S06.E06: Blood Of My Blood

[Maximum Taco]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

And if you compare her to Arya who's picking up FM skills without having to go through any loss whatsoever, (hell, if she doesn't take down the whole organization by the end of this season, I'd be shocked) and the amount of loss/ earning she's done has been nill then Dany's success would look earned. Different circumstances warrant  different successes and costs.

I actually think Dany would be compelling as a villain. You  have someone trying to do something right, but they can't because they're going about it the wrong way or they're not the right person for that job. The only other villain on this show that's even close to such a description was early season Theon. Being a villain isn't a negative thing. Especially not on this show.

Arya lost her wolf, father, family, friends, sight and sense of self. That's no loss whatsoever?

[ihartcoffee]

14 hours ago, Unknown poster said:

And how did she know he was hanging around? And why weren't the Dothraki and especially their mounts just a bit more surprised at the appearance of a gigantic, recently extinct beast? 

I  could feel the acting in that scene,  it didn't go off well imo. 

[benteen]

3 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Arya lost her wolf, father, family, friends, sight and sense of self. That's no loss whatsoever?

Seriously, Arya has lost almost everything.  Killing people from her list and surviving aren’t epic victories.

While I do feel somewhat sorry for Viserys, on the run from age 8 and the "last hope of a dynasty" he still treated his sister as little more than property.  Dany did lose a lot, particularly early on before her successes.

Edited May 30, 2016 by benteen

[Bizabra]

15 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Fuck yes, (kind of White Walkered?) Benjen! Loved it!

Kind of annoyed that Arya's decision to turn her back on Lady Crane seemed to hinge on her realization that her revenge was more important to her.

The Tarly women costumes were...interesting. Hannah Murray looked beautiful, though.

You can tell there is a new costumer designer at work. I thought that these costumes were very off-the-rack home sewn Simplicity "historical" patterns. Ugh.

[Eyes High]

Just now, Bizabra said:

You can tell there is a new costumer designer at work. I thought that these costumes were very off-the-rack home sewn Simplicity "historical" patterns. Ugh.

Yes! That was my exact impression! 

The other new costumes are strange, too (Missandei's palazzo pants, Grey Worm's studded tunic, etc.). Come back, Michele Clapton!

[Sakura12]

All the characters have lost things. We can't really compare their losses, since they happened under different circumstances. For me it's not about who lost the most, it's about what they do after those losses. Who uses that to become stronger, better. They are all doing that. They've all had people helping them and guiding them. 

The Starks have a better family line and that makes them easier to root for. 

[Oscirus]

8 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

1. 3 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Arya lost her wolf, father, family, friends, sight and sense of self. That's no loss whatsoever?

I stand corrected. She lost her family which might I remind you, every single main protagonist on the show has lost.

 She lost her friends she met on the road and her wolf is still out there waiting to meet back up with her since it's one of the only two live ones left.  And sense of self, once again, who hasn't?  So yea compared to everybody else her losses have been minimal.

Wasn't the point. The point was that different characters go through different levels of losses and successes and that  it's impossible to say whether or not successes are earned based on the experiences of other characters.

[Alapaki]

I can't recall, did the books or show explain how Coldhands (whoever he is) came to be Coldhands?  Because the return of Benjen seems to introduce an entirely new "lifeform" (for lack of a better word).  He's not a wright, apparently.  But he's not purely mortal anymore, I presume.  So is he a new type of undead good-guy?  I'm not sure how well thought through that move was.

Re: Arya, I don't think exposure to the play made her sympathetic to Cersei because Cersei was on the list for things she did before the Purple Wedding.  Rather, I think being reminded of Cersei's lust for vengeance, Arya was hit full-on with her own duty to finish off her list.  

But I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't take down the entire House of Undying with her on her way out the door.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Winter, War, And Difficult Conversations Are Coming On Game Of Thrones

But the Starks are really starting to get the band back together!

[TwistedandBored]

13 hours ago, Keely said:

She had their loyalty to a point but they also looked close to being out of the mountains. As a woman leading a large group of warrior men who haven't ever followed a woman before in their history, I'd call what she did less about dick-swinging and much more about making a point. Showing them Drogon and her command of him was a way to easily shore up any doubters and keep them in line.

Same thing with her speech. I know some people got a bad vibe from it but to me you have to consider who she is speaking to - something she's been shown as being very good at. Her speech to the Dothraki was much harder than it was to others. That doesn't necessarily mean she's going bad, mad or evil. It's all about knowing your audience and playing to it. They are a hard, warring people. Any speech she gives should be adjusted accordingly. You don't give the same rousing to arms speech to the peasantry of King's Landing as you do for the men of the Night's Watch and so it goes.

 

This soo much. It was a speech fit for the Dothraki people. 

[Tikichick]

Did Jaqen say earlier that he was dispensing mercy to the people at the fountain?

[Raachel2008]

58 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

Yara and Theon don't have 1000 ships though.

You are right, they don't, and I forgot to add Euron and his soon to be fleet, but my point is that there are a 1000 ships coming her way one way or another, be it the 1000 ships Euron wants to build or the combined force of his ships and Yara's and Theon's plus whatever the people at Meeren can build. My point remains the same: Daario saying "you need a 1000 ship" was bad writing that you know GGRM would never write.

[Maximum Taco]

37 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I stand corrected. She lost her family which might I remind you, every single main protagonist on the show has lost.

 She lost her friends she met on the road and her wolf is still out there waiting to meet back up with her since it's one of the only two live ones left.  And sense of self, once again, who hasn't?  So yea compared to everybody else her losses have been minimal.

Wasn't the point. The point was that different characters go through different levels of losses and successes and that  it's impossible to say whether or not successes are earned based on the experiences of other characters.

Most people haven't lose their sense of self. Least of all Dany, from Season 1, when she found her identity, onward she's been "Daenerys I Stormborn, Mother of Dragons, the Unburnt, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea etc." when has she ever not believed that is who she is?

Sansa, in the show atleast, has never really questioned her Stark-iness.

Tyrion has been adamant that he is a Lannister, "I am your son, I have always been your son"

I think it's the opposite of what you are trying to say. Everyone on the show has very strong convictions about their own identity, except of course characters who are still searching for theirs (e.g. Tommen, Bran)

Who on the show has tried to abandon their previous identity and sink into the nothingness of no one or someone else? Only Arya and Theon.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[MrWhyt]

1 minute ago, Raachel2008 said:

You are right, they don't, and I forgot to add Euron and his soon to be fleet, but my point is that there are a 1000 ships coming her way one way or another, be it the 1000 ships Euron wants to build or the combined force of his ships and Yara's and Theon's plus whatever the people at Meeren can build. My point remains the same: Daario saying "you need a 1000 ship" was bad writing that you know GGRM would never write.

A: He said she would need at least 1000 ships

2: GRRM isn't some untouchable demigod of writing, I don't see that as something he wouldn't write.

[patchwork]

For me it seemed to be a rallying speech for the sake of Dany giving a rallying speech, like the writers wanted to add some excitement to the episode and chose a quick and easy way to do it. 

I wouldn't mind if she did become an antagonist, she has good intentions and the dragons are probably exactly what is needed to kill White Walker on mass but she is clueless when it comes to Westeros and I just can't imagine her fitting in well with the characters there. 

You can't really compare tragedies and decide who's pain wins but things have been going Dany's way since the end of season one. Sure she's losing Slavers Bay but it's never really felt important to her story anyway. If she's decided to move on then she can easily re-take those cities and leave the rest in the hands of Messiandre and Grey Worm with the help of the Red Priests. 

[WearyTraveler]

On ‎30‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 6:16 PM, Alapaki said:

I can't recall, did the books or show explain how Coldhands (whoever he is) came to be Coldhands?  Because the return of Benjen seems to introduce an entirely new "lifeform" (for lack of a better word).  He's not a wright, apparently.  But he's not purely mortal anymore, I presume.  So is he a new type of undead good-guy?  I'm not sure how well thought through that move was.

Re: Arya, I don't think exposure to the play made her sympathetic to Cersei because Cersei was on the list for things she did before the Purple Wedding.  Rather, I think being reminded of Cersei's lust for vengeance, Arya was hit full-on with her own duty to finish off her list.  

But I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't take down the entire House of Undying with her on her way out the door.

Arya is not in the House of the Undying, she's in the House of Black and White.  The House of the Undying was the place where Dany had her visions in Qarth.

Edited June 2, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[Gertrude]

40 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

She lost her friends she met on the road and her wolf is still out there waiting to meet back up with her since it's one of the only two live ones left.  And sense of self, once again, who hasn't?  So yea compared to everybody else her losses have been minimal.

I couldn't disagree more. To me, Arya is one of the characters that has lost the most. The whole reason she went to the Faceless Men in the first place was that she had nothing and nowhere else to go. Nothing. Every small shred of hope in her has been dashed. I know this wasn't the main point you were trying to make, but Arya's story is heartbreaking. Maybe I'm reading too much book stuff into it, but it's heartbreaking, mainly because we watch as it happens to her. This little kid is broken down. Just because she's resilient and tough doesn't mean she isn't fundamentally broken and alone.

[Raachel2008]

8 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

A: He said she would need at least 1000 ships

2: GRRM isn't some untouchable demigod of writing, I don't see that as something he wouldn't write.

"At least 1000" means that it can be done with a 1000 ships, which is my point. The of course there are flaws in the books, but there was no subtleness at all in the way those "at least 1000 ships" was placed in the episode, and right after the last one - there wasn't even a two episodes jumps. But that is just me.

[Alapaki]

18 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

Arya is not in the House of the Undying, she's in the House of Black and White.  The House of the Undying was the place were Dany had her visions in Qarth.

Correct.  Fingers thinking faster than my brain.  But I still wouldn't be surprised if we get more than Arya killing the Waif and scurrying back to Westeros.

Come to think of it, just like Dany, Arya needs a way back.  Of course she could hire herself on a merchant ship.  But I wonder if Theon and Yara become the means to get Arya back to Westeros instead of Dany?

[Happy Harpy]

I have lots and lots of respect for GRRM. But as far as dialogues go, for every TV show "bad pussy", there is a book "fat pink mast"...and same goes for plotlines.

Of course the TV show is condensed, characters are merged, there are shortcuts etc. But for example, the TV show didn't invent that Dany's path was a loop leading her back to the Dothraki and takes what seems like centuries to arrive to Westeros (which IIRC was supposed to happen originally in ADWD). The show didn't invent "hodor = hold the door" and as others said upthread, it was ridiculed by book purists before GRRM confirmed it was his idea.

I know how it feels to be a purist (the last Poirot abomination and parts of the last Marple series change me into a more vicious creature than a starved pitpull, foam at the mouth included) but criticizing beforehand is imo a little risky bet.

[Lemuria]

15 hours ago, mac123x said:

  Game of Thrones: A Painstaking Breakdown of Everything Bran Learned in His Vision

Having looked at the link, I had a question:  when they show us the Wildfire "explosion," at the point where it fills the screen, does that look like a screaming face in the fire?

 

I didn't find Dany's speech this ep to be "mad."  While it's true that we, the audience, has heard it before, I could see the point here.  In the cold light of day, the Dothraki were probably beginning to wonder what the heck they were doing following a woman.  I think this was designed to cement her control over them.  And to give them their first glimpse of a real dragon, which was very impressive (and I have to give all props to the Dothraki for their horse-training skills.  Those horses took the arrival of a dragon bigger than a Greyhound bus really, really well!).

It was last week that I thought I caught a glimpse of the madness.  It was in her smile and her eyes as she watched the Khals burn.  More than a little scary, IMHO.

 

There was a post that suggested that GRRM was not interested in his story anymore, and provided a history of the writing of the books that was very interesting (the poster is clearly much more knowledgeable about GRRM and the books than I am).  In addition to everything in that post, I think there's another factor.  It seems to me that GRRM, like Robert Jordan, fell more in love with his world than with his story.  No detail was too small to wax rhapsodic about, no spot on the map too unimportant to the main story line--you know, the Great Enemy waking up?  Winter coming?--or too uninteresting to name and give a history to and to populate with characters the readers would be expected to follow.  It ended up with a lot marking time from a story perspective.

Tolkien turns out to be a better story teller, IMO, simply because he never forgot that the story was everything.  There were 14 years of bones built into the LOTR and the world of Middle Earth but he never gave you more than a glimpse of them, enough to whet the appetite but not to get in the way of the narrative, which kept driving forward.  If you wanted more, there was the Appendix at the end of "The Return of the King," and all the secondary books that have come out, and the Atlas and so on.  But if what you were interested in was the story and the characters that drove that story, then the primary three books gave you what you wanted.  JMO.  MV, of course.

[WearyTraveler]

11 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

Correct.  Fingers thinking faster than my brain.  But I still wouldn't be surprised if we get more than Arya killing the Waif and scurrying back to Westeros.

Come to think of it, just like Dany, Arya needs a way back.  Of course she could hire herself on a merchant ship.  But I wonder if Theon and Yara become the means to get Arya back to Westeros instead of Dany?

I think Yara and Theon are going to warn Dany about Euron, so she'll be ready to fry him and take his thousand ships.

Arya might actually join the theatre troop, which might be headed to Westeros

[Oscirus]

37 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Most people haven't lose their sense of self. Least of all Dany, from Season 1, when she found her identity, onward she's been "Daenerys I Stormborn, Mother of Dragons, the Unburnt, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea etc." when has she ever not believed that is who she is?

Sansa, in the show atleast, has never really questioned her Stark-iness.

Tyrion has been adamant that he is a Lannister, "I am your son, I have always been your son"

I think it's the opposite of what you are trying to say. Everyone on the show has very strong convictions about their own identity, except of course characters who are still searching for theirs (e.g. Tommen, Bran)

Who on the show has tried to abandon their previous identity and sink into the nothingness of no one or someone else? Only Arya and Theon.

As you just posted, Dany didn't even have a sense of self to lose, she had to find hers and she had to do so while being married to a dothraki barbarian.

Sansa at the very least has been on the verge of losing her since her father died. Hell, she escaped  last season because she was on the verge of being raped into nothingness.

Tyrion has been at such conflict with his true self that he's tried to drink himself to death last season  and is currently working with his family's sworn enemy because he's desperately trying to find something worth living for and I'm not even going to go into his problems with self pre show.

Arya doesn't  have the market cornered on conflict with self. The only difference is that her path hasn't been as hard as the rest.

[ParadoxLost]

11 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

I think Yara and Theon are going to warn Dany about Euron, so she'll be ready to fry him and take his thousand ships.

I think they are more likely to start aligning factions with the final two armies.  I think Yara and Theon will work their way towards aligning with Jon. 

There isn't anything meaningful to Dany that Yara and Theon could tell Dany about Euron that Tyrion couldn't.  Dany isn't going to care about their family squabbles and Euron wanting to use Dany to gain power isn't going to be a surprise.

[Maximum Taco]

6 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

As you just posted, Dany didn't even have a sense of self to lose, she had to find hers and she had to do so while being married to a dothraki barbarian.

Sansa at the very least has been on the verge of losing her since her father died. Hell, she escaped  last season because she was on the verge of being raped into nothingness.

Tyrion has been at such conflict with his true self that he's tried to drink himself to death last season  and is currently working with his family's sworn enemy because he's desperately trying to find something worth living for and I'm not even going to go into his problems with self pre show.

Arya doesn't  have the market cornered on conflict with self. The only difference is that her path hasn't been as hard as the rest.

True lots of people come close, that's why it's called hardship. The strength of their convictions allowed them to go through while holding onto themselves. 

Nobody's lost themselves like Arya and Theon though. Questioning yourself is not the same thing as losing yourself IMO.

[Conan Troutman]

3 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

See, I don't think Dany is crazy at all. I doubt anyone, man or woman, wouldn't be a little drunk with power at this point in the game, especially when her successes seem to be god(s) directed. It was why Stannis had Mellisandre at his left hand: she was getting the victories for him through her fire god. You be up against armies of literal millions, but if God himself is apparently on your side, they can be easily defeated.

I don't think she's crazy, either. What I meant by that is that you can see something in her eyes that's quite distinctly Targaryen, but I think she'll be able to control it and fight it, like other Targaryens before her. But that part may become an issue going forward: This is probably something she has to actively work on, remind herself of and act accordingly. That's why we got Selmy talking to her about the Mad King. There's a real possibility that if she doesn't resist the temptation, she could get drowned in the madness and this might be why we're constantly reminded about it and it could be a big plot point going forward. So I can see her being set up to be the villain, but I can also see that she needs to make a big decision (like fight Jon for the Iron Throne or abandon that goal to unite against the WWs) and ultimately succeeds in avoiding these pitfalls of power. But that story will only be told once she gets to Westeros, which is about damn time. 

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

I don't believe for a second Margaery has been converted, either, though it could be an interesting twist if she did. But her main goal is saving Loras and converting is a way to try to spare him from whatever the High Sparrow has planned - it is an exchange really, one I'm pretty sure the HS is full aware. His smugness at the scene with Jamie was on my top ten "hate this fucker, kill him now" scenes. Tommen,  on the other hand, totally bought the HS's ideas.

I was looking for some tells that Margaery's lying in her scene with Tommen, but I didn't get any. You'd think the show would give us some clues if she really were playing the HS. Yeah, she didn't appear convinced last time we saw her, but I think that was the show telling us the steps of her conversion, rather than giving is only the result. There's another thing: By actively helping to get Tommen converted, she now has effectively removed anyone's power to help her (well, she'll be fine now) and more importantly, Loras, out of this situation. That would've been a rather stupid con. 

1 hour ago, Alapaki said:

I can't recall, did the books or show explain how Coldhands (whoever he is) came to be Coldhands?  Because the return of Benjen seems to introduce an entirely new "lifeform" (for lack of a better word).  He's not a wright, apparently.  But he's not purely mortal anymore, I presume.  So is he a new type of undead good-guy?  I'm not sure how well thought through that move was.

Re: Arya, I don't think exposure to the play made her sympathetic to Cersei because Cersei was on the list for things she did before the Purple Wedding.  Rather, I think being reminded of Cersei's lust for vengeance, Arya was hit full-on with her own duty to finish off her list.  

I don't think Coldhands was ever fully explained. I guess the explanation we got from Benjen could also be the explanation for Coldhands in the books. I'm more curios about what that means for book!Benjen, though. Or maybe that was Benjen straight from the books and D&D left out Coldhands because he would be too similar. 

I don't think that necessarily makes her sympathetic to Cersei. But it might give her a new perspective on things and may make her re-think who needs to be on her list and who doesn't. She's crossed the Hound off of it already, so maybe she reevaluates Cersei's place there, too. And while Cersei certainly committed her fair share of awful acts, how many were against the Starks? Throwing Bran out the window was Jamie's idea (not that she disagreed, but still). Lady's death is on her conscience, yeah, but maybe here the play comes in. Other than that? She wasn't the one to have Ned executed, she never wanted the war with the Starks. She was awful to Sansa, but never had her harmed physically. She didn't play a part in the red wedding, either. Cersei needs to die, but her life isn't Arya's to take. 

 

18 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

"At least 1000" means that it can be done with a 1000 ships, which is my point. The of course there are flaws in the books, but there was no subtleness at all in the way those "at least 1000 ships" was placed in the episode, and right after the last one - there wasn't even a two episodes jumps. But that is just me.

It was a bit clunky, I give you that. But it was also short and effective. I really don't need ten minutes of Meereenese discussion about ships, please and thank you. 

[Oscirus]

2 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

True lots of people come close, that's why it's called hardship. The strength of their convictions allowed them to go through while holding onto themselves. 

Nobody's lost themselves like Arya and Theon though. Questioning yourself is not the same thing as losing yourself IMO.

I'll give you Theon , but has Arya ever truly lost herself? She's tried but there's never been a point that she's ever been anybody other then Arya.

[Maximum Taco]

9 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I'll give you Theon , but has Arya ever truly lost herself? She's tried but there's never been a point that she's ever been anybody other then Arya.

She's gotten to the point where she no longer wants to be herself. I would argue that's even worse then Theon.

On some fundamental level I think "Reek" always wanted to be Theon, Sansa has always wanted to be Sansa, Dany has always wanted to be Dany. Jon has always wanted to be Jon (he just wants to be Jon Stark).

Arya's the only person who doesn't want to be herself. To get to that point I think you've had to lose yourself.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Oscirus]

I would argue that Tyrion  doesn't want to be Tyrion especially between post season 4 up until the time he meets Dany.  But I get your point. Well stated.

[AuntieMame]

5 hours ago, sumiregusa said:

Um hell yes? I couldn't have said it any better. This is my exact level of disgust with the writing on this show. I'll be the crank with you.

I wrote a long post a couple of episodes ago on the book talk episode thread saying that I saw writers pretty much shitting their pants in panic. This BTW includes GRRM. I think they have the endings for all of the characters but very little idea of how to get from here to there. The fact that they're adapting a complex series and now adapting material that doesn't yet exist is making things even more difficult. For example, Sansa's lie of omission to Jon makes no sense and feels forced to set up some later shocking plot point. For that matter, Sansa meeting LF alone except for Brienne made no sense. For all Sansa knew, Littlefinger could have been waiting there with twenty armed men to return her to Ramsay. Littlefinger sold her to Ramsay in the first place and it could still suit his purposes. This is just a tiny example. If we are forced to endure some version of evil!Sansa I'm going to be pissed, because almost by accident Sansa has the most interesting character arc and development in the entire series. 

4 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

Pretty much.
 

 

The other problem is despite all the advantages that Dany has handed to her, she has the least progression towards her goal. Jon and Sansa just established their goal of trying to retake Winterfell, and they are already further along in their goal that Dany is of her goal of claiming the Iron Throne, which she has been working towards for 5+ seasons. 

Yes, yes and yes. Dany too has character development or lack thereof that just doesn't always make a lot of sense, especially given the harsh consequences other people have had to endure in this world for much smaller mistakes. The speech to the Dothraki and the dragon felt like a manipulation on her part. And an unnecessary one as Dany kind of had them at hello. And I'm not certain that Dany is against rapine and pillage anymore as long as it's out of her eye line. Great introduction to a land you want to rule lady. And I still have trouble swallowing the Unsullied on so many levels.

So, add me to the curmudgeon list. It is mostly that I'm disappointed. The series had so, so much potential. I realize that bringing it in for a landing isn't easy, but I did have high hopes that have been mostly dashed. At least we're getting an ending which is something to be grateful for.

[Maximum Taco]

15 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I would argue that Tyrion  doesn't want to be Tyrion especially between post season 4 up until the time he meets Dany.  But I get your point. Well stated.

I don't know. I think Tyrion generally likes himself a lot, at least his personality. He might not have wanted to be "Tyrion Lannister, wanted Kingslayer" but he didn't want to change his identity (what makes him Tyrion.) He just wants to be treated better, or to not be a dwarf.

This is similar to Jon, he likes who he is, he just wants to not be a bastard.

This is different from Arya who was actively trying to divest herself from her name, desires, morality and dreams. And was willing to live on the street as a filthy blind beggar to do it.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Misplaced]

18 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

Holy hell!! Benjen Stark!!! My god, though, what is he?? A man? A wight? Both? 

 

A Wan?  A Might?  

I too felt much of the episode was exposition, but yay! Benjen!  (And why was Bran drinking rabbit blood?  Protein Shake of the North?)

Dany - still yawn.  Tiny bit of non-yawn because she is starting to creep me out.  We start with the Mad King screaming "burn them all!" in Bran's vision at the beginning of the episode and end Dany threatening to destroy Westeros on the back of a fire-breathing dragon.  Hmm...

I loved Essie Davis / Lady Crane.  Hoping Now-Arya-who-is-not-A-Girl goes with the troupe (after some righteous whaling on the Waif, of course).  

Edited to add:  in response to some asking upthread about whether Arya was certain the younger female actor paid for the assassination of Lady Crane -- Arya saw Younger Woman lip-synching along with Lady Crane during her not!Joffrey's-death speech, which seems to have confirmed her initial impression - not entirely shot down by Jaquen - that Younger Woman paid for the deed. All in all, I found Arya's scenes this week pretty interesting.  Hope it continues.  

Edited May 30, 2016 by Misplaced

[Ambrosefolly]

2 hours ago, Nanrad said:

Terrible childhoods are relative, but that doesn't make hers any less terrible. Although Viserys got shit genetics, he didn't know that until he was killed. Before then, he didn't mind being abusive/treating his sister like shit. They both were hunted, but he didn't give a damn about Dany if it wasn't furthering his own agenda. 

Because Viserys was suffering the effects of being inbred, like his daddy beforehand. When Dany finally gave herself permission, she dispatched her brother to become the queen.

[TaurusRose]

3 hours ago, Constantinople said:

If I understand correctly, Dany has had everything handed to her because dragons, but Jon being raised from the dead is an example of him pulling himself up by his own bootstraps?

LOL !

[benteen]

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I stand corrected. She lost her family which might I remind you, every single main protagonist on the show has lost.

 She lost her friends she met on the road and her wolf is still out there waiting to meet back up with her since it's one of the only two live ones left.  And sense of self, once again, who hasn't?  So yea compared to everybody else her losses have been minimal.

Wasn't the point. The point was that different characters go through different levels of losses and successes and that  it's impossible to say whether or not successes are earned based on the experiences of other characters.

Yes, Arya only suffered insignificant losses like her parents and her brother while still a child.  She lost her friends, her own, her sense of identity…yeah, those really aren’t big losses.  All the while she’s replacing those losses by drowning herself in blood with her revenge.

Unless she gets a wake-up call, Arya is going to end up just like Lady Stoneheart.  Lady Stoneheart is the ghost of Arya future is she keeps walking down her dark path.

I just can’t take the comments that Arya hasn’t lost much seriously at all.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Alapaki said:

Correct.  Fingers thinking faster than my brain.  But I still wouldn't be surprised if we get more than Arya killing the Waif and scurrying back to Westeros.

Come to think of it, just like Dany, Arya needs a way back.  Of course she could hire herself on a merchant ship.  But I wonder if Theon and Yara become the means to get Arya back to Westeros instead of Dany?

Take too long, she has to get back somewhat quickly if she's to

learn about Sansa at Winterfell per leaks

and have a part of bring down her family's killers.

[mac123x]

55 minutes ago, Conan Troutman said:

It was a bit clunky, I give you that. But it was also short and effective. I really don't need ten minutes of Meereenese discussion about ships, please and thank you. 

The thing that bugged me about the 1000 ships lines (both from Euron and Daario) is that having 1000 ships does no good if you don't have the crews for them.  Sailing is a skill, not something you can just get a bunch of untrained people to do.  Sure, manning the oars on a galley doesn't take a lot of training, but operating sails does.  

 

I know it's a silly nit-pick, but those kinds of errors are immersion breaking.  

[Raachel2008]

3 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

IAll of that said, the speech at the end of this episode got a "meh" from me. There's gratuitous nudity, gratuitous violence, and now, gratuitous power displays.

What really drives me insane is the gratuitous WORSHIPPING. I feel like it happens all the time, and that the only one time it trully worked was when the Meereen former slaves called her "mhysa" and lifted her at the end of season 3. Thee Dothraki blowing to her twice in two episodes? I know the dragons are impressive, as well as walking into the fire, but how comes no one tries to run or doubt her and her plans? How come no one tells her that as soon the Dothraki set foot in King's Landing they will rape and kill like they have always done? How come she herself doesn't think it? Does she really think Missandei, just to name the woman the closest to her, is safe around the Dothraki? I so want the show to adress it, but I don't think it will.

I don't believe Danaerys is blood thirsthy or going nuts a la Mad King or any of that. I think she is enamored of her own power and the idea that she is rightful heir to the Iron Throne, that that spiky throne is her divine right,  without even thiking how she is going to achieve it - not the conquering, but the ruling. Somehow, as bad as the Lannisters are and as crazy as the HS is, I don't see the peple of King's Landing or the whole Westeros welcoming the last alive Targaryen with open arms.

Except Danaerys is not the last one - for me at least, since I do believe Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. Waiting patiently for the moment she learns that there is another Targaryen out there, and it is a man - does it move her to "second in line" to the throne behind Jon or it doesn't matter because he is a bastard? I'm asking because I can totally see Jon and Sansa getting Winterfell back, Jon becoming King of the North and having enough support to become a viable option to the Iron Throne, assuming a) people will accept a Targaryen sitting there, b) he can rule.

Comparing losses and such, Danaerys x Sansa x Arya x Tyrion x the unamed soldier is just pointless. They have all suffered. The problem with Danaerys is not how much she has suffered or not. It is the fact that after six seasons her whole plot is too isolated from whatever is happening at Westeros. I though tyat Tyrion and Varys would be that much needed connection, but nope. Maybe Yara and Theon will be the ones. LE SIGH.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Raachel2008

[vibeology]

2 hours ago, Bizabra said:

You can tell there is a new costumer designer at work. I thought that these costumes were very off-the-rack home sewn Simplicity "historical" patterns. Ugh.

In world, my excuse is that the Tarly women just aren't very good at clothing. It's a skill, like any other, and if Mama Tarly isn't very strong at it, she won't be able to teach her daughter either and she doesn't really notice that the women who work for her are average at best. When you compare how they were dressed to Sansa's new outfit it's clear that skill level matters.

2 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

You are right, they don't, and I forgot to add Euron and his soon to be fleet, but my point is that there are a 1000 ships coming her way one way or another, be it the 1000 ships Euron wants to build or the combined force of his ships and Yara's and Theon's plus whatever the people at Meeren can build. My point remains the same: Daario saying "you need a 1000 ship" was bad writing that you know GGRM would never write.

Can we talk about 1000 ships? Because that number seems wrong to me. Dany has the Unsullied. She bought 8000 Unsullied but she's lost many of them in Mereen though it's hard to say how many exactly. She has Daario's men, but I assume that company is small, 200 or so. We saw thousands of Dothraki bow to her but there was maybe 20 following her when she went off and found Drogon. That being said, I assume we weren't supposed to notice those sparse numbers and she has more. There's no reason to bring the women and children over in the first wave, so only the men and their horses have to travel. Let's say 20,000 men and probably the same number of horses (though I'd think they'd probably bring more since they both ride and eat horses.) Plus she has the freed slaves who follow her (I'm going to put that number at 200 again, assuming we're not bringing the women and children along for the battle) and the original group of people who travelled through the Red Waste with her (probably only 100 or so left of them.) So she's got to transport roughly 28,500 men and (let's say) 20,000 horses. Assuming that she can put many of her freed men, Unsullied and Second Sons to work on the ships so she doesn't need as large a crew she doesn't need anywhere near 1000 ships. That's 29 people and 20 horses a ship. Yara and Theon will be fine. A thousand ships is one of those things that sounds great, but it's a nice estimate more than anything else. 102 passengers and crew came over on the Mayflower. Assuming the Ironborn ships can hold as many and half are their own crew, you could get all of Dany's people on 280 ships. The horses will need more room so if you add another 500 ships just for horses (and I think that's high but I've never transported a horse on a boat so I'm going to be cautious), supplies and other similar things, you still don't need 1000 ships.

Either Dany has way more than 30,000 people on her side or Daario is bad at estimating.

Edited May 30, 2016 by vibeology

[Maximum Taco]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

Maybe they'll pick up more on the way, the way Vic did.

Ugh, she is such a better character on the show.  In the books all she does is whimper and snivel for hundreds of pages.  I much prefer the feisty girl who sasses Randyll Tarly.

To be fair, in the books Jon separates her from her baby. I know no mother who would not be absolutely devastated in the same position.

[Oscirus]

5 minutes ago, benteen said:

Yes, Arya only suffered insignificant losses like her parents and her brother while still a child.  She lost her friends, her own, her sense of identity…yeah, those really aren’t big losses.  All the while she’s replacing those losses by drowning herself in blood with her revenge.

Unless she gets a wake-up call, Arya is going to end up just like Lady Stoneheart.  Lady Stoneheart is the ghost of Arya future is she keeps walking down her dark path.

I just can’t take the comments that Arya hasn’t lost much seriously at all.

So basically she's suffered family and friend losses like everybody else on the show? It's funny that Dany's suffering gets downplayed and people barely have anything to say,  but say something about poor Arya and everybody wants to jump to her defense.

[bmoore4026]

17 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

Holy hell!! Benjen Stark!!! My god, though, what is he?? A man? A wight? Both? Is it his Stark blood that kept him from dying immediately after getting stabbed by a WW? I'm so excited and so confused.

Wait, his name is Benjen?  Well, he'll have to change it now since Afleck is no longer with a Lopez or a Garner.

[vibeology]

5 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

To be fair, in the books Jon separates her from her baby. I know no mother who would not be absolutely devastated in the same position.

That's a huge difference and I absolutely get why Book Gilly was always so depressed and down. Not only was she separated from her child, she is forced to care for another child and knows that her child is still at the Wall because Melisandre and Stannis might just decide to burn the "royal baby." Her child could very easily die while she's off far away taking care of a different baby. I can't imagine a mother who wouldn't be totally destroyed by that situation.

[nksarmi]

When my SO finished the third book (I think), he turned to me and said, "Dany would make a great villain." People have been questioning her path on the show since the show had her feed a guy to her chained up dragons. On the show, there is definitely room to question if this woman would save Westerous or condemn it.

The question of motivation is also excellent. Dany spent a lot of time trying to end slavery in Slaver's Bay. I was bored by that story, but I admired it. But now she's leading a horde of rapists, murderers, and yes slavers to retake her city and go on to Westerous. So she is going to be the conquering warrior queen on a dragon with absolutely NO connection to Westerous when she comes? Oh and who will carry her to Westerous? Iron Born ships who have been raiding and pillaging for centuries? How does she plan to get the "little people" on her side? It's going to be their crops and homes her dragons burn to the ground. They are going to HATE her.
 Even if WE don't think she's a villain - Westerous is definitely going to see her that way.

Conversely, yes Jon has to convince people why he saved Wildlings but he also has Wildlings - who are not all slavers, rapists, or murders - who can speak up for themselves, promise that their people just want to be safe, and back Jon when he tells the people of the North (and then Southern lords) that the dead are walking. Jon asking people to believe in him while he unites them in a common cause is far easier to believe than the common people of Westerous viewing Dany with anything but fear and loathing.

And I think that's what set me off about that speech so much. As others have said, she could have just said "To Meereen!" and flew off on Drogon while they rode at full gallop behind her. Instead, she made me very, very scared for the little people of Westerous. She also made me feel like Jon is going to have to unite with Jamie and whoever else is alive when she shows up to control her damage.

[Lemuria]

18 hours ago, mac123x said:

Except Danaerys is not the last one - for me at least, since I do believe Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. Waiting patiently for the moment she learns that there is another Targaryen out there, and it is a man - does it move her to "second in line" to the throne behind Jon or it doesn't matter because he is a bastard? 

Assuming that R+L=J (and I prefer to!), he may not be a bastard.  Targaryens had been known to practice polygamy from time to time, so it's possible that Rhaegar (very, very) quietly married Lyanna.  If that's the case, then, as the heir of the oldest of the Targaryen offspring, he would also be the heir to the Iron Throne, possibly the most uncomfortable throne in the history of the universe.

 

Quote

All the while she’s replacing those losses by drowning herself in blood with her revenge.

The question is, when is it revenge and when is it justice?  Especially when you live in a world where the official "justice system" does not give a damn--or will do anything--about it?  

Edited May 30, 2016 by Lemuria

[nksarmi]

6 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

So basically she's suffered family and friend losses like everybody else on the show? It's funny that Dany's suffering gets downplayed and people barely have anything to say,  but say something about poor Arya and everybody wants to jump to her defense.

It's probably because while in the books, they aren't that far apart in age - visually the actresses who play the characters are VERY far apart. Dany might not be an adult, but the actress who plays her always has been. She's been portrayed as having sex, being married, commanding, etc...

On the other hand, the actress who plays Arya has been underage since the start (she might be 18 now?) - her character has always been portrayed as a little girl. She felt betrayed by her sister, watched her father be beheaded, lived as a commoner while also being hunted, went from place to place always knowing if she was discovered, she'd die (or worse), was taken/discovered by more than one adult man who wanted to ransom her, when she finally got to her mom/brother - she found them brutally murdered, when she finds her way to her aunt - she has also been murdered, and then her last protector dies. And all of this happened before Arya "flowered" so to speak.

There is just a difference when you perceive the tragedies as happening to an adult vs. a child. Also, while Arya wants revenge - she has also practically just been living to survive. Survival has been her sole motivation since the end of season one. Dany is long past survival being her reason for being. So yea, there is a HUGE difference in the characters. And even then - that doesn't mean that some people don't think Arya is also on the verge of losing her shit and becoming a psychopath. 

[Conan Troutman]

26 minutes ago, mac123x said:

The thing that bugged me about the 1000 ships lines (both from Euron and Daario) is that having 1000 ships does no good if you don't have the crews for them.  Sailing is a skill, not something you can just get a bunch of untrained people to do.  Sure, manning the oars on a galley doesn't take a lot of training, but operating sails does.  

 

I know it's a silly nit-pick, but those kinds of errors are immersion breaking.  

But there are trained people. Euron wouldn't plan on building that massive a fleet if he didn't have the men to do it (assuming he isn't a total moron). Yara and Theon may have a smaller fleet, but they still got it out of the harbor, which means they have enough men for that fleet, too. Even if they have to build more ships, they can still train people to do the jobs that don't require as much skill and use the more experienced Ironborn as officers. 

It's also called the Narrow Sea for a reason. You don't have to get them over in one swoop. It doesn't have to be like on D-Day, Dany can ship them over to her potential allies in Dorne (who probably have a couple of ships of their own) or wherever in smaller chunks and it won't take forever. I'd say even a hundred ships are still a good start. Then there are other places to get ships from. The Free Cities probably have tons of them for rent, maybe our pirate friend Salador San will make another appearance. 

Edited May 30, 2016 by Conan Troutman

[GrailKing]

10 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

So basically she's suffered family and friend losses like everybody else on the show? It's funny that Dany's suffering gets downplayed and people barely have anything to say,  but say something about poor Arya and everybody wants to jump to her defense.

Danni suffered losses, the loss of her husband and son are fresh in her mind, just as the words from the healer about her having future children. but Viseris and Rhegar and her mother etc she's so far removed from them emotionally it doesn't really figure into her equation, her father was deposed for being crazy / evil  she thinks or feels she's entitled to the throne because he sat it, nothing more.

She was told by Tyrion that she has no backing without the families she wants to eliminate, the Starks among them.

I'm pretty sure Tyrion was trying to get a point across about how their terrible fathers killed the Starks .

[WearyTraveler]

53 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Because Viserys was suffering the effects of being inbred, like his daddy beforehand. When Dany finally gave herself permission, she dispatched her brother to become the queen.

Dany didn't kill Viserys.  Drogo did that with the molten gold crown.  Dany tried to stop it both, in the books and on the show.

[GrailKing]

14 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

It's probably because while in the books, they aren't that far apart in age - visually the actresses who play the characters are VERY far apart. Dany might not be an adult, but the actress who plays her always has been. She's been portrayed as having sex, being married, commanding, etc...

On the other hand, the actress who plays Arya has been underage since the start (she might be 18 now?) - her character has always been portrayed as a little girl. She felt betrayed by her sister, watched her father be beheaded, lived as a commoner while also being hunted, went from place to place always knowing if she was discovered, she'd die (or worse), was taken/discovered by more than one adult man who wanted to ransom her, when she finally got to her mom/brother - she found them brutally murdered, when she finds her way to her aunt - she has also been murdered, and then her last protector dies. And all of this happened before Arya "flowered" so to speak.

There is just a difference when you perceive the tragedies as happening to an adult vs. a child. Also, while Arya wants revenge - she has also practically just been living to survive. Survival has been her sole motivation since the end of season one. Dany is long past survival being her reason for being. So yea, there is a HUGE difference in the characters. And even then - that doesn't mean that some people don't think Arya is also on the verge of losing her shit and becoming a psychopath. 

Just a bit nitpicky, she felt Sansa betrayed her but Ned had to explain it to her, where she then turned it on dad with why would you let her marry a person like that

in book Sansa did tell Ned the truth, but when brought before the King claimed amnesia.

And Arya never saw her father beheaded, Sansa did, Yorem took her away to get her out of KL.