S31.E14: Lie, Cheat, And Steal / S31.E15: Live Reunion

[LanceM]

Honestly based on her juror speaks video I think Kelly was always going to go vote Jeremy. I don't buy the number thing for one second.

[Bouffe]

This was a great season, with great players (not all of them but..) and with a great finale! 

 

The final 5 tribal council was insane, as everyone else pointed out (it was fun to read the "live" reactions from all y'alls!) - I too was confused by the fact that if no concencus was reached, Kimmi and Tasha would be immune and Keith would be voted out. I don't remember this rule at all. I assumed they'd go to rocks, but I guess not. I was not surprised Kelly wanted Keith to stay - he had a better chance at winning individual immunity than Kimmi did, which would have been beneficial to Kelly.

 

I love Keith and was sorry to see him go. I really wanted him in the F3!

 

With the F4 that we got, I would have loved loved loved to have seen Jeremy, Spencer and Kelly duke it out at F3. I think Kelly played a great game. Heck, I think the F4 all played a great game (yes I think Keith did, too, in his own way). A win by any of them would have been fine by me, although I was cheering for Spencer. That F4 "threat" Spencer made to Jeremy made me shake my head - I know he was desperate and trying whatever he could to stay in... But I think that threat, combined with the "all for my family" speech Jeremy made sealed Spencer's faith. I know Jeremy pulled all the stops in hopes of winning, but I was a bit disappointed with his pulling of the family card.

 

I was not surprised Tasha didn't get votes. She played a great game, but the way she played is usually not valued with the jury members. She appeared to them as more of a lackey rather than the person in the power position. I thought Spencer not only showed a lot of growth as a person and a player, but I liked the way he played it all. Jeremy played an excellent game, won immunity when it counted the most and had the best social game of them all. I wonder if he would have won in a landslide if he had not mentioned his family and new baby?

[ghoulina]

Probst's hair is really doing that Ruben Kinkaid thing these days.  I'd think by now he could afford a decent wig.

 

I laughed so hard last night when I realized that Keith is actually a year younger than Probst. He just doesn't feel the need to die his hair and overly Botox himself. 

 

've seen a ton of Survivor seasons, but not all (seen enough that a lot of them kind of blur together for me). I am a big Survivor fan, but certainly not an expert, so I am wondering if anybody knows the answer to this question: Didn't it used to be that, if there was a tie at TC, the person with the most votes against them previously goes home? I feel like that was a HUGE issue early on, that people didn't want others to know that there had been votes cast against them once they merged because then they would be a target. Did that go away? Does that not apply so late in the game? I enjoyed last night's tribal, but something didn't seem right to me, and it DEFINITELY wouldn't have been right to have Keith go, who had zero votes against him at that particular TC. :-/

 

I haven't watched all seasons of Survivor. I started at the beginning, but missed a big chunk in the middle there. I'm trying to go through what's available on Amazon, but they don't have all the earlier seasons. At any rate, I remember what you're talking about and I really enjoyed when it was done that way. But I haven't seen that method of breaking a tie in a LONG time. I'm not sure when they phased it out, or why, but I thought it made things more interesting for sure. 

 

I am totally lost on how they worked it last night that Keith was suddenly on the block. 

[peachmangosteen]

A very boring/anticlimactic end to a really great season imo.

 

Jeremy came off terribly to me in this episode. He was so gross about Kimmi. Where's all the outage over his behavior like there was when Kelley, uh, well I still don't know what she did that was bad. And the emotional manipulation with the pregnant wife was so low to me. I don't believe it won him the game, but it's still something I'm not a fan of at all.

 

Spencer also came off terribly. Not trying to take out Jeremy boggles my mind. I thought he was smarter than that. But then we saw that he was just really arrogant. He played every TC in the finale pretty horribly imo.

 

I've grown to hate Tasha but I thought she had the best FTC performance. She is a damn fool if she ever thought she had a chance of winning in her preferred F3 though. Just so dumb it blows my mind!

 

I'll miss Kelley. She is one of my all time faves now. She played such a great game and she entertained me all the way through.

 

The reunion was boring as hell. I had two takeaways from it: Val is stunningly beautiful and why the hell was Keith so emotional?

Edited December 17, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[Bouffe]

So, Spencer's over the top speech to Jeremy helped Jeremy win the million?

I am a bit skeptical of Fishbach's claim. Would at least 6 jurors have voted for Wentworth over Jeremy?

If it is true, it would mean Jeremy won more by default, based upon the jury disliking Spencer and Tasha, than through his own game play and popularity.

I wish Probst would have polled the jury about who they would have voted for if Wentworth instead of Spencer made the Final 3

 

I was expecting Jeff to poll the jury about this too and was disappointed he did not. I too think Wentworth wins it, but given Jeremy's family speech, maybe he still would have won. It would have been quite interesting, that's for sure! Kelly found and used two idols, won a few immunity challenges, seemed to have decent social skills, even made a believable fake idol (too bad Keith didn't use it!). Jeremy had a great social game, won immunity once but when it counted the most and had two idols. Could have gone either way, but I think the fact Kelly had friends on the jury would have swayed the votes in her favour.

[Bryce Lynch]

Tasha... what did you do.. exactly. (I am very intrigued about her jury speech now)

Tasha and Savage were swapped into a tribe where they were at the bottom with little hope. She picked up on Varner's secret communications at the challenge, outed him as a "rat" and took over the tribe. That was some of the best play I have seen.

She also kept Abi in the fold, by humoring her and keeping a straight face when she made some insane ramblings.

She then worked her way into the core of the new majority alliance with Jeremy.

She sniffed out Kimmi's treachery and warned clueless Jeremy about it, but he remained SURE that Kimmi was on board.

Her biggest mistake was not going for the all girl alliance with Kimmi, Wentworth and Abi.

I don't see what Jeremy did that was so spectacular. He played a good social game, while still staying under the radar for the most part and found a couple of idols. He wasted one of the idols in a way that could have blown up his own game if the others had been smarter. He then pulled the pregnant wife card at FTC.

I am not saying he didn't deserve to win, but I think the gap between him and Tasha in terms of what they actually did in the game was not that big.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Bryce Lynch

[Bouffe]

I think it hit Spencer like a ton of bricks....what was I thinking?? Why didn't I ever try to get Jeremy out?!

 

He said as much during the reunion show. He said he stopped watching the season so he wouldn't get angry at himself about not voting Jeremy out earlier. He said something like "I'd be watching and going - should have voted Jeremy out, should have voted Jeremy out" (paraphrasing)

[RedheadZombie]

I wonder 2 things....

 

First, if Kimmy, Kelly and Keith were more secretive about their discussions and not so out there where the others could see, would it have worked? Kelly would have played her idol and I think Jeremy would have kept his for the next tribal council. I think Kelly would have had a million dollars this morning if that happened.

Secondly, I wonder why Spencer blurted out all 3 were voting the same at the tribal council. What good did that do?

 

I think it hit Spencer like a ton of bricks....what was I thinking?? Why didn't I ever try to get Jeremy out?!

  

People have the right to flip and it's obviously part of the game, but I never get the moral outrage of the flipper when they lose. And Kimmi's fit at them changing plans and leaving her out of it was a little OTT. And did Kimmi not understand the concept of potentially drawing rocks? Why follow through when it would obviously be a tie? And why did Spencer announce it ahead of time?

I think Kimmi may regret her performance at FTC, she came out looking like an ass, in my opinion. You can always tell who thinks they should have won, and are not taking any responsibility for their own mistakes.

Spencer had a wake-up call as well, I think he finally realized he was instrumental in handing Jeremy the win.

I did find her a little irritating. And then her Ponderosa video in which she whines - I guess I can't go get water with someone without being accused of flipping. You did flip Kimmi, did you forget all of this happened on camera?

[RedheadZombie]

Forgot to add: what do you want to bet that Keith cast the "Jermy"'vote. And Kelley and Jeremy were so cute laughing and hitting each other right after playing their idols.

[peachmangosteen]

Forgot to add: what do you want to bet that Keith cast the "Jermy"'vote. And Kelley and Jeremy were so cute laughing and hitting each other right after playing their idols.

 

I think he spelled it "Jermey."

 

And yea that was a really cute moment.

[ihartcoffee]

So Tasha was the goat? Even though Spencer also didn't win, Tasha seemed a non entity up there. She rode coat tails the whole way.

I don't understand why Joe was seen as such a huge threat and Jeremy was not? Maybe Jeremy's social game was better? But he was just as big a threat.

[33kaitykaity]

I don't have a problem with Jeremy winning, even the total sweep of the votes, but even without the boot list this was just so lamely predictable.  Once the 3/3 ties happened and it had to be one of the underdog three that went, it was over.  And all I can say is "retching sounds."  

[himela]

I didn't like Jeremy winning to be honest, I didn't think he did anything to deserve it other than enjoying Joe's wins in immunity challenges pre merge and following Spencer's lead after merge. I am not clear whether any decisions he made were his own or Spencer's but it definitely seems the only choice he made by his own was using the HII for Stephen. And the worst thing he did which disgusted me was using his wife's pregnancy to get the sympathy vote - the timing he did it was disgusting as well, when the last juror was asking questions. I respect Jeremy as a person but I found this to be a below the belt hit.

 

I was stunned to see Jeremy received all ten votes. I mean, we go through all this great season talking about amazing moves and worthy players bla bla, and what it comes down to is a sympathy vote? Spencer was on the bottom half of the game, he scrumbled to take a breath and he survived, he won three immunity challenges, he was the strategist behind everything and he gets zero votes? Tragic, in my opinion. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

 

General comments for the rest:

Poor Shirin. Her first season she's trapped with racist, sexist people and her second season she is booted first.

 

If Kimmi had voted for Kelley, she would have proven to her alliance she is with them and Keith would have gone. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

 

Poor old Keith. The innocent fish in the game of sharks.

 

I'd expected that Kass at least would have voted for Spencer. For good old times.

 

I'm surprised Abi had so little air time, only to say a sentence. While Joe... too much air time. I kinda like him but making him such a hero is too much.

 

Have a great new year everyone, see you next season :)

[Wings]

I don't understand why Probst and Wentworth were giving Keith a hard time at the reunion for not playing his fake idol at Tribal Council. What would that have accomplished? Probst would have declared it fake and thrown it into the fire.

Keith did the only thing he could do with a fake idol, which is to fiddle with it to make people suspect he has an idol. I guess he could have shown it to someone else to make Jeremy, Spencer or Tasha think he had an idol, but I don't see how not playing the fake idol at Tribal Council was the "million dollar mistake" that Wentworth called it at the reunion.

 

Not telling everyone before TC was the mistake.  Had they known, going in, that he had an idol it could have changed things.  That was what Kelley was thinking/hoping. 

 

Jeremy playing for Val.  Oh come on.  That didn't influence the vote at all.  I doubt that sat well with anyone.  I thought it was strange and made no sense.  

 

I enjoyed this season.  I have huge respect for Kelley and she will go on the list of my favorite players.  

[peachmangosteen]

I didn't like Jeremy winning to be honest, I didn't think he did anything to deserve it ...

 

I think Jeremy definitely played a good game, but now that it's over, I don't believe it was really as good as I initially thought it was. I don't think it was any better than Kelley's certainly (and in fact I think she played a far superior game) and it was basically on par with Spencer's imo. And it doesn't feel like a particularly top tier game overall to me. Probably mid-tier.

 

But then again his game play was the type that's very hard to really portray accurately on tv I think, so it's hard for me to accurately assess it.

Edited December 17, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[LanceM]

I didn't like Jeremy winning to be honest, I didn't think he did anything to deserve it other than enjoying Joe's wins in immunity challenges pre merge and following Spencer's lead after merge. I am not clear whether any decisions he made were his own or Spencer's but it definitely seems the only choice he made by his own was using the HII for Stephen. And the worst thing he did which disgusted me was using his wife's pregnancy to get the sympathy vote - the timing he did it was disgusting as well, when the last juror was asking questions. I respect Jeremy as a person but I found this to be a below the belt hit.

 

I was stunned to see Jeremy received all ten votes. I mean, we go through all this great season talking about amazing moves and worthy players bla bla, and what it comes down to is a sympathy vote? Spencer was on the bottom half of the game, he scrumbled to take a breath and he survived, he won three immunity challenges, he was the strategist behind everything and he gets zero votes? Tragic, in my opinion. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

Well I have seen no evidence that Spencer was the strategist behind everything that went down but even he was his social game and jury management was atrocious. We have seen time and time again on this show that you can make all the moves in the world on the show but if the jury doesn't like you they are going to go look for an alternative to award the money. In this case Jeremy.

[Skeeter22]

You can't go from losing to winning in a shut out just on sympathy. Jeremy was winning regardless. The question is, who could Spencer and Tasha beat? I don't think they could beat Kelley or Keith. Which is hilarious since they were saying it would be an abomination if Kelley and Keith made it to the finals. I don't think either of them realized they were the goats.

[LanceM]

You can't go from losing to winning in a shut out just on sympathy. Jeremy was winning regardless. The question is, who could Spencer and Tasha beat? I don't think they could beat Kelley or Keith. Which is hilarious since they were saying it would be an abomination if Kelley and Keith made it to the finals. I don't think either of them realized they were the goats.

I am not sure they could have beat Kimmi either who was very well liked by the jury and had her move to vote off Jeremy worked and she made it the end she would have a good strategic case to argue as well.

[peachmangosteen]

I can't decide if Spencer never had a chance because his social game was too bad all along or if he really screwed himself by his poor performances in the last few TCs/him not taking out Jeremy. Initially I would've thought the latter. Prior to the finale I thought Spencer had a decent chance of getting votes at FTC, even against Jeremy. But now I'm not so sure he ever really had a shot at all. At the very least it seems pretty clear that, as Skeeter22 stated, he never had a chance against Kelley or Keith,. And maybe not even against Kimmi.

Edited December 17, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[himela]

He was banned.  He left right after being voted off and went home (which he believes was the reason he was excluded) but he was active on SM while filming was going on.  On top of spoilers being leaked out, many think that is the real reason he wasn't asked back because he was behind them (or at least for being on SM and giving that away).  Plus, he whined that he wouldn't have come back if he knew he'd be out first.

Could you say more about this matter? What is SM? I know nothing about this matter and I'm curious. Thanks :)

[Alapaki]

I think Jeremy definitely played a good game, but now that it's over, I don't believe it was really as good as I initially thought it was. I don't think it was any better than Kelley's certainly (and in fact I think she played a far superior game) and it was basically on par with Spencer's imo. And it doesn't feel like a particularly top tier game overall to me. Probably mid-tier.

 

But then again his game play was the type that's very hard to really portray accurately on tv I think, so it's hard for me to accurately assess it.

 

I tend to agree.  However, I think Jeremy either positioned (in which case he gets credit) or found (in which case he gets lucky) himself in a situation where he was never seriously targeted and could stay relatively off the radar.  

 

Granted, he was smart enough to not do anything to put a target on his back (and I'm still curious if he was throwing ICs along the way to avoid the target).  And he obviously convinced both Spencer and Tasha that they were carrying him, rather than vice versa.

 

There are times when circumstances put a player in a position where the most strategic move is to just do nothing and go along to get along.

 

I can't decide if Spencer never had a chance because his social game was too bad all along or if he really screwed himself by his poor performances in the last few TCs/him not taking out Jeremy. Initially I would've thought the latter. Prior to the finale I thought Spencer had a decent chance of getting votes at FTC, even against Jeremy. But now I'm not so sure he ever really had a shot at all. At the very least it seems pretty clear that, as Skeeter22 stated, he never had a chance against Kelley or Keith,. And maybe not even against Kimmi.

 

I lean towards Spencer never having had a chance.

 

I think this is an example of the player we see in confessionals versus the player who's in camp playing the game.  The editors really hit us over the head with the HEY, LOOKIT, SPENCER'S A CHANGED MAN, HE REALLY REALLY REALLY CARES NOW AND UP WITH PEOPLE AND WE ARE THE WORLD AND BLECH!!!.  Presumably in an effort to make Spencer the "Second Chance" poster-child.

 

But, around camp, he probably came across as the same old maladjusted dork that he was the first time.

 

And, of course, anyone who was even considering that he'd changed (and who might've cast a vote based on that) would have said "fuck that" when they heard his little temper tantrum at F4 TC.

 

Ultimately, best thing about the conclusion of this season is that its' hopefully the last time I hear the phrase "voting bloc" again!!!!!!  Because no one has yet to explain how that is different from an alliance, or sub-alliance.

[Miss Scarlet]

I don't have a problem with Jeremy winning - I think he's pretty competent at all the facets of the game (physical, social, strategic). I do think it's interesting how the most "masculine" players tend to win the final jury. There's all this worry that players like Spencer and Stephen (the so-called "students of the game") will be looked at as the true masterminds if they sit next to the more "alpha" players, and yet, this hasn't been the pattern for most of the winners (I'm sure there are some counterexamples, though).

 

It sort of reminds me of a comment I read after Natalie's win in San Juan Del Sur. The jury wanted a man to win and since it was an all-female final 3 they picked the next best thing - the most tomboy-ish, bro-y kind of woman. They didn't want to vote for someone whose primary role they saw as being a mom figure (Missy) or someone who they related to primarily through her looks (Jaclyn). So Natalie was the next best thing. I thought that was a really interesting insight.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Miss Scarlet

[ProfCrash]

SM = Social Media. His boot was spoiled pretty quickly since he had returned to the States

[Alapaki]

I don't understand why Probst and Wentworth were giving Keith a hard time at the reunion for not playing his fake idol at Tribal Council. What would that have accomplished? Probst would have declared it fake and thrown it into the fire.

Keith did the only thing he could do with a fake idol, which is to fiddle with it to make people suspect he has an idol. I guess he could have shown it to someone else to make Jeremy, Spencer or Tasha think he had an idol, but I don't see how not playing the fake idol at Tribal Council was the "million dollar mistake" that Wentworth called it at the reunion.

 

Not telling everyone before TC was the mistake.  Had they known, going in, that he had an idol it could have changed things.  That was what Kelley was thinking/hoping.

 

 

I think the problem was that Jeremy was the one who suggested booting Spencer.  By agreeing with this, Keith and Kelly gave up any leverage they had.  From that point on, Jeremy had no incentive to defect.  If Keith was going to play a HII (and that TC was the last time one could be played) and target Spencer, then Spencer would be voted out regardless of how Jeremy voted.  Why would Jeremy jump on that train (thus voting Spencer out 3-2) and burn his jury chances with Spencer?

 

IMO, what they should have done is what I've always said that people in that position should do:  Announce that you have a HII.  Now both Keith and Kelly are safe (of so Jeremy, Tasha and Spencer would think) and so one of the Jeremy/Tasha/Spencer alliance would be voted out.  Then you tell them "either you decide which of you is going home, or we do."

 

I guarantee if they'd done that, all three of Jeremy/Tasha/Spencer would've been grovelling with Keith/Kelly and offering F3 promises in exchange for someone else being targeted.

[blackwing]

I didn't like Jeremy winning to be honest, I didn't think he did anything to deserve it other than enjoying Joe's wins in immunity challenges pre merge and following Spencer's lead after merge. I am not clear whether any decisions he made were his own or Spencer's but it definitely seems the only choice he made by his own was using the HII for Stephen. And the worst thing he did which disgusted me was using his wife's pregnancy to get the sympathy vote - the timing he did it was disgusting as well, when the last juror was asking questions. I respect Jeremy as a person but I found this to be a below the belt hit.

 

I was stunned to see Jeremy received all ten votes. I mean, we go through all this great season talking about amazing moves and worthy players bla bla, and what it comes down to is a sympathy vote? Spencer was on the bottom half of the game, he scrumbled to take a breath and he survived, he won three immunity challenges, he was the strategist behind everything and he gets zero votes? Tragic, in my opinion. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

I agree completely with you.  I thought Jeremy played well, but not 10-0-0 well.  When it comes down to it, I think the jury was very bitter towards both Spencer and Tasha.  I do feel that Spencer and Tasha were on the bottom more, and because of that, they had to flip multiple times and stab people in the back.  Whereas Jeremy was hardly ever in any danger, so didn't have to do much of that.  Stephen said that many on the jury thought Tasha was doing Jeremy's dirty work.  Implying that the jury knew that Jeremy didn't have to do the work himself.  So why was he rewarded with a landslide vote?

 

Regarding whether he could have won without the "my wife is pregnant" card.  That might very well have been the case.  But if that was the case, the fact that he felt the need to pull it out was just unnecessary.  In addition, the very reason why he didn't want to tell anyone about it in the first place is because he was afraid that people would use it against him.  "We have to get Jeremy out, because if the jury knows his wife is pregnant, he will be unbeatable."   So what does he do?  Get to the final tribal and then on the very last question, conveniently sob that his wife is pregnant  Thus proving that he wasn't above the shame of using it to garner sympathy.

[slowpoked]

I think Jeremy was hoping that Keith's idol was real, and so that's why he made that "aw, man" gesture when Keith didn't play it. I think he truly wanted Spencer out, but didn't want blood on his hands. At least he can say to Spencer that he didn't vote for him, but unfortunately he got idol'ed out.

 

And you gotta give it to Wentworth. At F5 she was played the underdog role perfectly for the jury - "Well, I guess my vote doesn't matter anyway..." I think was a subtle, yet masterful touch to show to the jury how far she has come. I really think it would have been close if she made F3 - Kass, Ciera, Abi & Keith are sure votes. Joe was apparently a swing vote, and Kimmi was still bitter about that showboating by Jeremy. It could have easily gone 5-5 or 6-4, even with the pregnancy card thrown in there.

 

And oh, the irony of Tasha calling someone else a goat when she ended up being THE goat herself. I think she realized it by F4 and made, I think, the smart move to just shut up. So at least she can claim she made F3.

Edited December 17, 2015 by slowpoked

[Alapaki]

I posted this in the Speculation Thread, but it is also episode-specific now.

 

Congratulations to everyone who guessed "all votes at TC nullified by HIIs" as the "First time in 31 seasons" event.

But I'm not sure why TPTB find this something to brag about. 

The bottom line is that TPTB allowed their hard-on for HIIs to lead them to put multiple HIIs in play at one time, which resulted (as it was bound to, eventually) in Paschal 2.0. 

So, if last night was okay, why keep the fire-making challenge as the F4 tie-breaker?

[Bryce Lynch]

Regarding Spencer's threats or "bullying" as some have ridiculously labeled it.

At the Final 6 FTC, I think he was trying to prevent a rock fight. Keep in mind, nobody but Jeremy and Wentworth knew about the idols.

He told Kimmi that he, Jeremy and Tasha were all voting the same way so she would know (except for idols), the best case scenario of her flipping would be her pulling rocks along with Keith and Tasha. (Spencer had immunity and Jeremy and Wentworth would be immune from rocks as they were the ones in the tie vote).

So, Kimmi could have a 100% chance of making the last 5 if she stuck with the alliance or a 33.3% chance of being eliminated if she flipped.

At the final 4 FTC, when he warned and threatened Jeremy of the dangers of having Wentworth at FTC and Spencer on the jury, he was trying to keep Jeremy from flipping on him.

The stuff about working to make sure Jeremy didn't win was probably an idle threat, but possibly an effective one with Jeremy being on the fence.

His talk of Wentworth being a bigger threat at FTC was self serving,but if we believe Fishbach, it was true, as he claims the jury would have picked Wentworth over Jeremy.

[candall]

Okay, this is probably weird, but I think Jeremy was deliberately punting the challenges so he didn't attract the spotlight of doom.

 

Joe and Jeremy are both strong, attractive men and seem like nice people.  Neither one of them did any backstabbing or made any major strategy moves at all, except Jeremy squandered an idol on Fishback (which should have immediately suggested he had a second, idiots.)

 

But Joe just kept winning those challenges, which made people crazy.  Rabid crazy--like he was all kinds of horrible to have the audacity.

 

Jeremy won zero challenges, until the crucial last one. If he'd scored a couple of earlier wins, I doubt if Spencer would be kicking himself right now for being so oblivious to The Jeremy Threat

 

If Jeremy ever said, "I relied on my physical strength the first time around, but for Second Chances I decided the better strategy was to dial that back as a way to strengthen my social game," I would be in awe.

[Wings]

 

Okay, this is probably weird, but I think Jeremy was deliberately punting the challenges so he didn't attract the spotlight of doom.

 

 

Not weird at all.  I feel certain he ducked the ICs on purpose.  That is what I assumed all through the game, anyway.  

Edited December 17, 2015 by wings707

[Alapaki]

At the final 4 FTC, when he warned and threatened Jeremy of the dangers of having Wentworth at FTC and Spencer on the jury, he was trying to keep Jeremy from flipping on him.

The stuff about working to make sure Jeremy didn't win was probably an idle threat, but possibly an effective one with Jeremy being on the fence.

His talk of Wentworth being a bigger threat at FTC was self serving,but if we believe Fishbach, it was true, as he claims the jury would have picked Wentworth over Jeremy.

 

 

Spencer wasn't wrong about Kelly being a greater FTC threat to Jeremy than he (Spencer) would be.

 

But he came across like a petulant cry-baby.

 

And even suggesting that you could influence the rest of the jury, in front of the jury, is just stupid.

 

Spencer wasn't a bully.  He was just a dick.

[ghoulina]

I'm surprised Abi had so little air time, only to say a sentence.

 

I was really looking forward to an Abi speech at FTC. She even brought notes! Than she said little and less. I was robbed!!!!

 

 

I agree completely with you.  I thought Jeremy played well, but not 10-0-0 well.  When it comes down to it, I think the jury was very bitter towards both Spencer and Tasha.  I do feel that Spencer and Tasha were on the bottom more, and because of that, they had to flip multiple times and stab people in the back.  Whereas Jeremy was hardly ever in any danger, so didn't have to do much of that.

 

I think you may be right. But I just didn't anticipate THIS jury being a bitter jury. I figured these seasoned players would be more about appreciating game. Again, not saying Jeremy played a bad one, but I did not think it was a shut-out kind of game. 

[slowpoked]

Spencer wasn't wrong about Kelly being a greater FTC threat to Jeremy than he (Spencer) would be.

 

But he came across like a petulant cry-baby.

 

And even suggesting that you could influence the rest of the jury, in front of the jury, is just stupid.

 

Spencer wasn't a bully.  He was just a dick.

Yeah, looking back, I kinda get what he said that he didn't regret the move, just how he presented it. He should have made the threat to Jeremy at camp, when it was private, and not in front of everyone who has your fate at the palm of their hands.

 

Then again, Spencer way overplayed. He probably thought the jury would be impressed with his big, bold moves of bullying and threatening, that they would see it his way, and think "Man, Spencer played such an awesome game. He controlled the tribe that last two tribals...."

[Special K]

The scene of Jeremy trying to get Keith's attention is probably one of my favorite Survivor scenes of all time.

 

Seriously, my favorite OF ALL TIME.  Somebody, pretty please make a gif of that!

[How Bout That]

 

I was stunned to see Jeremy received all ten votes. I mean, we go through all this great season talking about amazing moves and worthy players bla bla, and what it comes down to is a sympathy vote? Spencer was on the bottom half of the game, he scrumbled to take a breath and he survived, he won three immunity challenges, he was the strategist behind everything and he gets zero votes? Tragic, in my opinion. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

 

Absolutely right. Spencer outplayed Jeremy top to bottom and Jeremy had no thoughts that weren't given to him by Spencer. The only strategy Jeremy had was "Val, I wuvs you!!" Ridiculous.

It would be nice if once in a while juries would vote based on gameplay rather than emotions.

[Bryce Lynch]

Regarding Tasha and Spencer as goats. I think they were sort of goats in comparison to Jeremy who was so popular, but were both good players who could have beaten lesser players at FTC.

They both fought hard and well to make it to FTC. Their mistake was not understanding that they couldn't beat Jeremy. Tasha passing on the all girls alliance was a huge mistake IMO.

I think Spencer badly miscalculated the ramifications of bringing Abi as a goat. Yes, having a goat dragged along reduces your chances of making FTC by one third, but having her and either Kimmi, Keith or Tasha there would have increased your chances of WINNING at FTC from near zero to very good.

Spencer's thinking was that of someone playing for 2nd or 3rd, not 1st, though I am sure he didn't see it that way at the time.

Jeremy, on the other hand, didn't need a true goat to win, so it made sense for him to maximize his chances of making FTC, even if it meant bringing some relatively strong players with him.

[Bryce Lynch]

Absolutely right. Spencer outplayed Jeremy top to bottom and Jeremy had no thoughts that weren't given to him by Spencer. The only strategy Jeremy had was "Val, I wuvs you!!" Ridiculous.

It would be nice if once in a while juries would vote based on gameplay rather than emotions.

I think this jury was quietly one of the most bitter juries ever. It seems that in recent seasons juries have been much less bitter, voting for players like Natalie, Cochran and Tony who had outsmarted and blindsided many of them.

That said, keeping the jury from hating you has traditionally been an important aspect of Survivor and Jeremy did that extremely well.

[LanceM]

Absolutely right. Spencer outplayed Jeremy top to bottom and Jeremy had no thoughts that weren't given to him by Spencer. The only strategy Jeremy had was "Val, I wuvs you!!" Ridiculous.

It would be nice if once in a while juries would vote based on gameplay rather than emotions.

They did. Gameplay means voting people out of the game in a way that makes them want to vote for you at the end. Spencer failed miserably in the second part of that equation.

[Bryce Lynch]

Okay, this is probably weird, but I think Jeremy was deliberately punting the challenges so he didn't attract the spotlight of doom.

Joe and Jeremy are both strong, attractive men and seem like nice people. Neither one of them did any backstabbing or made any major strategy moves at all, except Jeremy squandered an idol on Fishback (which should have immediately suggested he had a second, idiots.)

But Joe just kept winning those challenges, which made people crazy. Rabid crazy--like he was all kinds of horrible to have the audacity.

Jeremy won zero challenges, until the crucial last one. If he'd scored a couple of earlier wins, I doubt if Spencer would be kicking himself right now for being so oblivious to The Jeremy Threat

If Jeremy ever said, "I relied on my physical strength the first time around, but for Second Chances I decided the better strategy was to dial that back as a way to strengthen my social game," I would be in awe.

I am not sure I buy Jeremy tanking. Even when he really needed a win he lost to Spencer and then Wentworth. The challenge he finally won wasn't very physically or mentally challenging but mainly required hand eye coordination and perhaps a little luck.

[Bryce Lynch]

I tend to agree. However, I think Jeremy either positioned (in which case he gets credit) or found (in which case he gets lucky) himself in a situation where he was never seriously targeted and could stay relatively off the radar.

Granted, he was smart enough to not do anything to put a target on his back (and I'm still curious if he was throwing ICs along the way to avoid the target). And he obviously convinced both Spencer and Tasha that they were carrying him, rather than vice versa.

There are times when circumstances put a player in a position where the most strategic move is to just do nothing and go along to get along.

I lean towards Spencer never having had a chance.

I think this is an example of the player we see in confessionals versus the player who's in camp playing the game. The editors really hit us over the head with the HEY, LOOKIT, SPENCER'S A CHANGED MAN, HE REALLY REALLY REALLY CARES NOW AND UP WITH PEOPLE AND WE ARE THE WORLD AND BLECH!!!. Presumably in an effort to make Spencer the "Second Chance" poster-child.

But, around camp, he probably came across as the same old maladjusted dork that he was the first time.

And, of course, anyone who was even considering that he'd changed (and who might've cast a vote based on that) would have said "fuck that" when they heard his little temper tantrum at F4 TC.

Ultimately, best thing about the conclusion of this season is that its' hopefully the last time I hear the phrase "voting bloc" again!!!!!! Because no one has yet to explain how that is different from an alliance, or sub-alliance.

Alliances are relatively permanent or at least have a facade of permanence.

Voting blocs are more openly temporary.

I hated all the talk of "evolution" from alliances to voting blocs, but they did happen.

But, as Tasha pointed out it was mainly because of all the tribe shifting, not because it is "new school" Survivor.

I also think the huge 13 person post merge tribe made it hard to form solid alliances.

[How Bout That]

 

They did. Gameplay means voting people out of the game in a way that makes them want to vote for you at the end. Spencer failed miserably in the second part of that equation.

 

It's supposed to be "Outwit, Outplay, Outlast." not outschmooze.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Wow, lots of people shitting on Jeremy's game :)   This was a beautiful, perfect finale for me.  I remember wanting both Aras and Tony to win - shocked when I got Aras, not shocked at all when I got Tony.  The Jeremy win feels incredibly satisfying.  Unfortunately, I knew about Yul going in!  Yul is a nice counterpoint to Jeremy.  The guy who looks brawny and alpha-male on the outside, but I would say is very much not, in the game of Survivor.  Yul was like the brain of all brain trusts, and Jeremy was like the smoothest, calmest, swimmer through the game.  Jeremy winning the Immunity Challenge was one of the most beautiful moments I've ever seen on this show!  I felt it all.  I couldn't believe how much my stomach was in knots through the entire 2 hours.  I can't believe how much I care about Jeremy!

 

Part 1, some things I noticed:

 

- Tasha's beautiful breasts

- Spencer's imitation of Keith

- The IC with the stairs.  I really thought somebody was going to barf at the top.

- Spencer's weird (disguising himself?  Lowering his voice) accent when he was strategizing with Tasha

- Tasha about Kimmie "I think it makes her feel good, to like, play....."   I know this statement will be controversial.  But I loved it.  (And then Kimmie totally humiliated herself at the FTC, and Jeremy answered her perfectly.  I can't even tell if he meant to.  But she hilariously shamed herself and slithered off without a countering word.  All that time to think, and that's what you do.)

- The scene where Tasha and Spencer figure out Kimmie is lying.  Kimmie approaches them, and Spencer is just so over the top fake when speaking to her!  It is so hilarious and obvious to the audience, but seemingly not obvious to Kimmie.  This is so funny to me!  Spencer doesn't lie well.  His "acting" was just so, so funny.  And then Kimmie got so defensive towards Jeremy and turned on the waterworks.  Hahahahah

- I love the Tasha/Spencer/Jeremy loyalty.  

 

The TC where Spencer had immunity --- when all the votes were in, couldn't Spencer simply hand his immunity at that point to Jeremy?  There would obviously be no votes for him.  But this might be too late because it's too easy a play.

Loved Jeremy getting so mad at Kimmie, it was very funny.

My notes were "What disorganized bullshit was that" and "At least Kimmie is gone."

 

Part 2

 

- Keith in his underwear, TF?

- Spencer's flaw in this game is being so loyal to the person who can actually beat him.  (Though Kelley could have also handily beat him.  I only now am fully realizing that Kelley is a far superior player to Spencer.  And that Kelley versus Jeremy is the only real tough debate in this game.)  Good on Spencer for realizing how good Kelley's game was, (But not Jeremy's.)

- Those last two loud drum beats before Jeff reads the vote.  I love those.

- I loved the second tribal way better than the first.

 

IC:  I joked to myself that this weird fucking ball challenge might be good for the firefighter.  Juggling all those balls in the air.  I can't believe he actually won it.

 

TC:  I don't understand what Spencer is doing sometimes.  He talks too much.  You could see that Jeremy deliberately stayed incredibly quiet, whether he understood what was going to happen, or cared, or what.

Abi looked beautiful at every TC and her theatrics were hilarious.  

I noticed Tasha continuing to purposely misspell every person's name.  I.e. "Kelli"

 

So many funny things at the Final Tribal Council, I laughed at like 100 different things.

 

- So excited to hear Fishbach speak.  And I love his outfit!

- After one sentence of her speaking, I was like "Ohh.... Tasha."

- I was so excited to hear Kass speak to Tasha  (May I point out that Kass very much does not seem in the least bit bitter.  Neither does Ciera.  Both of them aligned with Spencer and would not vote for him.)

- Kimmie, that is all

- I thought Abi was carrying a clutch (it was notes)

- Jeremy's reaction to Wiglesworth's asking for a number between 1 and 10:  "Right now?"

- Savage solemnly nodding at Jeremy speaking!  HHhhahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

Jeff hugs Val (and not Jeremy) and says to name the kid Jeff.

Again, I wish that Jeff had touched so much more on how Jeremy played the perfect invisible game, that Stephen and Spencer didn't see how much of a threat Jeremy was, how everyone underestimated Jeremy, and how Jeremy used Joe as the perfect shield.  All of this continued to manifest itself at the Reunion.  I can't believe I've now watched 2 Survivor reunions about how great Joe is.  For Christ's sake!

 

Jeremy is brilliant;  I worship this man.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[iMonrey]

For the love of Criminy, Jeff Probst needs to get a room with Joe already. Joe, Joe, Joe. Waaayyyy too much time devoted to Joe on the reunion special. Is Joe really all that popular? I mean, I get that he's attractive, but this show has had far more attractive alpha male types in its 30 seasons. Joe just isn't that interesting IMO and really had zero game play other than winning immunity, both seasons he played. Why is Jeff making such an enormous fuss over Joe?

 

The reunions always drive me crazy anyway because Jeff fawns all over his man-crushes and pets and ignores everyone else. Same crap, different season.

[Miss Scarlet]

I can't decide if Spencer never had a chance because his social game was too bad all along or if he really screwed himself by his poor performances in the last few TCs/him not taking out Jeremy. Initially I would've thought the latter. Prior to the finale I thought Spencer had a decent chance of getting votes at FTC, even against Jeremy. But now I'm not so sure he ever really had a shot at all. At the very least it seems pretty clear that, as Skeeter22 stated, he never had a chance against Kelley or Keith,. And maybe not even against Kimmi.

Yeah, I was surprised by this because I thought a lot of the narrative we saw was "Spencer is so likable! Spencer is a nerd, but a sociable one!"

 

It's really funny that after taking a dislike to Stephen and working so hard to get him out, Spencer became the Stephen to Jeremy's JT.

 

It's supposed to be "Outwit, Outplay, Outlast." not outschmooze.

I feel that way too, but it hasn't been that way for a long time (if ever). That's why you'll hear confessionals from like Day 2 where players talk about how they want to work with so-and-so because they know they could beat them in the end. I always used to think "Doesn't it matter what each of you does to get there? What if this person who you think you can beat plays an amazing game?!", but it's true. The actual gameplay almost seems irrelevant at this point. 

Edited December 17, 2015 by Miss Scarlet

[Zuleikha]

Spencer outplayed Jeremy top to bottom and Jeremy had no thoughts that weren't given to him by Spencer.

Spencer didn't give Jeremy anything except a warning about Kimmi. We saw Jeremy consulted on every vote, and we saw him talking through his choices with his other alliance partners and even occasionally in confessionals by himself. We know Jeremy came in with a game plan to ally with players perceived as physically strong so that he wouldn't stand out, and then to surround himself with players loyal to him. And that's exactly what he did.

 

It's supposed to be "Outwit, Outplay, Outlast." not outschmooze.

Survivor has ALWAYS been outschmooze. The goal has always been get to the end with a jury full of people that are willing to vote for you. 

 

Audiences like big, showy moves because they're telegenic. We can appreciate Parvati pulling out double idols or Cirie lining up a 3/2/1 split or Joe winning his third immunity in a row. But being a calm, steady leader of an alliance or constantly reading/manipulating social dynamics isn't telegenic. Editing has a rough time showing the power of those games. But that's ultimately what wins. 

 

Spencer and Tasha stacked the jury pool with people who had literally told them that if Jeremy made it to the end, he would win. They were completely warned. In Tasha's case, I think she just didn't care (possibly because there was no scenario she could have won, although I think she would have at least gotten votes against some combination of Keith, Kimmi, or Abi).

 

In Spencer's case, I think it was hubris. He just couldn't believe that everyone wouldn't see him as the smartest guy in the room. But what he didn't realize is that what everyone saw instead is that Spencer thought of himself as the smartest guy in the room, who just couldn't listen to their warnings about what would happen.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Stephen said that many on the jury thought Tasha was doing Jeremy's dirty work.  Implying that the jury knew that Jeremy didn't have to do the work himself.  So why was he rewarded with a landslide vote?

Stephen of all people should have known the answer. The jurors vote for the person they hate the least.   STEPHEN did JT's dirty work for him on Tocantins, thus attracting the jury hostility to himself and giving the win to JT, the "golden boy" as he kept saying. I thought Jeremy's BEST moment in the reunion was when he interrupted Stephen's motormouth rant about golden boy Joe - to point out the obvious.  JEREMY was the golden boy of this season that Stephen had handed everything to, AGAIN.  Same goes for Spencer - no wonder he stopped watching the season.  All these strategic masterminds and they all focused on the WRONG golden boy.  Good for Jeremy, good luck to him and his family.

 

Becky Lee did Yul Kwon's dirty work - and got not a single vote, while Yul won the whole thing.  Russell Hantz did Natalie White's dirty work and led her to the win (all the funnier since he didn't realize she was playing him).  Big moves are one thing, but this really is a game of successful manipulation.

Edited December 17, 2015 by ratgirlagogo

[How Bout That]

 

Spencer's trying his best but has the personal growth story ever won anyone the million.

 

Heck, BRob never changed in all the seasons he played. That didn't stop Probst from brining him back and bringing him back until he finally found the right combination of idiot newbies and a steady diet of the kind of ICs that BRob likes best. The jury didn't care that he was the same box of rocks as he was his first season.

[tinypeanut]

I don't know if this has been addressed about the money but I know the winner gets a million dollars.  How much do the 2nd and 3rd win?  What do they win if they get no votes like what happened last night?  Do they share 2nd and 3rd prize money or get nothing?

[blackwing]

I think this jury was quietly one of the most bitter juries ever. It seems that in recent seasons juries have been much less bitter, voting for players like Natalie, Cochran and Tony who had outsmarted and blindsided many of them.

That said, keeping the jury from hating you has traditionally been an important aspect of Survivor and Jeremy did that extremely well.

I don't think they were so quiet.  During the TC where Keith was voted out, it was two votes Spencer, two votes Keith, one vote left.  When Jeff revealed that Keith was voted out, the camera immediately went to the jury.  There were more than one audible groans.  Then we had Assclown Savage shaking his head and clucking.  Kass slowly closing and opening her eyes.  Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera doing her famous eyeroll.  Kelly Wigglesworth closing her eyes.  Abi burying her head in her hands.  Stephen groaning.  The only two that didn't have a negative reaction were Joe and Kimmi.

 

It was obvious that they were all against Spencer.  I'm not sure if that's because they hated Spencer himself, or because they wanted Kelley and Keith to overcome the odds and take down the alliance that got so many of them out.

 

The TC where Spencer had immunity --- when all the votes were in, couldn't Spencer simply hand his immunity at that point to Jeremy?  There would obviously be no votes for him.  But this might be too late because it's too easy a play.

I don't think it works that way.  If someone is going to give their immunity necklace to someone else they have to do so BEFORE any votes are cast.  I think.  That's why this almost never happens.

[pricklypear]

Definitely loved this season. One of my favorites. A couple of things about last night:

 

I don't think Spencer was being a "bully." I for sure think he took a misstep in talking too much at TC. He did what my BIL (car salesman) would call "talking past the sale." He should have just said that Kelley would win if she made it to FTC and left it at that. Even my husband, when Spencer started talking again, was all, "Didn't he already say that?"

 

I really, really hope that Val being pregnant isn't what swayed the jury (and I don't think it was). I don't understand how someone choosing to have children makes someone more "deserving" than someone else. They need it more? Who's to say Spencer, Tasha, Kelley, Keith, or Kimmi didn't "need" it more? Maybe one of them was planning to open an orphanage with the money. Maybe one of them has a family member who needs life-saving surgery that would bankrupt them. Maybe one of them just wanted to travel the world with it. I just don't see how, with Jeremy and Val being presumably healthy, vibrant people and having a healthy, vibrant family, he "should" have it. And I really didn't understand why Val being pregnant was such a big secret and why it was such a BIG REVEAL at FTC. She is enjoying a healthy, seemingly uneventful pregnancy (and I'm glad for that). Two loving parents adding to their family isn't exactly earth-shattering.

 

I kind of understood voting blocs being different from alliances because of fluidity. An alliance is assumed to be voting together at each and every TC throughout the game (until the point that they have to start voting against each other). The voting blocs were groups of people who voted together in one TC but might not necessarily vote together at the next. There is no solid alliance, where players can count on (as much as you can count on in this game) each other from day to day. People are constantly scrambling to gather a group to get a majority vote going for each TC. That's, at least, how I understood the difference.