S06.E05: The Door

[J----av]

15 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I think that Arya is paying too high a price to learn the skills to be an assassin. Killing people for a bunch of religious fanatics will never end well. What if she is sent to kill Jon and/or Sansa. I don't see Jaquen letting her leave to go off to kill her enemies after she has learnt her craft. IMO, Arya is getting warning after warning that she should get out of that murdering cult before it is too late and I hope she does. She will never be "nobody." She will always be Arya Stark who has enemies to defeat.

 

 You can't be sent to kill people that you know or knew before becoming a FM so ARya will never be sent to kill Sansa or Jon (and Sansa would be to expensive for anyone to kill anyway and i doubt they would send a rookie like Arya to kill a big target like Sansa or Jon)

 

  Also i have no doubt that Arya will never be no one. Jaquen wont let her go off killing her own people, but eventual she will somehow leave on her own against the FMs wishes to pursue her list.

[SFoster21]

42 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Oh gods. Personally, I hope there's no damn horn. TV-Euron is at least bit more realistic than the cartoon pirate of the books (I'm NOT a fan of the Iron Born characters or culture). If he is going to offer a fleet in return for marriage to the Queen, then he gets the dragons as a dowry, or may think he does anyway.  I don't want the damn pirate to 'pay the iron price' for the dragons. Dragons are not slaves. Let's keep it that way. 

Maybe I'll get lucky and Euron will get the Quentyn Martell arc.

The horn: correct me, please, but didn't blowing the horn kill the blower?

Wasn't there something about blowing the horn to destroy the Wall?

Or the dragons in the stone at Dragonstone(?) or Stannis' old haunt were supposed to come alive?

Wasn't there a second horn up North?. the whole horn thing is tres! confusing to me.

[QuantumMechanic]

Two horns, I believe.  Dragonbinder, which can control dragons, and the Horn of Joramun (aka Horn of Winter), which supposedly can bring down the Wall.

[Hecate7]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

According to the writers and the actor, he genuinely didn't know.

His plan is still really stupid, mind you.

Wow, that's a bad choice, but the actor's stuck with it. Damn. My heart goes out to him.

[SFoster21]

19 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

Wow, that's a bad choice, but the actor's stuck with it. Damn. My heart goes out to him.

It is awfully confusing.

I mean, he tells the Vale lords that Sansa needs to be rescued, right?

The LF stuff is getting pretty convoluted.

[Unknown poster]

5 hours ago, mrspidey said:

Seriously guys...Jorah will get cured by having a red priest do to his arm what Moqorro does to Victarion's arm in the books. This would make Jorah the hand of fire, both literally and figuratively. 

What do you think?

I dig it. Especially if he hoists up Daario by the throught the next time he tries to crack an age joke. 

[ElizaD]

For a long time Hodor seemed more like an internet joke than a character, but I guess the reason "hodor!" became such a thing might be that the actor had a warm, likable presence. He only had one line, yet on a show as dark as GOT a Hodor scene always seemed like a guarantee that at least one decent person was around.

After briefly getting excited when it became clear the show was doing the Kingsmoot after all, it's funny/sad that my reaction to the TV Ironborn ended up mirroring the books: I just don't care. The show needed someone charismatic who could instantly make Euron feel like he mattered (like Pedro Pascal did in season 4), but this actor is just a random dude in medieval costume. Alfie's acting is the only good thing about that plot.

Sansa's big speeches will end up being completely worthless if she ends up letting Littlefinger, a guy she knows to be a manipulative murderer who left her to be raped, turn her against Jon. It's so frustrating that she never, ever seems to learn and is a hindrance to her house rather than an asset.

[GrailKing]

14 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

For a long time Hodor seemed more like an internet joke than a character, but I guess the reason "hodor!" became such a thing might be that the actor had a warm, likable presence. He only had one line, yet on a show as dark as GOT a Hodor scene always seemed like a guarantee that at least one decent person was around.

After briefly getting excited when it became clear the show was doing the Kingsmoot after all, it's funny/sad that my reaction to the TV Ironborn ended up mirroring the books: I just don't care. The show needed someone charismatic who could instantly make Euron feel like he mattered (like Pedro Pascal did in season 4), but this actor is just a random dude in medieval costume. Alfie's acting is the only good thing about that plot.

Sansa's big speeches will end up being completely worthless if she ends up letting Littlefinger, a guy she knows to be a manipulative murderer who left her to be raped, turn her against Jon. It's so frustrating that she never, ever seems to learn and is a hindrance to her house rather than an asset.

I didn't care for Euron or Damphair, I have a hard time getting into pirate type stuff, but Alfie is freaking good.

I just watched episode 5 for like the fourth time and I don't see Sansa trusting him at all, and he is going to try and manipulate the siblings no doubt in my mind or hers.

Sansa's reaction wasn't like he was right about Jon and she mentally agrees, looked like she is aware of what he plans to do, she just doesn't know how yet.

I think when she reference Ramsey with Roose and Jon with Ned I think she was trying to make a statement that the North would follow Jon bastard or no because he has the blood of Ned ( Lyanna?) over Ramsey who is northern but a usurper who's house is built on fear and has no challenger at the moment; it sounded better in her mind then the way it flowed from her lips; her reaction to Brienne's call out was telling as she had no answer, next scene she gives Jon the leathers, a lot of sewing to manipulate someone who already said he fight with and for you.

I think ( but could be wrong )Sansa is trying to keep LF from Jon more to protect him then to deceive him she's doing the game, but she's green so is winging it at this time, hence her lie about Black Fish, she also has trust issues with Baleish, the Arryns, people surrounding Jon; there is only three people she trust at the moment, Jon, Brienne and Pod, the rest have to prove themselves and she probably needs to see if she can get the Vale herself, bypassing LF, I'm not sure if she can, her look on my avatar seems like maybe not, she still in training.

[Argenta]

6 hours ago, Fishslap said:

I don't think it changes the curious fact that a lot of people seem more upset over animals dying than people. I don't think the DWs are any more beautiful than any other animals, or people for that matter. And they are not meaningful characters on the TV show was my point with saying that they have no lines. They're like amateur Tolkien eagles, occasionally swooping in to rescue some hopeless situation, but otherwise not contributing anything of note to the story. Apart from symbolism that is, which is why they are dying in the first place. Personally I barely notice them, except when I come here and then remember that there were dogs on the show I just watched because people are so upset that one of them died again.

With no disrespect or snippiness intended, several people have now explained in some detail why they're attached to the wolves and find their deaths upsetting, and you still insist you don't get it...

I'd say two further things: it's OK to value animals as well as people (including fictional animals), and given that it is fiction we're dealing with, most people make judgements differently than they would in real life. Very few people would put animals above people in real life if it came right down to it, but in TV-land, I for one reserve the right to consider an animal I like more important than a human character I don't. 

And to be fair, it's not as if Summer's death was the first time GoT viewers have shown grief - almost all the human characters who have died so far (except the nasty ones we deem to have deserved it) have been mourned as well. The reaction to Hodor's sacrifice on this very thread is proof of that. 

You barely notice the direwolves and don't find them particularly beautiful? Fair enough - but others differ :)

[Oscirus]

Quote

 

According to the writers and the actor, he genuinely didn't know.

His plan is still really stupid, mind you.

 

He took a risk on Ramsay and it blew up in his face, that was bound to happen as many risks as he takes. I don't know if it was a stupid plan on his part since it got him warden of the north and even if she doesn't want to admit it yet. Sansa's still currently attached to him.  So he didn't really lose anything.  Admittedly it does suck that Sansa had to suffer, but I do see why he did it.

So is that it for Euron, because I don't see him being able to do anything anytime soon.

I really hate the fact that Willis was raised to be sacrificial cattle. I'd argue that his story is worst then anybody elses in Game of Thrones.

So I guess we can expect Jorah to return right as Dany's about to be killed.

Can Arya stop playing make believe and get with the real story? I really have no desire to continue watching her get self righteous and pouty because she can't kill who she wants.

I'm going to create my own ship. People better hurry up now while there's still space. I shall call it Yarion.

[paigow]

17 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I'm going to create my own ship. People better hurry up now while there's still space. I shall call it Yarion.

Unless she gets a makeover at "Spa de PetitFinger" our favourite imp would decline a free ticket

Edited May 24, 2016 by paigow

[Misplaced]

10 hours ago, SeanC said:

Bryan Cogman said it in the first interview he did with Entertainment Weekly after Sansa was raped, and they've reiterated it at many points since.

 

But these guys also said Jon was dead, dead, deadity dead never come back dead, which clearly wasn't true...by saying "yeah, Littlefinger had no idea," Cogman shuts down the conversation.  If he said "yup, that Littlefinger, he knew Ramsay was a total bastid," he gets a thousand follow-up questions about LIttlefinger's long-term game plan.  And not incidentally sets everyone else's brain gears grinding away at plot developments.   

My own internal monologue says Littlefinger knew exactly what he was doing -- either Sansa dies, and as her uncle with the support of Robyn-her-cousin he rallies the North against the Boltons, or she's horribly abused (well I guess that part worked) and he sweeps in as her uncle with the support of her cousin to rescue her with the Vale army, rallying the North, and then probably marries her (or marries her off to Robyn and bumps off Robyn).  Either way he has the North and the Vale, and marches on King's Landing.    

Edited May 24, 2016 by Misplaced

[paigow]

Wondering if the Volantis brothels have Priestess lookalikes now...

[SeanC]

21 minutes ago, Misplaced said:

But these guys also said Jon was dead, dead, deadity dead never come back dead, which clearly wasn't true...by saying "yeah, Littlefinger had no idea," Cogman shuts down the conversation.  If he said "yup, that Littlefinger, he knew Ramsay was a total bastid," he gets a thousand follow-up questions about LIttlefinger's long-term game plan.  And not incidentally sets everyone else's brain gears grinding away at plot developments.  

They don't get a thousand followup questions in these kinds of interviews.  And there's really no comparison with lying about Jon; it's impossible to reveal whether he truly knew or not, for one thing.  Given that most of the audience who doesn't read these interviews has tend, on balance, to assume he must have known, they aren't gaining any huge advantage thereby either (heck, even some of the actors aren't aware of the writer's explanation).

It makes no sense for Littlefinger to give Sansa, who is a compliant game piece, to somebody who will brutally torture her, when that has has the entirely logical consequence of turning her against him.  He doesn't gain anything by that.

[stagmania]

7 hours ago, SFoster21 said:

It is awfully confusing.

I mean, he tells the Vale lords that Sansa needs to be rescued, right?

The LF stuff is getting pretty convoluted.

I think in making the change to insert Sansa into the story with the Boltons, they never bothered to figure out Littlefinger's motives for doing it or his long term plan, and now we're seeing the end result of that sloppy choice-it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't hold up for me that he wouldn't have known about Ramsey; knowing things about the people he deals with is his entire schtick, and I find it hard to believe that tales of Ramsey's cruelty wouldn't have gotten to him. And now he's back to "rescue" Sansa from the very situation he put her in, even though he supposedly didn't know her marriage was to a sadist, and even though taking her from the Boltons would ruin the alliance he just formed with them. None of it really hangs together.

Salon published a good piece on his murky motives this week, for anyone who's interested.

Edited May 24, 2016 by stagmania

[SeanC]

20 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I think in making the change to insert Sansa into the story with the Boltons, they never bothered to figure out Littlefinger's motives for doing it or his long term plan, and now we're seeing the end result of that sloppy choice-it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't hold up for me that he wouldn't have known about Ramsey; knowing things about the people he deals with is his entire schtick, and I find it hard to believe that tales of Ramsey's cruelty wouldn't have gotten to him. And now he's back to "rescue" Sansa from the very situation he put her in, even though he supposedly didn't know her marriage was to a sadist, and even though taking her from the Boltons would ruin the alliance he just formed with them. None of it really hangs together.

The alliance with the Boltons was never meant to hold.  In the minds of the showrunners, his plan is:

1. Put Sansa in Winterfell.
2. Tell Cersei about it, thus getting Crown permission to invade the North without suspicion.
3. Tell the Vale lords that Sansa needs to be rescued, thus motivating them.
4. Invade the North and attack whichever of Stannis or the Boltons won the big battle (and who presumably have Sansa in custody).  Win.  Presumably marry Sansa, then turn on the Lannisters.

What he didn't know initially was that Sansa really would need to be rescued because he didn't know Ramsay was a psycho.

Now, this is still a really stupid plan, since he can seemingly convince Robin to do whatever he wants, the only thing he really gains is Crown permission, which doesn't actually require using the real Sansa and, since the Vale is invulnerable, is arguably not necessary at all.  But the writers needed a reason to put Sansa in Jeyne Poole's place.  Note also that there has been no attempt at all to have Sansa explain what she was trying to accomplish in Winterfell this season, and this episode had her frame her going to Winterfell as Littlefinger giving her to the Boltons.

[Constantinople]

14 hours ago, Alapaki said:

For me the hardest thing about that Wyllis/Hodor reveal is that he lived his whole life from that point on knowing how he was going to die.

I'm not sure how to say this, but that's not an insight unique to Hodor.

Valar Morghulis.

[Tikichick]

I've started to pay attention that there may be significance in two different faiths having two different, yet in a way parallel figures.  The CoTF appear juvenile, are known to be very old and live in the north.  The Red Priestesses are very warm, appear very beautiful, yet are in fact also very old. 

[Dev F]

6 hours ago, ElizaD said:

After briefly getting excited when it became clear the show was doing the Kingsmoot after all, it's funny/sad that my reaction to the TV Ironborn ended up mirroring the books: I just don't care. The show needed someone charismatic who could instantly make Euron feel like he mattered (like Pedro Pascal did in season 4), but this actor is just a random dude in medieval costume.

Yeah, Euron's first appearance teased the notion that he was something creepier and craftier than a big, dumb pirate, but his kingsmoot pitch made him seem like exactly that. And after the bridge scene and the initial kingsmoot talk gave me hope that the storyline would escape the unbelievably moronic "If you kill the ruler, you get to be the ruler!" paradigm the show has been flogging all season in multiple storylines, of course Euron shows up at the moot and immediately brags about killing Balon as if it's a qualification instead of a crime.

[SFoster21]

11 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I'm not sure how to say this, but that's not an insight unique to Hodor.

Valar Morghulis.

Not to mention Valar doeharis. (sp?)

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

Hodor is dying while controlled by Bran's wargdom, yes?  What if Hodor shifts into a wight, with Bran still "inside" him?  Perhaps Bran will then gain the (helpful) White Walker attributes that some here have speculated are crucial to a (happy-ish) endgame.  Nah, that's not how wargdom works, I think.  Wargs don't retain attributes of the lives they've possessed.  

But perhaps Hodor might become a different kind of wight.  I would like him to be spared two existences of erasure. 

[mac123x]

11 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

There is now way Bran and Meera can make it to the Wall alive without help. Bran is heavy, even if warging Meera there is no way she can carry him all that way. Since I don't think there is a surviving Children of the Forest or a couple of nice wildlings  eager to help a crippled boy and a tiny girl out there, I'm putting my money on uncle Benjen coming out from whoever he has been all this time and saving the day. And that, I shall say, would make me extremely happy, specially after poor Hodor.

I suspect you're right, and it would be nice to bring Benjen back into the story, but I'll still give the show the side-eye. Unless they can adequately explain why Benjen was lurking nearby but never stopped into the tree to say "hey" to his nephew, it'll seem too contrived.

[Edith]

"Once he had been taught to do something, he did it deftly. His hands were always gentle, though his strength was astonishing.“You could have been a knight too, I bet,” Bran told him. “If the gods hadn’t taken your wits, you would have been a great knight.” (Clash of Kings, Bran II).

One of the saddest death is the series but at least he did become the greatest knight at the end! 

And Summer man that was harsh! Seriously STOP killing the direwolfs!!!

I didn't care about the Ironbore. I skipped while reading, I rolled my eyes while watching 

If Sansa betrays Jon then she will become the first Stark that I will want dead and cheers when is happening! 

Mereen was fine just like last episode. In fact I prefer this storyline that Bravos..

[paramitch]

Oh, fuck you, show. Again. A thousandfold.

I still think this show is superb in so many ways. But, increasingly, I've begun to resent its lack of joy, in the fact that it's an exercise in pretty much unceasing misery, with occasional exclamation marks for (Look! How! Real! We're! Being! in! Fantasy!

But what does that matter? If there's no joy? What does it matter to the characters in that world? To us, as viewers? If there's no joy, what do they have to live for? I get the historical references, but I guarantee you that even those involved in life before the Glencoe massacre or the Wars of the Roses had moments of real uplift and exuberance. Where is that feeling on this show? EVER? Even those moments of rare sweetness we do get here feel filled with greyness and foreboding. (See also: Meera's sweet scene with Hodor about the foods they look forward to).

To me, increasingly, the world of Game of Thrones is a grimy and hopeless one. There's no break from the absolute onslaught of death, loss, misery, and tragedy, and that makes me really sad. But I'm angry too. Because the show, as superb as it truly is, is empty. There's no heart beating beneath it. No joy beneath the tragedy. It's just unrelenting misery. I'm still here. I'll keep watching. But -- after Shireen, which was my breaking point -- I always know it will be horrible, whereas no matter how dark other shows I loved got, there was still love, still palpable, real joy -- even in incredible darkness -- in "Hannibal," "Penny Dreadful," "The Magicians" (an utterly underrated season-long adaptation), etc. The worst part is, for me, Shireen died and TV Tropes have ensured that we haven't seen the conversation that would have taken places HOURS/DAYS ago between Davos and Melisandre. Or Davos and Jon, Davos and Brienne (he has reason to seek her out), etc.

But no. The show is already full of zombies, and the Night's King hasn't even won yet.

I'll still watch, to the bitter end. But honestly, I won't care as much as I once might have. I'm desensitized. Kill all the direwolves, fine, go for it. It's cheap and tiresome as both a reader and a viewer. Fine. I've checked out. Even here, I was devastated at poor Hodor, and Summer, the Three-Eyed Raven, and even Leaf, and yet I didn't care as much as I would have two years ago. I'm tired. I half wish they'd all go so it was all over. I'm weirdly grateful for this season because at least it moves -- and ends the miseries of many characters involved. Gah.

On 5/23/2016 at 7:08 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Don't have Dany marry into the Greyjoys. Just...no.

I dunno, I could support Dany + Theon (since she can't have kids anyway). Or, even better, Dany + Yara!

 

On 5/23/2016 at 9:25 PM, polyhymnia said:

I think that was the first time we've ever seen Varys genuinely shaken in public.  Conleth did a great job with that scene.

I felt so, so sorry for Varys in that scene. With that witch expertly playing his emotions like a stringed instrument, keeping his own real protestations in rein against what she proposed.

Because that religion is evil. We've seen it. I cannot condone a religion that ecstatically burns countless innocents to feed its power. Screw R'hllor. 

On 5/23/2016 at 9:51 PM, Happy Harpy said:

Oh, Brienne, never change. I love you, your bluntness, your loyalty, your hand on your sword itching to slay Littlefinger on the spot. The only thing that makes me sad is how she doesn't trust my Davos.

The thing that bothers me is that neither Davos nor Brienne have evidently attempted to speak? And come on, I mean, I love Brienne, but I get frustrated with her constant vision of Renly as Rightful King when we all know he had zero claim. Zero. And she (despite her hopeless crush) should have known it too. Or at least in retrospect. To view Davos as untrustworthy because he followed Stannis is absurd -- Stannis was the rightful king after Robert's death. It just makes Brienne look simple. Which perhaps she is, slightly. (And I say this a someone who adores her).

 

On 5/23/2016 at 10:05 PM, stillshimpy said:

Oh show, you can be a bit tiring.  At least we had the monotony of the dumber Vikings and Arya's bad hair days to give me a chance to gird my emotional courage. The way the show uses the dire wolves solely as tools of emotional manipulation has me braced for the worst every time they are onscreen anyway. Poor Hodor with his one word vocabulary (akin to a woof) was also always going to be victimized via his loyalty in a manner reminiscent of the wolves. 

On on the upside the show has largely lost the ability to hurt me on any level.  Careful. Desensitization leads to apathy, show.

This pretty much exactly states how I feel. Notice how we never see moments of happy direwolf communion? No scenes of life with a pet that adores you and is connected especially with you? I kind of always pictured the Direwolves as the Stark children's daemons, as per Philip Pullman, in other words, as something beyond pets, as beings that were there to love and be love, and that were connected to who they are. But that just makes the show's trajectory all the more tragic.

On 5/23/2016 at 5:20 AM, stagmania said:

In another piece from last night, the same VF writer laid out a theory for why the White Walkers have languished in the north and how they'll now make their way down through Westeros. Essentially, Bran is the key to getting them past the magic that protects the realm (as he inadvertently gave them access to the cave), and thus will bring about the big battle. I think it's a compelling possibility, though it definitely makes me sad that Bran's role in the story is ultimately to bring about death and destruction. If it actually goes this way, I hope there's some sort of redemption for him before the end.

This revelation kind of makes me sick. I mean, since it's utterly tragic I'm sure it will happen, but the idea that Bran has anything to apologize for, ever, is ridiculous. Despite the pages upon pages of critiques of this poor kid's behavior, the fact is that he behaved without any evil intention. Ever. He climbed a tower -- as kids do. He took advantage of a chance to view his father (still alive, in the past). It doesn't make him culpable for anything at all. He did not act with malice. 

Why does Bran need redeeming? He has done absolutely nothing wrong in the history of this show except (perhaps) to warg into Hodor when he didn't always need to. But who could resist either scenario? Bran got to see his dad... and walk on two legs, tall and strong. I never want him to apologize for an instant. Nobody told him "Don't do this or Big Bad Things will happen." Nobody said, "Bran, if you go back, you could End the World." The three-eyed Raven was an idiot (or, as usual, acting within the confines of the plot to ensure that characters act as required for maximum drama and tragedy as they march us on toward the unending depressing ending of this show/books).

22 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

When Euron talked about cutting down every tree,etc. I did find that amusing. I'm sure the show will have a fleet of ships appear by the end of the season, but between the "uh...do you see any trees ?"

I laughed out loud at this. Because -- as someone who adores 17th and 18th century British Naval history and such series as Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin novels, the whole idea that Euron would have the navy he desires within A DECADE is absurd.

20 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

I feel sorry for the proto-White Walker, but wonder if the guy was some aggressor like Drogo that the CoF's captured or some farmer that the CoF's snuck up on. In the end, he reminded me about the fairytale about the Snow Queen (the real one, not that Disney shit) where the boy gets a piece of magic glass stuck in his heart and it freezes all the humanity inside of him. All Men Must Die, because look what happens to the one that didn't. 

I love that you bring up "The Snow Queen," as that's one of my all-time favorite fairy tales, and it's certainly intriguingly applicable here in some ways. I was most interested that the dragonglass that kills is also the dragonglass that created them.

14 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I think [Sansa] was stating the obvious.  And since Ramsay the bastard was able to get men to fight alongside of him and be loyal, and gain Winterfell, Sansa was pointing out (IMO) that the same could hold true for Jon. I think her overall point is this: The North is still loyal to the Starks. We can't get back the North without Northern assistance.  I will be the Stark figurehead and Jon will be the leader, who just like Ramsay, can inspire men to follow and fight alongside him.

I totally agree with your take on the strategy behind Sansa's comment here. Also, so glad to see someone else emphatically not shipping Sansa/Jon in any way. Ugh.

13 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Maybe when the Night King is defeated or, what it looks like, is put out of his misery and if Bran makes it, he will hang up his magic ability and be a castle raiser or something. I think because of Bran's massive fuck up that he knew Bran would always make, he wanted Bran to take a way a hard, hard lesson that will haunt him to the rest of his days and force him not to be so reckless with other people's lives and sacrifices. Frankly, as far as fantasy goes, it was a weird magic rule that the only thing that has been able to see and touch him in a vision besides the Three Eyed Raven was the Night King. The Gods of the Forest are kind of jerks.

Really wonderfully put. I'm interested if that was, in fact, the 3ER's POV there -- my only frustration is, as is all-too-usual in TV-land, he didn't simply SAY SO TO BRAN to begin with. The fact that 3ER and the CotF (Leaf specifically) had so much foreknowledge of the future yet gave Bran so little really bothers me and feels artificial and false, too "we needed them to do this so that the plot would move forward."

13 hours ago, Wulfsige said:

Or, it could be as it seemed to be presented initially to Sansa. Ramsey could be so-so okay-ish but nonetheless Sansa will never have any affection for him and she wants all Boltons dead. So LF shows up with his army, kills lots of people, and she’s grateful and marries him and together they take over the world. But then why did he marry her to Ramsey in the first place? They could just have gathered the Vale army and rode up to Winterfell in full battle mode without her having to marry into an enemy family.

I agree, and actually do think Littlefinger erred strategically there -- I think he thought that Ramsay was (1) too held in check by his father and ambition to really harm Sansa, and (2) would further have to be mindful of her value to the North. I think he really did think he was setting Sansa up for a fairly benign if forced marriage (if such a repugnant phrase is even possible).

However, at the same time, I loved Sansa's scene with LF because it was the first time (beyond her "I know what you want") that we've seen her confront him as equals. She faces him, speaks about her abuse, and is strong, steely, and very happy to go into detail. Even better, she directly references his own experiences as a brothel owner and what she knows about him but has never spoken. The bloom is off the rose in more ways than one: He is no longer some potential older savior or prince charming, but a dishonest, conniving and corrupt man. So I liked that she actually called out -- subtly -- his rather laughably romantic inclinations toward her -- inclinations that are even more absurd once you know who he is and what he's done. (I'll never forget poor Ros, among many others.)

[mac123x]

2 minutes ago, paramitch said:

Because that religion is evil. We've seen it. I cannot condone a religion that ecstatically burns countless innocents to feed its power. Screw R'hllor

And the religion seems to be a hollow lie.  According to Mel and her red friends, there are two gods;  R'hllor and the Great Other whose name cannot be spoken, who represents darkness and death and general unpleasentness, etc.  We now know that the Others were created by the Children of the Forest; so did they also create R'hllor, or have the red priests mistaken the random results from blood magic as being acts of an imaginary Lord of Light?

[Harald Hardrada]

13 minutes ago, mac123x said:

And the religion seems to be a hollow lie.  According to Mel and her red friends, there are two gods;  R'hllor and the Great Other whose name cannot be spoken, who represents darkness and death and general unpleasentness, etc.  We now know that the Others were created by the Children of the Forest; so did they also create R'hllor, or have the red priests mistaken the random results from blood magic as being acts of an imaginary Lord of Light?

Perhaps R'hllor used to be brothers with the Drowned God and Many-Faced God? all three related to death and reincarnation.

[Misplaced]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

They don't get a thousand followup questions in these kinds of interviews.  And there's really no comparison with lying about Jon; it's impossible to reveal whether he truly knew or not, for one thing.

You are of course correct that LF's motivations are not at the level of Jon's not-so-death -- I'm only trying to show that there's no reason to expect a fully honest answer that might reveal important plot points or end-games.  And I do think LF's knowledge or lack thereof matters.  Anyway here's hoping we get more development on that score.  

Edited May 24, 2016 by Misplaced
Proofreading, sigh

[WearyTraveler]

19 minutes ago, Harald Hardrada said:

Perhaps R'hllor used to be brothers with the Drowned God and Many-Faced God? all three related to death and reincarnation.

And The Stranger (from the 7).  I think what Martin was going for here is the notion that many religions have common origins and that, through the years, they might drift further apart because of how the next generation interprets a key fact or because the story changed a bit as it was passed down from generation to generation.  In the end, I suspect we will not be able to say only one of the in-world religions was right.

------------------------------------------------------------

On the episode and the comments made about Summer's death:  The more I know human kind, the more I love my dog. 

And that's one of the reasons I get upset when one of the direwolves dies.  Sometimes that upsets me more than people dying, yes, some people, that is, not all.  Another reason is that even if on the show the direwolves are merely glorified bodyguards, I am a book reader, and I can't help but see them as I see them in the books.  Every time one of the Starks is warging a wolf, the internal dialog changes.  The wolves have their own thoughts and personalities, they miss their brothers and sisters, they express emotions.... and so on.  They are full-fledged characters, and D&D just haven't been able (or willing) to put that on the show, but I know it. So, yeah, I'm devastated when one of them dies.

[MrWhyt]

50 minutes ago, mac123x said:

And the religion seems to be a hollow lie.  According to Mel and her red friends, there are two gods;  R'hllor and the Great Other whose name cannot be spoken, who represents darkness and death and general unpleasentness, etc.  We now know that the Others were created by the Children of the Forest; so did they also create R'hllor, or have the red priests mistaken the random results from blood magic as being acts of an imaginary Lord of Light?

You're assuming that the "Great Other", R'hllor's adversary, is an actual Other/White Walker.

Edited May 24, 2016 by MrWhyt

[sacrebleu]

Quote

Nobody told him "Don't do this or Big Bad Things will happen." Nobody said, "Bran, if you go back, you could End the World." The three-eyed Raven was an idiot (or, as usual, acting within the confines of the plot to ensure that characters act as required for maximum drama and tragedy as they march us on toward the unending depressing ending of this show/books).

Yeah. this. 3ER really should have said something about not going near the NK because even in the spectral realm- he can lock onto you and invade this sanctuary. That seems like a pretty important piece of information.

I'm kind of hoping that Varys takes Theon under his wing and shows him the career opportunities available to a eunuch. Let Yara be Dany's admiral-- and sail her an her many armies across the narrow sea.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, paramitch said:

So I liked that she actually called out -- subtly -- his rather laughably romantic inclinations toward her -- inclinations that are even more absurd once you know who he is and what he's done. (I'll never forget poor Ros, among many others.)

Littlefinger's show of horror is pretty hilarious, given that in the show he supplied prostitutes for others to abuse. "Someone gave a girl to a monster knowing she'd be tortured? Who could have done such a thing?????" It's also pretty funny to see Littlefinger making such a show of remose over TV Sansa's plight, when Book LF was not only directly responsible for what happened to Book Jeyne but also "trained" her (i.e. had her whipped and raped in his brothel) to be an obedient bride.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Eyes High

[stillshimpy]

paramitch , my quest for west coast cable was thwarted by the fickle TimeWarner gods (most decidedly demons, in truth) and hopefully Frontier will rescue me from continued complete inability to quote (for in fiber optics lies my path to a fucking keyboard, sweet lords of mercy ) but I digress(ya think?) : so on the subject of the lack of narrative balance in this continuing story, I agree.  People met and fell in love in concentration camps, poetry and plays were written during war and songs sung even in times of famine.  At least this is historically true. 

This particular story has largely decided to tell the tale of grit, darkness and misery. Where we will get a scene of Stannis telling Shireen how much he loves her and rather than that being balm to our bruised hearts, it's actually a sign of horror to come. That existed to make the burning scene more devastating. 

Hodor and Meera's scene was there so that we'd all feel sufficiently kicked in the chops at the end. It's true that the modern-day series (tv or book, or both) has largely confused grit, murk and darkness with the height of storytelling sophistication. However, the cast often makes it possible to perceive levity simply by adding human shading to a moment. 

I don't necessarily care less than I once did, I just know the storytellers better than I did at first. They've traded emotional investment for a tale almost as unvaried as a child's fantasy story where nothing truly bad ever happens. Flipping that coin doesn't actually prove narrative or intellectual merit though. Martin has a better grip on a world where yes, hideous things happen, but people enjoy something from time-to-time. He doesn't have the same disdain for delight that the show does. 

Oddly the thing that ticked me off more than the tragedy in this episode was the attempt at merriment: a closeup of someone's warty willy.  Really? Ya'll thought that through from page to production, makeup hair and lighting and found it worthy of time,effort and budget?  That is pretty key to my lack of emotional devastation from the attempts to upset me. Apparently an unimaginative fourteen year old boy got loose in the writer's room and he thinks he's very grownup! Dick humor. Yeah, can't really get het up by their choices as they've actually started to skew towards the sophistication of a high school freshman and all their terrible "see food!" Flashing of mouthfuls of chewed-up pepperoni pizza. 

But I digress (ya think?) and the show never has been particularly skilled at understanding that being guided by better impulses and moral choices is not actually the land walked only by the perpetually dim and simplistic. Brienne's objection to backing Stannis actually had to do with murdering Renly via dark arts, so it wasn't quite about rightful claims, but rather "I distrust those that would choose that". The show runners have always confused an adherence to honor with a lack of wits. I was both relieved and astounded that page Ned was not an idiot. He just didn't understand a complete lack of inherent decency as an animating force.  

I can't tell if the makers of the show are unable to convey a person who is moral, without being self-righteous, or if they don't trust that audiences can sus out the difference. Then I think about the Flash of Warty Willy and know that people spending time and effort on that scene must think that is what audiences think is funny. The spirit of Tosh.0 is apparently with them. 

 

Just saying I don't think the show's lack of balance is solely about the story and it isn't solely about the source material either. Or even the "look how daring we're being!" We equate dark, gritty drama with narrative merit  maybe because it is a fairly recent trend in tv to be allowed to have drama not forcibly leavened by regularly scheduled insertions of mirth.  HBO in particular made their dramatic series bones on dark drama (there was still humor in The Wire) and they seemed to have embraced the "if some is good, then surely a metric fuck ton is better!"  I'm just not as convinced that these choices are solely evidence of anything to do with the show runners or writer (Delorous Ed in the books is hilarious, regularly) but rather the network. 

 

Boarswalk Empire started out as a fairly balanced show, but apparently people thought that Nucky wasn't violent enough for a gangster and as a result the show turned the violence up so far I quit watching entirely. I think HBO is actually dictating this hyper darkness. The first season wasn't as terrified of fun.  As for Penny and Hannibal, they both rely on people being willing to view hyper-realized-gore. Their darkness is messier but still there.

[Alapaki]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I'm not sure how to say this, but that's not an insight unique to Hodor.

Valar Morghulis.

True.  But how many people get to know how they're going to go, how bad it's going to be, and are stuck in a prison of their own bodies and minds and functionally incapable of even trying to do something to change that future?

[screamin]

2 hours ago, paramitch said:

Nobody told him "Don't do this or Big Bad Things will happen." Nobody said, "Bran, if you go back, you could End the World."

No. But he WAS told, "If you stay in a flashback too long, you will drown." That's a Bad Thing, innit? He showed no sign of taking it seriously. IIRC, he never stepped back of his own volition from any vision - Bloodraven always had to prompt and nag him. Despite the fact that he was told the waters were dangerous, he went swimming in them alone without telling anyone. IMO, that in itself puts a certain amount of responsibility on him for any lifeguard who has to follow him in to rescue him - regardless of whether he's fallen victim to the undertow he's been warned about or the sharks that he hasn't been warned about.

I do agree my first post against Bran in this thread was a bit intemperate. He only meant to risk himself, not anyone else. And certainly the excess of guilt he's going to get will outweigh the sin he was committing. He still bears some responsibility, though, IMO.

Edited May 24, 2016 by screamin
to IMO.

[Alapaki]

Bran absolutely knew that we wasn't supposed to go visioning without the 3ER's guidance.  The 3ER explicitly told him that he was bringing him along slowly so that he'd be ready for everything he was to learn.  And, at that point, other than Ned maybe having heard him at the TOJ flashback, Bran wasn't certain that he could have any actual effect on the scenes he was visioning.  So he went off on his own for no reason other than his own impatient curiosity.

And, yes, I get that the temptation to do that, after all that they'd been through, must be strong.  But by this point Bran has to know that there's a bigger game afoot and that he's somehow integral to it.

[Alapaki]

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

The alliance with the Boltons was never meant to hold.  In the minds of the showrunners, his plan is:

1. Put Sansa in Winterfell.
2. Tell Cersei about it, thus getting Crown permission to invade the North without suspicion.
3. Tell the Vale lords that Sansa needs to be rescued, thus motivating them.
4. Invade the North and attack whichever of Stannis or the Boltons won the big battle (and who presumably have Sansa in custody).  Win.  Presumably marry Sansa, then turn on the Lannisters.

What he didn't know initially was that Sansa really would need to be rescued because he didn't know Ramsay was a psycho.

Now, this is still a really stupid plan, since he can seemingly convince Robin to do whatever he wants, the only thing he really gains is Crown permission, which doesn't actually require using the real Sansa and, since the Vale is invulnerable, is arguably not necessary at all.  But the writers needed a reason to put Sansa in Jeyne Poole's place.  Note also that there has been no attempt at all to have Sansa explain what she was trying to accomplish in Winterfell this season, and this episode had her frame her going to Winterfell as Littlefinger giving her to the Boltons.

I agree that most the holes in the Littlefinger/Sansa plotline probably arise from the writers' not wanting to bother establishing the Jeyne Poole character.

However, narratively, I suppose it's possibly plausible that even knowing Ramsey was a head-case, Littlefinger was counting on Roose to keep him relatively in line.  I don't recall them introducing the Lady Hornwood back-story on the show.  Without that, Littlefinger might be excused for not knowing that Ramsey was just as sadistic with his friends/allies/"lovers" as he was with his enemies.

I think Littlefinger tends to count on people behaving in rationally self-interested ways.  And it was certainly in the Bolton's self-interest to keep Sansa safe and sound at least until she fathered a Bolton/Stark male heir to Winterfell.

[screamin]

9 hours ago, ElizaD said:

Sansa's big speeches will end up being completely worthless if she ends up letting Littlefinger, a guy she knows to be a manipulative murderer who left her to be raped, turn her against Jon. It's so frustrating that she never, ever seems to learn and is a hindrance to her house rather than an asset.

If Sansa's motivation was to plan to betray Jon, she would have accepted LF's offer of an army right off the bat, because she knows LF has a letch both for her and for power. IMO, she refused LF because she knows that a numerically superior army led by LF, though it might defeat Ramsey's army, would likely backstab Jon and take her back as a pawn (she's a prime candidate to being Queen in the North, after all). If that were her desired outcome, she'd have accepted LF's help with open arms.

I agree that she erred in not entrusting Jon with what she did and her reasons for it. I'd guess she thought that the prospect of having a Vale army on their side riding against Ramsey might be too much temptation for Jon, and he might be overconfident enough to think he could accept the army and still outsmart LF - whereas Sansa doesn't think so.

I think and HOPE that that's Sansa's reasoning. And I think her other actions back that up - dressing up Jon to look like their father, so that the Northerners will remember their Stark loyalty and direct it specifically at JON. To me that looks like she's not interested in supplanting him in power.

I HOPE that's all Sansa intends - because if it turns out that the long-term plan is that Sansa backstabs Jon with a mwa-ha-ha! of Sudden Evil, I'm done.

Maybe what the showrunners are doing are trying to put Show Sansa back in the place that Book Sansa is - still LF's loyal shadow, half-brainwashed into believing that's really ALL she is...setting her to be and do whatever GRRM has planned for her book finale. But if that's their plan, they're screwing up, because Show Sansa has already shown herself to have irrevocably changed from Book Sansa - to shove her back into that role would be damn stupid.

[nksarmi]

13 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

I agree that most the holes in the Littlefinger/Sansa plotline probably arise from the writers' not wanting to bother establishing the Jeyne Poole character.

However, narratively, I suppose it's possibly plausible that even knowing Ramsey was a head-case, Littlefinger was counting on Roose to keep him relatively in line.  I don't recall them introducing the Lady Hornwood back-story on the show.  Without that, Littlefinger might be excused for not knowing that Ramsey was just as sadistic with his friends/allies/"lovers" as he was with his enemies.

I think Littlefinger tends to count on people behaving in rationally self-interested ways.  And it was certainly in the Bolton's self-interest to keep Sansa safe and sound at least until she fathered a Bolton/Stark male heir to Winterfell.

I think the show was saying much the same with Tyrion and the slavers in Meereen yet Grey Worm still insisted that he didn't understand them. I don't know if GW will be right or if Tyrion will but there are times when expecting someone to behave in rational, self-interested ways goes horribly wrong. Ramsey could definitely be one of those cases.

As someone who has NEVER been a book Sansa fan, I am shocked at the level of distrust she is getting on the show. I don't blame Sansa for not telling them about the offer of LF and the Vale. I think its particularly because she doesn't trust LF that she didn't give them that info. As to why she lied, if she said LF came to see her and told her about the Blackfish, wouldn't that require further explanation? She just didn't want to tell them about LF or any of it. If she trusted LF, she would have told Jon and would argue that they needed him. Her lie is more proof that she's going "all in" with Jon to me than anything else.

[Alapaki]

To give Sansa the benefit of the doubt on withholding information from Jon: it's possible that she did learn some important lessons from Kings Landing and from Littlefinger:  1) knowledge is power, especially when you hold it and know when to use it; 2) don't share that knowledge unless/until you know what the play is; and 3) it's good to have options.

She knows Littlefinger's offer of an army is going to stay on the table.  But an army led by the Blackfish would be more reliable.  See how that pans out and keep the Vale army as a fallback.

[SFoster21]

23 minutes ago, Alapaki said:

I agree that most the holes in the Littlefinger/Sansa plotline probably arise from the writers' not wanting to bother establishing the Jeyne Poole character.

However, narratively, I suppose it's possibly plausible that even knowing Ramsey was a head-case, Littlefinger was counting on Roose to keep him relatively in line.  I don't recall them introducing the Lady Hornwood back-story on the show.  Without that, Littlefinger might be excused for not knowing that Ramsey was just as sadistic with his friends/allies/"lovers" as he was with his enemies.

I think Littlefinger tends to count on people behaving in rationally self-interested ways.  And it was certainly in the Bolton's self-interest to keep Sansa safe and sound at least until she fathered a Bolton/Stark male heir to Winterfell.

Well, that was dumb, LF!

Sansa was an allegedly valuable hostage at KL, right?  Didn't slow Joffrey down.

[atua]

23 hours ago, Haleth said:

Interesting speculation several pages back that Bran's crossing under the Wall with the mark of the NK might lead to its collapse.

I saw this speculation on the Unsullied thread, and I'm liking this idea more and more. Assuming he heads back to the wall, I think Bran will not be able to cross the wall with the mark that the Night King gave him due to Wall's protective magic, and end up doing something that either weakens or outright collapses the Wall trying to get back. A "Bran the Breaker" to bookend his Builder namesake...

[lmsweb]

My take on the Sansa/Jon/Littlefinger thing is that she lied about it because then she'd have to fork over the info that Petyr met with her to tell her that the Vale army was at Moat Cailin. If Jon knew about that part, I can see him being all "um, why do we need to get all these dinky Northern Houses (which is going to take a lot more travelling and leg work to get to) when we have a large army stationed relatively close to Winterfell already at our disposal?" Sansa doesn't want Littlefinger of all people being able to say "yay, look! I got the North back for you. So in exchange, this is what you're going to do for me next...". I have a feeling the Vale army is definitely going to come into play at some point, just HOW it happens is still up in the air.

[MarySNJ]

2 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

And The Stranger (from the 7).  I think what Martin was going for here is the notion that many religions have common origins and that, through the years, they might drift further apart because of how the next generation interprets a key fact or because the story changed a bit as it was passed down from generation to generation.  In the end, I suspect we will not be able to say only one of the in-world religions was right.

------------------------------------------------------------

On the episode and the comments made about Summer's death:  The more I know human kind, the more I love my dog. 

And that's one of the reasons I get upset when one of the direwolves dies.  Sometimes that upsets me more than people dying, yes, some people, that is, not all.  Another reason is that even if on the show the direwolves are merely glorified bodyguards, I am a book reader, and I can't help but see them as I see them in the books.  Every time one of the Starks is warging a wolf, the internal dialog changes.  The wolves have their own thoughts and personalities, they miss their brothers and sisters, they express emotions.... and so on.  They are full-fledged characters, and D&D just haven't been able (or willing) to put that on the show, but I know it. So, yeah, I'm devastated when one of them dies.

I always assumed, based on the text and script, that the Many Faced God is really no god, but Death that comes to all people. The "religion" or ethics of the HoB&W seems to include an acceptance of the death beliefs and ritiuals of all Planetos religions. The specifics of each religion in regards to Death are not important, just that all men must die. 

I am hoping that Nymeria and Ghost manage to beat the odds against other dire wolves of House Stark. Unfortunately, we don't get to see much of the inner thoughts of the TV versions of these characters, and that's a real shame because that was one aspect of the books that I loved. 

[kittykat]

5 hours ago, SeanC said:

The alliance with the Boltons was never meant to hold.  In the minds of the showrunners, his plan is:

1. Put Sansa in Winterfell.
2. Tell Cersei about it, thus getting Crown permission to invade the North without suspicion.
3. Tell the Vale lords that Sansa needs to be rescued, thus motivating them.
4. Invade the North and attack whichever of Stannis or the Boltons won the big battle (and who presumably have Sansa in custody).  Win.  Presumably marry Sansa, then turn on the Lannisters.

What he didn't know initially was that Sansa really would need to be rescued because he didn't know Ramsay was a psycho.

Bingo.  That's exactly what I thought.  I think he presumed that Stannis would overrun Winterfell before the marriage could take place.  He miscalculated big time.  He also fed Olenna with the info on Cersei getting her arrested to cause further strife among the Lannisters and Tyrells, likely with the idea of fracturing them and bringing his army to one side (likely the Tyrell side)

This is all a convuluted plan for LF to end up with his beloved Cat 2.0.

[KarenTargaryen]

Littlefinger said the Vale troops were camped at Moat Caitlen.  Don't the Boltons have control of Moat Caitlen.

[DigitalCount]

I'd assume they had to withdraw to take on Stannis, though it's such an important outpost that one would assume they'd leave some men to guard it. 

[Oscirus]

As of now, Sansa's just a means to get more power for LF. If he can marry her that's the cherry on top but as of now,  he's just trying to get back in her good graces because she's still a usable piece but don't get it twisted, he'd gladly throw her into another situation if it would get him more power.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Oscirus

[stagmania]

2 hours ago, Alapaki said:

And, yes, I get that the temptation to do that, after all that they'd been through, must be strong.  But by this point Bran has to know that there's a bigger game afoot and that he's somehow integral to it.

This is where I'm at with it. Bran had no way of knowing exactly what would happen if he wandered on his own, but he did know he wasn't supposed to. Does that make him a terrible or unsympathetic person? No, of course not. Does it make him accountable for what happened? Yes, to a certain extent it does. And if him crossing past the wall with the Night King's mark is what ultimately leads to the white walker invasion, he has some culpability, whether he meant to do it or not. I think that given who Bran is, he would absolutely feel the burden of guilt and shame and seek out whatever redemption he can in helping to defeat them.

What I'm wondering is if Bran has any idea that the wall is protected by the same magic as the cave, and thus could be breached in the same way. I'm guessing that's another piece of information that has not been shared with him. 

Edited May 24, 2016 by stagmania

[rhygirl720]

1 hour ago, Alapaki said:

Bran absolutely knew that we wasn't supposed to go visioning without the 3ER's guidance.  The 3ER explicitly told him that he was bringing him along slowly so that he'd be ready for everything he was to learn.  And, at that point, other than Ned maybe having heard him at the TOJ flashback, Bran wasn't certain that he could have any actual effect on the scenes he was visioning.  So he went off on his own for no reason other than his own impatient curiosity.

And, yes, I get that the temptation to do that, after all that they'd been through, must be strong.  But by this point Bran has to know that there's a bigger game afoot and that he's somehow integral to it.

Bran is very young...14? on the show younger in the book That's a lot of responsibility for a kid that age even given the circumstances. We all make mistakes...unfortunately Bran's mistakes are lethal and brutal. I think Bran's role in what is to come is BIG! 

I not sure whether he is warging into someone or something or something yet to learn but his role will be vital.  I also think the loss of the direwolves is symbolic. I'm still not convinced that shaggy dog is gone.

[nksarmi]

1 hour ago, SFoster21 said:

Well, that was dumb, LF!

Sansa was an allegedly valuable hostage at KL, right?  Didn't slow Joffrey down.

Yeah and now that you mention it - there's the whole bit about LF knowing the kinds of things some men are into. Maybe he just spent too long watching men do it to whores that he assumes lords know better than to treat ladies like that?