S06.E02: Home

[Oscirus]

With Ramsey and Roose, I think it was a case of which one killed the other one first. Roose basically called Ramsey a wild dog that had to be put down. He was just too slow on the draw.

I think the show went out of its way to dispel the Tyrion is a targ theory by showing that there's a way to talk to the dragons if you're brave enough to do it.

[Eyes High]

Did TV Ned ever mention that Arya looks like Lyanna? They didn't seem to be casting for a resemblance between young Lyanna and Arya. If anything, the actress they cast looked more like a female version of Bran.

If R+L=J is going to be a thing, I would have thought that TV Lyanna would have TV Jon's hair, just to cement the visual connection. As it is, her hair was light brown, almost sandy blonde at the ends.

[Tikichick]

5 hours ago, anyanka323 said:

That would be a fitting end for Ramsay with his preferred method of using his dogs to either dispose of bodies or kill people.  I may be mistaken, but I don't think the show showed Grey Wind attacking people, only described it in dialogue. 

I think odds are slim Sansa reaches the Wall and it's likely she winds up back at Winterfell.  Just as she's reunited with Ramsey would be perfect timing IMO for Nymeria to emerge from her travels and pop in on the old homestead. 

[sacrebleu]

Did anyone else go to the MST3K "Space Mutiny" place at the end of this epi? "...and then his eyes open.... and then his eyes open..."

That said, hooray for undead Snow. 

The one thing I can't help thinking after this episode is, Is there a death brutal enough for Ramsay that would satisfy the audience?" Mental and physical torture, rape, patricide, fratricide-- he really is the worst person in Westeros.

[benteen]

The most important question...now that is seems unlikely that we'll see Victarion Greyjoy on this show, who will sail the Dothraki Sea?

I admit I didn't see the sideburns on the actor playing young Ser Rodrik so I kept wondering why Bran didn't say "and that's my Uncle Brandon."

[Tikichick]

5 hours ago, wallflower75 said:

First time in this forum, hope you don't mind me joining in.  With regards to Walder Frey breaking his alliance with the Boltons because Ramsay killed his daughter and grandson--I don't know that I see it playing out that way.  But I may be seeing it that way because of the book--Walder has so many descendants, legitimate and otherwise, that I don't know that Walda's loss will impact him as much as we'd like to think it would.

I have a question that doesn't have much to do with this episode, but with the storyline overall...refresh my memory, but when she married Ramsay, was the issue of Sansa's marriage to Tyrion addressed on this show?  I realize that we're not dealing with a society that would necessarily reject any Sansa/Ramsay offspring (pause for a shudder) for being illegitimate, but unless bigamy is legal in Westeros, or unless her marriage was considered null and void because Tyrion was convicted of killing Joffrey, Sansa's still married to Tyrion in the eyes of both the gods and men.

The loss of Walda and baby will only bother Walder as far as baby's potential claim as Lord of Winterfell and Protector of the North, if that is correctly Roose's title at time of death.  Of course being a babe titles, power and wealth would have been "rightfully" placed in control of Walder in his opinion.

[huahaha]

I can't put my finger on why this episode (and the last one) didn't excite me more. Big things happened! But still, I feel meh. Ramsey can basically never top himself (at least, I hope not). Dany can't rebirth dragons. Cersei and Jamie aren't even salacious anymore. Most of the characters with real gravitas (Ned, Tywin, Olenna, the Hound, others, now Roose) are gone or off-screen. Jon's resurrection had no flair.

Either the showrunners really need the richness of the books to pull from, or the show has lost too many great actors.

[Conan Troutman]

6 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I think odds are slim Sansa reaches the Wall and it's likely she winds up back at Winterfell.  Just as she's reunited with Ramsey would be perfect timing IMO for Nymeria to emerge from her travels and pop in on the old homestead. 

In one of the trailers,

Spoiler

we saw someone with a dress that looked just like Sansa's riding next besides Mel (with possibly Jon behind them). Granted, that could have been a similar dress worn by someone else, but since we don't even have any other women at the Wall other than Mel right now, it kind of has to be Sansa. 

[VCRTracking]

Had the opposite reaction and thought it was great.

I can't wait to see more of Bran's visions into the past.

I loved Melisandre's soft and despearate "Please!" as it seems her resurrection ritual wasn't working.

Edited May 2, 2016 by VCRTracking

[jeansheridan]

14 hours ago, MadMouse said:

Davos is all aboard the Mel train? I guess he's desperate and its not like she burned a child he loved like his own or anything. Tormund throwing daggers at Thorne, could have used a Har in there. Loved the the random NW got the Ser Patrick treatment. Oh and that Jon guy came back.

But how could he know?  She hasn't told him and nobody else from Stannis' army is there.  Do they even know Stannis is dead other than Mel looking distraught? 

[Tikichick]

I wonder how much Bran's story will have changed for TV purposes?  It definitely seems his book storyline would have been incredibly difficult to hold onscreen interest for long, much as the complaints are about Arya's quest to become a faceless man.

[jeansheridan]

13 hours ago, Winnief said:

Good catch.

 

Still not as ridiculous as finding Dany's ring, or LF's infamous teleporter though.

I thought finding the ring was implausible at first, but when you see the crushed grass around a relatively small circle and Jorah is staring at the ground in most of the scene, looking, just looking.  While Daario is teasing him and looking dashing, Jorah is doing his tracking job. 

So I give the actor props for selling that implausible find.  And the set design. 

[proserpina65]

Quote

Jon's resurrection had no flair.

I was glad it didn't.  I liked the subtlety and quietness of it far more than I would have anything more dramatic.

[kittykat]

Quote

It seemed like they let the Iron Born go and then they were brought back.  I assume Euron/House Greyjoy will be heavily involved in one of the big events within the last few books.   They have always bored me though.  Vicatron or whatever his name is and even Asha, I find all of their chapters hard to get through. 

I think it was a matter of pacing.  Too many storylines being fleshed out in seasons 4 and 5 that they figured the Kingsmoot and the other Greyjoy brothers could be pushed back to when other stories fused together.  Technically Balon was supposed to die before Robb and Joffrey but prolonging that event didn't change anything for the worse.  And it pretty much played out like the books with the Ironborn on both sides wondering if fell or was pushed.  I remember when reading AFFC when they focused so much on the Greyjoys and the Martells that it was disconcerting because of the previous three books so they figured instead of introducing both in one season that they spaced them out.

I'm actually ok with this because with Theon now returning and just having missed his father dying, it should be some interesting development.  I won't mind if they have eliminated Victarion, I was never a fan.

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

In the books at least some of the Karstarks were allied with the Boltons, along with some of the Umbers, and the Manderleys were pretending to go along as well.

Right.  Manderley's main concern was that he didn't want to betray the Boltons until there was proof that a male Stark heir was alive.  Presumedly Rickon is at Last Hearth (Umber seat) as instructed back in S3.  Perhaps the Manderley and Umber are secretly in cahoots and waiting for the right moment to strike.  Since they have eliminated the Rickon at Skagos plot point, they can move quicker.

Not to mention that there was a throwaway line in early S5 about Ramsay extinguishing House Cerwyn because of their opposition to Bolton rule so they're trying to be very discreet.  My point being that Ramsey shouldn't be so quick to assume that Houses Manderley and Umber are going to continue their loyalty.  Hopefully they're just setting this all up for the pending Bastard Bowl.

And to those that were discussing Sansa's role in "The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword."  Ice was melted down into two swords.  One of those is Oathkeeper, Brienne's sword!  Which means Sansa, or whichever Stark, could technically carry out the sentence with the STARK FAMILY SWORD!!! I LOVE THIS SHOW!

[forum4idiots]

14 minutes ago, huahaha said:

I can't put my finger on why this episode (and the last one) didn't excite me more. Big things happened! But still, I feel meh. Ramsey can basically never top himself (at least, I hope not). Dany can't rebirth dragons. Cersei and Jamie aren't even salacious anymore. Most of the characters with real gravitas (Ned, Tywin, Olenna, the Hound, others, now Roose) are gone or off-screen. Jon's resurrection had no flair.

Either the showrunners really need the richness of the books to pull from, or the show has lost too many great actors.

i was hoping they would burn his body and then resurrect from fire....lol.  i really was.

i liked arya's acting.....the 3 temptations she was presented and passed.  food, shelter, and her sight to entice her.

i liked bran's acting in the opening, saying he was happy in that illusion...it was so sad when he said it.

i guess i really liked the subtlety in the episode more than the "grand reveal"..which was the worst kept secret ever, lol.

i liked the little nuggets...ned's sister.  ghost always in the scene.  tyrion and the dragons, further fueling the fact the he might be half targeryan (theory that the mad king raped the lannister mother, hence the difficult child birth and his deformity).

[jeansheridan]

Is is wrong that I love Zombie Mountain?  And how efficient he kills?  And I love how he towers over Cercei. 

I really, really wanted Jaime to kill at least one person.

I agree that the writing for Tyrion and Varys has been seriously lacking thus far. They were pretty good last season.  It's nice to have some humor and I like they they seem to enjoy each other (the characters and the actors).  Just sharpen up the writing.  I noticed it was a new writer for this episode (or new to me).  He was good for Cercei.  I loved the Bran scenes (man, he got handsome!  Lucky show-runners).  Dragons and giants in one episode.  And a wolf.  Lots of nice bits, but momentum wasn't there.  It didn't build to Jon's reanimation.  It lacked the cohesion of the best episodes. 

[Tikichick]

Good call, Lovebug, on the poetic justice possible with Oathkeeper.

[Alapaki]

I think a nice bit of attention to detail, which reinforced Melisandra losing her faith, was the way she was bundled up in front of the fire when Davos came to her.  Previously, we've been shown and told how she didn't need warm clothing even at the Wall because of her connection with the Lord of Light.

Otherwise, I have just nits to pick regarding the tone of some of the dialogue:

1) Tyrion and Varys don't need to be the comic relief.  They're lives are just as much in jeopardy as Davos.  Tyrion may very well be the type to joke around when he's nervous, but it's coming across as clownish.

2) Have we been told that Tommen knows Jaime is his father? (I know Myrcella told Jamie she knew even though she'd never been told).  Because the tone that Jaime took with Tommen in the Sept was bordering on insubordination, even if he is only the King's "uncle".  I don't remember him being that way with Joffrey (whom, I admit, was a bit older than Tommen).  I wonder if this is a sign of Jaime just being out of fucks to give about whether anyone knows or not?

[Dewey Decimate]

I'm a little dubious about the IB story, but think they did a good job casting Euron in that he has quite a resemblance to Alfie Allen.

My heart burst with squee when dragon #2 (can't tell the difference in the torch-light) shook his head and chains at Tyrion like "me next!" I want to curl up next to one of my own.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

IHW said that MVS has the ability to make even the simplest lines--like "He's over there"--sound meaningful and profound. I loved, loved, loved Bloodraven's line this episode about how it's beautiful under the sea, but if you stay too long you'll drown and MVS's sad, knowing line reading: vivid, evocative, and poetic. More of that, please, writers. A lot of the show-only dialogue in GOT is rather workmanlike--marching the characters from plot point A to plot point B--so I love it when there is beauty in the language.

As for Mel's spa treatment ritual, I kind of like that she clearly had no idea what she was doing and was making it up as she went along. "Sure, let's throw some beard hair in the fire, too, why not?"

The main point was she actually said a prayer with some feeling to it, the hair was a trick or throw back to season one about Jon liking his hair more then anything else.

[Statman]

14 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Brienne not telling Sansa that Arya was with the Hound.  Brienne didn't know the Hound prior to their battle, right?  But Pod knew him.  This means that Brienne and Pod would have both agreed to keep this news from Sansa.  Unless they're withholding it temporarily.

 

 

13 hours ago, Alayne Stone said:

I really don't know why Brienne said "she was with a man" either unless she thought that maybe Sansa would at the very least be familiar with his reputation and thus that it might worry her. I don't know, it was a weird choice to make though.

I don't understand the significance of Brienne NOT telling Sansa that Arya was with the Hound.

Brienne herself didn't even know who the Hound was until Pod mentioned it prior to them fighting.  As others have mentioned, Brienne and PD also has no reason at all to think that the Hound has any sort of significance to Sansa - both of them would have never known that the Hound saved Sansa from being raped or that he chatted with her while she was engaged to Joffrey. 

11 hours ago, J----av said:

 

 This is what bothers me too. Davos and SHireen had one of the closest relationships in the whole show, but Davos hasn't even acknowledged her death (or Stannis's really) and is all about Jon for some reason. It makes no sense

It makes total sense to me because Davos has no idea that Shireen was burned on Stannis' order.  When Mel returns to Castle Back alone, it is quite reasonable to me that Davos likely assumed that the Baratheon army had been decimated and that their camp any potential survivors were killed by the Bolton army.  At this point right now, Mel is the only person who knows that Shireen was sacrificed and I can't imagine that she is going to volunteer that nugget to Davos.  We as show watchers know the entire story, but Davos doesn't.

[WindyNights]

13 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

There were interviews with D&D in the entertainment news outlets.  I recall the quote "when he [Martin] told us how Shireen would die and that it would be on Stannis orders", I think they mentioned it in the videos they do after the episodes.  Martin never contradicted them

I remember this because, at the time, the forums were ablaze with the revelation that Stannis would sacrifice his own daughter.  Many of us wondered about the logistics, off course, giving the geographical locations and distances of the characters in the books, but it doesn't need to happen the same way as it did on the show.

That didn't happen because they only said "When he told us this was going to happen". They never said on Stannis' orders 

Although I do think Stannis will be heading that way which is why I think he's going to beat the Boltons.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Game Of Thrones Brings Even More Death -- But Also Some Life! ...But Still Mostly Death

Also, that thing that everyone thought was going to happen? It happened.

[FemmyV]

14 hours ago, mac123x said:

 

Jake Lloyd the Second.  I hope he dies soon.  Or just stays offscreen, that'll work for me.

For one thing, she might not know that Sansa knows the Hound.  Sandor buggered off in S02E09.  Brienne didn't get to Kings Landing until the end of season 3.  Brienne might have skipped his name because she thought that Sansa might know him by repute only, and would be scared that Arya was with him.  Ironically, she'd probably feel good that Arya had him protecting her.

Brienne might not know, but Pod sure would. If they're going to start out serving Sansa by hiding half the story, that's not good.

14 hours ago, mac123x said:

For another

  Hide contents

the writers might be avoiding naming him until he can pop up later, still alive, for a nice surprise.

This is where I miss the books and GRRM. I would have liked to see how he would write Sansa's reaction to the Hound's death, especially since it came as a result of his involvement with Arya. This whole debacle should be a lesson to any writers out there who would consider cashing in on a franchise before they can finish it.

[Alapaki]

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I think this is part of it.  I also think it's really important here to remember that these people have been at war for a long time now.  They've seen a lot of death.  Davos lost his son earlier and now he's lost his entire reason for being in the North in the first place.  Stannis and Shireen have probably been dead for awhile and not in any place close.  There's nothing he can do for them now.  Grieving either of them now isn't going to do a thing for the NW guys who are about to die needlessly without some kind of intervention.

Again, he's no dummy.  Even if he wasn't at Hardhome, he can see with his own eyes what the situation is at the Wall, that something very bad is obviously coming, and that Jon was the one person who was trying to save a lot of people that Thorne and his cohorts were perfectly willing to see die for no reason other than they were born on the wrong side of the Wall.  Unless he either intends to lay down and die or try to flee south on his own, he probably figures he might as well throw his lot in with the guys he can at least identify as still fighting for something.  He also knows that Mel's magic is real.  He may not have approved of it or of her in the past, but he's already lost pretty much everything so what's the worst that happens if it goes wrong now?  She can't kill a man who's already dead.

What happened to Shireen is indeed the most awful awful, but it won't surprise me if nothing more is ever made of it beyond maybe clarifying whether her sacrifice was in fact part of the "only death can pay for life" idea.  They've simply got bigger fish to fry now.  

I also think that Davos, by his own admission I'd say, is the consummate follower.  He doesn't see himself as a leader.  And when he looks around, he doesn't see much leadership material.  So he may feel that resurrecting Jon may be his best bet.

Also, interesting of Davos unwittingly bringing syncretism to the affair of all of these various gods by saying "I don't care who's name you think you're acting, you can do magic, now do it!"

Finally, kudos for D&D teasing with Davos' line "apologies for what you're about to see" in one of the trailers only to have him refer to his swordsmanship.  That was an awesome tease.

[Tikichick]

I think the omission of the Hound's name was meant for the audience, not anything at all to do with Brienne, Pod or Sansa.  A certain segment of the audience may have let that conversation sail entirely over their heads, and likely will be suitably surprised should a reveal come along.  

[FemmyV]

13 hours ago, Oscirus said:

As a Stark, the person who delivers the sentence has to carry it out.  So in your scenario, Sansa would have to deliver the sentence.

 

An alliance with the most powerful house in the North (at the moment) isn't such a shabby prize.

Not so powerful anymore. Ramsey has no wife, no heir atm. Sansa was his ace in the hole. Now, she can claim she lied about her marriage to Tyrion not being consummated. And if she turns up preggers with Ramsey's child, 1: she can try to claim it as Tyrion's, at least until Ramsey is dead, if necessary. And if no one knows she's preggers until Ramsey is dead, she's got an easy claim to Winterfell.

Edited May 2, 2016 by FemmyV

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

No Danaerys, and I didn't miss her at all. I still think the biggest mistake G.R.R.M. ever did was isolating her so much from the other plots happening in King's Landing and the North.  I honestly don't care and won't care until she is at the Wall.

Mixed feelings about Arya. I know where it is heading per the books, but I still want to see her revenge the hell out and be the one to take Cersei down. I also live for the day the Stark children reunite again (and show, it would be nice to know how Rickon is doing), Jon included.

ETA: LYANNA!!! Can't wait for the others.

I agree that it was a mistake for GRRM to keep Dani's story so separate, but he was off world building in his mind, having fun.  He seems to want a bunch of religion based wars, distracting everyone, while climate change is the real enemy that will wipe out more of humanity than any of their Gods.

1 hour ago, lovebug1975 said:

davos' loyalty is not too far fetch....or rather, it's more a jon thing than it is davos.  although davos is portrayed as one of the more honorable characters in this show, seeing jon handle the wildlings and showing mercy towards the wildling king with the mercy killing.....it's no surprise.  but like i said...it is more of a jon thing.  thought the show was subtle about it, people seem to be drawn to him and "see something" in him.  the prior lord commander giving him the valyrian steel sword....the rarest of rare heirlooms he gives to a practical stranger.  melissandre saw something in him.  the wildlings.  the ginger wildling changed his tune about him.  his night watch brigade.  even stannis.  it is a recurring theme with jon.  he must have inherited it from his dad (am i'm not talking about ned, lol).

I think with Davos it's that like recognized like.  Jon is a good man, and at this point, Davos needs a good man to back.

1 hour ago, stillshimpy said:

 

According to Littlefinger in the first season, Cersei has her own network of spies, so I assumed that word got back to her and she deployed Mountainstein. 

When it comes to Davos being so fixated on resurrecting Jon, it makes perfect sense to me.  Stannis is dead, Shireen is dead and in the show, Davos has lost his family.  Loyalty means everything to him and I think he was just appalled that Jon was stabbed, by his own men, in such a cowardly fashion and with no chance to fight for himself. 

I don't think it was Jon, just as Jon, but the horrible injustice of it.  Davos has lost everything, what else is he to do but find something else to believe in? 

Exactly.  Davos is not the leader type, but he's the best #2 you could ever have.

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

I think odds are slim Sansa reaches the Wall and it's likely she winds up back at Winterfell.  Just as she's reunited with Ramsey would be perfect timing IMO for Nymeria to emerge from her travels and pop in on the old homestead. 

It may take forever in the books, but I think on the show, we will see Sansa reach the wall, but will Jon still be there?  He died.  His oath is over.  It's likely he stays at the wall anyway, but now he could roam if he wishes.

53 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

 

Sorry, this new quoting thing has some bugs...already covered in another quote.

19 minutes ago, Statman said:

 

I don't understand the significance of Brienne NOT telling Sansa that Arya was with the Hound.

Brienne herself didn't even know who the Hound was until Pod mentioned it prior to them fighting.  As others have mentioned, Brienne and PD also has no reason at all to think that the Hound has any sort of significance to Sansa - both of them would have never known that the Hound saved Sansa from being raped or that he chatted with her while she was engaged to Joffrey. 

 

The lack of the Hound does bother me.  He's another of my favorite characters, and it seemed deliberate to leave his name out here.  I have no shipping fantasies of the Hound, but I do think he's still alive, and likely to join that religious faction, and be their very effective sword.  Frankly, with all of the various religions popping up on this show, I preferred the quiet monks helping the poor the most.  We've got stand in Taliban, Born Agains, Religious Right, Magic based which could be one of several religions, water gods, fire gods, and the monks seem more Buddist than anything.  Most are just as destructive and cruel as the various houses and war leaders.  I think that will all come to a head in the books, but maybe not on the show.  Frankly, I think people warring and killing in the name of their various religions is a huge theme GRRM wants out there, while "winter" or climate or nuclear climate changes are the real threat.

5 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

Brienne might not know, but Pod sure would. If they're going to start out serving Sansa by hiding half the story, that's not good.

This is where I miss the books and GRRM. I would have liked to see how he would write Sansa's reaction to the Hound's death, especially since it came as a result of his involvement with Arya. This whole debacle should be a lesson to any writers out there who would consider cashing in on a franchise before they can finish it.

I kind of agree, but in reality, this is a TV show, and frankly, being completely loyal to every single sub plot of GRRM's would be a hopeless task.  My two regrets are lack of the Hound, and the complete ruination of Jamie as a character who actually does change.

[Hecate7]

5 hours ago, Ottis said:

- Speaking of Boltons, this is a small issue but ... won't the Bolton followers have an issue with a bastard succeeding their leader? Putting aside the lie about poison, there are rules around this kind of thing. We heard that the little prick is "always my firstborn," so I suppose that might suffice ... but it sure would have made it clearer if they show added a line or two about that being meaningful. Or someone else would have heard it.

No, because Roose very publicly acknowledged Ramsey, and they have known all Ramsey's life that he was next. Walda and her baby were a blip on their radar--it's possible that no one outside the castle is actually going to know about it, and Ramsey can always trump up an adultery or treason charge to justify his treatment of Walda and her infant. It's murdering his father, that's the rub here. He has to make sure that people don't hold that against him somehow.

[polyhymnia]

3 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Tommen seems to be oblivious that Margaery is in jail because of Cersei's manipulations.  Is he still that naïve?

I am irritated that anyone (Jaime or Cersei) think that Tommen owes Cersei an apology.  He owes Margaery an apology.  Cersei's stupid plan and collusion with the HS just backfired on her.  She was perfectly happy with all of this or worse happening to Margaery and Loras.  Nothing will ever make me sympathetic for that character, show, but thanks.  Tommen probably doesn't really get that his mother caused all of this, but if Jaime really thought about for 6 minutes he could probably figure it out.

Theon, on the other hand, knows he did the wrong thing (constantly) and is sorry that he did the wrong things.  He has finally admitted outloud to at least Sansa that having those other little boys killed was a horrible, horrible act that was absolutely worthy of execution and that it would be difficult to find forgiveness for those murders.

The Boltons.  Sigh.  I hate losing Roose this early in the season to the only truly cartoon baddy remaining (other than Gregor before he was frankensteined) and Ramsay killing him in front of Karstark made no sense at all.  I don't think anyone would be that keen to buddy up with Ramsay without his Dad throwing the real weight of house Bolton around, but whatever.  Of course he killed Fat Walda and wee little Bolton.  And of course it was the dogs.  Run, Walda, run!!

Tyrion's encounter with the dragons was okay but 1) how will they be able to leave the crypt?  The entrance looks way to small for them, 2) why did they just slink back further into the room?, 3) why didn't Missandei come along for that nonsense since they allegedly trust her?
 

ETA:  Everyone who knows Shireen's fate (other than Melissandre) is dead, right?  I am sure Davos just assumed she was killed in the battle.

I would have like young Lyanna to have darker hair (more Stark looking).  I am more excited about the flashbacks than anything else.

Edited May 2, 2016 by polyhymnia

[mac123x]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

The most important question...now that is seems unlikely that we'll see Victarion Greyjoy on this show, who will sail the Dothraki Sea?

I admit I didn't see the sideburns on the actor playing young Ser Rodrik so I kept wondering why Bran didn't say "and that's my Uncle Brandon."

Pretty sure they're giving Vic's plotline to Yara.  Since she's not currently freezing her butt off with Stannis's snowed in army like in the books, it'll give her something to do and eliminate having to cast another actor.

 

I thought that was supposed to be young Brandon, and wondered why he was considerably older than the other kids.  Being young Rodrik makes much more sense.

 

Regarding Theon:  I didn't think he was afraid of his inevitable execution by Jon if he went to the wall.  He said he was planning on taking Sansa all the way there, but now that she's got Brienne and Pod, he has an opportunity to make some restitution for his crimes.  He's now got a chance to do something good before dying.

[benteen]

You know, I'd like to see Yara get that storyline.  The potential rewards for her character to join in such an alliance would be great.

Though I did mean the Dothraki Sea line as a joke because it was a rather funny Victarion line in the book.

[Dev F]

5 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

I was more caught by the whole thing where the books made a giant deal out of how unconscionable it was for a warg to take over a person and here we learned that Hodor was actually Willis.  Show Bran has warged Hodor, but I can't figure out where they might be taking that other than...I wonder if Bran will leave the cave via Hodor, with Hodor's consent? 

My first thought was that perhaps Hodor's brain got scrambled because Bran will at some point try to warg into young Willas to influence the past.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Dev F

[Winter Rose]

Whoa?! Jon Snow is back?!?! I will say that although I, and everyone else, saw it coming a mile away, I did honestly expect them to delay his return just to keep people talking. So I'm pretty grateful that they've done it already, both to settle the argument and to put focus back onto the rest of the show, because there are other storylines too. My favorite part of it actually was when everyone left the room, Ghost is shown sleeping on the floor, then he wakes up, then Jon wakes up. I thought that was a nice touch.

I absolutely loved Bran flashbacking to young Ned and Lyanna and Benjen. That backstory is one of my favorite things in the entire series and I cannot wait to see it play out... and to possibly (finally) answer a certain theory. And I'm interested in why Hodor can't, or chooses not to, speak anymore.

It's really about time they got to killing off Balon Greyjoy and am glad the show let us see it. I actually am looking forward to the Iron Islands having a storyline, they delayed it so long already.

As much as Roose Bolton deserved to meet his end, I did find his death rather underwhelming... and surprising that he wouldn't have been prepared for Ramsay to act, should Roose have had a son (which it was obviously going to be a son) because there's no way Ramsay wouldn't have acted. But because Ramsay doesn't think long term, I'm hopeful that in spite of no longer having to answer to anyone, without Roose there to keep him in check, Ramsay's actions will finally catch up with him. I love the idea of Ghost eating him.

The scene with Tyrion and the dragons was good. I only detest the thought of him being (another) secret Targaryen but I'm all for him being a dragon rider. I like that Missandei was used to support that dragons don't attack those who are loyal to their mother, instead of making something exclusive to Tyrion.

And NO DORNE! So all in all, I liked this one (and more than last week's).

[Conan Troutman]

3 minutes ago, Winter Rose said:

As much as Roose Bolton deserved to meet his end, I did find his death rather underwhelming... and surprising that he wouldn't have been prepared for Ramsay to act, should Roose have had a son (which it was obviously going to be a son) because there's no way Ramsay wouldn't have acted. But because Ramsay doesn't think long term, I'm hopeful that in spite of no longer having to answer to anyone, without Roose there to keep him in check, Ramsay's actions will finally catch up with him. I love the idea of Ghost eating him.

Yeah, getting rid of Roose was necessary to put House Bolton in a weaker position (with at least one of their allies betraying them eventually) so that the second war for Winterfell can be successful and not the unmitigated disaster that Stannis' doomed effort was. 

[Nanrad]

6 hours ago, Skeeter22 said:

It's kind of amusing that Theon is totally right that Jon wouldn't let him live at Castle Black, especially since Jon told Olly to get bent when he complained about the Wildlings murdering his entire family. How on earth did the writers manage to make a poor orphan so unsympathetic? 

I legit LOL'd.

[Zonk]

I thought a red priest resurrection involved some smootching (kiss of life) or did I remember that wrong. They screwed Carice van Houten hard on this one.

17 hours ago, SeanC said:

Arya was traveling with “a man”, eh?  Now that’s some unnatural wordplay in the service of avoiding a longer conversation.

That was reaaaally clunky. Sansa knows the hound, Brienne knows the hound and Brienne knows that Sansa knows the hound. Why would she say "a man"? Maybe she didn't want to worry Sansa. But it seems kinda far fetched.

[qtpye]

Quote

I am irritated that anyone (Jaime or Cersei) think that Tommen owes Cersei an apology.  He owes Margaery an apology.  Cersei's stupid plan and collusion with the HS just backfired on her.  She was perfectly happy with all of this or worse happening to Margaery and Loras.  Nothing will ever make me sympathetic for that character, show, but thanks.  Tommen probably doesn't really get that his mother caused all of this, but if Jaime really thought about for 6 minutes he could probably figure it out.

THIS!  The only reason the HIgh Sparrow is in power is because Cersei armed them like an idiot for no other reason then to spite Margery.  She has done her best to undermine Tommen's rule through her stupidity and jealousy.

However, Jamie is under the impression that Cersei is a fantastic mother who would sacrifice anything for her children?  She loves her children, but not at the expense of her own ego.

It made me realize that this is how Jamie justifies his love for her.  He knows she is a horrible woman, but he thinks that she will always be there for him and their children (child, now that two of them are dead).

I really hope he learns of her affair with Lancel and realizes he has wasted his life on her.

I am sorry, but I do not find the actor that plays Ramsey threatening.  He looks like an adorable chipmunk (okay, an evil adorable chipmunk) and therefore his character always falls a little flat and silly for me.  I certainly do not believe in "Super Ramsey" the show is trying to sell.  I really wished they cast an actor that looked more like what Ramsey is supposed to look like in the book.

I thought that actor playing Roose had the proper gravitas for his character, even though he did not look like what the book described.  I still get chills when Kat lifted up his sleeve and saw he was wearing chain mail at the Red Wedding.  I will miss his evil.

[Eyes High]

I'm kind of surprised at the complaints on this thread from book readers that TV Ramsay is too cartoonishly evil, considering what Book Ramsay does:

TV Ramsay: Forces Theon to watch while Ramsay rapes his new wife.

Book Ramsay: Forces Theon to perform oral sex on his new wife.

TV Ramsay: Rapes his new wife every night.

Book Ramsay: Covers his new wife's breasts in bite marks, threatens to force her or possibly forces her to have sex with dogs.

TV Ramsay: Feels bad about Myranda dying and is grimly resigned rather than cheerfully sadistic about killing Walda and her baby.

Book Ramsay: Has nothing approaching a human feeling, ever.

If anything, TV Ramsay at least in evil level is a toned-down version of his book self. It is true that Book Ramsay never fed his stepmother and his baby brother to his dogs, but Roose believes Book Ramsay DID poison his not-so-baby brother Domeric so that Roose wouldn't have any other heirs (and I believe it's for this reason that Roose won't have any kids in the books, because he knows Ramsay will kill them).

Quote

I thought that actor playing Roose had the proper gravitas for his character, even though he did not look like what the book described.  I still get chills when Kat lifted up his sleeve and saw he was wearing chain mail at the Red Wedding.  I will miss his evil.

I too will miss Roose. RIP, Sex Voice.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Eyes High

[kittykat]

^THIS  Book Ramsay is way way worse.  Not to mention the sadistic shit pulled on Lady Hornwood in ACOK.  Even Book Roose was perfectly fine with the Northerners taking out Ramsay before the Red Wedding.

Quote

I absolutely loved Bran flashbacking to young Ned and Lyanna and Benjen. That backstory is one of my favorite things in the entire series and I cannot wait to see it play out... and to possibly (finally) answer a certain theory. And I'm interested in why Hodor can't, or chooses not to, speak anymore.

I'm saying it now.  Hodor has got Severus Snape complex.  He was in love with Lyanna but knew he couldn't be with her because of low birth.  Her death scarred him.  I almost wonder if he was present when Lord Rickard burned given his fear of fire tying that all with Lyanna's "kidnapping" and death.  i know we don't need any more theories but I'm going with HODOR LOVES LYANNA...always.

Edited May 2, 2016 by kittykat

[benteen]

While I wasn't thrilled with the way Roose went out and thought it was rushed, it was a typical GOT death.  In that he gets what's coming to him but maybe not in the manner he deserves.  Joffrey was poisoned to death and died painfully but he deserved to be beheaded by Robb to avenge his father's death.  Roose deserved to be taken out at the hand of a Stark but it wasn't meant to be.  Aerys deserved to die at the hand of a Star but it was Jaime who did the deed.

[Nanrad]

2 hours ago, FemmyV said:

Brienne might not know, but Pod sure would. If they're going to start out serving Sansa by hiding half the story, that's not good.

This is where I miss the books and GRRM. I would have liked to see how he would write Sansa's reaction to the Hound's death, especially since it came as a result of his involvement with Arya. This whole debacle should be a lesson to any writers out there who would consider cashing in on a franchise before they can finish it.

Hasn't  GRRM been working on this series for DECADES. And that there is legit fan concern that he may die before he can even finish it? I don't blame that for wanting to adapt it and, at least, if something does happen they have Word of God of how it ends even if they aren't 100% faithful to the source or execute it like GRRM would.

[stillshimpy]

Quote

Right.  Manderley's main concern was that he didn't want to betray the Boltons until there was proof that a male Stark heir was alive.

 

Oh God, I'm fucking up this quoting thing like a complete newb and no longer have any idea who said this.  So ...uh....you, yes, you!  Do you feel good? Because you look good.  There, I have now seamlessly and artfully covered for my inability to remember the name (for which I apologize, but you should have seen the bloody wall o' text that appeared with the huge variety of names).  Anyway, I can actually remember some things! 

Including that Manderley was not actually concerned with making sure there was a male heir for the Starks, but rather that he had to conceal his allegiance to the Starks from the Boltons and Freys while Manderley's own heir was being held hostage in King's Landing.  So he pretended in front of Davos and faked executing him for the rest of the Kingdom, so he could send Davos after Rickon.  Manderley knew Rickon was alive. 

After he got his own heir back, he rolled forth towards Winterfell and apparently killed, cooked and then ate a couple of Freys and wasn't doing much to conceal his "I'm not on your side" status while at Winterfell (and was in fact, attacked in one of the last scenes there) ....because his heir was safe and he could die with impunity, which he pretty clearly intended to do.  

I know this, because I fucking love Lord Manderley.  His my spirit character (of some not insubstantial size, but I'm down with that if it will take out a Bolton are ten).

 

Quote

My first thought was that perhaps Hodor's brain got scrambled because Bran will at some point try to warg into young Willas to influence the past. - Dev F

 

I love this.  That's brilliant and I hope it comes to pass.  

Edited May 2, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Tikichick]

Even if all of the books were complete and published, no adaptation could possibly be 100-percent faithful, including every location, character and happening.  Simply not possible to be done, financially or otherwise.

Too many people would remember Hodor before he was Hodor if he changed in Bran's lifetime. 

[stillshimpy]

Too many people would remember Hodor before he was Hodor if he changed in Bran's lifetime.

But it wouldn't be within Bran's lifetime if he attempted Warg him in the past, which was what Dev F suggested.  It would be within Hodor's lifetime, but not Bran's since Bran can essentially time travel.  I don't know if he can time-warg though. 

[loki567]

57 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I'm kind of surprised at the complaints on this thread from book readers that TV Ramsay is too cartoonishly evil, considering what Book Ramsay does:

TV Ramsay: Forces Theon to watch while Ramsay rapes his new wife.

Book Ramsay: Forces Theon to perform oral sex on his new wife.

TV Ramsay: Rapes his new wife every night.

Book Ramsay: Covers his new wife's breasts in bite marks, threatens to force her or possibly forces her to have sex with dogs.

TV Ramsay: Feels bad about Myranda dying and is grimly resigned rather than cheerfully sadistic about killing Walda and her baby.

Book Ramsay: Has nothing approaching a human feeling, ever.

If anything, TV Ramsay at least in evil level is a toned-down version of his book self. It is true that Book Ramsay never fed his stepmother and his baby brother to his dogs, but Roose believes Book Ramsay DID poison his not-so-baby brother Domeric so that Roose wouldn't have any other heirs (and I believe it's for this reason that Roose won't have any kids in the books, because he knows Ramsay will kill them).

I too will miss Roose. RIP, Sex Voice.

Ramsey definitely cartoon evil in the books but his worst acts are always off-screen. GRRM knew he didn't have to show every moment of torture of Theon for it to hit the audience. And there's a pretty significant difference between how GRRM writes him and how D&D write him. Ramsay's a pretty minor character in the books, although a big reason that him is being off-screen for ASoS and AFFC, but even then only shows up as a supporting character in Theon's chapters. I think GRRM knew there's only so many times you could hit the same beats with that character before it just becomes repetitive and boring. D&D seem to revel in his sadism. 

 

Compare that to Ramsey in GoT where outside of Jon, he's basically been the most important character in the North the last three seasons. And I don't want to restart the whole rape argument but one of the many ways I feel that storyline failed is that at the end of the day it really became about Ramsay, not Theon or Sansa. 

Edited May 2, 2016 by loki567

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, Alapaki said:

I think a nice bit of attention to detail, which reinforced Melisandra losing her faith, was the way she was bundled up in front of the fire when Davos came to her.  Previously, we've been shown and told how she didn't need warm clothing even at the Wall because of her connection with the Lord of Light.

I know, wasn't it?

3 hours ago, Alapaki said:

I also think that Davos, by his own admission I'd say, is the consummate follower.  He doesn't see himself as a leader.  And when he looks around, he doesn't see much leadership material.  So he may feel that resurrecting Jon may be his best bet. 

I agree. In addition, he was sworn to Stannis - who was the only one of the five warring kings who thought defending the wall was important. Stannis recognized (iirc) that the wildings were key (even if he was trying to increase the numbers of his own followers).

I loved the flashbacks with Bran, but I must say the rest of it seemed a little disconnected. Little (and big) things happened here and there, but some of the scenes didn't really need to be as long as they were to get to the point.

Edited May 2, 2016 by clanstarling

[cryptaknight]

6 hours ago, Paws said:

I think the man telling the story was the one who flashed his junk to Cersei during her Walk of Shame

That makes even more sense.

[kittykat]

15 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

 

Oh God, I'm fucking up this quoting thing like a complete newb and no longer have any idea who said this.  So ...uh....you, yes, you!  Do you feel good? Because you look good.  There, I have now seamlessly and artfully covered for my inability to remember the name (for which I apologize, but you should have seen the bloody wall o' text that appeared with the huge variety of names).  Anyway, I can actually remember some things! 

Including that Manderley was not actually concerned with making sure there was a male heir for the Starks, but rather that he had to conceal his allegiance to the Starks from the Boltons and Freys while Manderley's own heir was being held hostage in King's Landing.  So he pretended in front of Davos and faked executing him for the rest of the Kingdom, so he could send Davos after Rickon.  Manderley knew Rickon was alive. 

After he got his own heir back, he rolled forth towards Winterfell and apparently killed, cooked and then ate a couple of Freys and wasn't doing much to conceal his "I'm not on your side" status while at Winterfell (and was in fact, attacked in one of the last scenes there) ....because his heir was safe and he could die with impunity, which he pretty clearly intended to do.  

I know this, because I fucking love Lord Manderley.  His my spirit character (of some not insubstantial size, but I'm down with that if it will take out a Bolton are ten).

First of all, it was me!!! Hi there.

Second of all, you are 100% right about Manderley covering up his allegience.  I oversimplified it a little and it's been 4 years since I read ADWD.  I'm really hoping they show the Northern Lords soon because I have a feeling they have a huge part to play now that Ramsey has taken out Roose.  The show never did emphasize which sons of Northern lords the Frey/Bolton alliance deliberately kept alive after the RW for leverage (Greatjon Umber being among them) but I don't expect the show to ever clarify that.  

[EccentricLily]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Ned's

Sorry; having trouble with the Quote thingy. (Trying to post for the first time with a reluctant iPad; please forgive.) Wanted to say that I thought the remark about Benjen's head ringing like a bell sounded familiar! Thanks for bringing that up, Eyes High.

Also loved Stillshimpy's remark about slowly peeling Ramsay with a potato peeler. That would be wonderful, indeed! (Would like to have quoted, but don't want to be here until midnight.)

As for my general observations, I loved the flashback; it was fine to see happiness at Winterfell, and to meet Lyanna at last. And--complete surprise--Wylis! One can only imagine Hodor’s wonder at being addressed as “Wylis” by Bran after so many years as “Hodor”. It must be a relief.

Another relief: I’m glad we are over the Jon-Snow-is-Dead/Alive hump; I was afraid it would occur later rather than sooner. (It reminded me of Ben’s bringing Ruthie ‘back’ in Carnivale, but I suppose there are only so many ways to portray someone waking from the dead.) I wondered whether Ghost had anything to do with Jon's resurrection--surely his own awakening and that upward glance were not coincidental.

Davos and Melisandre’s conversation was interesting in light of their history and relationship in earlier seasons. I’m curious to see how the result of her work alters her demeanor next time.

One of Jon’s stab wounds was crescent-shaped. How did that happen?

Loved Davos’ apology for his lack of fighting ability. He’s a keeper; always thought so.

...And Tormund’s succinct “Until you” following Thorne’s brag about the Night’s Watch fending off the Wildlings for thousands of years.

I hope they shut that creep Ollie in an ice cell and forget about him.

Tyrion’s visit with the dragons. Maybe I’m being too realistic here, but wouldn’t a dragon’s den reek? The uneaten raw meat and their breath could be just a bit unpleasant.  IMO Tyrion was brave going down there without so much as a kerchief over his nose. Can’t wait for Dany to find out someone else has a way with her pets. 

And we’re still not finished with Ramsay Bolton. Enough already. Seeing him meet a really gruesome end would be great--bring on that potato peeler!--but at this point I’d accept his being plugged in the back with an arrow loosed at great distance. The actress playing Walda did well in her brief role portraying her fear and distaste, even while believing she was still under husband Roose’s protection. Now if only dear Walder will learn of her fate.

Good to see Arya moving on with her apprenticeship as one of the Faceless Men, and I am happy Jaqen apparently believes her claims to have no name. (I don’t.)

Completely bored with Tommen.

But Jonathan Pryce and Max von Sydow in the same episode? --O, be still my beating heart!