S01.E10: Progeny

[scarynikki12]

Rip tells the team they are headed to the future to take out a powerful ally that Savage needs in order to conquer the world.

 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcapH1ezgg0

[nksarmi]

I am impressed. They didn't go for a fluffy ending and say that Rip got through to the kid - they went with by showing the kid his father was weak, they urged the boy to commit patricide!  I wonder what he will think when Vandall kills him like Rip said he will.

 

I wonder if at this point, the team should just go back to 2016 and focus on changes that might not take out VS but might prevent things like Ray's technology from being developed into an evil robot army and such.

[Lantern7]

As least we didn't have to deal with a ginger with a "D" on his chest. And now I know how to pronounce "Per Degaton." Did parents name their kids "Per" in the Forties?

 

Semi-decent episode. Didn't see Sidney Palmer coming. I guess that makes Ray the Phillip Fry of the team. God knows he's already dorky enough. And the romance between him and Kendra continues with bumps in the road, which is a cute nod to Atom/Hawkman canon.

 

Anybody else want more team members to seriously kill Per outside of Rip and Snart?

[nksarmi]

I don't know what I even think about it all - I was in the middle of a "that's not an accurate representation of Oedipus Rex*" thought when holy crap - the brat killed his dad in his sleep!

 

*Though it does not escape me that Oedipus Rex is ultimately a tale of how you can't escape your fate which really makes me think Rip is going to have to choose between defeating Savage once and for all and saving his family in the end.

[KirkB]

Before the Legends came along the kid grew up to be a monster who unleashed hell on the world and primed it for Savage to take over. By intervening they allowed the same thing to happen (since he was already being counseled by Savage by that point it was already too late to stop that), only five years earlier. In other words by trying to fix things they in fact made them worse. And some of the stuff, like Ray's suit, apparently had nothing to do with the piece he lost in the past since Ray's brother allowed the tech to get out and into Savage's hands any way. I think the Legends need to rethink their MO. As this episode made very clear if they go into a point of time where Savage already knows about them he is prepared, and whenever they go back and try to stop him earlier they seem to make him stronger. I'm not complaining, mind you, I still like the show, but someone should point out to Rip that trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity.

[Goldmoon]

I am trying to like this show but these dingbats are the worst time travelers ever!

Edited April 8, 2016 by Goldmoon

[dkb]

Hawkgirl was oddly sequestered by herself this entire episode. Were they being smart by keeping her on the ship so Savage doesn't sense her or because her memories are supposed to be more important. When they split up in teams at the beginning there was no conversation about her going or not. Or atleast I didn't hear anything.

 

Ugh Carter!

 

I'm really starting to love Ray more and more. Kendra was right, he is always optimistic. Snart and Sara were good as as well.

Edited April 8, 2016 by dkb

[Sakura12]

Rip is the worst Captain ever. I don't know why any of them are listening to him. 

 

Mick sure turned around quickly. I guess he figures he's dead anyway he might as well do something other than be stuck in a box. I had hoped it would've been Sara to get through to Mick instead of Leonard. Just to mix up the pairings. 

 

Haha, poor Ray doomed to be second best in everything. I don't like Ray and Kendra but they are 10x more interesting than Kendra and Carter. He's still a wooden block. But I suppose those boring flashbacks means he's showing up again soon. Why was Ray worried to tell Kendra about a kid he didn't even know about? She's had I think 2 kids if we go by her "I can't believe we tried this again" speech and she didn't remember them until recently. 

 

I don't know why they hired Kaylee to do nothing. They could've had anyone in that role. It would've been better to have her go on the Waverider, just for my Firefly loving self. However Rip is no Captain Tightpants. 

 

And Sara's having erotic sex dreams about the nurse. 

 

Wild West ep!!!

Edited April 8, 2016 by Sakura12

[scarynikki12]

I think the thing I like best about this show is the consistency of the characters.  The show is still very young but, so far, no one has behaved in a way that seems to contradict the person we've been getting to know. 

 

Snart and Mick beating each other up is EXACTLY how I would expect them to kiss and make up.  As anyone who ever saw Prison Break knows, no one can defeat the LincolnSMASH!, and Snart's smart enough to know this so he had to be depending on their long time friendship to save his life. 

 

It's also very in character for Mick to rejoin the team to save his own ass.  He can build a relationship with them at the same time and I'm really looking forward to it.  I really liked his scene with Sara.  So far she's the only one, besides Snart, that he likes and respects.  I do want a scene with Ray ASAP because that was another pairing that left me surprised at how well it worked, but the season's not over yet.

 

I did not miss Carter but I can accept him in flashback mode (do NOT spoil me).  My hope is that these particular memories help Kendra figure out how to finally defeat Savage, even if it's just on an emotional level.  She was isolated for most of the episode but she still had nice scenes with Ray and stepped up when Savage attacked.  I like that her and Ray are able to talk.  They're starting to feel like that couple that many of us know in real life who are together for a bit and then somehow become BFF after they break up.  If they aren't going to be a forever couple, then I hope this is the avenue for their characters.

 

Ray being Fry makes me like him even more.  He should get a memo to Felicity to cease production on any tech that even slightly resembles his suit.  It wouldn't solve the problem but it would certainly take care of that one piece. 

 

I feel like we've reached the point of the series where the team should do the opposite of whatever plan Rip has.  Maybe the results will improve.  Clearly Rip hasn't read any Greek mythology either as one of their classic lessons is that you should NEVER try to stop a prophecy because you'll end up guaranteeing it will come true.  He might be trying to change the future rather than correctly interpret vague ramblings from an Oracle but the idea is still the same. 

 

Caity Lotz looked lovely in that gold top.  I laughed at how flustered Sara got when Gideon began describing her nurse dreams and I got a Sara/Snart moment!  Sara's really the only one who could be the bridge between Snart and Mick and she did an excellent job without seeming like that was her sole function for the episode.  I really enjoyed that Snart basically admitted his crush when Sara found him in the...armory?  I just call it Their Spot since they tend to hang out there the most.  I also like that Sara didn't blink at Snart's admission because she's not stupid and would have picked up on it.  One step closer to my Besties With Benefits dream! 

[justjoan]

 

Did parents name their kids "Per" in the Forties?

 

Presumably in Sweden and Norway they did. "Per" is a perfectly normal Scandinavian name. No idea how it ended up on a Central European kid in the future, though. Maybe his dad was a big fan of skiing or curling?

 

 

I don't know what I even think about it all - I was in the middle of a "that's not an accurate representation of Oedipus Rex*" thought when holy crap - the brat killed his dad in his sleep!

 

Heh, I had the same reaction. Don't rely on Savage for your mythology lessons, kid. He's crazy, evil and apparently likes making up his own weird versions (and that crazy/evil thing is a problem, to be sure). Poor Tor Degaton (kind of? He wasn't exactly good, just less bad than his son). Kids are the worst. Should have sent him to public school.

 

Those were an awful lot of Carter flashbacks. He's going to be lurking in the Old West somewhere, isn't he? Ugh.

[Lady Calypso]

Is it bad that I was on the side of Rip and Snart to kill the kid? Because I do believe that killing a mini Hitler isn't the worst thing, especially if it saves billions of lives. Of course, that could backfire with an even worse mini Hitler being born, but the reasons for killing Per Snickety...I mean Degaton, are pretty valid. I was annoyed with Stein who insisted that they couldn't kill the kid because he's a kid and because Rip's reasons are just to save his own son. I don't know; even though Gideon said that Savage still would have taken over the world, I would think killing the kid would save at least half the lives that would have been killed right away. Honestly, Stein can shove his self righteousness somewhere else, because as much as I like him, this episode he was just annoying. 

 

But, on the other hand, at least Sara made a good point in that she understood what it was like to be brought back from one side (evil, death, whatever) several times. She's the one I'm ok with being hesitant on jumping on the kill bandwagon. 

 

Yeah, I guess after having seven full blissful episodes without Carter, they had to bring him back for flashbacks so we know he'll be back on our screens in the present day (I guess present meaning in our current standing timeline) shortly.

 

Somehow, Ray has become one of my favourites on this show, along with Sara, Snart, and Mick. Hmm. I also really liked Mick's conversation with Sara. It was nice to see those two characters interacting. 

[bettername2come]

Carter Hall looks good in a suit. I cheered for Rip to kill that kid. He was annoying.

[statsgirl]

I didn't like the A story. I hate stories about Bad Seed kids.  James Fallon's research indicates that even kids with the psychopath genes don't express them if there is a kind parent and that kid's dad seemed like a good enough guy.

 

I'm tired of Vandal Savage. May he be dead by the end of this season.

 

Speaking of which, if they kill him then does that mean that Halkman doesn't reincarnate and Kendra gets Ray as her end mate?  Wills she feel guilty about that?  It was pretty stupid of her to tell Ray that she feels like she's cheating on Carter with him.  Yeah, she's confused but keep it to yourself babe.

 

So Ray has a twin brother? And he moved on from Felicity and was banging someone else within two weeks of breaking up with her?  Nice going Palmer.

 

Nice seeing Jewel Staite again.  I think she's hit almost all of my sci fi shows.

 

I liked Rory and Snart beating each other up to deal with it.  Such boys.

[justjoan]

Why was Ray so sure his possible kid had already been born? It wasn't like they were working off a tight time-frame. There were generations between him (and Sidney) and Jewel Staite, so why did it never occur to him that his kid was still a future kid, born after they all go home? Not that it mattered in the end, but it seemed weird to me that he was entirely sure there was a little Ray running around somewhere already, rather than thinking, "hey, cool, clearly I live, go home and start a family."

[Sakura12]

I do like that Mick respects Sara, as he should since she's gone toe to toe with him twice and survived and she's a tiny thing. 

 

Sara sure creates some nice outfits for herself. All of them so far have looked amazing on her. Even the weird future robe thing. 

[CabotCove]

 

So Ray has a twin brother? And he moved on from Felicity and was banging someone else within two weeks of breaking up with her?  Nice going Palmer.

 

It took Felicity the same day, too slow Palmer.

Ray said 2016, he broke up with Felicity in 2015!. Afterwhich he spend half the time being "dead".

Edited April 8, 2016 by WildcardC

[statsgirl]

BkWurm1 and way2interested suggested on the Mind Your Surroundings thread that it was between the time he came back from the dead in November and when Rip appeared to take him away in January.  That works better for me than between breaking up with Felicity and the explosion.

 

Felicity was always in love with Oliver, Ray was her second choice. Whereas poor Ray seems to be second choice for both her and Kendra

 

Sara sure creates some nice outfits for herself. All of them so far have looked amazing on her. Even the weird future robe thing. 

Who knew clothes design was yet another one of her skills.

[CabotCove]

Why was Ray so sure his possible kid had already been born? It wasn't like they were working off a tight time-frame. There were generations between him (and Sidney) and Jewel Staite, so why did it never occur to him that his kid was still a future kid, born after they all go home?

 

Yeah I thought that was weird too, especially for a science/math genius.

[VCRTracking]

I have a big fetish for women in skirtsuits(especially grey ones) so I would have loved that future.

 

Ray finding out it was his brother Sidney that was the famous one reminded me of Futurama where Fry finds out it was his nephew not his brother Yancy who was the first man on Mars.

 

With Supergirl where Kara was evil from red Kryptonite and Sara this episode, the Berlanti shows are really trying to bring back sleeveless turtlenecks.

Edited April 8, 2016 by VCRTracking

[TVHappy9463]

All I got from this episode is Sidney Palmer is coming to Arrow. Oy Vey.

[futurechemist]

The main characters are likable.  That being said, I'm actively rooting for the Time Masters.  Is there any time period that the gang hasn't made worse?

[thuganomics85]

So, not only does Rip and his merry band of time-travelers fail to change things for the better, they actually make it even worse, by speeding up the rise of Savage and Mini Not-Hitler, and cause the outbreak to happen much sooner?  It's a good thing I get a kick out of these characters, because they really suck at their jobs.  At this point, I can't fully blame the Time Masters for throwing the entire book at them, because these guys have pretty much royally fucked over the time-line.

 

Flashbacks with Kendra and Cater are so not what I want from this show.  I was thankful to be rid of his boring ass, but I guess it would make sense for Kendra to still not be over it.  Honestly, I thought Ray would have been more understanding, because I remember Anne's death hitting him very hard, and I would think he would know what it would feel life.  But, whatever.  Kendra is telling him that it's all good and is in no way a replacement for Carter.

 

The whole "To kill or not to kill" went the way I figured, with Rip and Snart for it, Jax and Stein against it, and Sara not wanting to automatically go for the kill, but seeming to understand that it might have to happen.

 

Mick going back to the team is very rushed, but I'm glad the big lug will be back in the fold now.  And I guess I"m willing to hand-wave that all he needed was just to beat the shit out of Snart for a bit.  I really liked his scene with Sara though, because I think in his own way, he really does respect her.

 

Add Mini Hitler to the list of those who are more menacing then Savage.  I'm choosing to believe the only way that tool got the drop on Sara was because she was fighting five guys at once, and he just snuck behind her.  No way he actually outfought her.

 

Not my favorite, but next week looks like it will be more fun.

[nksarmi]

Why was Ray so sure his possible kid had already been born? It wasn't like they were working off a tight time-frame. There were generations between him (and Sidney) and Jewel Staite, so why did it never occur to him that his kid was still a future kid, born after they all go home? Not that it mattered in the end, but it seemed weird to me that he was entirely sure there was a little Ray running around somewhere already, rather than thinking, "hey, cool, clearly I live, go home and start a family."

 

For someone who always looks on the bright side - I would have thought that would be his reaction as well.  However, I think they are operating on some kind of belief that this time line is based on things that happen if they don't make it back since Oliver told them they never came back in Star City 2046.  Or the writers were being a little loose on their script so they could just go for the comedy of it all.  Personally, I don't think Ray is so young or hip that he would use the common vernacular for when a girl stops calling him - so I'm going with this being slightly OOC writing.

[tarotx]

I liked this episode. It wasn't my fav but I'm not a fan of the Hawks and mopey Ray 2 episodes in a row is something I do not want.

 

But I like Rip's want to save his family at all cost and that he couldn't. I liked Sara with Mick and Sara with Snart. I liked the Mick and Rip and Mick and Snart. This is the cast I want for season 2 with a need female cast member. 

 

Firestorm was OK this episode but I really hope that we lose Firestorm. I want the Jax to start being British so I can judge the actor. He has potential but the show not using Firestorm the way the comic fans want is always going to be annoying to read in article and review comments.

 

Also I hope the team as a new leader next season. Rip's an interesting character-he just sucks at being a leader.

 

The little boy is definitely more scary than Vandal. 

Edited April 8, 2016 by tarotx

[feverfew]

I liked this episode. It wasn't my fav but I'm not a fan of the Hawks and mopey Ray 2 episodes in a row is something I do not want.

 

But I like Rip's want to save his family at all cost and that he couldn't. I liked Sara with Mick and Sara with Rory. I liked the Mick and Rip and Mick and Snart. This is the cast I want for season 2 with a need female cast member. 

 

Firestorm was OK this episode but I really hope that we lose Firestorm. I want the Jax to start being British so I can judge the actor. He has potential but the show not using Firestorm the way the comic fans want is always going to be annoying to read in article and review comments.

 

Also I hope the team as a new leader next season. Rip's an interesting character-he just sucks at being a leader.

 

The little boy is definitely more scary than Vandal. 

 

Heh. You mean Sara with Mick and Sara with Rip, right? "Rory" is Mick's last name (I do it all the time too: calls Rip Rory in my head :)) I agree with most of you post except for kicking Rip off as teamleader - I actually like that he is so fallible. A character like a Time Master could easily been too powerful since they know (or can find out) everything, and I like that he keeps messing up, because it makes him more human. He probably should learn to listen to his team mates more often (Sara especially), but like the rest of the team he's on a journey of discovering who he is and what he wants to be too. Rip as a character could too easily have been the exposition fairy, but he's got depth and flaws and bravery in the same measure as the rest of the cast. I like that.

 

One of the things I like the most about this show is that there are consequenses to their actions. And that the show doesn't shy away from showing those - even to the detriment of their hero-building. It makes the show - despite the humour - feel 'older' than it's sibling-shows. That and the fact that casual sex was mentioned without any judgement passed. Was that the first time on either of the three? :)

[darkestboy]

Not my favourite episode and I don't think they did anything too new with the whole 'let's kill a tyrant as a child' type of dilemmas. Wait they made things worse. Good going, Rip.

 

I did find the various viewpoints from Rip, Sara, Snart and so on when it came to dealing with Per interesting but I knew none of them were going to actually kill him.

 

Both Rip and Savage might need lessons in history/mythology etc. Savage won this round I guess.

 

Nice stuff with Kendra and Ray this week. Didn't mind seeing Carter in flashbacks and found it funny when Ray realised that Jewel Staite's character came from his brother's timeline than his own too.

 

Is it me or did Gideon have a lot to do in this episode? Compared to both Jax and Stein who seemed underused this week.

 

Nice scenes with Sara/Mick, Sara/Snart and Mick/Snart in this episode too, 7/10

[Sakura12]

I like that they do actually talk to each other (eventually) about the big things, like a team. They take a vote, try to come up with another plan, split into groups. "Team Science" or "Team Kidnapping" It doesn't always go their way or someone breaks the plan but that is realistic as well. Then they failed and managed accelerate the future's peril. 

 

I liked Sara playing mediator for Leonard and Mick. She's the only one those two would ever think of listening too. I don't think either of them think too highly of Captain Rip. Sara is really doing a lot for this team. She basically fights all their battles by herself and gets the wayward team member back on their side, why isn't she leading the team? 

 

Although I really want to know how Savage got the drop on Sara. I'm going to fanwank that she was fighting six guys by herself and he snuck up behind her like a coward. I really wanted to see Sara fight Savage, since shes' 10x the fighter Kendra is. 

[Gregg247]

They used the old "would you kill Hitler as a baby if you could go back in time?" plot, and somehow still managed to blow it.  Vandal Savage and the kid were right--these guys are weak and ineffective (especially Rip).  Maybe Per Degaton can find Rip's son and the 2 of them can unite in a "my Dad sucks, so let's kill them both" pact.

 

Once again, I have to ask: Why is it that whenever they locate Vandal Savage, they simply try to mess up his latest plan, rather than send Hawkgirl in with that magic knife to kill him once and for all?  That IS the overall mission, right?  Kill Vandal Savage?  And they've established that he just keeps coming back unless Hawkgirl stabs him with that knife.  I wish they'd just get to it already and kill this guy.  Otherwise, it makes the entire team look like morons.

[Sakura12]

Probably because Hawkgirl sucks. If she just swooped in and tried to kill Savage, he'd probably kill her and become more powerful. 

[Primetimer]

And one among them has to decide if he can stomach killing the kid.

Read the story

[Gregg247]

Something else I was thinking during the show last night:  When Rip disappeared with Per, I assumed he'd take him to 15 years in the future and show him how his "mentor" had murdered him and destroyed the world.  If THAT didn't wake the kid up to Vandal's true intentions, then nothing would.  Wouldn't a better ending have been the kid and his father having Vandal arrested by those evil robots and thrown into some kind of futurist jail?

 

For TV purposes, I'm sure he'd have eventually escaped, but at least our heroes would have actually succeeded at something and forced Vandal to regroup and try something else.

[Goldmoon]

I would have had a lot more respect for Rip and a lot more respect for the network and producers if Rip had killed Per.  I believe the only reason they didn't was TPTB's fear that they would lose a portion of their audience if they went with that solutions.  I love Stein and wish he would get used more - and I vote for him as their new leader - and am now only watching for him, Snart, and Mick.

[FurryFury]

That was boring.

 

I don't know what else to add. I almost fell asleep watching this.

[statsgirl]

Also I hope the team as a new leader next season. Rip's an interesting character-he just sucks at being a leader.

Snart. I think it would be very interesting having him as leader.  Stein and Ray are too goody good and Mick isn't smart enough.  I don't think Sara would want to be a leader and Jax and Kendra seem not leader material.

 

Something else I was thinking during the show last night:  When Rip disappeared with Per, I assumed he'd take him to 15 years in the future and show him how his "mentor" had murdered him and destroyed the world.  If THAT didn't wake the kid up to Vandal's true intentions, then nothing would.  Wouldn't a better ending have been the kid and his father having Vandal arrested by those evil robots and thrown into some kind of futurist jail?

That's something I would have liked to have seen. It wouldn't have made any difference to Rip's son because it only counts if Hawkgirl kills Savage but it would have been interesting to see what Evil Kid would have done.  Would he have killed Savage now and still unleashed the virus anyway so he could take over the world himself? (probably)  Or would he have listened to his father more?

[Sakura12]

My vote would be Snart as leader with Sara as his second in command. 

[mrspidey]

Speaking of which, if they kill him then does that mean that Halkman doesn't reincarnate and Kendra gets Ray as her end mate?  

In this life of hers, he already is her end mate. God knows when Carter is going to reincarnate and when he does, it will still take 20 to 30 years for him to mature. Maybe his soul remains in limbo for as long as Kendra stays alive, so that they can reincarnate together. 

Edited April 8, 2016 by mrspidey

[Latverian Diplomat]

Once again, I have to ask: Why is it that whenever they locate Vandal Savage, they simply try to mess up his latest plan, rather than send Hawkgirl in with that magic knife to kill him once and for all?  That IS the overall mission, right?  Kill Vandal Savage?  And they've established that he just keeps coming back unless Hawkgirl stabs him with that knife.  I wish they'd just get to it already and kill this guy.  Otherwise, it makes the entire team look like morons.

FWIW, they don't have the magic knife anymore. Vandal took it out the window with him back in the 50s.

The main characters are likable.  That being said, I'm actively rooting for the Time Masters.  Is there any time period that the gang hasn't made worse?

They put an end to the Hawk experiments in the '50s.

 

That said, they (i.e., Kendra) also lost the magic knife, though that didn't make the timeline worse, just made their main task much harder.

[tessaray]

I don't think it would have mattered if Rip had taken the kid into the future, he already had zero compassion or empathy left inside.

 

I love Sara, Snart, Mick and Rip (when he's not being a complete dumbass), but this show's stories are so lame most of the time. Surely they could have gotten at least a partial win or 2 by this point.  Rip is thinking about this all wrong, instead of trying to defeat Savage (which clearly isn't working), maybe Gideon should have identified people that VS killed who would have made a positive impact on the timeline and gone to help them. 

 

As for the rest, considering how much I hate the flashbacks on Arrow, I was pleasantly surprised with Kendra's memories in this one.  Little Aldus was adorable. Carter was tolerable.  Jewel Staite was wasted.  Ray having an unmentioned identical twin was eye-rolling.  And I'm so very glad Mick is back on the team.

[KirkB]

The Legends have some serious logistical issues. For one, as this episode shows they can't go after Savage any time later than the '70's, since from that point on he not only knows there are time travelers after him but what they look like and how to find and attack their cloaked ship. He knows their technology and their powers. He apparently knows enough not to appear in the history books or to do anything which would alert those time travelers to his presence, which is why the ultra sophisticated Gideon never really seems to know where or when he is except during those specific moments when he is surrounded by too many people for the Legends to get anywhere near him. And to top it all off the only one of them who can actually kill him is also the only one whose presence he can sense from an unspecified distance away, meaning she can not be a part of any sneak attack on him, only without her they can't really stop him. At this rate, I think it's going to take Savage himself doing something monumentally stupid to finally give them a chance.

 

I knew Rip's plan was doomed to failure the moment he suggested it. There was no way going after the kid was going to work. If they'd killed him Savage would've still had access to his father's technology and could have eventually released the virus anyway. By threatening him and then letting him go they played right into Savage's hands by proving what he had been telling the kid all along, his father was weak (too weak to protect him) and the little people were their own worst enemy. They essentially created the monster they were trying to prevent, which is one of my favorite aspects of time travel stories, the self-fulfilling prophecy. 

 

The Time Masters really are morons. They figured out pretty quickly they couldn't control one of their own, apparently have no way to recall or affect the time ship they gave him, and decide the best way to stop him is to train and empower one of his own people and send him out by himself. Which turned out exactly the way anyone with half a brain would expect it to. Now they may finally have found some capable mercs, only to discover that while the Legends may suck at fighting Vandal Savage they're pretty good against everyone else.

Edited April 8, 2016 by KirkB

[Helena Dax]

Wow, that was boring. I mean, well, I liked the scenes with Sara and Snart, it's just I can't stand Kendra or Rip. I'm sick of her stupid love life. It should be interesting, but it isn't. And I wish I could punch Rip in his face. I need someone else in charge at the end of this season.

 

KirkB, Savage still can be hurt, right?. I would kidnap him and leave him on the surface of Venus. He can be inmortal there. 

[KirkB]

Helena Dax, as far as I know, from what we have seen on Flash, Arrow and LoT, yes Savage can be hurt but he heals pretty quickly. And while I agree with your basic premise I don't think Venus is good enough since, theoretically, he could still be retrieved. I say chuck him into the sun and let's see how immortal he REALLY is.

[Kromm]

I would have had a lot more respect for Rip and a lot more respect for the network and producers if Rip had killed Per.  I believe the only reason they didn't was TPTB's fear that they would lose a portion of their audience if they went with that solutions. 

This isn't about a network or pressure, I think. It's a classic scenario/moral dilemma from time travel stories, especially (but not limited to) comic book time travel stories.  Inevitably the lesson is always that you can't turn into what you fear.  Although they do of course often juice it up with notions that sometimes trying to prevent something is actually what causes it to happen. Seems like this is operating using both of those premises. 

 

I'm not saying that they couldn't have gone the other way in the story. Just that if they didn't it wasn't because they'd ever planned to and chickened out. The default for stories like this being to present that dilemma and show it as a trap.

[Trini]

First off, it was hard for me to take the name 'Per Degaton' seriously, and they just kept repeating it over and over.

 

But besides that, I guess this plot was to show the team grappling with (or more like talking about) a moral dilemma? I wasn't impressed. I knew Rip wasn't going to kill the kid; but the real problem was that they said the kidnapping* didn't even change the future much at all - so why would killing him do anything different? From that point, shouldn't they have started to tackle the problem from another angle? And then they just made the situation worse in the end. Great.

 

I had been waiting for Carter to show up, so Yay!

 

Wait -- Gideon can monitor dreams?!? Was that just for that one joke, or will that actually be important later?

 

So Mick is back with the team now? I'm okay with it, I did want Snart and Mick to make up; but that was fast. I was just getting used to the possibilities of him being an antagonist.

 

"We don't need weapons. We have superpowers." = "Oh yeah, we're a comic book show! Let's use up some of that SFX budget we've been saving up!"

 

Well, Tor Degaton's security forces aim as well as Imperial storm troopers.

 

Liking the progression of Ray and Kendra. They have issues, but they're dealing with it.

 

Does Ray have a brother in the comics?

I am trying to like this show but these dingbats are the worst time travelers ever!

 

Yes. But weirdly I kinda like that about this show. It helps if you think of this show a comedy/parody. 

 

 

*(Assuming that they were not giving him back)

[jhlipton]

What was the point of the Kendra/Carter scenes?  We knew they loved each other, and they never showed Aldus' reaction to finding out who his parents really were.
 

Anybody else want more team members to seriously kill Per outside of Rip and Snart?

Is it bad that I was on the side of Rip and Snart to kill the kid?

 
Me.  Rip, as always, makes this all about his son, instead of all the NPCs outside the Collective (BTW, Jax, the corporations started taking over earlier than 2008, but that was the best line of the ep.)  By not killing Per, he killed how many more thousands, if not millions?  He's very weak.
 

I don't know what I even think about it all - I was in the middle of a "that's not an accurate representation of Oedipus Rex*" thought when holy crap - the brat killed his dad in his sleep!

 
I for one am sure glad they never showed Per's mom.  (Savage is soooooooooo subtle, isn't he?  "I'll tell this story, but my face will show you what I really think."  Dumbass.
 
 

Why was Ray so sure his possible kid had already been born? It wasn't like they were working off a tight time-frame.

 
 Further, how did he know it was his brother who started making the ATOM-bots?  They were 140 years from when they were picked up, the turn to Eeeevil could have happened any time in that period. 
 
That said, I didn't think the robots were evil.  It wasn't clear that they killed the purse snatcher, and the people seemed happy and not paranoid.  It was probably Mini-Hitler who made them evil.
 
 

I'm choosing to believe the only way that tool got the drop on Sara was because she was fighting five guys at once, and he just snuck behind her.  No way he actually outfought her.

He defeated her by PLOT!  It would have made more sense for him to get anyone but HawkGirl.

[rubyred]

tarotx wrote:

 

Firestorm was OK this episode but I really hope that we lose Firestorm. I want the Jax to start being British so I can judge the actor. He has potential but the show not using Firestorm the way the comic fans want is always going to be annoying to read in article and review comments.

 

Also I hope the team as a new leader next season. Rip's an interesting character-he just sucks at being a leader.

Funny you mention that - I've been underwhelmed but rooting for the Jax character to become more organic to the team. I had no idea Franz Drameh was British until he popped up on a British miniseries I binged recently on Netflix (River, starring Stellan Skarsgaard and Nicola Walker, recommend!). Knowing now that he's locking down an accent as he's acting (and given his age) has made me more patient. But I don't think the show knows what to do with him, or how to write him. I think there should be more bond-buildling with Stein, so that he gets the benefit of playing off of VG. I don't read the comics so I don't know what's canon for Firestorm. If he's not Firestorm, is there a place on the team for him?

 

The thing I hate about Rip is that Arthur Darvill is being wasted playing him. He's really so good, but here he has to spend so much energy NOT being The Doctor that it takes me out of his scenes. Plus his plans all suck.

[BkWurm1]

Why was Ray so sure his possible kid had already been born? It wasn't like they were working off a tight time-frame. There were generations between him (and Sidney) and Jewel Staite, so why did it never occur to him that his kid was still a future kid, born after they all go home? Not that it mattered in the end, but it seemed weird to me that he was entirely sure there was a little Ray running around somewhere already, rather than thinking, "hey, cool, clearly I live, go home and start a family."

The only thing I can think of is there was some dialogue cut that explained why he jumped to such a radical belief. 

 

 

My vote would be Snart as leader with Sara as his second in command. 

I vote to swap the position of leadership.  Snart may be brilliant at strategy, but I'd prefer Sara to be the deciding voice. 

 

The episode like so many of them had a lot going for it but felt rushed.  Jewel Staite filled her role fine but like SOOO many of the guest actors brought in the Flarrowverse, she was criminally underused.  Still in her short time on screen, I bought into her being willing to take that leap of faith and shut down the robots.  So that's something.   BUT her presence on the show made me miss Firefly and Mal.  You know what he would have done?  He would have killed the kid. 

 

I was against it until Rip and PD had their little heart to heart and it became apparent that there was no redemption coming from him.  He was fully formed in his devotion to VD's teachings.  Yes, yes, Rip had a nice moment when he realized that he had his moral limits to what he would do and had Kaylee not been there to remind me of another show, I probably wouldn't have been so blood thirsty, lol.

 

Ray and Kendra's interaction only reinforces my feelings that they are not going to last.  How can she ever let go of hundreds of lifetimes?  And if she finds another Carter in another time, how will she ever not choose him? 

[nksarmi]

I rather like Rip and it's not like he didn't point out that he's used to working alone.  The man isn't particularly cut out to be their leader but this team isn't exactly cut out to be heroes and I strongly suspect that in the end - Rip is going to lose.  I mean aside from Savage's horrible alteration of Oedipus Rex (who did not set out to kill his father) - it does kind of hit the nail on the head that maybe Savage's rise to power and killing of his family isn't something Rip is going to be able to stop.  And when that moment comes - Rip will become a true hero as will the rest of the team.

 

I suspect that either the team is going to defeat Vandal in Rip's time and he will have to accept the loss of his wife and son or the team will defeat Savage in 2016 and so radically alter the timeline in the process that Rip never meets his wife and his son is never born. Either way Rip loses and is free to accompany the team of future adventures.

[BkWurm1]

I think the sacrifice will be either his family dies or he saves them, but at the cost of not being able to be with them ever again.

[Aeryn13]

This was weird. Kendra`s flashbacks really served no point, just as Ray`s angst about his possible kid that wasn`t. In the end, half an episode was spend on this stuff just for the Ray/Kendra love story that is still horribly rushed and ill-advised. I`m not too much of a fan of shows dragging out the "will they/won`t they" phase of a couple but this is thing with Ray and Kendra has ridiculous pacing. It didn`t give viewers even the least bit of time to become invested in them and now they`re already have big dramatic love wangst.

 

Mick snapping out of it after just one fistfight? Eh, unorganic as well.

 

The kid was so clearly a psycho and portrayed as one, it sucked some of the energy out of those scenes. This show isn`t the first to deal with the "would you kill baby Hitler" question and moral dilemma but when Rip pointed the gun at him, the kid just stood there with a completely blank expression. It seemed like the tone was more "kill him already, are you crazy? look at him". You weren`t really rooting for him to take the moral highground there.

 

And of course, the message of the team`s sheer incompetence at the end again. They never get any real wins and screw up every time mission they ever go on. It`s depressing to watch. 

[Julie335]

I was not enamoured with this episode. I watched it for Sara and Snart, but the Vandal Savage story is dragging this show down. :(

 

I couldn't see them killing a kid so that took the suspense of it as well.

 

I also like Rory now more than I thought I would. I actually didn't think I'd like Snart or Mick when they were first announced. 

 

Finally, this may be unpopular, but I kinda miss vigilante and darker Sara. Not that I want her character to suffer more, she's suffered enough. Perhaps because I feel this show can border on comical even when it's trying to be serious. I want her struggles to feel "real"... and that's harder when the premises can feel silly. 

Edited April 9, 2016 by Julie335