S02.E13: A Cold Day In Hell's Kitchen

[FurryFury]

For me, last season's finale was a massive disappointment, so while I wasn't crazy about this one (too little Frank, too little exploration of the Hand stuff), it was much better.

[blueray]

Just finished the season. Wow that was really good. I had a feeling that Electra was going to be "killed" as she admitted that she had feelings for Matt. I was however, wondering why they would kill such a good character, but then of course I reached the end. Did they use what ever that is to bring her back? I hope she isn't evil, I really don't want to see her evil, but rather a gray character.

 

I liked  that Stick cut the Nubu's head off. And generally seeing more of him this season. I kept thinking that Matt should do it when they were fighting.  Good fight scenes all season.

 

I do wish that Foggy and Matt made up (at least more then they did). I get that Foggy was mad that he was late for the trial, but get over it. Of course the lady that hired Foggy for that job, turns out to be in the cult. I was hoping that  he really did get that on his own, then again something like that there would be a catch. I wonder what Matt is going to do now. Karen is a reporter and Foggy got another job. 

 

Lastly, I'm glad that he finally told Karen, but did it really have to be in last few minutes. Sure it paralleled Iron Man's ending. I was just hoping to get more of a reaction from Karen. Better yet, have her figure it out on her own. She had to suspected, since she heard him talk multiple times as Daredevil.

 

Overall, great season. I really hope it gets renewed.

Edited March 25, 2016 by blueray

[Danny Franks]

A pretty great season finale, in terms of the emotional hits.

 

I knew Elektra was going to die because, let's face it, that's her thing. She was introduced to the comics to make a big impact, both with her entrance and her exit. Same with this show. I felt like we got to explore a lot of Matt's psyche and mindset through her, and we got to see him grow to a stage where he seemingly was able to accept that other people aren't going to conform to what he wants them to be.

 

And she was pretty awesome as a character in her own right. Strong, intelligent, capable. Sure, she was selfish and dangerous and more than a little crazy, but that doesn't mean she wasn't interesting and often sympathetic.  And of course, she'll be back in season 3, I would think. Which is good, because Elodie Yung was tremendous in the role. Slinky, sexy, snarky, captivating.

 

Karen has grown so much this season, and I'm glad that she finally found her niche, as a reporter. Not sure about the story she was writing, but as a way of summing up her season, it worked well. I like that Matt has finally told her the truth, and I just wish we got to see her reaction to all that. I imagine she'll feel some of the same betrayal that Foggy felt, when Matt explains how he can divine emotions and lies, but there'll be a thrill there too. She did idolise Matt, and her moment with Daredevil when he saved her reignited her admiration of him too. And this is obviously unpopular, but I am fully on-board with them revisiting the romance in season 3. Now that Karen is her own woman and she knows Matt's secret (hopefully all of them), they can approach things on a truly equal level, and Matt can be so much more open with her. 

 

But I would like to see the conversation she has with Foggy when she finds out that he's know for so long. Speaking of, I do think Foggy has been very under-utilised this season. He just faded from the show after the court case ended, and that's a real shame. I feel like the Matt/Foggy/Karen triumvirate should be the heart of everything.

 

I enjoyed the bit with the Punisher, although I really don't think the painted on skull fits with this Frank Castle's mindset. He's above that sort of aesthetic consideration. Now he and Matt can seemingly co-exist, what with Matt finally coming to terms with the fact that other people will kill and he can't stop it. I'm not really interested in a Punisher show, though. I have never cared for the character or his methods.

 

I'll flip my shit if they ever do the comic book Karen storyline. I mean, I'll even create a Twitter and start complaining, that's how strongly I feel about it.

 

 

They won't. There's no need, because they've already let Karen find her own place in the world, and they've already made her more interesting than the bland love interest of the comic books. And besides, that storyline was more about Frank Miller's staggering issues with women than anything else. Thankfully, he is nowhere near being involved in this show.

 

This show is gritty enough without resorting to that sort of thing.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I know that this will be massively unpopular, but I don't think Karen should feel betrayed that Matt didn't tell her earlier that he was Daredevil. Why should she feel betrayed? They weren't in a long standing relationship. Until this season, they went out on what? one? two? dates? A few kisses? She's known him less than a year?

 

I can understand why Foggy was angry and felt betrayed. There's history there and years of friendship.

 

Plus, Karen's got her own set of secrets. What happened to her family in Vermont, and that she may(?) have had a hand in it based on her reaction to seeing that clipping that Ben had? Her killing Wesley.  And then there's the number of times she just leaves the office and doesn't tell Matt or Foggy where she's going, where she went, and what she did.

 

At least they didn't drag it out for another season and he finally told her. At least that can't be held against him any longer.

[that one guy]

Of course the lady that hired Foggy for that job, turns out to be in the cult.

 

Nah, that was Jeri Hogarth, from Jessica Jones. She's a sociopath, but not a joiner. I don't see her joining a cult, or believing in anything larger than herself. I was so happy to see her on Daredevil, though, because both shows take place in the same world, in the same neighborhood, at the same time, and each show featured a law firm taking clients in the same police lockup, with the same cop (Brett?) looking on. So it would actually defy credibility if Foggy and Jeri didn't know each other. You just know Jeri was following the Punisher case very closely in the news every day.

[FurryFury]

Why should she feel betrayed?

 

Because he took Frank's case and basically left her and Foggy to deal with it on their own while lying through his teeth about the reason of his absence. This is enough of a reason for a work colleague feel betrayed, and Karen was involved with him emotionally, so it's especially pronounced.

[blueray]

 

Nah, that was Jeri Hogarth, from Jessica Jones. She's a sociopath, but not a joiner.

Oh, maybe it's just me but she looked like the woman that was assisting the Hand in kidnapping Karen and those other people. Then was talking to Nubu.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Oh, maybe it's just me but she looked like the woman that was assisting the Hand in kidnapping Karen and those other people. Then was talking to Nubu.

 

No. Nobu's "assistant" was a redhead, Tyler, and not Carrie Ann Moss, who plays Jeri from Jessica Jones. Tyler is played by Maya Rosewood.

[blueray]

 

No. Nobu's "assistant" was a redhead, Tyler, and not Carrie Ann Moss, who plays Jeri from Jessica Jones. Tyler is played by Maya Rosewood.

Oh I see, I was confused by this. Thank you :)

[GHScorpiosRule]

Oh I see, I was confused by this. Thank you :)

 

 

You're welcome! If you imdb them, you can see that they don't look anything alike!

[AudienceofOne]

I think that stuff was written kinda murky, actually. If they hadn't had Karen hanging around he and Elektra would have obviously been sleeping together, so why didn't they just do that and save the Karen stuff for later, like next season?

 

It just made Matt look like an asshole.

 

Yeah. The finale this season for me, wasn't as exciting and I wasn't flailing like I was last season when I saw Matt in the red Daredevil suit and "flying" with his stick. That was just something so special and fanfuckingtastic for me.

 

Last season was uneven so when it came to the last episode and it was so amazing I couldn't wait for Season 2 and it started off strong. This got so sidetracked with the Elektra stuff that there was no emotional payoff from anything.

 

I didn't believe for a second that Matt saw Elektra as anything other than his manipulative, murderous ex whom he still cared about but wanted to get out of his life. So him suddenly waxing lyrical about how she's the only one who ever knew him and he was not his real self without her and they should run away together - I mean, WTF? And people had a problem with Frank's "if he's capable of hurting you it's because you love him" speech.

 

And they wasted all this screentime on it just so I would care that she died. Well, I didn't. She was nothing more than a plot device. I suppose she gets credit for being TWO plot devices and the MacGuffin one was slightly more interesting. But since she and Matt are not running away together, then of course she dies. And of course this plays into the Hand's Plands (that was deliberate).

 

And now we have to deal with the fact our "hero" just made plans to run away with his ex right before deciding to tell Karen the truth after the ex conveniently died. Which, again, just makes him look like an asshole. But glad you had a backup girlfriend, Matt. Would hate to see you fail to get your leg over.

[AudienceofOne]

Because he took Frank's case and basically left her and Foggy to deal with it on their own while lying through his teeth about the reason of his absence. This is enough of a reason for a work colleague feel betrayed, and Karen was involved with him emotionally, so it's especially pronounced.

 

I agree. Although I would probably go less with betrayed and more with disappointed. There's a scene in the hospital where they're trying to help Frank and the DA is trying to stop them. Matt steps in and just sprays everybody with awesomeness (kind of like he did in the prison with Fisk). And she's looking at him like he's her legal hero. And that's what he is - he's her hero. And then he just leaves suddenly and doesn't really come back. Like, at all. And she knows there's a reason but he won't tell her. All she sees is that he abandons them and this case he was fighting for. And when she does go over to see him, she find strangers in his apartment - one of which is in his bed.

 

And he didn't have to tell her he was Daredevil - although I think he should have and earlier than the final scenes. But he could have told her about Elektra. He could have said that she'd come to him for legal help after pissing off the Yakuza. There were a hundred stories he could tell. But he told her nothing; just left. That's a bit of a deal breaker.

[Actionmage]

Because no one seems to be talking about it, was that Father Lantam who was summarily executed by Tyler?  I would have liked to have known for sure. 

 

Also, no love for Turk helping save the others and putting his own self in harm's way?  Turk may never reform, but if it ever gets back to Turk that it was folks DD saved who were snatched up? Turk will try to shoot Horn-Head the next time he sees him.

 

I was okay through the episode, but when Josie looked like she was gettin' a bit misty, I teared up too. My musketeers have broken up. (At least until next season?)

 

I liked Frank's coda, helping Red with the ninjas, but yeah, I was so angry that the lights weren't actually helpful. I figure the helmet was off so Mr. Cox could have his scene with Ms. Yung without anything blocking his face; I get that. But there was supposed to be more than one weak light and Brett wanted the whole roof lit up, not just the water tower.

 

Stick? Never change, man. You're a sonuvabitch, but you're our sonuvabitch.

 

If Elektra left Matt some cash and Foggy's saved  a good nest egg, maybe the guys can play with the idea of getting the firm back together? Karen can be on loan from the Bulletin.  I want Foggy out of Jeri's reach, if not her paychecks. (Yeah, not exactly fair or doable, but... have you met Ms. Hogarth? I am surprised she doesn't represent Wilson Fisk.)

[WendyCR72]

but... have you met Ms. Hogarth? I am surprised she doesn't represent Wilson Fisk

 

Hey, the series is still young. It could happen!

[GHScorpiosRule]

Because no one seems to be talking about it, was that Father Lantam who was summarily executed by Tyler? I would have liked to have known for sure.

No, that wasn't the priest she killed. It looked like that guy who came to the roof where Frank had tied up Matt. The fellow Marine.

[Bec]

And now we have to deal with the fact our "hero" just made plans to run away with his ex right before deciding to tell Karen the truth after the ex conveniently died.

Yeah, Matt did not come off well there. I wonder if we're supposed to take it that some time has passed after Elektra died, though. First episode back there was a heat wave and when Matt told Karen he's Daredevil it's Christmas. "I'm Daredevil. Merry Christmas!"

 

I know that this will be massively unpopular, but I don't think Karen should feel betrayed that Matt didn't tell her earlier that he was Daredevil.

I have a feeling she would be more accepting of it than Foggy. Because unlike Foggy she knows what it’s like to have secrets. That’s why throughout this season I was pulling for him to tell her. It’s not because I think he owes it to her to reveal all his secrets after knowing her for less than a year. It’s just there’s a certain point when keeping secrets is more trouble than it’s worth and telling someone the truth might actually make your life easier.

 

It just frustrates me to watch people make things harder than it has to be. Even though I get why these characters would be like this. It is a scary thing to tell someone something huge about yourself when you don’t know how they would react. But I think it’ll be okay, so the whole season I was impatient for them to get on with it already.

 

Anyways, doesn't it drive us all a little bit crazy when someone is like "I'm letting you know something is up, but I can't tell you what it is"? That's what Matt did with Karen for most of this season. At least Karen doesn't do that to him, even though she has secrets, too.

 

Either be better at hiding your secrets so people don't even notice, or just tell the truth! Don't half-ass it, people! That's the worst!

[thuganomics85]

I was wondering if there was going to be another attempt of Elektra "dying", because that really is her thing more or less.  I'm just glad it was during an epic fight and it was even saving Matt from certain death.  Also glad the show isn't even bothering to hide that she will be back.  Now, as for her state of mind, that remains to be in question.  I have to think whatever fuckery that is going on with The Hand using that stone coffin and the blood of those creepy kids to resurrect her body, will change her for the worst.  Might even be next season's adversary.  Could be interesting, although I will miss how Matt and Elektra play off one another.

 

Who won't be coming back is Nobu, I have to think.  I doubt The Hand has the power to resurrect a headless corpse.  I knew you were good for something, Stick!

 

Matt finally tells Karen who he is.  Kind of disappointed she didn't figure it out on her own.  I was hoping she was going to be like "Duh, Matt!  I literally saw your face up close and personal a few scenes ago, and you didn't even change your voice!"  Eh, typical comic book goofiness.  I'm just glad it is finally out in the opening, and hopefully this will take their relationship in a different direction.

 

Ha!  I can't believe they are actually going with Foggy joining Hogarth, like I hoped!  That is awesome!  I so can't wait to see what will transpire over this.  Hopefully more crossover potential.  I can just picture Foggy meeting Jessica Jones.  He wouldn't know what to do!

 

Not much of Frank in this one, although he's finally got his shirt and burned down his house, so I guess he's no longer looking back, but going forward.  Not sure if forward will be next season or his own spin-off, but no matter what, I'm sure it will be bloody.

 

Loved Melvin giving Daredevil an early Christmas present.  I hope Melvin keeps showing up whenever Matt needs an upgrade.

 

Poor Turk.

 

Overall, I enjoyed this season a lot and looking forward to a next one hopefully.  The returning cast was great as always, but major props to the casting of Jon Bernthal and Elodie Yung.  They were just spot-on in their roles, and will now always be Frank Castle and Elecktra to me, just like Charlie Cox will always be Daredevil now (sorry, Ben!) 

[tennisgurl]

This was a really good season, and I enjoyed it a whole lot. There were, however, some issues I had with this season, especially as opposed to season one. 

 

For one thing, the ninjas and the Hand never really connected. They were creepy and mysterious, and that was about it. Having Matt be involved with fighting them for a whole half a season kept him separated from the rest of the show, and just kind of dragged. I know they need to build up The Hand for later plots, but this just felt so disconnected from everything else on the show. And its not that it was mystical and weird, I like mystical and weird. It just seemed like the show had two completely different shows being played at once, The Punisher Show, and the Magic Ninja Show. And, until the very end where Frank started picking off ninjas (which was awesome) they never seemed to connect.

 

Also, Foggy got the shaft hard core, especially in the second part of the season. When he and Matt started fighting, he started showing up less, which was too bad. He adds a real human element to the dark grimmness of the show, and I missed the banter he and Matt always had. I really hope next season has Matt realize that his whole "lone wolf cant get involved with people" thing isn't healthy, and he works on making up with Foggy. And I hope Foggy shows up in more of the MCU Netflix series, now that he is set up to be the go to lawyer for superheroes and vigilantes. 

 

That all being said, I really enjoyed this season. I loved the plot with Karen, and all the development she got, I love that Foggy got to show his talents as a lawyers, I love the questioning of  Matt's crusade, there was a lot of great stuff here.

 

I also loved Frank Castle, and Elektra. Like others have said, the casting department deserves all the raises, because those actors were amazing in those parts. I was nervous about the Punisher showing up in this show, because the Punisher is a character it is REALLY hard to get right. But this Punisher? Is great. I got legit chills when he showed up with the skull outfit for the first time. He was awesome, and I am really looking forward to seeing where he goes from here. Elektra is great as well, even if she was tied to the Hand plot. I knew she was going to die, because thats what Elektra does, but it was a good death scene, and we know she is coming back anyway. I can hardly get too upset about her death, when its basically just a quick nap for her.  

 

Ready for season 2! 

[blueray]

Also, Foggy got the shaft hard core, especially in the second part of the season. When he and Matt started fighting, he started showing up less, which was too bad. He adds a real human element to the dark grimmness of the show, and I missed the banter he and Matt always had. I really hope next season has Matt realize that his whole "lone wolf cant get involved with people" thing isn't healthy, and he works on making up with Foggy. And I hope Foggy shows up in more of the MCU Netflix series, now that he is set up to be the go to lawyer for superheroes and vigilantes.

I'm hoping that next season (assuming we get one?) Karen tells Matt that she'll be his friend again only one condition he makes up with Foggy. I was disappointed that they didn't make up this season. Or really have that many scenes together.

Edited March 27, 2016 by blueray

[Morgan of Hed]

I was kinda hoping for the Elektra of Elektra:Assassin but I guess it would have been less interesting to have her kill or mind control everyone in her path without breaking a sweat.

[dwmarch]

I really don't think the painted on skull fits with this Frank Castle's mindset. He's above that sort of aesthetic consideration.

 

As I recall from the comics, the skull has an aesthetic and practical purpose: it is what the bad guys shoot at.

Edited March 29, 2016 by dwmarch

[KaleyFirefly]

I wish they hadn't done Matt/Karen this season, because he is seriously so much better with Elektra. I wanted her to stick around. And I also wanted to see them as a real couple for at least a few episodes. I mean, I guess they kinda were, but I think if hadn't been for him trying to sorta string Karen along, they would have definitely been together together for at least a little bit. The only real romance stuff was in the flashback.

I agree -- I really liked Elektra and the chemistry she had with Matt.

[KaleyFirefly]

Stick

• I'm not sure why he suddenly flipped and wanted to kill Elektra claiming she was out of control. Dude, she was no more out of control than you have been anytime you've appeared. You could have killed her when she was a kid. You could have killed her when she was an adult and you came back into her life off screen. Now, though. You want to kill her. "LOL OK!" 

So, Stick wanted Elektra killed because he knew she was "The Black Sky"? Even though he knew that years ago? But he couldn't kill her as a kid because she had become like a daughter to him? 

[KaleyFirefly]

Deborah Ann Woll's hair has edged out Connie Britton's as what I imagine heaven feels like.

But what about Priyanka Chopra's hair?

[FiveByFive]

So, Stick wanted Elektra killed because he knew she was "The Black Sky"? Even though he knew that years ago? But he couldn't kill her as a kid because she had become like a daughter to him? 

I just figured out what bugged me about this: the way it played on screen was like he decided she needed to die when she chose to be with Matt instead of fight with him and not because of anything she actually did.  What she was doing was fine until she rejected him. Even though that may not have been what they intended if it was I'd have expected Matt to be pissed at Stick. If Stick hadn't of sent an assassin after her she would have been on a plane somewhere else in the world and more than likely just living her life. (As long as she could hide from the Hand and never heard their offer.  Then again, Stick's betrayal helped push her towards the, "YASSS I AM THE BLACK SKY! ROCK ON!")

[Rina99]

I know that this will be massively unpopular, but I don't think Karen should feel betrayed that Matt didn't tell her earlier that he was Daredevil. Why should she feel betrayed? They weren't in a long standing relationship. Until this season, they went out on what? one? two? dates? A few kisses? She's known him less than a year?

 

I can understand why Foggy was angry and felt betrayed. There's history there and years of friendship.

 

Plus, Karen's got her own set of secrets. What happened to her family in Vermont, and that she may(?) have had a hand in it based on her reaction to seeing that clipping that Ben had? Her killing Wesley.  And then there's the number of times she just leaves the office and doesn't tell Matt or Foggy where she's going, where she went, and what she did.

 

At least they didn't drag it out for another season and he finally told her. At least that can't be held against him any longer.

 

I'm 100% with you on that.  I had zero issues with Matt not revealing that he was a vigilante to someone he went on one date with, and I never could get on board with the line of thought that he was constantly hurting her and being a jerk by lying, particularly when, as you highlighted, she has a whole bundle of shit that she's not revealed herself.  

 

Is it bad that I still hope that Nobu finds a way to come back?  He was awesome.  And I loved all the ninja fighting, particularly after enduring the shit that passes for fight choreography on Arrow the past few seasons.  And thank you, show, for not downgrading Matt's skills from last season and remembering that he IS a badass, and shouldn't be frequently losing to day player #25.  I liked that the enemy had to come up with a way to thwart Matt's super hearing to make him vulnerable, AND that they had adversaries that were a believable match for Matt.  

[Dandesun]

Is it bad that I still hope that Nobu finds a way to come back?  He was awesome.  

 

Nobu is a magic ninja. As far as I'm concerned, there's no reason he couldn't come back... even after being decapitated.

 

MAGIC NINJA!!

[theatremouse]

So, Stick wanted Elektra killed because he knew she was "The Black Sky"? Even though he knew that years ago? But he couldn't kill her as a kid because she had become like a daughter to him?

I think what they were going for was he knew she was the Black Sky all along, and that the Black Sky is wicked powerful and wicked dangerous. So as long as she were his protege and basically under his control, that's cool with him. But once she tries to venture off on her own (didn't matter whether it be specifically because of Matt, or with or without Matt), she's too dangerous, hence he wanted her killed at that point. I don't think the "like a daughter" bit factored into the decision at all.

[SnoGirl]

I rewatched the series again, and I'm still disappointed with the lack of Foggy and Matt. Matt and Foggy get closure with the girls (so to say) but not with each other. I hope there wasn't a scene left out of the two of them after everything was said and done.

I also spotted an Easter egg, and proudly without the internet's help! I love reading signs in the background of scenes, I think it's awesome when sets are super decorated to the nines. And at Josie's, when Karen and Foggy are talking about the end of Nelson, Murdock, and Page you can see the title of this episode on one of Josie's chalkboards behind them on the wall. And I do agree, it is a cold day in Hell's Kitchen when Nelson and Murdock are said and done, and especially when Foggy closes the long running tab at Josie's.

[millennium]

I'm very weary of the trope that male superheroes must become romantically involved with their female co-workers.   Are there no women in these large cities besides the one who works at the next desk?  It ruined Arrow and now it looks like this show is headed for a similar fate.

 

I don't like Karen and I'm sorry that so much of this season was devoted to her (especially when more of that time could have been spent on the more interesting character Claire, played by the much better actress Rosario Dawson).   The romance with Matt feels halfhearted and contrived.   She's just not that special that superheroes should be falling for her and newspaper editors handing her a byline and an office -- unless "tall sexy blonde" trumps all other considerations such as lack of personality, lack of professional experience, etc.   How long and hard did that reporter from last season have to work to get and keep that office?   Karen smiles, and it's hers.  Fuck you, dead reporter guy.

 

Daredevil shares some similarities with Batman, including one unfortunate similarity which is the curse of being the least interesting costumed person on the screen.   Just as movie Batmans have been routinely eclipsed by more colorful villains, Daredevil was severely overshadowed by the Punisher and Elektra.    There is something terribly unappealing about a hero who constantly questions himself and his actions, especially alongside two such strong, unremitting personalities.   The only time I really felt like Matt was a living, breathing hero was during those final decisive moments with Elektra, when he admitted that he needed to be Daredevil and that he needed her because she understood that.

 

What an incredible letdown to see Matt go schlepping back to Karen after that scene.   It felt like settling.

 

I have such praise for Elodie Yung.  She sold Elektra from start to finish.   Ditto for the actor who played Punisher.   He wasn't very likeable in The Walking Dead but he was far and away the most sympathetic character in this show.

 

Like many of you, I didn't entirely get the Black Sky concept.   I also think too much was left unexplained -- the weird kids, the hole in the ground, etc.  

 

Stick's final scene with Nobu seemed like an homage to Highlander, complete with the sword tucked inside the coat. .

 

A good season overall but too many ninjas.  Way too many ninjas. 

[FurryFury]

OK, time for an unpopular opinion. Claire's nothing special. Everything that people like about her comes from Rosario Dawson who's indeed fantastic. Actually, she's fantastic enough for me to think that Matt/Claire is objectively the best romantic pairing for Matt. But writing-wise, Karen is a much more interesting character with several great dynamics.

 

That said, why the hell do people pit female characters against each other all the freakin' time? OK, you don't like the Matt/Karen romance. I get it! I don't really like it myself (but I think it's still better than all the "default" romances on superhero shows, see: Oliver/Laurel, Barry/Iris, Kara/James...) You like Matt/Claire and you're pissed Claire is only recurring. But thing is, she was supposed to be recurring, whether Matt loves Karen or Elektra or anybody else. And Karen does have personality. You may not like it, but she does, this is not subjective. 

 

PS As for Arrow, really? I've long since dropped that show, but if anything, it was bad writing that ruined the show, not romance. 

Edited March 30, 2016 by FurryFury

[JustaPerson]

If anything, Olicity (man I hate ship names) was/is (last I checked it seemed the writers got to that one too) one of the few decent things about that show. Once I saw Daredevil, I really saw no reason to keep trying with Arrow. Still relevent IMO, though I haven't seen The Flash see: Arrow (fool me once Greg Berlanti!) -- 

[Rina99]

If anything, Olicity (man I hate ship names) was/is (last I checked it seemed the writers got to that one too) one of the few decent things about that show.

 

 

It was until they actually got together, and the writers ruined everything that was nice about them for melodrama.  But as mentioned above, the core issue is the writing, which is just bad all around now.

 

I wasn't looking forward to them "sexing" up the season as was mentioned in an interview before Season 2 was released, but the romance drama here was miles above what I usually end up with on network tv, let alone what tends to go on with the CW shows.

[millennium]

You like Matt/Claire and you're pissed Claire is only recurring. But thing is, she was supposed to be recurring, whether Matt loves Karen or Elektra or anybody else. And Karen does have personality. You may not like it, but she does, this is not subjective. 

 

PS As for Arrow, really? I've long since dropped that show, but if anything, it was bad writing that ruined the show, not romance. 

 

I like Claire, not necessarily Matt/Claire.   That's not going to work out.  Ever.   Unfortunately the way things stand it seems the character of Claire will probably never be developed beyond being a 24-hour First Aid clinic.   And yes, Rosario is fantastic.

 

Compared to Claire/Rosario and Elektra, Karen's lame.

 

 

It was until they actually got together, and the writers ruined everything that was nice about them for melodrama.  But as mentioned above, the core issue is the writing, which is just bad all around now.

 

 

I think the attention lavished on fucking Olicity came at the expense of the writing.  It's like Olicity determined the course of the show and plots were built around furthering the soap opera angle.   Although the constant pilfering from Batman was another big problem.

Edited March 31, 2016 by millennium

[millennium]

Matt saying "I'm Daredevil" near the end. Karen's face was like "that was so hot". Amen, sister.

 

Given the Frank Miller influence, shouldn't Matt have said, "I'm the goddamn Daredevil."

[Sakura12]

I did see a lot people making fun of Matt going "Hey, Karen, my other girlfriend died so I can be yours again" 

 

I like all the woman on this show. They all have value and are more than just love interests. Their stories paralleled Matt's and were not just about furthering his story. That's rare for me to see. Most shows make everything have to be about the main hero. Yes, it's unrealistic for Karen to become a reporter with an office with no experience. But I have yet to see any character on a tv show go through the realistic steps in a career. The top position is always just handed to them on a platter. 

[FurryFury]

I have no problems with Karen becoming a reporter. Unlike, say, being a lawyer or a doctor it is a profession that doesn't necessarily require a degree or some very specific knowledge (really, in our time, knowing how to google can get you VERY far). Yes, it requires a certain suspension of disbelief, but certainly no more than the fighters of the show winning against impossible odds. 

Edited March 31, 2016 by FurryFury

[Primetimer]

The second season of Netflix's first Marvel series faced rising stakes and diminishing returns.

Read the story

[marcee]

I don't think Matt really meant what he told Elektra. I think he "knew" they were going to die but wanted to give her a reason to fight and a happy ending. She probably didn't believe him anyway - but it was a nice fiction...a bit of a fairytale before they dove headfirst into a sea of ninjas. All she wanted was to feel loved and accepted, so he gave that to her in the end.

[Bec]

Karen really should have googled "how to write a newspaper article". Where the heck were her "who, what, when, where, why, how"? Ellison could have told her to start with making a list of the facts instead of staring at a blank screen for days (Or weeks? Or months?).

 

People vs. Frank Castle was the trial of the century and she had a front-row seat at that, plus insider scoop on facts about it that no one else is privy to. So I can see making an extra effort to get that story out of her.

 

Hey, come on, that thing Karen wrote wasn't that bad for a newbie's first draft. But Ellison is so going to make her write it again, this time with more Punisher in it.

 

And maybe somewhere offscreen, after Ellison put in a bunch of effort to iron out Karen's writing problems, she's going to write an amazing story. Then it makes perfect sense he keeps her on as permanent staff.

 

That's how I'm handwaving this. Show better not have Karen do anymore elementary school essay style writing next season, though. That would blow apart my handwaving story.

[diebartdie]

 

I think most people who've read the DD comics

well I dont read the comic, never have probably never will (I am not "anti-comics", there are comics I read just not super hero one's....even though Im a huge fan of the genre), I want to understand and enjoy a show on its own merits, I dont want to feel the only way I can understand it is if I devote my life to researching and reading the entire back catalogue of DareDevil (or Jessica Jones or The Arrow or Batman). The first season of DD to me was perfect, I loved every minute of it and could hardly wait for season 2! Then, season 2 happened......I didnt exactly hate it but I ended up feeling confused and unfulfilled by it. I did not like the character of Electra, wild people with a mean streak are not appealing to me and I honestly thought Matt seriously wanted to be done with her forever but then, the last episode he's all "let's run away together because only with you to I feel alive!" ugh. Stick loved Electra no wait Stick hated her and wanted her dead and he could have killed her himiself at any point over the past nearly 30 years but he didnt because reasons? The Punisher only kills bad guys....by shooting willy nilly inside a HOSPITAL? Man seriously I loathed this season (except teh stuff with Fisk....and Foggy). Anyway, a show like this has to make sense to ALL the viewers, not just devotees of the comic book.

[Raachel2008]

- I hate ninjas and kung fu crap. Because the fighting never makes sense. Sometimes 6 rapid blows barely phase the opponent, other times one similar blow knocks him out. It is an exhausting way to fight. You have to hit the other guy 20 times to knock him off his feet - and then a few minutes later, he just gets up again. There is no logic to it, on DD or almost any show that features it.

 

 

The problem  with the whole ninja/kung fu stuff is that people beat the shit out of each other but they don't look or act like people who were punched and kicked over and over and over. I know, I know, Matt has a tons of cuts and here and there they showed fading bruises on his arms, but no swollen faces, shut eyes, etc. I mean, people still have all their teeth. Just saying.

 

I don't mind Karen, she has a purpose there, and it works. Her dark past will be her future in the comics, and I'm fine with that. Karen and Matt don't work, though I could see Foggy/Karen IF they made Foggy more than the "weak side kick".

Edited April 11, 2016 by Raachel2008

[mledawn]

I can't fathom how Karen didn't know Matt was Daredevil after he held her face and spoke to her after freeing her from The Hand. Sure Matt has heightened senses, but I'm sure Karen would know his smell.

 

I bingewatched seasons one and two, and really enjoyed the whole thing. I wanted to smack Matt a few times, like so many others did, but I totally got on board with  Karen and Foggy and Claire (and Matt). I'm hooked, and plan on an immediate rewatch.

Edited April 15, 2016 by mledawn

[Nanrad]

I'm very weary of the trope that male superheroes must become romantically involved with their female co-workers.   Are there no women in these large cities besides the one who works at the next desk?  It ruined Arrow and now it looks like this show is headed for a similar fate.

 

I don't like Karen and I'm sorry that so much of this season was devoted to her (especially when more of that time could have been spent on the more interesting character Claire, played by the much better actress Rosario Dawson).   The romance with Matt feels halfhearted and contrived.   She's just not that special that superheroes should be falling for her and newspaper editors handing her a byline and an office -- unless "tall sexy blonde" trumps all other considerations such as lack of personality, lack of professional experience, etc.   How long and hard did that reporter from last season have to work to get and keep that office?   Karen smiles, and it's hers.  Fuck you, dead reporter guy.

 

What an incredible letdown to see Matt go schlepping back to Karen after that scene.   It felt like settling.

TBH, I don't have an issue with this because it seems as if writers, more times than not, have issues developing love interests who aren't originally connected to the story/working with the hero in their day time hours. So, I rather the co-worker/friend than the randomly thrown in love interest that was ill developed. There is also the trust issue too. Many heroes don't just keep their superheroing a secret from people they're interested in/dating, they keep it a secret from friends and family as well due to a variety of reasons. There are so many questions like: when to tell them, how, and are they trust worthy enough to tell? The, how does this person get over the lying even tho it was for a good reason. 

 

Unlike Claire, Karen is way more tied to the plot and, consequently, needs to be featured more. Personal feelings aside, considering Karen's place in the story, it would be sinful as shit to NOT develop her--actually, inexcusable. Superheroes? One liked her romantically and the other cared for her because she showed interest in his life.  What is the criteria for suitable love interest for a superhero? It's one thing to say their incompatible, but not special??? Karen is lacking many things, BUT she wasn't handed shit based on a smile. Did she get more than she deserved? Most likely. Was her attention unearned? No. Karen most likely handed the newspaper one of its biggest stories SINCE Ben died. The editor offered her access to the documents, but after hearing her story and investigating further with her, he saw she had a legit story that WOULD be big. And, like Ben, he sees she has the potential to be a good reporter/journalist. 

 

Also, keep in mind, she only got as far as she did with the editor DUE to Ben. If Ben never spoke about her, she wouldn't even gotten the chance in the first place. Where's the fuck you to Ben??? They often mention how brilliant Ben was as a research AND writer. They also mention that Karen has a long way to go as a writer. 

 

Matt went back to Karen because 1. he likes her 2. Elektra pointed out that the reason their relationship is fulfilling is because she has access that others don't  3. he wants a fulfilling relationship with someone he likes. I honestly don't think it's settling because Matt does like Karen; it may not be as exciting or as intense as Elektra or  has the allure of Claire, but he likes her and does want to be with her. Sometimes you can't be with the one you're madly in love with, but that doesn't mean being with someone else is settling if you have genuine feelings for them. 

 

Also, as another person who has watched 2 full seasons of Arrow and partial seasons of 3 and 4, I will also say that Olicity didn't ruin Arrow, overall bad writing did. There are DOZENS of things that you could point out that infuriating fans that had nothing to do with Olicity or the influence of it, which turned fans away, including myself. 

 

I think the attention lavished on fucking Olicity came at the expense of the writing.  It's like Olicity determined the course of the show and plots were built around furthering the soap opera angle.   Although the constant pilfering from Batman was another big problem.

TBH, I wholeheartedly disagree. Before Olicity became front and center, many fans of the comics who tuned out of the show said that the writing was subpar and Felicity and Olicity weren't issues. It was purely the writing itself. Felicity is most likely a stand in for Laurel's original love interest role--so there was going to be soap opera mess regardless like the S1 triangle or the S2 triangle, which by far, are far more messier than Olicity has ever been, from what I know. 

[Lexxy]

God, I was SO disappointed with this season.  I LOVED the first season so much and expected some drop off, because there's no way a villain can compare with Fisk but this was so bad.  Matt whining about not killing people sounded like the teacher from Charlie Brown after a while.  Karen was seriously getting on my nerves. Every plotline was dull.  Castle was the only interesting part. 

 

My husband and I - both huge comic book nerds, my husband runs a comic book store - and when the credits rolled on the last episode, we both yelled "THANK GOD IT'S OVER"

 

....I didn't like it, is what I'm saying. 

[WendyCR72]

God, I was SO disappointed with this season.  I LOVED the first season so much and expected some drop off, because there's no way a villain can compare with Fisk but this was so bad.  Matt whining about not killing people sounded like the teacher from Charlie Brown after a while.  Karen was seriously getting on my nerves. Every plotline was dull.  Castle was the only interesting part. 

 

My husband and I - both huge comic book nerds, my husband runs a comic book store - and when the credits rolled on the last episode, we both yelled "THANK GOD IT'S OVER"

 

....I didn't like it, is what I'm saying. 

 

I didn't think S2 was as awful as you did (totally your right, though!), but yeah...I much preferred S1 and Fisk, etc. S1, I couldn't watch fast enough (while paradoxically trying to slow down to prolong things!). It took me longer to finish S2.

 

That said, Netflix must be satisfied since the current DD show runners have been tapped for the whole Defenders thing.

[mrspidey]

Loved Stick killing Nobu. The way Stick beheaded him and then put his Katana underneath his trenchcoat was a total Highlander moment and no one will ever convince me that that wasn't intentional. Nope, not going to happen. 

Edited April 24, 2016 by mrspidey

[WendyCR72]

Just a reminder for everyone that the board will be undergoing a major upgrade tomorrow, April 26th, starting around 9:00 a.m. Eastern Time, give or take an hour. The board will be offline for the majority of the day, possibly into the evening.

 

I hope your withdrawal symptoms will not be too severe! (Me, the shakes haven't begun yet!)

[Wouldofshouldof]

On 3/23/2016 at 8:01 AM, Ottis said:

I hate ninjas and kung fu crap. Because the fighting never makes sense. Sometimes 6 rapid blows barely phase the opponent, other times one similar blow knocks him out. It is an exhausting way to fight. You have to hit the other guy 20 times to knock him off his feet - and then a few minutes later, he just gets up again. There is no logic to it, on DD or almost any show that features it.

There were several times over both seasons when the fighting made me laugh out loud.  Matt goes from a higher level of a roof to a lower level by doing the jump-while-spinning-sideways-in-the-air thingy; just jump like a normal person, dude!  Elektra attacks someone by coming at them in a cartwheel, and all I can think is how easy it would be for the bad guy to chop her leg off with his sword while she's mid-flip.  Too many unnecessary moves!

Anyway, I'm on the Matt/Karen train.  I never watched True Blood while it was on, but binge-watched the entire series this past Nov/Dec.  When it ended and I was in withdrawal, I started watching Daredevil for Deborah Ann Woll.  Charlie Cox got me hooked ;)  When Matt told Karen he was DD and the scene faded to black, I shouted "No - I want more!"  Personally I preferred S2, as I never liked Fisk's character and never got what Vanessa saw in him.  

Off to enter Jessica Jones' world now.

[Anela]

On 3/20/2016 at 7:05 PM, theatremouse said:

It sure was nice of all those ninjas on the roof to stop fighting and watch while Matt held Elektra dying and let him have his sad 15 seconds and whatnot.

I loved how they stopped long enough to take a breather, and say a dramatic sentence, before resuming the attempts to kill each other. That sort of thing always makes me laugh.

I loved Punisher turning up at the end, but leaving the killer of Elektra to Matt. 

I was more invested in season one, but I've had trouble focusing on things for most of the year, so I'll give it another chance if/when I get my concentration back. I wasn't impressed with Elektra when she first showed up, but I really liked her in the last few episodes. 

Now I want to watch Jessica Jones again. I loved that.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Anela