S06.E02: Season 6, Episode 2

[SusanSunflower]

any "sane" Edith would have decamped for London, even before Gregson left for Germany. She could have had a small flat in the same building ... or conveniently near by to Gregson and the magazine ... I'm surprised that Gregson didn't insist ... but Fellowes would have never allowed...

We saw so little of Gregson and it was so very long ago ... he's just a shadow of a memory (I seem to recall him as good looking ... a lot like a younger Strallan)

Edited January 13, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[ZoloftBlob]

Maybe I just never noticed before, but Thomas is vampire pale. Is he even allowed out during the day?

 

Ugh he is just English descent. I admit to a certain sensitivity since I have heard "Is something wrong with you" and "are you albino?" all my life but really....He and Michelle Dockery for that matter are just Celtic Brits. As I explained to my drill sergeant in the Army after I was forced to scrub my face of all the make up I was supposedly wearing, sometimes white people are this white. There's nothing wrong with him and if you knew how irritating the vampire joke gets once you're not in high school, you might reconsider it.

[LittleIggy]

A question: who dresses (I roll my eyes just typing that) Edith? She doesn't have her own lady's maid. Did a single ever get her own maid?

[Amethyst]

Rather too late, but I'd appreciate it greatly if Thomas' character were written consistently. I liked Mrs. Baxter saying, "Why won't you let me be fond of you?" She has an old connection to him and proved to him that she genuinely cares, yet he still rebuffs her. It would seem that the scenes where she insisted he go to the doctor would set up a better relationship between them, but no, we're given this nasty Thomas who can't be trusted not to molest Andrew in a dark corner, oh but isn't he lovely with the Earl's grandchildren?

 

Yeah, definitely too late, but I really wish they would explore the Thomas/Baxter dynamic more.  Baxter is the only person who knew Thomas before he came to Downton, and even if it was "He was an asshole as a kid and he's an asshole now" would be interesting.  The fact that he apparently grew up in Ripon (or nearby) and still has family there surprised me.  I've been thinking his folks were dead all this time.

 

I get that a lot of this is just a defense mechanism for Thomas, but some depth would be nice.  The events in season 3 were a big turning point but he still acts (mostly) the same as before.  He still treats Bates like crap despite the man saving his career, and others in the house (like Mrs. Patmore mentioned) are still looking out for him.  Thomas can still be a sarcastic asshole without railroading over others to do it.

[SusanSunflower]

regarding the Downton pallor: for many characters, it seems to come and go depending on the make-up department... one season it was pronounced. I think it's a matter of continuity and evenness since the actors' natural skin tone vary with the weather and the amount of outdoor activity (and vacation time) they enjoy. One season everyone was grossly porcelain. It was noticeable. I think it was shortly after the season of the very.bad.wigs.

The actor playing Thomas may have immaculate perfect pale skin in real life, or he may be pale enough that, particularly in HD, his average sometimes spotty complexion looks dreadful ... I'd guess they applied the "white mask" at some point and found the effect striking and kept it. HD must be a nightmare for make-up artists and actors alike.

Edited January 13, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Llywela]

A question: who dresses (I roll my eyes just typing that) Edith? She doesn't have her own lady's maid. Did a single ever get her own maid?

No, as a single woman Edith does not have her own ladies maid (although I guess she could hire one for herself if she wanted). Before Mary's marriage, Anna was the head house maid who took care of all three sisters as an extra duty. When Mary married, Anna was promoted and became her ladies maid. After that, the new head house maid (the oft-mentioned, never seen Madge) started looking after Edith and Sybil, again as an extra duty, not as dedicated ladies maid. But with the staff shrinking, and wardrobes changing, I think Edith must mostly look after herself now (with perhaps a bit of help with her hair).

[Mrsjumbo]

I agree. Maybe I am just taking more notice of everything this year. In the scene where Daisy comes to talk to Cora, Cora is sitting on a chair with embroidery in her hand. Everything about the scene is harmonious - the lighting, the pastel colors in the room, Cora's dress, the room you can see through the open door. It was like a painting, just lovely. Made up for some of the unlovely actions and events (looking at you, Edith).

I agree. Everything is so gorgeous this season.

[Andorra]

The funny thing is that Rob James Collier doesn't look white at all in real life. He has a healthy skin color. Not tanned but he's not that light skinned by nature. I think Michelle Dockery is. 

[Roseanna]

These ideas do not mean that I find Edith's behavior less despicable. She used Mrs. Drewe very poorly and selfishly. And although she was spared the grief of the Swiss family when she removed Marigold from their care, she was not spared the grief of Mrs. Drewe. But Edith is selfish and competitive and impulsive, frankly. Had she been less impulsive she may not have become pregnant in the first place. 

 

In general she panics, lashes out, and then cannot follow through with her initial impulse...simply because she hasn't thought that far ahead. 

 

It's true that Edith's actions seem impulsive, but it's also due to the plot. If she had made a decision and sticked to it, it would be no plot. (cf. Matthew and Mary's love story).

 

However, I don't think that she slept with Gregson on impulsive (as Mary did on Pamuk - quite contrary of her character). Of course she didn't go to his flat consciously to do it, but after dating so long she became more and more willing to do it and it would inevitably happen sooner and later. 

 

As Edith was an inexperienced girl and Gregson had long wanted to bed her, it was his duty to took care of contraception. And maybe he did, but we must remember that it wasn't at all sure at that time. In any case, it was a chance that Edith became pregnant during one night whereas Mary didn't.

[Roseanna]

Sometimes I think Anna simply enjoys being a martyr.  So long as her life appears miserable, she can be the victim and then bask in the concern of everyone else.   

 

Originally Anna wasn't a martyr, on the contrary she championed bravely and tirelessly for Bates. But is also happens irl that after many misfortunes a person begins to hope that everything will go wrong.

 

What annoys me in Anna nowadays is that she is too selfless. It's never her feelings and needs that matter but those of Bates. After her rape she was before all concerned that Bates wouldn't found out and kill the offender. Now she is mostly concerned that Bates can't be completely happy if she can't bear him a bunch of children. It's that kind of overly selflessness that's often connected with constant whining whereas a real martyr bears his fate without complaining.

 

Let's compare with Mr Mason. He lost several children when they were small. He lost his wife and his only living child William was killed in the war. After that he asked William's wife Daisy to become his daughter. Now he has lost his tenant farm which his family had had in generations. Never once has he complained about his unhappy fate but always made best of his life. 

[HoodlumSheep]

Oh look, didn't things work out just perfectly? Mrs. Drewe snaps and lose her marbles which conveniently leaves an opening for mr. mason to snatch up. Oh joy.

The argument between Carson and Hughes is exactly why I don't like them together romantically. They just don't fit. And it's just a dumb conflict. even my brother who watches it with us thinks that the writing shows how they (or is it just him in this case) don't know what to do with the characters this season. A lot of them are just floating around.

Liked how Mary is taking charge and was so proud of her pigs.

Wish they'd just tell mary about Marigold too.

Feel ever so slightly bad for thomas because I think he just wants to be friends with andy, at least. But then i remember it's thomas and i just laugh at his "not lucky" statement because how many times has he been on the brink of losing his job and he miraculously gets to keep it?

I'm enjoying the war between violet and isobel. It's quite entertaining.

If mrs. Hughes doesn't want the wedding at downton, then why doesn't she tell mary herself? Carson obviously can't handle the job, so i don't see what's stopping mrs. Hughes from doing it.

This is the first episode where I miss tom.

My brother and I are hoping for a murder spree to end the final season. Just for some drama. We're the kind of people that wanted harry potter to end with the wand duel causing everyone and everything to pretty much be vaporized like in lotr when the ring was destroyed.

Basically, it's tradition that one of the Bates murders someone every season, thomas looks like he could crack any second (maybe he'll off carson? Or mrs. Hughes might off carson herself), that last shot of mrs. Drewe made it look like she's about to go on a murdering spree.

Basically, lots of death and it'd still probably be a better ending than what Fellowes has planned.

Edited January 13, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[RedHawk]

Ugh he is just English descent. I admit to a certain sensitivity since I have heard "Is something wrong with you" and "are you albino?" all my life but really....He and Michelle Dockery for that matter are just Celtic Brits. As I explained to my drill sergeant in the Army after I was forced to scrub my face of all the make up I was supposedly wearing, sometimes white people are this white. There's nothing wrong with him and if you knew how irritating the vampire joke gets once you're not in high school, you might reconsider it.

I am also very pale English descent, and I avoid the sun because of how sensitive my skin is. People tell me I need a tan. Shrug, whatever. I don't need skin cancer.

I doubt Robert James-Collier is reading our posts, and if he is, the vampire joke is about his character, not him. Also if he is, I think you're the best actor on the show, Robert! Too bad Fellowes is such a mediocre writer.

I've seen him on interview shows and he does not look as white on those, thus many of us are attributing his extra-paleness on the show to bad makeup.

[Crs97]

Sorry; I wasn't trying to be insensitive to people with pale skin. I, too, am very pale and frequently joke that my old foundation labelled "alabaster" could easily be renamed "vampire." Thomas just looked very different this episode. Did he have red lipstick on? The contrast between his skin and lips stood out this time; he just looked so off to me. I would kill for Mary's complexion.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Crs97

[MakeMeLaugh]

...

My brother and I are hoping for a murder spree to end the final season. Just for some drama. ...that last shot of mrs. Drewe made it look like she's about to go on a murdering spree.

Basically, lots of death and it'd still probably be a better ending than what Fellowes has planned.

I was so hoping sleepy little Marigold had actually been poisoned to death by Mrs Drewe, who would then pull out a carving knife and go after who ever tried to take Marigold from her (I know it was Mr Drewe but more fun if it was Edith). Now there's a plot development for us!

[RedHawk]

I love the pale English complexion, which sadly doesn't love me. I didn't get the fragile evenness, or the rosy cheeks, just the paleness.

Yes, it looked as if Thomas had on lipstick and has in a couple of episodes. I think the makeup person is just getting it wrong with Thomas, Anna, and Mrs. Hughes. They look too artificial.

Thomas looks as of he is wearing theatrical makeup from the 1920s. One of my favorite films is from ~1932 and features an older stage actor whose makeup is noticeably white with obvious red lipstick. It's not like that of the rest of the film's cast and like Thomas' it is distracting at times.

If they're going for a Rudolph Valentino look, well, it's not as if Thomas would have been allowed to wear makeup but I can see him wanting to look like Valentino. I do imagine that Thomas sees Valentino movies and takes him for a role model, maybe even thinks he's secretly gay, because Valentino's masculinity was questioned because his characters were not the typical male type.

I wish we'd get more of a glimpse of Thomas' inner life, and Mrs. Hughes' as well. I like that she would prefer to see herself for just one day as "not a servant" of the mighty Crawleys. Interesting turn of events that she had a sister to support and was going to have to work as long as possible.

[Artymouse]

When Thomas was being interviewed by the butler from the other house, I remember thinking that they had overdone the pale white makeup. He really did look like someone had removed all of his blood.

 

And speaking of Marigold and Mrs. Drewe, I thought it was very suspenseful when Mr. Drewe was going into the house and Marigold was on Mrs. Drewe's lap. I was worried that Mrs. Drewe had killed her. Which, thankfully, may be over the top even for this show.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Originally Anna wasn't a martyr, on the contrary she championed bravely and tirelessly for Bates. But is also happens irl that after many misfortunes a person begins to hope that everything will go wrong.

 

Anna was also sunny and upbeat.  The way she is now, I have my own head canon that she is different because of some kind of post-traumatic stress after the rape.  She really can't talk about it with anybody that we've seen, she worried about her husband afterward rather than herself, and this glum negativity about pregnancy is a continuation of that.  She has to work daily in the place where it happened, it was violent, how could she ever be totally comfortable and her old self there?  Of course, this is never spelled out and Fellowes probably hasn't given it a thought, he's probably only going for a happy ending for her finally. 

[Constantinople]

Edith has the right to live wherever she wants, with her child.

I don't think Edith has the right to live at Downton Abbey and, as far as I know, she doesn't contribute to its upkeep. However, her and Marigold Snow's presence impose additional costs through additional food, laundry,cleaning, hair dressing, etc. (since Edith is the only single woman in the house, again, part of the head housemaid's time will be diverted to doing Edith's hair). Now Edith's cost DA a rent paying tenant.

Perhaps DA's owners -- her father and sister- should stop coddling Edith and tell her to start paying rent or boot her ass into the street.

[kassa]

Originally Anna wasn't a martyr, on the contrary she championed bravely and tirelessly for Bates. But is also happens irl that after many misfortunes a person begins to hope that everything will go wrong.

 

Or they guard against heartbreak in a twisted way by anticipating and meeting it head on, whether it actually will come to pass or not.  By steeling for inevitable disappointment, she’s trying to protect herself (and him).  If he’s going to leave her because of her infertility (despite every signal from him to the contrary) she wants it over and done now. 

 

He needs to give her a good shake and a “do me the courtesy of believing I mean what I say.”

 

I don't think Edith has the right to live at Downton Abbey and, as far as I know, she doesn't contribute to its upkeep.

 

 

Legally, I’m sure she doesn’t, but I assume the way it was done was that unmarried women of their class stayed at home and you were stuck with them, even if you were the heir (if you were lucky and the Dower house were empty you could give them their own place).   But even then you’d be picking up the tab and keeping a whole house open is more expensive than a room and food.  Might be worth it to avoid daily breakfast/lunch/tea/dinner together.

 

Surely Mrs. Hughes and Mr. Carson will merit the same cottage setup as the Bates family, since precedence has been set.  That’s a better gift than a reception in the library.  Then again, given their ages and the walking commute, maybe not.  Maybe a nice double in a distant wing apart from the other servants?  You have to assume they’ve closed vast wings of that mausoleum by now.  Might be worth having a living presence in a lesser used hallway.  Baxter could take up “policing the younger maids’ virtue” duties. At least until she marries Molesly.  Then everybody in the house will be a fresh off the farm teenager, except for Daisy, who will be radicalizing them all.

Edited January 13, 2016 by kassa

[SusanSunflower]

wrt Anna: I think a decade or so of being married to someone she cannot trust with "the truth" because he might kill someone might take the bloom out of one's cheek and the bounce out of one's step ... and if that has ever been addressed, I don't remember it. Bates finding Mary's contraceptives ... Bates' jealous glowering at Green, imho, made Anna Green's target. She may love John Bates, but she fears him, his judgments and his moods ... never addressed.

eta: In fact -- in the bad old days, before divorce as an accepted alternative -- many men ruled their "roost" by intimidation and punishing, and domestic violence was common enough. I thought for a while that Fellowes are developing John Bates as a dangerous and rough-edge character, they might actually be "going there" ... how happy marriages become "dysfunctional" and oppressive -- but no ... no unhappy marriages at Downton, except Shrimpy and Susan and maybe Rose's in-laws (as if anyone cared about them) ...

Edited January 13, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[blackwing]

I don't get the thing with Thomas and New Footman who seems so dull I keep forgetting his name. Oh, looked it up, Andrew. Anyway, perhaps Thomas simply wants to make a male friend among the staff? Someone he didn't have a history with who might not judge him on all the bad behavior he's been caught in in the past. In London he proved to be Andrew's friend, and I don't actually see his efforts with Andrew to be flirty or showing sexual interest. Why does all the staff have to see it that way, almost as if Thomas is a predator, when they know that he and Jimmy became friends? It really bugs me because it wanders close to stereotyping. Thomas is gay so he's interested in screwing any new single man in the house. 

Well, I think he has acquired a "reputation", and I would say that reputation is deserved.  In the first season, he tried to blackmail that duke, his ex-boyfriend.  He also tried to kiss Pamuk.  He's shown himself to be insanely jealous of anyone that he thinks is advancing over him and does his best to cut them down.  He has also tried to blackmail people.  Then there was the thing with Jimmy, which was encouraged by O'Brien, but still.  He continued to pursue him even though there were no signs from Jimmy himself, and went into his room and tried to molest/kiss him while he was sleeping.

 

It's hard to recover from that.  It might be possible if he was a better person, but he's basically a crappy person, so the staff aren't willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.  This just really demonstrates that if you are nice to people, people will be nice to you.  If you treat people like crap, you will get crap back in return.  That's why nobody trusts him around Andy.  Because they have seen it before.

 

 

One of the things that bothers me the most about Carson/Mrs. Hughes is that I still feel that we have seen very little of their "romance".  Even when they are together, they don't act like a couple in love and about to marry.  They act like two people who are getting married because they are both old and don't have anyone, so might as well marry and have someone to live with.  It's almost as if it were a business arrangement.  I don't recall them talking to each other about the kinds of things they like to do, or whatnot.  Maybe it's because they have known each other for decades, but still.  There is never any talk about what interests them.  When they are together, it seems like all they talk about is their disagreement over the wedding, or they talk about work.

[Kat From Jersey]

I hope Thomas stays true to form and lands on his feet.  Throughout the series even at his most manipulative and scheming I have always liked him better than Carson (who may look nicely grandfatherly but is really only kind to his favorites) and the eternal hang-dog Bates.

 

I still believe if Thomas manages to hang on long enough he could be butler eventually.

 

Me, too!  I've really never warmed to Carson much, and a lot of it has to do with how much he loves Mary, whom I hate!

 

I hope Thomas has some kind of happy ending.  I've always loved his character, but that may have more to do with the beauty of the actor!

 

Dare we hope that Julian Fellowes has actual plots in mind, or does he think our love for the show will allow him to go out on nothing but nostalgia?

[lucindabelle]

I don't think Edith has the right to live at Downton Abbey and, as far as I know, she doesn't contribute to its upkeep. However, her and Marigold Snow's presence impose additional costs through additional food, laundry,cleaning, hair dressing, etc. (since Edith is the only single woman in the house, again, part of the head housemaid's time will be diverted to doing Edith's hair). Now Edith's cost DA a rent paying tenant.

Perhaps DA's owners -- her father and sister- should stop coddling Edith and tell her to start paying rent or boot her ass into the street.

 

That's not quite what I said. I said that Edith can live wherever she wants and the farmer's wife being a danger should not have to factor into it.

It's quite clear from the series that DA is considered ALL of the daughters' home, in fact, Mary was going to live there with her new family, until Matthew died. Cora expressly lured Edith back home.

 

This notion that adult children don't live with family is a very contemporary one and really has no bearing on DA.

 

EDITH didn't cost DA a paying tenant. That's absurd. Mrs. Drewe kidnapped her child. She's dangerous and unhinged. At this point it doesn't matter if anyone thinks Edith is the cause of that. Mrs. Drewe's actions are dangerous and subject to law. Mr. Drewe realizes he's lucky the Crawleys don't press charges.

 

As for a "paying tenant," Robert had loaned Drewe the money to stay there in the first place; it's arguable how much money they are making. Personally, I think Mr. Drewe contributed at least as much if not more than Edith to the breakdown of Mrs. Drewe, by lying to her about the note and not letting on when Margie got worried. I also think Margie not figuring out it was Edith's child makes her the dumbest woman alive, or, suggests she was in denial from the start.

[Diane M]

Over on the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills forum we've chatted about why Lisa Rhinna calls her husband "Harry Hamlin" whenever she speaks of him, using both names. And a couple of times I think she's called him that when speaking to him. "Thank you for the beautiful gift, Harry Hamlin". My impression has been that she both likes the sound of it and thinks it's cute and fun.

Maybe she's pimping an acting job for her husband by mentioning his full name.

 

Surely Mrs. Hughes and Mr. Carson will merit the same cottage setup as the Bates family, since precedence has been set.

 

Hasn't Carson mentioned retiring and finding a B&B for them to own?

Edited January 13, 2016 by Diane M

[RedHawk]

Maybe she's pimping an acting job for her husband by mentioning his full name.

Hasn't Carson mentioned retiring and finding a B&B for them to own?

Quite possible. She's a hustler, that Lisa

Yes, so why aren't they talking about that in addition to getting married.? It's not like there's some specific retirement age they have to wait for to collect Social Security or something. Then Thomas could move up to the position Butler. That is, if Robert wanted him to take that position. I can see Thomas doing well if he'd just get over himself and especially if the downstairs staff was reduced.

[SusanSunflower]

agree -- if Carson's retirement is even a year away, Thomas or someone should be taking on responsibilities and shadowing. Keeping track of the wine cellar, and household financials take not only practice but demonstrated worthiness of trust (cough) and ability (some folks can't do maths or aren't vigilant about routine tasks, like household inventories). This would be doubly so, if Carson's retirement also meant loss of Mrs. Hughes' expertise in household management and dealing with Mrs. Pattmore as well as other female household staff and I suspect the outside neighborhood. Seems like the transition team should be under consideration already.

Eta: With Thomas' history of deceit and theft, I cannot for a moment imagine Robert deciding to advance him to butler ... ever.

Edited January 13, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[HoodlumSheep]

I was so hoping sleepy little Marigold had actually been poisoned to death by Mrs Drewe, who would then pull out a carving knife and go after who ever tried to take Marigold from her (I know it was Mr Drewe but more fun if it was Edith). Now there's a plot development for us!

I was expecting her to leap onto Mr. Drewe's back when he turned his back to her.

As for the Edith stuff. Can't stand her. The reason why Mrs. Drewe became unhinged was because Edith cruelly snatched back Marigold from her. I don't care if Marigold is Edith's daughter, but between the flip flopping of whether she wanted the Drewe's to keep raising her or raising Marigold herself, or having the Drewe's raise her but then trying to get super involved with her...and the fact that Mrs. Drewe mothered Marigold the first 2ish? years of her life...It was too much.

When Mr. Drewe told Lord Grantham that he'd start looking for a new place and Edith coldly agreed "that'd be for the best," I really wanted to punch her face in. How about the Crawley's uproot their entire family instead?

DHJSIDNDKDKXJD

UGH. keyboard smashing rage.

Edited January 13, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[blackwing]

EDITH didn't cost DA a paying tenant. That's absurd. Mrs. Drewe kidnapped her child. She's dangerous and unhinged. At this point it doesn't matter if anyone thinks Edith is the cause of that. Mrs. Drewe's actions are dangerous and subject to law. Mr. Drewe realizes he's lucky the Crawleys don't press charges.

 

I would agree that Mrs. Drewe shouldn't have taken the child, but she was pushed to the breaking point by both Edith and Tim.  My whole issue with Edith is that she doesn't think she is at fault in any of this.  From her point of view, this is her child, and how dare this woman take her away.  Never mind that she can't even bring herself to tell Marigold that she is her mother.  From Marigold's point of view, there was one nice lady taking care of her, and now there's another lady taking care of her.  The way Edith just grabbed the child and stormed off to the car in a huff.  She doesn't even acknowledge the mess she has created.

 

From Mrs. Drewe's point of view, she was given this child to raise.  She loved the child as if she were her own.  Now all of a sudden the rich lady from the manor is taking her away, and claims she is the child's mother.  Well, why didn't she say that in the first place?  Why cruelly give a child to her out of convenience and then change her mind and snatch her away once the bonds of attachment had formed?  It's awful.

 

As far as pressing charges.... I think the Crawleys are lucky that the whole story doesn't come out.  The Drewes are essentially getting pushed off the land that Tim's family has lived on for many generations.  The Crawleys should be grateful to the Drewes for taking this child in.  I think Edith should be giving them a huge fat sum of money for their services, so they can comfortably retire.

 

agree -- if Carson's retirement is even a year away, Thomas or someone should be taking on responsibilities and shadowing. Keeping track of the wine cellar, and household financials take not only practice but demonstrated worthiness of trust (cough) and ability (some folks can't do maths or aren't vigilant about routine tasks, like household inventories). This would be doubly so, if Carson's retirement also meant loss of Mrs. Hughes' expertise in household management and dealing with Mrs. Pattmore as well as other female household staff and I suspect the outside neighborhood. Seems like the transition team should be under consideration already.

Eta: With Thomas' history of deceit and theft, I cannot for a moment imagine Robert deciding to advance him to butler ... ever.

I fully agree that if Carson's retirement is imminent (he has to be about 70 I would think) then Thomas is not a suitable candidate for his replacement.  He is nasty and deceitful and I wouldn't trust him with the house's finances or wine cellar in the least.  This is the same man that was trying to profit from the war by hoarding supplies and selling them.  He's greedy and unscrupulous.

 

But somehow, I wouldn't be surprised if he gets it.  Last season, happy endings and redemption for everyone, most likely.  I think the whole "oh you're gay, you're not right for this underbutler job" bit is to highlight that the only place Thomas will ever fit in, to the extent that he can, is at Downton.

[lucindabelle]

They aren't being pushed off their land. They do not own that land. They are no more being "pushed off" it than Mr. Mason is-- legally, they have no rights.

And whatever emotional rights you think Mrs. Drewe may have, she committed a crime.

If you think that is mitigated because they might blackmail the Crawleys I honestly don't know what to say. That they are in possession of a secret doesn't morally or legally justify Mrs. Drewe snatching a child without telling anyone and taking her away. That is unhinged and desperate behavior, whatever caused it.

 

Let's remember, too, that Edith weaned the child, was separated from her for just a couple of months, then, on bringing her home, visited her several times a week. Marigold knows Edith perfectly well. She's also more than young enough to adapt. I'd say Mr. Drewe created the mess. And by now, Mrs. Drewe knows the score. She knows Edith is the mother. She took her anyway, and made up excuses to justify it.

 

As for "why didn't she say it in the first place"-- even Margie knows the answer to that one; Marigold is illegitimate and it's not respectable. There's zero mystery there.

 

I don't see that it was "cruel" of Edith to take her own daughter back from a woman who had stopped even letting her into the house. And Mr. Drewe had threatened to move away with the child because Margie wanted it, even when he knew all the time that defeated the whole purpose of Edith bringing the child to them. But regardless of how one feels about Mrs. Drewe and her emotions, nothing justifies her snatching the child and letting nobody know. Nothing. I'm glad she's out of the picture now.

 

ETA: no, Carson is not 70 -- at least not yet (the actor is 67, Phyllis Logan is 58). Mrs. Huges said something about 30 years together, so the character is in her 50s (as Logan is, and as Cora/Elizabeth McGovern is too), though they've aged her up.

Edited January 13, 2016 by lucindabelle

[Happy Belly]

Here is my totally unspoiled guess of what is going to happen. When Anna is getting her "stitch", she will die from complications. After all, it IS star-crossed lovers we are talking about! 

[ZoloftBlob]

As far as pressing charges.... I think the Crawleys are lucky that the whole story doesn't come out.  The Drewes are essentially getting pushed off the land that Tim's family has lived on for many generations.  The Crawleys should be grateful to the Drewes for taking this child in.  I think Edith should be giving them a huge fat sum of money for their services, so they can comfortably retire.

 

The only problem that the Crawleys would face if the story came out is that Edith had an illegitmite child. Most members of the peerage would secretly understand why they wanted that secret kept and certainly wouldn't chide the Crawleys for handling a tenant the way they wanted.

 

It's a sucky situation but Tim, like Mr. Mason, is a tenant farmer and not a land owner. Technically they can be turned off their ancestral lands on a whim.

 

And while I am not without sympathy for Mrs. Drewe, either she's mentally ill and shouldn't be around kids any way, or she's a grown woman who knows that Marigold isn't hers  and therefore if she finds Marigold wandering alone at a fair the correct thing to do is not take the child back to her home but to find the child's guardian.

[Mrsjumbo]

Here is my totally unspoiled guess of what is going to happen. When Anna is getting her "stitch", she will die from complications. After all, it IS star-crossed lovers we are talking about!

My unspoiled guess is that someone (Anna? Violet?) is going to need care in that little hospital but won't have what they need & they will realize they DO need to expand & modernize.

[blackwing]

They aren't being pushed off their land. They do not own that land. They are no more being "pushed off" it than Mr. Mason is-- legally, they have no rights.

And whatever emotional rights you think Mrs. Drewe may have, she committed a crime.

If you think that is mitigated because they might blackmail the Crawleys I honestly don't know what to say. That they are in possession of a secret doesn't morally or legally justify Mrs. Drewe snatching a child without telling anyone and taking her away. That is unhinged and desperate behavior, whatever caused it.

I don't think what Mrs. Drewe did is right, but as I said, Edith acts as if she is completely without fault in this situation.  And I wasn't suggesting blackmail.  Putting words in bold is the same to me as using all capitals to shout, and it doesn't make your point any more correct.  I was simply suggesting that the Drewes have done Edith and the family an enormous service in covering up her scandal, and at the very least, Edith could be thanking them, instead of treating them like yesterday's wash.  This is a perfect example of class differences.  Edith doesn't see them as people with feelings, they are just part of that group of people put on this earth to make her life easier.  You said the Drewes are lucky the Crawleys don't press charges.  I say that Robert is gracious enough to recognise that the Drewes are the injured party here.

 

And I do think that Edith would suffer if the secret came out, even if the upper classes would understand.  If it wasn't such a big deal what people thought, then Robert wouldn't have paid that lady anything at all to not say anything about the Gillingham business.  He would have just let her go and leave it at that.  Mary, a widow, met her friend, an unmarried man, in a hotel room.  I guess times were different then, but surely that's nowhere near as scandalous as an unmarried woman bearing the child of a married man.  Edith's secret isn't on the same level as that one of Mary's.

[fishcakes]

You said the Drewes are lucky the Crawleys don't press charges.  I say that Robert is gracious enough to recognise that the Drewes are the injured party here.

 

Not to mention that under British law, what Mrs. Drewe did isn't a crime. And the fact that people here keep saying over and over again that it is doesn't make it so.

 

And I'm not saying that makes what she did okay -- I've already said that I think what she did was wrong -- only that all this discussion of how she should be glad the Crawleys didn't press charges is a moot point since, under the law, she can't be charged.

Edited January 13, 2016 by fishcakes

[ShadowFacts]

Not to beat a dead horse (too much), but I just thought of another thing that may have added to Mrs. Drewe's distress and pushed her to act out (yes, she is responsible for her actions, of course).  In addition to grieving the loss of her youngest child, and I have no trouble believing that is exactly who Marigold was to her, she had no one to talk about it because it's a secret; her husband was terribly unfair and deceitful and one of the authors of her misery;  she has seemingly only had a few months to process all this; the power imbalance that exists; the fact that the child is in her backyard -- she would have to deal with her other childrens' fears that they might be snatched away just as their little sister had been.  Children do think in those terms. She was really dealt a nightmarish hand. 

[jrlr]

It's funny that from a contemporary view, Edith is in the catbird seat: she has a flat in London, a publishing house to run and a child she adores PLUS the money to take care of Marigold while she is at work.  It's just that damned pesky illegitimacy problem which could be explained away with a polite fiction (some dead cousin's child or something) that would keep her in the aristocracy social sphere and probably be politely accepted (though probably not believed) by said aristocracy.  I think JF's plotting is extremely weak this season, and unfortunately, extremely dull. 

 

End: Anna will get pregnant, get a stitch and finally have a child.  She and Bates will open up a small inn directly across the street from the Carson-Hughes inn and a heated rivalry will start up.  Mary will marry somebody who appreciates her underwear and likes pigs.  Edith will marry somebody who is understanding about Marigold and will learn how to smile.  Lord and Lady Grantham will close most of Downton and spend most of their time in London.  Violet will start giving paid tours of the Dowager house with Mrs. Crawley cheering her on.  Daisy will become a full time rabble-rouser and eventually stand for parliament.  Thomas will become a Kabuki performer and eventually write a book called Downton Abbey: The Real Story.

[fishcakes]

the power imbalance that exists;

 

That's why I can't lay too much of the blame at Mr. Drewe's feet. Once Edith asked him to take Marigold in, he probably felt that he couldn't refuse, especially since he owed money to the Crawleys. So I don't think he felt he had much choice either in regard to taking care of Marigold or to keeping quiet about who she really was once Edith made it clear that she wanted no one else to know.

Edited January 13, 2016 by fishcakes

[ZoloftBlob]

Not to mention that under British law, what Mrs. Drewe did isn't a crime.

 

I don't have a huge dog in this fight but are you sure? I grant that it was a different time but assuming Mrs. Drewe wasn't insane, then she as a grown adult saw a child and took her home because she felt the child would be happier with her. Since she didn't ask for a ransom, I get that it might not be kidnapping... but taking someone else's child (and at this point its firmly established that Edith is Marigold's guardian) without permission and with the intent of never giving the kid back... There's got to be a crime in there somewhere, it wasn't the wild west.

[fishcakes]

I don't have a huge dog in this fight but are you sure?

 

Yes. I outlined way upthread somewhere what constitutes kidnapping in the UK and what Mrs. Drewe did doesn't meet the elements of the crime. Anyone who's so inclined can look it up for themselves. The law has been under review in recent years precisely because it allows situations like this to go unprosecuted. If anyone's interested in the reform recommendations ... enjoy!

Edited January 13, 2016 by fishcakes

[wineaux]

Attention everyone!   :-)   I just want to mention that it's Carson's and Mrs. Hughes' *RECEPTION* location that's being thrown about....not the location of the wedding.

 

That is all.  :-D

[ZoloftBlob]

Yes. I outlined way upthread somewhere what constitutes kidnapping in the UK and what Mrs. Drewe did doesn't meet the elements of the crime.

 

Well, to be fair, I did say it didn't rise to kidnapping simply because no ransom was asked for. It's just really hard to believe that, assuming no class differences where the Crawleys would get their way, that someone walking off with a child of family can take it home with no intent of returning the child and the police would say no crime at all was committed. I mean, I don't disagree that the specific crime of kidnapping is not happening... I just don't accept there's no crime here at all.

 

And frankly I am not advocating an arrest here, it seems clear Mrs. Drewe slipped a gear, but I just don't believe again, assuming no class differences, that the police would tell the family of the missing child no crime happened and the other family has every right to simply take their child and not return it.

[Mrsjumbo]

I'd love to see Edith fall for that guy that's starting to persue her. Fall head over heels- & in walks Gregson! <cackle>

[LadyintheLoop]

Once Edith asked him to take Marigold in, he probably felt that he couldn't refuse, especially since he owed money to the Crawleys.

 

 

Edith didn't ask it as a favor, though. Drewe had told her how his wife loved children and wanted a lot of them, and Edith told him that she had a "friend" who was willing to pay for her child's care; it sounded like a win-win. Drewe undoubtedly figured out the truth at once but he was free to refuse; he welcomed the opportunity to pay Robert back for his kindness.

 

Drewe was a decent man and a loving husband, but he assumed that what the missus didn't know wouldn't hurt her. She told him at the big reveal that lying to her was as bad as taking a mistress, and she was right; he'd let her think it was safe to give her heart away. 

 

(OK, his intent wasn't as bad, but the result certainly was.)

[BetyBee]

I don't think anyone will ever switch from Team Mary or Team Edith.  Maybe Fellowes will have all of us loving or hating both of them with his writing by the time the series finale rolls around.  But I kind of doubt it!  

 

I'm bored to tears by the hospital storyline and puzzled by where Fellowes is going with the Thomas character.  And yet I'm really enjoying this final season.  I'll miss the characters and especially the clothes when it's all said and done.  

[SoSueMe]

What is up with the almost painful expression on Mr. Drewe's face all the time? Even when he's happy (is he ever happy?). I must google the actor and see if that is his only "look".

[jrlr]

I'd love to see Edith fall for that guy that's starting to persue her. Fall head over heels- & in walks Gregson! <cackle>

I must have missed it, but who is interested in Edith?

[RedHawk]

What is up with the almost painful expression on Mr. Drewe's face all the time? Even when he's happy (is he ever happy?). I must google the actor and see if that is his only "look".

So true! He must call that one "Blue Frown".

Edited January 14, 2016 by RedHawk

[fishcakes]

Well, to be fair, I did say it didn't rise to kidnapping simply because no ransom was asked for. It's just really hard to believe that, assuming no class differences where the Crawleys would get their way, that someone walking off with a child of family can take it home with no intent of returning the child and the police would say no crime at all was committed. I mean, I don't disagree that the specific crime of kidnapping is not happening... I just don't accept there's no crime here at all.

 

I was talking specifically about kidnapping because posters were calling Mrs. Drewe a kidnapper and arguing that Edith was being kind by not prosecuting her. So I stated what the law was on kidnapping and why Mrs. Drewe could not be prosecuted for it. (It really doesn't have anything to do with whether or not there's a ransom request. The overwhelming majority of kidnappings don't involve ransom; they usually arise out of custody disputes.) Mrs. Drewe not going to jail wouldn't come down to Edith being magnanimous; it comes down to the fact that under the law as written, she didn't commit a kidnapping. And your point that if it isn't the specific crime of kidnapping that it must be some other crime is well-taken -- but there's nothing else that it could obviously be, which is why the law on kidnapping has been under review for the last few years. I know some (not you, ZoloftBlob, I've always found your posts to be very even-handed) badly want Mrs. Drewe to be guilty of something (as well as insane, and a neglectful mother, and puts too much mustard on her hot dog, and always returns her library books late), but as far as I can tell, she isn't. If someone can say what the specific crime is, other than kidnapping, that she's purportedly committed, then I'd be interested in that, but otherwise, I don't think she's done anything that would land her in jail.

 

And this doesn't have anything to do with why she's not a kidnapper, but I don't think Mrs. Drewe took Marigold with the intention of not returning her. She took her to her home, which she had to have known was the first place people would look, and as soon as Mr. Drewe showed up, she handed her over. I think she was just infuriated that Edith, who purportedly loves Marigold so much, was paying so little attention that anyone could have walked off with her. And I think Edith is a garbage bag, but I don't fault her for that; a parent can't stare at her child every second of the day like a psycho. Nevertheless, Mrs. Drewe was right that no one was paying attention to Marigold for at least long enough for Mrs. Drewe to walk away with her, put her in the car, and drive away. I think her motivation was partly that she wanted to have Marigold back for just a little while and partly that she wanted to rub Edith's face in it a bit, like, "oh you're a better mum than me? You don't even pay any attention to your child."

 

"Kidnapper" starts to sound weird if you say it too many times.

Edited January 14, 2016 by fishcakes

[RedHawk]

I must have missed it, but who is interested in Edith?

Even if you didn't intend this to be funny, it is, hilariously so. Who indeed.

[Constantinople]

Attention everyone!   :-)   I just want to mention that it's Carson's and Mrs. Hughes' *RECEPTION* location that's being thrown about....not the location of the wedding.

 

That is all.  :-D

 

 

Good point.

 

Speaking of, where are they getting married?

 

I ask because statistically speaking, Carson is most likely a member of the Church of England and Mrs. Hughes is most likely a Presbyterian.