S04.E07: Travel Agents

[JennyMominFL]

1 hour ago, Conan Troutman said:

IInteresting thought. Is that realistic, though? It seems to me like she's somewhat high up the pecking order, were there any defectors/double agents with high ranks? 

I thought maybe she was from the Sovjet equivalent of internal affairs and trying to sniff out potential moles in the Rezidentura or preparing some mission of really high importance or whatever. But of course I know very little about all that stuff. 

 

 

2

Definitely a stab in the dark on my part , as I have no clue where they are going with her.

Damn this show is good lately. Between watching this and Underground last night I am surprised I didn't have a stroke

Edited April 28, 2016 by JennyMominFL

[AliShibaz]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

In real life though, the FBI, CIA, MI5&6 ALL had serious moles that went undetected for years and years.  The KGB really did have an illegals program, and those spies lived quite a while here. 

You write that in the past tense - as if you are certain they are no longer here. I would guess they still live among us. Do you have any reason for suspecting they are all gone now?

[millennium]

4 hours ago, RedHawk said:

As Martha's world was unraveling I kept seeing parallels to what she must have gone though when she realized she was pregnant and then got dumped by her fiance. Being "in trouble", a situation she can't reveal to her parents, finding out she can't trust the man she thought was her partner, having to face a difficult journey all alone, all those feelings must have come back to her. Seriously, poor Martha.

As for Elizabeth, I didn't care a whit that she felt jealous and insecure about Martha and Philip. When Philip rushed to reassure her that he loved her and NOT Martha, I began to hate him, and so far even when he's killed innocents like Gene, I have not hated him. He owed it to Martha to tell her the truth about never seeing her again, and I hope what he's done to her continues to make him feel like shit, all the time. 

Because I"m having such negative reactions to both Elizabeth (hated her for punching Martha) and Philip, I"m not sure how I'm going to react to them in the future as their marriage is further tested. I used to see Philip as a man who was allowing his conscience to speak to him and one who might be redeemed through doing the right things. Now I just see them both as reprehensible people. But I'm still IN and eager to see where this goes.

 

What Philip did to Martha was worse than killing her.   He destroyed her.   He destroyed all her hopes, her future, he destroyed her family, he laid waste to her past (poignantly represented by Martha's photo album), he murdered her reputation as a good American, he crushed her soul.   

I am torn about Martha's future.   I don't want to see her killed, but I don't want her to escape to Russia either.  Throughout the episode I hoped that Stan would find her, and, in some sense, rescue her.  Not from charges of treason, but from the life of faceless despair awaiting her in the USSR.   In my perfect script, Stan captures Martha, brings her back to the FBI and negotiates a lesser sentence if she cooperates.   This would give Martha a chance to redeem herself and maybe in ten years, a second shot at a life.   It would also be a sharp contrast to the treatment Nina received at the hands of the Russians.   Nina and Martha are flip sides of the same coin.  Both used in similar capacities by the other side, both exposed as traitors.   The difference would be in how their respective governments handled the problem.   Russia, a bullet in the head.   America, 10-15 years in a federal prison, then a juicy book deal. 

[Ellaria]

1 hour ago, Knuckles said:

Oleg is a little better at the game, since he always agrees with her, and never lets her see any hesitation.

...I had not considered her parents, but I suspect they will be having an accident soon. They might ask too many questions about where is Martha...or even list her with the police as a missing person.

1 hour ago, Ina123 said:

I can't get rid of a feeling that Oleg will come to Stan. Not Stan to Oleg. Oleg isn't a happy camper. I'm an old Granny but dang that dude is good looking.

Oleg isn't a fool. He reads people well.  And I agree that he will come to Stan. Oleg has to do "something." 

And I am sure that Martha's parents will have an accident very soon. I'd like the FBI to get to them and protect them for the KGB arrives. There may be a wedding photo in their home.

6 minutes ago, millennium said:

What Philip did to Martha was worse than killing her.   He destroyed her.   He destroyed all her hopes, her future, he destroyed her family, he laid waste to her past (poignantly represented by Martha's photo album), he murdered her reputation as a good American, he crushed her soul.   

I am torn about Martha's future.   I don't want to see her killed, but I don't want her to escape to Russia either.  Throughout the episode I hoped that Stan would find her, and, in some sense, rescue her.  Not from charges of treason, but from the life of faceless despair awaiting her in the USSR.   In my perfect script, Stan captures Martha, brings her back to the FBI and negotiates a lesser sentence if she cooperates.   This would give Martha a chance to redeem herself and maybe in ten years, a second shot at a life.   It would also be a sharp contrast to the treatment Nina received at the hands of the Russians.   Nina and Martha are flip sides of the same coin.  Both used in similar capacities by the other side, both exposed as traitors.   The difference would be in how their respective governments handled the problem.   Russia, a bullet in the head.   America, 10-15 years in a federal prison, then a juicy book deal. 

Well said. I'd like to see her take her chances with Stan. 

[AllyB]

1 hour ago, Conan Troutman said:

I always assumed the CIA also had agents like the Jenningses running around in Russia.

There wouldn't have been much likelihood of that working at all. You are talking about too completely different societies. It sounds a little like propaganda but in Western societies the culture of personal freedom lends itself to allowing agencies like Directorate S to operate. If a new family moves to town, most people just accept whatever their story is. If anybody is suspicious of their new neighbours and reports them to the authorities more often than not the suspicious person is considered nosy or paranoid. Stan, the FBI agent in counter-intelligence, was looking for illegals who used the same car as his new neighbours and his wife mocked him for being nuts.

But in the USSR things were different. Neighbours were encouraged to report on each other. People could never be quite sure that what they said to others was private. If a KGB agent got suspicious of his new neighbours because they theoretically could be a pair of spies he is hunting, they'd be taken in for questioning and could easily be arrested whether or not their stories checked out or not.

[Conan Troutman]

That makes sense. I guess potential deflectors would then also lack someone to recruit them. Or having trouble spending the money without being noticed.

[AllyB]

And anyone in a sensitive position for the CIA to try value enough to recruit as an asset would be watched by the KGB. Remember in season 1 Philip marveling at the way top scientists working on important national security matters were free to go about their lives unwatched. It just wasn't like that in Russia.

Edited April 28, 2016 by AllyB

[Anela]

8 hours ago, Maire said:

I'm not so sure they won't push her out over the Atlantic or make her carry the rat jar in her lap. Talk about a no win situation. I thought the episode focused on one story would be boring but it was really well done. I was riveted.

This is what I was thinking. 

I wish this was on netflix (I can't afford Amazon Prime, if it's still there). I want to watch it all over again, without having to wait a week. 

I thought I saw Martha, in last week's preview, call the FBI and tell them that she wanted to be taken in. Did I miss that in this episode, or did they not show it? 

[snarktini]

6 minutes ago, Anela said:

I thought I saw Martha, in last week's preview, call the FBI and tell them that she wanted to be taken in. Did I miss that in this episode, or did they not show it? 

That was tricksy editing. On the phone, Martha said she was in trouble and wanted it to end. The preview made it look like she was saying this to the FBI, but in the episode the call was to her parents and the FBI were listening via a wiretap.

[Anela]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yeah, that's why I kind of love this show so much.  There are no super spies.  They are all just people, they screw up, they get distracted by life, things are missed.  This isn't treated as some movie, because it has the time to show things, not the two hours and out of most spy stories.

Just like I absolutely do not fault Stan for not suspecting his neighbors.  That way would lie madness, suspecting everyone you meet of being a RED, never having a personal. life. 

Both Stan and Philip are good at their jobs, VERY good, but both are also screw ups in many ways.  I do think they will face some music for that.  Both of them, not for mistakes, but for bucking their organizations way too many times.

I thought he suspected them of something in the first episode. Wasn't he searching their garage? I really need to watch it all again.

1 hour ago, JennyMominFL said:

Definitely a stab in the dark on my part , as I have no clue where they are going with her.

Damn this show is good lately. Between watching this and Underground last night I am surprised I didn't have a stroke

I had to google Underground, and now I have something else to look up online. I already watch too much TV. :) I hadn't heard of that one.

4 minutes ago, snarktini said:

That was tricksy editing. On the phone, Martha said she was in trouble and wanted it to end. The preview made it look like she was saying this to the FBI, but in the episode the call was to her parents and the FBI were listening via a wiretap.

Thanks. That's a shame. I was hoping that, as others mentioned, she would contact them and they would go easy on her. 

I felt so bad for her when she was talking about how she would be alone again, just like before she met Phillip. I was back to hating him again - he's finally being honest, but it's too late for her. 

[gwhh]

3 hours ago, jjj said:

It did amaze me that they could not catch Martha in the park, even though it is a big park.  I would have expected every FBI agent, car, and snowmobile to be activated within five minutes to make this happen.  And I would think that whatever route Elizabeth took out of the park would have had to pass by FBI cars, and that Martha would be in the trunk.  I am amazed Elizabeth did not kill her in the park, after seeing no one was around.  I can only think she was taking Philip's feelings into account, as Elizabeth has killed under much more difficult situations. 

I also found it amazing the lack of FBI agents sent to that park.  I mean the show has a budget.  But I think it would have been DEFCON 1 all hands on deck emergency.  I mean every FBI agent at HQ that had a badge and gun would have been handed a photo of Martha and send to the park by train, helicopter, dune buggy, city bus.  What ever it took!   They could had at least made it look like there were trying to find her on the show.

I hope Martha makes it.  That was my grandmother name! 

Edited April 28, 2016 by gwhh

[zibnchy]

I'm pretty sure I didn't breathe during that scene where Elizabeth meets Martha in the park. Elizabeth is straight up terrifying.

Stan and the other guy are just not very good are they? They couldn't find Martha who had to have been in the vicinity of that bridge. It wasn't like she was running away - she was really just wandering around.

Martha got mixed up in this because she fell for Clark basically. Now she faces life in Russia (in the 80s) without Clark. I would not have been surprised if she had jumped. The actress who plays Martha is killing it this year.

[SunnyBeBe]

I can't imagine Martha getting much leniency if she turned herself in.  I would suspect she would get a hefty sentence, but maybe not death.  IF they can prove that her actions caused Gene's death....I think they would skewer her. 

[JennyMominFL]

1 minute ago, zibnchy said:

I'm pretty sure I didn't breathe during that scene where Elizabeth meets Martha in the park. Elizabeth is straight up terrifying.

Stan and the other guy are just not very good are they? They couldn't find Martha who had to have been in the vicinity of that bridge. It wasn't like she was running away - she was really just wandering around.

Martha got mixed up in this because she fell for Clark basically. Now she faces life in Russia (in the 80s) without Clark. I would not have been surprised if she had jumped. The actress who plays Martha is killing it this year.

 

At least perestroika is right around the corner. Although that could be good or bad for her.

[zibnchy]

1 hour ago, millennium said:

 

Quote

What Philip did to Martha was worse than killing her.   He destroyed her.   He destroyed all her hopes, her future, he destroyed her family, he laid waste to her past (poignantly represented by Martha's photo album), he murdered her reputation as a good American, he crushed her soul.

He really did. I kind of hated Matthew right then. And then again when he was denying his feelings for Martha. I don't want that Matthew around. Elizabeth is way terrifying enough.

I LOVE this show too much.

[maczero]

17 minutes ago, gwhh said:

I hope Martha makes it.  That was my grandmother name! 

I'm having Batman v Superman flashbacks.

I know it's mean but I laughed at Martha getting punched in the gut.  You do not mess around with Elizabeth. 
 

I wish Martha would show at least the slightest bit of anger at Clark.  Her entire life is in the toilet and now she learns he's not even going to be by her side.  What will it take for her to say "Fuck you, Clark, Philip, Mikhail, Misha or whoever the hell you are!"  

[Cardie]

To answer a question posed a bit ago, Dylan Baker has been in the opening credits since the season started. Aderholt/Branden Dirden got added right after Annet Mahendru left.

I do not see Martha making it to exile in Moscow--nor the frozen rat taking its bioweapon secrets there either. I anticipate an interception by the FBI or a plane crash. Probably the latter, because Martha alive and talking to the FBI would end the show pretty fast unless, as others have suggested, its future seasons find one or both Jenningses as double agents. 

[Clanstarling]

I had some "fun" with multi-quote, everything nested and I couldn't use html to fix it. So I'm just going to try to remember what I tried to post before.

Stan was totally suspicious of the Jennings in the series opener - he broke into their garage and searched their car. The scene ended with a stunning silhouette of Phillip standing hidden with his gun up and ready. After that, Stan shook off his suspicions for the most part, but is now questioning Paige a bit, so I think they're rising up again.

I had a blood test for my marriage license in 1986 - they tested for STDs as previously mentioned, but also for measles titers (?!) in fact, I had to get a vaccination before the license was granted.

[JennyMominFL]

I have to say that I initially believed Martha was a weak person. I don't think so anymore

[Trillian]

3 hours ago, Knuckles said:

Philip really destroyed a living human being. And his weapon of choice...to use her loneliness against her.. I really hope he faces karmic payback for his cruelty. Given how easily he and Elizabeth have killed in the past, there is something more cruel about this slow flaying of Martha. And all his possible regrets add up to nothing...he returns to his wife and children. As for Elizabeth, that punch carried the full weight of a jealous wife...as well as an angry political fanatic.

Philip did destroy a human being and did use her loneliness against her, but it wasn't cruel, per se, it was his job. I think he regrets it immensely. When he gave her the dignity of an honest answer to her plaintive "not even to visit?", his personal feelings came though clearly. If he was really cruel, he would have followed Elizabeth's advice and said he'd join her in Moscow later so that she'd go more easily. He may get to return to his wife and family, but I think knowing what he did is going to eat him up. 

[Helena Dax]

I think Martha's experience in Russia could be very different from Philby's. For example, during the Spanish Civil War, lots of kids from the Republican side were sent to Russia and as far as I know, they were treated very well. Many of them chose to stay there when they had the chance to come back to Spain. And since Martha's American, showing to the world how happy she is in the USSR would have a great value as propaganda. I don't know, it could go either way. 

But even if she has the best time of her life in Russia, what Philip has done to her is terrible. I'm glad he feels appropriately guilty.

As much as I like her, I LOVED Philip's reaction when Elizabeth asked if he would leave with Martha. He looked honestly baffled by the question, like he couldn't even understand where was that coming from. Ah, those crazy kids.... I just love them. I don't care that they're KGB. 

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, Conan Troutman said:

I always assumed the CIA also had agents like the Jenningses running around in Russia. Still, even if there aren't, I'm not sure the KGB would take even that small risk. So I can definitely see them killing her once they picked her brain. Even if they don't, I doubt she'll be free to do whatever she wants, maybe locked away in one of those bunkers Nina was in. She also doesn't really have a ton of valuable skills. She's a secretary who doesn't speak Russian, so she couldn't even serve as a translator or something.  

You don't have to root for them. Breaking Bad or Hannibal worked just fine without rooting for the protagonist. The one show that didn't work was Dexter, because the show did treat him like a straight up hero, at least in the later seasons. 

That said, I don't really want them to get caught and then locked up, that doesn't sound all that exciting. I'd really like Philip to be turned eventually, with or without Elizabeth knowing. 

When did that happen? I can't remember. Was it related to their wedding?

Yeah, that sounds more realistic to me. Sure, she helped them and maybe that's enough reason not to kill her, but I think the KGB won't be terribly loyal to her. 

Interesting thought. Is that realistic, though? It seems to me like she's somewhat high up the pecking order, were there any defectors/double agents with high ranks? 

I thought maybe she was from the Sovjet equivalent of internal affairs and trying to sniff out potential moles in the Rezidentura or preparing some mission of really high importance or whatever. But of course I know very little about all that stuff. 

Well, I went on a massive reading spree, I've always loved real life spy stuff, and fiction written by former spies as well.  As others have said, the Soviet Union was a very closed society, and not only would our own embedded spies not have anything close to the freedom of P & E, the language problems were immense.  Bob Baer (former CIA station chief, once assigned to Moscow)  said that American's simply didn't have the patience to do nothing but study Russian for 7 years.  You had to be very, very experienced and good to be assigned to Moscow at all, because you are watched 24-7. 

However, we certainly have our Philip's and Elizabeth's in other countries, although I don't think any are super long term, probably 2 years would be about it, 6 months or so more common.

Yes, she and her parents saw Claudia at the wedding.  In disguise, but still.  I honestly don't think they will kill Martha, why?  She's a gold mine about operations and individual agents.  They won't want to kill her parents either, because if Martha balks, which I fully expect her to do, and further betraying her country?  Threats to mom and dad are a Soviet staple.  Aside from that, I seriously doubt she could stand up to interrogation techniques.  At all.

2 hours ago, millennium said:

 

What Philip did to Martha was worse than killing her.   He destroyed her.   He destroyed all her hopes, her future, he destroyed her family, he laid waste to her past (poignantly represented by Martha's photo album), he murdered her reputation as a good American, he crushed her soul.   

I am torn about Martha's future.   I don't want to see her killed, but I don't want her to escape to Russia either.  Throughout the episode I hoped that Stan would find her, and, in some sense, rescue her.  Not from charges of treason, but from the life of faceless despair awaiting her in the USSR.   In my perfect script, Stan captures Martha, brings her back to the FBI and negotiates a lesser sentence if she cooperates.   This would give Martha a chance to redeem herself and maybe in ten years, a second shot at a life.   It would also be a sharp contrast to the treatment Nina received at the hands of the Russians.   Nina and Martha are flip sides of the same coin.  Both used in similar capacities by the other side, both exposed as traitors.   The difference would be in how their respective governments handled the problem.   Russia, a bullet in the head.   America, 10-15 years in a federal prison, then a juicy book deal. 

Stan would throw her ass in prison so fast your head would spin, and it's not Stan's call.  She is a traitor, and she would (again) not be able to stand up to our interrogation techniques either.  Seriously folks, we weren't fluffy cupcakes ourselves.  She'd spend life in a high security prison or be executed and not one person in the FBI would give a damn about that.  She compromised their security, and the country's. 

2 hours ago, AllyB said:

There wouldn't have been much likelihood of that working at all. You are talking about too completely different societies. It sounds a little like propaganda but in Western societies the culture of personal freedom lends itself to allowing agencies like Directorate S to operate. If a new family moves to town, most people just accept whatever their story is. If anybody is suspicious of their new neighbours and reports them to the authorities more often than not the suspicious person is considered nosy or paranoid. Stan, the FBI agent in counter-intelligence, was looking for illegals who used the same car as his new neighbours and his wife mocked him for being nuts.

But in the USSR things were different. Neighbours were encouraged to report on each other. People could never be quite sure that what they said to others was private. If a KGB agent got suspicious of his new neighbours because they theoretically could be a pair of spies he is hunting, they'd be taken in for questioning and could easily be arrested whether or not their stories checked out or not.

Yes, thanks so much, although we did have people in border states who might have slipped over the line here and there for short ops, but certainly not in Moscow.

1 hour ago, AllyB said:

And anyone in a sensitive position for the CIA to try value enough to recruit as an asset would be watched by the KGB. Remember in season 1 Philip marveling at the way top scientists working on important national security matters were free to go about their lives unwatched. It just wasn't like that in Russia.

This too.  The differences of freedom and climate between our countries can't be overestimated.  That's one reason William and the other spies in the USA think that Center, in Russia, really has no clue.  They can read reports until the pigs come home, but if they haven't lived it, I think it doesn't seep into your bones and mind.  On both sides.

I don't know why Philip thinks Martha will be "honored."  She's a dupe, conned into thinking she's in love, probably more pathetic to the powers that be over there than someone who was bribed, or blackmailed, or shared the ideology.  If she makes it, I picture her closely watched, in a regular apartment and many/most shared kitchens and bathrooms with other people.  She'll miss her comforts and the variety of food, and simple things like face cream or Valium or soft sheets, or to pick up the phone and call someone, or enough toilet paper.  The winters will shock her, the inability to simply be free will wear her down.  Even having that much though?  Will depend on her selling out everyone in the FBI she ever met, and not for Philip, for the scary commies she's been raised to fear. 

Thinking about it more?  I don't think she would last very long.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

What Philip did to Martha was worse than killing her.   He destroyed her.   He destroyed all her hopes, her future, he destroyed her family, he laid waste to her past (poignantly represented by Martha's photo album), he murdered her reputation as a good American, he crushed her soul.   

Please don't take this as in any way making Martha responsible for Philip's actions--he's responsible for her situation and he did it on purpose. But there's a reason Martha made the choices she did. I'm not so sure he did crush her soul. I think she was a romantic at heart and couldn't resist the romance she had with Clark. She ignored all the questions she would have had about him early on--as evidenced by the fact that she was terrified when the bug was discovered in ways that indicated she knew it wasn't on the up and up. She chose Clark after she knew he was not FBI. She chose Clark after she knew he killed Gene for her. Nina once talked about Anna Karenina to Stan--Clark even made what could be a subtle allusion to that story when he proposed.

Basically I think Martha's life will end in tragedy and that Philip is responsible for the tragedy, but I'm not so sure she didn't make the choices she did in part because grand tragedy was preferable to a life of quiet desperation. Risk was always part of the appeal with Clark. Philip's choice isn't completely different either. Elizabeth laid out a similar choice for him and he also chose the tragic ending-though I think in his case it was more about the person than the greater meaning.

I honestly can't picture Martha surviving long in Russia. It would make sense to me if the reason she was so calm about the whole thing was that she has no intention of going and just sees her story being over now and is planning to kill herself after she leaves him or something.

It's funny, but there's an interesting contrast to Nina. I think Stan looked at Nina and saw her as the heroine of a romance longing to be swept away because she was beautiful, but in fact Nina was a practical survivor and died because she was trying to keep a part of herself alive. Stan looked at Martha and didn't see the heroine of a romance longing to be swept away because she looked like a secretary. (Also I don't know that Stan even really understands romance heroines a lot of the time anyway!)

[beeble]

I freaking love that while everybody, FBI, KGB, and the audience are all completely tense and on edge. The teenagers, however, are just kicking back and drinking like they're in a Richard Linklater film. 

[preeya]

Martha seems so distraught that I'm of the opinion she will take her own life. I thought she would jump off the bridge when she apparently was contemplating her demise.

[BW Manilowe]

6 hours ago, gwhh said:

I think Elizabeth had something in her pocket (gun or knife) and used that to hit Martha.  If you notice Elizabeth had her hand in her pocket the whole time she was talking to Martha and than took it out and hit her with her hand and used something in her pocket as a blunt object. 

I thought Elizabeth was asking Phillip to go back to the USSR not because he loved Martha like a (wife or like he loves her) but because she wanted to test him on there love for each other.  Also, Elizabeth KNOWS that Phillip has talked about defecting (in the first episode with the guy in the truck) so she knows that one day he WILL defect and she does not want to have to make the choice to defect or kill him! 

I think Page just went next door to hang out and try to act like a normal kid for a while and think maybe she got the hots for Stan son. 

I think Martha would be a a real find for the KGB.  She got what 16 years working at the FBI.  She would know so much inside baseball.  They could always have an accident/suicide/or heart attack after she done spilling her gets to the KGB in the Soviet Union!

What is in that file the KGB lady keeps looking at? 

As I remember, Paige has had something of a crush on Stan's son, Matthew, since S1 (when he was around more than in S2, S3, & this season so far).

[dr pepper]

haven't watched this epsiode yet, hope martha will be alive at the end.

i've figured out the best ending for her.

she changes her name, moves to a small seaside town in new england, tells everyone she's a retired english teacher, and becomes a mystery writer.

[JennyMominFL]

1 minute ago, dr pepper said:

haven't watched this epsiode yet, hope martha will be alive at the end.

i've figured out the best ending for her.

she changes her name, moves to a small seaside town in newengland, tells everyone she's a retired english teacher, and becomes a mystery writer.

 

And then a whole lot of people in her small town die under mysterious circumstances?

[scartact]

I love how one of Elizabeth and Philip's core differences rears itself in how Philip should convince Martha to follow through with the exfiltration plan. I do honestly believe Elizabeth believes lying to Martha that Philip will meet her there is a kindness. If it gets Martha on that plane, then that lie is important. It's completely in line also with how she practices her ideology. Often, for Elizabeth the end justifies the means; though I do think the show wants to test the limits of this for her too.

However, Philip chooses to tell the truth, revealing both his "real" (whatever that means) American name and his given birth name (which is interesting in itself; Philip more likely has been equally both personas at this point in his life now, so whose to say "Mischa" is his most "honest" layer?), and more importantly that he does not plan to follow her to Russia. This is a kindness too, because he does not give her anymore false hope.

I did mentally note that at this point the only thing Martha absolutely does not know is that Philip is married and has a family, so there is still some withholding going on from Philip's end, but I haven't come to much of a conclusion about that, other than perhaps that's the information that would destroy Martha. I guess I need to think about that more.

Anyway I definitely have more to say about this episode in general, but I'll get to that a little later when I have more time! (Not that anyone is eagerly awaiting my commentary, haha.)

[crgirl412]

4 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

You write that in the past tense - as if you are certain they are no longer here. I would guess they still live among us. Do you have any reason for suspecting they are all gone now?

I'm sure that they are still here.  Even more now than before with Putin in charge.  Just a few years ago they discovered the gorgeous Anna Chapman and a few others.  And last month a Russian spy ring was reported to been broken up in NYC in 2015.  http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/10/us/russian-spy-ring-fbi/

[solargal]

8 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The plan is definitely to send Martha to Russia.  Things could go wrong, and probably will, but still, I hope she gets there.  I want my Martha does Moscow story! 

I can envision Martha in Red Square, spinning and throwing her hat in the air, ala Mary Tyler Moore!  'You're gonna make it after all!'

[Ina123]

Robert Hanssen and Aldrich Ames are good examples of how we treat spies in recent years. Three hots and a cot, weight room, TV, etc. I doubt seriously those of ours in Russia are treated as well, that is, if not traded. The difference is East and West. If Martha makes it to the USSR, it won't be a walk in the park.

Interesting article to anyone who is a fan:

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2013-06-01/the-americans-the-real-russian-spies

The Anna Chapman Ring mentioned above.

I think I read that FBI, CIA, etc. take regular polygraphs and bank accounts are watched to help filter "bad" (Gaad's terminology) or dirty employees.

[snarktini]

Wondering what I'd do if I were Martha. I am pretty sure I'd have taken the bridge option. But who knows? My opinion is colored since we viewers have outside knowledge that all her outcomes are terrible: Prison, exile, possible execution. No Clark, no parents, ever. Even her absolute best outcome -- a quiet life behind the Iron Curtain -- sounds miserable to me, all things considered. I'm not a suicidal sort, but I'm also not someone who wants to live at all costs.

[Ina123]

Gee. Easy decision for me. "I'll take life in prison in the US for 1000, Alex." I'll take it even if it's solitary confinement.

Suicide just isn't in my makeup and I'm not going to Russia.

[Darren]

6 hours ago, madam magpie said:

Naw. Like I said, I want them to win. 

But how can they win when we already know how this goes: the Soviet Union collapses like an immense house of cards. I think they're going to have to settle for something far less than victory. And, because the show does try to keep it real (for the most part) I don't see them retiring to a beach in Cuba.

35 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

Robert Hanssen and Aldrich Ames are good examples of how we treat spies in recent years. Three hots and a cot, weight room, TV, etc. I doubt seriously those of ours in Russia are treated as well, that is, if not traded. The difference is East and West. If Martha makes it to the USSR, it won't be a walk in the park.

Interesting article to anyone who is a fan:

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2013-06-01/the-americans-the-real-russian-spies

The Anna Chapman Ring mentioned above.

I think I read that FBI, CIA, etc. take regular polygraphs and bank accounts are watched to help filter "bad" (Gaad's terminology) or dirty employees.

They may do that now, but they certainly didn't back in the day. Ames was spending like it grew on trees - and no one suspected a thing till a whole lot of agents started getting compromised. I mean, in hindsight it was SO OBVIOUS.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Darren

[madam magpie]

8 minutes ago, Darren said:

But how can they win when we already know how this goes: the Soviet Union collapses like an immense house of cards. I think they're going to have to settle for something far less than victory. And, because the show does try to keep it real (for the most part) I don't see them retiring to a beach in Cuba.

I think they have to win, but what "winning" means, I'm not sure. I think it looks something like them shaking off both govts and living a quiet, secret life somewhere. No one knows who they are. They could disappear after the USSR collapses. Phillip and Elizabeth are being pretty manipulated and used by their govt, so I don't see returning to the Motherland or Cuba as winning. They need to figure out a way to live on their own terms, though admittedly, I don't know what those are. Maybe they could move to South America or something, though the kids make it harder...

Edited April 29, 2016 by madam magpie

[micat]

I dunno. Millions of people lived in the USSR. Not all of them were miserable all of the time. I had a close friend who grew up in Ukraine during this period. He said that there were limits to what goods you could get, but he also said he enjoyed his life. He said there were lines for a lot of things, but people got what they needed. He had stories, like that the government would decide when to turn the heat on in their apartment building!  Sometimes they would wait until September or October to turn it on, and people would grumble. So yes, different from the US, where whether or not you have a job, and whether or not it pays enough for you to pay your bills will determine if you can turn on your heat. There were things people didn't talk about, but then there were lots of things people did talk about - just not politics. Millions of people all over the world move to countries where they don't speak the language, and they figure it out and survive, and not all of them are miserable. I have traveled in Russia myself, and I spoke to a bunch of people who spoke rather fondly of the communist times. They seemed to think that it wasn't like now, when everyone is out for themselves and they don't take care of the old folk like they did in the USSR. It sure surprised me, having grown up on the same diet of anti-USSR propaganda that many of you have. It also changed my perspective - that perhaps for ordinary folk it was just life and it had its ups and downs like any life. Now, how Martha will adapt, given that this was not her choice and she has no particular affinity for Russia, who knows?

I agree with some comments above that the Rezidentura lady is up to something. I particularly didn't like it when Arkady came in to tell them that the exfiltration was back on and she said, "We have her?" in a sort of skeptical tone. Like, she seemed to know something about it that she shouldn't if she was on the up and up.

Edited April 29, 2016 by micat

[J-Man]

Why did they keep referring to "Russia" as opposed to the Soviet Union or the USSR? I know that many people continued to use "Russia" as a synonym for the USSR out of habit, but by the 1980s it had pretty much died out. (Of course now we're having to remember to go back to "Russia.") Anyway, it seemed out of character, especially for Philip, to use "Russia."

[scartact]

The one thing that really drives me crazy about this episode is that somehow Stan and Aderholt are within mere miles of Martha, yet somehow they STILL cannot find her. How is that possible? Is that specific park really that large enough that the FBI on their own turf cannot find a runaway secretary; meanwhile, Elizabeth easily finds Martha and walks over to her. I guess I can suspend a disbelief a little further to accept that maybe the KGB had it easier since Philip could better pinpoint her location than they could.

Just when you think we've reached the apex of "Poor Martha", the show finds another way to escalate it. Those phone calls she made to her parents and then to Clark were just killer; as was her final conversation with Clark where she asks him for his real name (I love this moment too; for half of his life, he really was Mikhail/Mischa, but for the other half of it he was Philip, and I don't think you can discount "Philip" as artifice because it's his spy-given name. In a way, he was reborn into that name and has since become it) and later when he reveals to her he will not join her in Russia. Martha really has not looked more tragic and beautiful than in that moment. Such a gorgeous shot.

I think I can ramble on for days about how much I love the Jennings marriage and their scenes, and how great I particularly found Elizabeth to be during these last few episodes as she's taken on a more supporting role to Philip/Martha. I know for some she's a very tough character to like and/or empathize with, but I'm finding so much of her struggles really great fodder for character growth, especially for how it challenges her side of her relationship to Philip and in some ways even to the KGB. For all those times of her steadiness and certainty in what she and Philip fight for, to see how insecure and vulnerable she is with Philip is such a great contrast. Philip reminding her that 1) she's crazy to think he would ever run off with Martha, and 2) he loves her (P&E rarely verbally say this to each other, not even in season one) is also a great reminder for us that while Elizabeth has only begun to love him for as long as the show has been on, Philip carried a torch for her for so many years.

It's really interesting to see Gaad's reactions to Martha, and what really stood out to me is how much he sounded like a jilted lover in that final scene when he learns she married a KGB agent. It makes for a really interesting psychic connection to Elizabeth's feelings of professional/personal betrayal when she finds Philip had shown his face to Martha.

[Ina123]

My cousin traveled to Russia for 2 weeks a couple of years ago and was warned to keep toilet paper with her because she may not be able to find it everywhere. Says a lot to me.

[Ellaria]

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Please don't take this as in any way making Martha responsible for Philip's actions--he's responsible for her situation and he did it on purpose.

Sister Magpie: Just an FYI...the comment that you attributed to me was not mine. If you see my post above, I responded to a comment that Millienium made and I properly attributed to him/her. I don't want to take credit for someone else's words or point of view, particularly because I think it is a thoughtful post.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Ellaria Sand

[Haleth]

If Alison Wright isn't nominated for an Emmy it will be a travesty.  

I wish Martha would wake up and realize how much danger she is in.  I guess it's too late now to try to escape again, but while she was wandering around in the park she should have thought things through.  She works for FBI for crying out loud, she saw what happened to Gene, she isn't so innocent to think things will be alright, especially after C̶l̶a̶r̶k̶ P̶h̶i̶l̶l̶i̶p̶ M̶i̶k̶h̶a̶i̶l̶ Mischa said he couldn't go away with her.  I realize she doesn't know who to trust, Aderholt was investigating her and Stan laughs at her, but her boss was always kind.  Gaad would help bring her in.

14 hours ago, millennium said:

 

What Philip did to Martha was worse than killing her.   He destroyed her.   He destroyed all her hopes, her future, he destroyed her family, he laid waste to her past (poignantly represented by Martha's photo album), he murdered her reputation as a good American, he crushed her soul.   

I am torn about Martha's future.   I don't want to see her killed, but I don't want her to escape to Russia either.  Throughout the episode I hoped that Stan would find her, and, in some sense, rescue her.  Not from charges of treason, but from the life of faceless despair awaiting her in the USSR.   In my perfect script, Stan captures Martha, brings her back to the FBI and negotiates a lesser sentence if she cooperates.   This would give Martha a chance to redeem herself and maybe in ten years, a second shot at a life.   It would also be a sharp contrast to the treatment Nina received at the hands of the Russians.   Nina and Martha are flip sides of the same coin.  Both used in similar capacities by the other side, both exposed as traitors.   The difference would be in how their respective governments handled the problem.   Russia, a bullet in the head.   America, 10-15 years in a federal prison, then a juicy book deal. 

Precisely!

The parallel between Martha and Nina that some posters have noted is interesting.  Martha may not have known what she was getting into initially, but once C̶l̶a̶r̶k̶ P̶h̶i̶l̶l̶i̶p̶ M̶i̶k̶h̶a̶i̶l̶ Mischa pulled off the wig she too embraced her role.  Too bad Stan can't see the connection.

[Clanstarling]

8 hours ago, J-Man said:

Why did they keep referring to "Russia" as opposed to the Soviet Union or the USSR? I know that many people continued to use "Russia" as a synonym for the USSR out of habit, but by the 1980s it had pretty much died out. (Of course now we're having to remember to go back to "Russia.") Anyway, it seemed out of character, especially for Philip, to use "Russia."

We referred to it as the USSR. I imagine within the USSR people referred to it in many ways. Regardless of the political structure, for most of them Russia was the motherland.

7 hours ago, scartact said:

The one thing that really drives me crazy about this episode is that somehow Stan and Aderholt are within mere miles of Martha, yet somehow they STILL cannot find her. How is that possible? Is that specific park really that large enough that the FBI on their own turf cannot find a runaway secretary; meanwhile, Elizabeth easily finds Martha and walks over to her. I guess I can suspend a disbelief a little further to accept that maybe the KGB had it easier since Philip could better pinpoint her location than they could.

Martha told Phillip exactly where she was, at a specific trailhead in a specific park. IIRC that message was also relayed to Elizabeth by the call center woman. So for them, easy peasy. For the FBI "mere miles" is a pretty big search area when you're looking for one person amongst many the days before cell phones. I've had as much trouble finding family members in amusement parks, even with cell phones. 

[wendyg]

babyphat279: The first *fictional* use of the birth certificate method was in the 1970s novel  THE DAY OF THE JACKAL - Frederick Forsyth has written about coming up with the idea for the novel. He actually tested it out and acquired a fake (British) passport, which he later turned over to the authorities. It took a while before that loophole was closed, so it's not surprising if it was a commonly used method. What Forsyth could imagine, surely spy agencies could, too. The advantage of using the DOB and SSN of a dead child is, of course, that you won't come into collision with the real person and have your identity fraud exposed (which happens, even now).

[JennyMominFL]

8 hours ago, micat said:

I dunno. Millions of people lived in the USSR. Not all of them were miserable all of the time. I had a close friend who grew up in Ukraine during this period. He said that there were limits to what goods you could get, but he also said he enjoyed his life. He said there were lines for a lot of things, but people got what they needed. He had stories, like that the government would decide when to turn the heat on in their apartment building!  Sometimes they would wait until September or October to turn it on, and people would grumble. So yes, different from the US, where whether or not you have a job, and whether or not it pays enough for you to pay your bills will determine if you can turn on your heat. There were things people didn't talk about, but then there were lots of things people did talk about - just not politics. Millions of people all over the world move to countries where they don't speak the language, and they figure it out and survive, and not all of them are miserable. I have traveled in Russia myself, and I spoke to a bunch of people who spoke rather fondly of the communist times. They seemed to think that it wasn't like now, when everyone is out for themselves and they don't take care of the old folk like they did in the USSR. It sure surprised me, having grown up on the same diet of anti-USSR propaganda that many of you have. It also changed my perspective - that perhaps for ordinary folk it was just life and it had its ups and downs like any life. Now, how Martha will adapt, given that this was not her choice and she has no particular affinity for Russia, who knows?

I agree with some comments above that the Rezidentura lady is up to something. I particularly didn't like it when Arkady came in to tell them that the exfiltration was back on and she said, "We have her?" in a sort of skeptical tone. Like, she seemed to know something about it that she shouldn't if she was on the up and up.

 

I agree with you. I would have gone to The USSR, especially  the USSR of the 80's.I just finished reading the book Soviet Baby Boomers, which had hundreds  upon hundreds of interviews with citizens ,about their lives from the 50's up to around 2000. A chunk of them preferred life under communism, and these were not party members, just regular citizens. NO, they didn't have a lot of things to choose from in stores but they had what the needed. Communal housing was much less in the 80's than it was in the 60's. In the 60's the housing market was still recovering from the war. A lot of the deprivation in the 50's and 60's was less about communism and more about recovering from war.  While the government told them where to work, there was no real unemployment, No one was homeless ,everyone had medical care, family leave, day care etc.

  Now their stories about their parent's generations were harrowing and life was tough in the 50's and 60's, but most had fond memories of their lives in the USSR. Things didn't get better for most of them when the USSR fell. It got worse and took 10+  years to really get better.  The life expectancy even dropped dramatically in the 90's. As some of them said, yes, there were more things to buy at the store after the fall of communism, but what does that matter when you have no money? I don't know how Martha would do. It would be a shock to the system. The living standards would definitely be lower, but people are more adaptable than you would think.

[JennyMominFL]

8 hours ago, J-Man said:

Why did they keep referring to "Russia" as opposed to the Soviet Union or the USSR? I know that many people continued to use "Russia" as a synonym for the USSR out of habit, but by the 1980s it had pretty much died out. (Of course now we're having to remember to go back to "Russia.") Anyway, it seemed out of character, especially for Philip, to use "Russia."

 

I'm assuming because they are Russian. The USSR was a union of separate  states, with the biggest being Russia.   In the book I just read  the interviewees called it Russia too.  I thnk it's like saying, we could go back to California.

 But also, Russia was almost viewed as an ethnicity . Ukrainians called themselves Ukrainians, and Georgians  called themselves Georgians. IME Soviet citizens still held to their individual nationalities.

[DrSpaceman73]

I don't see Martha being taken to Russia alive.  We have seen before what happens to the people they say they are going to extract. 

But then I am not sure Martha in Russia is such a great plan to save her anyway.  Almost a fate worse than death in the 80s.  She would know no one, be an American in a foreign country where americans are hated.  And that country is on the downside of its existence with less than a decade until it breaks apart. 

 

Also I think they are dragging this out too much.  I wanted this resolved by the end of this episode.  I know its a big storyline but almost two entire episodes straight on this, and still no resolution.  Seems they are dragging it out, slowly.

[scartact]

52 minutes ago, clanstarling said:

Martha told Phillip exactly where she was, at a specific trailhead in a specific park. IIRC that message was also relayed to Elizabeth by the call center woman. So for them, easy peasy. For the FBI "mere miles" is a pretty big search area when you're looking for one person amongst many the days before cell phones. I've had as much trouble finding family members in amusement parks, even with cell phones. 

But even before Philip was able to locate Martha and try to get to her, it appeared the FBI were closer to Martha's vicinity than Philip or Elizabeth. I mean, mind you, I have no concept of how large this park is also, but wouldn't they have called for backup? Or maybe I need to rewatch that scene and figure out the timeline for how everything unfolded. To be fair, the FBI/Stan just took a leap when they began searching the park.

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

I realize she doesn't know who to trust, Aderholt was investigating her and Stan laughs at her, but her boss was always kind.  Gaad would help bring her in.

Ahhh, Philip poisoned Martha's ability to trust her co-workers, when he doctored an audio tape to make it seem that Gaad and others were  making nasty jokes about her appearance.  IIRC, there was a vulgar sexual slant to the (artificially created) jokes, as well.  And Philip played that tape to Martha. It was crucial to persuading her to take spying actions "against" her own office. 

And I guess it would have carry-over, as she stood in that park, alone.

The power and consequences of women's beauty on this show are fascinating.    

And as others have noted -- Martha was at her most beautiful, when she was last seen crying, after Philip told her that no, he would never visit her in Russia.  And it was only then that she looked like the beautiful artist's sketch of her (or as the actress, Alison Wright, actually appears).  As if the make-up, lighting, & camera teams were only then allowing us to see the "real Martha."  Or maybe making sure we had full empathy for her, by making her beautiful.

And I love the show's emphasis on Gaad, and his recent realizations about his past oblivion about Martha's inner life.  I love this show.

Edited April 29, 2016 by RimaTheBirdGirl

[kikaha]

17 hours ago, JennyMominFL said:

The  USSR of the late 60's is very different from the one Martha is going too though.

What if Tatiana is the double agent and she gives up Martha to the FBI?

Philby lived in the USSR till 1988: the same time Martha would be there, if she indeed makes it. 

This whole Martha plotline never made sense to me.  Would the KGB really put so much at risk -- two of its top agents, their handlers, everything they know -- just to save a secretary whose cover is blown?  Especially when a much quicker, more reliable and permanent solution exists?  I didn't realize the KGB  had such a kinder/gentler side to it. 

I always thought I saw romantic sparks between Tatiana and Oleg.  Now that Nina is gone, it won't surprise me to see those two pair up.