S06.E04: Book of the Stranger

[The Mighty Peanut]

Daenerys Targaryen, the First of Her Name, Queen of Meereen, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, the Unburnt, Mother of Dragons, Queen of the MOTHERFUCKIN' MIC DROP FOR ALL ETERNITY

Edited May 16, 2016 by The Mighty Peanut

[SeanC]

28 minutes ago, Boilergal said:

I want the High Sparrow and Septa Unella to be caught snorting cocaine off the naked back end of one of the low sparrows - or something that would be just as damnable in that era - something to show him to be the utter hypocrite I know he has to be! 

Making the character into a hypocrite would be the laziest course the writers could take with the High Sparrow.

[qtpye]

Quote

The other thing is that Martin had a certain way of writing some complexity into his characters.  Cersie is an awful person.  But she's also legitimately aggrieved at being denied power/respect/authority solely because of her gender.  For as strong a person as she is, she's nothing more than a pawn to be married off by her father to the most politically expedient suitor.

LH brings out a humanity to Cersie, because you see how truly pathetic she is.  Cersie might think she would be a great warrior, but in truth she would hide like a little cowherd, not unlike her late son Joffrey.

Yes, it is unfair that her gender is treated so horribly in this world, but Cersie is not for girl power.  She hates women (with the exception of her daughter) and believes them to be inferior.  She just thinks SHE is too good for such treatment.

Also, out of all the women of the series she is the one who has always had a protector.  She was protected as Queen by the guard, by her father, by her name, by her brother, and now Franken Mountain is her champion. 

Many of the other women, like Dany, Aryia, and Sansa have often had nothing but their own strength and wits to rely on.  Cersie is a nasty spoiled little rich girl who must always have her way, to the detriment of all others.

Edited May 16, 2016 by qtpye

[Raachel2008]

10 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Meanwhile, this episode also confirms for me that Dany's going to end up as much of a villain as the White Walkers. Contrast Jon's denial last episode that he was a god and his only reluctantly wanting to go to war with Dany in this episode walking out of a fire she set to kill her enemies, basking as people fell down to worship her as a god and clearly intending to use her new worshipers as an army of conquest.

 

[DigitalCount]

So as far as the Dany issue goes: I'm finally at a computer, so I can bang out some of what didn't sit right with me.

I'd have more sympathy if Dany couldn't have escaped without killing the Khals. Daario and Jorah got in largely without incident, and the city doesn't have walls. The fact that the other crones allowed her to walk off to go to the bathroom with one escort is kinda breathtaking in its stupidity, but maybe they figured that even if she gave Crone #2 the slip she wouldn't get far without help. But she had help. Once she tagged up with Daario and Jorah, what was stopping them from escaping back the way they came? Again, it's a city without walls. If Daario and Jorah had been captured or something, it would have made more sense for Dany to take her safety into her own hands. But as it was, there was really no reason to lock herself in with the Khals instead. It comes off more that she needs to replace her felled Unsullied and bloodriders with a new set of worshipers soldiers and saw a show of power as the most efficient way to do so. Because really, that's frequently her move. It helps that the people she comes up against are generally despicable in a way most of the Westerosi aren't, but when she promised that her enemies would die screaming, she's made good on that promise every time--sometimes needlessly so.

And if she's planning on executing every murderer, every slaver, every rapist...well, Daario's a murderer. Jorah's a former slaver (who still hasn't repented of his actions as far as I remember). Drogo was definitely a rapist, and he's the only one of her inner circle Dany has killed, reluctantly and for reasons unrelated to his actions. She still hasn't breathed a word of regret that Hizdahr died saving her after she Stockholmed him into submission, and I predict that she won't, because she's Daenerys Stormborn, the Unburnt, Mother of Dragons, Liberator of Slaver's Bay...

And it would be different, perhaps, if the show didn't insist on comparing and contrasting her with Jon. Jon is also up against a cartoonishly evil villain, but as stated he rejects the labels and the worship and the adoration. His demeanor is humble and requesting, rather than entitled and conquering. I will rethink my opinion of her the moment she mentions Hizdahr's name in thanks for what he did to save her. But I'm almost certain I won't need to.

[Cheerwyn]

I don't think this has been brought up yet...

Did anyone else think that the letter to Jon was sent by Littlefinger posing as Ramsey?  Earlier in the episode, he manages to get the Knights of the Vale to march North.  Getting the Jon and the Night's Watch to come a'running to Sansa in Winterfell would also play into his plot.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Cheerwyn

[Sakura12]

I love Tormund's version of flirting is to eat his meat like an animal and stare at Brianne while he's doing it. Edd's reaction was also amazing. 

Dario 2.0's "oh shit" reaction to Dany being more than a Queen with a million and one titles. He now understands why Jorah will follow her until his dying breath. I can't wait to see Tyrion's face when Dany rides up to Meereen with all the Khalsar's at her side. 

[Maximum Taco]

Just now, Cheerwyn said:

I don't think this has been brought up yet...

Did anyone else think that the letter to Jon was sent by Littlefinger posing as Ramsey?  Earlier in the episode, he manages to get the Knights of the Vale to march North.  Getting the Jon and the Night's Watch to come a'running would also play into his plot.

I don't think so.

How would Littlefinger even know that Ramsay has Rickon?

[jellysalmon]

10 hours ago, J----av said:

Then you are probably bias. Ramsay has been "struggling a bit" (losing Reek, Miranda and Sansa, having his dad shit on him all the time, growing up a bastard), but he always comes out on top just like Dany and Brienne. When Ramsay concurs cities in 5 min, takes two armies (like 108,000 men) in 10 min and walks out of two fires and has pet dragons, then maybe his superness can be compaired to Dany's. Dany is seen as a good person though so of course people won't hate on how poorly she can be written as much as bad guy Ramsay 

*biased

I mean if we're going to nitpick character setbacks,  let's nitpick character setbacks. 

Dany: Killed her mother during childbirth, exiled for most of her life, forcibly married/raped, lost her husband, lost her posse, lost her dragons (lol), lost her queensguard, had to exile her bodyguard because he's a creep, lost her dragon again, gets placed at Club Med Dothraki.

Brienne: Loses Renly, loses Catelyn, almost raped by mercs, almost killed by bear, lets Arya get away, lets Sansa get away.

Also, if you think that Reek/Miranda mean anything to Ramsay, 

 

Ok but really, I kinda agree that Dany gets too many lucky rolls, but just because she has "rollover the competition" story arcs doesn't mean Ramsay's are any less frustrating to watch.

Edited May 16, 2016 by jellysalmon

[kittykat]

The show-Pink letter had the flayed man on the seal.  Unless LF has spare sigil seals, that was all Ramsay.

YASSSSS I got my JWW lesson!

I'm glad they're starting to close ranks here.  So many characters in one spot, haven't had this few locations since S1.  Now we just need Arya back.

[Ambrosefolly]

2 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

Dothraki land - 

Women power at its finest. No, she doesn't want to be rescued (or your number or to meet you nowhere or none of your time). Well, okay, so Jorah and Daario aren't scrubs, but Mama of Dragons is going to get shit done. HER way.

"You're not going to serve, you're going to die." Yes, honey, burn those motherfuckers down.

Walking away from the flames, stark naked and oh-so-powerful and triumphant in her nakedness, while everyone outside bows before her like the Khaleesi she is.

Yep, "Women power." Unlike those losers that use "Man Power" like Mance Rayder that spent 20 years subduing, negotiating and uniting the Wildings to get them to safety on the other side of the Wall, Jon that had to serve the previous Lord Commander as a steward, lead  a band of Crows to avenge the old man and was one of the leaders for the Battle for Castle Black. Or Tyrion and Varys, that often tried to outmaneuver their rivals. Heck, Brienne of Tarth (learning sword play), Shireen (studying books) and Arya (actually training in...something), made use of "Man Power", which is probably why it is  the word is given to actual physical work.  

"Women Power": that lovely mixture of entitlement and being God's pet. Too bad Shireen didn't think to be born fire proof, she seemed smarter and more intellectual curious than Dany.

[Bannon]

Strategically, what was most important in last night's episode was that Dany has apparently gained the unfiltered allegiance of all the Dothraki. If this is the case, up to being willing to use ships to transport themselves and their horses, and being willing to adhere to Dany's long term goals, Dany no longer has significant military or political obstacles in any place with open terrain, where it is still warm enough for grass to grow. An army which has truly mastered the technology of the horse, able to accurately use the bow and arrown from the back of a horse, can pretty reliably defeat any army, in open terrain with grass, that has not as fully mastered the tehnology of the horse, absent very advanced firearm technology. Hell, the U.S. Army, equipped with cannon, never defeated the Commanche Nation in open battle, until repeating firearms were mass produced. The fiefdoms of southern Westeros could hole up in their fortifications, and hope the Dothraki lack the patience for siege warfare, but their armies would have no chance in open battle against an enemy which were truly adept with projectiles, while on a horse at full gallop.  

It's nice to get a little of the political context of Slaver's Bay.

I really dislike the way that Rickon was plopped down in Ramsay's lap, to heighten the conflict in the North. I know the writers are dealing with severe time constraints, but, good grief, is that ever contrived. Ugh.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Bannon

[Boilergal]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Making the character into a hypocrite would be the laziest course the writers could take with the High Sparrow.

I don't know, it's pretty gratifying when one of the MegaChurch preacher's gets caught with his hand in a cookie jar.  I love to see the overly righteous get taken down a peg or three and the High Sparrow certainly needs to be taken down at least four pegs.

[Tikichick]

The High Sparrow could be in fact playing his own game for the throne.

Even if Dany were able to flee the city without walls and had accomplices to help her, how far is she going to get before hordes of Dothraki, on horseback, catch up with her?  It's not as if her absence for a trip to the loo would go unnoticed for long.  Her fate upon recapture would no doubt be even worse.  If she wasn't going to live under the rule of others forever she had to finish her captors.   Same rules they live by.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Game Of Thrones Starts All The Wars

How many soldiers do you have? You're going to need more.

[fallaway]

"Cersei and Jamie walking into the small council meeting felt like the lead-up to a plot to me.  It's not a coincidence IMO that the Tyrells will be both footing the bill for and taking all of the risk in an attempt to eliminate the High Sparrow and his followers -- unless you count Uncle Kevan possibly losing his precious son that is. "

Exactly. Tommen told Cersei that they need to back off the Sparrow, or things will be bad. So - if she gets the Tyrells to attack to FM, things go bad and they probably kill Margaery and Loras - WIN! And it's the Tyrell army that suffers casualties and the blame for their deaths and attacking the FM - WIN, WIN! Lannisters come out ahead and smelling like roses. Oh, Tommen, that's not what you'd want? Too bad, so sad. You knew your mother didn't like Margaery. You were nowhere to be found when your parents talked to the small council, and probably have no idea about it at all, do you? But someone might take revenge for the action against the FM and/or the Tyrells, by killing you. Oooh, Cersei, so sad. Too bad. Gold will be their shrouds.

"Still waiting for Jaime to wake up and smell the coffee, but I do think it's coming."

Probably after yet another of his children with Cersei is murdered. 3/4 (so far) is bad.

I tried to get the quotes working, I really tried. Shame! Shame!

Edited May 16, 2016 by fallaway

[Raachel2008]

Quote

Meanwhile, this episode also confirms for me that Dany's going to end up as much of a villain as the White Walkers. Contrast Jon's denial last episode that he was a god and his only reluctantly wanting to go to war with Dany in this episode walking out of a fire she set to kill her enemies, basking as people fell down to worship her as a god and clearly intending to use her new worshipers as an army of conquest.

I don't see her as villain, not all. The worshipping is nothing new, really, just think about her first time among the Dothraki, the Unsullied, being a  "mhysa": there were always a worshipping element in her leader persona.  Maybe they are hitting at  something along the lines of "power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely", but she is no Jofrey or Ramsay or even Cersei. And  it is not fair to compare Danaerys and Jon: different backgrounds, different experiences, apples and oranges and all that.

[polyhymnia]

3 hours ago, Alapaki said:

I think, for me, part of the problem with Mereen is that TPTB highlighted the big elephant in the room (so to speak) with the dragons-in-the-basement too early in the season.

For as dramatic as that scene was (and I'm sure was supposed to be), we're left with a big old "Aaaaannnnnnddddddddd?"  What?  The dragons are unchained.  But, they're still in the basement, right?  So what's the point?  Are they going to grow bigger now that they can stretch their wings in the basement?  Is Tyrion busy having a door big enough to let them out dug into the wall?  If they're getting stronger, isn't there a legitimate concern that they'll start trying to claw their own door?  And, if they do, given that they're in the base of the pyramid, isn't there a concern that they might damage the structural integrity of the entire structure?  

And these aren't just Seinfeld-ian observations.  Obviously the possession of dragons is Dany's (and by extension Varys' and Tyrion's) only bargaining chip.  But, presumably, no one in Mereen has seen any of the dragons in some time.  

I'm just questioning the inclusion of that unchaining scene so far apart from any focus on the consequences of that action.

Same here - I am distracted during the Meereen scenes wondering what the heck those two are up to (the dragons, not Varys and Tyrion) and if they are going to become relevant to the plot again.  Who is feeding them?  What are they being fed?  Can they even fit up the stairs anymore?  Etc.

I wonder if the first part of Dany's plot (after she got Jorah and Daario to release the youngish Khaleesi) was to have them spread around some form of Essos accelerant in the Khal meeting hut.

 

ETA:  I think Jonathan Pryce is playing the HS as a true believer - the worst kind of zealot.  He thinks because he had some sort of ridiculous hangover induced epiphany, everyone else should also have this opportunity and by sword point and torture if they don't want it for themselves.  He knows what is best for you!!  I thought the back story was a little stupid and unnecessary but Pryce is playing him well.

Edited May 16, 2016 by polyhymnia

[stillshimpy]

Can't quote at the moment, so Digital Count, part of the point of killing the Kahls wasn't just to escape, but also to gain their manpower. But beyond that, no she really couldn't have simply slipped off into the night. The Kahlasar are all skilled riders and could find them fairly easily, in part because they would have a fifteen minute head start at most -- the amount of time it would take the crones to figure out Dany wasn't peeing or any other bodily function and raise an alarm -- and they wouldn't even have time to get back to their horses and weapons. 

 

But it mostly she was kidnapped by the horde and probably figured the Kahlasar would come in handy when she has to kill the hell out of the sons of the Harpy. Again though, great way to avoid having a pissed off woman not flambé them? Tell her she can go. Not kidnap her in the first place? Not treat her like property? 

 

Really not not troubled by their deaths in the slightest under the "mother fuckers brought it on themselves" defense.

Edited May 16, 2016 by stillshimpy

[MrWhyt]

3 hours ago, FemmyV said:

It has to do with a certain amount of plotting. Jon has lucked onto a lot stuff. Ramsey, otoh, calculates it all, BUT .. many times with his victims, when he gets a win, it's written as being because HE'S SO MUCH SMARTER than his enemies. He wasted Stannis' army because he's a super-smart villian; he got a woman to join him in the dog kennels, MINUTES after giving birth, he managed to knife one of the genuinely smartest, most treacherous Lords on the show because Daddy never imagined his son the psychopath might have a problem with losing his newly-gained power.

In Season 1, I loved GoT because the antagonists — Cersei, Jamie, Littlefinger, et al, — were all smart enough that their victims didn't have to be dumbed down.

He defeated Stannis by having more men than him. Numerical superiority is not out of the box thinking.

[Advance35]

Quote

"Women Power": that lovely mixture of entitlement and being God's pet. Too bad Shireen didn't think to be born fire proof, she seemed smarter and more intellectual curious than Dany.

 Unimpressed by Dany as well.  The minute I saw all the Khals assembled, I crossed my fingers that there was knife thrower in the pack that had good aim and could take this "Mother of Dragons" with them into the great beyond but......sigh.  No such luck.  My eyes are going to roll so hard if this chick sits on the Iron Throne.   The Mary Sue of Mary Sue's.  Sigh.

[qtpye]

22 minutes ago, fallaway said:

"Cersei and Jamie walking into the small council meeting felt like the lead-up to a plot to me.  It's not a coincidence IMO that the Tyrells will be both footing the bill for and taking all of the risk in an attempt to eliminate the High Sparrow and his followers -- unless you count Uncle Kevan possibly losing his precious son that is. "

Cersei would love this.  If Lancel ever spoke of his affair to Jamie, the incest wonder twins are done.

Jamie understands Cersei is a horrible person, but firmly believes that she loves him and their children.  He does not realize that she armed the religious crazies just to spite Margery and cheated with Lancel.

I will love to see his face when he realizes that he has wasted his life, not by King or Kin slaying, but by devoting himself to her.

[Chairman Meow]

13 hours ago, Minneapple said:

 

Welp. I am now shipping Brienne/Tormund. What's the ship name? Someone write me a fic.

 

There's a least one on Ao3 already.  After last night, I'm hoping for more.

[Ariah]

13 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Jamie understands Cersei is a horrible person, but firmly believes that she loves him and their children.  He does not realize that she armed the religious crazies just to spite Margery and cheated with Lancel.

I will love to see his face when he realizes that he has wasted his life, not by King or Kin slaying, but by devoting himself to her.

I'm waiting for this to happen because frankly, Nikolaj is too good an actor to be wasted in the background of Kings' Landing, running after Cersei.

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Boilergal said:

I don't know, it's pretty gratifying when one of the MegaChurch preacher's gets caught with his hand in a cookie jar.  I love to see the overly righteous get taken down a peg or three and the High Sparrow certainly needs to be taken down at least four pegs.

IIRC, they already did that on the show, didn't they? Didn't the last High Septon get caught with prostitutes and humiliated? I agree with SeanC that making the High Sparrow another villain of the same stripe would be lazy and repetitive. Just as good writing demands that each hero protagonist be individually different in a recognizably human way, the same goes for the villains. I'd say there's room in the plot for a villain sincerely convinced he's doing the right thing while working evil - especially now that self-righteous Stannis is dead.

Edited May 16, 2016 by screamin

[qtpye]

16 minutes ago, Ariah said:

I'm waiting for this to happen because frankly, Nikolaj is too good an actor to be wasted in the background of Kings' Landing, running after Cersei.

I agree.  Jamie has done some horrible things, but blindly supporting his sister is making him look like an uninteresting idiot.  It's like his character development has not only stalled, but actually gone back a couple of paces, and it is a waste of the actor's talent.

[Constantinople]

Quote

Tyrion: As a clever man once told me "We make peace with our enemies, not our friends."

Echoing Littlefinger's words in the first episode of the season in which Littlefinger appeared was a nice callback to Season 1 after Robert named Ned as regent.

Quote

Ned: Make peace with the Lannisters, you say... With the people who tried to murder my boy.

Littlefinger: We only make peace with our enemies, My Lord. That's why it's called "making peace."

Edited May 16, 2016 by Constantinople

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Making the character into a hypocrite would be the laziest course the writers could take with the High Sparrow.

The High Septon already is a hypocrite. He claims to be doing righteous things, goes on about the goodness of the Seven, and preaches against sinning against the gods yet we've all seen that he's running a torture chamber that's targeting people who don't fit his ideal profile. He knows perfectly well that Septa Ratched is torturing people and actually seems amused by it on some level. Margaery is being taken to task by him for circumstances that were beyond her control. He doesn't like that she wears pretty clothes and is rich. She's talking about personal relationships and how she wants to be reunited with family and he interprets that as her simply wanting to get back to a luxurious lifestyle. 

Loras is being tortured and imprisoned because he was a single guy having sex with another single guy. 

Margaery, Loras, and Cersei aren't the High Sparrows only victims. We saw what they were doing to people working in the brothels (as well as the patrons) so this isn't just about tearing down the aristocracy. He also has a prudish agenda where he wants to control the details of people's personal lives because they don't square with the religion he believes is the right one. I also find it hard if not impossible to believe that the High Sparrow would want to help a poor person of a different Faith.

The High Sparrow isn't making King's Landing a better place for the common people at all. It's sucks for common people and aristocrats alike right now. At least the Tyrells are (were?) bringing food into the city which is more than he was doing. The High Sparrow could be working with the aristocrats now that he has their attention but instead he seems like he simply wants to pull everything down and have everyone be barefoot and reading the Book of the Seven as though that will somehow make for a better world.

I definitely think that the High Sparrow is interested in power and see his treatment of Lancel as proof of that. Of course Lancel isn't expected to have a walk of atonement even though he has a long list of sins. Lancel got a clean slate and I think it's because he is useful to the High Sparrow and became one of his servants. Lancel gets big old pass when it comes to having to fully atone in the way that the High Sparrow expects Cersei, Margaery, Loras, and others to. 

I can't see how what's happening to Margaery and Loras is at all right or what any 'good' and decent gods would consider to be just. 

[Sakura12]

Is Margaery only in the prison because she lied to protect her brother? 

[SeanC]

8 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

I definitely think that the High Sparrow is interested in power and see his treatment of Lancel as proof of that. Of course Lancel isn't expected to have a walk of atonement even though he has a long list of sins. Lancel got a clean slate and I think it's because he is useful to the High Sparrow and became one of his servants. Lancel gets big old pass when it comes to having to fully atone in the way that the High Sparrow expects Cersei, Margaery, Loras, and others to. 

Lancel voluntarily confessed all his sins.  It's not really unusual for religions to make a distinction between people who come freely and people who confess under various forms of compulsion; indeed, our modern justice system does that too.

As far as we know, the Faith's practices are internally consistent; this is an era where judicial torture is a thing, and many religions have at various points in history accepted such actions too.  My point is that I'd rather we not have the High Sparrow as somebody who's secretly doing all the stuff he claims to be preaching against.  The man is a zealot, and is clearly comfortable with violence to enforce his views (though this does not make him any different than the nobles, and as of right now his body count is far lower than any of the people he's fighting against), but making him a hypocrite would just feel cheap to me, like the writers don't want to let his ideas stand or fall on their own merits.`

[benteen]

16 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I agree.  Jamie has done some horrible things, but blindly supporting his sister is making him look like an uninteresting idiot.  It's like his character development has not only stalled, but actually gone back a couple of paces, and it is a waste of the actor's talent.

It's been a bad season for his character so far...off another bad season or two of character development.  NCW has been great throughout the show's run but only Season 1 and 3 seemed to really get him as a character.

[Tikichick]

I don't really think we can view attitudes on the show in terms of modern civilization and society and assume that all "good and righteous" viewpoints should align with what people living in our day and age view as the right side of history and anyone who believes differently is therefore villainous.      

[Knuckles]

I loathe religious fanatics, especially those who use the downtrodden mob for their own ends. The Sparrow is on a power grab, driven by resentment and envy. He has no sword, so he uses religion as his weapon, but as soon as he got Cersei's permission, his true believers were heavily armed. He also has a predilection for punishing high-born women and gay men (Loras) in sexually humiliating ways. That is no accident. It plays to the worst instincts of the mob and undoubtedly is satisfying for him. The boy king is a weakling, and the Tyrells and Lannisters are riven with antagonism. It won't take much for the Sparrow to grab even more power. At this point take him down any way you can...as even Cersei can see, he has no plans for a better future for the poor folks, he only sees them as useful to his scheme.

And as the Khals were promising Dany that they would gang rape her to death, I see no problem with them being burned to a crisp. Clearly it would not be their first murderous gang rape, as they clearly saw it as a sport and a pastime, so for all those nameless victims, I applaud Dany for delivering justice. And, it was a supremely practical move...the Dothraki follow strength, as Jorah noted, and Dany is now visibly the strongest among them. She needs a strong calvary to supplement her unsullied to take out the Sons of the Harpy and put paid to the slavers of Astaphor and Yunkai as well. I remain puzzled by posters who are concerned about rapists and slavers...seriously, let them burn.

[MarySNJ]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

Daenerys Targaryen, the First of Her Name, Queen of Meereen, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, the Unburnt, Mother of Dragons, Queen of the MOTHERFUCKIN' MIC DROP FOR ALL ETERNITY

Twice Unburnt! Awesome scene. 

In fact I loved almost the whole episode. Sisters are doin' it for themselves! 

[kittykat]

Yeah.  Great episode for Westeros ladies (not so fast Osha).  Cersei and Olenna taking charge and forming a very tenuous truce, Margaery only pretending to drink the Sparrow Kool aid, Super Sansa, Brienne all "yeah I killed him how you like me now", Dany and her now presumably Khaleesi bloodriders.  Get at em girls.

ETA: and Yara!  Though if the kingsmoot plays out in the books it's gonna be a disappointing outcome for her and Theon.

Edited May 16, 2016 by kittykat

[MarySNJ]

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

Making the character into a hypocrite would be the laziest course the writers could take with the High Sparrow.

I think it's just a matter of the High Sparrow becoming drunk on his own power while sticking it to all the high and mighty.  His brand of "justice" is really trading one form of tyranny for another. What's he going to do if/when he manages to destroy the current power structure? Religious dictatorships are just as bad as "secular" ones. 

[Tikichick]

Just now, MarySNJ said:

I think it's just a matter of the High Sparrow becoming drunk on his own power while sticking it to all the high and mighty.  His brand of "justice" is really trading one form of tyranny for another. What's he going to do if/when he manages to destroy the current power structure? Religious dictatorships are just as bad as "secular" ones. 

Just another case of absolute power corrupting absolutely.  In some ways Robert Baratheon was this way.  Common phenomenon.

[Iamsweetdee]

8 minutes ago, Knuckles said:

I loathe religious fanatics, especially those who use the downtrodden mob for their own ends. <snip>

And as the Khals were promising Dany that they would gang rape her to death, I see no problem with them being burned to a crisp. Clearly it would not be their first murderous gang rape, as they clearly saw it as a sport and a pastime, so for all those nameless victims, I applaud Dany for delivering justice. And, it was a supremely practical move...the Dothraki follow strength, as Jorah noted, and Dany is now visibly the strongest among them. She needs a strong calvary to supplement her unsullied to take out the Sons of the Harpy and put paid to the slavers of Astaphor and Yunkai as well. I remain puzzled by posters who are concerned about rapists and slavers...seriously, let them burn.

Emphasis mine.

My issue with Dany isn't her burning up a bunch of rapists. Nope, my issue is that it isn't about them being rapists. Dany wants their people to fight and die FOR HER. In this respect, she embodies the first sentence quoted.  Now, she might not be a traditional religious fanatic, but she is still using the downtrodden for her own ends. And, it's not like they are doing it out of loyalty, they are terrified. She could kill them too. I wish I could say that Dany gives two fucks about the Unsullied, etc., but she doesn't, outside of their ability to fight for her. So, no, I'm not going to wrap up what she did as "girl power" and all of that other stuff because I know she doesn't see the Dothroki as anything other than weapons for her use. Convince me she sees them as people (and I'm not even going to get into the whiter than white chick saving the dumb brown savages from themselves).

[huahaha]

25 minutes ago, Knuckles said:

I remain puzzled by posters who are concerned about rapists and slavers...seriously, let them burn.

I'm not at all concerned about rapists and slavers. But this was not vigilante justice or even self-defense. It was a power grab that involved burning people alive. Is the appropriate punishment for their crimes (which are not crimes in their society) burning? The problem isn't so much what she did as why.

8 minutes ago, Iamsweetdee said:

So, no, I'm not going to wrap up what she did as "girl power" and all of that other stuff because I know she doesn't see the Dothroki as anything other than weapons for her use.

Yes. The Dothraki have a new warlord. 

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, Iamsweetdee said:

Emphasis mine.

My issue with Dany isn't her burning up a bunch of rapists. Nope, my issue is that it isn't about them being rapists. Dany wants their people to fight and die FOR HER. In this respect, she embodies the first sentence quoted.  Now, she might not be a traditional religious fanatic, but she is still using the downtrodden for her own ends. And, it's not like they are doing it out of loyalty, they are terrified. She could kill them too. I wish I could say that Dany gives two fucks about the Unsullied, etc., but she doesn't, outside of their ability to fight for her. So, no, I'm not going to wrap up what she did as "girl power" and all of that other stuff because I know she doesn't see the Dothroki as anything other than weapons for her use. Convince me she sees them as people (and I'm not even going to get into the whiter than white chick saving the dumb brown savages from themselves).

But I think she has made efforts to make peoples' lives better.  Remember, she lives in a time and civilization that more often than not lives with the expectation that they are to be ruled.  Her upbringing has taught her she was born to rule.  It's to her credit that she tries to give a measure of respect and decency to those she rules.  

I don't think the color of her skin is meant to communicate anything.  The residents of Flea Bottom don't seem to benefit from their pasty complexions.  Seems a stretch to try to drag that idea into the show and shoehorn it in.

[Tikichick]

Seasons ago Dani was expecting Drogo's khalasar to follow and fight for her.  This time she was prisoner of the khals who came upon her with their khalasar and took her prisoner.  They died because they intended to keep her prisoner, or worse, not because she came to them looking to usurp their khalasars for her purposes.

[tennisgurl]

You know, I am pretty sure Dany is crazy, but she is at least a crazy I like watching. And most of the people she has brutally killed for power are pretty awful people. I will, however, be interested in seeing what would happen if she has to prove her ultimate badass power against sympathetic characters. She moral superiority might come off different in a situation with actual moral grayness, not just fighting slavers and rapists. 

The whole rest of the episode could have been crap, but we had the Sansa and Jon hug and reunion, and that made this whole season worth it. My heart! It has been warmed so much! All their scenes were wonderful, and the actors play off each other so well. They smiled! Jon and Sansa smiled! And they are going to kick the shit out of Super Ramsey! Life is good!

Speaking of...super pissed about Osha. On the one hand, at least we didn't have to sit through her being raped or flayed or eaten by dogs, like I was afraid of, but what a lame way to end a good character who has been here since season one. Another character sacrificed to the altar of Super Ramsey.  

[screamin]

53 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

The High Sparrow isn't making King's Landing a better place for the common people at all. It's sucks for common people and aristocrats alike right now.

I don't think we can say that the High Sparrow is NOT helping the poor. He's High Septon - the Pope, essentially. He gets a tithe from aristocrats, and since he's made a point of vows of poverty and selling off the Sept's rich trappings for the poor, he has a lot of means of supporting the poor - his supporters.

And it sucks for aristocrats and common people alike now? I don't think so. If you just look at the aristocrats and compare them to the common people, you'd still see a significant difference. Yeah, Cersei was made to walk naked through the streets and mocked, but now she's wearing her expensive clothes again, eating her rich food, ordering her soldiers around (all paid for with taxes on the smallfolk, mind) and right now she's plotting a civil war right in King's Landing that will slaughter a whole lot of bystanders. Meantime the smallfolk are still poor, taxed, and that poor bastard in the tavern got brained the other night for daring to talk trash about Cersei. Is SHE and the likes of her in any such danger?

Cersei and the Tyrells are planning to bring their army in - an army largely made up of peasants taken from farm work while their families go hungry - and cause a war in King's Landing that will inevitably slaughter other smallfolk - many of whom will just be unlucky people caught in the crossfire. They will do this while they sit safely in the Red Keep and watch. If I were one of the smallfolk of King's Landing, odds are that I'd have at least one member of my family (if not several) caught up in the war and killed by being drafted into the army, or burned off their land and starved, or slain by marauders, all for the interests of the high and mighty whose quarrels have nothing to do with me.

I could see why in that case they'd be attracted to the High Sparrow's cause - though I do agree he is a villain, and I think his ultimate end will be to overreach himself and fall trying to reach for more power to misuse more and more while telling himself it's the gods' will.

[Tikichick]

6 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

You know, I am pretty sure Dany is crazy, but she is at least a crazy I like watching. And most of the people she has brutally killed for power are pretty awful people. I will, however, be interested in seeing what would happen if she has to prove her ultimate badass power against sympathetic characters. She moral superiority might come off different in a situation with actual moral grayness, not just fighting slavers and rapists. 

The whole rest of the episode could have been crap, but we had the Sansa and Jon hug and reunion, and that made this whole season worth it. My heart! It has been warmed so much! All their scenes were wonderful, and the actors play off each other so well. They smiled! Jon and Sansa smiled! And they are going to kick the shit out of Super Ramsey! Life is good!

Speaking of...super pissed about Osha. On the one hand, at least we didn't have to sit through her being raped or flayed or eaten by dogs, like I was afraid of, but what a lame way to end a good character who has been here since season one. Another character sacrificed to the altar of Super Ramsey.  

That's what will be telling.  If Dany ever gets the chance to really rule with authority for any length of time, will it corrupt her to the point she's driven to paranoia and madness as it did her father?

[WindyNights]

That was a really bad ending because Dany's plan relied on a lot of contrivances 

[Tikichick]

4 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

That was a really bad ending because Dany's plan relied on a lot of contrivances 

I think we may get that feeling about a lot of things because the producers and writers have to streamline in order to do an adaptation within time constraints to get players from point A to Z.

[Gertrude]

30 minutes ago, huahaha said:

I'm not at all concerned about rapists and slavers. But this was not vigilante justice or even self-defense. It was a power grab that involved burning people alive. Is the appropriate punishment for their crimes (which are not crimes in their society) burning? The problem isn't so much what she did as why.

Yes. The Dothraki have a new warlord. 

I can't deny that Dany is a warlord. I do think that part of her reason for tearing down the Dothraki culture is what motivates her in Slaver's Bay - dismantling slavery. Not her only reason, but she has always considered herself akin to a slave being sold to Drogo and then seeing first-hand the situation of the Dosh Kahleen. Not to mention that the Dothraki are slavers themselves. Maybe this is me projecting more onto her than the show is putting out there, or maybe it will be addressed later, but I really do think this is at least part of her thinking process.

[huahaha]

28 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Seasons ago Dani was expecting Drogo's khalasar to follow and fight for her.  This time she was prisoner of the khals who came upon her with their khalasar and took her prisoner.  They died because they intended to keep her prisoner, or worse, not because she came to them looking to usurp their khalasars for her purposes.

If that's true, she'll walk away, not expect the Dothraki to set aside their traditions and homes and follow her into war.

[Tikichick]

Just now, huahaha said:

If that's true, she'll walk away, not expect the Dothraki to set aside their traditions and homes and follow her into war.

What if they want to follow her because they see her as their rightful ruler?  If that's what they choose for themselves, should she absolutely refuse them?

[huahaha]

4 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

What if they want to follow her because they see her as their rightful ruler?  If that's what they choose for themselves, should she absolutely refuse them?

I'm sure that's what will happen. It just doesn't look like a surprise side benefit of Dany's escape -- it's the whole plan.