S03.E01: The Day Tennyson Died

[Bort]

This episode is available early via Showtime website/app and through cable On Demand. Spoiler tags are not necessary, so enter thread at own risk!

 

Season 3 begins with Ethan, now a prisoner under the watchful eye of Scotland Yard Inspector Rush, on a train speeding through the desert of the American West. Meanwhile, Sir Malcolm is confronted by a mysterious Native American man in Zanzibar. Back in London, Dr. Frankenstein seeks out his old friend Dr. Jekyll; and Vanessa seeks the help of Dr. Seward to battle a new evil.

[I-Kare]

Holy crap, that was a great way to start the season! 

Random thoughts: 

-Vanessa's accommodations at the first was one step away from needing Matt Paxton to visit.

-I already love Wes Studi's character already. 

-So happy to see Patti LuPone back. 

-I knew I recognized Dr. Jekyll from somewhere! Shazad Latif is MMFD’s Dr. Nick Kassar!

-And that ending! I was unspoiled so I had no clue we'd get Dracula this season. That whole scene creeped me out in the best possible way. 

 

So excited for this season!

Edited April 26, 2016 by I-Kare

[Misanthrope]

Yeah, seconded on the awesomeness that is Wes Studi. At first with the lighting I thought they were doing an Asian martial artist kind of thing, but the moment he spoke I gave a woohoo!

 

Also, oh so much HoYay with Jekyll and Frankenstein, right?

[I-Kare]

Also, oh so much HoYay with Jekyll and Frankenstein, right?

 

Yes! Definitely, I'm sure we'll find out just how close they were in school.

[LittleIggy]

I knew that guy would be named Renfield. Dr. Jekyll is a hottie! So glad there was no Billie Piper in this episode.

[kieyra]

Missed Lily and Dorian.

Not so fond of Jeckyl. 

Eva Green and Patti Lupone were gold. 

[Cthulhudrew]

Like LittleIggy, I knew that the secretary would be Renfield once we heard the disembodied voice ask his name. I was wondering if the "Dr. Seward" character of Patti LuPone was just a callback to Dracula or more deliberate, and it seems the latter. Glad they've decided to circle back around to the Lord of the Night since the end of season 1.

Was very surprised to see Wes Studi show up in Africa, because I naturally assumed he was going to be met in America. Even though that's their destination, that was definitely a swerve.

I really liked Jekyll. I thought making he and Victor classmates was a nice touch to bring him into the fold, and I thought the actor did a really good job of conveying subtext about his character; at various points when discussing monsters, I swear I saw a hint of recognition in his eyes that makes me think he is already well acquainted with the existence of his darker half, and that he won't just suddenly discover him this season (could be wrong, but we'll see). There was quite a bit of sexual tension between the two characters as well; could they have been lovers in their schoolboy days, or is there some unrequited love on Dr. Jekyll's side? Hard to tell so far.

Ferdinand continues to charm, of course. What seemed to be such an over the top, one episode appearance back in season one became such a loveable, nuanced character. And Eva as Vanessa. Sigh. Even at her dowdiest she still manages to be at once intense and lovely and expressive. Even the Monster didn't bother me as much as usual this episode.

I still mourn the stabilizing presence of the woefully underutilized Sembene.

[sjohnson]

The clumsiness in the plotting to get the band together is kind of shocking. Wes Studi is impressive but how is he supposed to know Sir Malcolm Murray felt all fatherly towards "Ethan Chandler." And how does Studi know how Murray will react when he finds out he doesn't even know this close friend's real name? He's a hard case, but wouldn't finding out Ethan murdered Sembene, not to mention a mother and child, back in London. The discovery that Ethan wasn't an outstanding marksman was kind of deflating too. If they must have a stalwart young(ish) sexy heroic lead, cast somebody suitable for Jonathan Harker. In the book, Harker escaped Dracula himself by climbing barehanded down a castle wall, so a heroic Harker would even fit the original better than the movies.

As to other matters? At the end of last season Vanessa had embraced her dark side, working black magic, out-magicking and death cursing the Devil himself. She kicked his ass. Now she's too depressed to clean herself? You want to go with the flow and enjoy the story but it doesn't seem to follow. Dr. Seward's Patti Lupone-ness doesn't make an instant cure of major depression by cold reading an analysis vague enough to be a horoscope any more convincing for me. The connection between her, her secretary Renfield and Dracula is so unlikely it seems at a glance it must not be an accident, but that implies I think Lyles or Seward have some other connection to Dracula. 

I've already forgotten why John Clare suddenly changed his mind about going to the Arctic. Script?

The series makes a great deal of hay with the monster inside, but Jekyll is plainly the monster on the outside. Quite aside from being too on the nose, it means Mr. Hyde is either a disappointment, or even the hero (a la Alan Moore in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, where Jekyll was a pedophile!) Even worse, it seems like the series has irrecovably committed itself to the proposition that Frankenstein is a monster because he's MRA. Forgetting the whole thing about creating life forms that kill and apparently plot to destroy humanity as trivialities, well, it all seems kind of trivial. These dudes don't deserve the attention of a penny dreadful. Couldn't they at least have had Frankenstein seeking out Ethan, to enlist his help in dissuading her from her indefinite but sensationally delivered threats to humanity. I suppose Dorian's lack of ambition is holding them back? 

[spaceghostess]

The shifts from London to Africa to the Wild West produced a smidgen of cognitive dissonance, but I went with it because I trust this crew. There was something comic book/Tarantino about that whole shoot 'em up on the train, and I kinda loved it, even though it's not precisely what I'm used to from this show. Creature/Clare left the ice ship because he's having flashbacks to his human life. I'm fascinated to see how this plays out. Vanessa/Ferdinand made me shed a tear. He was just the right person to show up. I liked Dr. Jekyll and agree that bringing him into the show via Victor works very well. His being "half caste" and therefore another outsider makes perfect sense here; can't wait to see what they do with him as Hyde. Dr. Seward, hmmm. The fact that she's a descendant of the Cut Wife immediately gave her a power over Vanessa that I'm unsure about; we shall see. I gave a little side-eye to the idea of Sir Malcolm being a father figure to Ethan, as I always thought he was more paternal toward Victor. But I'll take West Studi any way I can get him, so I'll give this "connection" a pass. Happy surprise that Witch-ay Woman didn't end up breaking out her powers so early on. Ethan didn't have much to do, but I'll bet his storyline kicks into high gear next ep. I liked Dr. Sweet, although I'm not sure whether I'm supposed to. Vanessa clearly likes him, which is good enough for me at the moment.

Do you think Dracula will look more Max Schreck's Nosferatu or more Bela Lugosi? I'm hoping for Lugosi, as they did the Nosferatu thing with the vampires in season 1. It would be more fun for him to have a debonair but not-quite-right Svengali thing going on, IMHO.

Edited April 29, 2016 by spaceghostess
"paternal", not "paternalistic"

[armadillo1224]

I really enjoyed this episode and am excited for this season, moreso than Game of Thrones. I thought it was really interesting that they chose to make Jekyll mixed-race because that kind of fits perfectly (and I am intrigued to see how they would portray the experience of a non-white person in Victorian London who is not a servant) and I also appreciate that they have two new minority characters who hopefully, will get a bit more depth and screen-time than Sembene did.

It was great to finally see Dracula and I'm glad that Patti Lupone returned--her presence is exactly what Vanessa needs, though the therapy scene seemed kind of unsettlingly modern to me. I'm kind of confused that neither Vanessa nor Victor seemed to have kept tabs on each other, as they were both clearly spiraling into some very dark places.

[clack]

I'm not hopeful about how the show is going to portray Dracula. It's a difficult characterization to pull off -- he must possess a surface suaveness while still coming across as deeply inhuman, alien and vile. Lugosi got it right, but no one else since then.

[dargosmydaddy]

Eh. It was all right, but previous seasons have taught me that I tend to be rather underwhelmed by the first episode, and by the last I'm bowled over and gut punched and eager for more, so this is par for the course.

On 4/30/2016 at 9:01 AM, Grashka said:

Vanessa is currently my favourite female character from any tv show I'm watching. Her scene with Ferdinand was a brilliant example of what this show does the best - creates real, moving, deeply human relationships and bonds between unlikely characters that made the audience truly care. Last year it was Vanessa&John Clare and Ethan with Sembene, among many others.

So much this! Half the time I could care less about the main plot, but I love these characters and their friendships. I'm cool with the cast being separated for awhile, but I hope we get a Vanessa/ Victor reunion before too long, since they're both still in London.

On 4/27/2016 at 0:16 PM, sjohnson said:

The connection between her, her secretary Renfield and Dracula is so unlikely it seems at a glance it must not be an accident, but that implies I think Lyles or Seward have some other connection to Dracula. 

Did I miss something? Is the doctor connected to Dracula? I thought Dracula was following Vanessa, saw her visit the doctor, and then chose Renfield to be his spy, not that there was some prior connection between them.

 

On 4/27/2016 at 0:16 PM, sjohnson said:

Couldn't they at least have had Frankenstein seeking out Ethan, to enlist his help in dissuading her from her indefinite but sensationally delivered threats to humanity.

Given that Ethan's not really available at the moment and Victor hardly seems capable of leaving his flat, let alone trekking to America... I'd say sending a letter to Jekyll seemed the easier/ more doable/ more realistic choice for him. 

[Netfoot]

2 hours ago, clack said:

I'm not hopeful about how the show is going to portray Dracula.

Perhaps we will never get to actually see Dracula.

[AuntieMame]

I loved this episode, though it didn't give me one of the things on my wish list that I cogitated on during the break. I hoped that the writers would give us a Sembene resurrection storyline using H. Rider Haggard as the literary source of all that is wonderful in the Victorian novels. I realize that Dr. Jekyll is the obvious literary choice; I just hoped they would make a choice less obvious. They'd already primed the ground for it making Malcolm the inveterate Victorian gentleman explorer and leaving Sembene' s story completely untold. 

That said, I'm on board for the story they seem to be gearing up to tell. I'm trying to think of American west examples of the penny dreadful genre to think what they might do with Ethan. I'm a bit disappointed that we're back to Dracula, as that territory has been so well charted that it's variations have variations. This all makes it sound like I disliked the episode which isn't true. In fact, I love PD so much that I was hoping for the writers to be even more innovative and alas, they weren't.

I adored Mr. Lyle coming to rout Vanessa out of her funk....such a sweet man. I wonder how the handsome zoologist will figure into the proceedings. I hope he doesn't end up folded, spindled, mutilated or dead as I don't want him added to Vanessa' s list of guilt and doom.

[sjohnson]

3 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

Did I miss something? Is the doctor connected to Dracula? I thought Dracula was following Vanessa, saw her visit the doctor, and then chose Renfield to be his spy, not that there was some prior connection between them.

 

Given that Ethan's not really available at the moment and Victor hardly seems capable of leaving his flat, let alone trekking to America... I'd say sending a letter to Jekyll seemed the easier/ more doable/ more realistic choice for him. 

The part I missed is how they knew Ives would be making repeated visits to the doctor. If I were following Ives and saw her talking up a dude, I'd have pegged him as the one who'd have eyes on Ives. Point taken about Frankenstein's helpless. Come to think of it, it's obvious this loser couldn't have actually pulled off reviving the dead as immortal superhumans. That must have been done by...Daniel Radcliffe, offscreen!

Also (unrelated,) come to think of it: Dorian has a secret self who is monstrous. Ethan at full moon has a secret self who is a monster. Jekyll we know has a secret self, a monstrous alter ego. No wonder they've revised Stevenson to change Jekyll into a straightforward villain, third time is not the charm, it's third strike and out. Since they've turned Frankenstein into a commonplace MRA, they should have brought on Moreau for the blasphemous horror.

[Bec]

I would have loved to have a scene of hot-mess!Vanessa and hot-mess!Victor crossing paths. Could have been hilarious! Though I guess it wouldn't have made any sense because they were both pretty much hiding from the world. Can they hang out now? I need more "Vanessa and Victor hanging out together" scenes. I want Vanessa to give Victor a makeover.

Vanessa home alone eating like a caveman and letting the upkeep of the house and her appearance go to hell - I've done that, it's actually quite liberating. Hee. Okay, I didn't fill my home with spiders and flies, and I had internet, and food delivery didn't just leave stuff at the door in such a gloriously human-interaction-free way (really wished that they would!). But otherwise it was close to that.

Victor was starting to get my sympathy back with the "I created monsters. And I'm the worst monster of all." Then he had to go and ruin it with being so eager to have Dr Jekyll "domesticate" Lily. I want to like him, show, why do you keep making it difficult? Harry Treadaway was killing it in that scene, though. The way his face changed from despair to hopeful was beautiful work.

I did notice Dr. Jekyll holding Victor's hand ever so tenderly. But then, it seems like open affection between guys used to be more accepted back in the day in England. No one was allowed to be gay (more's the pity), but two guys who are friends could do everything short of actually doing it. Book!Victor's friendship with his best friend was also very affectionate, from what I can recall.

[Primetimer]

Why Penny Dreadful does genre television better than anyone else.

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[raven]

Yay!  Great episode to set up whatever's coming.  I guess Sembene is most sincerely dead.

So that was Hecate on the train?  Hmmm, sure looked like her.

Oh Vanessa - been there, done that, ha.  I didn't get delivered food though :(  or Mr. Lyle knocking on my door, telling me I might want to fix my hair.  There might have been a little dust in my eye when she hugged him.  I knew Patti Lupone was in this season and damn do those two work well off of each other.

So everyone was rock bottom trying to climb back up.  I'm not bothered by Wes Studi's character saying Malcolm felt like a father to Ethan, I trust this show will explain how he knows that. 

Victor, Victor - well, at least he reached out to his old school pal/probably more than pal for help, after a suitable period of moping around.  I got a real Lovecraftian vibe from Jekyll & Victor - Lovecraft's "Herbert West-Reanimator" story is about....two school pals who want to raise the dead, with results that don't go too well for them, to put it mildly.  It'll be interesting to see if any of those story elements are blended here, though there's already so much going around.

I also liked Dr Sweet (please don't be evil, or doomed); John Clare's new purpose..and good casting for Renfield.  The scene with the vamps surrounding him was creepy, with hooks hanging to bleed out their victims. 

Welcome back show...now let Ethan grow his hair back.

[WaltersHair]

That Dr. Sweet has dusty cases full of charisma. Forgot her name? Dracula, is that you?

Welcome back show

[TrininisaScorp]

This weird little show is back!  Yay!

The dire circumstances Vanessa and Victor have been living in is just vile.  Glad Vanessa got it together a bit in the end...hope the same is true for Victor. 

Ferdinand continues to bring the best of out of the characters he shares scenes with.  Loved his scene with Vanessa.

Dr. Seward already has me intrigued.  Can't wait to see more!

Neat intro to Dr. Jekyl.  His walk down the road getting called all the nasty names possible was rough to watch.  You see the outward appearance of calm and cool, but you know Hyde is simmering inside.  Good stuff!  Loved that he was an old school chum of Victor's.

Personally, I'm good with Dracula getting the Maris/Mrs. Wolowitz treatment.  The window for getting Dracula right is so small.

I felt almost blinded by the colors on the Ethan/Train scenes.  I'm so used to darkness on the show.

[placate]

Dr. Jekyll is a hottie.  I loved this episode but I really wanted to see what Lily and Dorian were up to.  Vanessa is a mess but at least she's getting help now, maybe she could hire a few maids a butler and a bodyguard. 

[BuddhaBelly]

Guys, you have no idea how much I had to control myself to watch the premiere properly...on the tv...not days beforehand. It was a struggle but so worth it. My show is back and in top form.

Ethan is still as beautiful as ever and now they've added the equally pretty Dr. Jekyll. What feasts for the eyes! It was jarring to see how they disparaged Dr. Jekyll as he walked along the street but not surprising. I thought it was interesting that he got more verbal "abuse" than Angelique who had a similar coloring, but maybe this is the story the writers want to highlight at the moment. I hope Jekyll sticks around and we get rid of Dorian. Please. Pretty please.

I'm surprised Ethan's father hired a gang to kidnap him from the train. I thought with his money and power he'd be a bit more subtle than to turn his son into a proper fugitive. I'm intrigued by Kaetenay. He said a lot by calling Ethan "he who is almost my son." I want to know more about this relationship and why he went all the way to Africa to gain Malcolm's help. That's not an easy journey.

Poor Vanessa. I can't imagine how abandoned she feels. The two men she loves most essentially left her behind to get lost in that giant house and her own inner demons. It was startling to see her fall into such a state but not surprising. We've seen that she's spiraled down before, so to see it happen again after such a harrowing experience is a bit expected. I wonder how she ends up in the asylum if she's seeking help from a therapist.

I'm so looking forward to the rest of this season.

[TexasGal]

How does this show manage to introduce new characters and make them interesting immediately?  I'm intrigued by all of them already.

I need Vanessa out of her funk so I can covet her wardrobe, please show.

[attica]

I'm so very glad the show brought back Patti Lupone. She was the reason I even started watching it. Her onscreen presence is unlike any other actor's. I just love her brusqueness.

[GenieinTX]

On 5/1/2016 at 11:48 AM, Netfoot said:

Perhaps we will never get to actually see Dracula.

I thought we did see Dracula.  Am I the only one convinced that the guy at the museum talking about the Scorpions is totally going to turn out to be Dracula?  Maybe he finally figured out that going all out evil was not the way to capture Vanessa's heart?

And yes, Jekyll was touching and looking at Victor like a lover.  I don't know if it was ever requited but I would not be surprised at all to see some sexy times between those two. 

Poor Ethan.  He just has no chance at a normal life.  Everything around him has to be crazy.  I still hate that British cop.  Would he really go all the way to NM with him?  Seemed a bit over the top.  And why would the witch be following Ethan?  If she was smart, she would have just went somewhere and set up a new coven or whatever.  Why is she following trouble?

[Waldo13]

Penny Dreadful has the best and most eclectic and interesting cast on TV whether you love them or hate them. 

 

I I really can't understand why PD doesn't garner more Emmy awards especially AG who's performance are always impeccable. Unlike a lot of the shows I watch, PD never disappoints. 

[attica]

Ah, I see Christian Camargo is playing the Museum dude. We all remember him as Rudy

Spoiler

the Ice Truck Killer

in Dexter, S1. 

[qtpye]

Quote

Ethan is still as beautiful as ever and now they've added the equally pretty Dr. Jekyll. What feasts for the eyes! It was jarring to see how they disparaged Dr. Jekyll as he walked along the street but not surprising. I thought it was interesting that he got more verbal "abuse" than Angelique who had a similar coloring, but maybe this is the story the writers want to highlight at the moment. I hope Jekyll sticks around and we get rid of Dorian. Please. Pretty pleas

I have Indian people in my family so that lady trying to empty a chamber pot on his head, calling him the N word, and telling him to go back to Calcutta kind of hurt my heart a bit.  That being said, I appreciated that they are not shying away from the difficulty a person of color would experience.  I did not even realize that he was mixed race.  In India half caste can also mean a marriage that mixes two castes (also frowned upon at this time).

There was an excellent program called The Knick that was about the dawn of surgery.  They had one African American doctor who was absolutely brilliant, but was treated like shit by everyone because of the color of his skin.  We found out that they allowed one African American man to go to medical at Harvard per year, so they could work at the African American hospitals that the white doctors did not want to serve.  I wonder if it was the same in England, but with Indian people?  Otherwise, I do not see how they would let an Indian person, mixed or otherwise, attend the Royal College of Physicians.

[sjohnson]

If I remember correctly, a West African took a medical degree in Scotland in the 1700s. It's true racism was more and more powerfully fostered as the empire got to be more and more important, therefore needing racist "justification." But there was precedent.

[RedheadZombie]

Good Lord, it was so depressing.  How can it have been even more dark than last season's finale?  Vanessa was heartbreaking, she was practically feral.  I know each had his reasons, but how did all these men (who clearly love her) leave her alone?  They know she's the target of The Master, Ethan should know that he's her ordained protector - which is why Sembene sacrificed himself - yet they just left her vulnerable.  And to see Vanessa so timid, meek, and fearful ..... well I'm not sure I will be re-watching the first episode.

Creeping around that house, jumping at the knock on the door, and then cowering away from Lyle like a true feral creature was just painful.  How kind of him to recognize her isolation and reach out.  And when she laid her head in his lap it was so moving.  I kept thinking - Victor would be heartbroken if he saw her condition.  Then we saw Victor, and I thought - Vanessa would be heartbroken by him.  So many broken people who make each other stronger, but are pulled apart.  Why do they allow themselves to be separated?  They must know they're better as a group.  And with the constant focus last season on Vanessa being Amunet, who will be protected by a hound, how does Ethan not realize that he is meant to be her protector not her doom?  And I'm pissed a little because if Sembene were alive, he'd be right there still trying to protect Vanessa.

As others have pointed out, the new characters were added seamlessly, but I want the gang back together!  And if Vanessa is going to risk her soul by having sex again, well it better be with Ethan.  How long is that sexual chemistry going to be dragged out?

As I watched Vanessa with the museum director, I thought - well he's obviously a good guy, because Vanessa clearly likes him.  WTF???  What am I thinking?  She was drawn to Dorian, Caliban, Victor, and Ethan ..... she's a magnet for fucked up men.  Run Vanessa, run.

I'm very confused by the sexual overtone of Victor and Jeckyll's interactions, and I didn't get an evil vibe from Jeckyll.  He talked Victor down from killing Lily to making her love him.  Since they have such a strong connection, and both seemed fascinated with resurrection, I wonder why they went separate ways.  The sexual chemistry is confusing because Victor started out asexual, then absolutely in love with Lily.  The show is very confusing in this aspect.  Ethan and Dorian's encounter led me to believe that Ethan was bisexual, but it now seems to be indicative of Dorian's overwhelming appeal. 

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 0:41 AM, LittleIggy said:

I knew that guy would be named Renfield. Dr. Jekyll is a hottie! So glad there was no Billie Piper in this episode.

It pains me to say this, and I would be horrified if I thought the actress might read this, but I find the character almost painful to look at.  I've googled the actress and she's perfectly lovely, but I really have a hard time looking at her on this show.  The loss of the horrible Brona accent improved the situation, but she really makes me uncomfortable - not in a good way.  This has never really happened to me before, and when re-watching season one I found Brona likable, but I don't find her watchable.

On ‎4‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 9:01 AM, Grashka said:

I have only two small issues with this episode - I though the introduction of Native American character, or maybe it was Mr Malcolm's instant trust in someone who appeared out of nowhere and supposedly knew everything about him, was clumsy and heavy handed. Plus Dracula's two minions, the young male and teenager, seemed a tad overstyled and lame to me.

A few things were confusing (to me) about the SL.  First, how in the world did Kaetenay have enough time to head to Africa and track Malcolm?  Ethan still hasn't reached his own destination.  It also added to my continued insistence in believing that Ethan is at least part Native American.  It began in season one when he's telling the story of how the US treated NA males.  How they took them from their tribes, cut their hair, attempted to erase their culture, and left them belonging to neither world.  When I first watched the episode, I mistakenly believed Ethan was discussing what happened to him as a boy.  The whole lupus dei thing also seems linked in my mind to NA lore.  I don't understand how Ethan was allowed to become so close to Kaetenay to be "almost his father" unless he spent a large amount of his childhood with him.  It makes me wonder if Ethan's mother was Native American, and he lived the first part of his life with her tribe before his father found and took him.  I just don't understand the relationship with Ethan and his father.  There seems to be no love lost there.  His father was willing to have Ethan roughed up while being dragged back to the US, yet is now also willing to kill many law men to remove Ethan from their custody.

Regarding Malcolm being a father-figure to Ethan - I think there is a closeness there, but I don't think I ever viewed it as paternal.  For instance, in season one there's a scene in which Victor discovers Malcolm invited Ethan to accompany him on his next trip to Africa.  Victor is hurt, and Malcolm explains that he doesn't feel for Ethan like he does Victor, and that Victor's special.  It led me to believe they had a long-standing relationship, but I just re-watched season one, episode one, and Victor was a stranger to him.  I think maybe Ethan is the son that Malcolm always thought he wanted, and Victor is much like Peter, the son that Malcolm actually had and feels unresolved guilt about.

As to Dracula's older minion - he was a ringer for Tom Hiddleston when he's not in Loki mode.  Poshly dressed, extremely pale and thin, and a bit androgynous. His entire body language really struck me as so TH, it seemed like it couldn't be accidental.

On ‎4‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 3:14 PM, armadillo1224 said:

It was great to finally see Dracula and I'm glad that Patti Lupone returned--her presence is exactly what Vanessa needs, though the therapy scene seemed kind of unsettlingly modern to me. I'm kind of confused that neither Vanessa nor Victor seemed to have kept tabs on each other, as they were both clearly spiraling into some very dark places.

At this point, I'm not loving the Patti Lupone character.  I feel like she's going to be a weapon of The Master's, even if unintentional, and bring about a full breakdown.  Vanessa is clearly vulnerable to her similarity to the cut wife.

The entire story line is confusing me because we know that Vanessa's affliction is spiritual versus mental, and her treatment by psychiatry in the past was horrific.  I also continue to be a little creeped out by the clear association of Vanessa's problems to her sexuality.  It's so Victorian to think so, but the show seems to present it as fact.  Didn't we get another flash back to Victor's diagnosis of Vanessa's issue as sexually-based?  I'm waiting for another monumental event in history to appear in this SL - the invention of vibrators that physicians used to treat female "hysteria".  I believe it happened in this era.

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 10:24 AM, clack said:

I'm not hopeful about how the show is going to portray Dracula. It's a difficult characterization to pull off -- he must possess a surface suaveness while still coming across as deeply inhuman, alien and vile. Lugosi got it right, but no one else since then.

I think the build up often leads to disappointment on this show.  Dorian's picture was underwhelming, as was the showdown with Vanessa and her doppelganger doll.  Part of the issue is the show's use of makeup and costume versus CGI - which I actually appreciate.  But it does make Ethan's transformation, for instance, less than frightening.

5 hours ago, qtpye said:

I have Indian people in my family so that lady trying to empty a chamber pot on his head, calling him the N word, and telling him to go back to Calcutta kind of hurt my heart a bit.  That being said, I appreciated that they are not shying away from the difficulty a person of color would experience.  I did not even realize that he was mixed race.  In India half caste can also mean a marriage that mixes two castes (also frowned upon at this time).

I was surprised at the blatant racism, and wonder if part of the issue was his caste.  Ghandi never really experienced racism until he visited South Africa, and was personally impacted by Apartheid.  It was said to be the impetus of his activism.  Perhaps Ghandi's wealth and high caste sheltered him in England.

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 11:32 PM, raven said:

So that was Hecate on the train?  Hmmm, sure looked like her.

I'm sure it was supposed to be her, but I thought she looked just like Mila Kunis.  What a change wholesome Western clothing makes on an evil witch.

[attica]

Quote

 Lugosi got it right, but no one else since then.

I still save my throat for Frank Langella.

[clack]

Frank Langella's Dracula -- sexy, sympathetic, human -- was the example of what I was thinking of when I objected to Dracula's post-Lugosi mischaracterizations. Stoker's Dracula was loathsome. Yes, he possessed a sexual element, but it was the kind of repulsive, gross sexuality of, say, a snuff video.

[sjohnson]

The opening of Coppola's movie, when it Dracula versus Harker, I thought was superb. Unfortunately as the movie goes it it gets weaker and weaker. Olman's Dracula mooning over Ryder's Mina Murray was almost lame. There was a faint spark in the climax when the men chase Dracula, then Harker cuts off his head. But that's just me, it's probably heretical to say the best parts of that movie had Keanu Reeves in them, because Reeves evidently has the Gere effect of making his co-stars look really good.

[raven]

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First, how in the world did Kaetenay have enough time to head to Africa and track Malcolm? 

I thought Kaetenay said he missed Malcolm in London so followed him to Africa - I took it as a "just missed him" thing.   Malcolm left before Ethan, but how he managed to travel to Africa, bury Sembene in the mountains and then have time to hang out in Zanzibar while Ethan is still heading to the NM territories I don't know.

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I also continue to be a little creeped out by the clear association of Vanessa's problems to her sexuality. 

Hmm..I didn't get this impression.  While the association was true in the past, I think Vanessa's problems now are because she's been used by evil for so long.  She's now had a crisis of faith, causing her to doubt herself.  I think Dr. Seward spelled it out pretty well with her comments about Vanessa feeling not worthy, guilty, the snake eating its tail.  Vanessa only went to this doctor because she trusts Mr. Lyle, so based on his experience; he feels at peace with himself, I think this will be good for her. 

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But it does make Ethan's transformation, for instance, less than frightening.

I like that we can still see the humanity in the monsters, though the doll was thisclose to not working for me.   Similar to how I think John Clare is not the hideous monster almost everyone in the show makes him out to be.  I got more of a corrupted vibe from Dorian's picture (that's the one story I haven't read) so I don't know how ugly/scary it's supposed to be. 

Sorry to quote you so much RHZ, you make a lot of interesting points.  I like your theory about Ethan being part Native American; if his father wiped out a group of NA people he was family too, or made Ethan complicit in same, it would help explain why he loathes him. We already know how Ethan feels about killing NA people on his own.  I'm looking forward to the two of them getting face to face.

I think Malcolm feeling paternal towards Ethan is a bit of retcon to send Malcolm after him, but I'll go with it.   So Malcolm is supposed to spend the rest of his life fighting evil per Kaetenay...I hope this doesn't mean the rest of life won't be very long.  I'm up for a good rescue mission but there'll always be evil.

5 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

And if Vanessa is going to risk her soul by having sex again, well it better be with Ethan. 

As adorable as Dr. Sweet is, I would rather have Vanessa with Ethan too but I'm not sure if she'd be risking her soul.  She did want Ethan to stay with her and lock the rest of the world away (swoon).  I almost got the impression, watching the end of S2 and then this ep, that she feels the demon is gone.  Her depression is because she's lost her faith and feels purposeless.  She went through some pretty harrowing stuff and then the people she really cares about leave.  She seems to be someone who needs a purpose, and thankfully Mr. Lyle showed up and helped her realize her purpose now is to heal herself.

Edited May 3, 2016 by raven

[emma675]

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Creeping around that house, jumping at the knock on the door, and then cowering away from Lyle like a true feral creature was just painful.  How kind of him to recognize her isolation and reach out.  And when she laid her head in his lap it was so moving.  I kept thinking - Victor would be heartbroken if he saw her condition.  Then we saw Victor, and I thought - Vanessa would be heartbroken by him.

That was what stuck with me the most--they would all be heartbroken if they could see the others' situations. I like seeing their individual journeys but I can't wait for them to come back together.

[RedheadZombie]

33 minutes ago, raven said:

As adorable as Dr. Sweet is, I would rather have Vanessa with Ethan too but I'm not sure if she'd be risking her soul.  She did want Ethan to stay with her and lock the rest of the world away (swoon).  I almost got the impression, watching the end of S2 and then this ep, that she feels the demon is gone.  Her depression is because she's lost her faith and feels purposeless.  She went through some pretty harrowing stuff and then the people she really cares about leave.  She seems to be someone who needs a purpose, and thankfully Mr. Lyle showed up and helped her realize her purpose now is to heal herself.

When she burned her crucifix in last season's finale, I didn't feel she thought the demon was gone.  I thought she'd accepted that "The Master" will continue to pursue her, regardless of his form.  I thought that's what the whole Amunet storyline implied.  The burning of the crucifix seemed almost as if she was surrendering to the inevitability of it, after all her support system left her.

I do think she's developed depression, and possibly some OCD-type behavior, which seems completely unrelated to her spiritual attacks.  And I'm not really liking Patti Lupone's character, at this point.  Her diagnosis was too on the nose, and her advice over simplified.  And yet, Vanessa did as told and was seemingly immediately improved.  Visiting museums, making new friends, scrubbing floors, and opening up the mansion to sunlight.  All symbolic of new beginnings.  It just seems trite to me, and going by the season trailer, things are going to become much, much worse.  I'm probably wrong, but I feel the show enjoyed PL and her chemistry with EG, so wrote in a character that isn't really true to the plot, or even Vanessa's character.  I just don't see Vanessa being so trusting of Psychiatry after they drilled holes in her skull.  They almost destroyed her, and actually made her more vulnerable to the demon and his attacks.

What I mean about linking Vanessa's issues to her sexuality, is they've always equated the demonic attacks with sexual happenings.  The "demon" was first triggered by witnessing her mother with Malcolm.  She felt it's presence for years before her impromptu sex with Mina's fiancé, which really unleashed the evil.  After her release from the asylum, the demon comes to her with Malcolm's face and has sex with her.  After Vanessa was able to suppress it for years, she became possessed by having sex with Dorian.  And then Victor confirmed it all with his diagnosis of "a deep psycho-sexual responsiveness", and asks if Vanessa has experienced sexual trauma and whether she's intact.  I appreciate that this was Victorian thinking, but it feels as if the show is confirming that Vanessa's issues are sexually based, or at least sexually triggered and empowered.  The one thing of note is Malcolm telling Victor, in Possession, "It has happened before, but never to this extent.  She fights it as best she can".  This means (to me) that similar attacks have occurred and been witnessed by Malcolm.  We are not told what triggered those incidents.  So this is also why I mentioned Vanessa having sex may risk her soul.  I said it because of her history. 

[Happytobehere]

On May 2, 2016 at 3:34 PM, attica said:

I'm so very glad the show brought back Patti Lupone. She was the reason I even started watching it. Her onscreen presence is unlike any other actor's. I just love her brusqueness.

Seeing commercials with Ms. Lupone is the only reason I'm back (well maybe a little Ethan Chandler), after they killed Zembene, I was pretty much done.

[AuntieMame]

22 minutes ago, Happytobehere said:

Seeing commercials with Ms. Lupone is the only reason I'm back (well maybe a little Ethan Chandler), after they killed Zembene, I was pretty much done.

I'm with the lone poster who worries that Dr. Seward's resemblance to the cut wife makes Vanessa too vulnerable. I did wonder if we got the tiniest nod after Vanessa left the office that Dr. Seward was a new incarnation of the cut wife and thus an aware ally in waiting. As much as I hate the idea that Vanessa's connection to evil is released via her sexuality, it does fit the period, which is the age of hysteria and vibrators as an astute up thread poster noted. It also, sadly, is still relevant in our own time. Uncontrolled female sexuality is still feared and control of women's bodies and reproduction is a central organizing principle of all societies. I just hope that PD acknowledges this fact in an interesting way. 

I so, so wish we'd gotten a Sembene resurrection storyline ala Haggard. I swear, I practically had this written. 

[raven]

1 hour ago, RedheadZombie said:

The burning of the crucifix seemed almost as if she was surrendering to the inevitability of it, after all her support system left her.

I think you are correct here.  She tells John Clare that she lost the immortal part of herself, which at first I took to mean the demon and that she was feeling "less special" - not the best wording - because of it.  Not that she wanted a demon, but she didn't want to be ordinary (as confirmed with her visit with the priest at the end of S1 when she asked about the exorcism).  Now I think my first thought was wrong and she means she's lost her relationship with God; she and John Clare talk about God right after she said that, and it makes more sense anyway (why would Dracula be pursuing her if she didn't have the demon, etc).

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So this is also why I mentioned Vanessa having sex may risk her soul.

The demon may be more apt to manifest when she have sex so maybe this was true in the past.  I'm not so sure now.  Vanessa doesn't have sex with Ethan at the moor house, though she wants to, because of the demon (I'm using that for lack of a better term) but I think she believes she has more control over it now.  This doesn't mean she's happy about that; she's walked away from her belief in God because the only way to protect herself and her friends in these situations is to use the demon.  I think to her this means that she can't have relationship with God or that there is no God. That's why I don't think they're going to go with some awful Victorian sex therapy for her; I don't think Vanessa would allow herself to be abused like that (as in the past) and I don't think it's something Dr. Seward would condone; this is a doctor who worked with a gay man and helped him to accept himself. 

I do agree that they brought Patti Lupone because she and Eva Green were so good together.  I am hoping that this season is more about challenging Vanessa to accept herself and become stronger about her own personal control.

[ganesh]

I have no problem with Vanessa brooding and reciting poetry for 40 minutes or so. 

I like the new locations. You can't really beat the American West, and I like how the train heist was shot, and just the whole feel of it. This show really draws you in. 

I am totally spoiled, so I was like who is this guy? Jeckyl? Ohhhh.

Though I was rolling my eyes at how Victor was going on about the "monster" he created. Dude, she's just not that into you #DaintyManPain. 

Does Dracula even think he's got a chance against Vanessa? Silly bat.

Edited May 4, 2016 by ganesh

[BuddhaBelly]

Back to say that I love that my "dainty man-pain" continues to live on. It was some of my best work.

[dr pepper]

Ok, a few thoughts.

I hope that Malcom stops off somewhere to get Lyle some fresh patchouli ointment for his whiskers,

Agreed in hoping Moreau shows up. In fact a Frankenstein/Jeckyl/Moreau would be a deadly combination. Especially in a setting where vitalism seems to be a real thing.

As for Dracula, i think the show writers will make up their own look and speech patterns for him.

As for penny dreadfuls in the Wild West, they were called dime novels, and they were mostly thud and blunder adventure stories. a lot of them were devoted to outlaws. In fact Jesse James was killed by fanboy who had joined after years of reading about him, but was disappointed to be relegated to sweeping the hideout. Still, some had fantasy elements. You can download a few of them here: https://www.lib.umn.edu/clrc/digital-dime-novels

[BuddhaBelly]

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I was surprised at the blatant racism, and wonder if part of the issue was his caste.  Ghandi never really experienced racism until he visited South Africa, and was personally impacted by Apartheid.  It was said to be the impetus of his activism.  Perhaps Ghandi's wealth and high caste sheltered him in England.

I'm not sure. I would be surprised if Jekyll isn't from a wealthy background and I can't imagine that the average Englishman knew too much about castes, all they see is a darker-skinned foreigner. I think the kicker is that he's awalking around the docks which wasn't know fro the people with the "best breeding." And Victor does point out that Jekyll didn't escape being looked down on during medical school. He's supposed to be inferior and he's breaking the expected rules by likely being pretty brilliant.

Did anyone get the sense that they were friends from a younger age, like, say, boarding school? Were boarding schools a thing then? Their relationship just comes across as something longer and more ingrained that a few years of medical school.

[ganesh]

Medical school could have been 7 years or something, but there's clearly a long history with these guys. I'm sure they shared their dainty man pain as they cried into their pillows at night. 

[Lila82]

True Story: in my younger years, I met Josh Hartnett at a party and completely lost it: babbling, excessive arm waving, inappropriate hugging...the man only gets better looking, and more talented, with age.  If it happened today, I'd probably pass out on the spot. 

I'll admit I'm in the minority that doesn't like Patti Lupone.   Not looking forward to her having a larger role this season.  

A few things were confusing (to me) about the SL.  First, how in the world did Kaetenay have enough time to head to Africa and track Malcolm?  Ethan still hasn't reached his own destination.  It also added to my continued insistence in believing that Ethan is at least part Native American...I don't understand how Ethan was allowed to become so close to Kaetenay to be "almost his father" unless he spent a large amount of his childhood with him...It makes me wonder if Ethan's mother was Native American, and he lived the first part of his life with her tribe before his father found and took him.  I just don't understand the relationship with Ethan and his father.  There seems to be no love lost there.  His father was willing to have Ethan roughed up while being dragged back to the US, yet is now also willing to kill many law men to remove Ethan from their custody.

My assumption has always been that Ethan's relationship with Native Americans, both their culture and the people themselves, is directly related to his role in the Indian Wars.  He was broken by what he saw and did during that time, yet speaks Chiricahua and has a deep understanding of Apache customs.  In theory, he could have been forcibly adopted by a white family, but the majority of mandatory of assimilation policies happened after the wars ended, when he would have been a man grown.  Rather, I suspect he immersed himself in Apache culture as a means of atoning for his sins.  He's only known Malcolm a few months, a year at most, and Malcolm didn't correct Kaetenay when he called him a father figure - it's less about the length of their relationship and more about what they experienced together.   As for Ethan's father, from the way Ethan's described him, he's a control freak that ruled with an iron fist.  Bringing Ethan home might be less about fatherly love and more about returning what he feels is rightfully his.

I'm mostly excited to get Ethan backstory!  How did he get cursed?  Why did he get cursed?  Why was he chosen to protect Vanessa?  I want to know now!

 

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Though I was rolling my eyes at how Victor was going on about the "monster" he created. Dude, she's just not that into you #DaintyManPain. 

I was too, but I LOVE this story.  All the characters are layered and multi-faceted, but I've most enjoyed Victor's journey from sad, asexual virgin to sociopathic asshole.  He thinks he's a monster because he created Lily, but he's a monster in how he seeks to control her.  It's a nice role reversal with Caliban, who entered the scene as an unrepentant murderer, but emerged to be a sad, desperate creature whose only real want is a legitimate connection with another human being.  And then Victor, while always weird and antisocial, had a full life, and now his only goal is possessing Lily.  Who's the monster now, right?  I don't think we're supposed to sympathize with Victor's man pain, but recoil in horror at how much it dictated life then, and continues dictate life today.  

[ganesh]

I was demonstrably more interested when Jeckyl showed up and infinitely more interested at the thinly veiled hoyay. Victor is probably more pissed Dorian is banging Lils and not him. 

[iMonrey]

This has never been my favorite show, but I enjoyed Season 2 much more than Season 1, and Season 3 is looking pretty good so far. I highly approve of the actor playing Dr. Jekyll. He appears to have done a lot of British TV but I've never seen him before. I also like the return of Patti Lupone as a different character. Overall I thought this episode set up the season very nicely and I'm intrigued. I'm not too sure about the Dracula thing though because it felt like Season 1 kind of exhausted the whole vampire story.

I don't get how long Vanessa is supposed to have been on her own because man - that house was covered in dust and cobwebs like nobody had lived there for at least 20 years. I think they overdid it a little bit with the set decorating. I mean, Ethan was still on his way back. Even with some waiting around and a boat ride back to America and a train ride back to New Mexico, we're talking what - six months at most since the end of last season?

I'm also not sure I understand why Vanessa just fell apart like that after she really seemed to embrace her mojo at the end of last season. From her talk with the psychiatrist I gathered it was mostly from Ethan abandoning her but her reaction seemed extreme.

[WaltersHair]

As to Dracula's older minion - he was a ringer for Tom Hiddleston when he's not in Loki mode

I was thinking a better looking Lyle Lovett.

What interests me most about the Patti Lupone character is how modern she is. The Cut Wife was all about the old ways andmagic, so maybe her death was a symbolic death of that culture? Modern psychiatry has essentially replaced demons with mental illness, so I'm intrigued to see if Vanessa's demon can be exorcised or will it take her closer to God.

[Dobian]

Yay, my favorite show about Victorian monsters is back.  Well, my only show about Victorian monsters is back.  I really liked Patti Lupone as the shrink, her exchange with Vanessa was very sharp.  Now we've got Dr. Jekyl and Dracula on board, should make for a fun season.  Ethan's back story could be interesting.  I just hope they bring all the main characters back together before too long.  I never liked the idea of scattering them all about.