the biggest fight will be at the sea, but any fight there is only ever going to work if the dragons are gone, otherwise it is more of the same. Maybe it will be one of those times when  Dracarys is bored out of his mind and decides to see what is ahead and take his brothers with him. 

I think that's a pretty important detail. She isn't going to fight her battles at sea, for the most part. they are transport and support - fighting only other naval forces backed up by dragons. Her troops (Unsullied, Dothraki) are best utilized on land, not to mention the Dornish and Tyrell forces. They absolutely need a base of operations and time for Targ loyalists to gather to her. My prediction is an invasion south of King's Landing, with a march up the coast. Hopefully to persuade other houses to back her through shock and awe, and conquering if necessary.

Having said that, Dragonstone is significant to her and that also might be one of her first stops, even though it's a bit close to KL and not a good base for her ground troops.

[patchwork]

He probably doesn't know.

There's also Tyrion's life being ruined by Littlefinger and Olenna's regicide. I'm not sure who he'll defect to because I doubt it'll be Cersei's side but I can't see him sticking with Dany if she blows passed their actions or maybe once he finds out he'll just quietly ruin them.

I assume in the books (if we ever get there) when Jon is crowned KITN a true born heir isn't sitting right beside him and in the show I doubt the writers even realised what a massive insult the Northerners just dealt Sansa.

I don't want Jon and Sansa to get together, they grew up as brother and sister and being cousins doesn't change that. A marriage between them would be nothing but awkward and weird but I can't deny that they look damn pretty together. 

[forum4idiots]

12 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

Except for the fact that he appears to be sororosexual--only capable of sexual attraction to his sister. Other women have been throwing themselves at him all of his life, and he has literally never even noticed. But I think it is probably fitting that he go celibate now, since the entire time he was under an oath of celibacy, it was really just a secret marriage to Cersei. I finally figured out why I am so fond of Jaime--it's that everything that really matters to him in life, has to be a secret, from his most heroic deed to the love of his life, to the paternity of his children. Nothing about him can actually be known. Now that the children are all dead, he could actually marry Cersei--there's no risk, and who would stop them? But now that he can, he won't--I doubt he can even stand to look at her after what she's done.

it's looking more like he will kill her out of love...a mercy killing so to speak.

prophecy is:

"Maggy: Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

if i have to guess, i believe cersei has gone mad now...insane (tears have drowned her, meaning she probably went mad with grief).  she will probably mimic actions that of the mad king while on the throne and will probably go one step too far that for her own sake, jamie will have no choice but to kill her to save herself...if that makes any sense.  this actually coincides with jamie's character development.

what is interesting is what dany said about marrying into one of the noble houses.  watching the episode again, it's almost like a toss up.  tyrion looked as if he has fallen for dany.  his situation will definitely change when (and she will die, that much we know) cersei dies....... but then again, jamie will also be free.....and marrying jamie might also coincide with the other prophecy of cersei "Maggy: Aye. Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.".......taking all cersei holds dear, including jamie?  put all that together, perhaps this will also be the final string to make jamie kill her, a possible attempt by cersei to harm dany once she takes the 7 kingdoms.  an insane cersei with vindictive intentions towards dany for the arranged marriage with jamie (one fo the last things cersei holds dear)

[forum4idiots]

from the episode "battle of the bastards", cersei's meister said "the rumors are true"..."much more".....safe to assume they were referring to the mad king's wildfire plan.  given that they only used a small amount to destroy one building, cersei has some in stock.

are we about to see the king killer once again do a heroic deed and kill cersei if she mimic's the mad king's actions......hear me out.

this is the prophecy:

"Maggy: Aye. Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.

Maggy: Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, she said. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

going back to dany's break up with his lover from the second sons.  she said she might have to marry into one of the noble houses.  though in the back of my mind kind of had a feeling it might be tyrion since it looked like he was really falling in love with her, jamie makes more sense and more fitting with the prophecy.  jamie is the last thing that cersei holds dear, and a marriage between dany and jamie will fulfill the requirement of the first part of the prophecy.

i think at this point, cersei is already insane, caused by her grief of losing all her children.  all she has left is jamie.  so how will a mad woman liek cersei handle the scenario of dany conquering westeros and possibly marrying his beloved younger twin brother?..........remember the leftover wildfire i mentioned in the beginning?  yup.  she will copy th emad king and try to blow up the city so she can't have any of it, including jamie........and this will be the pinnacle of jamie's transformation.  honor, duty, and all that shit.  going back to tyrion's talk with dany from the season finale, forsaking your love for the good of the kingdom, or some BS speech like that......jamie will sacrifice his love for her to save the kingdom....and to also save cersei from her madness.

===========

few notables:

the scept building or whatever it's called......worry not.  it looks like they recycled the building.  doesn't the meister library look just like the blown up building?

as some article somewhere pointed out, the chandeliers were the glowing things in the opening scenes fo the show....with the dragon, wolf, stag emblems on them.  first i thought the sam scene was so pointless in that season finale.  but now, maybe the director threw us all a nugget that those chandeliers might be forgotten valyrian weapons fro the first war and put there for safe keeping by the meisters of old.

anybody else think tyrion has already fallen in love with dany?  the looks he was giving and his tone....like a lovesick puppy.

[Oscirus]

Quote

I think people are getting the sexual assault of Ulenna from a spoiler that said "gregor has his way with her" but I didn't see that on the show. He was very clearly up by her head when Cersi closed the door. I think he did gouge her eyes out and torture her but I think Cersi wanted her to suffer in the way she had

She locked the septa in the room with a known rapist and then proceeded to slut shame the septa as she closed the door. I guess they could've removed all subtlety and shown the actual rape ala crasters keeps, but I thought it was pretty obvious where they were going with that scene.

Quote

Can someone explain why Bran is going to the Wall? For winter/Night's King to come, they have to cross the wall, which means Bran has to cross it and break the magic. But shouldn't Bran think that he should stay away from the wall for precisely that reason - so as not to break the magic and do to the south of the wall what he accidentally did to the 3ER's hideout BC of the Night King's mark? I want to know Bran's logic, not what has to happen for the story to move forward

His uncle Benjen seems to think that won't happen otherwise, he wouldn't have bought Bran to the wall.

Quote

I don't consider Jon a deserter of the Night's Watch.  His oath was to stand watch until his death.  He fucking died.  Obligation met.  Resurrection doesn't erase that fact

I do. Maybe if he left as soon as he came back to life, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but then his continuing to perform the duties of commander and then leave was bullshit imo. But then again this is the same organization that has no problem with Sam running around with a makeshift family.  Night's watch really needs to get their shit together.

Quote

Lastly, Tyrion is the only person keeping Dany in check, but I'll be shocked if he'll be okay with the alliance with Dorne next season when the Sand Snakes and Ellaria killed his niece in cold blood after he sent her there against her will because he thought she'd be safe.

Dany pretty much listens to whatever Tyrion says. Hell, she let him rail against Theon in that meeting a few shows back. If he doesn't want the Dorne alliance, she'll get rid of it. That being said, if he does find out about Myrcella he'd be very likely to turn on Varys since Varys  was the one who kept that information from him.

Also I never thought I'd say this but Gotham did the "feeding a villains relatives" to them scene better. That scene and the murder by birds came off as too cutesy. More of a wink and nod to book readers as opposed to  something necessary for the plot.

[Gertrude]

My thoughts weren't that Tyrion was falling for Dany. He was telling her that someone will love her again and I think he was probably reflecting on himself and wondering if anyone would ever love him again and thinking about Shae. That's my take, anyway.

Something I've seen pointed out and I can't unknow. Edmure was back in the Frey dungeons after Jaime offered him comfortable rooms at Casterly Rock. God damn it show, this is the self inflicted type of wound that drives me crazy. Jaime's word can't be trusted when the show had him with Brienne and oathkeeper, and then so disgusted at Frey's comparison of themselves. What are you trying to show? Jaime on the brink of coming back to season 3 Jaime or fuck everyone who isn't us Jaime?

[forum4idiots]

15 hours ago, Door said:

Everyone has covered all I wanted to say about this episode so I'll just leave the niggling questions I have regarding the dragons. They're all boys, aren't they? What is the lifespan of a dragon? Are they the last resurgence of dragons ever to be or could more fossilized eggs be transformed by Dany? It's bittersweet that they miraculously hatch but there will never be others.

a friend of mine who reads the books said that in the books, there are other eggs scattered around the world.  i just wonder if the show will even touch the subject.  if they do, as per her namesake, mother of dragons, she will be able to hatch them for the coming war.

i still think hbo will end the series prior to the great war and make the war arc with the white walkers into a 3 part movie.  considering a season is about 10 hours, a trilogy would consist of a full season.

[Oscirus]

Quote

My thoughts weren't that Tyrion was falling for Dany. He was telling her that someone will love her again and I think he was probably reflecting on himself and wondering if anyone would ever love him again and thinking about Shae. That's my take, anyway.

That was mine too. Dany just did the same thing with Dario that he did with Shae and this whole season has been highlighting Tyrion's loneliness.

[forum4idiots]

oh yeah....let;s not forget sir davos.

i think he deserves an emmy nod for his work this season....especially that scene when confronting melissandre

[OakGoblinFly]

15 hours ago, polyhymnia said:

I thought Tyrion telling Dany that she was now in the great game was ridiculous.   She's been in it her whole life - just moved from pawn to queen (or whatever corresponding pieces there are in crevasse).

Didn't he say "great" game?  Dany may have been in the game for entire life, but she was playing minor league.  

[MarySNJ]

9 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

Actually, no. You don't have the right to choose your king. That is why, historically, people have either opted out of monarchies, or developed more representational government that reduced the king's power to a figurehead. The King is born to it.

In this story there is magic backing the king up, as there was supposed to be IRL. Have you noticed that everyone who commits treason in this story is punished for it, whether or not it's discovered? Even the Tyrells, who dispatched a thoroughly horrible king and chose a different one, died later in much the way they'd have died had they been caught.

Ned and Robert were OK when they seized the throne--they did it by the rules. But Ned committed treason against Robert by hiding Jon Snow. He died for treason--just not the right one. Cat, Robb, the Tyrells (except Olenna, for whom a worse punishment is losing her posterity), Theon Greyjoy--everyone who tries to get away with treason gets it in the end. All three of Cersei's children died, all of Olenna's family, and the two of them will also die, probably in some way resembling the punishment they each evaded.

It's an interesting perspective, and I agree that treasonous acts are punished in Westeros. But what happens if one act of treason is a rebellion against other acts of treason?  In this case, Joffrey and Tommen who were not Robert's trueborn children and the treasonous offspring of Cersei and Jamie, are not legitimate rulers. Robb was elected King in the North by the Northern Lords, when the alternative was bending the knee to an illegitimate King. Now Cersei has usurped the throne after indirectly causing the death of the last (illegitimate) King and murdering the legitimate Queen. Why would the Northmen, the Valemen or anyone else be bound to either Tommen or Cersei under the circumstances?

I tend to think that the Iron Throne will be nothing more than a relic by the time Spring returns anyway. I'm hoping that one of the outcomes of this story will be a more representative form of monarchy, or at the very least there will be no King of the Seven Kingdoms, and the regions will self-govern; the way it was before Aegon. I note that it's already started with Daenerys who, while she is a hereditary Princess of one Kingdom, became Queen of others due to her actions, not her blood. She states as a goal to "break the wheel", so we will see if she manages to accomplish that.

[Misplaced]

13 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I want to see Dany's reaction to a living blood relative.  I just don't think she will see him as her enemy.  

Whereas I can't see it going well ... Dany's entire claim to the Iron Throne is based on the fact that Rhaegar has (had?) no living trueborn children, all her brothers are dead and she is the last of the line.  Jon is a greater threat to her rule than any Lannister: Jon is the real deal, probably a dragon rider to boot and battle-tested (hmm, sorta battle-failed also, but in any case).  IF he is trueborn, then a marriage between them doesn't cement HER rule, it cements HIS. Even if he's Rhaegar's bastard, given the world view, a marriage puts him on the Iron Throne.  So no, I can't see Dany terribly thrilled that Jon "call me [Jonaerys] maybe" Targaryen is wandering around, or that she would agree to marry him.  More speculation:

Spoiler

I watched Dany's vision from the House of the Undying (season 2) recently and thought -- ok, the sun rising in the west is probably dragon flames over Westeros; the rest of the prophecy could be a vision of the war with the White Walkers, and if all that happens it means Khal Drogo "returns" (as a wight??) but it says to me that she joins him and their kid i.e. dies.  Guess we'll find out next year...

[stagmania]

5 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

I like the idea of Tyrion being one of Dany's three treasons because of his love for his brother, but will the show even go there? One season left, maybe two, and the regular viewer still doesn't know about valonqr or AA or Rhaegar being Jon's father, just to name three essential points for the future of Westeros.

We've already seen them start to cut major corners, and that's going to have to continue if they're really wrapping all of this up in 13 episodes. I expect that the subtleties of history and unfinished business between characters is mostly going to be glossed over so that the story can keep moving. Especially where Dorne is concerned; nothing about the Ellaria/Sand Snakes plot has really made sense, and I don't expect that to change.

[Misplaced]

12 hours ago, ToniG said:

Since Joffrey and Myrcella were buried in the sept, their remains are ash now. She asked for his ashes to be put where the sept was, so he would be with his siblings.

Yeah, I know that's  what she said (I think this is right -- "He should be with his grandfather, brother and sister, Burn him, and bury his ashes where the Sept once stood."), but the camera was lingering lovingly on Tommen's very smushed head when she said it, in that very dismissive "whatever, I don't really care" way.  So I did wonder whether her refusal to even think about burying him elsewhere was related to her fixation on perfection.  It also occurred to me after I posted that Cersei may have been saying yep, you let me down along with everyone else, so let's just burn you up too and toss you in the Sept with every other person who didn't support me ... bring on the crazy! 

[Ariah]

Should we assume that next season opens with Dany's fleet decimated and the dragons dead?

1. I saw no dragon-carrier for the poor things to rest, they will lose strength and drown soon enough.

2. But before that, they will get hungry and start to eat the horses under the decks of those ships...

3. ... tearing the ships apart to get there.

[Gertrude]

I've always been curious about the logistics of the dragons. However, the original 3 made it, so it has to be possible. The ships would be sailing close enough to the shore that the dragons could easily fly back and forth to rest and eat. They move faster than the ships do. the ships will have to restock at ports along the way anyways. When they get to the narrow sea, there are stepstone islands connecting southern Essos to Dorne, so I don't forsee a problem. I mean, I'm sure it's not an easy thing, but it's absolutely doable.

I don't expect the show to address any of this, and frankly don't want them to. They've only got a limited time to show us stuff, so cutting this out in favor of the spectacle of ships and dragons on the open sea is completely fine by me.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Gertrude

[Constantinople]

9 hours ago, lmsweb said:

OK, speaking of Kingsguard....Loras was listed as being heir to High Garden, yes? I know he was in Renly's Kingsguard and that presumably ended when Renly died. If he was the only male heir to House Tyrell, would Olenna have really let him give that up to be in Renly's Kingsguard? I know they haven't mentioned other siblings to Loras and Margery, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. They may have switched the birth order on the show and that would make Wyllis (?) still a possibility and now heir.

Olenna told Ellaria, "Cersei stole the future from me".  I don't think Olenna would have said that if she had some living grandsons because then she would still have a future, though doubtless, she would still want revenge for Margaery, Loras & Mace.

[deedee]

I know I am being dumb but can someone explain something to me. If magic prevents the White walkers from crossing the wall what is the big problem? They have moved the Wildlings (the ones that are left) to the safe side so who exactly is in danger? I must be missing something.

[Constantinople]

7 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Why do people think Cersei is crazy?

You mean, aside from blowing up the Sept of Baelor with hundreds of people in it?

[snowblossom2]

13 hours ago, Pogojoco said:

He might be going to Castle Black- not knowing Jon isn't there anymore. He can hang out near the Wall and not pass the Wall (if that is even a thing he can't do.) He can hang out with Dolorous Edd. Meera can send a raven to her father and Bran can send one to Winterfell. It's most definitely safer than the wilderness.

 

Also, just generally, Jamie isn't heir to Casterly Rock. He's Kingsguard, which basically has the same vows as Night's Watch. Tyrion's been the heir for a while. Also, I doubt Jamie survives, but I completely see Tyrion living in both show and book. 

 

13 hours ago, Alapaki said:

I think she was in the scene lingering around when Jaime was there.  It's possible she overheard Walder bragging to Jaime about having Edmure back in a cell.  

I have to think that if Bran going south of the Wall created an opening for the Night King to follow, then the 3ER would've informed Bran of that when he was hastily "downloading" information as the Night King approached the Tree.  That, or at least communicated that to Benjen.  Either way, I'd think that someone would've told Bran "whatever you do, stay on this side of the Wall!".

But the 3ER didn't explicitly warn him about surfing the weirnet. IMO BC he foresaw that Bran had to do that and bring the wall down for winter to end/Night's King be defeated. Benjen wouldn't know about the NK's mark on Bran

 

My concern is that Bran knows that the NK's mark allowed the NK to get through/break the magic of the 3ER's hideout. Shouldn't he at least wonder if he'll break the Wall's magic?

[mac123x]

14 minutes ago, deedee said:

I know I am being dumb but can someone explain something to me. If magic prevents the White walkers from crossing the wall what is the big problem? They have moved the Wildlings (the ones that are left) to the safe side so who exactly is in danger? I must be missing something.

The magic of the Wall might not be well known, and it might not be as affective as advertised.  After all, waaay back in season 1 they brought a wight through the wall and it almost killed Jon and Lord Mormont.

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

4 hours ago, mac123x said:

4 hours ago, deedee said:

know I am being dumb but can someone explain something to me. If magic prevents the White walkers from crossing the wall what is the big problem? They have moved the Wildlings (the ones that are left) to the safe side so who exactly is in danger? I must be missing something.

The magic of the Wall might not be well known, and it might not be as affective as advertised.  After all, waaay back in season 1 they brought a wight through the wall and it almost killed Jon and Lord Mormont.

Mac, as you noted, the wight did not cross the wall on his own accord.  He was carried across by some Night's Watchmen, who thought he was a mere corpse.

Deedee, the Big Problem is that White Walkers are intent on crossing that wall -- and the book and the show (a little) have presented several ways they could do so.  And uhhh, plot development demands that they do so.  Among the means of entry are:

• some old horn or other that is believed to have Wall-shattering abilities (held by Wildlings, or the Ironborn, or toted around unknowingly by Sam, or buried north of the Wall, (I forget))
• no member of the Night's Watch remaining true
• Bran with his Night King-marked arm crossing through the Wall.

Edited June 28, 2016 by RimaTheBirdGirl

[Triskan]

I wonder... will next season's credits only be Westeros ?

Very likely in my opinion... unless they give a sideline story to Daario, or Jorah (though I'm still convinced he'll show up at the Citadel, I was really expecting him to be in the library in the finale), but otherwise (and with Arya back in Westeros), there is no reason to go to Essos now.

[benteen]

I guess the credits will now be King's Landing, Winterfell, the Wall and wherever Dany is.  Maybe the Iron Islands for Euron.

[Umbelina]

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/06/game-of-thrones-easter-eggs-callbacks-season-6-episode-10-the-winds-of-winter

Little Easter eggs in the episode. 

[DavidJSnyder]

I think we'll get an Oldtown location for Sam at some point.

[jcin617]

3 minutes ago, benteen said:

I guess the credits will now be King's Landing, Winterfell, the Wall and wherever Dany is.  Maybe the Iron Islands for Euron.

If Dany's forces swung around to the Iron Islands and took care of that, they could then launch an attack on the Westerlands from the north, with Highgarden and Dorne coming in from the south.   Then both armies just have to march east to King's Landing.  

[Alapaki]

Quote

Yeah, I know that's  what she said (I think this is right -- "He should be with his grandfather, brother and sister, Burn him, and bury his ashes where the Sept once stood."), but the camera was lingering lovingly on Tommen's very smushed head when she said it, in that very dismissive "whatever, I don't really care" way.

I was curious, but didn't have a chance to re-watch, whether Cersei had included "his father" in that litany.  Assuming the bolded quote is accurate, it appears that Cersei is giving up even any pretense of her children being Robert's.

Kingsguard: There's an interesting passage in Book 1, as the King's party is heading back to KL from Winterfell and Robert and Ned go off riding alone, it is revealed that Robert has offered the late Jon Arryn's role as Warden of the East to Jaime.  Ned objects (internally, I think, not out loud) to this because Jaime was already in line to be Warden of the West after Tywin, and no one man should have so much power, especially not a Lannister.  Ned never entertains the objection that Jaime is precluded from being Warden by virtue of being in the Kingsguard.  I realize that Warden is not strictly the same as being Lord of Casterly Rock, but both roles require a physical presence in the region in question.  The Warden is charged with, among other things, preserving the King's peace in that region.  I wonder if that was just a bit of sloppy writing on Martin's part?

Also, someone mentioned upthread that they thought Tyrion's rejection of his entire family was unduly quick and/or that we should have seen Tyrion's reaction to Cersei's blowing up the Sept.  I agree that there would've been a natural parallel to have Cersei blow up the Sept and coronate herself in the same episode that Dany burned down Vaes Dothrak.  However, I understand why they would've wanted to not blow both of those wads in one episode and how the pacing of the season really wouldn't allow it.  

[Constantinople]

18 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

I was curious, but didn't have a chance to re-watch, whether Cersei had included "his father" in that litany.  Assuming the bolded quote is accurate, it appears that Cersei is giving up even any pretense of her children being Robert's.

When asked by Qyburn what to do with Tommen, Cersei did in fact say, "He should be with his grandfather, his brother, his sister. Burn him and bury his ashes where the sept once stood."  But that doesn't mean she's given up any pretense of her children being Robert's.

Back in Season 3, when Joffrey was giving Margaery a tour of the Sept of Baelor, and Cersei and Olenna were chaperoning them, Cersei told Olenna where Robert was buried

Quote

Olenna: Your husband, was he buried here as well?

Cersei: No, he wanted his remains returned to Storm's End.

So excluding Robert from the list of those buried at the Sept of Baelor is consistent with Tommen's alleged parentage since Tommen's "father" was buried at Storm's End.

Upon reflection, what seems odd is that Tywin was buried in KIng's Landing rather than back at Casterly Rock.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Constantinople
P.S. Edmure still blows

[Euphony]

I got $20 that says Jon's targ name is Aemon.

[benteen]

1 hour ago, Alapaki said:

I was curious, but didn't have a chance to re-watch, whether Cersei had included "his father" in that litany.  Assuming the bolded quote is accurate, it appears that Cersei is giving up even any pretense of her children being Robert's.

Kingsguard: There's an interesting passage in Book 1, as the King's party is heading back to KL from Winterfell and Robert and Ned go off riding alone, it is revealed that Robert has offered the late Jon Arryn's role as Warden of the East to Jaime.  Ned objects (internally, I think, not out loud) to this because Jaime was already in line to be Warden of the West after Tywin, and no one man should have so much power, especially not a Lannister.  Ned never entertains the objection that Jaime is precluded from being Warden by virtue of being in the Kingsguard.  I realize that Warden is not strictly the same as being Lord of Casterly Rock, but both roles require a physical presence in the region in question.  The Warden is charged with, among other things, preserving the King's peace in that region.  I wonder if that was just a bit of sloppy writing on Martin's part?

Also, someone mentioned upthread that they thought Tyrion's rejection of his entire family was unduly quick and/or that we should have seen Tyrion's reaction to Cersei's blowing up the Sept.  I agree that there would've been a natural parallel to have Cersei blow up the Sept and coronate herself in the same episode that Dany burned down Vaes Dothrak.  However, I understand why they would've wanted to not blow both of those wads in one episode and how the pacing of the season really wouldn't allow it.  

About Jaime as Warden of the East, it's possible it was sloppy writing on GRRM's part or not having certain things figured out yet.  Whatever the case, Jaime as Warden of the East quickly disappears in that book and is never discussed again.  I'm not sure why it was brought up in the first place.

[Raachel2008]

8 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I think that's a pretty important detail. She isn't going to fight her battles at sea, for the most part. they are transport and support - fighting only other naval forces backed up by dragons. Her troops (Unsullied, Dothraki) are best utilized on land, not to mention the Dornish and Tyrell forces. They absolutely need a base of operations and time for Targ loyalists to gather to her. My prediction is an invasion south of King's Landing, with a march up the coast. Hopefully to persuade other houses to back her through shock and awe, and conquering if necessary

I meant like a full plot and important stuff happening there, but  it makes sense, and with the Baraethons gone there is no one there to fight her. I thought she would go to the Iron Islands first, but I guess it is stupid securing Yara and Theon's rule there when it will cost her too many ships and men. They can always take Pyke later.

4 hours ago, Misplaced said:

 Jon is a greater threat to her rule than any Lannister: Jon is the real deal, probably a dragon rider to boot and battle-tested (hmm, sorta battle-failed also, but in any case).  IF he is trueborn, then a marriage between them doesn't cement HER rule, it cements HIS. Even if he's Rhaegar's bastard, given the world view, a marriage puts him on the Iron Throne

But for that to happen not only it has to be known Jon is a Targaryen but it has to be proved. The only people still alive who know he is Lyanna and Rhaegar's child are Howland Reed and Bran, right? Jon doesn't look like a Tagaryen and Ned Stark spent the last, what, 15/20 years of his life saying he was his bastard. That absolute certainty Jon is a Stark through his father is what made Manderly, Mormont and the others crown him as King in the North. I assume the show could come up with a letter Rhaegar sent to Aemon talking about Jon and being married to Lyanna and that letter is somehow found by Sam in the Citadel, but it is still a piece of paper and it means nothing if people don't believe or dismiss it.

I've always thought, since the very first time I realized R + L = J, that (if) Jon's heritage would be explicited by something totally obvious like walking through Viserion's flames or riding Dracarys - that would drive Dany crazy, her fave baby chosing daddy. 

And even if it is proven to the world that Jon is a Targaryen... His mere existence is a threat to Dany, but does Jon wants to claim the throne or there are people pushing/forcing him to claim it? I see no indication Jon ever wanted to rule Winterfell or the North, never mind Westeros (which menas nothing see Jon becoming KITN). Also, who would join him trying to get the throne from Dany? Dorne, Tyrell and part of the Greyjoys are with her, the Lannisters are a dying breed unless Tyrion starts making babies (I suppose there are some cousins out there), Baratheons are gone, the North doesn't have an army strong enough to face Dany even with the Valle and would never side with the Freys, Lannister or Euron Greyjoy agaisnt anyone anyway. On top of all that the Wall is going to fall and the White Walkers are coming.

I honestly don't think Jon will ever sit on the Iron Throne, but then I don't think there will be much of an Iron Throne after the White Walkers. I think all those people will fight together one way or another against the While Walkers, and when they are defeated, if they are defeated, we'll have independent kingdoms again. Dany rules her part of Westeros, Greyjoys theirs, Tyrion gets Castle Rock, Sansa gets the North and  Jon dies or once it is all done we see him walking beyond what is left of the Wall. Unless of course they want Dany/Jon as end game - we know they will milk those two together in any capacity for what is worth, be it as enemies, allies, lovers, or, gasp, family.

 

3 hours ago, snowblossom2 said:

My concern is that Bran knows that the NK's mark allowed the NK to get through/break the magic of the 3ER's hideout. Shouldn't he at least wonder if he'll break the Wall's magic?

What if he didn't put 2+2 togehter, but it wouldn't surprise me if Bran crosses the Wall because he needs to save/help/protect Meera. Maybe they just need food, how they are eating in the middle of all that ice/snow after all?

Edited June 28, 2016 by Raachel2008