S02.E10: Palindrome

[lidarose9]

This show is a very specific send-up of a very specific time and place, told with a very specific point-of-view. The show is not about what makes sense or even what makes a good story. The characters are not meant to be realistic. They are walking archetypes. If we work too hard to press our 2015 expectation-templates over it, we miss the point. We're here for the sheer pleasure of watching this little morality tale, this parable, this parade of human folly marching across the cold northern plains. We do it a grave disservice by being too literal. 

 

I have a very sensitive sexism sensor and I have to say at no time did it go off during this show. Evah. Peggy is Madame Bovary crossed with Lucille Ball. 

 

I enjoyed every moment and am in awe of everybody who contributed to this show. Wow. Yes, this last episode was about denouement, like any good Greek tragedy. I am glad we got some closure, and I am so impressed they allowed (most of) our protagonists to survive. This show is full of surprises. 

 

I also want to say, testifying as one who was there. Those self-realization programs from the 1970s were *not* aimed exclusively at discontented housewives. It was equal opportunity brainwashing. Peggy wanted Ed to join her on her journey. It wasn't about leaving him behind. The co-worker woman was hitting her hard with the feminist agenda, but Peggy didn't want to dump Ed and become a bra-burner. She just wasn't happy and she wanted to be happy.

 

What made the big difference is the fact that Peggy is also the walking embodiment of self-involved narcissism taken to a comic extreme. Remember her basement? That is what was going on in the convo between her and Lou. She was continuing to view reality through her tiny little narrow lens fixated on me me me me me, and Lou was saying Earth to Peggy! It was hilarious! She was so single-mindedly consumed with her own issues, she was literally blind to anybody else's. Her character was absolutely fascinating, and I have to say I was blown away by Kirsten Dunst. She was just fantastic. I just can't say enough good about it. She had a hard sell with a loo-lah like Peggy -- to make her crazy but not too crazy. Really awesome acting. 

[Bannon]

This show is a very specific send-up of a very specific time and place, told with a very specific point-of-view. The show is not about what makes sense or even what makes a good story. The characters are not meant to be realistic. They are walking archetypes. If we work too hard to press our 2015 expectation-templates over it, we miss the point. We're here for the sheer pleasure of watching this little morality tale, this parable, this parade of human folly marching across the cold northern plains. We do it a grave disservice by being too literal. 

 

I have a very sensitive sexism sensor and I have to say at no time did it go off during this show. Evah. Peggy is Madame Bovary crossed with Lucille Ball. 

 

I enjoyed every moment and am in awe of everybody who contributed to this show. Wow. Yes, this last episode was about denouement, like any good Greek tragedy. I am glad we got some closure, and I am so impressed they allowed (most of) our protagonists to survive. This show is full of surprises. 

 

I also want to say, testifying as one who was there. Those self-realization programs from the 1970s were *not* aimed exclusively at discontented housewives. It was equal opportunity brainwashing. Peggy wanted Ed to join her on her journey. It wasn't about leaving him behind. The co-worker woman was hitting her hard with the feminist agenda, but Peggy didn't want to dump Ed and become a bra-burner. She just wasn't happy and she wanted to be happy.

 

What made the big difference is the fact that Peggy is also the walking embodiment of self-involved narcissism taken to a comic extreme. Remember her basement? That is what was going on in the convo between her and Lou. She was continuing to view reality through her tiny little narrow lens fixated on me me me me me, and Lou was saying Earth to Peggy! It was hilarious! She was so single-mindedly consumed with her own issues, she was literally blind to anybody else's. Her character was absolutely fascinating, and I have to say I was blown away by Kirsten Dunst. She was just fantastic. I just can't say enough good about it. She had a hard sell with a loo-lah like Peggy -- to make her crazy but not too crazy. Really awesome acting. 

I have a hard time choosing which actor was best in this show; there are, at a minimum, a half dozen great candidates, just in the major roles, and the supporting parts were every bit as rich. I have to go back to "Deadwood" or "The Wire" to think of a show that had such a gigantic volume of great acting.

[Rockstar99435]

Well I'm confused.  I thought the Terminator was sent by KC to take out Mike and the remaining Kitchen brother for failing to conquer the Gerharts.  But Mike took out the Terminator and the T's two assistants instead.  So, even though Mike failed to personally destroy the Gerharts, he's given a job by the KC corporate people.  Was that little office and lowly position a "punishment" for not succeeding at his task?

 

I'm really confused by Mike's ending. I don't understand who he works for or what his job is now. He was a drug dealer and hit man, right? Those aren't exactly office jobs. What exactly is he going to do all day now? Fill out expense reports? For who? What info is he going to put in his reports? Names of dealers with dates, amounts spent, places of exchanges, etc? All the info the Feds will need to arrest everyone in a simple, easy-to-read excel chart? That seems like a very bad idea. Are his coworkers all going to be former hitmen or are there also going to be people without criminal backgrounds, but degrees in Accounting? Do those guys know that they're actually drug dealers? Seeing him end up in that tiny little office was such a cool ending last night, but now that I've had time to think about it, it doesn't make any sense.

[SlipperyPete]

I have to say that the Lou/Peggy sexism argument is rather frustrating. It reminds me of Mookie's actions in Do the Right Thing. People are always asking whether or not Mookie did the right thing by smashing a window with a trashcan when a man was just straight up murdered in the streets by cops in front of a crowd of witnesses.

 

In this case how many pointless deaths did Peggy's actions cause? More than 30?

[AuntiePam]

 

When Lou and Hank found the blood soaked money in the road, Hank found a shoe in the tree. Why that was there bewilders me but usually a shoe up that high is just because of a prank.

 

I've heard that getting hit by a car will knock the victim out of his shoes.  I've seen photos of accident scenes with shoes in the road.

 

Rockstar, I'm confused about that too -- what Mike's job will be.  I suppose he's at an upper level where no one gets their hands dirty.  KC is probably like the Barksdale organization in The Wire -- they've made so much money, they're spinning off into legitimate businesses.  Their trucks are hauling laundry appliances now, instead of drugs.  Didn't that happen with prohibition?  Shipping companies went from transporting bootleg liquor to honest cargo when prohibition was repealed. 

[Dev F]

But Peggy didn't even try to "do it all" because she didn't want to.

 

She took birth control on the down low and lied to Ed about it.

 

Right, but she thought she should want to have it all -- that she should be able to be "a wife and a mother and this self-made career woman," and that Ed would think less of her if she proved unwilling or unable. Hence the lying.

 

In retrospect, I think Peggy's main chance to go down a less destructive path came and went in "The Gift of the Magi." That's when she had a chance to say, I can't do this with Ed, so I'm going to do it without him. It's not just a cute callback, I don't think, that the scene where Peggy packs her bags and goes to pick up the car is scored to "Let's Find Each Other Tonight." The road is calling to her, saying don't hesitate, don't be like those other dreamers, take a chance on me. That was the moment when she could've truly found herself -- but instead she convinced herself to keep dreaming, to keep trying to have it all with Ed. And the O. Henry ending is a sardonic illustration of just how futile that decision will turn out to be.

 

Come to think of it, that's why Peggy is so mesmerized by the climactic scene in "Operation Eagle's Nest" -- because it's showing her exactly what she deluded herself into believing all along. Even if her and Ed's relationship is grievously wounded, and it seems obvious to anyone that they can't possibly survive, if they just stick together and trust in the power of their love, they'll miraculously be saved. That's Peggy's fatal flaw: not that she gave up on being a good little wife and mother, but that she decided she didn't have to make that choice, because surely the world is clear-cut and fair like an old-fashioned movie and won't make her do anything so unpleasant.

 

Which is how she serves as counterpoint to Betsy, who's constantly confronted with how unfair the world is, and is ultimately able to make peace with it.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Dev F

[The Wild Sow]

 

Finally for now: Peggy's idea of getting away or retiring was to be in prison at Alcatraz? An island paradise as prisons go, I'm sure.

Alcatraz -- that closed in 1963?!

 

The prison that's just north of San Francisco now (and in 1979) is San Quentin.  Which is a state prison, not federal.  Not to mention, it's a men's institution.

[Celera]

Having just watched the finale, I have to say I was very impressed by the Lou/Peggy conversation.  

 

For context, I was just 21 years old in 1979, newly married and expecting my first child.  Over the years I have actually "had it all" in the sense that I was a wife and mother, then a single mother, and built a meaningful career that makes me, if not wealthy, at least  self-sufficient.  And I'm quite happy to consider myself a feminist.  As it happens, I also grew up in Minnesota and now live in California.

 

Listening to Peggy, my thought was that sure, those were common sentiments for women at the time (and still today.)  It is tough to have it all, and there are a lot of women/people who are not content to have a humdrum middle class family life.  But what was Peggy doing about that, exactly?  She was actively resisting becoming a mother, she was not doing anything remarkable as a wife, and she wasn't doing anything in particular about building a big career.  She cut hair, and then went home and piled up magazines about career goals that she wasn't really moving forward on.  "California" was just an idea, she had no apparent plan, as if going to California would somehow magically make life fulfilling.

 

Trust me, it doesn't.  And if you do get to have it all, you'd best be prepared to do some of your own heavy lifting.

 

Lou's story, on the other hand, was about people -- men and women both -- in actually desperate times, taking extraordinary risks and making extraordinary sacrifices to escape disaster and have some faint hope.  A mother threw her baby out of a helicopter, just hoping someone would catch it, because that was the best alternative she had in that moment.  Note that Lou choked up first on that part of the story. Mothers as well as fathers are supposed to protect their families. Note, btw, that Lou's story literally did happen during the fall of Saigon.

 

Floyd was a wonderful character.  Yes, she took over leadership of the family, and ended up dying.  But that's a very superficial analysis.  She took over leadership half-heartedly -- she really just wanted to do whatever her husband would have done, and she wanted to appease Dodd instead of going with her own instincts.  In the end, instead of protecting her family by working with Kansas City, she chose war.  She chose to put her family's lives on the line for a bit of money, which...well we've seen before how that turns out.  She had feminist instincts in there somewhere, and maybe if she had been a true feminist, or a true and moral protector of her family, things would have turned out better.  

 

 

 

 

[Hobo.PassingThru]

 

Alcatraz -- that closed in 1963?!

Whoops! Well that clears that up. Since no one else in this thread mentioned a particular one, I thought Alcatraz was the only one. But, now that you mention it, I have heard of the other one.

 

've heard that getting hit by a car will knock the victim out of his shoes.  I've seen photos of accident scenes with shoes in the road.

 

While I guess the answer would be clear if the kid was shown with one or no shoes, I didn't notice it. I guess it could have been his shoe, after all. So, I guess that would sort of make the porch decorations ironic. Kinda.

[shapeshifter]

If anyone ultimately understands the plight of having a career and raising a child, it turns out it's Lou and not Peggy.

I would Tweet those words, but I'm too tired and I don't think those who see the writing as sexist would be mollified.

I was glad that shit cop (don't remember his name) made it out alive and he and Lou were able to have a respectful, cop to cop conversation at the end.  I think shit cop appreciated that.

And even more, I think Lou was supremely satisfied being able to tell Shit Cop that he was taking the prisoner back to his own jurisdictional area rather than having to shoot SC for any reason.

Ed did suggest at some point that when he bought the butcher shop and they had kids then maybe Peggy could also buy the salon. He understood she wanted more but he didn't understand what she wanted.

Maybe Ed understood exactly what Peggy wanted, but Peggy didn't know herself--having not yet been fully actualized and all that, heh. I was about the same age as Peggy in 1979 when gave birth and became a single mother. I think women's roles were accurately portrayed, so I'm not going to shoot the messenger. Plus, if I shoot him, how's he going to bring us another wonderful season?

[MsMollyD]

So I originally read the Buffalo guy's question to Mike, "who are you, Otto's kid by the maid," as just generic racism. "Oh so you're taking this over? You don't LOOK like a Gerhardt," but as a commentator above pointed out it actually was probably confirmation of my theory from last week that Hanzee was Otto's bastard kid and everyone knew it. If that really was Hanzee's mom that Mike let go in "act of mercy," I really wish we had gotten to see more of what it must have been like for her and Hanzee to live in that house all those years. I mean, we can imagine, but...

Poor Mike. Thought he was set to be King of the World, but he ended up one swingline stapler short of working in a cube farm. "Typewriters! They're not just for women anymore!"

I thought Peggy's speech in the squad car was meant to show us the extent of her delusion. All the societal pressures she described were and are very real, but she also never saw that the way she ended up where she ended up WAS through her own choices. Driving home with Rye in the windshield. Not taking Lou's advice to fess up, because the Gerhardts were coming. Stealing all that toilet paper from work. A woman who could taze Dodd Gerhardt and truss him up like a Christmas goose could have hit the road for California if she wanted to. She just never saw all the choices she was making as choices. And so people died.

Edited December 16, 2015 by MsMollyD

[Lonesome Rhodes]

One of the arcs I most love is that Karl ended up being even better than Johnny Cochrane!  JC only needed to convince inner city minority jurors who were predisposed to not trusting the L.A. prosecutors .   Karl had to get past Bear, who we have seen, pretty much NEVER listens to reason of any kind!  That we later saw him to be quite a mensch with Betsy was delicious frosting on this cake.

 

 

What crimes exactly can Peggy be charged with?

At a bare minimum, conspiracy before and after the fact as to the murder of Rye.  Later, they would be subject to any number of charges related to fleeing custody.  Also, federal kidnapping of Dodd across state lines.   

 

Morally, they are most culpable for everything that happened as a direct result of the creation of the "Butcher of Laverne."  Without the BoL, there would only have been the crime family war.  If they had simply reported the hitting of Rye in a timely manner, a significant amount of the bloodshed would have been avoided.  Certainly not all, but many.  The last tragic example being the poor driver of the car in Sioux Falls who was between Ohanzee and the BoL.

 

In gratitude, I want to thank PTV for offering us such a robust discussion in this forum.  I'm sure it's been difficult for the staff to sit back with such wildly divergent passion was being expressed.  I am certain that we are all the better for having the opportunity to experience such.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Lonesome Rhodes

[MsMollyD]

Re: the episode title, Too bad they Might Be Giants are totally the wrong time period for this series, because I Palindrome I would have killed it as a soundtrack for Floyd and Dodd's relationship. http://tmbw.net/wiki/Lyrics:I_Palindrome_I

[EmZeeGee]

In gratitude, I want to thank PTV for offering us such a robust discussion in this forum.  I'm sure it's been difficult for the staff to sit back with such wildly divergent passion was being expressed.  I am certain that we are all the better for having the opportunity to experience such.

Absolutely! Where else on the internet would one find relating The Terminator to a show set in late 70s Minnesota and South Dakota? I'm only glad that it managed to make some sort of sense in the end.

 

So I originally read the Buffalo guy's question to Mike, "who are you, Otto's kid by the maid," as just generic racism. "Oh so you're taking this over? You don't LOOK like a Gerhardt," but as a commentator above pointed out it actually was probably confirmation of my theory from last week that Hanzee was Otto's bastard kid and everyone knew it. If that really was Hanzee's mom that Mike let go in "act of mercy," I really wish we had gotten to see more of what it must have been like for her and Hanzee to live in that house all those years. I mean, we can imagine, but...

In a THR interview, Zahn McClarnon mentions how there were supposed to be scenes between him and the Native housemaid, but they never got around to them. How I wish we got to see them relate to one another. The whole interview is a great read by the way.

[GodsBeloved]

Was Peggy even handcuffed?  I missed that if she was.  When Lou got out of the car to make the telephone call to Betsy, I was expecting Peggy to try to get out of the car and run, and then get hit by a car and the driver speeds off.   

I don't think she was cuffed. I also thought Peggy would try to make a run for it when Lou said stay put.

Skynet wouldn't have sent the Terminator back had Sarah not given birth to John, knowing what would happen, and had John not led the resistance to victory. 

And Kyle Reese would not have been sent back if Arnold hadn't and there'd be no John Connor.

 

As Sarah Connor said, this stuff can drive you crazy!! LOL

[ChipBach]

Betsy never tried to go beyond her "station," though, and there was never any suggestion that Betsy might apply her abilities in a professional capacity and get a job doing investigative work. Lou and Hank's cheery recognition of Betsy's superior intelligence and sleuthing abilities smacks of paternalistic condescension, since they knew and she knew she wouldn't be competing against them anytime soon. Had Betsy been approached about bringing her talents to bear in a professional environment, they might not have been so jovial and so free with the compliments about her obvious superiority.

 

It's entirely possible that she happened to like the life she choose.  She seemed to be fulfilled and happy.  Lou and Hank simply recognized her intelligence, I saw nothing that would smack of condescension.  Betsy herself spoke to the notion of someone else telling her how she should feel about her life when Noreen brought up the subject - "people who think that don't have a six year old girl."  

 

Peggy on the other hand wanted anything but the life she felt she was painted into although she could not really verbalize what she wanted other than independence.  Although I believe she vacillated between the security of a life with Ed and an independent life in California. Ed recognized that they were a poor match at the end.  He was pretty clear that he wanted a simple family life

[Ottis]

Maybe I'm the only one who thought the finale was a let down. The series went out with a whimper. Mike's ending was amusing but made little sense. Hank's "communication pictures" didn't explain what was in the room. The meaning, or perhaps existence, of the UFO is unclear. Peggy is a despicable, self-centered nut.

 

I liked Betsy's vision, that was the best part of the episode. I also liked how the show eventually always showed us who died.

[Magic]

 

Mike told his boss that the Undertaker never showed up.  Even if KC didn't believe that, they can't prove anything.

 

I have wondered how all the blood in the hotel room Mike was renting could be hidden/ignored by the hotel, cops or KC.

After all, you would think the KC guys would have some interest in finding out what happened to some of their main hit men, with a threat like "we're sending the undertaker" you would think that they would have some interest in finding out what happened to him when he "disappears". 

Since Mike was renting the room, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out that Mike had something to do with their disappearance after seeing the blood from three guys, there is no way it could all be cleaned up.

[teddysmom]

It is possible for a show to depict sexism without being itself sexist, which is what this show is doing.

 

 

It is not sexist to point out that while Peggy's issues about how women were/are expected to do it all and feels like being set up to fail are valid, there's a time and place for everything. 

 

Several people were just killed, including her husband.  Maybe not the exact right moment to get on the soapbox. 

[ChipBach]

Maybe I'm the only one who thought the finale was a let down. The series went out with a whimper. Mike's ending was amusing but made little sense. Hank's "communication pictures" didn't explain what was in the room. The meaning, or perhaps existence, of the UFO is unclear. Peggy is a despicable, self-centered nut.

 

I liked Betsy's vision, that was the best part of the episode. I also liked how the show eventually always showed us who died.

 

I don't know if this was already mentioned but those same symbols appeared over the bar that Hanzee shot up.  I think they were carved in wood.  (Can't remember what episode that was actually)

[pasdetrois]

Maybe Hanzee's mother was the cook/maid whom we saw in the kitchen during Mike's "visit."

[Ohwell]

And even more, I think Lou was supremely satisfied being able to tell Shit Cop that he was taking the prisoner back to his own jurisdictional area rather than having to shoot SC for any reason.

 

Oh I don't think Shit Cop minded Lou taking crazy Peggy back AT. ALL.

[ChipBach]

Oh I don't think Shit Cop minded Lou taking crazy Peggy back AT. ALL.

Shit Cop actually redeemed himself I thought.  He could have just boogied from the hotel after he came to and he followed the sound of the shots and supported Lou as he went after Hanzee.  Also, he had a true affection for his chief.  He was aces in my book.

[SoothingDave]

 

As for Peggy, sure, she was the author of her own misfortune, but Lou could have pointed out that her desire for independence could have been addressed in a more constructive way, or that there were other ways of pursuing the freedom she craved. He could have pointed out that her fate and Ed's had nothing to do with feminism and everything to do with her shitty decisions and her inability to face reality. Instead, he eulogized Ed for "protecting" Peggy--when in fact she did most of the protecting--and engaged in philosophical musing about men's "privilege" of protecting helpless womenfolk--which is especially rich in a series where the men had a talent for getting themselves and the people around them killed, and where Dodd and Otto's brand of toxic masculinity seems to have led to the Gerhardts' downfall--all the while sneering at Peggy's heartfelt outburst about being trapped in her life with a curt "PEOPLE ARE DEAD." It was some sexist garbage.

 

Ed was protecting her.  He comes home from work, sits down to his Hamburger Helper only to discover Peggy has left a dead man in her windshield.  Except, he's not completely dead.  Only mostly dead.  So, he kills the guy and disposes of the body.

 

He did that to protect her.  That's what a man does for his wife (and, what a wife does for her husband).  it's not sexist to note that the crazy lady is crazy.  

 

 

Excellent comments and observations Eyes High. I enjoyed reading them. However, I think Hawley isn't commenting on current male/female roles in society. I believe he was having us see Peggy and Lou's perspective from 1979, when it was still new for women to venture outside of the traditional housewife and mother roles. Peggy felt trapped and why wouldn't she? If a woman wanted more than to be just a wife and mother, then she was judged by many as being a bad or damaged "woman". We now know 35 years later that women can be both excellent mothers and have successful careers at the same time. Hawley is reminding us that we've come a long way.

 

Peggy wasn't judged as "bad" or "damaged" for wanting more for her life.  She isn't a symbol of female empowerment which is being denigrated or kept down by "the Patriarchy."

 

She's crazy.  She's not a role model.  In searching for a feminist narrative, you are missing the entire picture.  Mike Milligan isn't all black people.  Hanzee isn't all Native Americans.  Peggy isn't all women.  

 

Lou isn't a sexist for shutting her up when she still remained focused on herself and making excuses for her behavior.  He would have shut up Ed if Ed was doing the same thing.  

[shapeshifter]

It is not sexist to point out that while Peggy's issues about how women were/are expected to do it all and feels like being set up to fail are valid, there's a time and place for everything. 

 

Several people were just killed, including her husband.  Maybe not the exact right moment to get on the soapbox. 

Ah-ha! Now I understand the cries of sexism. I didn't think about this context (even though I'm female) because I was looking at it from the viewpoint of 1979's (and even today's!) attitudes toward mentally ill criminals. Thanks for the post!

[justaliza]

SO- one thing I haven't seen mentioned anywhere: Hank's communication system idea (and Hawleyt's whole theory about miscommunication causing war) is VERY similar to the true story of Charles Bliss and his intent to create a universal language of symbols. I was lucky enough to very recently hear an amazing episode of Radiolab telling his story... if you're a Fargo person, listen to this (and even if you're not- it's pretty amazing). http://www.radiolab.org/story/257194-man-became-bliss/

[Eyes High]

I don't understand the suggestion that critics of the sexism in Fargo are dragging feminism into it. Hawley deliberately dragged feminism into it. He explicitly put feminist beliefs and concepts into the mouths of several characters (Floyd, Constance, Peggy, etc.):

 

1. Constance urging Peggy not to be a prisoner of "we."

2. Peggy saying that women can be anything these days (and, in a snide bit of humour from the writers, being unable to name any examples, like, come on, assholes.)

3. Floyd telling Simone that gender roles don't need to bind women any more (in another snide bit of humour from the writers, this speech comes right before Mike attacks courtesy of Simone's betrayal).

4. Peggy babbling in the car about how difficult it is for women these days to have it all, and to be wives, mothers, and career women.

 

Moreover, I've even seen it suggested upthread that Constance is Season 2's Malvo, which equates a woman urging another woman to pursue her own dreams and goals with a man urging another man to flout all of society's rules and to murder other people. If anyone seriously considers those two things as in any way remotely equivalent, I'd suggest that pretty much proves my point right there: they have taken away from the show that feminism (as embodied by Constance's suggestions to Peggy) is a corrupting force on par with Malvo, and they equate a woman's desire for autonomy with a man's desire to disregard all societal prohibitions and rules (including the rule against murder). That is fucked up.

 

Hawley didn't have to bring feminism into it; in fact, there are plenty of 1970s period pieces which completely ignore the women's rights movement. He chose to do this. Once he makes that choice, the manner in which he deals with feminist themes deserves the same sort of careful consideration his treatment of his POC characters has received, especially when he uses feminist beliefs as a punchline or frames feminist thought as the basis for a character's downfall. Critics have carefully examined the Hanzee storyline for the possibility for racist motifs (the stoic, silent, mystically powerful Indian cliche). Hawley's treatment of the women in the storyline warrants the same level of scrutiny.

 

I would have been fine with the second season had Hawley completely ignored any overt or explicit mention of feminist thinking and instead given us strong, fully developed, powerful female characters. A great example of this were Peggy and Joan on Mad Men; they didn't recite feminist philosophy, but their character arcs and endgames embodied the goals of feminism. Nor were their desires for control over their own lives treated as some sort of quaint delusion or as the product of a sinister influence. When bad things happened to them, there was no suggestion by the writers that it was some sort of "punishment" for daring to want to have some control over their own lives. There was no suggestion that when female characters were unhappy with their roles in 1960s society that they just needed to get over it and be content with their lot, or that they were trying to "fix something that wasn't broken." Nor was nuclear family domesticity idealized in of itself, as it is in Fargo. In Mad Men, just as in real life, the homemaker characters (Trudy, Betty, etc) were no happier or more fulfilled than the career women; they had their own shit to deal with (philandering, controlling husbands, asshole children, etc.). 

 

Hawley could have left feminism out of it altogether. Peggy's downfall could have been based on something that had nothing to do with gender (greed, love affair gone bad, thrillseeking, whatever). Instead, Hawley gave us this garbage, where he treats feminism as a punchline at best, a dangerous delusion or a sinister force tempting characters down the path of evil at worst. You'd better believe I'm going to call him on it. 

Edited December 16, 2015 by Eyes High

[Ohwell]

I wonder if they served Hamburger Helper in prison?  Make Peggy eat it every day.

[Spartan Girl]

 

Lou isn't a sexist for shutting her up when she still remained focused on herself and making excuses for her behavior.  He would have shut up Ed if Ed was doing the same thing.  

I agree with this.  I felt like Lou's disgust for Peggy mirrored Molly's disgust for Lester.  The two were exactly alike in their complete self-absorbedness and their lack of empathy for anyone else in their commitment to embracing their self-made victimhood.  The only real difference was that that the way Kirsten Dunst played her, there really was something mentally off about Peggy from the beginning.  Lester had no such excuse: the only thing he was missing was a soul.

[Melissa56789]

 

I have wondered how all the blood in the hotel room Mike was renting could be hidden/ignored by the hotel, cops or KC.

 

I'm sure Mike and the Kitchen Brother(s) had access to "cleaners" (independent contractors) who took care of the blood, etc.   (think the original french movie La Femme Nikita)

 

Or like in John Wick - he called for a "dinner reservation" for 3.  :-)

[iMonrey]

I'm really confused by Mike's ending. I don't understand who he works for or what his job is now. He was a drug dealer and hit man, right? Those aren't exactly office jobs. What exactly is he going to do all day now? Fill out expense reports? For who? What info is he going to put in his reports? Names of dealers with dates, amounts spent, places of exchanges, etc? All the info the Feds will need to arrest everyone in a simple, easy-to-read excel chart? That seems like a very bad idea. Are his coworkers all going to be former hitmen or are there also going to be people without criminal backgrounds, but degrees in Accounting? Do those guys know that they're actually drug dealers? Seeing him end up in that tiny little office was such a cool ending last night, but now that I've had time to think about it, it doesn't make any sense.

 

No, it really doesn't. Even allowing that there's such a thing as a "Kansas City Mafia" (which is somewhat laughable to begin with), and assuming they hide their illegal activities behind some sort of legitimate-looking business in an office building, the job description being given to Mike by the supervisor in no way reflected the type of work Mike was obviously experienced at. And if this shell company does indeed have number crunchers and a paper trail in an effort to legitimize their business for show, what on earth makes them think Mike is in any way qualified to do that sort of work? That's something you hire lawyers and accountants for, not hit men. The scene was clearly written for irony without any consideration of logic - but then I've had that complaint about all the scenes with Mike Milligan. They're showy, and pseudo-intellectual, but wholly unrealistic. 

[Desperately Random]

 

Hawley could have left feminism out of it altogether. Peggy's downfall could have been based on something that had nothing to do with gender (greed, love affair gone bad, thrillseeking, whatever). Instead, Hawley gave us this garbage, where he treats feminism as a punchline at best, a dangerous delusion or a sinister force tempting characters down the path of evil at worst. You'd better believe I'm going to call him on it. 

IMO, her downfall was based on something that had nothing to do with her gender. It had to do with the fact the she was selfish and narcissistic, which are two characteristics that can apply to either gender. Peggy's downfall started when she hit Rye and decided to drive home instead of getting help. That decision had nothing to do with her gender but solely with her own choice to do what she thought would be easier for her. Driving home with a body sticking out of your windshield would have been a bad choice no matter who was behind the wheel, man or woman. Peggy then continued to make bad decisions because she refused to face the reality of what she had done. Again, nothing to do with feminism or sexism. Just one person's bad judgment based on their own narcissism and the consequences that resulted because of it.

[Rockstar99435]

At a bare minimum, conspiracy before and after the fact as to the murder of Rye.  Later, they would be subject to any number of charges related to fleeing custody.  Also, federal kidnapping of Dodd across state lines.   

 

But can they prove any of that? There's no evidence that Rye survived the original hit with the car. For that matter, there's no evidence that Peggy was the one driving. She can claim that Ed killed Rye with the car and then cleaned it up and she begged him not to but he threatened her, so she had to go along with him. Peggy wasn't under arrest at her house when Dodd and the others showed up so it wasn't a crime for her to run at that point. (Ed is another story-he definitely fled custody). She can claim that while she knocked out Dodd to protect herself, it was Ed who kidnapped him. She did run from the hotel, but I think any jury would understand that Peggy and Ed had a reasonable belief that their lives were in danger from Hanzee and fled in terror. (Plus- to be found guilty of that, the Shitty Cop is going to have to admit under oath that a girl who was in his custody got the drop on him and knocked him out. I don't see that guy agreeing to do that. Admitting to Lou is one thing. He knows Lou already hates him. Admitting it to a room full of judges, lawyers, reporters, co-workers, etc? I find it much more believable that he makes up some story about how he told them to run and save themselves.) Almost all of the witnesses are dead, and the few that remain didn't actually see Peggy do anything. Lou has his suspicions, and we know the truth, but in terms of actually evidence. What do they have? All she has to do is use the prosecutor's racism and sexism to get him to see her as a weak, stupid woman who was used by her husband and terrorized by a scary brown man who just killed 20 cops.

[GodsBeloved]

One of the arcs I most love is that Karl ended up being even better than Johnny Cochrane!  JC only needed to convince inner city minority jurors who were predisposed to not trusting the L.A. prosecutors .   Karl had to get past Bear, who we have seen, pretty much NEVER listens to reason of any kind!  

And he did it while slightly inebriated!!

[teddysmom]

One of the arcs I most love is that Karl ended up being even better than Johnny Cochrane!  JC only needed to convince inner city minority jurors who were predisposed to not trusting the L.A. prosecutors .   Karl had to get past Bear, who we have seen, pretty much NEVER listens to reason of any kind! 

And he did it while slightly inebriated!!

 

 

I'm thinking Karl is Ron Swanson's uncle from Minnesota. Moved up there after college, gave Ron his love of breakfast foods and distrust of the government. 

[Dev F]

I don't understand the suggestion that critics of the sexism in Fargo are dragging feminism into it. Hawley deliberately dragged feminism into it. He explicitly put feminist beliefs and concepts into the mouths of several characters (Floyd, Constance, Peggy, etc.):

 

1. Constance urging Peggy not to be a prisoner of "we."

 

But Constance's advice ultimately proves correct, and Peggy is destroyed because she refuses to take it -- because she continues to be a prisoner of the (rather antifeminist) delusion that her and Ed's love will magically save them.

 

3. Floyd telling Simone that gender roles don't need to bind women any more (in another snide bit of humour from the writers, this speech comes right before Mike attacks courtesy of Simone's betrayal).

 

So Floyd's feminist assurances are upended by the deeply and tragically antifeminist actions of her granddaughter, who measures her own worth only in her ability to trade her body for the protection of men. I'm not sure how that reflects badly on Floyd or her advice -- which is, like Constance's, ultimately proven correct. After all, baked into the larger story is the notion that there's "no such thing as men's work, women's work anymore" -- that a six-year-old girl can grow up to become a police officer just like her father.

 

And I do see an affirmation of feminism in Betsy's glimpse of that world to come. In her dream, the primary focus is not on her daughter's role as a wife or mother but on Molly bonding with her dad, succeeding in school, becoming a person "of accomplishment, of contentment." It's Lou who assumes the traditionally feminine role, validated by the achievements of the children and grandchildren who surround him. It's a quiet sort of feminism, but I wouldn't expect anything else from a series that's all about the virtue of quiet competence over grand gestures and public acclaim.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Dev F

[Ottis]

I don't understand the suggestion that critics of the sexism in Fargo are dragging feminism into it. Hawley deliberately dragged feminism into it. He explicitly put feminist beliefs and concepts into the mouths of several characters (Floyd, Constance, Peggy, etc.):

 

 

I'm glad that I watched this show without any awareness of all this.

 

I wonder if they served Hamburger Helper in prison?  Make Peggy eat it every day.

 

 

I can't believe we never came back to watching someone eat dinner made of ground Rye. Kept expecting that.

[Ohwell]

I can't believe we never came back to watching someone eat dinner made of ground Rye. Kept expecting that.

Oh that would have been...supremely gross.  But awesome. 

[meep.meep]

I don't know if this was already mentioned but those same symbols appeared over the bar that Hanzee shot up.  I think they were carved in wood.  (Can't remember what episode that was actually)

 

They were also in the convenience store near the cabin at the lake, underneath the picture of the owner, his wife, and the red car.

[Hobo.PassingThru]

 

No, it really doesn't. Even allowing that there's such a thing as a "Kansas City Mafia" (which is somewhat laughable to begin with), and assuming they hide their illegal activities behind some sort of legitimate-looking business in an office building,

While I'm unsure if there still is one, in the 1980s there were instances in Kansas City and in other non-Chicago cities in the Midwest that were linked to the mob. There were mafia families and I suppose wannabe families. If you are interested, you may want to look it up in newspaper articles from the 70s and the 80s. I'm not going to get lost in a search hole so I won't.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Hobo.PassingThru

[tennisgurl]

So, here are my thoughts on Peggy, Lou, and the car ride. 

 

Peggy has some genuine gripes, and I dont think the show played her as a completely unsympathetic character. She is clearly unhappy, and wanting to better yourself is not a bad thing, and I dont think the show is trying to sell us on that. Where all her problems come from, is her selfishness. Right from the start, she could have easily called someone to report she had hit Rye. Hell, he was not even really dead when she ran him over. But that was an inconvenience for her. She used all her and Eds money for a seminar, without bothering to tell him. And in the end, she blamed the guy she hit for the whole mess, and started talking about going to the jail by the ocean. Now, there is a question of whether this is just being selfish, or if Peggy suffers from some kind of mental illness, that creates some kind of tunnel vision, where she has her plans, and her dreams, and NOTHING, even dead bodies, will stop her. Or maybe its a combination of both. 

 

Lou has no idea how to relate to that. Lou does not need to self actualize, or worry about being his "best self". Maybe it is because he is a man, maybe its because he is content with his life, maybe he is just sick of her, and this whole mess. Note, he only gets curt with her when she starts blaming Rye for this whole mess. Which, he did just murder a bunch of people, so he is far from blameless, but Peggy is the one who hit him. She is not blameless, like she seems to think. I feel like there is certainly more sympathy for, say, Lester from last season, who proved to be a monster in sheeps clothing. Peggy was an unhappy, "touched" person, who made a lot of terrible choices, but I do not at all think she was a monster, nor do I think the series is unsympathetic to her, at least completely.

 

 Lou and Peggy are on totally different frequencies. Peggy still has her tunnel vision, where she still feels she can be self actualized, and where this whole thing had to have some kind of point to it. Lou just sees that people are dead. Because of series of terrible decisions that Peggy made.    

 

At least, those are my thoughts right now, they could easily change if I think about it more. Its just a great scene to chew on. 

[Hobo.PassingThru]

 

don't understand the suggestion that critics of the sexism in Fargo are dragging feminism into it. Hawley deliberately dragged feminism into it. He explicitly put feminist beliefs and concepts into the mouths of several characters (Floyd, Constance, Peggy, etc.):

To be honest, while I did see a lot of attempts at bringing up feminism, and in the cases of the characters of Hanzee and Mike Milligan, while watching the show, I didn't see it anymore than acknowledging the struggles of the characters.

 

I think what Peggy said in that soliloquy to Lou was correct. Her character was as right as rain in what she said. But, the problem was she was talking about someone else, not her situation. She really seemed incapable of seeing her situation. Her character was being very inflexible in her thinking. 

 

As a contrast, the conversation Betsy had with  babysitter/ helper, (Norrel? Norrie?) Well, Betsy was pretty inflexible about her thinking but she did zing Camus pretty good. The babysitter seemed to be open minded to what Betsy was saying. Considering she was dancing with nihilism, that flexibility in thinking seemed positive.

 

A lot of the characters in the story who were not flexible in their thinking-- who were monomaniacal in their actions-- died, like Dodd, or didn't get their desired rewards, like Mike.

Contrast that to Lou, who had to grow and accept circumstances and Hank, who had to accept similar circumstances to being a single-parent years before.

 

Peggy was not willing to see what was right before her, or, right next to her, or, if there was something or someone there,  she would ignore if unless she could poke it with a knife or the butt of a gun. Well, I take that back, she did become engrossed with that Reagan movie.... all while ignoring the fact that Dodd somehow got loose from that tremendous amount of rope. So, her immersion in fantasy got the best of her. The magazines were the boldest indicators of that immersion.

 

I wish she could have been actually actualized, but, I'm convinced she could understand it only as it applies to someone else and not to her current or future situation. That is the character.

[Stratego]

Peggy lived in a fantasy world and used whatever means of denial and deception necessary.  Refer to the car accident:  we saw her motoring, smiling and carefree (is this actualizing?) in pitch-black night, during winter.  She hardly even slowed-down when she approached Rye indicated how distracted was her driving.  Experienced Winter drivers in Minnesota (and elsewhere) are very aware of the danger under those conditions.  (Recall her statement to Ed about "black ice" when they are trying to stage an accident to cover-up her accident? ).  Peggy knows winter driving dangers.  

 

Peggy chooses to not report this accident because she is convinced that it would prevent her from attending "the 'actualizing' seminar in Sioux Falls"--part of Peggy's fantasy world.  It was stated several times that Ed was not her first choice (probably not second or third either) for a husband, yet she was willing "to settle for Ed".  Peggy stated in Ed's final scene, how Ed was talking (but never understanding her).  Yet, she build a marriage of convenience and deception with Ed (birth control by pills and abstinence) all the while listening to Ed talk about his plans of children and his own shop, until she could "figure-out" how to "actualize". Peggy used  "California" as her fantasy world where all of her dreams would come true (if she could only find a way to get there!) and blamed Ed and the rest of society for denying her "fantasy".  Was this "feminism"--No.  This is a case of someone not defining their ambition for life, doing little to prepare (her)self to live said life--yet blaming society and especially spouse for denying (her)self the opportunity for "actualizing" this fantasy.  

 

Noah Hawley isn't some white male writing sexist bullshit to create a story, but rather he created a scenario where the "fantasy worlds" of several people clashed violently leading to the death of 30 or so.  Nearly everyone depicted was "actualizing" in one way or another (in their mind) and the result was utter disaster for most.

[VCRTracking]

The great thing about Fargo is you're sympathetic to a lot of characters no matter how horrible they are.

[Bannon]

No, it really doesn't. Even allowing that there's such a thing as a "Kansas City Mafia" (which is somewhat laughable to begin with), and assuming they hide their illegal activities behind some sort of legitimate-looking business in an office building, the job description being given to Mike by the supervisor in no way reflected the type of work Mike was obviously experienced at. And if this shell company does indeed have number crunchers and a paper trail in an effort to legitimize their business for show, what on earth makes them think Mike is in any way qualified to do that sort of work? That's something you hire lawyers and accountants for, not hit men. The scene was clearly written for irony without any consideration of logic - but then I've had that complaint about all the scenes with Mike Milligan. They're showy, and pseudo-intellectual, but wholly unrealistic. 

 

 

Look, you may not like the joke about a professional mafia killer being slotted into bureaucratic lower management spot in an increasingly corporate organized crime family (although that sort of tension did exist; it is, in part, what led to John Gotti and Sammy Gravano assassinating Gambino Family boss Paul Castellano) but it is most assuredly true, and not "laughable", that Kansas City was a mafia town, and a very bloody one.....

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City_crime_family

 

.......which was quite active until the end of the 20th century. In fact, if you ever saw the factual Scorcese movie, "Casino", a good deal of the mobsters involved in the Las Vegas rackets were out of Kansas City. It was good writing to have the K.C. mob stretching it's rackets into the Dakotas. 

Edited December 16, 2015 by Bannon

[Nutjob]

Thinking about this episode more today, what I find interesting is that it was Ed, not Peggy, who realized that she'd never be happy if they stayed married. Yes, he said it from his own selfish perspective, but he was cutting her loose if he lived so that she could go off and do whatever it was that would make her happy--he liked his life the way it was, and now it was completely ruined. If anything, in that moment, Ed was the one who was fully actualized, not Peggy.

[annzeepark914]

All in all...after watching 2 seasons of Fargo, I'd have to say the most satisfying was Season 1 and the most exciting was Season 2.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

I was thinking about the "redemption" of Ben, the tool cop.  For sure, he gets points for stepping up in that moment with Lou in the middle of a firefight with Ohanzee.  Yet, wasn't he corrupt and a total jerk to Molly in Season 1?  I may completely be misremembering.  Anyone?

 

Also, the use of "FUBAR" as a battle cry just as they were about to charge Ohanzee's last known position...wasn't that something actually used by many soldiers in Vietnam?   Here again, I'm not at all certain.  Yet, if I'm right, that would be another fantastic "small" touch by Noah, or the actors, or someone.  

[shapeshifter]

Peggy was not willing to see what was right before her, or, right next to her, or, if there was something or someone there, she would ignore if unless she could poke it with a knife or the butt of a gun. Well, I take that back, she did become engrossed with that Reagan movie.... all while ignoring the fact that Dodd somehow got loose from that tremendous amount of rope. So, her immersion in fantasy got the best of her. The magazines were the boldest indicators of that immersion.

I wish she could have been actually actualized, but, I'm convinced she could understand it only as it applies to someone else and not to her current or future situation. That is the character.

I wonder if this was intended to be a mirror held up to the viewers who turn to shows like this for meaning. I am a fan (word derived from "fanatic" and the same root in the word "fantasy") who has resigned myself to not being about to be fully "actualized" or "realized" in real life and who sometimes escapes into shows like Peggy did.

Hobo.PassingThru, if your post was a Google doc that we were writing together, I would change "Peggy was not willing to see" to "Peggy was not able to see." You might change it back again, heh.

Also, the use of "FUBAR" as a battle cry just as they were about to charge Ohanzee's last known position...wasn't that something actually used by many soldiers in Vietnam?

Oh, yes. I loved that bit of linguistic realism. I had hoped to see a line exchanged between Hanzee and Lou about their shared Vietnam experience--but vets from that war did not tend to talk about it for various social and psychological and political reasons. The FUBAR shorthand from Lou (was it to Shit Cop?) was more perfect. Edited December 17, 2015 by shapeshifter

[ae2]

I was thinking about the "redemption" of Ben, the tool cop.  For sure, he gets points for stepping up in that moment with Lou in the middle of a firefight with Ohanzee.  Yet, wasn't he corrupt and a total jerk to Molly in Season 1?  I may completely be misremembering.  Anyone?

 

I don't remember him being corrupt, and couldn't find anything about it on the wiki. I think he was just a jerk and a tool, not wanting to follow any leads or get involved in serious situations. Exactly like he was here in S2.

 

(He was Gus's commanding officer, by the way. Don't get him confused with Molly's C/O. Who was... equally a jerk and a tool and sleezy.)

 

My take on Schmidt isn't redemption, just character building. He had the potential to be a good cop, to basically be what Lou was. Most of the time, he shied away from it and tried to avoid conflict at all costs. But when it came down to it he showed his bravery and training. He took out two of the Gerhardts, protected Ed and Peggy, and even went after Hanzee on his own after having his face smashed by Peggy.

 

Is he actually a shit cop? Most of the time, probably, but even Lou might have a little respect for him. Is he a prick? Without a doubt.