S06.E06: Season 6, Episode 6

[proserpina65]

I thought Anna and Mr Bates were living in one of the cottages provided by the family too, but Mr Bates mentioned that they could sell the house when he and Anna were discussing how to pay Mary's fancy lady parts doctor.

That's right, he did.  I am now totally confused.  I guess all will become clear in the fullness of time.  Or not.

[SusanSunflower]

I thought they had already sold the house (that became his with the death of his wife or something like that, maybe in London?) ...but anyway the plan was that they would sell that house and buy a small hotel ... all of which is apart from living in a cottage on Downton grounds ... 

Carson and Hughes -- I think -- have bought one of the new houses being build by Downton on the periphery of the estate ... which they were planning on turning into some sort of hotel as well ... 

 

 

from downton wiki (not infallible but) 

 

""Inspired by their visit to Mrs Patmore's cottage then, Carson nervously asks Mrs Hughes if she would consider investing in a property with him. His idea is that they could rent it out or run and Bed and Breakfast, so that they might increase their savings by the time they retired. While her answer to him is not direct, it is clear that she is overcome by this business proposal, and that she thinks his intentions might be to venture farther than that in the future.""

then in Christmas special 

""After viewing a number of cottages together, Mrs Hughes tells Carson that she did not have the money to invest in the first place, although she would have liked to come in with him, had she been able. Ashamed and almost heartbroken, it is strongly suggested here that his intent had always been to share the project with her especially, and to possibly retire together one day. At Christmas, he steals her away from the carolling upstairs, and tells her that he has bought the house in both their names. And when Mrs Hughes rejects the idea again, claiming he would not want to be stuck with her for the years to come, Carson insists that he does need want to be 'stuck' with her."" 

Still I believe I heard (circa the wedding) that their home is under construction ... 

Edited February 9, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[proserpina65]

I see your point (even though I'm a big Thomas fan), but I would be a little more on Carson's side if he weren't so gleeful about putting Thomas in his place. Thomas has done his share of bad things (more than his share, honestly), but Carson just seems to revel in making Thomas feel unwanted, unwelcome, un-whatever.

 

Carson has a major superiority complex, and it shows most glaringly in his dealings with Thomas. I think that Carson probably, if he would expand his mind by a molecule or two, realize that maybe Thomas' word has some value. And also that, after the business with Jimmy, it's extremely unlikely that Thomas would behave the same way on the Downton premises. Again, I say this as someone who likes Thomas -- probably mostly because Rob James-Collier does such a good job of showing the humanity beneath Thomas' bad behavior -- so I get that others may disagree.

 

But also, Carson has become such a tool in the past few episodes that I would probably be on Thomas' side no matter what. 

I can't really argue with this assessment of Carson.  And I will agree that RJC does really get those moments of humanity, which are, I have to add, part of why I find Thomas such a frustrating character.  There are hints of a good person in there, but he never seems to learn from his mistakes.  He says that he wants people to like him, then he goes and treats them like crap.  <sigh>

[SusanSunflower]

The Bates' property was his mother's home which was ceded to Vera as part of her extortion wrt divorce ... and reverted to him on Vera's death. 

[Nancybeth]

Is it possible that the unnamed, never-before-mentioned librarian is actually the village librarian?  And perhaps he manages the books and historic papers and whatnot at the big house as well? 

 

The problem with Barrow is that for every one step he takes forward towards redemption, there are two steps back.  I'm not sure the good side of him has ever outweighed all the black marks against him.  I mean, especially in the first couple seasons he was really not nice to anyone and always scheming. 

[helenamonster]

The librarian has been mentioned before. When Michael Gregson came to visit Downton, he asked if he could see their Gutenberg Bible, and Robert said he didn't know where it was, that the librarian kept track of everything.

 

So I guess there was a hint before that the family knew fuck all about the house that they're so proud of.

[RedHawk]

Hehe! Maybe Daisy will take up Mrs. Hughes' downtrodden-wife situation as her next "cause". 

Edited February 9, 2016 by RedHawk

[SusanSunflower]

I would have expected both Edith and Mary to have been very well taught their heritage by Violet (if not Cora) and might have expected her to have been outraged at their ignorance (blaming Cora); however, I admit I was rather surprised that the paying guests were quite so inquisitive and apparently knowledgeable and so many were willing to part with 6d for the privilege. 

 

Wasn't opening at least part of the house part of the annual fete?  I have no idea. 

[dangwoodchucks]

I loved Carson's expression when Robert suggested Mary in the bath as one of the things visitors could see in the house.

[ShadowFacts]

I don't know where Carson gets the balls to criticize Mrs. Hughes' housekeeping skills since she is . . . head housekeeper.  She presumably didn't get to that position without rising through the ranks herself.  She knows how to do all of it even if she hasn't done it on a daily basis for years.  To get some pointers from staff?  That she supervises?  Hell no. 

Edited February 9, 2016 by ShadowFacts

[JudyObscure]

If Mary does know that Marigold is her sister's child, how nasty is she then to speak of her own niece as she did in this last episode; it is why I am hoping like hell she doesn't really know because otherwise, it is really despicable behavior about a child. (My opinion only!)

 

My opinion, too.  Even if Mary still believes Marigold is only Edith's ward, it's still awful to talk about being "saddled with her," as though she were so much unwanted baggage.

 

Daisy seems like she's bipolar.

Bipolar people have extreme mood swings from euphoric to depressed.  Daisy is just the opposite, her cruise control is permanently stuck on selfish bitch.

 

I hope Mrs. Hughes tells Carson that Baxter says "his Lordship," has given up sex along with the wine.

 

I must be the only one, but I thought Lord Grantham musing that maybe the tourists were hoping to see Mary in the bath was creepy.  He and Carson both think a little too much about Mary's awesome beauty for me.  The way they both watched her come down the stairs in her wedding dress  was over done to me.

Edited February 9, 2016 by JudyObscure

[statsgirl]

How could you own a Guttenburg Bible and not know where it is??????

 

 

The thing is, if Carson still thinks Thomas cannot be trusted, he should have been let go a long time ago.  Carson is full of himself and abuses his power by being a bitch to Thomas, piling on the verbal abuse.  We now see the love of power bubbling up in his treatment of Mrs. Hughes. If Thomas can't be trusted, Carson is breaching his duty a little in not protecting the house and family he loves so much from the nasty, terrible, untrustworthy under butler who he just happens to enjoy tormenting.  It's unseemly, and makes Carson look worse in my eyes than Thomas, who has made significant progress -- he didn't say one nasty word to either of the men he interviewed with, and was in fact kind to the addled old aristocrat, when no one else could see.  Not to mention wanting to help Andrew, and having helped Jimmy.  There's some balance to the crappy things he has pulled, some forward movement.  Carson is stuck being an ass.

 

This makes me worry about Mrs. Hughes future.

 

I can understand why she married him even knowing how autocratic he can be.  She didn't have any money to retire on, and there was no government assistance at the time. She was looking at a very bleak future and she was fond of him.

 

But now the tyrant has been unleashed, and when he retires from being The Butler, the only one he'll have to give orders to is his wife.  So far she's taken everything, even more than before they were married, which surprises me.

 

If she doesn't do something soon, she's going to end up being an abused wife.  Emotionally if not physically.

 

 

I hope Mrs. Hughes tells Carson that Baxter says "his Lordship," has given up sex along with the wine.

LOL.  Can you imagine having to fulfill your wifely duties with that?  Close your eyes and think of England.

[kassa]

Trying hard to find an alternative scenario in which newlywed Carson is terrified of revealing his off-duty self to Mrs. Hughes -

 

 

Now I'm picturing him as a closet nudist.  "It's a little warm in here, is it not, Mrs. Carson?  I am going to draw the curtains and remove my... jacket."

 

I have to believe that all of this rage-inducing criticism from Carson is leading to some kind of Come to Jesus speech from Mrs. Hughes.  She's been written too strong and sensible for too many years to have marriage transform her into an emotional punching bag.

[ShadowFacts]

The librarian has been mentioned before. When Michael Gregson came to visit Downton, he asked if he could see their Gutenberg Bible, and Robert said he didn't know where it was, that the librarian kept track of everything.

 

So I guess there was a hint before that the family knew fuck all about the house that they're so proud of.

 

I remember back then when I thought Gregson might be a little shady, that he could possibly find that Gutenberg and make off with it, and no one would be the wiser.  That must still be the case, that the family is so careless/trusting about their historical treasures that they could disappear and it would be awhile before the librarian would notice.  Or they could get smart and start finding things they could part with and make some money that way.  Between that and as someone else mentioned, economizing with the ladies' wardrobes, they wouldn't need to sack staff.  Cora should know a thing or two about the art, as she seemed to with the della Robbia , when the sleazy art expert tried to get a little action with her. 

[SusanSunflower]

I didn't think art expert was "sleazy" rather that a certain amount of flattery (even sexual favors) might well be part of the service ... and lead to recommendations of his expertise to friends.

 

I couldn't decide how much of his line-of-talk was genuine, but "kissing up to the rich folks" and extramarital dalliances were not unknown ... ever.  I had a very attractive boyfriend who was recommended to do some heavy-lifting work for the widow of a famous (libertine) man (she was about 80) who certainly suggested rewards for personal services and couldn't keep her hands off him when I met her. I would not be at all surprised if he willingly "performed." It was a long time ago and far away, but I was quite surprised by her boldness. My brothers, both strapping young men around that same time, similarly fended off or indulged bored housewives among the wealthy summer residents ...  expectations and "entitlement" of the upper classes, see Gosford Park, see Mrs. Robinson

Edited February 9, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Capricasix]

Wasn't the librarian mentioned in S1, the day Branson was introduced? He met Lord Grantham in the library, and LG said that he was welcome to check out any books he liked as long as he signed them out in the ledger that even the girls had to sign when they took books out. I want to say that the librarian was mentioned then, but I can't remember.

[jumper sage]

I liked in the last episode when Sybby asked about the Sphinx and Robert answered - The castle they film in has many objects of Egypt in the smoking room, I believe.

 

Off topic - sorry:  I was watching an old episode of British Baking Show and in the intro there is a little girl who looks a lot like Marigold.

[dangwoodchucks]

Wasn't the librarian mentioned in S1, the day Branson was introduced? He met Lord Grantham in the library, and LG said that he was welcome to check out any books he liked as long as he signed them out in the ledger that even the girls had to sign when they took books out. I want to say that the librarian was mentioned then, but I can't remember.

Where is this librarian? I'm picturing a little old bespectacled man whose office is behind a door hidden in the bookcases in the library.

[RedHawk]

I'm thinking now about how Mrs. Hughes and Anna deal with being "housewives" after working all day at the Abbey. Mrs. Hughes has certainly traded her situation for a worse one. No more coffee in bed or maids making it up with perfectly squared corners. I'll bet Carson snores like a buzz saw. Anna at least got to move from a bare attic room to a homey private cottage. Does she have to do all the cleaning on her one half-day off? What about laundry?

 

Mrs. Hughes is a cautionary tale! I'll only be pleased if Carson soon leaves her a widow endowed with all his worldly goods. 

Edited February 9, 2016 by RedHawk

[Andorra]

Wasn't the librarian mentioned in S1, the day Branson was introduced? He met Lord Grantham in the library, and LG said that he was welcome to check out any books he liked as long as he signed them out in the ledger that even the girls had to sign when they took books out. I want to say that the librarian was mentioned then, but I can't remember.

 

No, there wasn't a librarian mentioned in that episode. The Librarian was only mentioned when Gregson was there for a visit and Robert told him they had a Gutenberg bible, but he had no idea where and the librarian wasn't there that day. (I thought it was ridiculous that they would have a Gutenberg Bible and just have it stand around in a dusty corner? Very unbelievable!). 

[Capricasix]

Ah, OK.

[blackwing]

I always got the impression that the librarian isn't someone who is at the house full-time.  Not sure why I have thought that, but I always thought he was someone who would come once a week and sort everything back into its proper place.  It was odd though that they wouldn't have the librarian on hand for the opening.  Maybe he's having tea with Madge somewhere.

 

Why would the actress playing Daisy be screwed in the future?  She is playing the character as she has been directed by the director.  And, she is doing a good job of it given how many people are so put off by the character now when we watch.  It's not like the actress is making the acting choices herself for the role.

I think the concern is that she could be setting herself up to be typecast.  She played a shrew in the Cinderella movie and she has devolved into a hideous shrew on DA, it could be that the parts she gets offered in the future consist largely of young shrews.  I thought Dan Stevens quit because he didn't want to be typecast as the "blonde golden boy" and I suspect that the actress who played O'Brien quit because she didn't want to be forever known as the villain.  

[sark1624]

No, there wasn't a librarian mentioned in that episode. The Librarian was only mentioned when Gregson was there for a visit and Robert told him they had a Gutenberg bible, but he had no idea where and the librarian wasn't there that day. (I thought it was ridiculous that they would have a Gutenberg Bible and just have it stand around in a dusty corner? Very unbelievable!). 

 

Agree, a family like the Crawleys would have known all the history of the house, the history of every paint there. Even "poor" aristocrats at least had the consolotaion price of knowing all their ancestries and their "deeds". Also if they had a element like that they could have easily sell it and obtain a fortune, if JF wanted to show the Crawleys like if they were a odd thing it would have been better if that the people visiting the house asked question like: why do you change for dinner? isnt very tedious doing that every day? why having tea in this room and not in other? so you cant dress yourself? 

[SusanSunflower]

Type casting is one reason. The other is the matter both salary and career potential -- having to turn down much more interesting parts (often for new improved salary) because you're under contract is a quite real incentive to get out while you're on the upswing ... the more middle aged characters are happy for steady work ($$$) for so very long and the exposure ... but I suspect that McGovern and Bonneville, etc. were all very carefully and generously contracted  after Stevens left ...  particularly since their roles really have not expanded enough to be worth the years of  "treading water" in the same old part. 

 

Note that Bonneville and McGovern really don't need to worry about typecasting ... Carmichael and Dockerty being younger and relatively untried do .. Most of the older actors had plenty of credits before the first DA episode aired. That's how they got their parts. 

Edited February 9, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Llywela]

Mrs. Drewe always struck me as being a bit off-kilter. She should have been very pleased to have Lady Edith Crawley take an interest in Marigold, as that connection would have improved Marigold's prospects immensely. Lots of parents hoped for that for their children, that a wealthy patron would take an interest. Mrs. Drewe was instead jealous and resentful and paranoid from the beginning and eventually banned Edith from seeing Marigold at all, which was not in Marigold's best interests.

See, it's that 'should have' that gets me, because there is no 'should have' about it and using the phrase smacks of the kind of classist snobbery that we've spent the last century or more trying to break away from - that sense that the lower order should know their place and be grateful for whatever crumbs the aristocracy deign to toss their way. No. Working people are still people, with minds and opinions and feelings all their own. Mrs Drewe couldn't be 'pleased' that Lady Edith Crawley was taking an interest in her adopted daughter because she knew in her gut that something was wrong - and she was right. There was something wrong. It wasn't a normal case of a grand lady taking an interest in an orphaned child - such an interest would only ever be casual, whereas Edith's interest in the child was increasingly obsessive. Margie wasn't resentful and paranoid from the beginning - she was wary, because Edith's behaviour wasn't normal, and she would have been failing in her duty as a parent if she ignored those red flags. And that wariness grew exponentially in line with Edith's growing desperation to be close to Marigold.

 

Look, we can sympathise with Edith without twisting things to try to make Margie Drewe the villain of the piece. She wasn't. She didn't ask for any of what happened - it was Edith who approached her family to take Marigold. She was just a decent, hard-working mother who took in what she believed to be an orphan, loved her and cared for her for a year, and then had her snatched away. The tragedy of the story is that both Edith and Margie loved Marigold and acted accordingly, based on gut instincts and the information available to them. None of them ever intended things to work out the way they did - it was just a chemical cocktail of personalities and circumstances that spiralled out of control. But it was Edith's decision to approach Mr Drewe about Marigold that set that ball rolling.

[scenicbyway]

I'm thinking now about how Mrs. Hughes and Anna deal with being "housewives" after working all day at the Abbey. Mrs. Hughes has certainly traded her situation for a worse one. No more coffee in bed or maids making it up with perfectly squared corners. I'll bet Carson snores like a buzz saw. Anna at least got to move from a bare attic room to a homey private cottage. Does she have to do all the cleaning on her one half-day off? What about laundry?

 

Mrs. Hughes is a cautionary tale! I'll only be pleased if Carson soon leaves her a widow endowed with all his worldly goods. 

I get the impression that the staff's laundry is done at the main house.  The Bates' seem to take all of their meals at the main house, with the rare meal out, which is probably why Carson wanting to eat at home was such a big deal.  I think Mrs. Hughes having coffee brought to her room on her wedding day was special and not an everyday occurrence.

The Bates' also seem to leave for work in the dark and come home in the dark but it appears that all servants get some time off in the afternoon between lunch and dinner, even Mrs. Patmore and Daisy go into town or visiting in the afternoon.

[SusanSunflower]

It's "interesting" to wonder who has been delegated to be on standby when Bates and Anna and now Carson and Hughes are out of the building, in fact making a very good case for Thomas to be standby butler and Molesley as off-hours valet to Robert ... with additional off-hour duties (Anna and Hughes) also going to Baxter ... meh. The scene of Bates and Anna walking to the big house in the "early morning" seemed off to me -- even though neither Robert nor Mary have ever been shown to be early risers .. still -- the sun was out and the sky was blue as they "sauntered" ...  FWIW, I assumed they were talking about being late for their own breakfast ... 

Wouldn't Hughes and/or Carson be needed in the house until quite late... to ensure everyone (not just the visible staff) got their work done and got the house ready for the morning -- trust staff to be behave "properly" -- doubtful. 

Edited February 9, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[lulee]

Edith and Mr. Drew should have stuck to her original story of Marigold being Edith's friend's child. That would have at least created a reason for Edith to take a special interest in the girl.

On topic: thinking about the couples including the Carsons, Fellowes had mined incompatibility for drama and humor, but I appreciate that except for some ill-advised hiccups (coughJanecough, for instance) Robert and Cora have been good spouses for most of the series and most of 35-ish years.

Edited February 10, 2016 by lulee

[Wordsworth]

Don't worry about the Carsons.  There's a period of getting used to the way other people do things when they get married.  I don't think Carson's a jerk.  He's just never been married before and is used to being the one in charge in the big house, too.  

 

And they do love each other.  They just have to figure the whole thing out.

 

Yes, he's being difficult with Thomas.  Thomas is a difficult person.  Carson hasn't cared for him since season 1 when he was caught stealing.  He spent four years plotting with Miss O'Brien, causing random trouble in the house.  He lorded it over the servants when he represented the army during the war.  He dabbled in the Black Market.  He nearly caused a scandal himself by being misled by O'Brien over Jimmy.

 

Carson's a traditionalist.  It's as hard for him to accept the change in The Way Things Are as it has been for Robert. Robert seems to be coming around.  Carson's a little older than he is, so it will take more time.

 

I still enjoy watching him.  

[sark1624]

Robert has matured, his darling daughter Sybil married the chauffeaur, Edith had a child out wedlock, Mary has her history with the turk and her sketching trip, he nearly lost Downton, he kissed a maid, one of his heir died, also her daughter, etc. Even being a rich and sheltered person, Robert had seen a little of the world and the real problems.. 

 

Carson is a traditionalist, conservatie, a man of his time, and also hadnt seen much of the world, his world was basically going of his bedroom, to the servants hall and to the dinning room and this has being his life in the las 30 o 40 years. Remember that in the second season Mrs Hughes mocked about the standars of Carson even when was a world war was being fought.  

[skyways]

She's been written too strong and sensible for too many years to have marriage transform her into an emotional punching bag

 

Unfortunately this is true in real life. Even if she gets back at him, Season 6 as the final season has established that this is likely how their marriage will run which is unfortunate. Why and how on earth did people think they were a match???? I really didn't get the whole Carlsie or whatever people were advocating. Mason and Patmore makes more sense compatibility wise.

[RedHawk]

I get the impression that the staff's laundry is done at the main house.  The Bates' seem to take all of their meals at the main house, with the rare meal out, which is probably why Carson wanting to eat at home was such a big deal.  I think Mrs. Hughes having coffee brought to her room on her wedding day was special and not an everyday occurrence.

The Bates' also seem to leave for work in the dark and come home in the dark but it appears that all servants get some time off in the afternoon between lunch and dinner, even Mrs. Patmore and Daisy go into town or visiting in the afternoon.

Oh I understand that for the most part both couples will still have their meals at the great house. But even if they only eat the occasional meal at home, someone has to shop or otherwise procure groceries, clean the cottage, gather the laundry, that sort of thing, and I don't think Mr. Carson will be doing any dusting, until perhaps Mrs. Hughes thrusts the duster in his hand and goes out for a walk.

 

I never cared for Carson and think the love affair would have been much nicer left as an admiring friendship. Mrs. Patmore and Mr. Mason discovering compatibility and love in the final season would have worked better for me. 

[angora]

Since he already knows he's definitely for the chop, I'm sure the Andy situation has Thomas thinking about the Jimmy situation, where he was going to be dismissed without a reference.  Regardless, it'd be terrible to be accused of "corrupting" a "vulnerable" young man, knowing there's nothing you can do to keep people from assuming the worst of you, and generally being slapped with the implication that being who you are is a crime/sin/sackable offense; throwing such huge uncertainty about your future on top of that would be even worse.  Thomas was already freaked out about being let go, and I'm sure now he's terrified that these fresh suspicions will get his reference withdrawn as well, making it that much harder to secure another job.  (If he were in serious trouble due to his scheming, conniving, and all-purpose villainy, which waxes and wanes according to JF's need for it, I wouldn't have a problem saying, "Serves you right."  It's when he's in trouble due to his sexuality that I can't help hoping he finds a way to land on his feet.)

 

Count me as one who thought Mary's callous remarks about Marigold were to get a rise out of Tom and make him reveal the truth.  Still kind of an awful thing to do, but I got why she was being so over-the-top with it.  With only three episodes left, I'm rooting for the "Mary surprises everyone by not using Edith's child against her" outcome.

[UsernameFatigue]

Unfortunately this is true in real life. Even if she gets back at him, Season 6 as the final season has established that this is likely how their marriage will run which is unfortunate. Why and how on earth did people think they were a match???? I really didn't get the whole Carlsie or whatever people were advocating. Mason and Patmore makes more sense compatibility wise.

 

This brings me to another of my favourite exchanges in this episode:

 

Carson: Is everything ready for tonight?

Mrs. Hughes: I think so. You're not expecting a banquet are you?

Carson: I'm expecting a delicious dinner prepared by the fair hands of my beautiful wife.

Mrs. Hughes: There is a threat in there somewhere.

 

Even if Carson is so daft that he doesn't get Mrs. Hughes subtle sarcasm, I don't see her going on much longer before she gives him a piece of her mind. At least I hope not. There is no reason that he cannot treat her in a respectful manner. If all he wanted was a personal cook catering to his every whim he should have married Mrs. Patmore. But then she was smart enough to realize, as she said to Mrs. Hughes. that Carson is too old to be trained as a husband.

Edited February 10, 2016 by UsernameFatigue

[millennium]

As the series winds down, I propose that henceforth at least one character per episode should vomit blood riotously.  Could have been Carson when he sat down for dinner with Mrs. Hughes.   "Lord Grantham is my captain and since he vomited blood I think it only right that I follow his lead.  Oh, and my dear, please bring me a glass of water, the way Mrs. Patmore pours it."

[mightycrone]

If Patmore/Mason ends up like Hughes/Carson, then maybe Daisy's c@ckblocking isn't so bad, after all . . .

[RedHawk]

^Mr. Mason is not a pompous ass, so I'd give that pairing a much stronger chance.

[Mrsjumbo]

Watching the episode again, mr Carson just seems clueless in regards to Mrs Hughes, not purposefully overbearing. I'm sure she will have her say before this ends.

[SusanSunflower]

Yes, people who have been happily married -- as Mr. Mason had been -- tend to do better a second time around ... especially if they've learned from the experience ... Mr. Mason's a lovely man as we've known for years. Mrs. Patmore is neither complicated nor striving.  I think they could be very happy. 

[Constantinople]

As the series winds down, I propose that henceforth at least one character per episode should vomit blood riotously.

But hurling is an Irish sport.

[AZChristian]

I liked in the last episode when Sybby asked about the Sphinx and Robert answered - The castle they film in has many objects of Egypt in the smoking room, I believe.

 

Off topic - sorry:  I was watching an old episode of British Baking Show and in the intro there is a little girl who looks a lot like Marigold.

 

Highclere House (where they film) is owned by Lord Carnarvon.  His great-something grandfather financed several Egyptian expeditions - including the one during which King Tut's tomb was discovered.  The basement of the house has a very nice Egyptian museum.

[statsgirl]

See, it's that 'should have' that gets me, because there is no 'should have' about it and using the phrase smacks of the kind of classist snobbery that we've spent the last century or more trying to break away from - that sense that the lower order should know their place and be grateful for whatever crumbs the aristocracy deign to toss their way. No. Working people are still people, with minds and opinions and feelings all their own. .

For all the problems with the show, one thing that's been consistent in the last seasons is that education is the way out of being trapped by your social class.  Daisy is taking her exams, Andy is trying to learn to read so he can be a pig farmer and not in service all his days, and Mosley is connecting to the school.  Gwen came back as a guest rather than a housemaid, and now Edith is going to help the school she was at.

 

The way up has always been through education and if your family didn't have money, you got it through a patron, as Marigold would have had she stayed with the Drewes.  Now you get it from student loans and bursaries.  There's nothing classist about that,.

[AndySmith]

My opinion, too.  Even if Mary still believes Marigold is only Edith's ward, it's still awful to talk about being "saddled with her," as though she were so much unwanted baggage.

 

I think she was just trying to get a rise out of whoeevr, so that he'd slip and she'd find out if he knew the truth or not. I don't think she was being malicious about it.

Edited February 10, 2016 by AndySmith

[helenamonster]

My opinion, too.  Even if Mary still believes Marigold is only Edith's ward, it's still awful to talk about being "saddled with her," as though she were so much unwanted baggage.

 

I don't think she meant it that way, I think she was phrasing her words in a certain way to get Edith to cop to what Mary is almost certain is the truth. She did it with Tom and Anna as well; instead of asking them outright to confirm her suspicions, she'd trying to trap them into it.

 

From an unknowing outsider's perspective, Mary's and Edith's situations are very different. Mary is a widow with a biological son; some men might not want to marry her because they don't want to raise another's man's son but others would be sympathetic to the situation and go along with it. To those who don't know better, Edith, a woman who has never been married, willingly adopted an orphan that she has no blood relation to. Many men would find that odd and wouldn't feel the same responsibility of taking that on as they would with a biological child. To them, it would be "baggage." Edith is lucky that Bertie might be different (which Mary didn't know because she hadn't met him yet) but I think in that scene Mary was trying to trip her up and get her to say something like, "She's my daughter, she's not baggage."

[WatchrTina]

Well, I just finished my re-watch of Season 3 -- ending with cricket match episode.  I won't be watching that Christmas special -- no siree.  That cricket match episode ends with Mary & Matthew kissing -- ready to start making a baby now that she's had her small operation; with Mr. Bates out of prison; with the triumvirate of Lord Grantham, Matthew, and Tom (the new agent) ready to take Downton into the next era.  The very last thing that happens is Tom (who can't really play cricket and has been bullied into it) catching the ball and being congratulated by Lord Grantham and Matthew.  Ah, happy times.  Yeah I won't be watching that damned Christmas special that comes next -- the one where George is born and . . . you know.

 

But it was really interesting watching those episodes in light of Season 6.  I really REALLY did not like Branson the chauffeur and I wasn't very fond of Branson, I mean Tom the newlywed, but I loved watching the Crawley's affection for Tom grow during season 3.  The relationship between Mary and Tom really was born at the moment of Sybil's death.  Mary sticks up for Tom's plan to christen Sibby as a Catholic and she eventually sides with Matthew and Tom's plan for the estate after originally being more concerned with her father's feelings.  I definitely do not "ship" Tom and Mary but I really enjoy the brother-and-sister relationship they've grown into in Season 6 and I'm genuinely surprised to see how far back it goes.

Edited February 10, 2016 by WatchrTina

[kat165]

MacBeth, I didn't mean to imply that I have anything
against Allen Leach. I like him a lot & also missed him
in the first ep. I wish he was given more to do, more of
a role/storyline than Mary's buddy. I was just commenting
on how thankless the role of Tom is as it's being written
& how much fun/challenging can't it be to play.

[Llywela]

For all the problems with the show, one thing that's been consistent in the last seasons is that education is the way out of being trapped by your social class.  Daisy is taking her exams, Andy is trying to learn to read so he can be a pig farmer and not in service all his days, and Mosley is connecting to the school.  Gwen came back as a guest rather than a housemaid, and now Edith is going to help the school she was at.

 

The way up has always been through education and if your family didn't have money, you got it through a patron, as Marigold would have had she stayed with the Drewes.  Now you get it from student loans and bursaries.  There's nothing classist about that,.

Yes, education is very important. But not so important that you accept any patronage under any circumstances. When those red flags go up, even poor working people are entitled to act on them and attempt to draw boundaries around their families - and the Drewes aren't so poor as all that. They are respectable working folk. The Drewe children attending the local school would get the same education Daisy has belatedly acquired for herself, sit the same exams - even in the 1920s it was possible for a farmer's child to get an education and better him/herself without selling them to the local gentry.

 

My point is, working folk aren't bound to be grateful for any offer of patronage under any circumstances - if the offer comes with untenable conditions attached, they have the right to protect their family by saying no.

 

It isn't a binary opposition. We don't have to villainise one party to show support for another - we can actually understand and sympathise with both!

Edited February 10, 2016 by Llywela

[Andorra]

I think the concern is that she could be setting herself up to be typecast.  She played a shrew in the Cinderella movie and she has devolved into a hideous shrew on DA, it could be that the parts she gets offered in the future consist largely of young shrews.  I thought Dan Stevens quit because he didn't want to be typecast as the "blonde golden boy" and I suspect that the actress who played O'Brien quit because she didn't want to be forever known as the villain.  

 

She always plays roles like that actually. At least in those shows I have seen her in. "Downton", "Cinderella", "Job lot", "Galavant". But actually I agree with Julian Fellowes somewhat: Being typecast is not always bad. If someone searches for an actress to play the annoying or nasty, little, pretty thing, they probably think of Sophie McSheera very early on. She's talented, but she is not "romantic lead type". She has a comical talented and can actually sing quite well (as you can see in "Galavant") and so she can do many variations of those kind of roles. And she looks extremely young. I think she will do well. 

[Roseanna]

Edith and Mr. Drew should have stuck to her original story of Marigold being Edith's friend's child. That would have at least created a reason for Edith to take a special interest in the girl.

 

It was Mr Drewe who decided not to tell her wife Edith's story that Marigold was a child of her late friend, but tell that Marigold was a child of his late friend. We were never told why. Didn't he trust his wife?

 

After Mrs Drewe began to show that she didn't like Edith's visits, Mr Drewe told Edith that he knew that she was Marigold's mother, they could have decided to tell also Mrs Drewe the truth, but neither suggested it. Again: didn't Mr Drewe trust his wife?

 

The dynamics of the marriage was odd also in the way that Mrs Drewe didn't seem to care a bit of Mr Drewe's opinions. She decided alone that Edith can't visit any more, although Mr Drewe was dependent on Crawleys. To prevent those visits she even threatened that they should leave the farm Mr Drewe's family had tillled since Waterloo and move out.  

[Llywela]

It was Mr Drewe who decided not to tell her wife Edith's story that Marigold was a child of her late friend, but tell that Marigold was a child of his late friend. We were never told why. Didn't he trust his wife?

Mr Drewe was trying to protect Edith's reputation by distancing her from the child - not knowing that she was going to be unable to maintain any distance at all. After that, it was just a snowball effect. Like I said above: a chemical cocktail of personalities and circumstances spiralling out of control. All parties involved tried to do what they thought was best, based on the information available to them. And they all made mistakes, because they are fallible human beings. That's what made it such an interesting and complex story. It wasn't about right and wrong, or about goodies versus baddies. It was a story about flawed human beings acting according to their own needs, beliefs and emotions, and for me, the interest in such a story lies in trying to understand the perspective and motivations of the characters involved, rather than screaming abuse at them for not behaving as I think they should (or for being opposed to a character I favour).