S05.E06: The Panic In Central Park

[Cherpumple]

I don't think she would have, but it would fit with her stream of bad choices.

 

I love the "you're going to get murdered" line, but not as much as "you're playing aggressive guitar at me" line during their fight. I really hope I get to use this line myself someday!

 

The big question is, who gets to keep the tiny shelf?

[Hecate7]

I only started watching last season so I had no pre-knowledge of Charlie.  When he asked for the bathroom, I thought he was going to shoplift a dress.  Then I thought he went next door and robbed the place to pay for the dress.  Then I thought he had set up the whole robbery to get Marnie's purse and jewelry.

 

Me, too! I still do. He sounded too much like he knew the guy, and like he was trying to tell him, "no, I'll get the purse and dress and money and jewelry and meet up later--chill!" But the guy didn't want to wait, probably because Charlie has already flaked on him too many times.

[represent]

The actor did a great job right from the beginning of making me feel he was unsafe. 

 

I think I've been watching long enough even though not from the beginning, but did the actor put on a lot of weight and shave his head?

 

Didn't he use to be thinner and have more curly wavy hair?

 

Didn't he show up one time at Hannah's apt. for dinner with a new girlfriend and then Marnie behaved badly?

 

What did he do for a living? Didn't he use to work in some office? Why do I remember Marnie showing up at his job? Did I imagine that?

 

I'm trying to figure out if this is the same guy because I was watching back then but maybe not paying too close attention.

Edited March 29, 2016 by represent

[bilgistic]

I understand being grossed out by walking barefoot in the city, but why is no one bothered by Marnie getting into bed with Hannah while still wearing that SWAMPY-ASS DRESS??

[Maya]

Marnie probably knows Hannah doesn't wear underwear to bed and wants to keep at least one layer of clothing between them :)

[ktwo]

So Marnie freaked about the drug use but not the dealing?

I thought it was more that she freaked out about the heroin but not the cocaine.

[racked]

Oh, I loved it. Lena really knows how to write this character. She's completely obnoxious - that scene in the vintage shop where she actually bragged about how much life experience she's had for her age to the uninterested sales clerk - but I still root for her andenjoy watching her. So so good.

I loved seeing charlie even tho it's sad he's a destitute mess. It was all so good, especially the Desi breakup.

Edited March 29, 2016 by racked

[hoodooznoodooz]

The graffiti in the background, when Marnie and Charlie were first talking, was beautiful.

I loved how the sales person in the shop just stopped listening to Marnie.

I've never heard of a heroin addict gaining weight.

[announcergirl]

You know, for an episode all about Marine, one of the most ridiculous people in all of TV, I actually liked that a lot. Marnie actually showed some self awareness and character growth, even in the midst of her...Marnieness.

It was cool seeing Charlie again, but sad seeing how much his life is messed up. How depressing. Going from future tech king to working some random job and having a drug problem. I assume this is the last we see of Charlie, but I hope we see him sext season or something...

"Sext season" - Freudian slip dear?

[tennisgurl]

My favorite scene was probably between the saleswoman and Marnie. She had Marnies number so hard. 

 

 

"Sext season" - Freudian slip dear?

......damn you Charlie and your beard! Why did I find you weirdly attractive, other than the whole drugs thing! 

Edited March 29, 2016 by tennisgurl

[announcergirl]

I understand being grossed out by walking barefoot in the city, but why is no one bothered by Marnie getting into bed with Hannah while still wearing that SWAMPY-ASS DRESS??

I am. And, they were kissing and screwing. They had to be funky. And, she put her feet in that nasty tub. And she used that crabby-ass towel. Then got into bed with Hannah. She had to be stank.

Note: Word choices in this post are deliberate to emphasis how malodorous it had to have been. Just rancid.

Edited March 29, 2016 by announcergirl

[announcergirl]

Tennisgurl

My favorite scene was probably between the saleswoman and Marnie. She had Marnies number so hard.

......damn you Charlie and your beard! Why did I find you weirdly attractive, other than the whole drugs thing!

Minus the drugs, he was totally fuckable.

The story really gave me hope of one day getting my ex back- and then dumping him. Talk about a dream sequence!!!

Edited March 29, 2016 by announcergirl

[bilgistic]

I am. And, they were kissing and screwing. They had to be funky. And, she put her feet in that nasty tub. And she used that crabby-ass towel. Then got into bed with Hannah. She had to be stank.

Note: Word choices in this post ate deliberate to emphasis how malodorous it had to have been. Just rancid.

She went home and got a hoodie to put OVER the pondscum dress! Why didn't she change clothes?!? That's all I can think about! Edited March 29, 2016 by bilgistic

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

One Of The Girls Steps Out
Marnie figures out what we've known all along, in the most inadvisable way possible.

[Knuckles]

Salesclerk wins the episode. Exactly how a sane person would deal with Marnie.

 

The hooker grift was a rare moment for Marnie...she did read that one and play it well. On the other hand, skeevy ex-boyfriend hanging with street rats, and needing to use the bathroom every hour might have been a clue. Dump of an apartment with garbage bags to black out the windows another...with random girl in bathroom...so a drug squat perchance. And the street mugging...ex-boyfriend has knife at the ready. Yeah, a pleasant evening.

 

None of this makes Desi look any better. Good on her for cutting her losses.

[himela]

Such an articulate and good episode. Marnie needed all this episode for us to see what she is feeling and thinking. I'm happy I saw a woman realize her weaknesses and being ready to face them. I was happy that Hannah aknowledged her presence in the bed and got back to sleep. I'm happy that, as much as those women fight and stay away from each other, they still love each other so very much, no questions asked. It gives me hope regarding the female friendship that I believe so little in in my real life.

 

Good job Lena.

[qtpye]

..

....damn you Charlie and your beard! Why did I find you weirdly attractive, other than the whole drugs thing!

Minus the drugs, he was totally fuckable.

 

 

When he took his shirt off, I realized that he did not gain fat, but muscle mass.  I have never seen heroin addiction look so good on a person.

 

Charlie was the male equivalent of the manic pixie dream girl showing an uptight person how the world can be magical.  Of course the females are fun and only lead to good things, where he ends up being a dangerous drug addict.

 

I am watching the People vs. O.J. Simpson; American Crime Story, so Desi's murder comment alarmed me.  I hope he was talking in metaphors, because even though he is pathetic, he has never been shown to be violent.

 

Though, I could totally see him stalking Marnie...

[wendyg]

Honestly, the shot of Marnie underwater would have been worth sitting through the entire rest of the episode: it was a stunningly beautiful shot, but also the moment where Marnie starts to realize she has no clue what she's doing.

 

When she got into bed with Hannah, I thought, "One by one, they're all coming home". Shoshanna from her Japan fantasy, Marnie from her marriage fantasy. So next up: Jessa from her Adam fantasy?

[Eucrid]

Marnie is a such a well written character. Its a pity Williams is such a poor actress because no matter how good an episode like this should be she still drags it down.

[Hecate7]

The part is written for Williams. I think she does a great job with it.

[Eucrid]

Of course its written for her but that doesn't make her a good actress. If she was better I think I would feel more sympathy through her surface terribleness like I do with most of the rest of the characters, especially Hannah and its not like Lena is Cate Blanchett but she still manages to provide some pathos.

[Febgirl]

I didn't like this episode at all.     I think the best of the "bottle" episodes have been those with Shoshanna in Japan.

 

Allison Williams isn't a great actor.  I always feel that when she reads lines it's like watching  a badly acted high school play.  There's no nuance to her work.  

The brief scene she shared in the bathroom with Julia Garner ( See her and Lily Tomlin in Grandma, if you haven't already, its's wonderful) made me wonder how different the show would be if they cast the show with more people who could actually act.

[beeblebrox]

I liked this episode for the ending the best where Desi and Marnie broke up. The other awesome part was the sales clerk exchange totally over Marnie's b.s. This episode reminded me so much of some people I see on Facebook who are closer in age to the characters. One of them just turned 30 and is incredibly smug about her life. Both her and her husband are completely tone deaf on Facebook so much like the Girls characters. The girl on Facebook did an abs selfie and said it was all DNA as it why she's toned. She talks all about having the best husband and his money making job. She's a stay at home mom whose barely worked since getting married around 25 years old if at all. Her husband says equally tone deaf things about his money making job and their new house. From what they show on Facebook, she's as insipid as Marnie and the rest of the Girls. They literally have no self awareness or hardship. I resist the Internet smack down so hard reading her posts.

 

Marnie's adventure with Chris and then breakup with Desi was fascinating. Was Chris meant to be eye opening to avoiding huge red flags in her life? Marnie avoided/denied huge red flags with Desi. There were so many red flags with Chris. I get that she wasn't going to change him, but seeing the grit of life, is that what opened up her up to the crap marriage she's in? I mentioned my best friend before (who got remarried recently). Her ex-husband was a huge red flag. I saw that months before the wedding. She was so much in denial and trudged through a painful few years after he imploded their marriage. Talking to her later, she knew she was marrying the wrong person but having it planned and ready, she felt that she couldn't back out. Why didn't they show Marnie having those huge doubts? They showed Desi having issues on the wedding day, but not her. I want Marnie to hook up and marry Ray. They're perfect in a messed up way together. 

 

I was thinking about this too: Why doesn't Girls show any functional marriages? Both Jessa and Marnie have been married and divorced quickly. It's all starter marriages. Can one of these girls have a working, healthy relationship/marriage lasting longer than a few months? 

 

ETA: I could totally see Charlie's fall from grace in the tech world. I've seen a lot of hard drinking at software companies. His introduction to drugs there isn't too much of a stretch. His becoming a drug addict as a result is possible, an extreme, but entirely possible from what I've seen. I think that the cocaine and other hard drug use in the tech industry is no different from the 1980's stockbrokers boozing and drugging hard in the professional world.

Edited March 29, 2016 by beeblebrox

[jeansheridan]

I really liked this episode. I thought it was quite compelling actually. Guess I'm one of the few. It was good to see Marnie have an epiphany of sorts. Hopefully it sticks and she doesn't just go running to the next d-bag.

I loved it. I liked the Shoshana centered episode too. I think I deeply dislike seeing Lena Denham. Her entire Hannah persona bugs. But Marnie! Seeing Marnie and her protective wall of pretensions delights me. Her chiliness and impatience with both guys is great. She is never vulnerable. Even the mugging barely dents her worldview that she is above such concerns as gunshots or hepatitis or VD. It is all material for her WORK.

This is one of the best written shows from Lena. I may hate Hannah, but Lena is a writer.

[jeansheridan]

Of course its written for her but that doesn't make her a good actress. If she was better I think I would feel more sympathy through her surface terribleness like I do with most of the rest of the characters, especially Hannah and its not like Lena is Cate Blanchett but she still manages to provide some pathos.

The only time I liked Hannah or felt for her was Season 1. The final shot of her eating wedding cake by herself on the city beach was awesome. And she acted like a human during Adam's sister's home birth. Otherwise fingernails on chalkboard. I don't care about her. I care about Ray. And maybe Hannah's mother.

[Lone Wolf]

 

I agree about the skinniness, and I think that dress was specially chosen to play it up. 

 

 

 

Her nail polish just happened to match it perfectly as well (I have a mild manicure fetish).

 

Desi's line, "You will get murdered one day," made me laugh until I was sick. 

 

 

Anyway, Desi does get some great lines. He's right, Marnie may end up getting murdered. She does do some really stupid things.

I think he totally may be right.  Her having little sense of the world may be the truest thing ever said on this show.  As someone noted above, she could have been killed during the mugging, and the pretending-to-be-a-hooker-and-running-up-the-cost bit (even though it showed that she was quick on her feet) was impulsive and reckless at best and dangerous at worst.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Lone Wolf

[TheNewJanBrady]

Ugggggggh I found Christopher Abbott shamefully hot in this episode. That's all I really came here to say.

[peeayebee]

Her nail polish just happened to match it perfectly as well (I have a mild manicure fetish).

I don't have a manicure fetish, but I noticed that too! I almost wanted to go back to see if she was wearing that polish before she got the dress. (I hate when I get distracted by unimportant stuff.)

[27bored]

I liked this episode. It reminded of that episode of Dawson's Creek that was just about Joey and she got mugged and then the dude got hit by a car and then he died. "Boys names for girls. That's cute."

 

Lena Dunham turned Chris Abbott into Drake. Heh. Charlie did look better with twenty pounds, full beard, and tattoos. And there was always something dark and somber about Charlie, even when he was with Marnie. It's kinda interesting since I went through a similar change in my mid-20s, though it wasn't predicated by the death of a parent. But I "changed" according to an ex-girlfriend of mine, including my voice a little (not that I really noticed). It's a very strange thing when you stop actively being nice to people.

 

My issue with this episode, and with Girls and Sex and the City and many other shows like it, is this: they don't know how to write men. I don't want to write a whole gender thesis, but it's like, I know men put women through a bunch of shit sometimes, and I know we can be annoying, aggravating, confusing, frustrating, and whatnot, but most guys aren't that complicated. Even the capital-C complicated ones generally aren't that complicated. Why did Desi go from being a cool, mature, kinda crunchy (in a granola sense) working actor who played a little folk on the side to falling apart every time Marnie copped an attitude? Charlie was a nice guy, a bit of a doormat, but seemed sweet and mild-mannered, but he blew up his relationship with Marnie because his dad killed himself. Of course he didn't say anything to her, of course he broke her heart, of course he wound up kinda dicey in a flophouse. Adam, Elijah, Ray, Fran -- they just seem like caricatures of a type of guy. And while that's not a terribly bad thing -- it sometimes makes the show more interesting -- I don't like when it's used to Say Something about a female character. I've never had a huge problem with Marnie, but her bullshit seems less like bullshit every time Desi starts crying and calling her Bella.

Edited March 29, 2016 by 27bored

[Hecate7]

I liked this episode. It reminded of that episode of Dawson's Creek that was just about Joey and she got mugged and then the dude got hit by a car and then he died. "Boys names for girls. That's cute."

 

Lena Dunham turned Chris Abbott into Drake. Heh. Charlie did look better with twenty pounds, full beard, and tattoos. And there was always something dark and somber about Charlie, even when he was with Marnie. It's kinda interesting since I went through a similar change in my mid-20s, though it wasn't predicated by the death of a parent. But I "changed" according to an ex-girlfriend of mine, including my voice a little (not that I really noticed). It's a very strange thing when you stop actively being nice to people.

 

My issue with this episode, and with Girls and Sex and the City and many other shows like it, is this: they don't know how to write men. I don't want to write a whole gender thesis, but it's like, I know men put women through a bunch of shit sometimes, and I know we can be annoying, aggravating, confusing, frustrating, and whatnot, but most guys aren't that complicated. Even the capital-C complicated ones generally aren't that complicated. Why did Desi go from being a cool, mature, kinda crunchy (in a granola sense) working actor who played a little folk on the side to falling apart every time Marnie copped an attitude? Charlie was a nice guy, a bit of a doormat, but seemed sweet and mild-mannered, but he blew up his relationship with Marnie because his dad killed himself. Of course he didn't say anything to her, of course he broke her heart, of course he wound up kinda dicey in a flophouse. Adam, Elijah, Ray, Fran -- they just seem like caricatures of a type of guy. And while that's not a terribly bad thing -- it sometimes makes the show more interesting -- I don't like when it's used to Say Something about a female character. I've never had a huge problem with Marnie, but her bullshit seems less like bullshit every time Desi starts crying and calling her Bella.

 

1) Desi went from cool to insane because he went from far away, to close up. He wasn't in a relationship with Marnie, and then he was. We, like Marnie, just didn't know him that well! That's all. From a distance he still is a crunchy working actor who sings. It's only when he's remodeling your bedroom or having weird, weird sex with you that you realize he's got problems. We know the Girls and they are all selfish jerks hoping to become better people but sort of not willing to. From a female perspective, this is really realistic, because guys turn into a completely other guy once you get them home. You think you're with a sweet guy, kind of a doormat, and then you find out he's a coke addict. You marry a guy with a humanitarian award and end up in nightly screaming matches. That "nice guy" just isn't all that nice. Sweet Fran is a control freak.The nice buttoned-down married Dad is actually gay. Down-to-earth Ray seems to suffer from clinical depression. Guys become VERY different people once you sleep with them, and they are even MORE different after you marry them. A seemingly stable, vegan, nonsmoking, very pleasant and funny guy turns out, once you're married to him, to punch holes in walls and hit you daily until you finally take the hint and leave. This is probably true about women, too, but I never hear guys talking about it.  But girls are always talking about the bizarre Jekyll and Hyde behavior of that lovely guy who suddenly turned nuts once they got exclusive/moved in/got married.  Of course they were always that other person, you just didn't know it until you got that close, and he somehow decided he had permission to "let it all hang out."

 

2) Adam & Ray don't seem like caricatures to me at all, but maybe this show is trying to do for men what TV has always done for women?

 

3) How can they be too complex and also caricatures?

 

4) These guys are much more convincing and better drawn than any female character on any show from a male POV, such as How I Met Your Mother, or Dexter, or Seinfeld...seriously. At least these guys do have their own thoughts and feelings, even if they're not always likable.

 

P.S. Although it's possible Charlie did break up with Marnie rather than cry on her shoulder about his father's suicide and have her come with him to the funeral, it seems unlikely somehow. I think it's a lot more likely that he said that to make Marnie feel bad about being angry with him over the breakup, so she'd go with him and he could set her up.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Hecate7

[chocolatine]

I don't have a manicure fetish, but I noticed that too! I almost wanted to go back to see if she was wearing that polish before she got the dress. (I hate when I get distracted by unimportant stuff.)

 

 

I pay attention to manicures because I always get them myself, and Marnie definitely had red nail polish on from the beginning of the episode.

[DianeDobbler]

I care about Ray too, which is why I hate Lena Dunham for the Ray/Marnie thing. I saw a Lena commentary on this episode; she says Allison Williams is a kick-ass actress and deserved a capsule episode. I just see it as hierarchy. Allison is Lena's idea of the serious central character, Ray is the best actor (forgot the actor's actual name), so the hierarchy mandates they hook up. They have anti-chemistry. Not that chemistry is so important, but when it exists elsewhere for a character and they go against it because of what I consider a hierarchal vision by the writer, I get irritated.

 

Anyway, probably some of that rant is misplaced because I'd never have expected Adam/Jessa to be put together as earnestly as Lena Dunham has been doing it, and they have much better chemistry than Hannah/Adam.

 

For a long time Soshanna/Ray were the only "couple" with chemistry, but at least now there's Adam/Jessa. And, as bad as Allison Williams is as an actress, she and the actor playing Charlie do have chemistry. She walks, moves and breathes differently with him; she's very unselfconcious with that actor. Ray and Marnie though - I do not buy it for a single second. I saw an interview where the actor playing Ray said he bought Soshanna/Ray when it happened but Ray/Marnie he didn't. The other showrunner said "You didn't buy it." and he said he found a place where he finally could. I still don't think he does. It's a "rationalize it on paper" but it doesn't play.

 

Something that seems a little forced to me as well is both Jessa and Marnie have had short-lived, ill-advised marriages to guys who, although on opposite sides of the cultural divide, were ridiculous in very similar ways. Used in similar ways in the story. Not even that dissimilar as physical types.

 

Hecate, I must say my experience with men couldn't be more different than yours. MMV but I don't think that's how it usually plays. It may play like that sometimes. It happens. The standard playbook? No.

Edited March 30, 2016 by DianeDobbler

[27bored]

1) Desi went from cool to insane because he went from far away, to close up. He wasn't in a relationship with Marnie, and then he was. We, like Marnie, just didn't know him that well! That's all.

 

I...don't buy that. I mean, I understand what you're saying and I'm not trying to be contrary, but Desi went from mostly likable to mostly unlikable, and I'm separating him from his relationship with Marnie. I think they dialed up his crunchiness to 11 to make him into the kind of man Marnie could not be happy with. I could tell when he solicited Ray's opinion of him in the S4 finale. Desi seemed like a sensitive soul, but not some neurotic guy who has a need for validation.

 

From a distance he still is a crunchy working actor who sings. It's only when he's remodeling your bedroom or having weird, weird sex with you that you realize he's got problems. We know the Girls and they are all selfish jerks hoping to become better people but sort of not willing to. From a female perspective, this is really realistic, because guys turn into a completely other guy once you get them home. You think you're with a sweet guy, kind of a doormat, and then you find out he's a coke addict. You marry a guy with a humanitarian award and end up in nightly screaming matches. That "nice guy" just isn't all that nice. Sweet Fran is a control freak.The nice buttoned-down married Dad is actually gay. Down-to-earth Ray seems to suffer from clinical depression. Guys become VERY different people once you sleep with them, and they are even MORE different after you marry them. A seemingly stable, vegan, nonsmoking, very pleasant and funny guy turns out, once you're married to him, to punch holes in walls and hit you daily until you finally take the hint and leave. This is probably true about women, too, but I never hear guys talking about it.  But girls are always talking about the bizarre Jekyll and Hyde behavior of that lovely guy who suddenly turned nuts once they got exclusive/moved in/got married.  Of course they were always that other person, you just didn't know it until you got that close, and he somehow decided he had permission to "let it all hang out."

 

Yeah, and see I think the whole Jekyll and Hyde thing is usually bullshit. Desi was full of shit when he was sleeping with Marnie while still with Clementine; Marnie didn't care because he chose her. Turning Desi into this fragile flower who bawls at the drop of a hat is funny, but it seems like they're doing it to make Marnie seem more like a victim than she is. And I say victim because I think who Desi was when she met him was bad enough. Making him seem almost entirely unlikable so that Marnie looks more vindicated for leaving him seems like bad writing.

2) Adam & Ray don't seem like caricatures to me at all, but maybe this show is trying to do for men what TV has always done for women?

 

 

 

3) How can they be too complex and also caricatures?

 

I said "complicated", which meant that most guys don't become someone totally different the second you sleep with them, date them, etc. Who that guy is, is who that guy is. I'm not necessarily talking about someone who courts a girl just to get sex and then when he does he no longer wants to see her. That's "game" (notice the quotes; not a compliment). They're caricatures of a certain type of guy, or caricatures of who they were when we were introduced to them. Again, using Desi as an example, they could've wrote Desi as being more or less the same guy he was when we met him, and had Marnie realize she wasn't happy with him and didn't want to be married, without turning him into a crybaby who wants a scone. Maybe Marnie would've looked a little bit worse than Desi if he had retained some of his initial charm, but it would've been more believable than this. Marnie leaving Desi while he's sitting on a step crying into a pillow made her decision look more sane than he is.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

Charlie used to annoy the crap out of me and seemed so blah when he was on the show before. But in this episode....damn....I bought the aging, found his character intriguing, and even thought he was really attractive.

And, for future reference, Marnie is cool with her man having a cocaine habit where he has to do a bump every hour or so, but she draws a line at heroin. Okay then. I get that IV drugs are much more dangerous given the diseases you can get from sharing needles, etc. but the kind of coke habit Charlie appeared to have is pretty darn expensive and of course, disruptive to a "normal"/productive life.

Can we get a capsule episode that's just Jessa and Adam? I mean, if Sosh and Marnie are getting their own episodes, it only seems fair.

I will not miss Desi. Bye, douche!

Edited March 30, 2016 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[Hecate7]

I think anybody getting dumped weeks after the honeymoon is gonna cry into their pillow. It's not as if he was sobbing into his pillow because their pizza was late. Desi seemed much more confident before, but he was always doing things like flaking out and missing performances, or leaving Marnie holding the bag while he spent all their money on something random, or probably got high. It was inevitable that Marnie would stress out and become brittle and bitchy, and that Desi would get more and more neurotic.

 

In my (admittedly not universal but still not that unusual I don't think) experience, men often cry when women threaten to leave. It's a kind of a manipulative thing--guilt them into staying. That, I think, is why it left Marnie completely cold. That and the fact that Marnie is kinda cold anyway.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Hecate7

[Hecate7]

I...don't buy that. I mean, I understand what you're saying and I'm not trying to be contrary, but Desi went from mostly likable to mostly unlikable, and I'm separating him from his relationship with Marnie. I think they dialed up his crunchiness to 11 to make him into the kind of man Marnie could not be happy with. I could tell when he solicited Ray's opinion of him in the S4 finale. Desi seemed like a sensitive soul, but not some neurotic guy who has a need for validation.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, and see I think the whole Jekyll and Hyde thing is usually bullshit. Desi was full of shit when he was sleeping with Marnie while still with Clementine; Marnie didn't care because he chose her. Turning Desi into this fragile flower who bawls at the drop of a hat is funny, but it seems like they're doing it to make Marnie seem more like a victim than she is. And I say victim because I think who Desi was when she met him was bad enough. Making him seem almost entirely unlikable so that Marnie looks more vindicated for leaving him seems like bad writing.

 

 

I said "complicated", which meant that most guys don't become someone totally different the second you sleep with them, date them, etc. Who that guy is, is who that guy is. I'm not necessarily talking about someone who courts a girl just to get sex and then when he does he no longer wants to see her. That's "game" (notice the quotes; not a compliment). They're caricatures of a certain type of guy, or caricatures of who they were when we were introduced to them. Again, using Desi as an example, they could've wrote Desi as being more or less the same guy he was when we met him, and had Marnie realize she wasn't happy with him and didn't want to be married, without turning him into a crybaby who wants a scone. Maybe Marnie would've looked a little bit worse than Desi if he had retained some of his initial charm, but it would've been more believable than this. Marnie leaving Desi while he's sitting on a step crying into a pillow made her decision look more sane than he is.

 

Marriage does change people, though.

[represent]

Didn't Marnie say that in the beginning he had to cover her face when they had sex because he felt guilty about cheating on his girlfriend?

Did we viewers ever see this on screen?

Or, was it something just mentioned in this episode?

At any rate, it makes perfect sense to me that the face covering guy would end up crying into his pillow, if not worse. He's been coming undone for quite some time apparently.

[absnow54]

For a long time Soshanna/Ray were the only "couple" with chemistry, but at least now there's Adam/Jessa. And, as bad as Allison Williams is as an actress, she and the actor playing Charlie do have chemistry. She walks, moves and breathes differently with him; she's very unselfconcious with that actor. Ray and Marnie though - I do not buy it for a single second. I saw an interview where the actor playing Ray said he bought Soshanna/Ray when it happened but Ray/Marnie he didn't. The other showrunner said "You didn't buy it." and he said he found a place where he finally could. I still don't think he does. It's a "rationalize it on paper" but it doesn't play.

I agree. I really like the idea of Marnie/Ray because I'm a sucker for "we hate each other, but we have this mutual friend, and even though our mutual friend has dumped us, we're both still here" but I don't think the actors work together nearly as well as Soshanna and Ray do. When Christopher Abbott left, Ray had to become an amalgam of Ray and Charlie, and while I think the actor's done a great job with it, he's never clicked with Allison Williams. I think Marnie/Williams works best across Lena Dunham, and as this episode showed, Christopher Abbott, who can get nuance out of her character beyond oblivious narcissist (although I love when Marnie is completely tone deaf to a situation and makes an ass out of herself.)

Edited March 30, 2016 by absnow54

[DianeDobbler]

absnow, exactly, if you're looking at Marnie/Ray conceptually, sure. If you watch them on screen, there is beyond a disconnect. They do not click even as actors; their scenes do NOT work at all. In the interview I saw where Alex Karpovsky (looked it up) briefly brought up Marnie/Ray and Shoshanna/Ray, Jenni Konner (the other showrunner) was there with Allison Williams. After Jenni Konner was like "You didn't buy it?" to Karpovsky, Allison Williams said, well, it's because we were betraying Shosh. There was zero even lip service connection between Williams and Karpovsky even on that, even in an "inside the show" video clip. Now, whenever I see Karpovsky and Zosia Mamet in a group interview I don't see things particularly clicking either, but it's not as bad as what I saw with Karpovsky/Williams, and Karpovsky/Mamet effortlessly click as their characters.

 

I could see Ray/Marnie played for comedy, that somehow she represented the girl he couldn't get in high school, and he had to figure that out and get past it, because there's no there, there with her. However, instead, they moved onto from there to him seeing all kinds of depth, complexity, nuance in her, but IT AINT ON SCREEN. It's painful. I think Dunham has been more astute, generally, than I've anticipated, but here I think she is way too predetermined.

Edited March 30, 2016 by DianeDobbler

[BaseOps]

Not sure what the point of the mugging was. An omen to Marnie that things are not that great?

 

I think, too, to point out her naivety. She said something to the effect of "I didn't know people still got robbed!"

[racked]

As a guy, I also reject the notion that most men "aren't that complicated". Maybe men don't appear complicated on the surface, but I think deep down men are just as complicated as women can be.

 

As for drastic shifts in character, I don't think Desi has changed over night, but more gradually. He may not have appeared to be as whiny, when he was first introduced, I just think he gradually let his guard down. How we act when we are first introduced/or in public is not who we might actually be, so I bought his transition.

 

Another guy here who agrees with you. And I think Desi has always had little flashes of being exactly like this - we are just seeing more of it now. 

[scrb]

The mugging was probably a contrivance so Marnie would have to walk back, in that red dress, barefoot.

 

Or maybe it was to hint at the shady world that she'd be living in if she ran away with Charlie.

 

Andy Greenwald said NY is one of the few places in the world where a person can move across classes so he pointed to the crashing the party at the Plaza Hotel.

 

But by the end of the episode, she's crossed into the underworld before returning to her relatively comfortable life in Manhattan.

[Francie]

Honestly, the shot of Marnie underwater would have been worth sitting through the entire rest of the episode: it was a stunningly beautiful shot, but also the moment where Marnie starts to realize she has no clue what she's doing.

 

When she got into bed with Hannah, I thought, "One by one, they're all coming home". Shoshanna from her Japan fantasy, Marnie from her marriage fantasy. So next up: Jessa from her Adam fantasy?

I don't know that it is an Adam fantasy for Jessa, though. They seem well suited for each other, to the extent that either of them could be well suited for anyone else. Jessa seems to have her eyes open to who Adam is, too.

But I do agree that they are all coming home. For Jessa it's about being able to come home with Adam, and being accepted.

[Hecate7]

I think, too, to point out her naivety. She said something to the effect of "I didn't know people still got robbed!"

I got more than that from it.

 

The robbery itself looked staged. Charlie seemed to know the guy. He was way too nonchalant ordering the robber around. It was as if there were a script and Charlie went off-script, and then the robber did, too. It looked pretty clear to me that the robber and Charlie were in cahoots.

[27bored]

As a guy, I also reject the notion that most men "aren't that complicated". Maybe men don't appear complicated on the surface, but I think deep down men are just as complicated as women can be.

 

As for drastic shifts in character, I don't think Desi has changed over night, but more gradually. He may not have appeared to be as whiny, when he was first introduced, I just think he gradually let his guard down. How we act when we are first introduced/or in public is not who we might actually be, so I bought his transition.

 

I don't think men or women are all that complicated. I think relationships can be complicated, because you're merging two different people together. But a lot of people don't just turn into someone different when they're in a relationship or even just sleep with someone. I would say most people don't. And relationships don't necessarily end because one person wound up being an asshole. Many break-ups are just two decent people saying goodbye. It sometimes seems to be more than that because of emotions and whatnot, but in the end that's often times all it is. That may not be something that's entirely apparent, especially in your 20s, but it's the truth.

 

Turning Desi into an obnoxious, clingy, co-dependent crybaby just so it made more sense for Marnie to step out with Charlie and then leave him by frankly saying "I don't want to be married to you" seems pat. Even Marnie's S1 break-up with Charlie -- Charlie found Hannah's diary, got upset, broke up with Marnie (which was bullshit on his part), Marnie begged him to take her back, and after listing everything he wanted her to do while having sex, Marnie hit her head and realized she really didn't want to be with Charlie. Even though Marnie was routinely obnoxious to him, in the end she looked levelheaded for breaking up while he looked whiny.

 

Compare that to Marnie and Hannah's fight when they decided not to room together. I didn't feel like the writers immolated either character for the sake of splitting them apart. Hannah's...Hannah and Marnie's...Marnie. Both of them were right and full of shit in different parts, but together they just didn't click anymore.

Edited March 30, 2016 by 27bored

[DianeDobbler]

I agree that Lena Dunham often begs the question when it's time to break people up, instead of just letting them break up. Desi didn't have to become a complete joke.

 

I agree Jessa and Adam aren't a fantasy. I've always enjoyed Jessa, although I completely get Jemima Kirk's critique of her - but for me she's SUCH a recognizable type, down to the looks that help her get away with it. I just feel she has completely humanized Adam, made him much more accessible, gotten him to crawl out from up his own butt. They fight, etc., but they also crack each other up. They can't really maintain their individual "mystique" around each other, and I think that's a good thing. I also thought it was well played that their first time having sex was bad, but as it turned out, their connection goes further than that.

[Neko]

Marnie's line about being 25 1/2 confused me.  In the first season, Hannah was 24 and I assumed Marnie and Hannah were the same age, since they were in the same class at college together.  Shouldn't Marnie be older than that by now?  More than a year has passed since the start of the series, she should be closer to 30.

[Clanstarling]

I don't think men or women are all that complicated. I think relationships can be complicated, because you're merging two different people together. But a lot of people don't just turn into someone different when they're in a relationship or even just sleep with someone. I would say most people don't.

I don't think people change that much either. I think what does change, are perceptions. In the early phases of a relationship, when attraction is at its strongest, some people tend to handwave issues, just don't notice, or think a behavior means one thing, when it's actually and indicator of something else. Once they are together 24/7, those things start becoming more obvious and less appealing. Some couples can deal with the differences and overcome them. Others not so much.

[absnow54]

The robbery itself looked staged. Charlie seemed to know the guy. He was way too nonchalant ordering the robber around. It was as if there were a script and Charlie went off-script, and then the robber did, too. It looked pretty clear to me that the robber and Charlie were in cahoots.

That didn't even occur to me. I think it's just a scene that Charlie is used to because he's a junkie surrounded by a bunch of junkies who are desperate for their next fix. He was just calling the guy's bluff, not expecting him to have a gun.

 

I think the point of the mugging was to separate Marnie from her wedding ring, the symbol of her marriage, and for her to realize she doesn't care that it's gone.

[boes]

I haven't commented in this forum before but the disconnect between what I saw on screen in this episode and what I think Lena Dunham wanted us to see was, for me, astonishing.  

Marnie was awful.  Selfish and self-centered, even moreso than usual, and then with a smile on her face and a knife in her heart, proceeded to cut Desi to shreds.  I'm no Desi fan - the guy is full of shit.  But Marnie is full of shit and overflowing with it, topped off with an odious sense of self-regard that is completely undeserved.

She JUST married the guy and because she gets a glimpse of an old lover, spends the night with him, she dumps her husband?

 

Worthless.  And for the first time, really, I think Dunham wrote an episode devoid of any truth, emotional or otherwise.