S32.E10: I'm Not Here To Make Good Friends

[Guest]

Hey, I'm not woman hating at all.  I just think Julia is currently the most disgusting of the bunch, male or female.  I believe she is even worse than Kyle, and THAT'S saying a lot.  When they showed a close-up of her reading letters in the shelter, it was a huge shock to us, especially to my 13 year old daughter!  The filth was incredible.  Look at that part of the episode again, and you'll see what I mean.

I have a big, nice HD TV and I was watching that scene thinking she looked good.  How they find women who still look pretty in those conditions sometimes amazes me.  She had some bumps on her face but otherwise she looked pretty to me.  I don't think you can scrub off those bumps.  

 

The black nails grossing me out were I think Kyle's in the challenge.  I know they're all going to be filthy out there but I'd be digging at that 1/4" of dirt all day with sticks, if mine looked like his.  

[himela]

Social Media.

And how are their Social media monitored?

[scowl]

The backing off part was indeed brilliant. Often, players don't stop the persuading until they have closed the deal, and in some cases it's the right thing to do. Here, though, leaving Tai to ponder and reflect was absolutely the right approach.

 

But the part before the backing off was also brilliant. This is the technique you use on coworkers who are passively shooting down ideas in meetings: you ask them if they have any better ideas. If they don't they're usually more receptive to the ideas they had been dismissing before. 

[ProfCrash]

Twitter and Facebook pages are easy to monitor. I am sure that CBS has a clause in their contract that requires a CBS employee be allowed access to all pages in order to make sure the players do not give out spoilers. Public accounts are easy enough to follow.

[candall]

LOL, as a Joe fan, I'm just lounging here at my table for one with a good book and my free coffee refills. 

 

This is a season full of surprises.  No reason to change his play at this point, but Joe could still step up with the stealth moxie and impress us all before it's over. 

 

Age & treachery, my man.

[iMonrey]

Something that occurred to me is that Aubrey may have fed some intel to Tai that Scot and Jason neglected to fill him in on - which may have been the deciding factor in his decision to go along with Aubry's vote for Scot. I don't know if they'll show or address this, but consider the fact that Aubry did tell Tai they (the girls) were planning to throw their votes at him to flush out his idol, and that she was proposing a new plan which Julia would not be aware of, since neither she nor Cydney trusted her.

 

Knowing full well Julia was playing double agent, I wonder if Aubry said "see if Scot and Jason tell you the girl's plan to vote for you, since obviously Julia will tell them all about it." Sure enough Julia did tell Jason and Scot and they were fine with it because they said they'd have to get rid of Tai eventually anyway. 

 

So Scot and Jason thought (as far as they knew) all the girls were voting for Tai. Aubry told Tai about it - did Jason and Scot? Do you suppose he asked them "Who do you think they are voting for?" If they didn't spill the plan to him that must have tipped him off that he wasn't really a final three partner for them.

[kassa]

On my HDTV, Julia's skin appeared alternately clear or completely bug bitten, sometimes in the same setting (talking head).  I suspect it has something to do with filters (one camera with a forgiving one, one without), and they probably all look pretty awful (except Cydnee, who always looks like she just had a nice nap and a glass of lemonade).  

 

Maybe they used the camera they normally use on distant wildlife shots in her interview or something. 

Edited April 22, 2016 by kassa

[KimberStormer]

truthaboutluv, on 22 Apr 2016 - 06:18 AM, said:

I have no problems with anyone being shady and sneaky as hell, male or female, on this show. I don't begrudge Julia siding with the duo of dickishness if she truly believed she had a better chance to win with them. That said, other than doing that, what exactly has she really done? What exactly is this amazing game she has been playing that some think she and Aubry are maybe the only ones deserving of a win? And I'm not being facetious, I really don't know.

 

Yes, I've been bored out of my mind for most of this season so it is entirely possible I've missed a few significant things. However, from what I remember of the episodes and what the editing has shown, when Julia got back to the tribe after being gone, she misread the situation and thought she could save herself via that asshole doctor guy. Unfortunately, everyone, including his own former tribe members hated him and she was only saved because Aubry decided to take her chance moving forward with her versus doctor guy who she really hated. 

 

You're misremembering.  Julia is the one who went to Aubry (Scot and Tai did not) and told her Peter had floated Aubry's name, which made Aubry change her vote at the last minute.  One could argue that Julia did exactly to Aubry what Aubry did to Tai this episode: found the crack, inserted the right words, backed off and let the magic happen.

 

I don't tink Julia's playing an "amazing" game, I don't think anybody is this season.  Compared to last season, it's definitely amateur hour.  But most people on Survivor as a whole are like Joe, or China's Denise, or the entire casts of Redemption Island and South Pacific, or [endless list of people who either don't realize they have to do something or don't act on it when they do, and simply vote with their alliance the whole way through].  Most people play as though the Dan Foley Rule was canonical truth, and Flippers Never Win. 

[BarneySays]

Just a couple of thoughts:

 

Debbie cleaned up very nicely.  She looked fabulous at tribal council. 

 

I think Aubry may just trip her way to the million bucks.  I can actually visualize her tripping and stumbling while walking to pick up the check. 

 

Yes, but since it uses both idols, you get the same effect with zero risk if the 2 of them had just played the regular idols

Although it does remove the risk of one of the idol holders reneging (as we witnessed), if there was actual solidarity, it makes no sense to play the idols ordinarily because they would get wasted.  By waiting until the results are tabulated, you don't have to use it unless necessary.

[ellie2205]

There's no reason to be surprised Joe is still in the game - he's completely harmless to the tattoo brothers (because he will never win a challenge other than one that involves first one dropping out wins) and he's got no involvement in strategy.

Hm, yes, that is true.  I guess I didn't mean my question literally.  There is no reason to target Joe, so yes, it makes sense he's still there.  I meant more that when the camera shows Joe, I'm flabberghasted, as in, "I totally forgot about him!  He's still here!  And he's a free vote for whoever he's most loyal to, which right now is Aubry.  That's sweet for her!"

 

I forgot to mention that I'm also surprised he was so okay with going with Aubry because she voted out Debbie last week.  Debbie had to be one of Joe's biggest allies (er, "allies," since he's not actually trying to win or anything) and Joe said a very flat no way when Aubry mentioned her name last week.  Yet even though he knows Aubry just helped to vote out Debbie, he's fine with doing what she says this week.

 

This is a season full of surprises.  No reason to change his play at this point, but Joe could still step up with the stealth moxie and impress us all before it's over.

That would be an awesome turn of events. I mean, I can't imagine it happening in this universe, but it would be great. My husband and I were actually big Joe fans in the first episode. Former FBI, older man but very fit, on the Brains tribe suggesting he values intelligence (although maybe they just put him on there because of the FBI thing)? We thought he could come out and do a lot of damage. But he's just fizzled out. ...SO FAR.

 

Oh, I also meant to add. The Super Idol didn't work in the way that Production probably planned. But it did actually have a pretty big game effect. Without the possibility of the Super Idol, Tai and/or Scot might have played their idols this (or last) tribal. Because they were so certain of the Super Idol's superiority (see what I did there?), Scot didn't even seem to think about playing the one he was holding (Jason's) before the vote. So, Scot got voted out. So in other words, I'm grateful that the Super Idol was in play after all, even though I still think it's a terrible and annoying idea.

 

(I do think it's slightly better in this iteration since, as someone mentioned, you do have to sacrifice two individual "regular" immunity idols in order to use it as a Super Idol.)

Edited April 22, 2016 by ellie2205

[Archery]

Also, I'll say it again: the jerks are certainly hams and delighting in the idea of using that super idol, but they weren't stupid not to play both idols, and they weren't foolishly playing only for the showmanship of it.  If it was stupid not to play their idols before the votes were read today, it was stupid not to play them before the votes were read last week--but last week showed the entire reason not to, because you may not need to.  Much better than playing 2 idols is playing zero idols, and having them to play next time.  They wanted to make the women vote one of their own number out again.  But Julia was ready to be ruthless and lose Cydney, and Aubry was ready to risk it all on Tai.

 

One difference between last week and this is that all three guys had some sort of immunity.  They didn't have to Roshambo for show or combine the SI.  Yes, they were counting on the threat of the SI to keep the girls + Joe in line, but by doing this, they surrendered the decision of who goes home to them.  If it's an eat your own situation, where the girls + Joe are scared that they can't defeat the SI alliance and so won't take a chance on voting for Scot or Tai, then why wouldn't they vote out double agent Julia, who had immunity last week, but doesn't this week?  That would leave the girls + Joe (4) against the guys (3) going into next tribal.  Even without Tai's flip the guys did not have quite enough power to force the girls + Joe to vote out someone who would hurt their own alliance. 

 

Last week, Jason said something like either you pick which one of you goes home or we'll pick.  Well, if the blindside hadn't been an option, I think it would have been Julia. 

[Special K]

 

I forgot to mention that I'm also surprised he was so okay with going with Aubry because she voted out Debbie last week.  Debbie had to be one of Joe's biggest allies (er, "allies," since he's not actually trying to win or anything) and Joe said a very flat no way when Aubry mentioned her name last week.  Yet even though he knows Aubry just helped to vote out Debbie, he's fine with doing what she says this week.

 

 

It's possibly that Joseph Del Campo (see, I just learned his name from previously.tv) promised Debbie he would never vote for her.  His immediate refusal at Aubry's idea suggested that to me. 

 

Either Aubry smoothed things over with him after the Debbie vote, or he just doesn't care that much. OTOH, I can see him doing anything to screw with the BotUT, though, since he's the kind of guy who just can't with that kind of idiocy and nonsense.

[violet and green]

I love Joe, and the fact that he is still there. In so many seasons the 'old guy' or the ancient old breeder who they call 'mum' like she'll be thrilled at 43, etc, is written off in the first eps by the other contestants and/or voted out at the first tribal as they are going to be useless at challenges, it is assumed, c/- their extreme old age. Hahaha.

 

Every time I see Joe gruffing around in the background I get pumped. He's a nice contrast to some of the other men - decent, loyal, fiercely committed to his own values and work ethic, as opposed to fiercely committed to his own overwheening ego, delusions, and narcissistic demands.

 

I like that he's a straight shooter and he can talk with Aubry, which must be partially keeping her from going out of her mind while having to live and converse with all these other dingbats.

 

Whatsisname who won last year also lay really low, didn't shine in challenges, and kept out of making obvious moves for the most part. I don't think Joe is most probably going to win but apart from the fact that - at 72 ffs - he is still there in those conditions,  he is holding his own, by his own values, is making himself useful around camp, and is not a creep. So he has a lot going for him, in my view.

 

He is more than three times Julia's age and surviving in the same awful conditions and managing to look a lot less grubby I might note, and the fact he's not been batting his lashes at those awful men or plotting to murder Mark and is playing a less obvious and clumsy game of 'moves' does not mean he is not playing his own game of steadfastness and endurance. Just because he doesn't get a ton of confessionals doesn't necessarily mean he is not using his wits and noticing things, and he has certainly outlasted a chunk of people already. Go Joe!

[poppy-]

I think Joe has a bad back. That's why he appears to be in shape but flails at every challenges (or preemptively drops out). It also explains why he keeps doing abs works- for back health not appearance or performance.

Just saying, being both old and gimpy makes his continued presence all the more (stealth) impressive.

[Ms Blue Jay]

On my HDTV, Julia's skin appeared alternately clear or completely bug bitten, sometimes in the same setting (talking head).  I suspect it has something to do with filters (one camera with a forgiving one, one without), and they probably all look pretty awful (except Cydnee, who always looks like she just had a nice nap and a glass of lemonade).  

 

LOL!!!!!!!!  Cydney looks like she has somebody who carries lighting around her at all times and a team of men to oil up her bod.  

 

The winner from last year is named JEREMY :)  

Edited April 22, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[iMonrey]

 

I forgot to mention that I'm also surprised he was so okay with going with Aubry because she voted out Debbie last week.  Debbie had to be one of Joe's biggest allies (er, "allies," since he's not actually trying to win or anything) and Joe said a very flat no way when Aubry mentioned her name last week.  Yet even though he knows Aubry just helped to vote out Debbie, he's fine with doing what she says this week.

 

That speaks to how irrelevant he apparently is this season. He refused to go along with the Debbie vote and this week we got zero follow-up on his reaction to it. Nobody in the editing room felt it was important enough to address.

[TonyL]

Whlle it was great tv it was a stupid move for Tai.  I don't think he has a chance of winning now.

 

What?  Did you not see it??  It was the only move he had!  If he gave Scot the super idol, then there would be a tie and Aubrey's alliance would vote him home.

 

Julia and Kyle are next, Tai has an idol so he's safe for one more round.  Competition wise, he's pretty strong so that puts a target on his back for the rest of the game but we'll be at 6 players left.  But, Tai will have his extra vote.  This could be the first time it gets played well.  If so, then Tai totally deserves to win.

One thing I noticed is that Aubry appeared to have her entire hands on the discs and no one else did. I thought for sure she was going to get called out for it.

She's another one who is getting hotter the longer she is on the island.

Joe is...there. If he ever wins an individual challenge I will fall out of my chair.

 

Yep, I saw that too.  I wonder if the crew rigged it to give her an advantage?  I wouldn't be surprised.

[ForeverAlone]

This wasn't the only move Tai had to do; it was just the one he chose to do. If he wanted, he could have stuck with the men's alliance and voted for Aubry, which would have brought the vote to Aubry-3, Scot-3, Tai-2. Scot could have chosen to play his idol as a regular idol before the vote, or Tai could have elected to form a Super Idol to save Scot. Tai is lucky that Scot trusted Tai enough to stay with his alliance, which made him overconfident about the Super Idol, because if Scot had played his idol like a regular one, Tai would have had to play his as a defensive move, or the vote would have been 2/2, and yeah, Tai would have been eliminated on a revote. 

Edited April 23, 2016 by ForeverAlone

[TonyL]

I know that viewers are rooting for Aubry and Julia for playing hard, but I also think that Tai has been playing hard as well. He just blew up his alliance, he found an Idol, he won at least one challenge, he provides food. I think that he could win. 

 

Tai has been playing hard from the beginning.  Wasn't he the first or one of the first players to find an idol?  He played the provider for the group like Ozzie did to bring value to his presence.  He also chose the advantage for the challenge and won it.

[KimberStormer]

Tai has certainly been playing hard.  I don't always agree with his decisions, but he's been playing his heart out every minute he's been out there, which I really appreciate. 

[azshadowwalker]

I have never considered finding idols to be playing hard. Some people both have idols and play hard. Others rely on idols because they don't play hard. Tai isn't on one extreme or the other, but I think he leans towards the latter. Every "big move" he has made has been someone else's idea.

Still, I much prefer him to the waste of a slot embodied by Joe. At least Tai makes those moves others tell him to make. At least he makes the change of alliance when he gets a whiff of some agreeable new "energy". Joe doesn't even know what show he is on based on his stumbling through the game. But, hey, it gives him more time to work on his appearance. I guess that's a positive.

Edited April 23, 2016 by azshadowwalker

[Alapaki]

This wasn't the only move Tai had to do; it was just the one he chose to do. If he wanted, he could have stuck with the men's alliance and voted for Aubry, which would have brought the vote to Aubry-3, Scot-3, Tai-2. Scot could have chosen to play his idol as a regular idol before the vote, or Tai could have elected to form a Super Idol to save Scot. Tai is lucky that Scot trusted Tai enough to stay with his alliance, which made him overconfident about the Super Idol, because if Scot had played his idol like a regular one, Tai would have had to play his as a defensive move, or the vote would have been 2/2, and yeah, Tai would have been eliminated on a revote. 

 

Agreed, especially because Julia told Scot and Jason that the girls (and Joe) were planning on casting all of their votes for Tai.  In order to not have to play their HIIs at all, Scot/Jason needed two of those other five to defect.  They should've realized that would be a long-shot, so that most likely they would be leaving that TC intact, but with no HIIs left (having been forced to play the SII to protect the target of those 5 votes).  

 

Given that, why not eliminate any trust issues whatsoever by having Scot play the HII as a regular HII before the votes were cast.  As you say, that would've left Tai with really no options because he was already told that Julia would be gunning for him so he should've expected at least one vote and possibly two (Aubrey hadn't seemed to account to Tai for Michele's vote).  

 

The fact that this apparently never occurred to Scot may just be the result of his letting his arrogance, and his desire for a Super-gotcha, get in the way of rationality.

[TonyL]

I knew exactly what I was going to find here when I finished the episode but I must admit that I'm not super excited.  It is great, certainly, that Scot went home and Cupcake is in the doghouse.  It is not great that for that to happen, we needed bad play instead of good.  I mean, I'm not upset with the outcome, but I just don't feel like it's a Great Survivor Moment.  Tai continues to play erratically, basically at random; that's not fun for me.  To me a great Survivor moment is a great play.  You can make a case that this was a great play by Aubry, I suppose...but I don't know how much I can believe it was her that flipped Tai, rather than him just doing what he has done all game and played like John Cage, just chance operations.  Not going to the end with Scot and Cupcake is very dumb for Tai.  That was a guaranteed win for him, and I like him in a final immunity challenge against Julia.

 

Oh well!  No more Scot!  Hooray!

 

That's exactly how Survivor is played.  How many alliances have lasted from the first show to the final 3?  I can't remember many, Yul & Becky maybe but that's about it.

 

Alliances change after every TC, that's what makes it challenging.  This is especially true after the merge because people start thinking about who they want to take with them to the final 3.

 

I would agree that Tai not taking Scot & Kyle with him to the final 3 was dumb, but maybe Tai got a gut feeling that the gruesome twosome wouldn't want to take him to the final 3 because he hasn't really made any enemies?  Then, seeing Julia cozy up to the boys probably got him thinking even more.  The final straw was Scot being bossy and not inclusive with Tai.

If Tai would've went along with the GT's plan, the final vote would've been:

 

• Scot: 3
• Aubry: 3
• Tai: 2

 

That would've resulted in a tie.  He's in a power position again to play the SI or not.  Alternatively, he could let the tie play out.  Ironically, he would be holding the power position in a tie as well, because this is how I think the vote in a tie would've gone:

 

• Cydney > Scot
• Jason > Aubry
• Joe > Scot
• Julia > Aubry
• Michele > Scot
• Tai > ???  but probably Scot

•  

He could vote Scot out or force another tie in the revote.  There's no way he'd force a tie in the revote because then all 6 of them minus Kyle would draw rocks.

 

However it's played out, the writing's the on wall for Scot.  At least the way Tai played it, he'll be able use his play to garner favor with the other alliance.

[TonyL]

 

I'm still trying to figure out what Julia was doing.... from all appearances, she appeared to have sided with the boys.  But then she (and Michelle) voted for Tai.  The boys voted for Aubrey.  Everyone else voted for Scott.  By urging Tai to play his idol, did she think he was in danger?  Was she trying to save Tai and get Scott voted out, or was she trying to get Aubrey out and keep her hands clean?  Absolutely no idea what her thought process for.  For all those who said she was playing a great game last episode, I'm really not seeing it.  I don't think she's particularly smart and she appears to have a bad sense of strategy.  The only thing that makes sense is if Scott and Kyle lied to her, and I'm not sure why they would have told her to vote out one of their own alliance.

 

Julia is just an imbecile.  She's young and one dimensional.  All she could wrap her head around was "flush the idol" and not any further beyond that.  Just like how the two boys were set on using their SUPER IDOL of the Universe!

[TonyL]

Yeah I am sorry but Julia is not a  "hanger on"  in any sense of the word. A "hanger on" does not try to play both sides. A "hanger on" doesn't try to make big moves.  A "hanger on" is somebody who literally does nothing. A player who sticks with his or her alliance until the end having done nothing in the game to try to win,  In other words someone like Joe.

 

Joe is a hanger on.  Joe's still in the show right?

[TonyL]

I have never considered finding idols to be playing hard. Some people both have idols and play hard. Others rely on idols because they don't play hard. Tai isn't on one extreme or the other, but I think he leans towards the latter. Every "big move" he has made has been someone else's idea.

Still, I much prefer him to the waste of a slot embodied by Joe. At least Tai makes those moves others tell him to make. At least he makes the change of alliance when he gets a whiff of some agreeable new "energy". Joe doesn't even know what show he is on based on his stumbling through the game. But, hey, it gives him more time to work on his appearance. I guess that's a positive.

 

I'd have to disagree.  I think searching for the idol is playing hard.  Esp if you have to find a way to do it without getting caught.  I'd have to agree with you on Joe.  Sometimes I forget he's still in the game.  If he makes it to F3, he'll be one of the coat-tail riders.  There's almost always a coat-tail rider in the F3.

[LanceM]

Julia is just an imbecile.  She's young and one dimensional.  All she could wrap her head around was "flush the idol" and not any further beyond that.  Just like how the two boys were set on using their SUPER IDOL of the Universe!

 

Are you kidding me? She has explained her long term strategy in two straight episodes. She was planning on going to the final tribal council with both Scot and Jason because the two of them are goats. She has said this MULTIPLE times on the show. That is why she is telling Scot and Jason who the women are voting for so that they can counter act it by playing their idols. Last week it worked and Debbir went home. This week If the plan she put in place worked than Aubry would have went home. That is what Julia wanted. That is why she was telling Tai to play his idol so the 5 votes cast against Tai wouldn't count and Aubry gets voted out.  There is nothing imbecilic about it all. The reason it didn't work was because Aubry got 3 other people to vote with her and vote out Scot.  Julia was blindsided. 

Joe is a hanger on.  Joe's still in the show right?

 

Yep. He is still in the show and has absolutely no chance of winning. So congrats Joe I guess.

[peachmangosteen]

He is more than three times Julia's age and surviving in the same awful conditions and managing to look a lot less grubby I might note, and the fact he's not been batting his lashes at those awful men or plotting to murder Mark ...

 

Not for nothing but Joe actually was a part of the plot last week to kill the chicken after Jason/Scot/Tai went on their sabotage mission. It's in the extra videos on the CBS site/youtube.

[riverheightsnancy]

I have never considered finding idols to be playing hard. Some people both have idols and play hard. Others rely on idols because they don't play hard. Tai isn't on one extreme or the other, but I think he leans towards the latter. Every "big move" he has made has been someone else's idea.

I don't know, maybe it is not playing "hard" but it is playing. He was on the outs with the girls because of it and he had to keep it on the down low, but he STILL found it, due to his own initiative and playing (hard) and putting out effort. I would much rather see that than schlubs laying around the shelter, expecting that the win be just given to them (Lurch and Bounty). I would also contend that Alicia was playing "hard" too and Bounty and Lurch took the idol away from her. I still believe that there should have been some type of penalty for the way that they physically muscled the idol from her. She was much smaller than those two and they used their size against her. I do not think someone should be able to physically touch someone else while they are in pursuit for the idol. It could have changed the game and Alicia was on the losing end because of the actual physicality of the chase for the idol. JMO

[simplyme]

I'll just toss out that generally if you play too hard it's obvious and everyone will vote you out, especially if you are not an alpha male. Women and men who do not fit the traditional alpha mold who are too aggressive tend to be punished for it.

I also can't imagine having to be a tactical genius while starving, putting up with strangers with extreme personalities 24/7 for 39 days, competing in mental and physical challenges, only having slices of the information that viewers have, and having no one you can trust 100%. Oh, let's not forget the lack of sleep and hygiene and the fantastic insects and heat or cold. I think as viewers we tend to dismiss how difficult the everchanging game is and be disappointed that no one is "brilliant" at it.

Personally? They'd have to pay me a lot more than a million dollars, guaranteed, before I put up with some of these people and that's before I factor in how cranky I get with low blood sugar or when sleep deprived.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I think that going for and finding idols is playing hard, but I remember we went through this argument last season too.  How many people have found idols on this season?  3 out 16?  While most of the others sat there like bumps on logs.  Yet idols are not playing hard.. ok...

 

How many people found idols on last season?  2 out of 16, twice each or something like that?  One was the winner, one was 4th place?  Yet finding and using idols is not playing hard.....ok...

Edited April 23, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[Guest]

I don't know if we know if anyone sat there like bumps on logs.  It's not like they show us many fruitless idol searches.  

[JudyObscure]

Yes, season after season we'll hear later that they all searched for idols constantly the first few weeks but generally gave up after looking every place they could think of or after believing they had all been found. This year I thought the men had a slightly better chance at finding and retrieving the idols. If the men are going out gathering fire wood while the women cook and mind the fire it doesn't afford the women as much opportunity and I can't see any of the women able to support another one on her shoulders while she poked a long stick at an idol holder.

I've never been crazy about the idols. They do add some intrigue but when they give an unearned advantage to someone I don't like I hate them. This season when I thought the super idol was going to allow Scot and Jason to pick off all the women I was ready to quit the show altogether. Really I hope we never see the super idol again -- just too much power.

On the other hand I think the individual immunity challenges have been slanted too much in the women's favor the last few years. It seems like they used to alternate balancing and strength/speed challenges but now it's balance after balance and that's very hard for some men, particularly older ones (looking at you Joe.) Remember Rupert's first season? There was a strength challenge where everyone kept having weight added to their backs. Some young blonde -- the one who gave half her flowered skirt to Rupert -- almost beat him. She was awesome. I want to see something where Cydney's strength comes into play before she wastes away.

[riverheightsnancy]

I don't know if we know if anyone sat there like bumps on logs.  It's not like they show us many fruitless idol searches.  

That is a good point, they don't show us everything. During Russell's season(s), they did make a point to show him looking all the time, and I think that was to illustrate why he found so many. Otherwise, it would have looked really suspicious (as if it weren't already). The other awesome new development are the idols hidden at challenges. That adds such an interesting dynamic. Can't wait for the next time this happens. I still contend that there are players who do act like the win should be given to them because of who they are or how they command it of others. I think that Scot fits this description to a degree. 

[Eolivet]

Watched last night and happily relived it reading through this thread. I squealed and clapped, and enjoyed reading others doing the same. Non-Survivor fans don't get it -- I feel like episodes with endings like are like our walkoff homeruns/game-winning touchdowns/buzzer beating jump-shots (sorry, Scot -- not really).

 

I agree with several others in that I actually liked the Super Idol, not for its power, but for its impact on the game. It plays on the idea that idols are inherently selfish and in order to make it more powerful, one needs to be selfless. But I can count the number of times on one hand that someone with only one idol has played it to save another person not themselves. That's why Eric the ice cream guy goes down in history as close to the dumbest move ever -- because it's immunity. In a game where people vote each other out, immunity keeps you in the game. So when you have immunity, you never give it up. Ever.

 

In a way, I feel like this was the bookend to the heartbreaking Yau-man/Dreamz car/immunity necklace broken agreement from Fiji that sent Yau-man home because Dreamz broke his word. Years later, Tai breaks his word (and he didn't even get a car out of it!) and sends the much more odious Scot home. The lesson in both of those cases being you never give up immunity. Ever. Sometimes, it means nice guys go home, but every once in a while, it also means that tools rightfully get screwed.

[needschocolate]

I've never been crazy about the idols. They do add some intrigue but when they give an unearned advantage to someone I don't like I hate them. This season when I thought the super idol was going to allow Scot and Jason to pick off all the women I was ready to quit the show altogether. Really I hope we never see the super idol again -- just too much power.

 

I am okay with the regular idols, as long as there aren't too many of them - if it is possible for one person to find two of them, then there are too many of idols in the game, IMO.  

 

I don't like the super idol, although it does create the possibility of blindsiding someone (convince them not to use it so that it can be a super idol and then not hand them your idol when they need to make a super idol). And I may warm up to the super idol if it was always used to get rid of the biggest jerk in the game and burn the idol of the second biggest jerk, as it did this time.

 

At least this season's super idol is better than the one Tony had, because the super idol requires someone else to give up their idol to save an ally.  If they ever have Tony's idol (the Tyler Perry idol) again, I hope it comes with the stipulation that it can only be used at the next tribal.  

 

I still contend that there are players who do act like the win should be given to them because of who they are or how they command it of others. I think that Scot fits this description to a degree. 

 

I think Scot definitely fits the description.  It seems most seasons have at least one player who seems to forget that everyone else is there to win too. 

[Knuckles]

I rematched this episode last night, and I found it and the previous episode really disturbing. The idea that Jason and Scot are just using intimidation as game play seems off to me....I think this is how these two operate and have always operated. That they found each other on Survivor and teamed up, is no surprise. Like recognizes like. 

Scot is an athlete who has been recognized for his size and ability all his life...and has been rewarded and probably protected from the consequences of his behavior by his school and his teams, because he is valuable player. Jason is a bounty hunter, which, while legal, operates just outside any oversight by more responsible civil authorities.

Besides revealing themselves as just nasty assholes, they move to physical intimidation and destruction easily....and this on national television. Makes you wonder what they do or have done when there are no cameras or production teams to restrain them. Frightening, actually.

[fishcakes]

There is a lot more looking for idols than we're shown, but, not to speak for @Ms Blue Jay, I think that was her larger point, that finding idols is hard and people who spend enough time looking that they do find them are playing hard. The argument that someone is actually a bad player who's coasting on his or her idol does seem to come up a lot, maybe because the people who find idols tend to be more aggressive players who polarize the audience. I think Probst got it right when he said that the audience reaction to the Tyler Perry idol was really dependent on how they felt about Tony, and that's probably true for regular idols as well. When Yau Man and Earl had idols, everyone was like, "yay! Idols! Ha ha, take that Edgardo!" but when Boston Rob had one, the reaction was, "well, of course, he's playing with stupid zombies who are letting him win, plus the camera man pointed his camera right at the idol and showed him where it was."

 

Though it pains me to say it, I'd even have to say Jason had his idol as a result of playing -- although not looking -- hard. Alecia had done the hardest part, finding the clue and the box (? I can't remember if she found the box or Cydney did), but he and Scot, with an assist from Cydney, were willing to skate right up to the line of fair play and snake it away from Alecia. That makes Jason an ass, but not a coaster. The fact that he and Scot then misplayed their advantage so badly is not because they're lazy players but because they're kind of stupid.

 

I am okay with the regular idols, as long as there aren't too many of them - if it is possible for one person to find two of them, then there are too many of idols in the game, IMO.

 

I agree. I think maybe one post-merge HII per season would be enough to keep things interesting.

Edited April 24, 2016 by fishcakes

[henripootel]

At least this season's super idol is better than the one Tony had, because the super idol requires someone else to give up their idol to save an ally.  If they ever have Tony's idol (the Tyler Perry idol) again, I hope it comes with the stipulation that it can only be used at the next tribal.

I like the idea of time limits on idols, or even stipulations like 'you can't use them for yourself'.  Still think the Super HII is too much, I mean it makes a mockery of the whole 'tribe has spoken' thing, even with the time limit.  Speaking of such ...

I think Probst got it right when he said that the audience reaction to the Tyler Perry idol was really dependent on how they felt about Tony

I'd agree if Probst meant 'how you felt about Tony being given a free pass to the finals'.  Given that Probst also deliberately withheld information to help Tony more, it's pretty rich of him to imply that your opinion of his machinations merely depends on if you like the person he handed the win to.  Got news for you Jeffy - I didn't mind Tony, stupid antics and all, but bending the rules for him was total bullshit.  So I guess it doesn't always depend on how you feel about Tony.  I do, however, have clear feelings about Probst helping one player over the others and prevaricating about it.

The other awesome new development are the idols hidden at challenges.

 

I thought that was interesting but it did sorta shift things from finding the idol itself to finding the clue that leads to the idol.  And you'll never, ever find it without the clue, and the clue is pretty specific so finding the clue is pretty much tantamount to finding the idol.  It's not a bad development but I'm not sure I'd go with 'awesome'.

 

I must say I do kinda like the 'needs two idols to make a super one', in theory.  In practice, not so much.

Edited April 24, 2016 by henripootel

[backformore]

OK people. I keep seeing references to the "Tyler Perry idol". What is that?

[needschocolate]

OK people. I keep seeing references to the "Tyler Perry idol". What is that?

 

Tyler Perry suggested that the show add an idol that could be used after the vote - just like the original idols (like in Yul's season) worked.  It is the same way the super idol works but the super idol is made up of two regular idols, while the Tyler Perry idol was a separate idol all by itself.  The Tyler Perry idol was only on one season - Tony found it.

 

I don't remember which season,  I don't remember if Tony used it well, and I don't remember what they called it on the show. I hope someone can fill in the details

[KimberStormer]

Tony never used it per se; him having it mostly meant that nobody else had it to spoil his plans.  And then he bluffed that what made it the "special" idol (the players were aware a special idol was in the game but not what it did) was that it could be used all the way to F3.  As henripootel will be happy to explain, Probst did not say, as he usually does, "this is the last chance to play a hidden immunity idol", which is partly why Spencer at least gave some credit to Tony's claim.

[ForeverAlone]

They "Tyler Perry" idol was used on Cagayan, and it is correct that this is the way the original hidden immunity idols were intended to be used (e.g. they are valid AFTER the votes are read). What is funny, is that this idol has never actually been used, as far as I know. When other contestants knew that someone was in possession of this idol, no one ever voted for them, and therefore they never had to use it to save themselves. The mere threat of the idol was enough to deter people from voting for them. We know Tony won his season, and part of the reason he was never SERIOUSLY considered being voted out (at least towards the end after he got this idol), is because everyone knew he had it, and apparently, he used to flaunt that thing at camp, PLUS he bluffed that it was valid through final four. Yul Kwon on season 13 Cook Islands also had one (and to my knowledge he was the last holder of this particular idol until Cagayan- unless this idol was like this in Fiji, a season I did not watch). His was actually a bit more powerful, only because Cook Islands was the first time there was a final three, and this idol was good through the final four (as it was in previous seasons, but those seasons had a final two). Yul was effectively able to utilize the power of this idol to swing Penner back to his alliance (even though his alliance was in the serious minority at the merge), and he basically sailed into the final three. Terry Dietz on season 12 Panama also had one, but he never had to use it, because his strategy was simply to win challenges to the end, which he did until the final three, where he was voted out. 

[henripootel]

As henripootel will be happy to explain, Probst did not say, as he usually does, "this is the last chance to play a hidden immunity idol", which is partly why Spencer at least gave some credit to Tony's claim.

That's about it.

[Eggman]

They still haven't really made the rules of the Superidol clear. All we saw was that when two idols are joined together, they create a Superidol, which can be used after the votes are read. When they went into TC, Scott had a regular idol, and Tai had a regular idol. Unlike the last TC where Tai had both of them and thus had a Superidol, nobody had a Superidol this time. They vote. Jeffy says "if anyone has a hidden immunity idol blah blah blah". Nobody moves. At that point, my interpretation of the rules would be that neither Scott's idol nor Tai's idol can be used anymore,

 

More to the point, they are still individual Hidden Immunity Idols, which cannot be transferred after the votes are read.  We know that two HIIs can be joined into one SuperIdol, and we know that a SuperIdol can be played after the votes are read, but it's not stated when an HII can be transferred in order to effect a SuperIdol, and every rule we do know about says that an HII cannot be transferred after the reading of the vote. 

 

One thing about the "Yul and before" idol is that although it certainly could save you for one vote, it was difficult to use it to keep an alliance safe because, again, it could not be transferred at the time of use.  You could play it after the votes were read, but you could not TRANSFER it at that time.   You had to be already holding it to play it, so you had to know who the vote was going to be for in order for it to keep an alliance safe.  (Yul actually faced this problem, but he flipped Penner and from then on it was a march to the finish and he kept the idol in his pocket.)

 

Thus, I believe the existing rules clearly state when an HII can be transferred, and the players are *assuming* that playing the SuperIdol post-vote means that a post-vote transfer of the HII is possible.  We don't know if they've been told that this is the case.  Maybe, maybe not.   The show doesn't always reveal rules until it's to their dramatic advantage.

 

What we saw was Scott asking Tai for his HII.  Tai refused the request.  What we don't know is that if Tai had begun to transfer his HII to Scott, would Peachy have then said "ah, no, sorry, shoulda done that sooner."  

 

I doubt we'll know now, since the other traditional rule of thumb is one HII per tribe, and currently there is only one tribe.   Only once, recently, have they re-hidden a second idol after the merge.  Perhaps the possibility of a SuperIdol play would prompt them to do so again.

 

 

 

The true goat is Joe, and Aubry has him firmly in her corner.  It is not unusual for one of the F3 to be that sort of invisible player.

 

To me, Debbie looks like a rotisserie chicken leg that's been lost behind the couch for a month.  No thanks.

[henripootel]

Only once, recently, have they re-hidden a second idol after the merge.  Perhaps the possibility of a SuperIdol play would prompt them to do so again.

Count on it.  No way they're not gonna try and put the Super HII back in play.

Thus, I believe the existing rules clearly state when an HII can be transferred, and the players are *assuming* that playing the SuperIdol post-vote means that a post-vote transfer of the HII is possible.  We don't know if they've been told that this is the case.  Maybe, maybe not.   The show doesn't always reveal rules until it's to their dramatic advantage.

 

 

I think you pretty much nailed the precedent on exchanging HIIs.  It's in keeping with the whole 'once the votes are read the decision is final, the player will be asked to leave immediately' thing, but then the Super HII itself is an exception to this, so there's that.  My guess is that there isn't really a rule in this case, although there is usually, else folks going home with an HII in their pocket might toss it to a friend on their way out.  I'll bet they'll allow a post-vote transfer for the purposes of putting the Super HII in play, primarily because I think they *really* want this in play.

 

Funny - the sequence of gifting and re-gifting the Super HII may allow for could produce some odd results.  What if Scot had given his HII to Tai, expecting Tai to add his own to make a Super HII, then give the Super HII back to Scot?  The effect would have been the same if it'd all gone to plan (Tai was supposed to just hand over his HII, apparently), but what if Tai had made a Super HII and then just kept it?  Scot would have walked out without an HII in his pocket and Tai would be in sole possession of a Super.  That woulda been some shit, but I wonder if production would've allowed that.  

Edited April 25, 2016 by henripootel

[KimberStormer]

I don't see how on earth the Super Idol is Super if you can't play it on whoever you want, post-vote.  Let's say you're Scot and Jason and Tai and you have two idols.  If you know it's Scot who's getting the votes, why not just play one idol on Scot, rather than wasting two to make the super idol?  If you have to hand it over before the votes, then you have to know or guess beforehand who will get voted on, exactly like you do with a regular idol. The only reason to use the two is so you can save any member of your alliance after you've seen the votes.  A Super Idol which must be transferred pre-vote is just a regular idol, but vastly worse because you have to find it twice and at the very least one other person has to know about its existence and give up their power for absolutely nothing.  It's a Sucker Idol, not a Super Idol.  There's no way that could be the rule.

Edited April 25, 2016 by KimberStormer

[phlebas]

I think my favorite moment of this episode was at the beginning when Scot approached Aubry with his grand plan of "vote the way we tell you and I'll go pick mangoes again."  Aubry has Resting Skeptic Face, and her response of (basically) "it's very early in the morning for this" must have been the only way to keep herself from laughing in his place.

 

Tai's game makes less and less sense to me every week.  And Julia is drawing dead and will take Michelle with her unless Michelle gets busy *fast*. 

 

Good luck, Mark...

[Alapaki]

Thus, I believe the existing rules clearly state when an HII can be transferred, and the players are *assuming* that playing the SuperIdol post-vote means that a post-vote transfer of the HII is possible.  We don't know if they've been told that this is the case.  Maybe, maybe not.   The show doesn't always reveal rules until it's to their dramatic advantage.

 

 

From what I've read various places over the years, I think we can be fairly confident that players who hold an "advantage" (whether it be an extra vote, a HII, or whatever) are told exactly how and when it can be used.  From what I understand there is a lot more interactions between the the players and production than we are shown (and, of course, we are shown zero interaction).  For example, my understanding is that after Jeff explains a challenge (in the clip we're shown) there is a break during which the specific rules of the challenge are gone over in detail by production to ensure that everyone understands them.  A challenge is obviously not the same as an "advantage", but the point is the same.  

 

A Super Idol which must be transferred pre-vote is just a regular idol, but vastly worse because you have to find it twice and at the very least one other person has to know about its existence and give up their power for absolutely nothing.  It's a Sucker Idol, not a Super Idol.  There's no way that could be the rule.

 

 

Well, theoretically I think it's possible.  It just moves the timing of that "trust exercise" between Scot and Tai back to the point before they leave for TC (assuming Scot and Tai want to play for a complete blindside) or during TC itself (if they want pure deterrent effect).  That certainly diminishes the potential for the SII to be played as a SII because the player who would be giving up their half (Tai, in this example) would have to be certain that they were already safe.  But, for example, if Scot held 1/2 of the SII and Jason held 1/2, when Jason won the IC he would've been free to hand his 1/2 over to Scot.  

 

But, to my first point above, I think we have to assume that Scot, Tai and Jason all had full and accurate knowledge of how the SII works.  Thus, when we saw Scot asking Tai for the other 1/2 of the SII after the votes were read (unless that was edited completely out of order) we have to assume that the Rules permit that.  Notably, in his EW Q&A, Jeff discussed the fact that if Tai had handed over his HII (given the vote tally) Tai would've most likely gone home on the re-vote.  If it would've been against the Rules for Tai to have done so at that point, I don't see why Jeff wouldn't have simply said that in the Q&A.

[fishcakes]

I don't see how on earth the Super Idol is Super if you can't play it on whoever you want, post-vote.  Let's say you're Scot and Jason and Tai and you have two idols.  If you know it's Scot who's getting the votes, why not just play one idol on Scot, rather than wasting two to make the super idol?  If you have to hand it over before the votes, then you have to know or guess beforehand who will get voted on, exactly like you do with a regular idol. The only reason to use the two is so you can save any member of your alliance after you've seen the votes.  A Super Idol which must be transferred pre-vote is just a regular idol, but vastly worse because you have to find it twice and at the very least one other person has to know about its existence and give up their power for absolutely nothing.  It's a Sucker Idol, not a Super Idol.  There's no way that could be the rule.

 

It's true that not being able to hand it over after the vote would mean that they can't make their entire alliance safe, but I don't think that was ever the intention of the superidol (and if it was, then it's a crap twist, on a par with that fucking Medallion of Power, in terms of dumb ideas).  Requiring that the hand-off come before the vote still makes it better than a regular idol because although you do have to guess correctly as to who's going to be the target, the idol wouldn't be played if the guess was wrong, so you lose the actual target of the vote, but keep the idol. With the regular idol, if you guess wrong, you'd lose both player and idol.

 

No idea what the rule is this season, but there is some precedent that the idol that can be played after a vote has to be handed over before the vote. After Panama, Terry interviewed that the idol had to be transferred at camp before TC, which is worse than just right before the vote because you can't even listen to the discussion at TC and see which way the winds are blowing before deciding who to give it to. With Cook Islands, I believe it was the same, but it's been so long since I saw that season, now I can't remember why I think that. But then in Cagayan, it was different; the Tyler Perry idol could be used only by Tony, and he couldn't give it to anyone. So the rules can vary, and this is the first time we've seen this particular version of the idol, but if the superidol can be created/transferred after the votes are read, then it's way too powerful.