Relationships: Speed Dating

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Well, since this seems to be the only place that isn't filled with mostly only Arrow & Olicity fanboys and girls - looking at you, 2.8 episode (LoT) thread - I have to say this episode showcased the majority of fan 'complaints' with this season, in terms of relationships that pertain to Barry [at least of the female variety].

 

-  Iris is sidelined, like usual.  Barely makes one little brief sighting and peep.

 

-  Patty is still perky and 'professionalism'.  Still unaware to the main storyline, because, whatever lame reasons Show can come up with for doing it.

 

-  Caitlin turned on a dime so much this episode, she had to be dizzy.  Her thoughts/feelings on the SF drug and giving it to Barry;  1) maybe - 2) yes, I'll even help make it! - 3) no, Jay says no - 4) maybe, since it worked on Jay - and finally, 5) probably yes if have to.

 

-  not Show-related exactly, but there's still so much more chemistry between Barry/Felicity than O/F (& I haven't even watched Arrow this season [yet; aside from tomorrow night, to complete the 2-part event])

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I don't mind that Patty doesn't know. I can understand if Barry doesn't want to reveal that info quickly. I actually like that there's someone who doesn't know -- because soooo many people know. I just have a feeling that if she does find out they might literally kill her off, and I'd rather they didn't.

 

I do agree with most of this. 

 

However, it would be different if she were just Joe's partner, but was close with everyone.  She's not just that, though, she is Barry's LI.  Even though Iris wasn't exactly a normal LI last season [her being with Eddie, but aware of Barry's feelings], I feel like we're rehashing the very same stuff - keeping the secret to protect a 'loved one' - only with a different person in the female's role in the play.

 

"Stale" I guess is the word I'm going for.

[Trini]

Just for the record; I don't hate Patty, or mind that she's here and with Barry. I'm pretty neutral on her because she's clearly the short-term/ placeholder/ 'ship stall.

 

If there's one problem I have with her (writing), it's that her personality is just a checklist of traits to appeal to fanboys -- the perfect nerd fantasy girlfriend.

I feel like we're rehashing the very same stuff - keeping the secret to protect a 'loved one' - only with a different person in the female's role in the play.

 

Agreed.

[Ruby25]

Yeah, and I know there's some female writers on the staff, which makes it even more embarassing. Are they trying to fit in with fanboys and dude bros? God, these people need to watch Jessica Jones for some inspiration on female characters.

[phoenics]

Yeah, and I know there's some female writers on the staff, which makes it even more embarassing. Are they trying to fit in with fanboys and dude bros? God, these people need to watch Jessica Jones for some inspiration on female characters.

Oh it's worse than that. Gabrielle Stanton - the new show runner for The Flash - used to work with Shonda Rhymes. SHONDA RHYMES. And yet CP has been sidelined and her character given no PoV. She should KNOW how to write for WoC - but NOPE.

Or maybe it's just something against CP. Kendra got a PoV in this episode - she got to talk about how she always felt like she didn't belong, etc.. Iris has never gotten that.

I really think something ugly must be happening behind the scenes on this show.

In S1, for the first 9 episodes, I had NO complaints about this show. I wanted Barry to tell Iris, but I had NO complaints. And then - they just went left.

Something is wrong.

[miracole]

Oliver and Felicity calling eachother pet names over the coms made me gag. Geez I hate crossovers it makes me have to deal with seeing characters I don't want to see.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

Oliver and Felicity calling eachother pet names over the coms made me gag. Geez I hate crossovers it makes me have to deal with seeing characters I don't want to see.

 

Had to fight my gag reflex too.  Also, without a doubt, solidified my strength of resolve to know I'm not missing much by not watching Arrow (not 'live', or weekly, at least).

[Actionmage]

I realized a better parallel than even Lois/Superman to Iris/Barry-- Agent Peggy Carter and Captain America.

 

If Marvel treated Peggy the way the CW treats Iris? There would have been no independent series for Peggy, nor scenes of her in other big-screen movies.  Peggy and Steve are separated by bad timing, to be sure, but both clearly still love each other even when Steve looks like he does and Peggy's on her death bed after a long life and a happy marriage.

 

Meanwhile, on the CW, we can barely get the hero of the piece to spend any time with his best bud since anyone can remember. As others have posted, to go by tonight's treatment of Iris, Ms. West is just someone hanging with the group, not the object of Barry's affections for the better part of his life. I am not speaking of Iris as Love Interest, but the young woman who saw Barry at his most despairing and angriest. She was the one Joe had Barry learn to box with. Iris was the one Barry confided things to and she is the one who knew about his "geek stash" backpack. She only got interested in the weird due to what happened to the Allens, her best friend's family.

 

Yet we are to swallow wholesale either Iris chose not be  anywhere close to Barry after she saw up close how broken Barry was physically or that Team Flash are major dicks who would keep Iris away from Barry. One other possibility: Joe kept Iris away. (The show doesn't seem to mind making Joe the dickiest dick that dicked, second only to Eobard Thawne, imo.) 

 

We wouldn't stand for Peggy to be treated as anything other than Steve Rogers' first and strongest love. Why is it that Iris isn't allowed to be that for Barry this season? 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I realized a better parallel than even Lois/Superman to Iris/Barry-- Agent Peggy Carter and Captain America.

 

If Marvel treated Peggy the way the CW treats Iris? There would have been no independent series for Peggy, nor scenes of her in other big-screen movies.  Peggy and Steve are separated by bad timing, to be sure, but both clearly still love each other even when Steve looks like he does and Peggy's on her death bed after a long life and a happy marriage.

 

Meanwhile, on the CW, we can barely get the hero of the piece to spend any time with his best bud since anyone can remember. As others have posted, to go by tonight's treatment of Iris, Ms. West is just someone hanging with the group, not the object of Barry's affections for the better part of his life. I am not speaking of Iris as Love Interest, but the young woman who saw Barry at his most despairing and angriest. She was the one Joe had Barry learn to box with. Iris was the one Barry confided things to and she is the one who knew about his "geek stash" backpack. She only got interested in the weird due to what happened to the Allens, her best friend's family.

 

Yet we are to swallow wholesale either Iris chose not be  anywhere close to Barry after she saw up close how broken Barry was physically or that Team Flash are major dicks who would keep Iris away from Barry. One other possibility: Joe kept Iris away. (The show doesn't seem to mind making Joe the dickiest dick that dicked, second only to Eobard Thawne, imo.) 

 

We wouldn't stand for Peggy to be treated as anything other than Steve Rogers' first and strongest love. Why is it that Iris isn't allowed to be that for Barry this season? 

 

QFT.

 

And I don't/didn't even need WA to be together together this season to be ok with what Show's doing.  There have been ZERO hints of WA this season, to date.  None.  [aside from the teeny tiny "she's not Iris" bit]

 

 

If WA isn't endgame - which I find difficult to believe, considering what happened in s1, but - ok.  However, if that is the case, Show needs to make that a reality for all to witness.  Don't make people endlessly wait for it (expecting it from a comics-lore standpoint) and then it never happens.  {much like Arrow did with OQ/LL-GA/BC, in the first season - and then moved headlong into *shudder* 'Olicity'}

[SevenStars]

Oh it's worse than that. Gabrielle Stanton - the new show runner for The Flash - used to work with Shonda Rhymes. SHONDA RHYMES. And yet CP has been sidelined and her character given no PoV. She should KNOW how to write for WoC - but NOPE.

This just means that it was because Shonda was there to give her clear directions and making it clear that she wanted the writers to write for WOC. Now that she is on her own, she is doing what comes natural to her. This just shows that her writing on GA for WOC was about following Shonda's directions.

[CabotCove]

And I don't/didn't even need WA to be together together this season to be ok with what Show's doing.  There have been ZERO hints of WA this season, to date.  None.[aside from the teeny tiny "she's not Iris" bit]

 

I think thats a matter of opinion. I disagree

Edited December 2, 2015 by WildcardC

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I think thats a matter of opinion. I disagree

 

Just for clarification.... you disagree about them not needing to be together

?  Or that there hasn't been any hints of a possible WA in the future?  Or both??

 

 

For clarification on my part, I wouldn't mind at all seeing them together now (if that is, indeed, Show's endgame).  But even without Patty in the picture, Iris still needs a little time to adjust with losing Eddie - [even though they haven't shown any of this grieving process one bit (aside from her seeing a portrait of ET in the precinct early in the start of the season)] -and knowing/thinking about the fact that Barry loves her as more than a BFF and 'adopted sister', and realizing she quite likely feels the same way.

Edited December 2, 2015 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[CabotCove]

Or that there hasn't been any hints of a possible WA in the future?

 

Just this bit.

 

Anyway I'm looking forward to something major for WestAllen in the Christmas episode (2.09), last season (1.09)  there  was a confession and a wedding band. I would like to think they wouldn't go to winter break, without hinting something with these two.

Edited December 3, 2015 by WildcardC

[rogueprinzess]

Anyway I'm looking forward to something major for WestAllen in the Christmas episode (2.09), last season (1.09)  there  was a confession and a wedding band. I would like to think they wouldn't go to winter break, without hinting something with these two.

I'm actually frightened for what they may do in this xmas episode. The stills that have been released show Barry and Patty all snuggly near the xmas tree which is VERY reminiscent of where Iris and Eddie were last xmas with Barry standing off by himself in the corner. So far this season they've done repeats of almost all of the WA moments in season 1, except with Patty being the woman. It's like the show's saying "Look, wouldn't you prefer this OTP instead of what we did last season?". And the unfair advantage Patty's gotten so far is that she's actively reciprocating Barry's gestures instead of just reacting to them the way Iris did out of shock. So of course it seems like Barry and Patty have more spark - both are completely on the same page. Anyhow, after the way Iris has been stuck into the closet for the first half of this season, my hopes aren't' there that this xmas episode is going to change much. In fact, I'm half expecting a love declaration from Barry about Patty to Iris, and Iris will respond the way she has to all the LIFE CHANGING MAJOR HAPPENINGS in her life thus far this season - with a blank smile, no emotion and unquestioned acceptance. Of course, I really, really hope I'm wrong. 

[CabotCove]

Well Iris was with Eddie in a serious relationship last year, as is Barry with Patty this season (but not at serious state yet). I dont let that ruin my spirit, Im focused on WestAllen and what little or not so little progress they will get. Batty is an obvious ship stall, I just don't care much of the goodies they get.  JMHO.

 

LOL maybe if Batty start showing some resemblance of chemistry I will start to be worried? but so far I have seen nothing "sparky" or unique about Batty.

[driedfruit]

I'm at a loss why they've given Iris such extreme life changing events when they have no intention of exploring the emotional consequences. It makes the narrative feel clunky, and Iris less of a character when we see her smiling and acting nbd after receiving life-shattering news. Francine could've easily been a past fling of Joe's, from after his wife's death. We'd still get the secret baby drama and father daughter moments, and without the cost of blasting apart Iris' childhood.

 

My favorite scene from last season used to be the gift exchange between Iris and Barry, but now that they've tactlessly shredded her past, it has lost its magic. It would've been a lovely nod to have Iris occasionally wear the wedding band throughout the series, as a reminder to her and Barry's shared history, but now the charm of it is weighed down by the godawful retcon. Otherwise, even with Barry/Patty happily together at Christmas (and no plans of resurrecting Iris/Barry for seasons to come), Iris wearing the ring and Barry glancing at it for a second wouldn't been a nice touch and a show of continuity from last season. 

Edited December 6, 2015 by driedfruit

[rogueprinzess]

 

I'm at a loss why they've given Iris such extreme life changing events when they have no intention of exploring the emotional consequences.

I think the writers want nothing more than to expand on and develop Iris' backstory and emotional development, but that the showrunners and producers have other plans. People like to default blame "the writers" for all the things that go wrong with a character and story line in a show, and while they are responsible for scribing these things, they don't get the final say in what actually ends up on our screens. CP has said in a few interviews that she's filmed tons of scenes that never made it to air. We've already seen this season that there were several WA scenes that were filmed but cut from the final product. I truly think that these writers are writing for Iris, but if the showrunners have other plans (i.e. promoting the hell out of LoT) then they can pull the plug on story lines that they think aren't as important. Writers for shows create loads of content for their characters and shows, but not all of it ends up being selected for show which is a shame.

 

 

It would've been a lovely nod to have Iris occasionally wear the wedding band throughout the series, as a reminder to her and Barry's shared history, but now the charm of it is weighed down by the godawful retcon.

The show has worked hard to unravel almost all of the love and admiration Barry had for Iris last season in the first half of this one. I just don't understand why that's necessary just so that Patty and Barry can date. As an audience, we're intelligent enough to understand that having your OTP get together instantly isn't always desired, but that doesn't mean you have to downplay their relationship just to stall it. And I'm personally not even on the train that WA can't be together sooner than later. They would be far from a boring couple; dating a superhero is no walk in the park as the comics have shown time and again. These two could be together and still facing the same amount of danger, angst and excitement as they would apart,  just in a different context.

[zannej]

I think the writers want nothing more than to expand on and develop Iris' backstory and emotional development, but that the showrunners and producers have other plans. People like to default blame "the writers" for all the things that go wrong with a character and story line in a show, and while they are responsible for scribing these things, they don't get the final say in what actually ends up on our screens. CP has said in a few interviews that she's filmed tons of scenes that never made it to air. We've already seen this season that there were several WA scenes that were filmed but cut from the final product. I truly think that these writers are writing for Iris, but if the showrunners have other plans (i.e. promoting the hell out of LoT) then they can pull the plug on story lines that they think aren't as important. Writers for shows create loads of content for their characters and shows, but not all of it ends up being selected for show which is a shame.

 

The show has worked hard to unravel almost all of the love and admiration Barry had for Iris last season in the first half of this one. I just don't understand why that's necessary just so that Patty and Barry can date. As an audience, we're intelligent enough to understand that having your OTP get together instantly isn't always desired, but that doesn't mean you have to downplay their relationship just to stall it. And I'm personally not even on the train that WA can't be together sooner than later. They would be far from a boring couple; dating a superhero is no walk in the park as the comics have shown time and again. These two could be together and still facing the same amount of danger, angst and excitement as they would apart,  just in a different context.

Good points. I think you are right that it could be the producers/showrunners that are throwing a wrench in the gears of any stories for Iris. Something like that has been happening on another show I watch. The showrunner doesn't like one of the characters and pretty much had the character wallflowered for the past several seasons. There was more focus on a minor recurring character than on the main character-- sound familiar?

 

Moving this over from the thread about Iris, I don't know if Caitlin and Iris would ever be best friends. Caitlin is rather uptight and closed off. She's a bit standoffish. I think she's not a people person and doesn't really know how to relate to people a lot of the time. I also think she pushes people away to avoid getting hurt. Plus, she seemed to dislike how much Iris talked when Barry was in a coma. Granted, she could have gotten over that, but I think her personality is just not a right match to be close to Iris. I can see them having some things in common, but never really becoming terribly close. But then, the only real chemistry I ever see between Caitlin and anyone else is with Dr. Wells (Eobard and E2 version). Ok, not always... Every once in awhile she seems to trust Cisco and they seem close, but its rare.

Edited December 7, 2015 by zannej

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

(posted this over in the episode talk thread, but bringing over here, since its more specific to this topic thread)

 

I will admit that they had me for a split second in the scene where Iris admitted to Barry that she had kept the secret of Wally from Joe and him.  Just very quickly before she revealed all, I actually thought they were going for a role reversal of the "I'm in love with you" scene that was from last year's Christmas-themed episode, which was the 9th in the season too, TMitYS. 

 

But mostly glad they didn't, since we've had pretty much no clues as to how she might be feeling/thinking in regards to Barry as a LI. 

 

I will finally say that I (think I) noticed a teeny-tiny hint of something re: WA, if they do more stuff like it later on (the little 'head laying on his shoulder' bit while watching the snow, after Iris told Barry her soul-wrenching secret)

Edited December 9, 2015 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[zannej]

I was happy to see Barry supporting her-- and Iris confiding in him. I'm still not really seeing any chemistry between Barry and Patty, but I saw it between Barry and Iris when he was comforting her.

[catrice2]

I think the problem with the whole romance of Barry and Iris is that they didn't deal on screen with what would have been a logical scene.  It should have been shown that both Barry and Iris acknowledged that they have feelings for each other and Iris could have said something like "with all due respect I don't think I can explore those feelings while I am still conflicted about Eddie's death."  I am also not clear on whether or not they are spinning it that Barry is not pursuing Iris because he feels like Eddie sacrificed himself and it would not be right. If that is the case, then that also needs to be acknowledged.  I mean, after all before Barry turned back time it was evident that Iris was ready to move forward with him in some way in spite of Eddie, is he supposed to forget that? 

 

It would be logical for Joe, who was "friends" with Eddie to have a talk with one or both of them to say, "hey, I don't know what happened but it was obvious you two had feelings that you need to explore.  If you choose not to, I respect that, but just know that Eddie was so  in love with Iris that he would want her to be happy.   He knew full well that that happiness might involve Barry, but made the choice anyway, so don't let Eddie be the obstacle after Iris has some time to get herself together."

 

The fact that EVERYONE in team Flash was aware of how Barry felt, and/or saw the "future" that stated they were together, yet no one has tried to find out what happened to that is not realistic.  Cisco can make comments to Jay and Caitlyn, but has not said anything to Barry about Iris?  

 

It is also not realistic that they can believe in Earth two, etc. but cannot believe what the computer (what happened to the computer, I can't remember the name) foretold, or what Barry himself experienced in the episode where Iris kisses him. 

 

If they decided to drop Barry and Iris, fine, but they needed some type of logical closure.  I still feel as if Barry needs to "man up."  In the scene where Iris sees him with Patty he puts his hands in his pocket like a little boy....I mean if they were high school age some of the stuff they have Barry do would be cute, but even a geekly adult would not do some of the stuff he does...ditto with Cisco.  I mean really, who would date him? 

 

I find it odd also that the writers write any chemistry or "spark" with Barry only when he is the Flash.  As I type that, however, I do admit I did see glimpses of it with Barry and Iris last year when he wasn't the Flash. I am open to different things and I can't figure out if the reason I am not warming to Patty and Barry is because they have made her too "perfect" for him, or if it is still the way he is portrayed. 

 

As it stands, if they kill Patty and then put Barry and Iris together It will feel like she is second choice.  Adding another love interest for her is just unwise. I think the writers read blogs, etc.  I noted that last year everyone was up in arms about Iris showing interest in Barry after Linda, so this year he has a new love interest and she is all but buying Patty lingerie because she is cheering for them so much...I mean she is SO HAPPY for them.  There have also been comments about her being attracted to Caucasian men ( Barry, Eddie, her comments about Oliver), so in walks the new boss/possible love interest.....

[phoenics]

I agree that they should have resolved Barry/Iris in some way - even if it was just Iris saying she just couldn't "go there" with anyone right now - after what happened to Eddie... and with Barry believing that it would just be wrong given how Eddie sacrificed himself for them... because he wasn't strong enough.

 

But then again - bringing up either leaves it explicitly hanging and I wonder if they wanted to fully back burner westallen after the success of the first season to see if they could "do better".

 

I vacillate between the "do better with Batty" scenario vs a "gotcha!" to fans who bashed Iris for nearly the same identical storyline that Patty has gotten this year.  But then I think that the writers originally did not intend for Iris to know about Barry being the Flash so soon and wonder if the love interest storyline they had this year was originally Iris' before they switched it since they changed it so Iris would know.  AK said that it was fan input that made them reveal the truth to Iris sooner... it feels like this season has been them treading water - them switching everything would lend credence to why Iris seems to be not used properly.  The whole Batty storyline was meant to be hers - which would have made much more sense than what we are getting.  I get it - the show needs to have a tension somewhere, so without Iris being in the dark, that wasn't it and putting Westallen together without the tension of "she doesn't know the truth" might not have seemed appealing to the writers, so we got this sludge instead.

 

I feel like the storyline with Iris' boss is just meant to be a "do over" for Barry so he can finally man up.

 

 

The problem is Batty - clearly that will be done by episode 11, but whether that's because Patty is dead or she dumps Barry for lying to her or he dumps her to protect her... I dunno...

[Ruby25]

 

I vacillate between the "do better with Batty" scenario vs a "gotcha!" to fans who bashed Iris for nearly the same identical storyline that Patty has gotten this year.  But then I think that the writers originally did not intend for Iris to know about Barry being the Flash so soon and wonder if the love interest storyline they had this year was originally Iris' before they switched it since they changed it so Iris would know.  AK said that it was fan input that made them reveal the truth to Iris sooner... it feels like this season has been them treading water - them switching everything would lend credence to why Iris seems to be not used properly.  The whole Batty storyline was meant to be hers - which would have made much more sense than what we are getting.

 

 

The problem is Batty - clearly that will be done by episode 11, but whether that's because Patty is dead or she dumps Barry for lying to her or he dumps her to protect her... I dunno...

To me the very best option of those choices is that she dumps him and leaves town. If she dies, he'll take forever to get over it and it's another tragedy. If he dumps her to protect her it leaves things too open-ended for her to come back someday or that they could get back together. But if she dumps him for lying to her or because she realizes she doesn't want to date The Flash and can't handle that life, that's a pretty nice, permanent end.

 

You know, I find your theory really interesting- that they may have been planning to have Barry/Iris get together this season with her still not knowing his identity, and that it was fan/audience complaining that made them decide to have her find out sooner. Tbh, that would have necessitated a HUGE change in plans in that case, and they had to figure out what to do instead this season and just bring in another love interest to take over the original story idea.

 

I wonder if that has any truth to it. The original idea would have resembled Lois & Clark's pattern quite a bit- I think her and Clark got together in the second season but she still didn't know he was Superman until Season 3. Hmm. I wonder if that would have worked on this show...I still think having everyone but Iris continue to know about it would have been difficult. On L&C, no one else knew he was Superman either, so it wasn't like she was the only one in the dark. If they wanted to go this route, that was probably the bigger hurdle. Deciding to have a Team Flash makes everyone outside the team feel irrelevant. I think they could have only done that if they'd set things up differently.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Ruby25

[phoenics]

Yeah - the reason it worked fine on Lois & Clark was because only Clark's parents knew AND they were playing on the angle of Clark being an outsider who couldn't let anyone in.  The only reason Lois could forgive Clark was specifically because she eventually understood (thanks to Ma Kent) how scared Clark has always been about revealing who he really was to someone for fear that they would reject that part of him or only like him for that part of him.  It was a HUGE part of the mythos - the whole isolation.

 

Incidentally - that was a huge theme of why Roswell's Max and Liz were such a hit.  You have a guy who is so in love with a girl that he risks all of his fears of being discovered and killed that he's been hiding his WHOLE life - to save her life.  I mean - that's just an easy love story to write.

 

That kind of isolation was a HUGE theme of the Superman mythos - and I was irritated with Smallville when they had essentially a cadre of people finding out about his secret. While Lois was still in the dark.  I think re-imagining grown superheroes in a "teenage" mindset creates these issues.  If Superman only became Supes once he got to Metropolis and NO ONE else knew his secret, then a lot of the childish stuff just falls away.  Smallville had its moments but that whole problem with needing a "team" because alone you're not powerful enough to face foes that a grown Superman would dispense of easily... meh.

 

And that's my issue with The Flash sometimes.  

 

He shouldn't need a Team Flash - and that Team Flash dumbs him down and infantilizes him.  I had hoped that this season we would see Barry grow up but we haven't really.  Oliver - Green Arrow - needs a team because he doesn't have powers.  And even with Ollie - he was on an island practically alone becoming a badass and learning to rely on his own skill set BEFORE he came back and got a team.  Ollie I can see needing a team.

 

Barry on the other hand just gets less smart and less badass as time goes on.  We've talked about how having Joe there hurts Iris' growth, but he kinda does that for Barry too.  It's hard to see Barry as a full adult when all of his heart to hearts end up being with Joe.  Yes it's a "warm" part of the show, but it makes Barry look like a child.  

 

I miss the graphics overlay on the screen when Barry would analyze a crime scene.  It illustrated brilliantly how smart Barry was and that he could handle his own business.  A man who was doing that kind of analysis (the angles and geometry, not to mention the encyclopedic knowledge he had) WOULD NEVER NEED to ask how fast he needed to run up the side of a building.

 

I get it.  The writers fell in love with the whole "Team Flash" concept - but honestly at this point, the Justice League would look at Barry with all of his training wheels and go "No thanks".  And the way they wrote Batty as so childish and teenager-ish didn't help.  Just because they've slept together doesn't really make Barry look more mature.  I was watching his scene with Linda and the whole triangle with Iris, Barry and Linda had SO MUCH more of a grown up vibe to it than Batty ever did.  I think the only time Batty felt a little more mature was when Flash was begging Patty not to shoot Mardon.  Other than that?  Nope.  Even Barry and Iris, when they were happy and giddy never came off that way because Iris was there as the straight man to Barry's giggle nerdy self.  It worked - she grounded him.  With Patty she doesn't ground or contrast with him so (imo) it falls flat.  This is why I shrug when some fans claim that Patty/Caitlin/Felicity work better with Barry because science. No - with science as the grounding factor, all of the interactions with Barry go off into nerd land and feel forced and goofy.

[Ruby25]

Yeah, I really think that's a very sound theory, and I can't believe I hadn't thought of that before. But it kind of explains everything, imo. They didn't want to let Iris in on it, which means they were going to drag it into Season 2. If they had done that, they wouldn't have needed Patty, who basically fills the role of "person who doesn't know he's The Flash," because it would have still been Iris. And yep, I'm sure they would have gone ahead and done B/I, but in that Superman/Lois Lane style, with her finding out eventually for maximum dramatic impact.

 

The only problem would be that the audience would still dislike Iris I guess, because she didn't know and everyone else did. So their hand was forced and they decided to do this story with a different love interest instead, so they could rehabilitate Iris for the audience. It does make you wonder what could have been.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Ruby25

[catrice2]

Lord, I totally agree about Barry not being allowed to show how smart he is, and the lack of the need for a "Team Flash." 

[phoenics]

Yeah, I really think that's a very sound theory, and I can't believe I hadn't thought of that before. But it kind of explains everything, imo. They didn't want to let Iris in on it, which means they were going to drag it into Season 2. If they had done that, they wouldn't have needed Patty, who basically fills the role of "person who doesn't know he's The Flash," because it would have still been Iris. And yep, I'm sure they would have gone ahead and done B/I, but in that Superman/Lois Lane style, with her finding out eventually for maximum dramatic impact.

 

The only problem would be that the audience would still dislike Iris I guess, because she didn't know and everyone else did. So their hand was forced and they decided to do this story with a different love interest instead, so they could rehabilitate Iris for the audience. It does make you wonder what could have been.

One benefit to this is that since Patty and Iris had the SAME storyline, and many fans didn't excoriate Patty for the same reasons they did Iris, the writers/producers can rest assured that some fans simply want to hate Iris and will find reasons to do it. There is no need now to cater to those fans. They can write Iris straight out - and once she returns Barry's affections - I think most reasonable fans will be onboard.

But they really do need to get to the "Iris returning Barry's feelings" soon though.

[SevenStars]

One benefit to this is that since Patty and Iris had the SAME storyline, and many fans didn't excoriate Patty for the same reasons they did Iris, the writers/producers can rest assured that some fans simply want to hate Iris and will find reasons to do it. There is no need now to cater to those fans. They can write Iris straight out - and once she returns Barry's affections - I think most reasonable fans will be onboard.

But they really do need to get to the "Iris returning Barry's feelings" soon though.

But I think a lot fans dislike Iris because she didn't return Barry's feelings while Barry was longing for her. I think that was one of the main reason Iris received so much hate because fans wanted her to instantly drop Eddie for Barry. When she didn't do that and continued to display mix feelings, the fans really started to hate her.

While on the other hand Patty showed that she wanted Barry the moment he meet her.

Fans always like/love woman who desires their hero.

[Ruby25]

But I think a lot fans dislike Iris because she didn't return Barry's feelings while Barry was longing for her. I think that was one of the main reason Iris received so much hate because fans wanted her to instantly drop Eddie for Barry. When she didn't do that and continued to display mix feelings, the fans really started to hate her.

While on the other hand Patty showed that she wanted Barry the moment he meet her.

Fans always like/love woman who desires their hero.

Yeah, that's very true, actually. So who knows, maybe if their original plan had been to end Season 1 with Iris deciding she loves and wants to be with Barry, and then they go into that relationship in Season 2, except for the fact that she still doesn't know his secret, maybe people would have liked her more. People loved episode 15, where Iris confessed her feelings, so I think you might be right- that a lot of that dislike simply stemmed from her continuing to reject Barry.

 

They might still be frustrated by her being in the dark, especially if she was the only person who didn't know, but yeah, I think they may have liked her more if she simply returned Barry's affections. Now I kinda wonder how that whole storyline would have worked out- maybe it would have been better than this pointless B/P one? I don't know, it might have been.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Ruby25

[phoenics]

Part of the "Iris not returning Barry's feelings" hatred though is sexism and racism. There were a lot of "well she's not so hot" and "she doesn't deserve him"... A woman doesn't HAVE to return the feelings of a man just because he confesses his love to her. Not to mention some fans already bashing her when she DID return the feelings in ep 15 because she technically cheated on Eddie.

Some fans were going to hate regardless. And Laurel returned Oliver's feelings too - in S2, but fans were determined to hate her (I know Laurel had other problems - she dared to be really visibly angry at the male lead for an extended time - omg how will the fanboys live?!?). Honestly with the way the writers set up Oliver to cheat with her sister and her sister "dying", Lauriver was doomed from the start. There is no way to write that without making Laurel into an absolute doormat and a fool and no way to write her being realistically angry (which she was) without everyone hating her because sexism. If it had been anyone but her sister then maybe - but ugh.

This is why I had hoped that they would start to show Iris having feelings for Barry while he was with Patty, but doing everything in her power to hide them and to be happy for him and Patty. But I think they were afraid that fans would react to her the way they did with Linda. Instead they are playing her more like Felicity vs Sara in S2... which might work... but they can't "spring" westallen on everyone with no buildup like they sprung Olicity on us at the end of S2 and then full on Olicity in S3. It was such a jarring switch that I had to really adjust to accept it.

My main point now though is that they need to stop with the "slow burn" thing with Iris' feelings. Let her show she has feelings for him - and perhaps let the next obstacle be Barry's pathological fear that something will happen to Iris due to this mess with Patty. I know it's tried and tired trope territory (holy alliteration batman!), but they need to just get to it.

One spoiler from GG is that:

Barry is going to start to wonder - due to stuff with Patty - if he can actually have a relationship with anyone at all... I keep wondering/hoping that something will spark between Barry and Iris sometime after Patty, and that when Barry sees that Iris' new boss might offer Iris some happiness, he and Iris have a "discussion" about it where Iris is trying to understand "them", but Barry pushes her toward the boss due to him not wanting her to get hurt? I dunno. I'm not too keen on Iris being with her boss either. I have no idea what these writers are doing, lol. Do they?

Edited December 13, 2015 by phoenics

[zannej]

I admit that when I first started watching, I didn't like Iris and it wasn't because she didn't reciprocate Barry's feelings, but that she was sort of written like an annoying airhead. She whined about Barry telling her to take journalism and it was boring and then when she asked Barry to explain the science stuff to her she was wanting to drink champagne instead. The writing for her was not very intelligent-- and the Iris in the comic books was very warm and intelligent. Fortunately she didn't stay like that and I've grown to like her. I think that Candice did the best she could with what she was given by the writers.

 

It sounds like they are going to find all sorts of diversions to keep Barry and Iris apart and that might get old over time. I wonder if they will have them hook up and then break up again because Barry is afraid she'll get hurt if they are together.

 

Edited to change Patty to Iris bc I typod.

Edited December 15, 2015 by zannej

[Ruby25]

You know, there is a part of me that suspects they may be trying to bring all these "other people" in and kind of get them out of the way now because maybe they DO plan to put Barry and Iris together on a more or less permanent basis when it happens. It's certainly possible- Barry/Patty has felt forced and kinda rushed, and I think it's obvious this editor guy is meant to be a quick rebound so that Iris realizes she's over Eddie.

 

I still predict Iris will finally confess her feelings by the end of this season and then next season will be full on WestAllen somehow- because I think the show probably does want to get to the marriage and the descendants of the Flash family tree and all of that (you know Bart Allen is someone they won't be able to resist bringing on sooner rather than later) and frankly, the idea of blending the two families plays right into the show's strengths as far as that goes (you can just see in the last episode how important and strong the West-Allen family stuff really is for this show).

[phoenics]

It sounds like they are going to find all sorts of diversions to keep Barry and Patty apart and that might get old over time. I wonder if they will have them hook up and then break up again because Barry is afraid she'll get hurt if they are together.

You mean Barry and Iris, right?

Edited December 14, 2015 by phoenics

[Trini]

You know, there is a part of me that suspects they may be trying to bring all these "other people" in and kind of get them out of the way now because maybe they DO plan to put Barry and Iris together on a more or less permanent basis when it happens. ...

 

Yeah; I had read up a little about Flash characters, so I figured that Patty would show up eventually. For exactly that reason: get the alternate love interests done with so they could focus on Barry/Iris.

[zannej]

You mean Barry and Iris, right?

Oops. yeah. Brain fart. I fixed it now.

[Ruby25]

Listening to Andrew Kreisberg talk about the show on Kevin Smith's podcast, I've become even more convinced that the show wanted to rip off the Buffy setup so bad (Buffy, Xander and Willow), that they totally sacrificed the actual comic book Flash stuff, like how important the Barry/Iris love story is supposed to be. He described Barry, Cisco and Caitlin as best friends without a word about Iris. And I'm sorry, but the love of Caitlin comes purely from their love for Danielle Panabaker behind the scenes.

 

Caitlin doesn't have to exist and the show would be no different without her- she brings nothing to the dynamic. Cisco being the only lab sidekick would work just as well, since at least he's funny and not a horrendously shitty actor.

[phoenics]

I think AK is friends with DP - which is why he continually defers to her even though she is a pretty poor actress.  

 

Insert Papa Pope's rant to Olivia about how she has to be twice as good here....

Edited December 18, 2015 by phoenics

[rogueprinzess]

I think AK is friends with DP - which is why he continually defers to her even though she is a pretty poor actress.  

 

Insert Papa Pope's rant to Olivia about how she has to be twice as good here....

 

I think there's been very clear favoritism for DP/CS character since season 1. She's had the most screen time of all the women that have ever been on this show, though Patty is fast catching up. I wonder sometimes if it's because she's one of the most senior actors on the show, and short of Jesse and Tom, has the most film/tv credit under her belt. I'm still not exactly sure how, but she's been doing this for close to 20 years. So maybe she costs the most out of the cast?

[zannej]

I don't know. I don't wish anything bad upon her, but I think the show could do without her character. They could find a medical doctor type replacement with a better actress if they absolutely needed a medical doctor. If Henry Allen is still actually alive, maybe he could fill that role. Of course, there are problems with getting rid of female cast members because people scream sexism and misogyny when it happens. Sometimes its true, but in this case it would be because the actress just makes poor choices when acting and it can be painful to watch. The guy playing Jay isn't so stellar either-- although he was very good on an episode of Rissoli and Isles I saw recently (well, I saw part of it-- I can't stand the chick who plays Isles who used to be on NCIS).

 

If Dr. Wells survives the season it will be interesting to see if he bonds with Cisco or of Cisco will remain too wary after what happened with Eobard. I think in some ways, Cisco and Eobard got along so well because Eobard was from a future generation so he liked some of the same music and movies. It seems E2 Wells likes oldies.

 

I admit I'm not really interested in seeing Barry feeling jealous of Wally or vice versa. I could see Iris feeling a little put off if her dad suddenly wants to spend more time with Wally and pushes her aside (IF he does that-- which I'm betting he will). It would be natural for her to be at least a little annoyed-- but if she did get annoyed, people would probably say she's a bitch. It's bad enough she had to take second chair to Barry for a long time though.

[SevenStars]

I'm indifferent to Dp/CS but I don't think she is acting so badly the writers need to get ride off her and also enough people seems to like her character and enjoy her acting style. We only really have two women in the main cast, I don't want to see that become less. The show is already male-center so much that often times it's too much for me. So I just want them to writer better storylines for the women characters. I just want them to write for them.

I would also love for them to add Linda to the cast as a regualr.

[zannej]

Comic books are notoriously male dominated and I've heard that female comic book fans are treated worse than male comic book fans when dealing with the writers and other fans at conventions. I was lucky enough to have gone to SDCC before it was so huge and there were not a lot of women there at the time, so everyone was very nice to me. But, the female characters, unless they are the lead/title characters are always written through the filter of being some sort of foil for the males.

 

Speaking of which, when Caitlin made a remark about Dr. Wells being stubborn like all of her male patients, it occurred to me that she doesn't seem to have anything but male patients. LOL.

 

I think the actress would be better suited to a sitcom where the over-acting and bizarre facial expressions would make more sense. I think she has potential if she just toned it down a bit and acted more like a real person instead of a caricature.

 

Linda would be a great addition. I love the actress. I wouldn't be surprised if they kept her around and hooked her up with Wally eventually.

 

On thing I am wondering about is if they will ever try to add Barry's grandson, Bart. They would have to either bring back Eddie or change Bart's parentage though-- since Bart's mother was from the Thawne family. If they could pull it off, it would be interesting to see how Iris would feel about her future grandson.

Edited December 20, 2015 by zannej

[Ruby25]

I can't imagine them not wanting to bring on Bart Allen at some point. He's one of the iconic Flashes, like Jay Garrick and Wally West. I'm sure we'll see him eventually- it would be interesting to see Barry and Iris come face to face with their grandson. With how quickly they're brought in the other Flashes, I bet they'll bring him on in Season 3, even.

[rogueprinzess]

We only really have two women in the main cast, I don't want to see that become less. The show is already male-center so much that often times it's too much for me. So I just want them to writer better storylines for the women characters. I just want them to write for them.

I would also love for them to add Linda to the cast as a regualr.

 

I guess my point was that despite the fact that the credits say that there are two women in the main cast, you wouldn't know that if you watched this show without watching the credits. CPs role was supposed to be the lead female part, and yet there have been whole episodes where she wasn't even present. I get that she doesn't have to be there all the time, but if we were to compare sheer screen time between CP and DP, there's a glaring difference. Yes, in S1, Iris wasn't in the "know" about Barry's secret, but that shouldn't have stopped the writers from showing us her life/development as a character outside of that. We never get to hear what Iris is thinking or feeling from her actual lips. Caitlin has had several monologues where she's talked about her past, her relationships, how she feels etc. I'm just saying that considering that CS/DP is supposed to be supporting vs CP being leading, the screen time doesn't show it.

 

But ICA that the writing for (and the amount of) women on this show is terribly lacking, and embarrassingly more so with the addition of a female EP this season (Stanton) who worked under a writer/producer that was so earnestly feminist when it came to writing for women (Shonda Rimes). It's like the showrunners don't understand that you can have a show that can keep the fanboys interested but draw in more female viewers as well.

 

On thing I am wondering about is if they will ever try to add Barry's grandson, Bart.

 

That could be cool, but not this season for the love of cheese. There are already so many characters that have fallen into the under-utilized wasteland already, let's not add another iconic speedster to the heap. I'm still not sure they'll do Wally any justice at this point. Also, having Bart would mean the show would have to acknowledge that Barry and Iris actually get together at some point. This season seems to be desperately running in the opposite direction of that. 

Edited December 21, 2015 by rogueprinzess

[Trini]

... That could be cool, but not this season for the love of cheese. There are already so many characters that have fallen into the under-utilized wasteland already, let's not add another iconic speedster to the heap. I'm still not sure they'll do Wally any justice at this point. Also, having Bart would mean the show would have to acknowledge that Barry and Iris actually get together at some point. This season seems to be desperately running in the opposite direction of that. 

 

Yes to all of this, but about the part I bolded; I'm really surprised that they've barely done anything with Jay Garrick so far. Now I'm really annoyed that they pushed Henry Allen off to Offscreenville, since Jay isn't even playing the Mentor role. (He taught Barry one new skill, and that was it.) So disappointing. I should be excited about Wally but... this show's track record.

 

And yes, I don't think they should even think about adding Bart until Barry/Iris are solid as a couple.

 

Back to Wally coming in;

spoilers say Barry will feel "uneasy" about Joe's newfound son. Understandable, but I will have little to no patience for Barry being a sad panda about it since he just got his father back.

Go spend time with your father, Barry!

[SevenStars]

Yes to all of this, but about the part I bolded; I'm really surprised that they've barely done anything with Jay Garrick so far. Now I'm really annoyed that they pushed Henry Allen off to Offscreenville, since Jay isn't even playing the Mentor role. (He taught Barry one new skill, and that was it.) So disappointing. I should be excited about Wally but... this show's track record.

I think the problem with Jay is that his place is taking by Harrison.

[johntfs]

It's probably a little early for me to comment here.  I'm a late comer who has only caught up through S2EP04 and has just started ep05.  I agree that Emily Bett Rickards has chemistry with Grant Gustin, she also has it with Stephen Amell.  Honestly that young woman could generate chemistry with a lump of wet tree moss.

 

The Patty character seem a little off to me and I will not be surprised if she turns out to be an Earth 2 Patty who learned her counterpart's history, murdered her and then dumped her down a wormhole with the express intent of getting close to Barry/The Flash and killing him.  She has kind of a "break into your house and surprise you by waiting for you in your shower with a butcher knife*" vibe about her.  If not she seems to be shoehorned in for the purpose of given somebody someone that Barry can keep his secret from.

 

I like the way people are comparing Earth 2 Wells unfavorably to the Thoene Wells, who was a vicious murderer who was still able to maintain a fairly pleasant work environment.

 

 

*edited to add "with a butcher knife"

Edited January 14, 2016 by johntfs

[Ruby25]

 

The Patty character seem a little off to me and I will not be surprised if she turns out to be an Earth 2 Patty who learned her counterpart's history, murdered her and then dumped her down a wormhole with the express intent of getting close to Barry/The Flash and killing him.  She has kind of a "break into your house and surprise you by waiting for you in your shower" vibe about her.  If not she seems to be shoehorned in for the purpose of given somebody someone that Barry can keep his secret from.

 

 

LOL- that's true, she does have kind of a frozen, maniacal smile. I don't think she's the greatest actress though.

[zannej]

It's probably a little early for me to comment here.  I'm a late comer who has only caught up through S2EP04 and has just started ep05.  I* agree that Emily Bett Rickards has chemistry with Grant Gustin, she also has it with Stephen Amell.  Honestly that young woman could generate chemistry with a lump of wet tree moss.

 

The Patty character seem a little off to me and I will not be surprised if she turns out to be an Earth 2 Patty who learned her counterpart's history, murdered her and then dumped her down a wormhole with the express intent of getting close to Barry/The Flash and killing him.  She has kind of a "break into your house and surprise you by waiting for you in your shower" vibe about her.  If not she seems to be shoehorned in for the purpose of given somebody someone that Barry can keep his secret from.

 

I like the way people are comparing Earth 2 Wells unfavorably to the Thawne Wells, who was a vicious murderer who was still able to maintain a fairly pleasant work environment.

Yeah, other than the way he got rid of Hartley and the time he got really pissed at Cisco and grabbed his arm and told him something like "Don't do that again" in a rather creepy way, he actually was very chummy with the team. I think that despite himself he genuinely cared about all of them and enjoyed their company. I still loved the way Cisco said "Our wells was evil, but you're just a dick!" I think that Eobard realized that he needed to be nice to people to get what he wanted-- he wasn't very nice to Eddie at all though.

 

I think E2 Wells will probably start getting along with people a bit better. I hope he stops doing the gruff voice thing. I could actually see him starting to get along better with Jay. They worked well together in the last episode. Even though I'm not big on romances, I'd love to see him interact with Dr. McGee.

[Actionmage]

and putting Westallen together without the tension of "she doesn't know the truth" might not have seemed appealing to the writers, so we got this sludge instead.

 

Did you mean the writers putting WestAllen together this season or ever? Because if this is what we get because the writers aren't interested in them being a couple, their WestAllen is gonna suuuuuck.

 

 

The Patty character seem a little off to me and I will not be surprised if she turns out to be an Earth 2 Patty who learned her counterpart's history, murdered her and then dumped her down a wormhole with the express intent of getting close to Barry/The Flash and killing him.

 

It would explain why Patty has been so desperate to get on Joe's Task Force of 2 and why she seemed aggressively available to Barry. It would add a whole fun layer to their "blind" date- Patty wondering if this guy was really the Scarlet Speedster when he can't even come up with a reasonable excuse for why he's having problems. (Until after he's sorta got his sight back and the date is, essentially, over!) 

 

I'm not against Patty, and don't need her to be a villain, but as another of Zoom's kidnappees, it makes sense to try to go unexpected in order to get close to Barry.  I mean, Zoom's outing Barry all over the 'verse, so  having yet another person actually know his "secret" might push Barry to going public- which would also negate the supposed blackmail, as if the upcoming show won't, to a degree.

[rogueprinzess]

 

Yeah, other than the way he got rid of Hartley and the time he got really pissed at Cisco and grabbed his arm and told him something like "Don't do that again" in a rather creepy way, he actually was very chummy with the team. I think that despite himself he genuinely cared about all of them and enjoyed their company. I still loved the way Cisco said "Our wells was evil, but you're just a dick!" I think that Eobard realized that he needed to be nice to people to get what he wanted-- he wasn't very nice to Eddie at all though.

 

Eobard Wells actually admitted to Barry that he did grow to like and care about Team Flash and even Barry despite knowing the ends to his means. One of the main things that disappointed me about the Reverse Flash's story line was that we never got to find out just what it was Barry's alter-ego did to Thawne that made him hate him enough to travel time to kill him. Maybe E2's Thawne will shed some light, but I don't trust the writers to remember that loose string from last season. But digressing, yes, Eobard was far more "socially conscious" than Dick!Wells. I think that it's due to the stereotypical "arrogant genius" complex that most high-functioning people fall into. Few people in Dick!Well's life have likely ever been able to keep up with and/or understand him, and as a result he probably became a recluse that often works alone or only with secular underlings. He's more believable as the head of a bleeding-edge scientific facility iMO. He kind of reminds me of a slightly less couth Caitlin.