S06.E04: Season 6, Episode 4

[beeble]

Oh why couldn't Kit Harrington have played Gwen's husband? Then she could have glared at Mary after her "You had every opportunity" comment to say "You know nothing, Lady Crowley." 

 

Matthew Goode looked seriously in need of a sandwich or two. 

 

I predict that Anna will have two sort-of emergencies and one whammo of an emergency that will require the Crowley's to put others' needs before their own, before she gives birth to a baby boy, whom she will name Bates Crowley Bates.

[TheGreenKnight]

In fairness it's perfectly possible to dislike Mary without being sexist. I happen to like her but I can see how others wouldn't.

I'm guessing people get touchy because there's literally no rebuttal when someone ascribes a motive to your unconscious; they can just keep saying you were unaware of it. :)

It's a huge jump in logic, of course used to protect a character someone likes from any criticism.... My reasons for disliking Mary have nothing to do with her being pretty, young, or outspoken, otherwise I'd have hated Sybil and Anna, too, but I don't. The qualities I don't like in Mary would be just as unlikable in a man--see Carson and Robert.

[jrlr]

I think that quality is particularly inherent to British actors, moreso than American ones. I can't remember if I read it here or somewhere else, but I remember seeing someone online talking about how British actors generally are not afraid to not look good, physically or in terms of character, in their acting. I feel like there are always rumors/blind items going around for actors on American television shows complaining about their character's arc because it doesn't make them look good, and obviously a lot of American shows feature characters super glammed up in situations where it wouldn't make any sense for them to be so. But British actors in general just seem very dedicated to the physical and emotional transformation that is necessary to deliver a good performance. This is obviously a generalization but it's something I really respect, and I think it's very true on this show.

 

 

 

Unlike most American actors, British actors not only go to good drama schools, but most of them are doing theatre when they're not doing British or American tv series.  They have actual acting chops rather than simply having plastic cheekbones, pouty fish lips and the burning desire to be a celebrities.  Look at the leads in critically acclaimed American shows like Homeland, The Americans, The Affair, Sons of Anarchy (okay, I know that's not a critically acclaimed show, but who could leave Charlie Hunnam off the list?) - all the male leads are British.

 

As for Mary, I enjoy watching her snipe and do the arrogant aristocrat bored-talk - although I actually like both flawed sisters.  Also, since Dockery's rl fiance died of cancer towards the end of 2015, it's possible that when they were filming while she was going through a terrible time in her life.

[queenanne]

And in real life Rose Leslie is an aristocrat if I remember this right.

 

She sure is, according to Wikipedia:

 

Leslie was born in Aberdeen and raised at Lickleyhead Castle in Aberdeenshire, her family's 15th century ancestral seat. Her father is Sebastian Arbuthnot-Leslie, the Aberdeenshire Chieftain of Clan Leslie, and her mother is Candida Mary Sibyl "Candy" Leslie (née Weld), great-granddaughter of Simon Fraser, 13th Lord Lovat (a descendant of Charles II). Her parents own the 12th century Warthill Castle in Aberdeenshire. Her great-great grandfather was Guillermo de Landa y Escandón, who served as Mayor of Mexico City.

 

I don't know if you can get much toffier than that, ha.  I have a lot of respect for the woman, who could probably lounge around and do nothing.

[whatsatool]

Kids were allowed to start joining the grown ups for dinner when they could be trusted to eat tidily, not make a mess, and remember which silverware to use for what.

I can see the appeal in that.

Edited January 28, 2016 by whatsatool

[madam magpie]

It's a huge jump in logic, of course used to protect a character someone likes from any criticism.... My reasons for disliking Mary have nothing to do with her being pretty, young, or outspoken, otherwise I'd have hated Sybil and Anna, too, but I don't. The qualities I don't like in Mary would be just as unlikable in a man--see Carson and Robert.

You do realize I was speaking generally, right? Talking about general ideas, general prejudices, a general cultural attitude toward women. This is something that has been the subject of many studies, books, research papers, articles, etc. Since I don't actually know you, I couldn't possibly address your own. I think it's a pretty huge leap in logic to jump on a general observation and turn it into a personal attack. And seriously, I don't need to protect Lady Mary. #1) She's not a real person. And #2) if she were, I suspect she could protect and snark for herself.

Edited January 28, 2016 by madam magpie

[millennium]

 

 

 

My biggest pet peeve with Talbot is that he's a race car driver and our dear Matthew died in a car accident. That should be enough, for Mary, to be at least hesitant towards him. But clearly, this is just me.

 

 

Not just you.   I cringed when Talbot responded to Mary's expressed disinterest in cars with "You just haven't been taught ... properly."   It felt like a subtle dig at Mary's dead husband.

 

Does anyone suppose there's a chance Daisy's clothing might catch fire while she's at the stove and furnish a fitting exit for this flaming idiot?

 

I felt no joy at Mr. Mason salivating over the Drewes' former home.   The hearth probably isn't even cold yet.

 

Good to see Rose Leslie again, but I kind of expected her every sentence to end with the words "Jon Snow."

 

"Hurrah for the servants' not putting us off our game with their married titles!"

[NoThyme]

I always thought that Tom and Edith would make good match. However, I know it isn't going to happen. So happy to see Gwen as she was a favorite. She made me realize how much I also miss Sybil.

Hoping for a sweet ending for Mrs Patmore. Either she goes with Daisy or she finds love with someone like the police officer. I like Daisy, she needs a Sybil to help her.

Edited January 28, 2016 by NoThyme

[Capricasix]

It's amazing to see and hear the actors when not in character. To me, Thomas always looks like a vampire with the milk white skin and black slicked-back hair. In normal dress and hair Rob is a handsome dude. Same with Jim Carter - Carson's stick-up-his-rear attitude drives me nuts but I love to watch him when he's not in character.

I guess that's what defines good actors - they are not just playing themselves in a role but creating totally different characters.

And the actor who played Tony Gillingham; he was in an episode of Black Mirror, and he's quite fine in modern dress! Also, I was watching Shakespeare in Love a couple of weeks ago and there was Jim Carter, as well as his wife Imelda Staunton :) Edited January 28, 2016 by Capricasix

[Andorra]

I always thought that Tom and Edith would make good match. 

 

For my life, I have no idea how it would be possible to fall for Edith if you were in love with Sybil. Sybil was confident and positive, happy and self assured. Edith is insecure, negative and depressed. That's night and day for me and we know people usually fall for partners who are similar and not completely different.

[SusanSunflower]

or Edith is outgoing, seizes the initiative and takes risks (and suffers consequences) ... whatever ... 

I always thought Tom and Edith were a natural pairing -- "journalism," interest in the outside world and "issues" -- obviously it never even crossed Fellowes' mind. 

Edith blossoms when given affection and a kind regard -- who knows what she might become if allowed both that security and autonomy from Downton. 

[EccentricLily]

 

Does anyone suppose there's a chance Daisy's clothing might catch fire while she's at the stove and furnish a fitting exit for this flaming idiot?

 

O, two thumbs up!

 

As for Thomas, in the last episode his pallor, dark eyes and slicked-back hair reminded me of Rudolph Valentino. I had no trouble whatever picturing him costumed as The Sheik.

 

Does anyone else remember Harriet Walter as Julia Comstock in “Keep the Aspidistra Flying” (“A Merry War” in the US)? Jim Carter is there too, along with Richard E. Grant and Helena Bonham-Carter. (It’s a gem.)

 

Mary. I've always liked her in spite of the sniping. At times I get the impression she snipes at Edith purely because it's expected of her. As far as the monkey-typewriter-Bible remark, I assumed she was emphasizing the unlikelihood of her own compliments to Edith.

 

[millennium]

Hee, I hadn't thought of naming Baby Bates, Norman, but it would be perfect.  

 

Would they address him as "Master Bates" when he gets older?

[helenamonster]

Unlike most American actors, British actors not only go to good drama schools, but most of them are doing theatre when they're not doing British or American tv series.  They have actual acting chops rather than simply having plastic cheekbones, pouty fish lips and the burning desire to be a celebrities.  Look at the leads in critically acclaimed American shows like Homeland, The Americans, The Affair, Sons of Anarchy (okay, I know that's not a critically acclaimed show, but who could leave Charlie Hunnam off the list?) - all the male leads are British.

 

Yes this is true too. I feel like generally, British actors treat their acting in the same way most of us treat our careers, and that it's not just a little side project for them to do between talk show appearances and red carpets. On the other side of the coin, I also feel that British actors, while taking their jobs seriously, don't turn it into a whole thing where they become so immersed in a part and take months to extract themselves from it in the same way that a lot of American actors who follow the Method claim to do. Idk, the whole show business culture there just seems so much more simple than here, and it comes across in their programs.

 

From a couple comments upthread about Anna not being smart/witty/sarcastic...I think she can be very witty and sarcastic when she wants to be, especially in earlier seasons before her life turned to shit. As for not being smart, no, she hasn't had a lot of access to education, but we've seen her reading a lot and she seems generally well-informed about the world. She's also, for the most part, very intuitive about people and can pick up on others' moods quite easily...interpersonal intelligence, while not as valued as academic intelligence, still very much exists.

 

I know that the medical emergency that's going to bring the hospital debate to a head (spec, no spoilers) seems like it's going to be Robert, but I hadn't really considered the possibility of it being Anna. I mean I should because it's Anna and anything bad that can happen to her will, but I guess I was just holding out hope that the rest of the pregnancy would be smooth sailing because we've already seen childbirth at its worst with Sybil. Not that Fellowes hasn't repeated himself before, but that would be a huge one to redo. I think no matter what Anna and Bates will get their happy ending but I hope we can avoid a Sybil-esque fakeout before we get there.

[Gimmick Genius]

 

Also, I was watching Shakespeare in Love a couple of weeks ago and there was Jim Carter, as well as his wife Imelda Staunton :)

"That woman ... is a woman!!!" Yes, Jim Carter is hilarious as Juliet's Nurse.

[ShadowFacts]

 

I know that the medical emergency that's going to bring the hospital debate to a head (spec, no spoilers) seems like it's going to be Robert, but I hadn't really considered the possibility of it being Anna. I mean I should because it's Anna and anything bad that can happen to her will, but I guess I was just holding out hope that the rest of the pregnancy would be smooth sailing because we've already seen childbirth at its worst with Sybil. Not that Fellowes hasn't repeated himself before, but that would be a huge one to redo. I think no matter what Anna and Bates will get their happy ending but I hope we can avoid a Sybil-esque fakeout before we get there.

 

It sure looks like it will be Robert what with him dyspeptic every episode, but I now think Carson is a candidate.  There was the scene of him saying goodbye to his bedroom and removing his name from the door, plus the camera lingered on Thomas looking at him as he was leaving the servants and going up the stairs. 

[SusanSunflower]

let's see -- Anna with her pregnancy, Robert with his dyspepsia, Carter with his history of prior collapse, elderly Violet, Thomas with his existential crisis ... Probably will be Mary thrown from a horse or someone with a broken ankle who slipped on a wet floor, maybe Tom with a gallbladder attack (from all that rich food) or Moseley run down by a bus (like Greene!!!) 

[guilfoyleatpp]

Two smallish points of order - the male lead in Homeland is Mandy Patinkin, and as far as I know, he's not English or in any way British. I'm not sure who the British actor you are speaking of in Homeland might be.  F. Murray Abraham?  Oh, I know, the red headed dude who played the soldier.  Got it.  Sorry, more interested in Mandy P.

 

One of the biggest "method" type actors is Daniel Day Lewis, who is definitely British, an acclaimed and accomplished actor and who gets into his parts so ridiculously deep that it's a "thing."  For example, when he was in "Gangs of New York," according to Liam Neeson, DDL lived in the character of Bill the Butcher. 

 

I know we are speaking generally, and I agree that most English and British actors get more stage time than American actors, for whom it's a conscious effort rather than expected, but those two statements stuck out to me.

Edited January 29, 2016 by guilfoyleatpp

[Andorra]

 

Oh, I know, the red headed dude who played the soldier

 

Damian Lewis. 

[lucindabelle]

Whoa. There are many wonderful American acting schools and it's simply untrue that English actors are better than American actors. I've worked professionally in theatre in both countries. What is true is that because it takes as long to travel from the bottom of Wales to the top of Scotland as it does to drive to Canada from New York, British actors can do theatre, television a do film "at the same time" in a way that isn't possible for most American actors as there are only a handful of shows based in NYC, and only an we legit Theatres in La.

I certainly agreed that all of the acting in Downton abbey is excellent, better than the script itself, and raises the whole experience.

On another note, Julian did the book to the terrific Broadway musical school off rock, running now. So far as I know all the performers are American, including the talented kids (it's a huge equity deal when they aren't). And it's terrific.nalec bright ann nd Sierra boggess simply amazing.

[Roseanna]

For my life, I have no idea how it would be possible to fall for Edith if you were in love with Sybil. Sybil was confident and positive, happy and self assured. Edith is insecure, negative and depressed. That's night and day for me and we know people usually fall for partners who are similar and not completely different.

 

Edith is insecure, negative and depressed with Mary, but never with men. On the contrary, she has been positive, happy and self assured  with Strallan and Gregson and lately with Bertie. And most of all loving.

 

Also Mary who is often hard, cold and selfish was different with Matthew and is now with Tom.

 

Although people irl often chose similar types, it's not a good pattern in drama. Second Matthew" or "second Sybil" would always lose the competition with the original ones.

 

Fellowes has a good idea with Bertie. Gregson inspired Edith who lacked self-confidence and now Edith inspires Bertie who has the same problem, but both seems like real relationships.

Instead, Mary and Talbot's flirted calculatingly whereas with Tom she has no need to play power games. 

[Andorra]

 

Edith is insecure, negative and depressed with Mary, but never with men. On the contrary, she has been positive, happy and self assured  with Strallan and Gregson and lately with Bertie. And most of all loving.

 

 

I wouldn't call her self assured with any of those men. More needy. And she made sure to tell each one of them what a failure her family thinks she is. The poor, poor victim attitude again. 

 

No, I would rather have Tom die than married to Edith. What a terrible prospect!

[Roseanna]

You do realize I was speaking generally, right? Talking about general ideas, general prejudices, a general cultural attitude toward women. This is something that has been the subject of many studies, books, research papers, articles, etc. Since I don't actually know you, I couldn't possibly address your own. I think it's a pretty huge leap in logic to jump on a general observation and turn it into a personal attack. And seriously, I don't need to protect Lady Mary. #1) She's not a real person. And #2) if she were, I suspect she could protect and snark for herself.

 

I think that there are two different matters. It's right and proper that men women are estimated and, if there are reason to it, criticized according to the same standards. Women shouldn't criticized f.ex. for bullying harsher than men.

 

On other hand, if one thinks something is bad, it's bad for men and women alike. If one doesn't accept bullying and doesn't forgive men who bully, why should one forgive women who do it? 

 

As for Mary, we can't really know how well she can protect herself because she has only once met an equal or superior opponent, namely Carlisle and with him she didn't succeed very well, in fact she let her keep her in a hostage because of her past until Robert and Matthew said that it wasn't necessary for the "family honor". Also her being totally unable to do anything for six months after Matthew died doesn't anticipate that she would cope well f.ex. with a situation where she would have to flee from home before the enemy soldiers came - a situation millions of Europeans had to face in 20th century. 

[kpw801]

Edith is insecure, negative and depressed with Mary, but never with men. On the contrary, she has been positive, happy and self assured  with Strallan and Gregson and lately with Bertie. And most of all loving.

 

Also Mary who is often hard, cold and selfish was different with Matthew and is now with Tom.

 

Although people irl often chose similar types, it's not a good pattern in drama. Second Matthew" or "second Sybil" would always lose the competition with the original ones.

 

Fellowes has a good idea with Bertie. Gregson inspired Edith who lacked self-confidence and now Edith inspires Bertie who has the same problem, but both seems like real relationships.

Instead, Mary and Talbot's flirted calculatingly whereas with Tom she has no need to play power games. 

 

I wouldn't call her self assured with any of those men. More needy. And she made sure to tell each one of them what a failure her family thinks she is. The poor, poor victim attitude again. 

 

No, I would rather have Tom die than married to Edith. What a terrible prospect!

I wouldn't call her self assured with any of those men. More needy. And she made sure to tell each one of them what a failure her family thinks she is. The poor, poor victim attitude again. 

 

No, I would rather have Tom die than married to Edith. What a terrible prospect!

I disagree.  She isn't playing the victim.  She has consistently been victimized by her family.  After they sabotaged her relationship with Anthony Strallan TWICE (first Mary, then her father and grandmother), she found something to do.  She wrote a letter to the editor about something she felt strongly about.  Before it even got out in the mail properly, they were berating her for having the nerve to write to a newspaper editor.  Her talent for putting words together was noticed and remarked upon by Anthony Strallan and even Farmer Drake.  That was one thing she had going for her but instead of encouraging her Lord Grantham said her ideas were basically not good enough and assumed (before he even read anything she wrote) that the paper wanted to capitalize on her title.  He would dismissively say to Matthew - in front of Edith, "Please don't encourage her".  When Mary decided she would be the Agent, even though he wasn't sure a woman could do it, nothing was said to discourage her.  Everything Edith tries to do, from marrying to writing has been met with an obstinate determined effort to discourage her.  Let's think about what discourage means.  It means to take courage, self confidence and assurance away.  This is done with disturbing regularity to Edith.  I don't find her playing the victim so much as just stating the obvious.  She mentions the way her family treat her and when Bertie was there for the open house, his expression at Mary's sniping showed that he had been told about how they treat her and he saw proof. 

It isn't like Edith says, look how horribly I am treated and then breaks down in tears.  She states a fact and then goes about her business in spite of her family's opinions.  When Robert finally saw her finished work with getting the magazine out, he realized she is a successful and talented writer/editor.

Edited January 29, 2016 by kpw801

[Roseanna]

I wouldn't call her self assured with any of those men. More needy. And she made sure to tell each one of them what a failure her family thinks she is. The poor, poor victim attitude again. 

 

Well, when you are young, you look matters black-and-white. After you (hopefully) grow up, you see and admit that a person whom you have regarded a complete failure in school has in fact made a successful career, and a person whom you have regarded totally unattractive as teenager has in fact made a happy marriage.

 

Most of all, you stop to refuse human value from persons you don't like and understand that if other people value them, maybe they are not so hopeless after all. (That doesn't mean that you have to like them but you try to keep evaluating and liking apart so much as humanly possibly.) 

 

I believe that fiction is a good way to learn to look matters from the another angle as we know about the characters more than we can never know about real persons.     

[Clanstarling]

For my life, I have no idea how it would be possible to fall for Edith if you were in love with Sybil. Sybil was confident and positive, happy and self assured. Edith is insecure, negative and depressed. That's night and day for me and we know people usually fall for partners who are similar and not completely different.

It is interesting how our own experiences impact what "we know." I understand that common knowledge states that people usually fall for similar partners - but in my own personal experience (my own, my siblings, my friends) I haven't seen that at all. In fact, I can't think of one new spouse/partner who was anything like the previous one. So for me the idea of Tom and Edith isn't out of the question at all.

 

Edith is insecure, negative and depressed with Mary, but never with men. On the contrary, she has been positive, happy and self assured  with Strallan and Gregson and lately with Bertie. And most of all loving.

 

Also Mary who is often hard, cold and selfish was different with Matthew and is now with Tom.

 

Fellowes has a good idea with Bertie. Gregson inspired Edith who lacked self-confidence and now Edith inspires Bertie who has the same problem, but both seems like real relationships.

Instead, Mary and Talbot's flirted calculatingly whereas with Tom she has no need to play power games. 

This. Different people create different relationship dynamics. Familial relationships are very different than romantic relationships. In both types of relationships, even if there is love, some are toxic, some are safe and comfortable, and some encourage growth.

Edited January 29, 2016 by clanstarling

[madam magpie]

I think that there are two different matters. It's right and proper that men women are estimated and, if there are reason to it, criticized according to the same standards. Women shouldn't criticized f.ex. for bullying harsher than men.

 

On other hand, if one thinks something is bad, it's bad for men and women alike. If one doesn't accept bullying and doesn't forgive men who bully, why should one forgive women who do it? 

 

As for Mary, we can't really know how well she can protect herself because she has only once met an equal or superior opponent, namely Carlisle and with him she didn't succeed very well, in fact she let her keep her in a hostage because of her past until Robert and Matthew said that it wasn't necessary for the "family honor". Also her being totally unable to do anything for six months after Matthew died doesn't anticipate that she would cope well f.ex. with a situation where she would have to flee from home before the enemy soldiers came - a situation millions of Europeans had to face in 20th century. 

 

I don't think I understand what you're saying here. It sounds like your point is that because the fictional Lady Mary was being blackmailed by Richard and didn't know how to handle that, and  because she fell into a terrible depression after her husband died, it means she actually does need theoretical defense in an internet debate. If that is what you meant, all I really have to say is...well, OK. I don't agree with that at all, but to each his/her own.

 

As for the stuff about cultural attitudes about women, I agree that the goal is not to laud women for being bullies. I don't believe I'm doing that, of course, and I'm willing to forgive many people many things. I also believe that often what we call "women bullying" is actually women stepping outside the norms of traditional female behavior and being judged negatively for it. And I think, as I said early on, that one of the reasons many people dislike Mary is that her humor is so dry and biting, she comes across as mean to the core...in that way, I think she's very much like Violet. But at this point, it's all beating a dead horse and is pretty off topic.

Edited January 29, 2016 by madam magpie

[Roseanna]

I wouldn't call her self assured with any of those men. More needy. And she made sure to tell each one of them what a failure her family thinks she is. The poor, poor victim attitude again. 

 

Edith was needy with Strallan and, thinking that he was her last chance to marry, she pursued him. But Gregson showed first interest in her, after which she showed that she was interested in him. The same seems to happen with Bertie. That's not needy for she is no more pushy. Everybody needs love - its not needy to push one's luck when you meet a person who is worth it as these two men are.

 

Edith is also brave enough to be honest and show openly her vulnerability which is a good basis on a serious relationship.          

[Stella MD]

 

let's see -- Anna with her pregnancy, Robert with his dyspepsia, Carter with his history of prior collapse, elderly Violet, Thomas with his existential crisis ... Probably will be Mary thrown from a horse or someone with a broken ankle who slipped on a wet floor, maybe Tom with a gallbladder attack (from all that rich food) or Moseley run down by a bus (like Greene!!!)

The point of the medical crisis will be to force Violet to change her opinion about the hospital system, though. Thus the victim has to be someone whose health she cares about. Robert, Mary, even Violet herself would fit the bill, but I doubt a serious illness (or even death) involving Anna or any of the other servants would elicit more than a half-hearted "that's a shame" from Violet.

[Andorra]

Edith is also brave enough to be honest and show openly her vulnerability which is a good basis on a serious relationship.          

 

But please not with Tom. Poor Tom to wake up to whining Edith every day. What a horrible nightmare his life would be! Urgh. Seriously, it makes my stomach turn. She shall have Bertie. He's just right for her. I never wanted Tom to remain single, but EVERYTHING is better than have him married to Edith! (shudder)

[proserpina65]

But please not with Tom. Poor Tom to wake up to whining Edith every day. What a horrible nightmare his life would be! Urgh. Seriously, it makes my stomach turn. She shall have Bertie. He's just right for her. I never wanted Tom to remain single, but EVERYTHING is better than have him married to Edith! (shudder)

I feel this way about pairing him up with bitchy Mary.  I was happy when he'd gone looking for a life outside of Downton, but now the poor man is back.

[SusanSunflower]

 

one of the reasons many people dislike Mary is that her humor is so dry and biting,

not so much, more that she's a bully and rather absurdly competitive about her tastes and preferences prevailing (i.e. getting her own way) ... obviously ymmv 

She reminds me a family member who is remarkably persuasive, funny and charming and a relentless bully (charmingly, teasingly, secretly backstabbingly) .. see also untrustworthy 

[caligirl50]

 

 

On another note, Julian did the book to the terrific Broadway musical school off rock, running now. So far as I know all the performers are American, including the talented kids (it's a huge equity deal when they aren't). And it's terrific.nalec bright ann nd Sierra boggess simply amazing.

 

 

What does this mean?  

[Constantinople]

The point of the medical crisis will be to force Violet to change her opinion about the hospital system, though. Thus the victim has to be someone whose health she cares about. Robert, Mary, even Violet herself would fit the bill...

 

If Violet died, the opposition to the hospital merger would die with her, but I'd be surprised if Fellowes did that.  He never struck me as someone willing to kill off his characters unless absolutely necessary.

[saki]

I love dry witty humour - but, for me, Mary doesn't display that at all. I don't like Tom that much but I wouldn't wish Mary on him - I don't see how someone who loved someone as down to earth abd warm as Sybil could love a cold class conscious person like Mary.

I don't see Tom/Edith as a great fit either but they are both outward facing which is important, I think. Mary is all about the estate and doesn't share their interest in politics, etc

[SusanSunflower]

Oh, I was joking ... I was referencing the idea that rather than the "medical crisis" advancing the story line, it might be something utterly trivial ... see Marigold's 15 minute kidnapping in which she happily went to the Drewe's farm to be cuddled ... I doubt she needed convincing or "candy" ... no child was traumatized or even confused ... even if Edith "nearly had had a heart-attack" for the 3 minutes of wondering where the child had gone to ... 

Yes, any mother would panic and be outraged if their child "disappeared" and then was found to have been "taken" even by an inconsiderate friend without notice ... but hardly the Lindbergh Kidnapping ... particularly considering what we already knew about Mrs. Drewe's "fragile" state of mind and obstinate nature.  Most mothers have similar tales of terror wrt toddlers.  At about that age, I was found nearly a half-mile from home on Cape Cod, walking along the road, stark naked with my pail and shovel, "going to the beach" ... 

Edited January 29, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[helenamonster]

Whoa. There are many wonderful American acting schools and it's simply untrue that English actors are better than American actors. I've worked professionally in theatre in both countries. What is true is that because it takes as long to travel from the bottom of Wales to the top of Scotland as it does to drive to Canada from New York, British actors can do theatre, television a do film "at the same time" in a way that isn't possible for most American actors as there are only a handful of shows based in NYC, and only an we legit Theatres in La.

 

I was speaking generally, and don't think that just because someone is British or English that they're a better American actor. I just think the Hollywood system has a higher rate of turning out celebrities and actors obsessed with image than the British system does, and I think it's a result of their approach to acting. Generally, I don't think someone would get very far in the British acting world if they didn't have a lot of training or theater experience, whereas any half-wit with celebrity status can get a movie made for them in the States. There are obviously exceptions, but in my experiences I have found this to be the case.

 

And that's the last I'll say on the matter as it's getting wildly off-topic.

 

The point of the medical crisis will be to force Violet to change her opinion about the hospital system, though. Thus the victim has to be someone whose health she cares about. Robert, Mary, even Violet herself would fit the bill, but I doubt a serious illness (or even death) involving Anna or any of the other servants would elicit more than a half-hearted "that's a shame" from Violet.

 

This is an excellent point, though if something terrible happened to Anna or the baby--whether it was death or something coming extremely close--as a result of Violet's stance on hospital merger, I think the family would ice her out, at least for a little bit, and that might cause her to rethink her position. She may not mean much to Violet but she means a lot to damn near every member of the Crawley family.

 

If Violet died, the opposition to the hospital merger would die with her, but I'd be surprised if Fellowes did that.  He never struck me as someone willing to kill off his characters unless absolutely necessary.

 

Also I think Fellowes said he would never kill Violet off, so that's why I'm not holding my breath about anything happening to her.

[SoSueMe]

So funny all the anguish over what to call Mrs. Hughes/Carson. I've always had a hard time explaining to myself the whole Crawley (Mary) marrying Crawley (Matthew). Of course I missed the whole first season and vital information, lol. I really must get around to watching that :) 

[lulee]

So funny all the anguish over what to call Mrs. Hughes/Carson. I've always had a hard time explaining to myself the whole Crawley (Mary) marrying Crawley (Matthew). Of course I missed the whole first season and vital information, lol. I really must get around to watching that :)

It's explained in season 1, but Matthew was a fairly distant relation to Earl (third cousin, once removed) and thus to Mary.

I think they'd never met before it wasn't like Fanny Price and Edmund Bertram in Mansfield Park where for each, the mother-in-law was also an aunt.

Edited January 30, 2016 by lulee

[Featherhat]

Matthew was either Robert's 3rd cousin or 3rd cousin once removed, making him either Mary's 3rd cousin once removed or 4th cousin. So great, great grandparents are the closest relatives they might share. The solicitor had to trace the line back that far (so Mary and Matthew could fall in love without ewww) to find a direct descendant of the younger son of younger son male lines, which by that time had become upper middle class professional who had forgotten they were descendants of an Earl as anything more than a curiosity. Mary and Patrick is more weird (though still legal today I believe) as they were 2nd cousins.

[Roseanna]

I don't think I understand what you're saying here. It sounds like your point is that because the fictional Lady Mary was being blackmailed by Richard and didn't know how to handle that, and  because she fell into a terrible depression after her husband died, it means she actually does need theoretical defense in an internet debate. If that is what you meant, all I really have to say is...well, OK. I don't agree with that at all, but to each his/her own.

 

As for the stuff about cultural attitudes about women, I agree that the goal is not to laud women for being bullies. I don't believe I'm doing that, of course, and I'm willing to forgive many people many things. I also believe that often what we call "women bullying" is actually women stepping outside the norms of traditional female behavior and being judged negatively for it. And I think, as I said early on, that one of the reasons many people dislike Mary is that her humor is so dry and biting, she comes across as mean to the core...in that way, I think she's very much like Violet. But at this point, it's all beating a dead horse and is pretty off topic.

 

I answered to your remarks that there was no need to defend Mary because she was able to defend herself, by pointing that Mary's ability to snipe others doesn't prove that she could defend herself in the serious circumstances and that actually we can't even know whether she is really strong because Fellows has spared her from the real consequences of her actions (although she had to live in fear of them). 

 

As for humor, I can't remember a time when Mary has made a fun of herself which is a real proof of sense of humor.

 

Do you really see humor or wittiness in her remarks to Edith (in the hair-cut scene) "you spoil everything"? All Mary's most callous words are of same kind, downright mean and cruel. The only "kind" interpretation I can invent is that Edith's pain reminds her own her own for Matthew which she can't bear, so she attacks Edith.

 

That's not saying that Mary is only mean and cruel, she can also be emphatic and support the other as seen by her relationship with Tom after Sybil died. What's essential, she hadn't a special bond with Tom at that time. She began to be kind to him for Sybil's and Sybbie's sake, she defended his decision that Sybbie would be a Catholic against Robert and she could even cope with his horrible brother. All that no doubt created a bond between them which were strengthened when they worked together for Downton. There is naturalness and closeness between them which is sadly lacking in Mary's relationships with her various suitors.

 

I think Fellowes did a great mistake by giving Mary "all" for "to whom much is given, much is demanded". If Mary were fighting against the formidable opponent and/or pining for a man she can't have, I would feel for her as I earlier had. Now when she has only petty problems and she still behaves like a teenager she longer is, it's much harder.    

[Roseanna]

Mary complimented Edith on her decision to look for a female editor. She and Isobel supported Edith's call while other family members showed skepticism or disapproval. Edith has nothing to say when Mary adds her supportive comments and that's when she walks away.

 

I am conscious of cultural differences (the British and Americans say more often "thank you" than is usual in my country). Yet I still find odd that if somebody agrees with my opinion or idea, I should regard it as a compliment and even supportive for which I must be thankful and say it aloud. As I see, agreeing or disagreeing with my opinions or ideas is nothing personal, and I only want that the others say what they honestly think, not that they humor me saying compliments.

 

Now, Edith needed support and encouragement before​ when she had trouble with her editor but she didn't get any. On the contrary, Mary told to Anna (although luckily not to Edith) that Edith "liked" to have drama. On the hand, perhaps it was good that Edith could handle situation on her own because that showed that she truly had grown up.

 

At least Robert complimented her for her success as it's important to share joy of especially one's first success with someone whom one is close. But Mary pointedly didn't say anything even when Robert asked her to do so.

 

As Mary didn't neither encourage nor praise Edith then when it did matter, I can't understand why should Edith have to thank her for "support" when it was just an empty gesture (save to be polite)? After Edith edited her magazine, she isn't in real need of support and encouragement from her family any more.      

[Andorra]

 

As for humor, I can't remember a time when Mary has made a fun of herself which is a real proof of sense of humor.

 

I can:

 

" You should learn to forget what I say. I know I do." (Mary to Matthew)

 

"Don't you know? I don't have a heart". (Mary to Anna)

 

"I'm not good at hanging back I'm afraid." (Mary to Dr. Clarkson)

[kassa]

Soapy non spoiler suggestion for medical crisis/hospital resolution storyline - Marigold gets sick, needs transplant, secret is revealed, Mary is best match, dithers about donating, Carson dies and Marigold gets HIS whatever, Mary sees error of her ways and grows to love Marigold because she reminds her of Carson. Edith is still miffed. Mrs Hughes now has a cottage and Carson's nest egg. Mrs Patmore moves in and they're bachelor girls together.

Yes, I know transplants hadn't been invented yet.

[Constantinople]

No, I would rather have Tom die than married to Edith. What a terrible prospect!

Lady Sybil should have been the next Beatrice Webb.

I too would rather that Tom die than turn another Crawley daughter from a pioneering 20th century woman, balancing a personal life while managing an estate or running a magazine, into a barefoot and pregnant house frau baking in the kitchen.

[Andorra]

Sybil was neither barefoot nor a house frau. She was a nurse and looked perfectly happy and healthy. As estate manager Tom would have had plenty of money to properly provide for a family. The job of estate manager is middle class. They would live in a comfortable house with a comfortable income. 

[Constantinople]

Sybil was neither barefoot nor a house frau. She was a nurse and looked perfectly happy and healthy. As estate manager Tom would have had plenty of money to properly provide for a family. The job of estate manager is middle class. They would live in a comfortable house with a comfortable income.

 

Sybil was a nurse during the war before they were married.

 

Lady Sybil: And what about my work?

Branson: What work? Bringing hot drinks to a lot of randy officers?

[Roseanna]

 Sybil was a nurse during the war before they were married.

 

Sybil said that she was going to work as nurse in Dublin where Tom was going to  work as a journalist.

 

But could Sybil have continued her work after she had a baby?

[Andorra]

Sybil said that she was going to work as nurse in Dublin where Tom was going to  work as a journalist.

 

But could Sybil have continued her work after she had a baby?

 

Probably not, because no woman worked if she had a Baby in the early 20th century. Not if she not absolutely had to. It was just not a life concept for a woman to work and have children. 

 

And btw Constantinople:

 

Sybil put Branson's work down first. 

 

SYBIL: But you won't be content to stay at Downton forever, will you? Tinkering away at an engine instead of fighting for freedom? I thought you'd join the rising in Dublin last Easter. 

 

 

Unlike Sybil, Branson apologized though. Unfortunately the scene was cut, but it is in the original script. 

 

 

BRANSON: I was harsh with you the other night. To speak slightingly of your work. I'd no right to do that. 

 

SYBIL: No you didn't

 

BRANSON: It's just that when I look at you, not being sure if you're mine, I feel I may explode. 

Edited January 31, 2016 by Andorra

[yb125]

 

Probably not, because no woman worked if she had a Baby in the early 20th century. Not if she absolutely had to. It was just not a life concept for a woman to work and have children.

But this really matter in the world of DA? They are already shown a number of times that they don't care about what the norm of the time period. 

I mean they give Anna the option to keep working after the baby.

I really don't think Fellows would have had Sybil quit nursing permanently. It's just not his style heck all the women now have work, Mary as the tenant, Edith with the newspaper and Cora, Violet and Isobel with the hospital.