S20.E03: Week 3

[mirandroid]

Jeez, Amber. As the grandma of this year's Bachelor internment, you should have enough maturity to restrain yourself from showing your claws and attacking another girl in front of - you know - the actual Bachelor. Seriously, that shit was catty and uncalled for. Team Jubilee.

[Blakeston]

I don't recall her stating she was better than everyone else there, but that she was more complicated, and that Ben seemed so far to go for breezy happy types. I think that's a reasonable statement with her history, and a reasonable observation to make at this point in the game.

If someone said to me, "I'm more complicated than any of you are," I'd take that as an insult. She might as well have told the others that they're all more simple-minded than she is.

[kia112]

I'm also quite uncomfortable with all these accusations of racism. Amber ambushes Jubilee, she's being a mean girl; would it have been "racist" if it were a white girl the producers chose to do said ambush? The "soccer mom" comments really baffle me. Kaitlyn, for example, is white as white can be, I wouldn't exactly confuse her with a soccer mom.

 

Depends on what and how she said it.

 

I'm uncomfortable with people who have actually experienced racism, and see their experiences reflected in situations on this show, being told that it's not.  I saw some coded stuff here and there, but if I don't see it, I'm not going to tell someone else it's not there.

 

I say this, even though I may risk Jubilee-levels of misunderstanding of my tone :)  I don't say the above to be snarky at all, just a troubling trend I've noticed.

[ByTor]

Depends on what and how she said it.

I completely agree. However, I do think, in this case, if whoever it was that made the "soccer mom" comment (I think it was the kindergarten teacher) was looking down at Jubilee, it wasn't about her race but about her look. I feel like there are many out there who write off people with tattoos as "trashy" without even knowing them (I say this as someone with a fairly large tattoo on my back). Also, not to offend any stereotypical soccer moms out there, but if someone said that about me, I'd be happy, mainly because I don't want to be a stereotypical anything.

I'm uncomfortable with people who have actually experienced racism, and see their experiences reflected in situations on this show, being told that it's not.

But sometimes, it's really not.

[Mabinogia]

The thing about the "soccer mom" comment is, is that even what Ben wants? Did he say that is the type of girl he is looking for? (maybe he did and I just don't remember) but he is showing a genuine interest in Jubilee, the person who was referenced as not fitting that mold, so I think that shows he is open to more than one kind of woman. Maybe he is looking for someone who will pull him out of his buttoned up life. We don't know unless he says it. I thought it was very presumptuous to assume what kind of wife he is looking for.

[yorklee2]

I don't know -- I don't think Jubilee is self-involved, or a miserable drama queen. It was the other women that were spending 100% of their time talking about how she won't come back, won't get a rose, doesn't get along, etc. They were stirring the pot -- or at least a few of them were, at any rate. 

 

I do think, based on what we've seen, she IS far more complicated than the other girls. I enjoyed her conversation with Ben much more than what they showed of Caila's and Lauren B's one-on-one dates. Perhaps it's creative editing, but it felt like both Caila and Lauren B. are very nice girls, but sheltered with little life experience (which is fine, we're dealing with 24-year-olds here). It doesn't mean that the other girls are bad, but clearly, someone who has had a lot of ups and downs in their life will have more depth than someone who hasn't.

 

 

As far as the "offensive joke," I didn't understand the big deal. Obviously, she was kidding -- she was making a joke about her fear of heights! I think that even Amber realized how incredibly stupid the whole "she made a joke about giving the date away and it was UNGRATEFUL and we're all upset!" rationale sounded when she started to explain it to Ben/Jubilee. Uh... Ben was RIGHT THERE. He heard it -- and if he thought it was ~so~ offensive, he could've sent Jubilee packing. And if he had, I trust that the Powers That Be (aka editing) would've made it seem like Jubilee was the worst date ever and Ben would still come out looking like a saint. But no, clearly, Ben understood that she was just kidding, maybe to alleviate her nerves? Regardless,  it seemed strange for the girls to get offended on behalf of Ben, when Ben was there to witness the "offensive joke" and make his own judgment call on her humor.

 

Also, I can't help but think, on Chris Soules' season, most people LOVED Kaitlyn for that same sort humor. Yes, Kaitlyn's delivery was a little more robust, but honestly, the whole "I'm terrified of heights, anyone else want this date?!" or "Hey, you're 20 minutes late" jokes seem totally like something Kaitlyn would say -- kind of reminds me of the "You have glitter on you - WHO IS SHE?" when she got out of the limo. I think Jubilee has a similar sense of humor (giving the guy a little bit of a hard time, but in a gentle/teasing way), but just struggles with the delivery a bit more. And before the trainwreck of her season, a lot of viewers would've loved her for it.

This right here! This was exactly what I was trying to say in a earlier post but you said it so much better.

[Pixie Chicken]

I'm uncomfortable with the "type" comments on the show, and here, to a lesser degree. There's no one "type" of black woman, or Asian woman, or blonde Barbie-esque woman.

I'm a soccer mom. Early (okay, mid) thirties, SAHM, drive a mini van, the whole bit. I'm white and Christian. But before my kids, I taught in rough urban schools. Now, I do a lot of volunteer work-- some with church, some not. I'm in a book club. I run and have other hobbies. Of my closest friends, only one is a mom like me. When I look around the soccer field, there are some moms who are a lot like me, and many who are not.

People are more than a sum of descriptors. It's wrong to look at Jubilee and make assumptions. The same is true of anyone else.

[ByTor]

People are more than a sum of descriptors. It's wrong to look at Jubilee and make assumptions. The same is true of anyone else.

Exactly.

[wovenloaf]

I really like Jubilee after last night. I like that she's a little bit awkward. I'm a lot a bit awkward and I've done pretty well for myself thus far (in that Mr. Wovenloaf is really great, and I like my life!), so Interchangeable Blond who thinks she "knows" what all men want can go away. I also did not get the impression that Jubilee was discussing the tragedy of her family dying for attention. The look on her face screamed "I'd rather be talking about anything else right now," to me anyway. I really felt for her in that moment. I also like that she actually made an attempt to help Ben feel better, while all the rest of them could only whine about how they needed their time to get their rose. I didn't get why so many of the others were so mad at her...All I can guess is that they were jealous and/or just shitty people!

 

And yeah, what the hell was with Amber? I hadn't realized she was so catty. Ick. 

[leighdear]

I'm just happy that there was at least one serious conversation and a deep person in this show that only the crazy wins.

Juelia had that same type of conversation with Chris Soules, about her husband that committed suicide.  Kelsey also had that kind of conversation with Chris Soules about her husband that dropped dead.  JJ had a serious and self-incriminating conversation with Kaitlyn about cheating on his then-pregnant wife.  Sean listened to Catherine describe watching her friend die at camp.  

 

Difficult, serious and painful conversations happen every season.  And the lead has to stay and hear them even if they aren't on an actual date with that person.  They have no option to run & hide.  

 

Ben handled it well but so have the others. It's the rule, not the exception.  They would never air a poor reaction.  

Edited January 20, 2016 by leighdear

[Padma]

I wondered about Becca's reserve on CS's season, but now I wonder if she's a bit of a snob. I know Whitney praised her sense of humor, but she just seems incredibly boring.  

 

Olivia's awful, but she's already gotten her "payback" from this show. No one will forget that she has cankles.  Anyone who has seen the show will be looking at her feet and smiling because--under some very expensive shoes--they will be imagining her awful "chicken toes", too. (Which probably aren't that bad. But, already self-conscious about her ankles, that image will follow her, too. Even if people aren't noticing it, she'll think they are just because it's such a big deal to her.)

'

From leighdear

 

Juelia had that same type of conversation with Chris Soules, about her husband that committed suicide.  Kelsey also had that kind of conversation with Chris Soules about her husband that dropped dead.  JJ had a serious and self-incriminating conversation with Kaitlyn about cheating on his then-pregnant wife.  Sean listened to Catherine describe watching her friend die at camp.

 

Difficult, serious and painful conversations happen every season.  And the lead has to stay and hear them even if they aren't on an actual date with that person.  They have no option to run & hide. Ben handled it well but so have the others. It's the rule, not the exception

 

To me, what's been making Ben's dates so different is that it's not just women revealing their tragedies ("cankles!") to him and him being empathetic. Yes, we've seen that before, to varying degrees of actual response.

 

What's surprising and different about Ben is how his dates --whether with Jubileh sharing her past tragedies, or Lauren B listening to Ben being open--both dates seemed to be building actual relationships. Not just where the bachelor listens politely while apparently thinking, "Is it time for a kiss?"

 

Ben's interactions with the women seemed like "real dates" to me, dates that could have happened outside the Bachelor world and which would have led to another one.  Ben seems to have a very unusual ability to build relationships with different kinds of people--and not seeming fake or "put on" in the process.  

 

I hope they let him travel to great places this year. If so, he might give them the best bachelor of the series (better than Firestone and Grant or the oddly popular Lowe).       

Edited January 20, 2016 by Padma

[Lemons]

I'm a soccer mom. Early (okay, mid) thirties, SAHM, drive a mini van, the whole bit. I'm white and Christian.

 

It's interesting that you mentioned your religion.  Where I'm from, you can go for years knowing people and not know their religion.

 

I think at this point some of the other women are being judged by their words and actions, not their descriptors. 

[PTVjones]

Did I hear some of the women in the house complaining about Jubilee being in her room sleeping after her date with Ben? Was there a part of that conversation I missed? All I thought when I heard that was ok she's sleeping after a long day, what was she supposed to have done? If that were me I probably would have done the same thing. I would never come back and gush about what a great time I had, I'd be afraid I'd sound like I was gloating...although I'd never go on this show, so what do I know? I'm also quite uncomfortable with all these accusations of racism. Amber ambushes Jubilee, she's being a mean girl; would it have been "racist" if it were a white girl the producers chose to do said ambush? The "soccer mom" comments really baffle me. Kaitlyn, for example, is white as white can be, I wouldn't exactly confuse her with a soccer mom.

It is certainly debatable whether or not the commentary made towards Jubilee has racist undertones. I think whenever someone of color on TV gets a negative edit or is shown in an undesirable way, sometimes "racist" is an easy word to throw around to explain why a person is being portrayed that way. Considering the typecasting of The Bachelor over the past years, there have been plenty of outlier cast members that are not black. It's simply the nature of this show. Althoughthe "soccer mom" commentary was definitely loaded. 

 

However I will say this, colorism is very much a real thing. Intra-community racism is very prevalent in the black, Latino, Indian, or really any ethnic group that has gone through colonization. While what Amber did may not be termed as a racism, I would argue that Amber is self aware enough to recognize any perceived advantages she may have being lighter skinned than Jubilee, and may capitalize on that. Clearly this backfired on her, however whether consciously or subconsciously, I wouldn't put is past her.

[Canada]

Exactly.

 

I thought making assumptions about people on TV who we've never met was the whole purpose of message boards???  Nay, the internet!!?

 

ETA - sorry, I thought that would quote Pixie Chicken's comment too.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Canada

[Pixie Chicken]

It's interesting that you mentioned your religion. Where I'm from, you can go for years knowing people and not know their religion.

I think at this point some of the other women are being judged by their words and actions, not their descriptors.

I mentioned it because upthread, there was some talk that soccer mom was code for "white middle class Christian woman." I happen to be someone who ticks all those boxes, but it's not the entirety of who I am.

That's the double standard. If it's wrong to look at Jubilee and make assumptions, then why is it okay to look at the others and say, "Stepford Wife"?

Jubilee may well be interesting and complex, but that's because of who she is, not BECAUSE she's a POC, or in spite of it.

Some people, like Amber and Olivia, are being judged for their actions, and rightly so. But there are others that are still "generic blonde, likely a Stepford Wife."

[JudyObscure]

I thought making assumptions about people on TV who we've never met was the whole purpose of message boards???  Nay, the internet!!?

So did I, Canada, so did I.

I liked Jubilee and her complexity this week, but next week I may see a different side of her and change my mind.  If so, I'd like to think I could pick her apart from head to literal toe, as I've been doing to Olivia and Lace for the past three weeks.  If not, if the only proper way to speak of a reality show contestant who happens to have dark skin is in a gushing fan-girl  tone, then I'll just have to pretend they aren't even there and that's a different, sad sort of ism for sure.

[Mabinogia]

If Kaitlyn taught me anything it is that my favorite can easily become my least favorite in a heartbeat. For all I know, at the end of this I will adore Olivia and loathe Jubilee. Right now, I doubt it, but who knows. I surely didn't expect to see any kind of self awareness from Lace and she actually stepped away from the cameras and constant drinking.

And when I say things on here like I hate Amber or whatever, I don't actually hate her. I don't know her. I hate the character Amber and the show have presented on TV. Her narrative is as a desperate, pathetic mean girl who lashes out at anyone who is getting what she wants but won't actually go after. I don't care if production is keeping her from talking to Ben or encouraged her to attack Jubilee. She signed the contract that said they could portray her any way they wanted so she pretty much asked for it, as did they all. Fair game I say.

The only fun of this show is coming on here and being bitchy about these half fictionalized fame whores.

[kia112]

But sometimes, it's really not.

 

Says...who?  Which is my whole point.

 

One of my favorite moments was Jami going on about how she now knows she can never expect anything from...humans...again after this experience.  So she's just done with mankind now?  OK girl.  I got a huge laugh out of that.

[Lemons]

I mentioned it because upthread, there was some talk that soccer mom was code for "white middle class Christian woman." I happen to be someone who ticks all those boxes, but it's not the entirety of who I am.

That's the double standard. If it's wrong to look at Jubilee and make assumptions, then why is it okay to look at the others and say, "Stepford Wife"?

 

 

 I know why you mentioned it, I'm not criticizing it.  I haven't seen all of the Bachelor seasons, but they do tend to cast the same women over and over.  And then they throw in a few "outspoken" or "quirky" ones to make it interesting.  And then add 1 or 2 token minorities who don't have a chance because they cast the same type of men over and over.  The type of man who wants one just like his mom at home in the mid-west.  They never mix it up. 

[Padma]

I mentioned it because upthread, there was some talk that soccer mom was code for "white middle class Christian woman." I happen to be someone who ticks all those boxes, but it's not the entirety of who I am.

That's the double standard. If it's wrong to look at Jubilee and make assumptions, then why is it okay to look at the others and say, "Stepford Wife"?

Jubilee may well be interesting and complex, but that's because of who she is, not BECAUSE she's a POC, or in spite of it.

Some people, like Amber and Olivia, are being judged for their actions, and rightly so. But there are others that are still "generic blonde, likely a Stepford Wife."

I'm the one who offered my idea of what was meant on this show by the use of "soccer mom". (And I've been one, too--even with the SUV!--but don't fit the description I gave. Which was my point.  I wasn't stereotyping "soccer moms", but I thought whoever said it(?) was stereotyping. To me, there were definitely racial assumptions behind the idea that Jubileh wouldn't fit into Ben's world as an interracial family.) 

 

I haven't seen anyone stereotype the women here as "generic blonde, likely a Stepford wife." The show does often cast some women who are pretty/beautiful, seem a bit shallow, and--at least from what we're allowed to see--don't seem unusually deep or intelligent even when they have good educations.

 

True that impressions of someone can change from "I love/hate her!" to the exact opposite in a week. Lace already showed a bit of that. It would be a big surprise, though, if it happens with Olivia or Jubileh (and I kind of hope it doesn't. It's nice to have a likeable, interesting African American "contender" for a change.)

[ByTor]

Says...who?  Which is my whole point.

Says the people who don't mean it that way, which is my whole point :)

Back on topic, aka the show. The previews show requisite crying, requisite woman feeling like she is going to pass out...I wonder if they're going to do something REALLY unique and have a woman who was sent home return!

Edited January 20, 2016 by ByTor

[Mu Shu]

Can we get back to discussing the Bachelor? I'm full up on who is or isn't a soccer mom type and code talk. Both are assumptions.

[Bugs Meany]

One of my favorite moments was Jami going on about how she now knows she can never expect anything from...humans...again after this experience.  So she's just done with mankind now?  OK girl.  I got a huge laugh out of that.

 

No one who says "awko taco" deserves to find love.

[leighdear]

As far as what the Bachelor's want, I think that with the exception of Sean Lowe, the most recent ones just wanted attention and a hot girl to bang.  Jake Pavelka?  Brad Womack? Ben Flajnik? Juan Pablo Galvais?  Chris Soules?   Lookin' for goodies, not mom's home cooking.  

[Canada]

Says the people who don't mean it that way, which is my whole point :)

Back on topic, aka the show. The previews show requisite crying, requisite woman feeling like she is going to pass out...I wonder if they're going to do something REALLY unique and have a woman who was sent home return!

 

 

I feel like there's already been a lot of crying this season.  I mean, there's always crying on this show, but I feel like it started really early this season.  Caila's little breakdown this episode is a case in point.  You've barely been there a couple of days and you're already sobbing and getting all squeaky??  Man, I hope Kleenex is a sponsor this season.

[NaughtyKitty]

Did I hear some of the women in the house complaining about Jubilee being in her room sleeping after her date with Ben? Was there a part of that conversation I missed? All I thought when I heard that was ok she's sleeping after a long day, what was she supposed to have done? If that were me I probably would have done the same thing. I would never come back and gush about what a great time I had

 

IMHO, the issue was not that Jubilee was sleeping, it was that she was at the house at all.  They were all expecting for her to not get a rose and therefore not be in the house the next morning

 

I don't see her F1 (a little too rough around the edges) I do actually like her more than I thought I would.  And I dislike Amber more than I thought I would.

 

I am really enjoying this season.  I like Ben as a bachelor and I Leurve looking at him (until  I remember that I could technically be his mother--ew) But I always had a crush on Peter Brady and Seth McFarlane also

[WhoAmIReally]

As far as what the Bachelor's want, I think that with the exception of Sean Lowe, the most recent ones just wanted attention and a hot girl to bang.  Jake Pavelka?  Brad Womack? Ben Flajnik? Juan Pablo Galvais?  Chris Soules?   Lookin' for goodies, not mom's home cooking.  

 

I think Sean Lowe was the biggest famewhore of all of them.  He and his "hot girl" wifey go to the opening of an envelope and continue to be otherwise unemployed, as far as I know. 

[ByTor]

IMHO, the issue was not that Jubilee was sleeping, it was that she was at the house at all. They were all expecting for her to not get a rose and therefore not be in the house the next morning

Duh, now I feel stupid. I do remember talk about her being at the house...I took it as they expected her to stay with Ben overnight! Thanks for clearing that up!

[jette]

I do like Ben - but his dinner with Jubilee smacked of way too much producer machination and seemed more like interrogation than conversation. To me, she clearly didn't want to go into as much detail as he was urging her to do. The "Take your time" and "What kind of guilt?" as she was talking about losing her entire family seemed so very pushy. Then once the producers got their sound bite, Ben actually asks Jubilee: "Do you understand what you have done in life to bring you here?" Like, you've cheated death in Haiti and possibly, in war, to bring you to...The Bachelor?

 

Really?

 

I hope all that was because Jubilee is seriously being considered for the next B'ette!

 

[leighdear]

I hope all that was because Jubilee is seriously being considered for the next B'ette!

It was producer-induced drama mining, pure and simple.  I don't believe it was instigated by either one.  

[kia112]

No one who says "awko taco" deserves to find love.

 

Her saltiness at not getting a rose really tickled me.  "I thought we had something!" Why, girl?  Have we seen him talking to her?  Truthfully, I just figured out her name this week.

[wovenloaf]

I do like Ben - but his dinner with Jubilee smacked of way too much producer machination and seemed more like interrogation than conversation. To me, she clearly didn't want to go into as much detail as he was urging her to do. The "Take your time" and "What kind of guilt?" as she was talking about losing her entire family seemed so very pushy. Then once the producers got their sound bite, Ben actually asks Jubilee: "Do you understand what you have done in life to bring you here?" Like, you've cheated death in Haiti and possibly, in war, to bring you to...The Bachelor?

 

Really?

 

I hope all that was because Jubilee is seriously being considered for the next B'ette!

 

Yeah I also noticed how awkward he was being in that scene too...I was hoping it was just bad editing. But it seems just as likely that Ben was being weird. It did have an awkward interrogation vibe the way we saw it. I always hate the way he stares at people with...I don't know, faux concern, or something, on his face. His face kind of annoys me in general, ha.

 

I thought he seemed off on the whole Jubilee date though...like his eyes looked red and watery, and he looked super tired, and seemed generally spaced out. I was thinking that he was just too drunk the whole time. But then once he said the thing about his 2 family friends dying...I think that date might have been the same day he found out about that? So maybe he was just upset. The show was trying to make it seem like he found out the day after the date...but they are always fudging days for purposes of the show, so who knows. 

[Mu Shu]

No one who says "awko taco" deserves to find love.

Yeah, but she redeemed herself with "Jeez Louise". I think Jami was adorable.

[backformore]

As far as what the Bachelor's want, I think that with the exception of Sean Lowe, the most recent ones just wanted attention and a hot girl to bang.  Jake Pavelka?  Brad Womack? Ben Flajnik? Juan Pablo Galvais?  Chris Soules?   Lookin' for goodies, not mom's home cooking.  

AND - the ego trip of having a room full of women squeal when you walk in, tell each other that you're the most handsome man in the world, and compete for 5 minutes of your time.  It's no wonder few relationships work out from this show.  During the courtship, the man has ALL the power, the ability to bestow a tiny bit of attention on a woman who feels SO lucky that he looked at her, is dying to be chosen for a date, a kiss, a rose.   How can a couple go from that to a normal, give-and-take, equal relationship where they respect each other?   The chosen woman is supposed to feel like Cinderella at the ball, can she go from that to honesty and a mutual, equal partnership? 

 

I think Sean Lowe was the biggest famewhore of all of them.  He and his "hot girl" wifey go to the opening of an envelope and continue to be otherwise unemployed, as far as I know. 

Yes, they were on celebrity Wife Swap, where he looked like a controlling asshole. Then on to Marriage Boot Camp, where he has said he wants to redeem himself.  By pretending to have marital problems?  If they truly wanted help, there are actual , real, licensed THERAPISTS to go to.  The kind who keep your problems confidential, not the kind who make you do lame-ass exercises on TV to humiliate you.  Sean and Catherine are making some really dumb anything-for-a-buck choices. 

[leighdear]

And just wait til the little SeanCat is born.  I imagine we'll get even more coverage of those two!  

 

I think the edit Jubilee is being given is a dead giveaway that she won't be the new Bachelorette if she's not Ben's final girl.  None of the other female leads have ever been give such an uneven, mercurial and angst-ridden story.  Just my opinion, of course.  

[TheFinalRose]

Sean admits that he takes these opportunities because he gets paid pretty well for doing pretty much nothing. Why not? But I agree they look kind of stupid and desperate. I am sure they are going to film that baby coming out, if the price is right.

 

Guys, we forgot to mention that Olivia was also accused of having bad breath!!! That kind of got lost behind her cankles confession, but I think ugly toes and bad breath are possibly the real deal-breakers where Ben is concerned, haha.

 

 

[catrice2]

First I want to address the main reason why this show has always disturbed me.  The idea that any woman should be "grateful" for a date from a man is unsettling.  You can be happy, elated, excited, but I have never felt GRATEFUL for a date from anyone, and the idea that a group, not just one, but a GROUP of women feel that gratitude is the emotion you should feel when a man asks you on a date, speaks volumes to me. Should she have fallen on the floor and kissed his shoes, or wrote an essay thanking him in 1000 ways?  Similarly I was annoyed with Jubilee sitting around moping about why he wouldn't choose her. 

 

 I watched this show today and parts of another episode to be able to comment fairly from my own perspective.  From what I have read here and elsewhere, I can see why they have never had a minority in the franchise.  People's emotions and experiences are just so different and it is obviously hard for people to,  with something Jubillee herself said, "understand what they don't know, or what is different, or whatever she said.  Something about being afraid of what they don't know.

 

 Only those girls know what is really in their mind or hearts, but I think a lot of what was said and done comes from being young and not having a lot of experience, not from being racist. It also came from a place of insecurity because they have put themselves in this crazy position and are not getting attention.  For some, yes, I do think there was an element of "how could he possibly be attracted to HER," but that could be because of the tattoos, her perceived attitude, or her race.  I find it sad, however, that there appeared to be not ONE girl that didn't engage in that to some degree, if not Jubilee then Olivia. Unfortunately for Ben, I would hope he would have a more mature woman to choose from because he seems to be mature to a degree, or as mature as you can be at that age. 

 

I do, however, think the producers were involved in stirring the pot, and in making sure that it was the other minority contestants that appeared to be the most aggressive for fear of it being perceived as coming from a place of racism. The problem with these type of shows is that they edit things to provoke feelings from fans, and then people feel as if they know things they don't.  It was hard to say if Jubilee was pulling away from the group, or if she was just wisely feeling the vibes and opting not to engage.  I don't know if Jubilee had not interacted with the others in previous episodes. My friend said she was sociable, but I did not see for myself.  But then again, everyone has their own definition of that as well.

 

When Ben sends her home, I hope people can fairly see that it is just because the attraction was not as strong as it was for others, or that the manufactured situation didn't allow them to connect. If you agree to be the Bachelor, you've already agreed to representing the franchise in a way that they guide or dictate. When they cast the minority contestants they know enough about the Bachelor and the women to know if they are casting someone that has a serious chance. 

 

 Complicated or not, many of these women are just not emotionally mature enough to handle this type of exposure. I blame the casting people, because it is clear that Jubilee is dealing with something and was not a "good fit," for the type of show that this is. I have no doubt, however, that the producers will give it some crazy edit, or maybe she will snap from the pressure and do something crazy that leaves him no choice.  I hope that she has the sense that Lace did but I doubt seriously they will let her go out with dignity. 

 

That being said, we all are different and see different things. I can't compare seasons or previous dates, but I saw the real awkwardness that sometimes comes with first dates, but to me that does not mean that it was a better or worse date than the one that he had before.  As others said I did get a vibe that some of it was producer driven, but he said something about continuing a previous conversation, so maybe not. Some people saw awkward and uncomfortable, I saw tentative and a "feeling out" of each other. 

 

I would imagine being in the military it is possible that she has interacted more with men than women, and that can be problematic in this type of situation. Some women that are with men a lot have a hard time relating to a group of women.  Although I would love for a show on television to honestly show an interracial romance in a positive light, the Bachelor is not that show. People are there for a fairytale and the idea of having a "dream" wedding or romance on television. To that degree, Jubilee is correct, Ben, or more importantly, the franchise,doesn't want "complex," they want a fictionalized idea of true love, with the end being a white dress and the perfect parents, siblings, hometown, etc. 

 

So people say why are you watching?  Because I will admit I was intrigued by the idea that after all these years they would show a Bachelor openly expressing more than a passing interest in a "token" contestant.  After seeing the drama that ensued, I know for sure that she won't last, but it will be done in a way that makes her look bad and him still look like a "nice guy."    I will say too that I looked at some of the previous Bachelors and I KNOW people are only watching this for entertainment, as many of them were no great prize! 

 

I felt sad because from what I saw there was not ONE of those women that conducted themselves well.  If he is a sincere person (as much as you can be on this type of show) then he is just going to settle for the romance and idea of it all, because none of those women seemed genuine, confident or mature. I don't know many decent men that want to be with a woman who sits around gossiping with other women and being mean and insecure. 

 

I just hope that if some of the women came on the show for fame or exposure that they get what they wanted out of it. 

Edited January 21, 2016 by catrice2

[lavenderpenguin]

Juelia had that same type of conversation with Chris Soules, about her husband that committed suicide.  Kelsey also had that kind of conversation with Chris Soules about her husband that dropped dead.  JJ had a serious and self-incriminating conversation with Kaitlyn about cheating on his then-pregnant wife.  Sean listened to Catherine describe watching her friend die at camp.  

 

Difficult, serious and painful conversations happen every season.  And the lead has to stay and hear them even if they aren't on an actual date with that person.  They have no option to run & hide.  

 

Ben handled it well but so have the others. It's the rule, not the exception.  They would never air a poor reaction.  

 

I'd distinguish Jubilee's date from the conversations initiated by Juelia, Kelsey, etc. in that those happened under strange, time-constrained situations (I think Juelia pulled Chris aside during a pool party for five minutes and shared her husband's suicide), where it felt more like a plea to keep them around because of their tragic stories as opposed to honest sharing. Jubilee was on a one-on-one date when she truly opened up (she mentioned her adoption earlier, but that was in the context of gushing about Ben's charity work in Honduras) and was seemingly encouraged by Ben to do so.

 

I think that's why it felt so much more real and serious -- I hate to say it, and I'm sure there were producers behind it, but the delivery in Juelia, Kelsey, etc. cases (can't speak for the others because I don't remember them) almost cheapened what they were sharing because they just threw out the information before the lead really needed to hear it. With Jubilee and JJ, it felt like the right timing and occasion to share that information, so it felt more serious as opposed to a gimmick/plea for sympathy.

 

Ben's interactions with the women seemed like "real dates" to me, dates that could have happened outside the Bachelor world and which would have led to another one.  Ben seems to have a very unusual ability to build relationships with different kinds of people--and not seeming fake or "put on" in the process.     

 

Ben is definitely a good Bachelor, and has much better interpersonal skills than the most recent Bachelors (Chris S., Juan Pablo). He continually impresses me with how graceful he is under pressure -- the situation with Jubilee was a wonderful example, and certainly a situation that would've stumped someone like Chris. But he diffused the argument so well, he defended Jubilee while being sensitive to Amber's "concerns" (if you can call them that).

 

I mentioned it because upthread, there was some talk that soccer mom was code for "white middle class Christian woman." I happen to be someone who ticks all those boxes, but it's not the entirety of who I am.

That's the double standard. If it's wrong to look at Jubilee and make assumptions, then why is it okay to look at the others and say, "Stepford Wife"?

Jubilee may well be interesting and complex, but that's because of who she is, not BECAUSE she's a POC, or in spite of it.

Some people, like Amber and Olivia, are being judged for their actions, and rightly so. But there are others that are still "generic blonde, likely a Stepford Wife."

 

I understand what you mean and we aren't defined by the categories we fit into. That said, it cannot be ignored that race, religion, perceived socio-economic background not only influences who we are (because it influences the experiences we have), but also how others react and interact with us. To pretend otherwise is to deny the reality that such "categories" color how we experience the world and how the world experiences us.

Edited January 21, 2016 by lavenderpenguin

[violet and green]

If someone said to me, "I'm more complicated than any of you are," I'd take that as an insult. She might as well have told the others that they're all more simple-minded than she is.

 

I find that a strange misreading of the word 'complicated'. So you'd be insulted if someone said they were more fucked up than you, or had more baggage than you? I really don't see 'complicated' as being in any way related to intelligence, or lack thereof.

[catrice2]

Jubilee goes home because Charles Barkley says so: 

 

They’ve got no chance,” he said. “They’re like the black girl on the Bachelor — they’ve got no chance.”

[backformore]

First I want to address the main reason why this show has always disturbed me.  The idea that any woman should be "grateful" for a date from a man is unsettling.  You can be happy, elated, excited, but I have never felt GRATEFUL for a date from anyone, and the idea that a group, not just one, but a GROUP of women feel that gratitude is the emotion you should feel when a man asks you on a date, speaks volumes to me. Should she have fallen on the floor and kissed his shoes, or wrote an essay thanking him in 1000 ways?  Similarly I was annoyed with Jubilee sitting around moping about why he wouldn't choose her.

 

Right - and it is psychological manipulation.   These women are in a mansion.  But with no tv, no internet access, magazines, etc.   All they have is each other and food and booze, and waiting for the date card.   There is only ONE man who will pay attention to them, he is their only ticket out of the house and doing something other than hair, nails, makeup with the other women.   SInce he is the ONLY one, he becomes the DESIRED man.   So when the date card comes, they are reduced to a group of squealing, giggling, "I hope he picks me"  adolescents.   I don't think any of them are actually like this in "real life".  

I find it fascinating from a psycho-social perspective.  

[Blakeston]

I find that a strange misreading of the word 'complicated'. So you'd be insulted if someone said they were more fucked up than you, or had more baggage than you? I really don't see 'complicated' as being in any way related to intelligence, or lack thereof.

The opposite of complicated is simple. I don't think it's such a big stretch. Going from complicated to "fucked up" is a much bigger stretch, IMO.

 

Especially considering the context in which Jubilee said it. I really don't think she was saying, "I'm starting to suspect that Ben doesn't like fucked-up women, and that concerns me."

 

(Also, i also don't think there's a chance in hell that Jubilee thinks none of the other women are fucked up.)

[Padma]

I don't know what she meant by "complicated" either, but I didn't think she was complimenting herself compared with the others. I thought it was showing her insecurity, the tragic loss of her family, being adopted, being an immigrant, and as a reault feeling emotionally more messed up and not always saying or doing the "expected" thing (or even the appropriate thing) for the situation.

Or, she might have meant "complicated" as in being moody and needing some quiet time unlike "normal" women Ben would like who she thinks are ev even-keel or cheerful and make new friends easily. Whatever she meant, it seemed he did think she was complicated and different. I liked how he found this intriguing. Although he and Lauren B were adorable together, they were also somewhat bland. It was fun to see how Jubileh brought out a different side of him and how receptive he was to that kind of mutual growth in a relationship.

[yorklee2]

I am really curious about a lot of comments I've read that says the ladies aren't allowed any media inside the mansion. What?? Do they have to be sequestered like a jury or something? According to different posters they're not allowed tv, cell phones, internet, books, music, etc. I'm assuming if there was a emergency the families have a number they can call to reach the women. I can see no internet because of the potential to leak information but tv, books and music? Come on are you kidding me? How could those possibly cause any harm? It's like they're prisoners. Is this some kind of psychological mind game the show is playing to make the women more needy and complacent? Who would agree to something like this? I can see situations where something that rigorous might be needed. Like the military for example. But for a tv show?? That's seriously messed up.

Edited January 21, 2016 by yorklee2

[backformore]

I am really curious about a lot of comments I've read that says the ladies aren't allowed any media inside the mansion. What?? Do they have to be sequestered like a jury or something? According to different posters they're not allowed tv, cell phones, internet, books, music, etc. I'm assuming if there was a emergency the families have a number they can call to reach the women. I can see no internet because of the potential to leak information but tv, books and music? Come on are you kidding me? How could those possibly cause any harm? It's like they're prisoners. Is this some kind of psychological mind game the show is playing to make the women more needy and complacent? Who would agree to something like this? I can see situations where something that rigorous might be needed. Like the military for example. But for a tv show?? That's seriously messed up.

Its a TV show, they have cameras there, shooting all the time.   Nobody wants to see a bunch of women reading and watching TV.  The producers need the women to make bitchy comments about each other, to have alliances, form cliques, talk behind each other's backs, sing, dance, and most of all - get drunk.  Because that's what makes for good TV. 

And, yes, it's a mind game.  In a real life situation, if any of these women were at a party, and saw a guy like Ben, and he was talking or kissing another woman, what would a normal woman do? She wouldn't sit and pout and whine, or interrupt him to talk to him alone.    She'd look around to see if there were any other interesting guys around.  But on Bachelor, there's only one prize, only one winner.  everyone else loses.   As a result of the mind games, you end up with several women who barely know Ben, being convinced that they want to marry him.   In real life, would any of them be ready to accept a proposal from a guy who is someone else at the same time?   No, in real life, you would date exclusively for a time before getting engaged.   You don't compete with the other "girlfriend"  to see who gets the diamond ring.

 

And it works.  every season. 

[himela]

Juelia had that same type of conversation with Chris Soules, about her husband that committed suicide.  Kelsey also had that kind of conversation with Chris Soules about her husband that dropped dead.  JJ had a serious and self-incriminating conversation with Kaitlyn about cheating on his then-pregnant wife.  Sean listened to Catherine describe watching her friend die at camp.  

 

Difficult, serious and painful conversations happen every season.  And the lead has to stay and hear them even if they aren't on an actual date with that person.  They have no option to run & hide.  

 

Ben handled it well but so have the others. It's the rule, not the exception.  They would never air a poor reaction.  

I just feel all these dramatic stories are told only for the sake of it (dead husband, suicide, sick dad etc) while Jubilee had not planned to tell him all this, it just came out. The producers always know which girls have some dramatic story waiting to be told but I'm sure they had no idea with Jubilee. In fact it was not "a story", it was a confession from the heart.

[yorklee2]

Its a TV show, they have cameras there, shooting all the time.   Nobody wants to see a bunch of women reading and watching TV.  The producers need the women to make bitchy comments about each other, to have alliances, form cliques, talk behind each other's backs, sing, dance, and most of all - get drunk.  Because that's what makes for good TV. 

And, yes, it's a mind game.  In a real life situation, if any of these women were at a party, and saw a guy like Ben, and he was talking or kissing another woman, what would a normal woman do? She wouldn't sit and pout and whine, or interrupt him to talk to him alone.    She'd look around to see if there were any other interesting guys around.  But on Bachelor, there's only one prize, only one winner.  everyone else loses.   As a result of the mind games, you end up with several women who barely know Ben, being convinced that they want to marry him.   In real life, would any of them be ready to accept a proposal from a guy who is someone else at the same time?   No, in real life, you would date exclusively for a time before getting engaged.   You don't compete with the other "girlfriend"  to see who gets the diamond ring.

 

And it works.  every season. 

Wow. I had always wondered why any sane woman would go on a show like this but now even more so. Surely during the casting process they are told and are aware of these restrictions which makes me even more so question why they are willing to go through this. Now I see why so many call them fame whores and such. It's about the only thing that makes sense. It's ironic though that as far as I'm aware none of these contestants (men or women) have gotten any legitimate fame from being on this show. They are minor celebrities in a sense in the bachelor nation but it seems if fame is their goal they're kind of defeating their purpose since most are known for making fools of themselves. Maybe a small percentage naively think they can find real love but it makes more sense that many are just treating it as a lark.

 

Speaking of the real world some of these women have good career jobs. I can't imagine them asking for leave to go on the Bachelor. I'm sure in Olivia's case she was told no and she just quit to come on. Makes me wonder how many have done that.

[himela]

From what is my understanding the people who have participated in The Bachelor or The Bachelorette become members of "The Bachelolr Family" and they can join parties with all the other participants, they can be invited to talk shows, tv shows, interviews, celebrity nights and so on. I do find it cheap but I'm thinking that I don't find it THAT crazy if you are a young extrovert person (20-25) who likes to meet people and be in the center of attention. Everything on tv is being forgotten very soon anyway.

[ByTor]

According to different posters they're not allowed tv, cell phones, internet, books, music, etc.

I wonder, then, whose cell phone Amanda used when she told her kids about the barrettes Ben made.

[nutty1]

I think they give their cell phones to contestants to call their kids, but then get them right back. It is a true mind game they play with them. No TV, internet, magazines etc, PLUS plenty of booze flowing. They have that formula down pat for great drama. 

I think a psychological study of all that would be fascinating.