S06.E09: No Way Out

[diebartdie]

I LOVED this episode! For me, this is the very best episode of TWD ever, it has actually bumped my previously number #1 episode (by the dying fire) down to number 2!! So Ive read most of the comments here and read Rob Bricken's recap/deconstruction of the episode and Im really amazed at how many people are screaming bloody murder at how "stupid" so many of the characters were, how "unrealistic" they acted and I just have to laugh! SERIOUSLY?!?!? Dear lord yall, WE call Rick's gang "Camp Dinner Bell" or have you forgotten that? OF COURSE they do stupid, stupid shit! Thats why we love them! Oh man yes OF COURSE it was jarring how it went from mid-day to midnight so quickly but for heaven's sake I just very easily fan wanked it that the conga line was moving really, really slowly. My gripe with the conga line? That was the first time Jessie, Ron, Sam, FPP and CARL were in such an amazing huge herd (hell that was a first for Rick too but not Michonne) and yet not ONE of those people were weeping. I mean if I was in the conga line surrounded by walking corpses I would have been overcome not just with fear but also intense sadness! Yes the zombies are incredibly horrific and terrifying to look at but also, they are dead human beings, trapped to just shamble and attack. That is sad, I would have expected at least ONE person to be crying. Small gripe at a missed opportunity for an actor.

 

When the shrink surgeon and wolf boy were down in that sunken courtyard and she was basically shivering and keeping her eyes closed I did not read that as any sort of love connection between the two, I saw a woman nearly out of her mind with panic trying her hardest to just get it together enough to breathe. I did NOT see the wolf boy changing his mind about how the world works, I saw him as deciding he was not going to kill Denise or even use her as a rape prize for him and his buddies, I think he was scheming to turn her into a wolf too.

 

Carol has a lot on her mind and her heart wont let her keep it all inside. She's got a reckoning coming between her heart of love and her mind of death. Even she sees the bind she has put herself in, she can't just immediately go for the gun/knife every single time. Somehow she has to either find a middle way or she will be the one to die (live by the sword, die by the sword you know).

 

Seems like the gut ponchos would have dried out and not been smelly enough after a 12 hour stroll outside, in the summer.

 

I freekin LOVED The Battle for Alexandria, it was awesome and slightly cheesy and thrilling and stupid and FUCKING AWESOME. They killed the shit out of that herd. Haha zombies! In your FACE!

 

Last thing, when Carl was laying in that bed with that giant bandage on his head he looked so young, so innocent, so very very young it was heart breaking. I love this show.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

The Fall And Rise Of Alexandria
The tide turns, but not without some significant losses for Rick and his survivors.

[Bad Example]

 

When the shrink surgeon and wolf boy were down in that sunken courtyard and she was basically shivering and keeping her eyes closed I did not read that as any sort of love connection between the two, I saw a woman nearly out of her mind with panic trying her hardest to just get it together enough to breathe. I did NOT see the wolf boy changing his mind about how the world works, I saw him as deciding he was not going to kill Denise or even use her as a rape prize for him and his buddies, I think he was scheming to turn her into a wolf too.

 

I agree for the most part.  I don't think he ever changed his mind,  I think he agreed to the infirmary because he had hope that Denise could help him.  Maybe he thought she would amputate his arm or something, or that just wanting to live made him believe anything.  I don't think there was any altruism involved.

As for Denise, I don't know what her play was.  She wanted to live, and not going outside the wall was her best best.  So did she mean any of what she said about helping him, or was it just saying whatever she could to save herself?  Also, what would she think she was going to do for a guy with a bite after more than a few seconds had passed?  In my dream world it went something like, "I'm going to give you this for the pain" = "DIE WOLF DIE", but I'm not sure she had that in her.  

[Nashville]

Does anyone know why Daryl cut a look at Glenn when he said that he had just gotten back to Alexandria?

 

Probably because the last Daryl heard, Glenn and company were headed back to Alexandria to warn of the approaching walker horde - a day and a half ago.

Daryl has no notion of Glenn's dumpster-diving episode, or its duration.

  

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

The Fall And Rise Of Alexandria

The tide turns, but not without some significant losses for Rick and his survivors.

LOVED the hack montage GIFs.

"...and many balls were found on that day."

[Eyes High]

When the shrink surgeon and wolf boy were down in that sunken courtyard and she was basically shivering and keeping her eyes closed I did not read that as any sort of love connection between the two, I saw a woman nearly out of her mind with panic trying her hardest to just get it together enough to breathe. I did NOT see the wolf boy changing his mind about how the world works, I saw him as deciding he was not going to kill Denise or even use her as a rape prize for him and his buddies, I think he was scheming to turn her into a wolf too.

 

I have no doubt that Denise's actress was trying to convey panic and fear, and that the Wolf's actor was trying to convey malevolent menace, but that's not how it played. Inappropriate chemistry is a bitch.

 

I agree that the Wolf did seem to have designs on Denise, although I don't know if that was the writing or the inappropriate chemistry. "We'll get through the herd...get to the fence...clear the fence...get to the Wolves...make you a Wolf...get married in a quiet, intimate ceremony...move to Vermont...open up a nice B&B with a nature theme...have twins named Wolfgang and Lupe..."

[Nutjob]

I agree for the most part.  I don't think he ever changed his mind,  I think he agreed to the infirmary because he had hope that Denise could help him.  Maybe he thought she would amputate his arm or something, or that just wanting to live made him believe anything.  I don't think there was any altruism involved.

As for Denise, I don't know what her play was.  She wanted to live, and not going outside the wall was her best best.  So did she mean any of what she said about helping him, or was it just saying whatever she could to save herself?  Also, what would she think she was going to do for a guy with a bite after more than a few seconds had passed?  In my dream world it went something like, "I'm going to give you this for the pain" = "DIE WOLF DIE", but I'm not sure she had that in her.  

I think she was going to try to help him if she could, but knew that it probably would work, and had the awesome bonus of keeping her inside the walls and getting her back to her home turf in the infirmary. I wasn't convinced at all that Alpha Wolf was changing, but I do agree that he wanted to make her into a Wolf and thought there was hope.

 

I read Bricken's article, and it just spoke to me as someone who forgot this is a series based on a comic set in the zombie apocalypse. This was the first episode in a while that I felt captured the tone of the comics without being too soap opera-y or talky. I attribute that to Greg Nicotero directing, because he clearly likes to go gonzo... and I loved every second of it.

[Nashville]

I LOVED this episode!

I hadn't really said before, but - right up there with ya.

I did NOT see the wolf boy changing his mind about how the world works, I saw him as deciding he was not going to kill Denise or even use her as a rape prize for him and his buddies, I think he was scheming to turn her into a wolf too.

Absolutely! It seemed glaringly obvious to me that G'Day Wolf found Denise engaging intellectually (and perhaps emotionally), and had already decided Denise was worthy of Wolfdom - on a provisional basis, at least.

I freekin LOVED The Battle for Alexandria, it was awesome and slightly cheesy and thrilling and stupid and FUCKING AWESOME. They killed the shit out of that herd. Haha zombies! In your FACE!

Slightly cheesy??? It was TOTAL Velveeta, and it was great! Only issue I had with it was the complete and total contradiction in Rick's actions:

• Rick, Take One: "There are too many walkers to be handled with the armory's current supply of firearms and ammo. Let's go for the cars at the quarry instead and try to lead them away."
• Rick, Take Two: "I'm taking on the entire horde with a hand axe. Who's with me?"

On the plus side, they saved a shit-ton of ammo for later.

ETA: Formatting

Edited February 16, 2016 by Nashville

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

The Fall And Rise Of Alexandria

The tide turns, but not without some significant losses for Rick and his survivors.

 

This is great, covering so many of the complaints about this episode in a delightful way!

Quote

Yay, A Boring Pep-Talk From Holy Glenn!

If you thought the trying-so-hard relationship between Glenn and Enid couldn't get any more boring or lame, you were wrong, my friend!

 

Glad I'm not the only one who thought so.

 

One really scary thing about this show is that someone is getting paid mucho dineros to pipe up with, "Wouldn't it be a great idea, if, right in the middle of the desperate struggle in Alexandria, we stop and spend ten minutes in inspirational chitchat between Glenn and Enid?"

 

What's even scarier is that other people said, "Awesome idea!"

 

ETA:

One of the only times in this series we've ever seen outright panic on Michonne's face.

 

Yeah - panic, horror, terror, desperation and grief over Cworl, all in that brief flash. Excellent.

Edited February 16, 2016 by AngelaHunter

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Due props to Bear MacCreary.

The musical score for the ASZ battle sequence was awesome.

He never disappoints.

[Eyes High]

Slightly cheesy??? It was TOTAL Velveeta, and it was great! Only issue I had with it was the complete and total contradiction in Rick's actions:

• Rick, Take One: "There are too many walkers to be handled with the armory's current supply of firearms and ammo. Let's go for the cars at the quarry instead and try to lead them away."
• Rick, Take Two: "I'm taking on the entire horde with a hand axe. Who's with me?"

 

 

I had to laugh at Rick turning his "FUCK YOUUUUU!" suicidal last stand against the walkers into "We can beat them! Let's show the walkers The Power Of Teamwork!!!" Nice save, asshole.

[Lexxy]

Due props to Bear MacCreary.

The musical score for the ASZ battle sequence was awesome.

He never disappoints.

 

I have yet to stop listening to his version of All Along the Watchtower.  

[Lady Iris]

I have no doubt that Denise's actress was trying to convey panic and fear, and that the Wolf's actor was trying to convey malevolent menace, but that's not how it played. Inappropriate chemistry is a bitch.

There was inappropriate chemistry wasn't there. I thought it was just in my head. I was almost a bit sad when Carol took him out given there may have been a teensy tiny glimmer of hope for him when he saved Denise.

 

Personally I was reminded of Ollie sending an arrow through Ygritte's back when Carol shot at the Wolf. Not as harrowing or sad mind you but reminded of it nonetheless.

 

And welcome back Daryl BAMF Dixon. Been missing you something fierce.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Lady Iris

[JackONeill]

A couple of things, some more random than others, and all subjective.

 

Whatever happened to the dog? Of course, do we really want to know? The last we saw him/her (I think), it was the episode where Rick (finally) killed Porchdick. Now, in the time of the show that was like 6 minutes ago. (Okay, I’m being slightly facetious . . . but not by much.) And if the dog is still alive, can we put him and Judith someplace really, really safe? (And please don’t let Daryl play with the dog. Remember the horse.)

 

Speaking of a safe place- Was that a new church they were in last night?  (Speaking of which, the Alamo, a former church, turned out NOT to be a safe place. Just a historical note.) I seem to remember somebody a few episodes back talking about building a church. Now, how come they can build a church, but everything else on the show seems to happen all at once, with no real passage of time?

 

Which leads to: Where on the earth does day end so fast and turn to night?????  This is now like the second time. Sure, at night, Walkers-flambe look much more . . . appealing. But come on, I can only put up with so many non-logical things.

 

And Glenn – again escaping death (for now).

 

And, now, I suppose we’re back to having only one to two leads per episode until something big at the end of the season, which will then cause us to wait for the next season’s premiere to get resolution of.

 

Ah, well.

[magemaud]

Could somebody refresh my memory about the timeline of events since CDB arrived in Alexandria? 

[lulee]

Could somebody refresh my memory about the timeline of events since CDB arrived in Alexandria?

Go to Day 536 here for the CDB-Alexandria timeline.

Edited February 16, 2016 by lulee

[ChipBach]

A couple of things, some more random than others, and all subjective.

 

Whatever happened to the dog? Of course, do we really want to know? The last we saw him/her (I think), it was the episode where Rick (finally) killed Porchdick. Now, in the time of the show that was like 6 minutes ago. (Okay, I’m being slightly facetious . . . but not by much.) And if the dog is still alive, can we put him and Judith someplace really, really safe? (And please don’t let Daryl play with the dog. Remember the horse.)

 

Speaking of a safe place- Was that a new church they were in last night?  (Speaking of which, the Alamo, a former church, turned out NOT to be a safe place. Just a historical note.) I seem to remember somebody a few episodes back talking about building a church. Now, how come they can build a church, but everything else on the show seems to happen all at once, with no real passage of time?

 

Which leads to: Where on the earth does day end so fast and turn to night?????  This is now like the second time. Sure, at night, Walkers-flambe look much more . . . appealing. But come on, I can only put up with so many non-logical things.

 

And Glenn – again escaping death (for now).

 

And, now, I suppose we’re back to having only one to two leads per episode until something big at the end of the season, which will then cause us to wait for the next season’s premiere to get resolution of.

 

Ah, well.

 

How many churches in that little sub-division anyway?  The one that was pushed over by the heard, the Fr. Poopy Pants church/garage, and the other one where Glen and Enid are hangin out.  Why wouldn't poops take one of the already crossyfied churches before he built St. Toyota's?

 

Anyway,

 

I am mixed on the episode.  Loved the action, I did have some issues with logic.

 

Rick....  Give your kid to THAT guy?  Oh well...  It's been said enough...

 

-  It seemed that Daryl, Abe, and Sasha took some serious extreme chances with the Neganites.  Why would they simply pull over and give up their guns?  Running them down with a tanker truck seemed to be a lost advantage.  What if lead dude decided to simply send two of his guys to the back of the truck to scavenge for stuff and shoot two of the three of them?  What luck they took D back with a single flunky.  Glad to see it end the way it did tho.  That was fun.

 

-  Speaking of Daryl, great idea with the gas.  However, why no shoot the gas OUTSIDE the compound and draw the walkers OUT instead of more IN.  And, if you are going to burn something, why not burn something flammable?  He decides to burn WATER.  I know, it seemed to work out, the pond (their only source of water BTW) stayed lit long enough for every walker to trudge all the way over from the far sides of town...  Again, drinking that water now seems a little sketchy...  

 

And Jessie, don't allow your son to argue with you during a Zombie emergency.  You're the mom, he is the son.  Throw a bloody tarp over his head and hand him over to Fr. Poops, - end of discussion.  Crappy parenting got her got.

 

Glen gets the "James Bond Award" for multiple, perfectly timed escapes from certain death.  You go Glenn!  If I was married to Mags, I think I would have advised her to get off the shaky gun tower and move to the solid as steel wall right behind her.

Edited February 16, 2016 by ChipBach

[Nashville]

Speaking of a safe place- Was that a new church they were in last night? (Speaking of which, the Alamo, a former church, turned out NOT to be a safe place. Just a historical note.) I seem to remember somebody a few episodes back talking about building a church. Now, how come they can build a church, but everything else on the show seems to happen all at once, with no real passage of time?

How many churches in that little sub-division anyway? The one that was pushed over by the heard, the Fr. Poopy Pants church/garage, and the other one where Glen and Enid are hangin out. Why wouldn't poops take one of the already crossyfied churches before he built St. Toyota's?

The Glenn/Enid church was nearby but outside the ASZ wall. Remember, they had caught a peek over the Wall and seen Maggie on the platform. They didn't re-enter the ASZ compound until they put their (extremely poorly thought-out) Maggie rescue plan into effect.

So far as "how many churches": Georgia OR Virginia, doesn't really matter - you're square in the buckle of the Bible Belt. If you can chuck a rock and NOT worry about hitting a church, then somebody's backsliding. ;>

the pond (their only source of water BTW) stayed lit long enough for every walker to trudge all the way over from the far sides of town... Again, drinking that water now seems a little sketchy...

I sincerely doubt a subdivision of houses starting in the $800Ks is depending upon an open crick for its primary water supply.

ETA: fixed typos

Edited February 16, 2016 by Nashville

[JackONeill]

(My quote thingy isn't working. Or, I'm not working. Either way . . .)

Nashville, so the church was outside ASZ? Then, how/why did Glenn know there'd be guns there? And isn't that the church that FPP went to with last night with Judith? He went outside the walls? Yes, I realize at that point it was probably moot. But I'd think you'd be walking into a lot of Walkers AND you wouldn't know what you were getting into by walking into an unsecured church. Plus, where did all those other people come from that were in the church? I assume ASZ. So all those people thought it best to flee through a storm of Walkers to go outside the wall (which was a single opening, right? Like a funnel) to go to a church that may or may not have Walkers in it or around it. It doesn't make sense. Help someone.

[magemaud]

 

Go to Day 536 here for the CDB-Alexandria timeline.

Thanks so much! I knew there was a website out there that spells everything out in chronological order. So, from what I can tell, the group arrived at the gates of Alexandria 16 days before last night's episode. That's certainly been an action packed two weeks! 

[lulee]

(My quote thingy isn't working. Or, I'm not working. Either way . . .)

Nashville, so the church was outside ASZ? Then, how/why did Glenn know there'd be guns there? And isn't that the church that FPP went to with last night with Judith? He went outside the walls? Yes, I realize at that point it was probably moot. But I'd think you'd be walking into a lot of Walkers AND you wouldn't know what you were getting into by walking into an unsecured church. Plus, where did all those other people come from that were in the church? I assume ASZ. So all those people thought it best to flee through a storm of Walkers to go outside the wall (which was a single opening, right? Like a funnel) to go to a church that may or may not have Walkers in it or around it. It doesn't make sense. Help someone.

Glenn and Enid were outside at a never-before-seen church. He wasn't sure that there would be guns, but he had a line of exposition about it might depend on whether Aiden's group or Heath's group had been there (obviously 0 faith in Aiden to do something smart like stash weapons).

Gabriel's church was in a garage within the community. He and Judith didn't go outside the walls.

At least I think that's what happened.

[meep.meep]

I totally agree with this. We can talk about other factors being part of the reason Sam freak out but we can't leave Carol out of it. The writers made sure that we saw that it wasn't memory of his father beating up his mother or Rick killing his father that freaked him out but the words and images that Carol put in his head. Carol didn't do it as way to make him tough or anything like that, Carol did it to protect her own ass. She knew it would have a negative affect on Sam, because she used it to keep him silence but she didn't care. Carol played a part in this and I won't excuse her actions or make it seems like she was being helpful to the kid. She was being a cold-blooded manipulative bitch and I honestly don't have a problem with that but I won't call it something it wasn't.

 

This.

Plus if anyone should have been able to sympathize with Sam for having to grow up in a household where his father abused his mother, it should have been Carol.  Because she was the abused wife and knew what her daughter had gone through.  Instead, she used his fear to protect herself.

 

Everything bad that happened in Alexandria was the fault of Rick and his people.  They drew the Wolves there, and they had the bone headed idea to parade a herd of walkers past the town.  They don't know when they have it good.  Now the walls are down, there are dead walkers everywhere, they've lost the real doctor and three quarters of the population.  Excellent work.

[JackONeill]

At a point, before the showdown, FPP went into a church that held a handful of people. He handed Judith to a woman (who I'd never seen) and asked her to watch the baby. It looked like something more than his garage church. There was a biblical quote over the door. Now I can't remember what that was all about. Anybody? (I apologize for my short-term memory loss. . . . Oh, and what Forum am I in? Is there where I talk about cooking?)

[AngelaHunter]

Quote

The writers made sure that we saw that it wasn't memory of his father beating up his mother or Rick killing his father that freaked him out but the words and images that Carol put in his head.

 

I believe that Carol and Rick are suffering from genuine and serious mental/emotional illnesses at this point. I think that if they were magically transported into a normal world right now that they would need to be institutionalized.

 

Everyone is a little fucked up, but those two are certifiable, IMO.

 

There was a biblical quote over the door.

 

That quote was over the door of the other church where Glenn and Enid were having their philosophical  discussions, IIRC?

Edited February 16, 2016 by AngelaHunter

[Nashville]

(My quote thingy isn't working. Or, I'm not working. Either way . . .)

Nashville, so the church was outside ASZ? Then, how/why did Glenn know there'd be guns there?

Glenn did not know there would be guns there - but he suspected if survivors had holed up in the (now-deserted) church for any length of time, they may have hidden caches of weapons or ammo in case of emergency. As it turned out, his "Bible Glock" suspicions were correct.

And isn't that the church that FPP went to with last night with Judith? He went outside the walls? Yes, I realize at that point it was probably moot. But I'd think you'd be walking into a lot of Walkers AND you wouldn't know what you were getting into by walking into an unsecured church. Plus, where did all those other people come from that were in the church? I assume ASZ. So all those people thought it best to flee through a storm of Walkers to go outside the wall (which was a single opening, right? Like a funnel) to go to a church that may or may not have Walkers in it or around it. It doesn't make sense. Help someone.

No, FPP did not go to the same church used by Glenn and Enid; he did not go outside the Wall at all. FPP took Judith to the High Holy Church of Hyundai - i.e., the garage FPP had converted to a chapel within the ASZ, and for which he had put up flyers announcing services (remember Rick tearing down one of the flyers in an earlier episode?). Which is why other ASZHats ended up congregating there as well - outside of their own houses, FPP's chapel offered the only available sanctuary. Two different buildings.

Another potential memory jog: FPP's garage/chapel is where he and Sasha got into their big knock-down/drag-out - when she went to him looking for a minister, and found a dick in a collar instead.

[Nutjob]

 

They drew the Wolves there, and they had the bone headed idea to parade a herd of walkers past the town. They don't know when they have it good.  Now the walls are down, there are dead walkers everywhere, they've lost the real doctor and three quarters of the population.  Excellent work.

Aaron drew the Wolves there when he lost his backpack and left the pictures behind--otherwise they wouldn't have known about the town at all. Rick's idea was to draw the walkers away from the town before they got out on their own (which is what happened anyway, just prematurely)--it could have worked had the Wolves not shown up at Alexandria and drawn them back there with the commotion. It was be proactive and get the walkers out of there vs. let them get out on their own and deal with whatever happened after. The "real doctor" was beating his wife and kids, and Rick's attempts to stop it were thwarted by Deanna and the rest of the town because they valued Porchdick's skills over his family's safety--that situation should have been handled long before anyone from CDB showed up. Rick is mentally unstable, no doubt, but the things that have happened to Alexandria are not necessarily CDB's "fault." More like a series of unfortunate events, aided along by some people who had no clue what they were doing and Rick & Co. coming in like a hurricane to stir the pot.

 

Jessie should have put her foot down and made her clearly terrified son go to safety with FPP and the baby. He had already been making noise and they knew he was scared--he shouldn't have been out there in the first place. It doesn't excuse Carol's mind games, but Jessie was the parent and should have acted like it. Of course, without that chain of events we still have to listen to Ron whine about Enid and we miss out on CORL!! having his eye shot out, so I'll take it.

[bmoore4026]

Eyes High, on 14 Feb 2016 - 10:36 PM, said:Eyes High, on 14 Feb 2016 - 10:36 PM, said:

There was way more sexual tension between the Wolf and Denise than I ever saw between Tara and Denise. And Denise is a lesbian!

 

Well, she's "TV lesbian', meaning, if there were a bad enough man out there that turns out to be morally ambiguous and hot, she'll turn straight because institutionalized homophobia.

Edited February 16, 2016 by bmoore4026

[magemaud]

I get the feeling that Dr. Denise is not experienced with either sex and might respond to any kind of attention. 

[cincivic]

Who is Francine? What is the name of the guy who was in a vest and there was a shot of him looking out the window? He has dark hair and I recall him from other episodes. I think he was one who wanted to raid the pantry after Rick killed that walker.

Also,if someone could point out a thread I could go to get this question answered, please. Rick's group were given 2 houses when the arrived at ASZ. My DH and I have been trying to figure out the sleeping arrangements. How many bedrooms? Who sleeps were? TIA

[lulee]

Who is Francine? What is the name of the guy who was in a vest and there was a shot of him looking out the window? He has dark hair and I recall him from other episodes. I think he was one who wanted to raid the pantry after Rick killed that walker.

Also,if someone could point out a thread I could go to get this question answered, please. Rick's group were given 2 houses when the arrived at ASZ. My DH and I have been trying to figure out the sleeping arrangements. How many bedrooms? Who sleeps were? TIA

Francine is the Alexandrian with short dark hair who was on the construction crew on one of CDB's first days in Alexandria. Abraham noted that she seemed competent unlike some of the other Alexandrians.

 

The dark-haired guy is Spencer, Deanna's son.

I'm not sure but I think the arrangements were:

House A: Grimes family, Michonne, Darryl, Carol

House B: Maggie & Glenn, Tara, Abraham, Rosita, Eugene, and Noah (RIP) ... and maybe Gabriel but maybe he was elsewhere

Edited February 16, 2016 by lulee

[AngelaHunter]

There was way more sexual tension between the Wolf and Denise than I ever saw between Tara and Denise.

 

Am I the only one who saw nothing sexual in this? Maybe I'm dense or not attuned to these things but all I saw was Denise having a near-break-down from the terror of the situation she was put in by the creepy Wolf with the vile dental grill kidnapping her as a hostage. I don't think I'd be feeling very seductive were I in her place.

[SometimesBites]

Are there scenes in this show that make me roll my eyes? Oh yes (Rick and the Gov having a long talk in a storage shed; Beth and Daryl drinking moonshine and debating privilege). Characters that I want to see eaten ASAP? Indeed (Andrea, everyone at the rape hospital, Spencer--why is HE still alive?)

 

Does every episode hit every mark? No, and it never will. Does every. single. thing. in this show make perfect, coherent sense? No, and fuck no. And why should it?

 

What the hell fun would that be???

 

Thank the baby jebus TWD isn't written by viewer committee. I've never really understood the concept of expecting a show I'm hate-watching to also be GOOD. When I hate-watch it's with the understanding that it will be BAD.

 

I'm starting to suspect that a whole lot of posters must be tapped in to some mystical, magical realm of television that is fabulous beyond all power of reckoning, 'cause they sure do love to hate TWD--and for any and all its bobbles, I'm still having a blast with it. :)

[Nashville]

Who is Francine?

The woman Abraham rescued on the construction site. Francine was doing lookout duty in a loader bucket, but she fell during a walker attack. When Tobin and his ASZHat crew abandoned her and ran the other way, Abraham charged in and rescued her - inspiring the other ASZHats to stand their ground and repel the walker horde.

What is the name of the guy who was in a vest and there was a shot of him looking out the window? He has dark hair and I recall him from other episodes. I think he was one who wanted to raid the pantry after Rick killed that walker.

Think you're talking about Bruce - the guy in this conversation?:

[spencer tries to stop the Alexandrian's from raiding the pantry of food]

Bruce: Why don't you go make sure the gate's closed, Spencer?

Spencer Monroe: Yeah. That was me. I did that. But that truck outside the walls, it'd be inside if it wasn't for me. I did that, too. If I didn't, maybe we wouldn't be talking right now. Where were you, Bruce?

[bruce looks down]

Spencer Monroe: Doing this will start us down a road where nothing matters. Where no one else matters. And then we'll all look back at this moment right now as when we destroyed this place.

[the Alexandrian's begin putting the food back as Deanna holds her head up proud looking to her son]

ETA: more Bruce stuff

Edited February 17, 2016 by Nashville

[Omar G.]

 LOVED the hack montage GIFs.

"...and many balls were found on that day."

 

 

This is great, covering so many of the complaints about this episode in a delightful way!

 

Thank you muchly! Let's do this again next week, shall we?

[Nutjob]

Am I the only one who saw nothing sexual in this? Maybe I'm dense or not attuned to these things but all I saw was Denise having a near-break-down from the terror of the situation she was put in by the creepy Wolf with the vile dental grill kidnapping her as a hostage. I don't think I'd be feeling very seductive were I in her place.

I didn't see anything sexual from Denise's perspective at all. Alpha Wolf had a creepy stalkerish Chester Molester vibe about him with everyone, but poor Denise was just panicking and scared out of her mind.  All I saw was her trying to placate him while she tried to figure out a way out of her predicament.

[walnutqueen]

Am I the only one who saw nothing sexual in this? Maybe I'm dense or not attuned to these things but all I saw was Denise having a near-break-down from the terror of the situation she was put in by the creepy Wolf with the vile dental grill kidnapping her as a hostage. I don't think I'd be feeling very seductive were I in her place.

 

I did not see one iota of sexual tension or anything but abject fear and revulsion in Dr. D.  I also see nothing remotely attractive about the Wolf, even cleaned up for TD.

[lulee]

This.

Plus if anyone should have been able to sympathize with Sam for having to grow up in a household where his father abused his mother, it should have been Carol. Because she was the abused wife and knew what her daughter had gone through. Instead, she used his fear to protect herself.

No. in reference to Carol's words that Sam heard while he began to panic about wading through the herd: she said that to him in "Forget" and didn't discover that Pete was abusive until the next episode ("Spend"). So while Carol's misdeeds and poor/twisted judgment - including that it's awful to threaten any child - have been cataloged over the Alexandria episode threads, I don't think lack of psychic powers about a particular child's homelife can be seen as another demerit for her. Edited February 17, 2016 by lulee

[AngelaHunter]

Does every. single. thing. in this show make perfect, coherent sense?

 

Not even the very best shows make perfect sense every single second. Humans don't make sense all the time and I'm pretty easy at suspending disbelief when it comes to my entertainment. I really want to like this show and don't want it to be one of those "love to hate" things. Shows about zombies will never make a whole lot of sense. I don't mind some illogic and can usually overlook slips here and there. It's when something is glaringly, insultingly dumb(i.e.Rick and gang standing around having conversations complete with pregnant pauses right in the middle of a huge zombie herd and where, by the way, not a single zombie ever even bumps into one of them) that I get annoyed.

[TexasChic]

I didn't see anything sexual from Denise's perspective at all. Alpha Wolf had a creepy stalkerish Chester Molester vibe about him with everyone, but poor Denise was just panicking and scared out of her mind.  All I saw was her trying to placate him while she tried to figure out a way out of her predicament.

I didn't see the encounter as remotely romantic either. At one point she bluntly told him to go to hell. I think he became fascinated with her and wanted to make her a wolf - whatever that may be. He also kept telling her if she just walked out to the fence they would be fine and be able to leave easily. I think he was shocked when the walker bit him, because he somehow thought they were impervious.

[TexasChic]

Everything bad that happened in Alexandria was the fault of Rick and his people. They drew the Wolves there, and they had the bone headed idea to parade a herd of walkers past the town. They don't know when they have it good. Now the walls are down, there are dead walkers everywhere, they've lost the real doctor and three quarters of the population. Excellent work.

They were only safe as long as they were because of the way the walkers got trapped at the quarry. Once they busted loose, the walls would have inevitably gave way. They would have been slaughtered if it weren't for CDB.

Edited February 17, 2016 by TexasChic

[Dodginblue]

Am I the only one who saw nothing sexual in this? Maybe I'm dense or not attuned to these things but all I saw was Denise having a near-break-down from the terror of the situation she was put in by the creepy Wolf with the vile dental grill kidnapping her as a hostage. I don't think I'd be feeling very seductive were I in her place.

Some kind of sexual attraction didn't occur to me either.  What I saw was a terrified woman who was trying to keep herself together and attempting to engage with her captor in a way that would hopefully keep him from killing her.    The idea that she would be attracted to this creepy guy who was part of a bunch of her neighbors being killed and might be about to kill her or get her killed by forcing her to run into the walker horde, it seems like a really bizarre and unbelievable notion.

[Ohwell]

They were only safe as long as they were because of the way the walkers got trapped at the quarry. Once they busted loose, the walls would have inevitably gave way. They would have been slaughtered if it weren't for CDB.

Yes, they would have been slaughtered eventually, but at least they would have been fat and happy a little while longer.  When CDB came into the picture, shit went down fast and most of their people got slaughtered anyway.

[TexasChic]

Yes, they would have been slaughtered eventually, but at least they would have been fat and happy a little while longer.  When CDB came into the picture, shit went down fast and most of their people got slaughtered anyway.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think the dozen or so that are left now are better than all of them slaughtered when the hoard broke loose. That happened shortly after Rick and his crew arrived, and if CDB hadn't led the majority away, it would have been a massacre.

[maplebrew]

When CDB came into the picture, shit went down fast and most of their people got slaughtered anyway.

 

 

What can we say except that Rick and his people "are a plague." One can never over use this Hershel quote. Most of the time I don't blame CDB for the fact that trouble has a way of finding them. But find them trouble does like in this episode. Red shirts die. Rick grows out some stubble, he does his sir hacks-a-lot bit and Rick + the Atlanta originals survive.

[cincivic]

Bruce! Thanks!

[peach]

Some kind of sexual attraction didn't occur to me either.  What I saw was a terrified woman who was trying to keep herself together and attempting to engage with her captor in a way that would hopefully keep him from killing her.    The idea that she would be attracted to this creepy guy who was part of a bunch of her neighbors being killed and might be about to kill her or get her killed by forcing her to run into the walker horde, it seems like a really bizarre and unbelievable notion.

 

I thought she was casting glances at his gun and sort of wondering if she could get away from him.  No sexual tension at all.  The Wolf, being totally nuts, seemed to be relishing the idea of turning her into another Wolf, especially considering most of his friends were deaded.  But he also acknowledged maybe not.  I thought she showed smarts by saying she could save his life, because I'm pretty sure Denise knew there was no f'ing way that was true, but she could use him to get back to her home base.  He was toast anyway, so it wasn't a huge risk to bring him back.  And since her terror wimp state has passed, I no longer want her to get eaten.

[TattleTeeny]

The Wolf cleans up well. Benedict Samuels? I'd hit that...and not in the "with Morgan's stick" way.

 

I don't know how "clean[ed] up" this is, but I saw a photo of him looking very much like Chris Cornell, so yeah...that Unfair Wolf is pretty darn cute in my book.

Edited February 17, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[Nashville]

Everything bad that happened in Alexandria was the fault of Rick and his people.  They drew the Wolves there, and they had the bone headed idea to parade a herd of walkers past the town.  They don't know when they have it good.  Now the walls are down, there are dead walkers everywhere, they've lost the real doctor and three quarters of the population.  Excellent work.

 

Wow.  This is unusual for me - total disagreement.  Everything bad that happened in Alexandria was the fault of Alexandria's own; Rick and his people were, in fact, the ASZHat's only saving grace:

• It was Aaron (Alexandria's recruiter) who drew the Wolves to Alexandria, not CDB.  The Wolves learned of Alexandria's existence because Aaron dropped his backpack at the semi trailer trap site.  Aaron and Daryl nearly got caught in the trap because Aaron couldn't resist the temptation of the semi trailers potentially being loaded with food.  And it was Aaron who sprang the trap, because he didn't check for a trap before attempting to open a trailer, nor did Aaron notice the semi trailer doors were wired.  Daryl disagreed with Aaron on the whole shebang because Daryl wanted to keep their trip strictly a recruiting trip, and not mess around with scouting.
• One problem with your contention RE the herd: Rick's plan was working.  The herd was managed and on track to walk clean out of sight, right up until the Wolf truck's air horn started drawing half the herd Alexandria's way - and even then Rick's plan continued to work for the other half of the herd.
• "They don't know when they have it good"???  More accurate to say they (the ASZHats) don't know, period.  They didn't know they had a honey-pot quarry full of walkers, until days before the pot was set to crack wide open.  They didn't know what to do about it, until Rick came up with a plan - not necessarily a great plan, but better than just sitting around with their thumbs up their collective asses waiting to be engulfed by a full-force walker megaherd.  They don't know how to defend themselves, and in fact drug their heels about learning how when Rick&Co. tried teaching them; this attitude left them almost totally defenseless when the Wolves showed up, offering no resistance to the Wolves except from members of CDB (and Morgan, to a lesser extent) - who successfully repelled the Wolves.
• The truck brought by the Aaron-drawn Wolves toppled the watch tower and took the walls down - not CDB.
• The air horn on the self-same truck drew the walkers - not CDB.
• Dead walkers (isn't that a little redundant, BTW?) everywhere are preferable to dead ASZHats everywhere - from the ASZHat perspective, anyway.  Or so I would assume.
• The "real doctor"?  By which you mean the alcoholic, wife-beating, child-beating porchdick?  You really want THAT surgeon taking a knife to you when his DTs start kicking in?  Personally, I've always had the impression Pete quite possibly took at least as many lives as he saved; the ASZHats just put up with his behavior because he was the best they had.  Or so he told them.
• 25% of the population is better than 0%.  If it weren't for Rick and his people, the only question would be whether 100% ASZHat mortality would be achieved first by Wolf or by walker.

 

Fact of the matter is - if CDB hadn't shown up, Alexandria would have been nothing more than a wine-sipping, pasta-machine-pining buffet waiting for something - ANYTHING, really - with an appetite to show up and chow down.

 

I didn't see the encounter as remotely romantic either. At one point she bluntly told him to go to hell. I think he became fascinated with her and wanted to make her a wolf - whatever that may be. He also kept telling her if she just walked out to the fence they would be fine and be able to leave easily. I think he was shocked when the walker bit him, because he somehow thought they were impervious.

 

Pardon my French, but - echo echo fucking echo.  At no point did I get any kind of vibe of a sexual component to Wolfy's fascination.

[mightysparrow]

I don't understand why so many people give Carol such a pass for her shit. It's not just Sam's breakdown, the kid may have freaked out without her, but she set so many of these events off in the first place.

She started when they got to Alexandria by playing Rick not only against the town, but playing him against the rest of CDB too, trying to get him not to trust anyone.

She then delibrately pushed prochdick in the incident that set him over the edge to get all throat slicey on Deanna's husband.

And as dumb as what Morgan did was, he was right that in the middle of the Walker attack was not the time for Carol to try to deal with any of it.

So much went to shit because of the things she did. She's really only had one redeeming moment in years (albeit a big one, in the terminus rescue)

I'm ready to see her die.

 

Oh God, from your mouth to God's ears.  I want that bitch to go hug a walker just like she does in the comic.  Even though her inexplicably large fandom insist that she's the patron saint of the ZA, Carol is just a mean-spirited, small person who gets off on hurting people,  MMB is one of the most over-rated actors in television history.  I hate that they've practically destroyed a great character like Morgan to prop up Carol's ass and sincerely pray that Lennie James only signed a contract for one season.

 

My heart sank during the episode because I knew that calls for 'Richonne' would ring throughout the land.  The thought of my poor Michonne getting stuck with fucking Rick Grimes makes me ill.  Michonne deserves more than to be the Grimes' family live-in help.  Has Rick EVER even said 'thank you' to Michonne for all the times she's busted her shapely ass for him and his brats?  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to guess that Rick is hopeless in the sack.  That's why Lori jumped on Shane's jock the second Rick's eyes closed.

 

Why can't Morgan escape the vortex of suck that is Carol and run to Michonne's well-toned arms?  Let Rick have Carol; they deserve each other.  I couldn't believe that Rick didn't even bother to wait to see if his kid would survive getting shot in the fucking face.  No, the man whose plans had already fucked up an entire town decided it would be a good idea to take out his rage on 20000 zombies.  The same 20000 zombies his earlier plan was supposed to get rid of.  Of course, faithful Michonne HAS to follow and suddenly the whole town is involved in one of the lamest montages EVER.  Luckily for whoever came up with the montage idea, Rick's ghastly speech was much, much worse.

 

Why do I watch this show?  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.  I keep hoping that the show I loved will return and I need to accept that show is long gone.

Edited February 17, 2016 by mightysparrow

[AndySmith]

So far as "how many churches": Georgia OR Virginia, doesn't really matter - you're square in the buckle of the Bible Belt

 

Well...that part of Virginia can't really be considered part of the Bible Belt. Hell most southerners I know don't even consider NOVA to be part of the south anymore.

 

I hate that they've practically destroyed a great actor like Morgan

 

Eh, I always thought Morgan sucked from the beginning, so nothing to destroy. Never saw the appeal in him.

[Desiree]

I loved this episode!!!! I haven't been this engaged in an episode in a really long time. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the show as much now as I did season 1, however I find myself distracted more often than not during its airing and having to rewind to find out what I missed. This episode kept my attention from minute 1 till the end. And had me re-watching it tonight. 

 

As for how illogical it can get. Come on!!! We're talking about zombies!! The literal Walking Dead. You can't get any more illogical than that! Which makes it very easy for me to just take everything with a grain of salt. Would I like the show better written, sure, see my mention of being distracted while watching it, but it's damn fun when they pull out all the stops like they did with this past episode and that's mainly why I watch. 

 

While re-watching tonight, I had a thought. About the sudden nightfall and the mention that the creatives wanted a zombie fight during the night. I think also it was practical. Daryls little RPG/ gas filled lake trick wouldn't have had as much effect, if it were day time. What seemed to initially draw the walkers closest to the lake was the blast of the RPG, the noise got their attention for sure. What kept their attention and drew them there, the Walkers not directly fighting CDB at this point, was the flicker of the flames. Which in daylight wouldn't have been quite as attractive to them as the sunlight would have blunted the flame light so to speak. So the Walkers went towards the dancing light of the flame against the night. Now, in order to achieve that, the fight needs to start at night, which since that started almost immediately after Rick and Co brought Carl to the infirmary, if it were still day time, the group would have been exhausted by the time Daryl and Friends showed up with their toys and set the night on fire. I imagine that script had not been written yet when they shot the last episode, so in order to get to that point in the night - longest, slowest walk in Alexandria history. 

 

My take on Denise talking the Wolf into going to the infirmary, wasn't that where Aaron and company were? I'm not sure if she knew that, but even if she didn't, there are drugs there that she could inject into him to knock him out and it'll keep her inside the walls of the town. All she would need to say is she's giving him an antibiotic to help with infection, he wouldn't know the difference until he started to black out and then it's too late. And by that point, I'd imagine he'd have put the gun down to let her work on him. 

 

My thoughts on Carl? What a great manicure he's been able to keep in the Zombie Apocalypse. Especially when he doesn't seem to care too much what his hair looks like. Someone please give that teenager a hair cut. And make Daryl shower. I can smell him from my apt in Los Angeles. 

 

I agree the with poster up top who said Bear Mccrearys soundtrack for the zombie fight montage was incredible. I was actually getting goosebumps and chills watching that sequence because of the music. A great composer and great piece of music, really adds so much more to film. That sequence could have been so much cheesier than it was with a different composer and different piece of music. It was almost beautiful, the music, the sequence and how it was shot and lit. Good stuff!