S01.E03: Blood Ties

[Serena]

Three episodes in and the only person of colour has been drugged, kidnapped and threatened into committing a crime. Nice going show.

Wentworth Miller is a POC, jsyk.

[darkestboy]

Rip pretty much messed up royally there, didn't he? His own recklessness put his family in danger with Vandal Savage and it was hard to care about Rip killing Savage seeing as only Kendra can do it with permanent results, right?

 

Shallow note though, Rip and Sara both looked hot during their undercover stints this week and I liked that the effects of Sara being raised from the dead by the Lazarus Pit are being addressed as well.

 

Mixing and splitting up the teams each week really works in this show's favour and so far is keeping the dynamics pretty fresh as well.

 

I also liked Jackson hanging out with Cold and Heatwave, even if Cold's attempts of changing his own history predictably backfired.

 

Some good stuff with Ray and Stein working together to save Kendra as well. 8/10

[tarotx]

Sara had conversations about herself and her issues. Jax decided for himself to be the get away driver. Sure he was threatened at first but he was not having any of it until it seemed fun for him. Kendra didn't have a lot going for her but at least she was able to tap into her abilities to sense what was happening around Carter's body. I do wish we had another female. Please give me Shado's Ghost or Katana!  I also want Nyssa and Sin. Damn't I need that Sara show someone mentioned!!!

[Racj82]

I wasn't sure if Sara knew Thea killed her.

I think you're right about the intention behind the Jax storyline. But it's episode 3 and he was drugged and kidnapped in one and push into helping with a crime in this one. It's like nobody looked at it and thought 'oh that doesn't look good'. I would imagine that's the same person who had a whole episode where Sara doesn't speak to another woman.

The writers may actually just be writing characters and not writing based on color or gender. In this episode, Stein and Ray had their own mission with a more scientific spin. Jax was doing something he's good at which is mechanic work. Cold used him because no one else would have even come close to taking him since they are older and more assured in themselves. Even within that, Jax stood up for himself. This was a way to bond Cold and Jax. Not a kidnapping plot. I genuinelly don't care how many women Sara talks to. She's a character. All I need is for her to interact with people. Which she did. We got more one on one peer bonding. That's what is more important to the show for me. I don't care about who she is talking with who so long as I see this team continue to form.

I just always feel the need to push back on these things. I feel like any writer not just being allowed to write characters and being viewed a certain type of way because they don't write people of a certain color or gender in a way that appeases more people is doing a disservice to the writers and the characters. I see zero offensive elements here. Sara is a team member. I just need to see her work with the team. I have no vested interest in how many women are on said team or how often they talk to each other. I just want to see characters written well. Sara has been and hopefully Kendra gets more time to grow.

With Jax, its way more about his age than his skin color. He's being pressured and not respected enough in some places just because people think they can walk over the young guy. But he's also the voice of reason, often very mature and he often pushing back against people trying to walk over him. He was not in a great position to just not do what Cold wanted but you could see respect grow from Cold after Jax stuck to his convictions. Cold used other logic to get Jax on board. He didn't kidnap him. Of course, the young guy wants to fly the cool ship.

[Primetimer]

Atom races to save Kendra from the tiny shards headed for her heart.

Read the story

[KirkB]

I admit my anatomy and medical knowledge isn't that extensive, but how long after death does blood begin to coagulate? is it immediately? Because according to Savage it's only been a day since they last met and he killed Carter, and that's not even taking into account the possibility Savage has some way to preserve or maintain the body since he's using it as part of a mystic ritual.

 

Sara was....damn, Caity Lotz is amazing. I agree with everyone who's said she's the one who should have had a show.

 

I kind of felt for Cold. He was trying to help himself and his sister, and his mother presumably, and not only didn't it work he might have actually made things worse. His dad going to prison after some guy showed up in his house talking about his son and daughter, and dad acting like he didn't know he had a daughter. Maybe he thinks this guy was a 'friend' of his wife who knew something he didn't?

 

But the biggest WTF moment of the episode for me, as for a lot of you it seems, is they had won. They had Savage down. Yes, we all know for a fact he was going to come back and only Kendra would be able to stop him permanently. But they have their enemy beaten. How do they not tie him up and drag him back to the Waverider? They can keep him chained up until Kendra recovers, meanwhile giving everyone on the ship a chance to stab the bad guy to make themselves feel better or pass the time. They had effectively achieved the goal of the show, or were a step away from it anyway, but instead they walked away leaving Savage free and with even more knowledge of them and future events than he already had.

[henripootel]

I think Stein had only Brilliant people in his classes.

And yet Savage remembers Rory from 4000 years ago?  Even knowing that he 'alone is gifted with immortality'?  I know they're different characters and whatnot but they seem to be quoting every page from the Lazy Writer's Handbook.

 

So Rory fought here-and-now (or close enough) Savage to a standstill, but couldn't handle 4000-years-ago Savage (who was pretty new then) plus a few pharaonic guards?  Pin Rory's arms and all he can do is listen to Savage's savage ... monologging skills?

 

I'm not an Arrow viewer but I love Flash, so I know what good writing looks like in this universe.  I know I'm supposed to get a boner when Rory says he has guys who'll 'go through hell for him', but why?  I like most of these actors and the characters are okay, but in what way has the show earned this?  These guys just met, they have vague and conflicting orders about what they're supposed to do and how to accomplish it, but suddenly they're all Super-Friends?  Are they all bound together by the awesome power of cliché?

 

Not saying this show won't find its footing (and please get there soon) but I'm pretty underwhelmed thus far.  I guess my biggest problem is that basically nothing is at stake here at all. They keep pretending that the leads are in mortal peril but we know they're not, even the one who 'died' this episode is so firmly 'on the Wheel' that we know he'll just pop back up shortly.  The Big Bad has vaguely-defined super powers but can be subdued easily once you've slaughtered his super-duper (and super-disposable) henchmen.  The notion that he's almost impossible to kill is hard to take seriously when the heroes are literally standing around in the solution.  Time machine / space ship - drop Savage off on Mercury, let him cook / freeze there.

 

And is there any reason why they're not going back to 1999 BC and finishing off comparatively-inexperienced Savage back then?  If anyone's having trouble with the time jumps, park them in 1975 and take your killers.  Bam, done.  I know they can't do this cuz the show'll be over, but if they're gonna open these obvious possibilities up I'm gonna need some reason why they don't do them.

 

Also, Rory, when it's time to stab, stab, don't monologue.  I know it's a comic book trope but again, lazy writing.

Edited February 5, 2016 by henripootel

[blixie]

This show is big hot bowl of stupid, and Randal Savage is annoying as fuck, but I enjoy it thoroughly anyway. It's obviously all about the characters, at least now that Hawkdude is dead. Sarah, Snart, Stein, Mick, and Ray are all great. I actually don't mind the actress for Hawkgirl, she's charming if not super talented, but everything about that character is ridiculous and terrible and it's a shame the entire first season is built around that awful Egyptian backstory. Jax is super green, but again I think he's charming enough and will grow into the part. I like the mix of earnest good eggs (Ray, Jax, Kendra), morally complicated good guys (Rip, Sara), and morally equivocating bad guys (Snart, Mick). OH and snarky dad: Stein.

[tarotx]

The Flash is a science show so yeah :| They have an even higher mountain and don't even get close. Imo.

 

Rip is a legend to the "Savages". He's a story Vandal told to his followers and created a "Devil". Not the same as remembering a blue gumball in a mass of blue gumballs. 

 

Rip hesitated when he first faced Vandal and who knows what training Rip has had since his first meeting with Vandal. Rip got emotional when facing Vandal. He went ahead and killed him instead of thinking about getting him aboard the ship for Kendra to kill. These types of bad guys are more like Cartoon Villains who keep reappearing. This aspect isn't going to go away. You will either have to roll you eyes or give the show up. I hope you stay and just enjoy the ride and the development of the characters :)

 

And Rip was feeling down because he had no one and then the team shows up and was relieved and a bit sentimental. Good guys may not have followers but they can have team members ;)

Edited February 5, 2016 by tarotx

[benteen]

Yeah it was Arrow that made the mistake. Or at least Oliver (Malcolm wouldn't know since he wasn't there). Doesn't Oliver remember yelling Sara to get her to stop?

 

This was lazy writing on the part of the Arrow writers to forget something that occurred only a few episodes but they are prone to bouts of it.

[HighwayFlower]

There is a ton of plot holes. I concede that. But I love the team enough to ignore the details and focus on the interactions and Sara kicking ass.

[FurryFury]

Yeah, I think I'm on Rip/Sara train, if it exists. Really enjoyed their interactions, and there was definite ship tease (but not too overt!) with the dance.

 

And really, enjoyed Sara (as usual!) and her badassness, and also, surprisingly, Cold (the beginning didn't seem very promising).

 

Looking forward to the new episodes.

 

As for Sara's supposed cure of bloodlust on Arrow, I choose to believe that Malcolm (wasn't it him who said it) just didn't know it. Yeah. 

[DeathQuaker]

I am really liking this show. The fight-scenes are awesome and in this particular episode, I loved Sara showing off her assassin knowledge, Hunter got better development, and while some of the dialogue was cheesy, I liked Ray and Stein together, and exploring some the more interesting applications of the Atom suit.

Especially with Carter gone--I realize that it probably won't be forever, given they can travel through time and pick him up in another life--but while I try not to be the kind of viewer who just hates on a character (not worth the energy to feel vitriol to someone who doesn't exist), I really felt he had little contribution to the team. Other team members have flight and ass kicking skills, Kendra also has past-life memories, and while he tried hard at being a self-absorbed and arrogant jerk, Stein and Snart each have their own takes on that that are far more entertaining to watch. The team feels tighter and more interesting without him... plus it brings the male:female ratio down to a better dynamic.

They need less discussion of wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff (this episode was already somewhat of an improvement) and more kicking ass in different time periods, and this show will be excellent.

 

PS: Dear show, please bring in Scandal Savage. She's totally Sara's type.

Edited February 5, 2016 by DeathQuaker

[festivus]

I liked the first two episodes but this one bored me except for Sara. That girl is just gold with anyone. Just the third episode and I can tell already that this show is going to piss me off as much as Arrow and The Flash do. Why would you not take Vandal's body and let Kendra finish him off later? I've seen some explanations for why but none of them make any sense to me. I'm really only watching this show because I like most of the characters so I'm hoping they do away with Vandal by the end of this season and just have them traveling through time and fighting crime next season. 

[henripootel]

Not looking to pick a fight, tarotx, but much of what you listed there is what I think of as 'lazy writing'.  I understand what they were going for each time but mostly because I've seen these tropes so many times.  I know we know that Rory nearly killed Savage back in the day but it has been 4000 years.  Rory's not like the Hawk guys who keep popping up, he's one guy one time from ancient-fucking-Egypt.  I could almost accept Savage recognizing Rory (almost) but his henchman?  If Savage has had only one opponent in 4000 years who gave him a serious fight, requiring a 4000-year-old APB, why isn't Savage in control of the whole world?  

 

For that matter, why did it take so long for Savage to do this very thing?  He's organized, evil, and has semi-immortal evil henchmen - why didn't he take over during the Bronze Age?  He had focus and assets the Caesars and Temujin could only dream about, and they did okay.  Millennia of experience and he's still just an arms dealer (albeit a very nasty one)?

 

I think the answer is this: the writers just want to have it both ways.  Savage is both the worst warlord of all time and ... not the worst, just evil.  Rory holds all the cards (with a time machine, knowledge of the future, and equipment from the future) but he's offset by a guy who really, really knows how to use knives and punch people. And why does Rory need this team again?  Future weapons, fairly complete knowledge of the past leaves him in need of guys with outdated weapons and (by his lights) an archaic understanding of science?

 

None of these problems are insurmountable if the writers would just bother to try harder.  I mean look at the Flash.  Barry should be, in theory, invincible, yet they keep coming up with plausible ways that he isn't.  They explore the (somewhat) logical limits of metahuman abilities, and allow their characters to intelligently consider the implications of their world while being pretty interesting despite their somewhat formulaic jobs in the narrative.  That's good writing, and the folks writing Legends should take note.

The fight-scenes are awesome

The choreography is pretty good, but they're already getting a bit of a generic quality, with endless thugs (who we're reminded are super-good at thuggery) being mowed down like winter wheat, waiting their turn to get ass-kicked.  I mean I'm all for a good ass-kicking, but after a while I get the impression that nothing is at stake (because Sara is so damn good) and they might as well be running the same clip over and over. We'll leave out the part where super-fighters I thought could only be defeated by a super fighter like Sara, can also be challenged by Rory or Ray, who don't seem to have had the training.  Such inconsistency means, to me, writers not paying attention so I'm less inclined to do so myself. 

Edited February 5, 2016 by henripootel

[KirkB]

I think, for me, the plot holes and issues could fill pages and pages and even ruin my enjoyment of the show if it wasn't for the fact I like most of the actors and/or characters so much. Arthur Darvill is fun to watch even when he seems a little lost with the technobabble. Sara, Cold and Heat on a road trip kicking ass would be enough of a show for me so they're the biggest draw. Stein's casual amorality is amusing. Ray, well, I did say most of the characters. He has a place, I guess. I don't even mind Kendra, though I could go either way with her. Savage is the real weak point as far as I'm concerned, which is an issue since he is supposed to be the villain to end all villains, but I'm happy enough with most everything else to let it go, with a little occasional complaining.

Edited February 5, 2016 by KirkB

[FurryFury]

BTW, it's interesting that one of the things I've remembered from the episode is that Snart's childhood home had 2 floors, despite him supposedly coming from a pretty unsavory background. I mean, I grew up in a 1-room (not 1-bedroom, 1-room) apartment, and here is a guy who had a really bad childhood but a whole house. Sigh. I mean, I know I'm not from the US, but it's kinda hard to see that criminals had it better than your PhD parents.

Edited February 5, 2016 by FurryFury

[tarotx]

Rory is actually Heatwave's real last name so yeah that might be a bit confusing for some.

 

And I'll give you the lazy writing. I just think that these show aren't about reality so if there are ways to see what the show is going with than "I" can fan wash easy. The Flash is worst in this aspect to me because it's a science show. It's why a lot of people have Arrow issues because it's supposed to be the most grounded though it always had interesting drugs and herbs so magic seem believable to me in that world. These are just comic/cartoonish shows so I just think trying to place them into reality is never going to work. 

 

I can fan wave the Rip's remembrance the easiest. Creating folk lore gets a story remembered. 

 

And Oliver gets stupid and Barry runs fast nearly everytime or Cisco Mary Sue's  something up. All these shows have some questionable and the same sh-t different day. It's rather or not you can get into the world or not. 

 

I could go on about Savage's reasons for taking it slow. He's wrongly killed a lot and it takes a while for him to get to full strength? Maybe it's why he's only visible sporadically throughout history. His followers keep the legend alive along enough for Savage to grow in power each time. It's one theory.  Lazy writing maybe but being realistic about Vandal is not an important thing for this show. He's a cartoon villain just here to give our characters reason to be a team so they have interesting dynamics and are here to shape each other. Imo.

Edited February 5, 2016 by tarotx

[neonzebra]

Eww. I just realized where the most logical place Atom would enter/exit Kendra's bloodstream. 

[tessaray]

Do we know just exactly when time travel is invented?  And how long before the Time Masters took over?

[henripootel]

Maybe it's why he's only visible sporadically throughout history.

Yeah, about that.  Seems to me this yet another bit of silliness about Savage.  I mean he has to exist at all points in time, so why wait for him to become 'visible' in history?  Presumably this happens when Savage is at his strongest, with lots of schemes going on and henchmen all topped up again.  Why wait?  Why not find Savage when he's in a lull, say in 1976 when somebody got all his money and killed his guys.  If he's working at a Pizza Hut in Omaha rebuilding his fortune, hit him then.  Doesn't the timeship have a super-computer?  Are the computers for this era any match for it?  Why not search W-2s for a 'V. Savage' and go pick him up?

The Flash is worst in this aspect to me because it's a science show.

Not sure what you mean by that.  They offer science babble as explanations but I'm okay with it, mostly because they're at least acknowledging that paying attention is somewhat rewarded.  Is there any way Barry's crazy energy budget can be reconciled without him constantly chugging rocket fuel?  Well thank god Cisco fixed this with a hoose-what, so we never have to worry about that again. 

This is a far cry from the guys who live and travel in a time machine wondering how to get the drop on a guy who seems preoccupied with fancy dress and glowering.

 

And nto for nothing, but I'm surprised at how charmless this show is generally.  I've got a solid warm feeling for most of these actors and I can't say I even like these characters much, nor care much if they're in peril.  I'm not a hard-hearted guy - Barry and his stepdad's relationship has gotten dust in my eyes more than once.  Give me a good reason to like these guys and I probably will, but so far, nothing.  

 

I will say that Wentworth Miller got close there in this episode - he put a lot of weight into that talk with his younger self.  Then I listened to the turgid lines he was given and my good feeling largely evaporated.  

[tarotx]

Do we know just exactly when time travel is invented?  And how long before the Time Masters took over?

Maybe we will learn this up coming week? I think Rip Hunter was credited as the first one to make the little time sphere that Thawne was going to travel in. Though now that was created in 2015 and Flash Finale so who knows.

[blackwing]

I thought this episode was fairly uneven.  By far the best part about this show is Sara Lance.  Sara Lance fighting baddies in an evening gown is all kinds of awesome.

 

The actress who plays Kendra is truly awful, so I was glad that she was unconscious for most of the episode.  I can't say I particularly cared for the Ray/Professor Fantastic Voyage to save her.  The Professor is an ass.  I have residual Ray Palmer hate, and it doesn't help that I find Brandon Routh very wooden as well.  I've been wondering, does he purposely make his hair look so bad all the time?  Wouldn't a TV show have a hair department that could help make some improvement?

 

The less references to the awful Tom Cruise stinker "Eyes Wide Shut", the better.  

 

I kept waiting for those followers in the Room of Red Light to start chanting "Mola Ram, Mola Ram".

[TVHappy9463]

The episode had it's moments, Caity is great. Wentworth is too over the top, and since he delivers all his one liners the same it's already boring. The show is trying to hard to be "cute", the Titanic reference was lame.  Too many characters, not enough cohesion.  and was Ray Palmer's suit not all gooey after flying around in Kendra's body.  

[rue721]

Getting fair tired of the whole 'can't upset the timelines' nonsense for a plot that's founded on the most fundamental disruption of the timelines possible

 

[...]

Do all the characters have one storyboarded moment in their past which shapes their entire motivations?  And can only be overcome with a high-school-style pep talk?

 

What's ironic about this problem in the writing w/r/t Savage is that, in this same episode, the show provided a pretty good explanation for how the characters can be worried about disrupting timelines even WHILE purposefully disrupting timelines. That was the main thrust of Snart's storyline. He was trying to change things for his father, while making sure not to change things so much/in a way that would keep him from having his sister.

 

I thought that Snart's storyline also did a good job of making it seem like his backstory was a whole story/life and not just one ~defining moment~ that made him the way he is or something.

 

The thing of Ray being obsessed with his fiancee's death is a little too one-note, though, imo. The only thing I know about her or their relationship is that she's dead, so it's not like that "backstory" gives us much insight into him, either.

 

That said, I really enjoyed Stein and Ray's storyline this episode, which was kind of surprising. I liked that Stein tried to manipulate him, and that Ray wasn't very affected by it. Stein's methods may work on college kids, but he's not really that slick with adults, I guess :P. Imo, BR also did a good job of selling that Ray really NEEDED to save Kendra. I really like Ray as a smart and confident/brave but naive good guy (rather than as the sometimes-villain and sometimes-suave mess/usurper that he was on Arrow!).

 

Sara and Rip were gorgeous to watch, though that fight choreography kind of ruined their storyline for me. Each bad guy stood there and waited his/her turn for Sara to take them out. My favorite line of the night was Sara's though -- when she recognized the callouses on the banker's hand because she has the same callouses.

 

BTW, it's interesting that one of the things I've remembered from the episode is that Snart's childhood home had 2 floors, despite him supposedly coming from a pretty unsavory background.

 

IKR? I guess he was going back in time to the ~halcyon days~ before his dad went to prison, so they weren't going to make his childhood at that point in time look too grim, but that house was ridiculous. Besides the sheer size of the house, it was LOADED with stuff, including a bunch of toys. What does his mother do for a living? Because even if they were able to afford that house when his father was actively doing heists, I don't get how his mom could still have afforded it all by herself while he was locked up.

 

It would be kind of hilarious if his mom is a lawyer.

[Sakura12]

I'm liking this show. Is it the best ever, no. However I like the character interactions. The plot can be stupid as long the characters are interesting when they interact together. I've loved all the pair ups they've done so far. 

 

Plus Sara being an awesome badass is my biggest draw to this show and she hasn't disappointed me. I could just watch Sara take different characters on adventures every week and be happy. 

 

One thing that may help is if we don't see Vandal every week and just know the team is trying to do something to stop his rise to power. 

 

I find the Flash to be the worst out of the three shows because it's so repetitive and very very male focused. I guess you can consider that good writing since they never change their writing. 

Edited February 5, 2016 by Sakura12

[HighwayFlower]

Any time travel show is going to have plot holes. While the storyline is far from perfect, I think they a good enough start and enough potential to really make the show something special. I hope they listen to response and feedback and make the necessary changes going forward

[wayne67]

I'm liking this show. Is it the best ever, no. However I like the character interactions. The plot can be stupid as long the characters are interesting when they interact together. I've loved all the pair ups they've done so far. 

 

Plus Sara being an awesome badass is my biggest draw to this show and she hasn't disappointed me. I could just watch Sara take different characters on adventures every week and be happy. 

 

One thing that may help is if we don't see Vandal every week and just know the team is trying to do something to stop his rise to power. 

 

I'd have to disagree. Nitpicking is pointing out that someone changed clothes in between scenes which is fairly irrelevant. Pointing out giant gaping plot holes involved in their major plot arc is a way for writers to improve their craft.

 

You pointed out a perfectly feasible way to correct one of the major problems of this episode. A bunch of cops/new thugs could have shown up while Rip stood over Vandal Savage and they needed to bail. They didn't even need to show it. They could have had a couple lines of dialogue saying they had to run.

 

Instead they chose the lazy option of having the character who ditched his job and is on a vengeance quest to kill this guy, not even try. 

 

I want characters to try. They don't have to succeed. They just have to do stuff that makes some sort of narrative sense. The whole it would fail is a lousy reason not to try. As evidenced by the Atom being all afraid to fail. Which was stupid because even if she died they could just pick up another couple of Hawk's. 

[thuganomics85]

Between Snart making a Star Wars reference in the pilot and Mick's Eyes Wide Shut comment in this episode, I now think that Snart and Mick must spend all their time watching DVDs in their lair, when they weren't running around, committing crimes.  They seem to have a diverse knowledge about movies and whatnot!

 

Kind of a filler episode since most of it was just getting Carter's body back, but I enjoyed the Rip/Sara pairing, and seeing how damage both of them are.  Sara/Caity Lotz continues to be the ultimate badass, but I'm glad they are bringing back up her less then perfect resurrection and how she is still feeling the effects.  While it goes against what Malcolm claimed on Arrow, her still having some of the Blood Lust in her does explain why she left Star City like she did and why she didn't automatically rush back and try to find a way to get to Nyssa.  As for Rip, it turns out he might have been the on responsible for putting his wife and son in Vandal's sights, so that's a pretty big fuck-up on his part.  Kind of be careful with this time-traveling stuff, dude!

 

Ray and Martin were fun together, and it was good to be reminded that Ray lost his fiancee, since I did kind of forget about all that stuff.  But I kind of like how both are brilliant and arrogant in their own ways.  When Ray is cocky or smug, it is just different then the way Martin is.  But I can see them being brilliant together once they move past their issues and ego.

 

Knew Snart's plan wasn't going to work, but I guess it was nice seeing a different side to him.  Jax though was wasted tonight by basically being forced to chaperone them.  Mick didn't do much either but at least he has all of his one-liners.

 

I do wonder why they couldn't just kidnap Vandal and do something with him until they figure this out.  The ship doesn't have any holding cells?  Can't they go back to Central City and borrow a cell from  S.T.A.R. Labs?  It was just weird that Rip stabs him, but then leaves him knowing that he'll resurrect again soon.

 

Still enjoying the ride, mainly because the cast and characters make-up for whenever the writing gets silly.  Plus, Sara alone has providing better fight scenes then probably the last two seasons of Arrow.

[MissLucas]

Wow, I had no idea there were such dramatic mountain ranges outside Leipzig (because there aren't). Tip for the location scouts - next time you want to pass off BC as Germany pick München.

[henripootel]

Wow, I had no idea there were such dramatic mountain ranges outside Leipzig (because there aren't).

And correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Leipzig behind the iron curtain in '75?  I saw east Berlin before the wall came down, it sure wasn't that fancy.  

[MissLucas]

Yeah, it sure was (damn there goes my degree in history). They wouldn't have had such fancy banks or goons hired from South-Africa.

[strikera0]

I am enjoying this show for the various character interactions, but I have got to say, I'm not sure that the premise will be sustainable long term. The characters will either still be chasing after Vandal Savage 3 seasons from now or another supervillian will conveniently rise whenever the previous target has been terminated, and I think that will probably become repetitive after a while. I also find myself in agreement with various posters that the writing for this show appears to be sloppy and rife with plotholes. For example, towards the end of the episode, Dr. Stein commented that the team has to find a way to wrestle the dagger away from Vandal Savage and all I could think about was that Rip Hunter had just slit the guy's throat and the dagger was right there for the taking...

 

As far as the characters go, Sara was amazing as always. I enjoyed her scenes with Rip Hunter just as much as her scenes with Cold, Heatwave and Dr. Stein in previous episodes. I also think that Caity's acting has become much better since the last time I saw her. As much as I enjoyed Sara on Arrow, I thought her acting could be very cringey at times on the show.

 

This might have been Ray's best episode in the Flarrow universe, yet. I didn't mind him on Arrow, but I always struggled to connect with him because the writers made him waaay too clumsy for my taste. I find I like the character much better when he isn't acting like a total doofus.

 

As someone who doesn't watch the Flash outside of the occasional episode, I think I enjoy Rip Hunter the most from the new characters. I have liked Cold and Heatwave in spurts (e.g. their scenes with Sara or various action sequences), but overall, WM and DP are chewing the scenery so much that it becomes a distraction and their characters just don't feel like real people to me. I don't mind Kendra, Jay or Dr. Stein, but I can't say that I am deeply invested in them either. Hopefully, that's going to change in future episodes.

Edited February 6, 2016 by strikera0

[johntfs]

Which The Flash unfortunately forgot when casting his family.

 

I don't think we've ever seen his mother, have we?

[Sakura12]

They've already said that Vandal is one season villain and if they get another season it might be a different cast as well.

[GreatAtBoats]

Pretty sure the dagger used in this episode is just some random, ordinary dagger and not the one that Kendra can use to permanently kill Vandal.

[TV Anonymous]

And yet Savage remembers Rory from 4000 years ago?  Even knowing that he 'alone is gifted with immortality'?  I know they're different characters and whatnot but they seem to be quoting every page from the Lazy Writer's Handbook.

 

So Rory fought here-and-now (or close enough) Savage to a standstill, but couldn't handle 4000-years-ago Savage (who was pretty new then) plus a few pharaonic guards?  Pin Rory's arms and all he can do is listen to Savage's savage ... monologging skills?

 

(...)

 

Also, Rory, when it's time to stab, stab, don't monologue.  I know it's a comic book trope but again, lazy writing.

 

Rory did not go to Egypt. Hunter did. In fact, all these things you said Mick Rory did, it was Rip Hunter. Is there anything missing here?

[blixie]

I think the person is referring to the actors previous role as Rory on Dr Who?

[henripootel]

Rory did not go to Egypt. Hunter did. In fact, all these things you said Mick Rory did, it was Rip Hunter. Is there anything missing here?

My bad - the guy who plays Rip Hunter also played a character on Dr. Who named Rory.  I intentionally called Rip 'Rory' to bring attention to this, mostly because Rip is (IMO) a surprisingly bald-faced ripoff of Dr. Who.  I didn't know Heat Wave's name was also Rory.  Sorry for the confusion.

[Starfish35]

Lol. Yeah I still think of him as Rory myself. Having a different Rory on the show is just adding to the confusion.

[Cthulhudrew]

Any time travel show is going to have plot holes.

 12 Monkeys (the tv show) seems to be doing a pretty bang-up job about it all so far. Probably the best time-travel show I've seen, actually.

[Lokiberry]

Hey, I'm a day late and a dollar short, but I actually thought this was the best episode yet. All the pairings were fantastic (and I think the fact that all the characters mix and match so well may end up being the show's biggest strength). With Kendra in a coma, and Hawkdouche in the ground, I enjoyed all the stories; particularly Sara/Rip and Len's homecoming.

 

You know, watching Sara be the biggest badass in the Flarrowverse, having chemistry with everyone she comes in contact with, and being shipped with the entire crew of the Waverider, my headcannon now is that the Flarrowverse's version of the Black Canary is in fact, the White Canary. Nothing else make sense.

[Cthulhudrew]

Sara is definitely the heart of the show. It took me a while to warm up to her on Arrow, but she has really grown on me both as a character and an actress, and I think she is really a diamond in the rough on Legends. I have long enjoyed Wentworth Miller and Dominic Purcell (they were the main things keeping me in Prison Break, long after that show had outworn its premise), and together with Caity Lotz, the three of them really have made Legends so far. Heck, if it were up to me, I'd say get rid of the rest of the cast and just have some kind of Rogues series with these three.

 

(Though I will say, I still enjoy Superman Returns, and Brandon Routh's performance there, and in his turn on Chuck. When they don't have his character stumble over some awkward moments like they do, he is also a really bright spot.)

[BkWurm1]

I too thought this was the best episode yet. The plot is in the end, just plot. I don't watch for plot. I watch for the characters and they made me like and care about everyone in this episode. And the plot holes? Well the one with Not taking Vandal seemed to me they couldn't with the place surrounded by his followers. They took care of the first wave but then needed to bug out.

Plus the very notion of bringing this seemingly unstoppable villain on your TIME MACHINE seems like the kind of rule the Time Masters would drum into any recruits head never to break. The risk is too big. VS had access to a tiny part of Ray's suit and it nearly made him unstoppable. (You know it wouldn't have just been Central City that was affected. )

And yes, Carter's blood wouldn't naturally still run freely like that a day later but that only means they did something to it so it would. It's a freakin' party to drink his blood and give the choosen an extra hundred years of life. It's not much of a leap that they injected him with a blood thinner or some othe magic herb to make it work.

I loved the episode. I loved Cold trying to make his childhood better rather than just randomly stealing the emerald. I loved his speech to little Leo. I loved the silliness that all Jax had to do was follow the manual to fly the runabout but since Rip actually thought Jax could fix it in the first place, I'm willing to buy into both. I loved that he took it on a joy ride will ignore he still was technically the getaway driver.

I loved that Stein faked remembering Ray and that Ray figured it out. I love that this show retroactively has convinced me Ray was acting like such a pompous prick on Arrow partly because he didn't know how to grieve for Anna (and we all said he was rebounding with Felicity with misplaced feelings for Anna). He's so much more understandable now.

I was giddy with the Sara and Rip interaction. It's too early to ship anyone IMO but that they let Sara be clever in all ways assassin-y AND emotionally vulnerable while also reading correctly Rip's emotional state and hopelessness was just the cherry on the cherry. That's twice now that it's the bereft assassin who thinks she's the hopeless monster that is the most clear sighted and hopefull. This is exactly who I knew Sara as.

I loved her fight scenes (I've never rewound a fight scene before during an episode, but I watched her knife fight at the bank three times) and yet it's the many seemingly conflicting layers that all sit with ease on her character that make me adore Sara. She connected with Rip in a way no one has yet, somehow as an equal. And it was believable. I want to see her sprinkle some of that magic dust on Kendra. I actually think it's possible. CL is a very emotionally honest actress and that is what comes through and connects. She makes the pain Sara endures believable. She made stabbing the floor like a maniac a victory. Seriously, I got a little emotional that she was able to control it. Not because dude didn't need killing, but because that's not who Sara wants to be.

And she's had so little control over her life and decisions for the last going on 9 years it was pretty great to see Sara getting back some of her control and finding something meaningful she can bring her abilities to.

And she looked so freaking good doing it.

Technical question- would they have had to use a special film or camera for her slow-mo sequence or could they have just been sitting in the editing room geeking out over how incredible Sara looked and couldn't resist including the shot? It's not a technique I've seem used on Arrow or Flash before (well kind of on Flash but it's not really slo mo, just us seeing the world at the same speed as Barry. )

Making that moment as Sara pulls out that knife slow-mo was like all the show runners shouting and pointing at Sara saying "Look! Look! Isn't she awesome!"

Yes she is!

Edited February 6, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Chicago Redshirt]

1. Was it not established yesterday that Sara did not have Thea's blood lust because John Constantine made her whole?

 

2. Jackson knows how to fight in a serious manner now?

 

3. So Savage's followers captured Sara and Hunter in the room where they kept Carter's body. They hauled our heroes out, and brought them to... the room where Carter's body was kept...?

 

4. After Savage was "killed" why did Hunter not take the body and just burn it? 

 

5. That long after his death, should Carter's blood not coagulate by then? As well, should he not be in rigor mortis already?

 

6. I am not sure I have the appetite to follow the series if all they do is hunt Savage from a point in time to other point only to have him resurrects at the end of each of the episode.

 

Most of these points have been addressed by other posters.

 

As to why take Sara and Rip to the chamber where Carter's body was going to be used in a ritual, it's classic villain 101. Especially since it turns out Rip had been made into a Satanic figure in "Vandalism." The Vandalistas were at the height of their power. Why wouldn't they monologue and brag, since Rip and Sara were bound, outnumbered and basically helpless? 

 

The only way that Rip and Hunter were saved was through a combination of magic (Kendra realizing Rip and Sara were in trouble and where they were) and advanced science (the Waverider and the hot/cold guns). 

[scarynikki12]

it's classic villain 101

 

I took it as proof that Savage has been around so long that he invented villain 101.  So it's normal behavior for him while a cliche for everyone else.

 

I will say that, as over the top as the red lighting was, it did serve to make Savage look maniacal for the first time so I'm fine if all of his scenes have a red tinge to them.

[bettername2come]

Lol. Yeah I still think of him as Rory myself. Having a different Rory on the show is just adding to the confusion.

Every time Stein calls Ray "Raymond" I get mildly confused thinking of Ronnie Raymond. And there's too many villains with "Dead" and "Death" in their name for me to keep track of. 

 

Like how everyone got decent mini-group stories. I kind of ship Rip/Sara, which could be super awkward if he ever brings his wife and son back. And I like the storyline with the Snarts and how Heatwave knew about Leonard's childhood. Apparently Lewis Snart becoming an abusive bastard is also a fixed point in history. 

 

I'm ridiculously excited that they're going from the year my sister was born to the year I was born. Obviously not done just for me, but still...appreciated.

[Maverick]

 As this is both a comic book and time travel show, I realize I have to suspend a lot of disbelief and have lowered expectations of plot sense.  There are some things that are just so dumb--not matter what universe--that they annoy.  Like for example, Rip not being able to kill Savage before he became immortal.  He's from 4,000 years in the future.  He could do anything from the mundane like a remote detonated bomb or poison in his water to some futuristic like vaporizing him with an energy weapon or injecting him with nanotechonology to kill him from the inside.  I'm sure there's some fancy self-targeting sniper rifle from 2130 he could use to take him our from afar.  Of he insisted on killing him up close he could of, you know, pulled out a gun and caped his ass.  All I could think of was the scene from Austin Powers where Seth Greene is telling Dr. Evil to stop doing the Rube Goldberg death schtick and just shoot Powers already.

[Sakura12]

Rip is thinking with his heart and he wanted vengeance which means seeing the man die with his own eyes. 

 

I'm okay with what they are doing because this is a comic book show. I've watched cartoons and they are dumb, if not dumber on how they handle their villains. Then with the no killing thing where the villains always escapes and hurts more people, again. As I said before if they end up actually killing Vandal at the end of the season that's a win for me. And I know it will be the end because that's how television shows work. 

[tessaray]

My bad - the guy who plays Rip Hunter also played a character on Dr. Who named Rory.  I intentionally called Rip 'Rory' to bring attention to this, mostly because Rip is (IMO) a surprisingly bald-faced ripoff of Dr. Who.  I didn't know Heat Wave's name was also Rory.  Sorry for the confusion.

 

Evidently the comics/Rip Hunter predate Doctor Who.  I've been a DW fan since Tom Baker, so I was a little surprised that Rory Williams disappeared (for me) by the end of the pilot.