S02.E08: Legends Of Today

[wingster55]

It reintroduced Felicty to the audience. Got into her "ramble" some specific character exposition. Not just running point, but super smart and in a relationship with Oliver and has verbal gaffes. They reviewed most of who she is to the show in a couple lines.

Well since the conversation topic was why Iris was not included in the crossover, I don't know why I would blame the other characters rather than the writers since she could have been easily written in if the writers used an ounce of creativity.

Barry needs his team for the day to day episodic dealings with the bad guy but honestly, there was no need for the Flash B plot in this episode at all...unless the speed formula comes up in the Arrow crossover part but so far it feels like that part of the episode was meaningless to the story being told in the crossover and it took up way more time than Oliver's Baby Mama drama.

So right there would have been oodles of time in the show. I still think making Iris Kendra's friend makes so much more sense than Cisco dating Kendra but hey, they could have easily gone both routes if they wanted. Not like Iris was too busy with her other storylines

And it's not like what Patty or Catlin or Felicity do on the show is stuff that they'd have Iris do instead. Their scenes are about Barry in relation to either their job (physician or cop or Team Arrow) or their personal interaction (LI and crossover friend).

Iris should have her own stuff but I don't see that the other women that show up on the show are doing what Iris should be doing or taking her "job" so to speak, for example, last year Barry couldn't talk to Iris about his worries over Team Flash since she didn't even know he was theFlash. So Felicity getting the pep talk is something no one else could have done even if Iris and Barry are closer and know each other better.

Catlins always around when Barry is hurt because she's his doctor. So as his friend too, it's easy for her to say something. Again, of course they should have had Iris visit him when his spinal cord was mending but it's not his team's fault for hogging up his recover time at Star Labs.

I complain when something a certain character should be doing is illogically given to someone else but there are reall good in show reasons why other characters have their scenes. Again I repeat that doesn't mean that Iris should not also be around or get a say in what's going on in Barry's life (or even just BE in his life) but the writers don't IMO take "Iris duties" away and give them to the other characters, rather it feels like the writers just forget (for lack of a more precise reason) to also write for Iris altogether and don't think to change a scene enough so Iris is the more logical character to have a moment with Barry.

So yeah, I blame the writers, not the other characters for the Iris problem. (Her absence and under use)

Felicity could have been introduced in her first scene with Barry. It shows her personality, the fact that she's with Oliver and friends with Barry. 

 

It's the writters preference to use those other characters. When Barry was beat up by Zoom he was then taken to bed rest where all the other characters were EXCEPT IRIS. When he woke up she should've been there. 

 

Next episode, she tries to help Barry but he shuts her out and 0.6 seconds later confides in Joe. Why not have Iris be the one? 

 

Patty discovered Grodd's hair in the crime scene. Iris could have been there investigating and noticed it. 

If Felicity can pull up Savage in a 1970s pic...why can't Iris do something similar? She has sources from last year..but that would require them to show her career. 

 

So yes...we can blame the characters..it's actually a bit of a silly notion that Iris fans can't do so IMO. Or any fans of a shafted character on any show ever. (And it's happened too)

[zannej]

Wow, this thread really digressed into hatred of various characters and got off the point of discussing the actual episode. LOL.

 

I'm not impressed with Vandal Savage. He was a yawn for me. I like Damian Dahrk and found his reactions amusing. I don't find him attractive, but his eyes are so blue that I can't help but want to look at them. I, too, was hoping that Thea would intervene and help Oliver. I did love his reaction to Oliver suddenly disappearing from his grip. No anger, just amusement at something new. I guess maybe he got that bottle of merlot he'd been wanting and was feeling good. But seriously, what about that bomb? Did Barry just leave it there to be taken? A small comment about the bomb being moved to a safer location would have been nice.

 

People were kvetching about some of the female characters not having any screentime, but Detective Lance was missing also. Quite frankly, I'm not surprised that people were left out-- it was a lot to cram in to one episode and I feel that some of it was rushed. There were parts I thought could have been eliminated and things that would have been nice to see instead.

 

If they have Cisco at the same age as the actor who plays him, then he's in his late 20s. I know people say he acts younger, but he's more mature than my baby brother (who is 35). I like Cisco and I'm slightly envious of his hair. LOL.

 

I admit that I did not miss Laurel in this episode. I was a fan of Dinah Lance/Black Canary in the comic books, but the way they've written Laurel on the show hasn't really worked for me-- although I think the biggest thing is that I feel they miscast the role. I think the actress might be better in another role, but she just isn't right for Black Canary. She seems like a sweetheart and all, but her facial expressions and lack of chemistry with the other characters is really a detractor. My brother isn't so kind in his criticism-- he thinks she's a horrible actress.

 

I think the shame about Iris is that I feel that Candace is one of the stronger actresses on the program. She has more chemistry and has better facial expressions and line deliver than Danielle. Speaking of Danielle, she falls flat with most of the cast except Tom Cavanagh. I don't know what it is about him, but he seems to bring out better acting from her. Maybe its that she trusts him and is more comfortable around him for some reason. I know that trust and comfort with other actors is very important for the performance. Many people think its just about delivering lines, but there is a give and take with energy and emotion. You can actually feel the other person's energy-- if they are good/comfortable enough to direct that energy at you and it makes a world of difference in being able to perform. But you also have to be receptive to that energy. If there isn't a good give and take of energy, then the scenes fall flat.

 

I'm starting to like Kendra and I can sort of buy her as having been an Egyptian priestess, but I really was not impressed with Carter at all. He did not look right for the part and I felt that his acting was flat and uninteresting. He was less impressive than Vandal Savage.

 

Malcolm just popping up with a bunch of League members was funny-- although, in the past he's just popped up alone. I have no idea why he had to have members with him, other than to show off or something. At least the show made fun of it, and I'm sure John Barrowman got a kick out of his scenes.

 

I'm glad that Barry commented on Oliver's stupid sleeves. Those bug me so much! It's not that he could get cold, its that it would be better to have his arms protected. Slap an underarmor shirt on him or something! I don't need to see those veins popping out-- I keep worrying they will get cut.

 

So, Cisco slips and blabs Barry's ID to Kendra and she's just brought into the fold. Then Carter gets brought back to Arrow HQ (instead of a safe neutral location) and gets to see the IDs of everyone there. But Barry can't be chuffed to tell Patty when it could actually help them deal with criminals and make life easier. It made no sense.

 

Ah, the coincidence fairy flew in and Patty just happened to be at the right time and place to see Wells putting something in the trunk of a car. Whose car was that anyway? Did he borrow one? Did he steal it? How has he been getting food? Have people been buying it for him? Ok, so he put on a baseball cap and sat in a bar and nobody seemed to recognize him. Then we have Patty following him back to StarLabs. First of all, she should have run the plates on his car to find out who owned it. She also should have considered that he might be someone who just looks similar to Wells. Granted he fit the description of a suspect, but she should have called Joe to inform him before pursuing. And how the hell did she get in to StarLabs? Did she run so fast that she got in before the doors closed behind Wells? Did he forget to lock up? WTF? (Also reminds me of how the hell did Malcolm and his crew get in to the Arrowcave?)

 

Then, Caitlin is barely out of the room when Patty comes in and starts talking rather loudly at him. Did Caitlin not hear that? I can only assume that police protocol on Earth2 must be completely different than Earth1, because Wells not only walking toward Patty, but seeming to point the object in his hand at her while telling her to give him the gun just seemed absolutely retarded. The smart thing would have been for him to put the object down and hold his hands up and try to talk to her-- or to call out to Caitlin. Even though Patty didn't really have a valid reason to enter StarLabs-- she should have called it in and asked for a warrant or something-- she decided to trespass and pull a gun on him.

 

Some of the action scenes didn't work for me-- the fight scenes were a bit weak. Barry was incredibly slow at catching some of the objects. Then there was the shooting scene. Patty must have one very weak gun to be able to shoot him at that range and have him just stand there and then pass out. I was told that being shot feels like getting hit by a bowling ball. The force of the bullet should have knocked him back and there should have been blood spatter and a lot more blood (but maybe they toned it down for kids).

 

Then there was the weirdness with Jay. Not sure what his major gripe is with the serum. He just seemed like he had a stick up his ass without any explanation. If there had been a line about the serum having backfired before, it might have been different. I get that Wells was an ass to Jay, but it seems like Jay is just as much of an ass to him. I wonder if they were ever friends or if they have always disliked one another. I hope they explain more about it later.

 

I agree that the drama with Oliver's kid should be left to happen on Arrow and not The Flash. While I liked one of his kids in the comic books, I am not overly fond of adding children to programs.

 

I did enjoy this episode, but I don't know if I'm really sold on the spinoff since I don't like some of the characters. I'll have to wait and see.

[BkWurm1]

Felicity could have been introduced in her first scene with Barry. It shows her personality, the fact that she's with Oliver and friends with Barry. 

 

It's the writters preference to use those other characters. When Barry was beat up by Zoom he was then taken to bed rest where all the other characters were EXCEPT IRIS. When he woke up she should've been there. 

 

Next episode, she tries to help Barry but he shuts her out and 0.6 seconds later confides in Joe. Why not have Iris be the one? 

 

Patty discovered Grodd's hair in the crime scene. Iris could have been there investigating and noticed it. 

If Felicity can pull up Savage in a 1970s pic...why can't Iris do something similar? She has sources from last year..but that would require them to show her career. 

 

So yes...we can blame the characters..it's actually a bit of a silly notion that Iris fans can't do so IMO. Or any fans of a shafted character on any show ever. (And it's happened too)

Felicity was introduced at the same time as all the other Arrow characters.  She has as much right to a moment as they do with their fighting.  Why should she be left out when in a normal Arrow fight she would be interacting with them on the comms?

 

Yes, I agree the writers have a big problem leaving Iris out of stuff. Yes, she should have been there when Barry was injured. But it's not like the other characters shouldn't have also been there.  And yes, Barry should talk to and confide in Iris if we are to believe that they have this deep connection and friendship.  But the show is in love with it's bromances and father/son dynamic and yeah, I have agreed that the way men get preference in writing on this show is a problem. 

 

But having Iris discover the Gorilla hair rather than the police offer that is on scene doing the investigation?  That doesn't make sense to me.  Let Iris talk about sightings and rumors but finding minute evidence at a closed crime scene isn't the way to do it. 

 

And Felicity basically compared all images on the internet to a sketch in like a couple seconds and Iris wasn't there.  Maybe you meant have her do a search before they left for Star City?  But the problem is that unless they brought Iris with them and she had a reason to be with them, then the timing of the needed exposition would have been out of place.  They needed to have the thing about finding a forty year old pic of VS looking exactly like he did now happen just shortly before MM walked in.  So that one in on the mechanics of the story.  Again, if they'd come up with a reason why Iris came along, then she could have done the exposition about finding only an impossible picture of the guy from the past, but the writers didn't do their work so she got excluded. 

 

I'm all for complaining about Iris not getting her due but blaming the other characters for doing stuff their characters make sense doing is not something I can support and feel derails the strength of the call to fix what they are doing with Iris.  Why confuse the issue with  distractions?  I would think staying on message and talking about Iris would be the most effective way to relay dissatisfaction about how Iris is used.  

Edited December 2, 2015 by BkWurm1

[BkWurm1]

If they were going to treat Iris this way - they never should have done it. It's almost like the show wasn't sure they would make it and were like, "sure, let's take a chance on the black girl" in S1 Eps 1-9, but then once the show became a hit, reverted back to the usual status quo and doubled down on it. It's like how companies in distress turn to minority (women and ethnic minority) CEOs, but then once the company makes it out of the tough times, they go back to white male CEOs. This is a statistical fact, btw, based on a McKinsey report I just read.

 

I really question if race has anything to do with it.  Gender, hell yes, but I don't think that Iris would be fairing any better right now no matter who was cast.  The only reason that the other female characters appear to be doing better is their in story reasons to be included day to day are more straight forward.  They automatically get nuts and bolts stuff that go along with their jobs (and current LI status) but it takes a little more thoughtful writing to include Iris.  Not that much thought but more than the writers appear to be willing to do until it directly affects Barry or Joe.  They are very dismissive of telling Iris's story just for the sake of Iris's characterization but then I think that is true with all the female characters on the show. 

 

Felicity also greatly benefits from the nuts and bolts activity of day to day use. She is a very useful character to keep the story moving. That's why she gets more screen time.  It was the same thing with Chloe on Smallville.  She was directly involved in the plot usually and by later season had all the needed resources and relationships to make her one of the most needed characters on the show for telling the story.  They had to just about destroy her relationship with the main character to open up room for Lois in the final seasons since before Clark had a stroke and decided to blame Chloe for all that went wrong, wanting to hang and talk to Lois or work with her when she was blind about his secret was a hindrance to the flow of the story.  Going to his BFF that knew his secret and had the resources to get the job done made a hell of a lot more sense.  (Which is why I found the Lois on Smallville about the most inorganically written character ever.) 

 

The problem Iris suffers is that she doesn't have to be involved in the day to day stuff for the main plot stories to be told.  Shes only involved when they come up with excuses to involve her in the Meta of the Week or if they want to explore some emotions of Barry's. (But they also have/had Joe, Wells, Caitlin and prison dad for him to have heart to hearts with as well - not to mention Oliver and Felicity in crossovers.)  Iris from a storytelling position lacks necessity to the story.  Her contributions to solving the mystery of the week or being someone Barry can talk to are not unique enough to guarantee that she is included.  At least not yet. 

Edited December 2, 2015 by BkWurm1

[wingster55]

Felicity was introduced at the same time as all the other Arrow characters.  She has as much right to a moment as they do with their fighting.  Why should she be left out when in a normal Arrow fight she would be interacting with them on the comms?

 

Malcolm wasn't. And I also have issues with the fight and the inclusion of Damien. Not like we're gonna see Zoom in tonight's episode. We could've just had him saving Oliver and saved a minute of screentime. 

 

Yes, I agree the writers have a big problem leaving Iris out of stuff. Yes, she should have been there when Barry was injured. But it's not like the other characters shouldn't have also been there.

 

But it's the prioritizing of other characters and relationships with Barry that's the problem. They could've been there with Iris..but the writers want to highlight it over Iris and Barry's friendship. 

 

We blame other characters because it's so easy to have Iris in scenes with Barry or with other characters when she isn't. 

 

I don't see how it's any different than fans blaming Laurel for something (like her scene where she comforts Diggle, or Oliver's deteriorated fighting skills) 

[XtremeOne1]

This episode was weird. The pacing was really off and there were a lot of logical leaps and forced leaps to get crossover/character introductions. I'm hoping next episode is less so but yeah, this one was all over the place

- "Oh he throws a knife fast, it must be magic. Let's go to star city!"

- "Oh hey people with secret identities, let's introduce ourselves to this stranger!"

- "Oh hey, Merlyn"

- "Oh how will we get to Central City, two people with wings and guy with super speed who constantly is grabbing people and carrying them with said super speed"

- "Oh hey Hawkman, great timing!"

 

And there were a lot of other moments that were just like..."umm, okay sure. It's a crossover. Let's just keep moving along!"

 

 

Also, as an Iris fan I don't get the point blaming characters and not the writers. It's the writers who are forcing the Patty character, it's the writers who chose to have bad B-Plot, its the writers who seem to unable to figure out how to use Iris' investigative skills to help the team. 

[wingster55]

Yeah! How dare she... follow a man that she believed to be a known bad guy, warn him to stop or she'd shoot, and then shoot him when he failed to stop and she believed he had a gun.

 

If she thought he was E1 Wells...then he owned Star Labs and it's actually against the law to shoot him in his own place of work. Plus...that wasn't anything like a gun. Furthermore...shooting an unarmed man..too similar to recent current events. (But that last part is a digression) 

 

I don't get this "don't blame the characters" thing. We obviously know it's the writers who are making these decisions. But the actions are carried by the characters. 

[venusnv80]

The writers are BEHIND Patty, her existence and her storyline...so hating Patty is the same as disliking what the writers have done for and because of Patty.

[statsgirl]

  So on average, the Hawks only live 20 years (killed 200 times over 4,000 years)?  Is Savage murdering them in high school every time?  And how do they stay in sync?  If one lives until 70 and the other 30 do they not reincarnate until they've both died?  I guess we're supposed to assume Savage always kills them together and it's a moot point.

I think they reincarnate as young adults.  Maybe Iris could investigate Kendra's past to see if she really did grow up where she thought she did.

 

But I'm pretty sure she would have shown up if you'd gotten your back broken.

But Barry's back wasn't broken in this episode.  The question was, given that not only did they have to add five Arrow characters but three newbies who had to be given an origin story, how could they have organically put Iris in?

 

 

Agreed. Okay, I wasn't giving the show my full attention. Didn't they have pictures of Savage in previous decades?Where were those from? Couldn't Iris have provided those by pulling up articles from the paper's archives? If there's a certain MO he has for killing the Hawk people, she could have researched him, that way.

Felicity's facial recognition software found the picture.  Much faster than Iris going through old pictures in the archives one by one.  Not to mention, how would they even have known that Savage's picture was in a newspaper.

 

There would have been no newspaper record of two people being killed repeatedly, and no way to connect them through individual stories to Savage.  There is no research Iris could have done that wouldn't have replicated the computer program but infinitely more slowly, or been utterly nonsensical shoehorning her in.

 

The only way she could have fit into the episode was to show up at Jitters for coffee with Oliver and Barry but she wouldn't have served a storytelling purpose.

 

I'm now completely hung up on how much better the crossover would have been had they made Kendra a friend of Iris's rather than a forced love interest for Cisco.  He could have still even crushed on Iris's new friend (who just happened to be doing Iris's old job - right there a reason for Iris and Kendra to strike up a conversation) and gotten in his Vibes and insisted on coming along to "protect her" but it would have been comedic since yeah right.  Kendra and Iris could have been hanging out when VS shows up.  Iris could have been the one doing pep talks and sharing her understanding of how her world was ripped apart recently.  Iris NEEDS a friend.  Why couldn't they have just killed two birds with one stone, given Iris a valid reason to be a part of the crossover and give her a way to have had a POV on the show leading up to the crossover.   

 

 

THIS! This would have made the entire storyline that much stronger. Going through Cisco could still have happened, but having Iris investigating these weird things (that could have been what she was doing when she jumped out the window and Barry caught her) that eventually led to Kendra/Carter and Savage would have been a great twist at writing - especially if they had used it as a way to show Iris throwing herself into work so she didn't have to deal with Eddie's death.

See? Integrated. And that took literally no effort at all to come up with.

It's like the writers forgot how to write a continuous story because "crossovers". Last season they still sucked at writing for Iris in the back half of the season, but they did know how to weave a long continuous story with mystery to it and an overall arc. This season, the show is a fragmented mess that's lost its heart (Iris).

I think the problem is not that Felicity is taking time away from Iris or that she's a Mary Sue (her inability to cook and unfailing optimism that she can has been a running joke this season hence the "my pigs in blankets" line).  The problem is the Flash EPs don't care about the female characters.

 

Women on this show are given screen time by their jobs (doctor, cop, reporter) or by the men in their lives (Ronnie for Caitlin, Eddie, Barry and Joe for Iris, Patty's dead brother).  The B-plot wasn't about who Caitlin and Patty are as people, it was about Joe's partner shooting Wells and the team doctor saving him.

 

If Iris is getting shafted in terms of show-time now, just wait till that brother of hers shows up. No wonder Iris didn't want Joe to hear that he's got a biological son in addition to his foster one.

Edited December 2, 2015 by statsgirl

[millennium]

Ironically, I thought Felicity seemed more like Felicity 1.0 in this episode of The Flash than she has in maybe two seasons of Arrow.   I liked the bit where she was mimicking Oliver pooh-poohing her idea of the magnetic arrows.

[BkWurm1]

We blame other characters because it's so easy to have Iris in scenes with Barry or with other characters when she isn't.

 

I don't see how it's any different than fans blaming Laurel for something (like her scene where she comforts Diggle, or Oliver's deteriorated fighting skills)

 

I personally have tried not to be annoyed that Laurel talks to Diggle.  She does have a valid relationship with him now.  But the reason why people were upset was that Laurel was now stepping in and getting the heart to heart friend moments that Felicity used to get.  They took something away from Felicity that she used to have.  Iris has always been competing for time in Barry's world.  At least that is the feeling. 

 

As for Oliver's lack of fighting skills, they had to rejig the status, prowess and rank of every fighting member of the team in order to justify Laurel being considered an equal.  Trying to make her character work (since BC  is supposed to be an equal or better fighter than GA and this one CLEARLY is not) is the specific cause of why Oliver now isn't allowed to be better than anyone on his team. It literally IS her fault as a character.  So apples compared to asparagus, IMO.    

[millennium]

Yeah! How dare she... follow a man that she believed to be a known bad guy, warn him to stop or she'd shoot, and then shoot him when he failed to stop and she believed he had a gun. The very NERVE of her for actually doing her job. How utterly inconsiderate. She should just leave, because it's TOTALLY her fault that certain people want focus on Iris and take their annoyance at the lack of it out on a different character. 

 

I wish the character would just be written off entirely so that the people who are only watching for her could leave and stop bitching about it constantly.  

 

My dislike of Patty has nothing to do with Iris.  Patty seems more of a plot contrivance than an actual character.  Even Barry doesn't seem that into her.   It's like he dates her because the writers told him to.   Zero chemistry there.  Compare to Cisco and Golden Glider.

 

I don't get the Iris love myself, or the ire over her diminished screen time.   She's never brought much to the story.   I think it was a fatal error to pair her off with Eddie Thawne in Season 1.    It threw up a wall between her and Barry from the very start.   I think the writers thought it would create some tension between Iris and Barry but it never produced a flame.   Part of the problem may be the "what-were-they-thinking" show twist that Barry and Iris grew up as de facto brother and sister.   Brothers and sisters getting together, even when they're technically not brother and sister, just isn't cool.   It's weird, in fact.   Like something you'd see on Investigation Discovery.   Or Game of Thrones.

 

The writers really fucked up when it came to Iris.   Goes to show you that maybe some things should be left as they are in the comic books.  

Edited December 2, 2015 by millennium

[sjohnson]

Do they tell Carlos Valdes to camp it up that much, or does he do it on his own? No wonder the writers felt they couldn't write Cisco saying "my girlfriend." 

 

Reincarnation, snooze, wake me in the next life. 

 

If after four thousand years, you still think hand to hand combat is how Genghis Khan and Julius Caesar and Napoleon and Tamerlane and Chandragupta Maurya and...well, just about any awesomely powerful big shot other Alexander the Great got to the top, you. just. haven't. been. paying. attention.

 

Still, I knew it was a comic book show but the jokes were very entertaining. Loved the first half.

[Chicago Redshirt]

But seriously, what about that bomb? Did Barry just leave it there to be taken? A small comment about the bomb being moved to a safer location would have been nice.

 

People were kvetching about some of the female characters not having any screentime, but Detective Lance was missing also. Quite frankly, I'm not surprised that people were left out-- it was a lot to cram in to one episode and I feel that some of it was rushed. There were parts I thought could have been eliminated and things that would have been nice to see instead.

 

....

 

Then there was the weirdness with Jay. Not sure what his major gripe is with the serum. He just seemed like he had a stick up his ass without any explanation. If there had been a line about the serum having backfired before, it might have been different. I get that Wells was an ass to Jay, but it seems like Jay is just as much of an ass to him. I wonder if they were ever friends or if they have always disliked one another. I hope they explain more about it later.

 

Re the bomb, it seemed like Team Arrow had knocked out basically every ghost (and really, shouldn't they be "drones" since it's HIVE and all?), so I'll fanwank that Darhk dipped out after Barry saved Ollie. Yet another example of Barry not using his super-speed to kick the crap out of a villain, or at least, y'know follow him, as was the case with Savage (twice!).

 

Lance was at least referred to. As was Laurel. I literally did not hear whatever line Iris had nor see Iris. Since this is the Flash half of the crossover, I would expect all Flash main characters to play a role and not so much the Arrow characters. Now if in the Arrow half of the crossover, Iris plays a prominent role and Laurel or Quinton don't, that would seem strange but balance things out.

 

Re: Jay and Harry, I would generally not be down for people conducting experiments on my friends or allies. And in particular, Harry doesn't necessarily know what he is doing, nor can he fully be trusted.

 

Yeah! How dare she... follow a man that she believed to be a known bad guy, warn him to stop or she'd shoot, and then shoot him when he failed to stop and she believed he had a gun. The very NERVE of her for actually doing her job. How utterly inconsiderate. She should just leave, because it's TOTALLY her fault that certain people want focus on Iris and take their annoyance at the lack of it out on a different character. 

 

I wish the character would just be written off entirely so that the people who are only watching for her could leave and stop bitching about it constantly.  

 

Of course, you can't necessarily call for realism in police procedures, but Patty

 

1. Doesn't call for backup

2. Doesn't seek an arrest warrant

3. Trespasses on private property

4. Shoots an unarmed man.

 

Her belief that the syringe is a gun is IMO fundamentally unreasonable. Guns generally don't have a big old thing with liquid in the back.

 

Taken in isolation, Patty has not been an interesting, fun or useful character IMO. 

 

I think they reincarnate as young adults.  Maybe Iris could investigate Kendra's past to see if she really did grow up where she thought she did.

 

But Barry's back wasn't broken in this episode.  The question was, given that not only did they have to add five Arrow characters but three newbies who had to be given an origin story, how could they have organically put Iris in?

 

 

Felicity's facial recognition software found the picture.  Much faster than Iris going through old pictures in the archives one by one.  Not to mention, how would they even have known that Savage's picture was in a newspaper.

 

There would have been no newspaper record of two people being killed repeatedly, and no way to connect them through individual stories to Savage.  There is no research Iris could have done that wouldn't have replicated the computer program but infinitely more slowly, or been utterly nonsensical shoehorning her in.

 

The only way she could have fit into the episode was to show up at Jitters for coffee with Oliver and Barry but she wouldn't have served a storytelling purpose.

 

 

 

I think the problem is not that Felicity is taking time away from Iris or that she's a Mary Sue (her inability to cook and unfailing optimism that she can has been a running joke this season hence the "my pigs in blankets" line).  The problem is the Flash EPs don't care about the female characters.

 

Women on this show are given screen time by their jobs (doctor, cop, reporter) or by the men in their lives (Ronnie for Caitlin, Eddie, Barry and Joe for Iris, Patty's dead brother).  The B-plot wasn't about who Caitlin and Patty are as people, it was about Joe's partner shooting Wells and the team doctor saving him.

 

If Iris is getting shafted in terms of show-time now, just wait till that brother of hers shows up. No wonder Iris didn't want Joe to hear that he's got a biological son in addition to his foster one.

 

The point of bringing up Barry's back was it was a glaring example of where Iris should have Barry's back. This is a woman who was constantly by his bedside during his coma, who saw him be humiliated by Zoom, who presumably knew exactly the nasty injury he suffered. 

 

I am fairly sure that if the writers wanted to incorporate Iris more into this storyline or season, they could have. One suggestion above was to make Iris and Kendra friends. After all, Iris used to work at Jitters and goes there frequently. Another would be to have Iris use reporting resources/background (looking at the newspaper's archives, interviewing a professor of Egyptian studies, remembering a recent story, or whatever) to find mentions of Vandal Savage, Priestess Shay-Ara, Prince Khufu, the staff of Horus, etc. etc. It's no more ridiculous than having Malcolm and the Merlynettes show up twice to give exposition. 

[AudienceofOne]

The fuck was that. That was... terrible. I have no idea what I just watched but it was a rambling disjointed mess. I know that crossover epsiodes expose problems with the different tones between Arrow and the Flash but this felt like a 14-year-old's attempt at crossover fan fiction. Just terrible.

 

Edited to say: there was a point in this episode where I realised that Smallville did this plotline better. SMALLVILLE. Just ponder that for a moment. And bring on Michael Shanks ASAP.

Edited December 3, 2015 by AudienceofOne

[zannej]

I don't remember Iris appearing in the episode either, which is a shame. I do agree that the characters from The Flash should have gotten more focus in this episode than members of Arrow-- although if they have more of team Flash in Arrow it might balance.

 

I totally agree with people who talked about the problems of one character having screentime vs another if one character is doing something that the other character should/could/normally would do.

 

I can see Patty actually thinking that whatever Wells had was some sort of weapon/gun because its Starlabs and they have some weird tech and because she had to react quickly to a possible threat. However, I agree with Chicago Redshirt that Patty should have called for backup, gotten a warrant, and not trespassed on private property. At least Patty felt bad about it when she realized she'd made a mistake. This was proof that letting Patty in to the loop could have prevented a near fatality.

 

I had some other thoughts, but my cat is insisting on being petted and is ramming her head into my hands.

[tennisgurl]

 

Malcolm and the Merlynettes

Can they come back for the musical episode cross-over that I so hope will become a thing?!?!

 

I mean, they clearly don't have any real plans beyond dramatic standing, so why not? 

[Manirys]

Of course, you can't necessarily call for realism in police procedures, but Patty

 

1. Doesn't call for backup

2. Doesn't seek an arrest warrant

3. Trespasses on private property

4. Shoots an unarmed man.

 

Her belief that the syringe is a gun is IMO fundamentally unreasonable. Guns generally don't have a big old thing with liquid in the back.

You do realize that a cop doesn't need a warrant when ACTIVELY PURSUING a suspect, right? And they damn well can go right onto private property while, again, actively pursuing a suspect. 

 

And her belief that the syringe may have been a weapon is absolutely fair in a place like Central City where all this shit has been going down, and she's currently facing a man who is supposed to be dead. ANYTHING could be a weapon in that situation. This is a city full of meta humans, for crying out loud. What's she supposed to do, assume the big syringe thing he's holding is perfectly safe and somehow psychically intuit that he's not dangerous or a metahuman? 

[phoenics]

Just because an actress' name appears second to the titular lead does not automatically make her the "female lead". We have seen it with both Katie Cassidy and Candice Patton, their names do appear second, but neither of them have been second leads or female leads ... either in term of story or screen time.

It is fairly obvious that both shows have just one lead and they slowly worked out what other characters work best in the story. In Arrow, it was Tommy Merlyn, Laurel Lance and Moira Queen in initial episodes who featured more, though both Tommy & Laurel gave way to Diggle & Felicity after first 10 episodes. In Flash, Barry worked best in one on one scenes with the three parental figures in his life, his own dad, his foster dad and his mentor Dr Wells so we saw those moments more. Cisco's screen time also increased gradually because of his popularity to the extent that he is now an integral part of the main cross over event this year. Iris never really was important to any plot in The Flash. In S1, Barry was pining for her and hiding things from her, as soon as she knew the secret and Barry stopped pining for her, her purpose and link to the story ended.

Can we please all agree on that and stop calling both Candice and Katie Cassidy female leads and then get offended on their behalf? Both the shows have one lead character and then a whole bunch of supporting characters.

Except this isn't true. When an actress is top billed, she's the defacto leading lady. Any other show? That's true. Arrow is different because Laurel was a failure (well, the writing for her was). When the show began, Laurel WAS the leading female actress on Arrow. Period. She had oodles of screen time for two straight years and then they demoted her and she probably only gave up her contractual right to be in every episode because they relented on Black Canary and made that happen (that's the ONLY reason CP's Iris was in that crossover - legally because she is the female lead, they HAD to give her screen time). So no, CP is actually the lead actress on the Flash.

Arrow is an exception and not the rule and clearly that line they had CP say in the crossover last night proved that contractually, BECAUSE she is the lead female, she HAS to get screen time in episodes of The Flash.

Now this doesn't mean that she gets all of the screen time, but sorry - top billing as a female actress MEANS lead actress. She may be a supporting character - but that doesn't change her lead status on the show (see: contract example above that was PROVEN by that paltry line of dialogue in the crossover).

This whole, "everyone but Barry is supporting" is the SAME BS line they tried on Roswell when they sidelined Shiri Appleby to try to prop up Katherine Heigl (who wanted to be the lead and did all kinds of backstage shenanigans to steal that from Shiri - but ratings tanked - ha! CP is so nice about all of the cast (of both shows) and always props them in interviews - I wish the other ladies on the show would give her that kind of support.

Intersectionality. It's a thing.

And funny - people keep saying how everyone is "supporting", but I'm looking at nearly everyone's screen time going up while Iris' is the ONLY one that was reduced to pretty much nothing.

So - not buying those arguments at all.

One more point about Laurel - pretty sure they created Sarah as The Canary to basically threaten KC. She was under contract and it would probably cost them a small fortune to just yank the contract, so they came up with giving her BC - but basically after threatening her with extinction and giving BC to her sister Sarah. I seriously doubt that they intended to have Sarah be Canary without knowing she was going to make everyone think she was BC - that was a direct threat to KC, imo, so she would give up the Love Interest lead mantle so they could give that to EBR.

Part of why I say this is - experience (I've seen shenanigans behind the scenes before) and KC stopped giving those "Laurel will always be the one for Oliver" interviews (where she was beginning to sound salty) around the time Sarah took off.

[Chicago Redshirt]

You do realize that a cop doesn't need a warrant when ACTIVELY PURSUING a suspect, right? And they damn well can go right onto private property while, again, actively pursuing a suspect. 

 

And her belief that the syringe may have been a weapon is absolutely fair in a place like Central City where all this shit has been going down, and she's currently facing a man who is supposed to be dead. ANYTHING could be a weapon in that situation. This is a city full of meta humans, for crying out loud. What's she supposed to do, assume the big syringe thing he's holding is perfectly safe and somehow psychically intuit that he's not dangerous or a metahuman? 

 

To be clear, we're not talking about going to a private parking lot or driveway, or even a mall that members of the public can go to.

 

We are talking about a lab that is supposed to be secure and not open to members of the public.

 

The Fourth Amendment would apply, which generally says if you're going to search someone with a few exceptions, you're going to need a warrant.

 

So no, a cop CANNOT just enter into a lab that is closed to the general public without a warrant, without imminent danger to someone and without knowledge of a crime in progress (or any of the other Fourth Amendment exceptions applying).

 

And as for the shooting, we'll have to agree to disagree. 

[phoenics]

So yeah, I blame the writers, not the other characters for the Iris problem. (Her absence and under use)

Well, since Patty is the one who basically got Iris' metahuman interest storyline from last season, I do blame her. Not her specifically - I know it's the writers, but yeah I resent her getting more screen time than Iris. I resent a lot of characters getting more screen time because the show set up Iris/CP as the LEADING ACTRESS on the show. That's simply fact because she was top billed. If that's NOT what they were going for the order of names would be different.

I refuse to sit her and let folks erase CP/Iris right in front of my face like I don't understand how billing/lead status works.

GG and CP are not co-stars in that sense, but Barry is the overall lead of the show, but CP is in the lead actress spot. If the show didn't want that, the credits should have been ordered differently.

My question was why you think she has any pull at all - she's under contract and basically a nobody. She has absolutely no leverage to make anyone do what she wants. If the writing for her has improved (personally, I think she's the same as she's always been, but I've never seen her as a Mary Sue), it's probably to do with an actual improvement on the part of whoever is writing her at any given time.

The thought that EBR has no pull when they shove her into shows and claim that they used her to make the fans like Barry when he came onto Arrow before Flash was launched puts the lie to that. EBR definitely has clout behind the scenes - even if she doesn't have to use it. She has to have some input into her character - probably not controlling input, but this idea that they write and she never discusses her character with them is bunk.

That's...completely not how contracts work.  And I am a contracts attorney.

Pretty sure she has some kinds of out clauses in her contracts.

[XtremeOne1]

I personally have tried not to be annoyed that Laurel talks to Diggle.  She does have a valid relationship with him now.  But the reason why people were upset was that Laurel was now stepping in and getting the heart to heart friend moments that Felicity used to get.  They took something away from Felicity that she used to have.  Iris has always been competing for time in Barry's world.  At least that is the feeling. 

 

As for Oliver's lack of fighting skills, they had to rejig the status, prowess and rank of every fighting member of the team in order to justify Laurel being considered an equal.  Trying to make her character work (since BC  is supposed to be an equal or better fighter than GA and this one CLEARLY is not) is the specific cause of why Oliver now isn't allowed to be better than anyone on his team. It literally IS her fault as a character.  So apples compared to asparagus, IMO.    

 

I never get the Laurel/Diggle complaints. These are two people who spent the last six months fighting side by side, who are now going through similar experiences. The issue is just people HATE Laurel, so it's a damned if they do situation.  Felicity still has one on ones with Diggle but she can't exactly have a one on one with him about sibling stuff since she's an only child. 

 

This is part of the problem too. Why is it Felicity vs Laurel, when we should hope for Felicity and Laurel becoming friends(I really like the Laurel/Thea relationship because well, it's the only female relationship on the show now that Sara is gone).

 

Given that Iris and Caitlyn both lost husbands, both know about Barry and metahumans, it would be interesting to see them become friends. But the show isn't interested in that. Iris is an investigative reporter. But the show isn't interested in that. While Arrow is show itself more willing to explore women in other roles outside of the man(Felicity and her job, Laurel and her sister, Thea and her curse) Flash still seems unable to move the fact that a woman can somehow exist without a man telling her what to do. 

 

I mean Caitlyn still can only exist as a girl friday to a tech genius or mooning over Jay. 

 

I fear for Kendra and Sara in Legends of Tomorrow.

 

Felicity's facial recognition software found the picture.  Much faster than Iris going through old pictures in the archives one by one.  Not to mention, how would they even have known that Savage's picture was in a newspaper.

 

 

I HATED that scene. Not because it didn't utilized Iris or whoever, but because I'm 90% certain that isn't how facial recognition works. It was another of the "oh we better get moving along" problems this crossover had.

Edited December 3, 2015 by XtremeOne1

[apinknightmare]

The thought that EBR has no pull when they shove her into shows and claim that they used her to make the fans like Barry when he came onto Arrow before Flash was launched puts the lie to that. EBR definitely has clout behind the scenes - even if she doesn't have to use it. She has to have some input into her character - probably not controlling input, but this idea that they write and she never discusses her character with them is bunk.

 

So, she probably doesn't have controlling input, but she definitely has clout? Come on. No one is saying that she doesn't discuss her character with the writers, I'm telling you that the notion that she has enough pull to make demands about her storyline/inclusion on other shows is ridiculous. 

[phoenics]

I dont think its ever been established in canon that only childhood family & friends can use "Ollie". Ollie is a known short name for Oliver. Some people like to use nicknames/short names for other people, that could be the kind of person Barry is. 

 

John stewart did and got the girl. On the animated show Justice League Unlimited,  Hawkgirl ended up with someone else not Hawkman. As long as Cisco/Kendra are in the same universe, there could still be a chance.  Kendra could  meet someone she likes more than Carter, be it Cisco or someone else on LOT. Or Hawkman could find someone else or one could die. I just think a lot can happen in a TV show, especially with the kind of show LOT seems to be and also having a shared universe.

Partially agree about Jon Stewart - but he only got the girl because they twisted the story around to make Carter Hall not the real Hawkman (his mind was twisted by some thing on the Hawk's ship in Egypt or something when he went on a dig). Then they gave the real Hawkman reincarnation storyline to Jon Stewart instead.

I was glad he stayed with Vixen in the end after that because of how they did the story. And actually they'd originally thought to make Hawkman the one who led the Thanagarians against Earth - I was glad they changed their minds.

So, she probably doesn't have controlling input, but she definitely has clout? Come on. No one is saying that she doesn't discuss her character with the writers, I'm telling you that the notion that she has enough pull to make demands about her storyline/inclusion on other shows is ridiculous.

I don't think I said she made demands - I said that I thought she could use her clout to get Felicity written better.

[apinknightmare]

I don't think I said she made demands - I said that I thought she could use her clout to get Felicity written better.

 

 

Then what did you mean by this:  

 

The thought that EBR has no pull when they shove her into shows and claim that they used her to make the fans like Barry when he came onto Arrow before Flash was launched puts the lie to that.

 

That makes it seem like you think she got herself written into storylines on Arrow and The Flash. Not trying to argue, just wondering if I'm misunderstanding you.

[phoenics]

You do realize that a cop doesn't need a warrant when ACTIVELY PURSUING a suspect, right? And they damn well can go right onto private property while, again, actively pursuing a suspect. 

 

And her belief that the syringe may have been a weapon is absolutely fair in a place like Central City where all this shit has been going down, and she's currently facing a man who is supposed to be dead. ANYTHING could be a weapon in that situation. This is a city full of meta humans, for crying out loud. What's she supposed to do, assume the big syringe thing he's holding is perfectly safe and somehow psychically intuit that he's not dangerous or a metahuman?

I think when Wells kept stepping toward her and kinda flicked the syringe at her, she felt threatened and shot.

I'm not sure I should comment further though because it feels a little too close to home.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Pretty sure she has some kinds of out clauses in her contracts.

 

I would have to guess that a) any reasonably well-drafted contract is not going to allow a party to just threaten to quit without major repercussions and b) assuming the speculation around here that the powers that be have some sort of grudge against either CP or Iris as a character, the powers that be's response would be "BYE, FELICIA!" and to the extent that they cared, would recast her with another actress willing to put up with this. 

I think when Wells kept stepping toward her and kinda flicked the syringe at her, she felt threatened and shot.

I'm not sure I should comment further though because it feels a little too close to home.

No question that Patty felt threatened.

 

The question is, was it reasonable for her to feel threatened and shoot? People's mileage may vary, but I would say no. 

Edited December 3, 2015 by Chicago Redshirt

[phoenics]

Then what did you mean by this:  

 

The thought that EBR has no pull when they shove her into shows and claim that they used her to make the fans like Barry when he came onto Arrow before Flash was launched puts the lie to that.

 

That makes it seem like you think she got herself written into storylines on Arrow and The Flash. Not trying to argue, just wondering if I'm misunderstanding you.

No not what I meant at all. What I meant was that her popularity gave her clout - that's how ratings and tv works (and I got the info about her being used to introduce Barry from the producers - they said that she was so popular that if she liked Barry, then the audience would too). So like someone said above about Cisco (the male Felicity), he's popular, so they use him (disagree about the Iris part of that though). I wasn't trying to suggest that she used it to up her screen time - what I thought I said was that she could use it (and I wondered if she had used it) to help gently guide the writers (who struggle with writing women) to write Felicity BETTER.

Her screen time is as abundant as its always been.

I hope that's clearer now?

[phoenics]

I really question if race has anything to do with it.

And yet Patty has nearly the same LI story that Iris had, but she's not getting the venom and hatred that Iris did. Sorry, but race has a lot to do with it.

[NorthstarATL]

I love how easily people come and go from the bases of operations on the two shows, and the crossover made that even more apparent. I guess the spontaneous wing-sprouting makes it easier to have Carly Simon and Khufu (Gesundheit!) standing  around and not looking awkward when not in flight? I wonder how many reincarnations didn't take because one or the other Hawk fell to his/her death? And poor Jay gets to wander in and warn about Velocity 6 or whatever, and doesn't even get a Flashback (pun intended) to why he is so skittish about taking the drug? Does he miss his superspeed at all? We couldn't get a minute with him explaining how he felt to maybe Caitlin before the drug's effect wore off?

 Looking forward to the Arrow half.

[AudienceofOne]

I love how easily people come and go from the bases of operations on the two shows, and the crossover made that even more apparent.

 

I thought Patty getting into Star Labs with a gun was bad enough but then we had that ridiculous Merlyn and Co appearance in the Arrow base - twice.

 

I mean, did they teleport or what? When did they leave Nanda Parbat? Everyone's like "how do we get from Star to Central?" but no one notices that Nanda Parbat is apparently accessible via an interdimensional portal or something. Actually, an interdimensional portal from the Arrow lair to Nanda Parbat would explain a LOT.

[millennium]

Oh good grief.   The Felicity and Laurel debates are why I no longer read the Arrow threads.

 

I had to double check this was the Flash forum.

Edited December 3, 2015 by millennium

[scarynikki12]

This thread is where you discuss the Legends of Today episode.  This is not the place to discuss the general DCTV world, whether or not Felicity is a Mary Sue, behind the scenes speculation, the history of various Arrow characters, or anything that is not pertinent to the events of the episode.  There are already places to discuss these topics.

 

Want to talk about Felicity?  Here you go

About Laurel?  Here

Iris? Here

Want to talk about the general DCTV world?  Enjoy

About relationships on Flash specifically? Here

About relationships on Arrow specifically?  Here

Anything LOT related that goes beyond this episode? Here

 

If your post is inspired by something/someone in the episode but not about said episode, give your fellow forum members a heads up and take that part of the conversation to the appropriate thread.  This applies to any topics that begin in one thread but end up being more appropriate for another.

 

Also, BE POLITE.  Different opinions are great but do not use them as an excuse to fight or be rude.  If someone posts an opinion you don't like, and you find yourself wanting to argue, either take a beat to cool down (so that you may engage in a constructive manner) or take advantage of the Ignore button at the bottom right corner of each post.  If you feel a poster has crossed a line into personal attacks or general offensive behavior, use the Report button (also in the bottom right corner) so that we Mods can step in. 

 

For any questions or clarifications, please feel free to send us a PM

 

In the meantime, enjoy the furballs:

 

 

scarynikki12 and Chip

[NateCon]

Jay and Harrison fight like bitter exes. And I enjoy it.

[prospazzinator]

Jay and Harrison fight like bitter exes. And I enjoy it.

 

Yes! Stop trying to play peacemaker, Caitlin, and let them bicker! Their scenes were among my favorites in this episode. Just hug it out, guys.

[kieyra]

I love how easily people come and go from the bases of operations on the two shows, and the crossover made that even more apparent. I guess the spontaneous wing-sprouting makes it easier to have Carly Simon and Khufu (Gesundheit!) standing  around and not looking awkward when not in flight? I wonder how many reincarnations didn't take because one or the other Hawk fell to his/her death? And poor Jay gets to wander in and warn about Velocity 6 or whatever, and doesn't even get a Flashback (pun intended) to why he is so skittish about taking the drug? Does he miss his superspeed at all? We couldn't get a minute with him explaining how he felt to maybe Caitlin before the drug's effect wore off?

 Looking forward to the Arrow half.

Nailed it. I don't even remember what I came here to post now.

[zannej]

No question that Patty felt threatened.

 

The question is, was it reasonable for her to feel threatened and shoot? People's mileage may vary, but I would say no. 

 

Having grown up in a law enforcement background and studied Criminal Justice, I can say that she was sort-of justified to shoot because the contraption he was holding resembled a gun and he pointed at her and was walking toward her while indicating that he wanted to take her gun away-- which really was the height of stupidity. She had reasonable suspicion that he was going to harm her. It would have been clearly justifiable had they been out in public.

 

However, she never should have been inside Starlabs to begin with. The moment she saw him, she should have called it in or at least told Joe. She should never have entered Starlabs. Seeing someone who looks like a suspect walking in to a facility is not exigent circumstances that would allow her to trespass. Now, if he'd been overtly carrying a weapon-- like the stolen blaster from Mercury Labs and appeared to be breaking in to the place and/or she heard screams from inside indicating that people needed help, then she could have gone in. But she never should have gone in without notifying Joe and/or dispatch about the situation. Once he entered the lab and the doors closed, she had no right to enter without getting a warrant to enter and apprehend him. Now, depending on the state they are in, there are different laws pertaining to how a person can defend themselves when police enter their homes or private property. In some states, Harrison could legally have shot her just for entering. In others, pulling a gun on him would have justified his acting in self-defense. So, in that regard, her shooting of him was not legally justified since she shouldn't have been there, but it was understandable since she felt like she was in danger.

 

Bottom line is that she should have contacted Joe the moment she saw Harrison and told him what she planned to do so he could tell her to either go ahead, or wait for him, or tell her not to pursue it. If she hadn't blatantly breached police protocol by going in without the proper legal authority after giving proper notification to Joe/dispatch, I would have felt sorry for her when Joe told her to get her ass out of there.

 

On a side note, I wonder if Cisco even owns any button-up shirts because he always seems to wear the T-shirts even when he's on a date or in a situation where he should be wearing something more appropriate.

[CabotCove]

Partially agree about Jon Stewart - but he only got the girl because they twisted the story around to make Carter Hall not the real Hawkman (his mind was twisted by some thing on the Hawk's ship in Egypt or something when he went on a dig). Then they gave the real Hawkman reincarnation storyline to Jon Stewart instead.

I was glad he stayed with Vixen in the end after that because of how they did the story. And actually they'd originally thought to make Hawkman the one who led the Thanagarians against Earth - I was glad they changed their minds.

 

Ok I dont remember the story being like that,  but I didnt watch many JLU episodes so you could be right, thanks. I will watch again. I have always loved the Hawks love story, I like what they are doing with them here so far  but I'm just cautious when it comes to a live action TV show. There are other factors to consider than just comic canon or destiny.  Of  course I'm very much optimistic with WestAllen because I think the actors and characters have proven they work well together. I just think HG/HM will have to do the same, so no Im not ruling out  Cisco/Kendra just yet. 

Edited December 3, 2015 by WildcardC

[phoenics]

Having grown up in a law enforcement background and studied Criminal Justice, I can say that she was sort-of justified to shoot because the contraption he was holding resembled a gun and he pointed at her and was walking toward her while indicating that he wanted to take her gun away-- which really was the height of stupidity. She had reasonable suspicion that he was going to harm her. It would have been clearly justifiable had they been out in public.

 

However, she never should have been inside Starlabs to begin with. The moment she saw him, she should have called it in or at least told Joe. She should never have entered Starlabs. Seeing someone who looks like a suspect walking in to a facility is not exigent circumstances that would allow her to trespass. Now, if he'd been overtly carrying a weapon-- like the stolen blaster from Mercury Labs and appeared to be breaking in to the place and/or she heard screams from inside indicating that people needed help, then she could have gone in. But she never should have gone in without notifying Joe and/or dispatch about the situation. Once he entered the lab and the doors closed, she had no right to enter without getting a warrant to enter and apprehend him. Now, depending on the state they are in, there are different laws pertaining to how a person can defend themselves when police enter their homes or private property. In some states, Harrison could legally have shot her just for entering. In others, pulling a gun on him would have justified his acting in self-defense. So, in that regard, her shooting of him was not legally justified since she shouldn't have been there, but it was understandable since she felt like she was in danger.

 

Bottom line is that she should have contacted Joe the moment she saw Harrison and told him what she planned to do so he could tell her to either go ahead, or wait for him, or tell her not to pursue it. If she hadn't blatantly breached police protocol by going in without the proper legal authority after giving proper notification to Joe/dispatch, I would have felt sorry for her when Joe told her to get her ass out of there.

Wow - thanks for this. I just learned something.

I have a million questions - I'm gonna inbox you.

On a side note, I wonder if Cisco even owns any button-up shirts because he always seems to wear the T-shirts even when he's on a date or in a situation where he should be wearing something more appropriate.

He does have button down shirts, but button up - not so sure. Was he wearing a button up shirt last year when he visited his family? I can't remember.

[phoenics]

Ok I dont remember the story being like that,  but I didnt watch many JLU episodes so you could be right, thanks. I will watch again. I have always loved the Hawks love story, I like what they are doing with them here so far  but I'm just cautious when it comes to a live action TV show. There are other factors to consider than just comic canon or destiny.  Of  course I'm very much optimistic with WestAllen because I think the actors and characters have proven they work well together. I just think HG/HM will have to do the same, so no Im not ruling out  Cisco/Kendra just yet.

Poor Cisco, lol. Hawk-blocked, lol.

About the JLU episodes, this particular episode where they show all of the Jon Stewart stuff happens in the 10 episode second season of JLU. It's episode #37 Ancient History. Carter Hall is fully human and he only adds wings by making them. Something on their ship - the absorbatron (or something like that) he touches when he's on an archaeological dig makes him think he is Hawkman (it's like some kind of immersive memory device that he confuses as reality). So it's left up to the reader to decide if it's true or not. But the issue was that they they made Jon Stewart have a "past life" there too - and it was actually his past life person that was shown to be in love with Shayera and she him, not Hawkman. Instead they had Hawkman either naive or stupid and led astray by some villain.

It was a confusing episode - Carter had no wings or powers, he literally had to create his own wings, poor chap.

I guess you could argue that the reincarnation made a mistake that time? LOL.

Btw, the teleplay for that episode was written by Geoff Johns.

Edited December 3, 2015 by phoenics

[The Saga Continues]

- I thought the pacing of this episode was kinda weird. The Hawks/Savage plot breezed by very quickly (mostly to cram as much of that storyline into the first half), while the Wells/Caitlin/Patty/Jay plot slowed things down. Some people don't really care for crossovers, whether its TV or comics. But, it's great to see these characters interact. Diggle freaking out over Barry's powers (even after seeing Lazarus Pit resurrections) never gets old. Thea's fangirl moment over meeting the Flash was cute. And Barry's reactions to Malcolm's sudden appearances were priceless. Yet Iris gets completely sidelined to accommodate everybody else. Aside from West family drama, it's like the writers don't know what to do with her now that she's (currently) not Barry's love interest...

 

-I like the idea of Joe having Patty as a partner after losing Eddie, but the way it's been playing out has been hit or miss. Now that she's aware of Earth 2 Wells' existence, she'll probably learn about Team Flash at some point. It doesn't bother me that Barry is dating Patty. He should explore his options after pining for Iris for most of season 1. But it's unlikely Barry/Patty will last once the truth comes out. That could probably be the best thing for Patty. Linda Park became more interesting after she and Barry broke up...

 

-Unless I missed something, it's still not clear to me why Wells and Jay despise each other. It seems like they're holding out for a major reveal. I do like that Jay vibrated his hand through Wells' chest to save his life. It's a flip on how Earth 1 Wells/Eobard used to vibrate through people's chests to kill...

 

-The anvils were pretty heavy when it came to the Hawks. Carter literally swept Kendra off her feet. Poor Cisco, but it's not like we didn't know that it wouldn't last between them...

Edited December 3, 2015 by The Saga Continues

[CabotCove]

-The anvils were pretty heavy when it came to the Hawks. Carter literally swept Kendra off her feet. Poor Cisco, but it's not like we didn't know that it wouldn't last between them...

 

Not what I saw,  seemed to me she was reluctant to accept this new life and didn't seem that much taken by Prince Khufu/Carter to me. He remembers everything while Kendra starts of remembering nothing, I dont think she is going to be falling for him anytime soon. Unlike Carter,  she spends this life being Kendra from Wisconsin and unaware of any past lives. Even when she finally catches up , I just think she will be more carefree in how she lives her life and who she dates.

 

 

About the JLU episodes, this particular episode where they show all of the Jon Stewart stuff happens in the 10 episode second season of JLU. It's episode #37 Ancient History. Carter Hall is fully human and he only adds wings by making them. Something on their ship - the absorbatron (or something like that) he touches when he's on an archaeological dig makes him think he is Hawkman (it's like some kind of immersive memory device that he confuses as reality). So it's left up to the reader to decide if it's true or not. But the issue was that they they made Jon Stewart have a "past life" there too - and it was actually his past life person that was shown to be in love with Shayera and she him, not Hawkman. Instead they had Hawkman either naive or stupid and led astray by some villain.

 

Ok thanks, thats sounds a lot more familiar.

Edited December 4, 2015 by WildcardC

[Trini]

Two more things:

I really want to know what Hawkman would have done if Kendra had gone 'splat' after he pushed her off the roof. "Oops. I guess we'll try again next incarnation...."

 

We need a "I didn't know we knew the Arrow" moment for Iris.

[AudienceofOne]

Incidentally, when Kendra said "let's kill ourselves to deprive him of power" I thought, "that's actually a good plan". And then Carter was a giant patronising jackass about it, which made him seem even more of a dick

[phoenics]

Yet Iris gets completely sidelined to accommodate everybody else. Aside from West family drama, it's like the writers don't know what to do with her now that she's (currently) not Barry's love interest...

But it's unlikely Barry/Patty will last once the truth comes out. That could probably be the best thing for Patty. Linda Park became more interesting after she and Barry broke up...

So, I'm struggling with something... so first you suggest that the writers don't know what to do with Iris since she's not the love interest, but then you suggest that Patty becomes NOT a love interest and somehow that will make her more interesting? But - if they can't write properly for Iris (this shouldn't be hard), why would they then write properly for Patty if she's no longer a LI?

And if she DID get better storylines broken up with Barry, what would that then say about the writer's refusal to write for Iris?

[catrice2]

I'm sorry, but can someone remind me that Barry is supposed to be this great scientist?  Part of what bugged me is that any other time there is a "scientific" discussion, he acts as if he has no idea of how to contribute, but now he is a DNA specialist and he is analyzing the crime scene better than he has in any previous show.  Overall,  I am tired of Barry (and Cisco) acting so juvenile. Barry is protecting a city, but he acts like a little boy around women, and a teenager or something when he is with Oliver or other "grown ups."  I can't buy him in a relationship with anyone because they have him make such silly decisions.  At least show him being the brilliant scientist they told us he was when he was first introduced. 

In a nutshell after everything they have gone through (changing time, Earth 2, etc) there has been no evidence of maturity. I am not saying the show has to be serious, etc, but at least make them act like professional adults.  Why would Kendra be interested when the choice is between a man or a boy....and yes, Cisco needs a haircut. I don't know how they intend to use Jay, but they need to figure it out or just have him stop popping up.

 

Patty is just an unnecessary character.  Unlike everyone else, I have no use for the new Harrison Wells.  I think these crossover episodes just showed that both shows are losing their way.   I enjoy Joe, but he had nothing to do...and was Iris even in the show?   

[zannej]

phoenics, I'm glad the info was useful. Please feel free to inbox me those questions you had. I may be a bit rusty on some things, but I will endeavor to answer as best as I can.

 

Oops. I get button down and button up confused sometimes. LOL. I'm not big on fashion terms. I'm more interested in plumbing code and such.

 

I really wish that Hawkman had been more likable in this episode. Maybe he's supposed to be a bit of a dick, but I just found him boring. He had no chemistry with Kendra and I kept feeling like he sounded tired or bored and I half expected him to fall asleep or something. He made me yawn.

 

I think that Crazedtroll on fanfiction.net probably had a field day with this episode-- particularly the parts with Dr. Wells. LOL.

[The Saga Continues]

So, I'm struggling with something... so first you suggest that the writers don't know what to do with Iris since she's not the love interest, but then you suggest that Patty becomes NOT a love interest and somehow that will make her more interesting? But - if they can't write properly for Iris (this shouldn't be hard), why would they then write properly for Patty if she's no longer a LI?

And if she DID get better storylines broken up with Barry, what would that then say about the writer's refusal to write for Iris?

I don't see what you're struggling with. Iris is a main character who had diminished screen time this season. With that, there were some missed opportunities that the writers didn't take advantage of. Why drag out her learning that Barry was the Flash and Joe and Eddie were in on it if they weren't going to do much with it? Iris doesn't necessarily have to be a part of Team Flash. But with her being an investigative reporter, there are ways to have her involved where she still contributes to the story. Iris and Barry don't even seem like best friends at this point. Whether or not she is still intended to be a potential LI for Barry should be addressed at some point.

 

As for Patty, I didn't suggest that she not be a LI and that itself would make her more interesting. I was saying that if she wasn't, she could still be a recurring character as Joe's partner. I made the comparison to Linda Park since the show brought her back as Iris' co-worker after she broke up with Barry, as well as helping Team Flash by posing as her Earth 2 counterpart. There are ways of having her involved in the story without it feeling forced.

Edited December 4, 2015 by The Saga Continues

[phoenics]

^^^^ Thanks - I think I misunderstood something in your post originally. This clears it up.

[statsgirl]

And yet Patty has nearly the same LI story that Iris had, but she's not getting the venom and hatred that Iris did. Sorry, but race has a lot to do with it.

Patty is a cop, which gives her access to be on the crime scenes with Joe and Barry.  Iris is a reporter, which means that if you don't write specifically for her, she hasn't got anything to do on this show.

 

Barry had a crush on Iris in season 1 but from Iris, all that came was sibling affection. Even after the massive anvil of the newspaper from the future, she still chose to be with Eddie.  Patty, on the other hand, is romantically crushing back on Barry and that is much more pleasant to watch for many people than Barry's unrequited feelings for his adoptive sister who is in love with and living with another man..

 

I understand the frustration that Iris fans have when she gets sidelined but IMO race has nothing to do with it.  This show has trouble writing women and even more relationships women have with each other and with the men in their lives. (If there were a burning building, I bet Joe would have saved Barry first and only afterwards remembered about Iris.)  But I think it does a disservice to both sides to blame it on race.