S02.E08: Legends Of Today

[quarks]

If they could try making Felicity more than a Mary Sue that would help. There is no way she can be a CEO of a major company AND be perfect at Arrow-stuff too. Not possible and the writers can kiss my ass. Real working women KNOW how impossible that would be to do. Please oh please let them writer a story where Felicity gets booted out because she cannot do both!? Please?! Otherwise, she's nothing but fan service and a Mary Sue.

 

 

I'd like to respond to two things here:

 

1. Since you're aren't watching Arrow, for the record, yes, Felicity has been shown having problems running Palmer Tech this season. It just wasn't brought up in this episode.

 

2. I have a real problem with this entire complaint, largely because this complaint - that a character can't both run a major company and be a superhero - wasn't directed at Ray Palmer or Oliver Queen, both of whom were running the same company while doing superhero/Arrow/vigilante stuff, or Malcolm Merlyn, who ran a multibillion company while supervillaining, or, last year, Reverse-Flash/Harrison Wells, who was running the (admittedly smaller) Star Labs while running around supervillaining and murdering people. It also hasn't been directed against Bruce Wayne/Batman, Tony Stark/Iron Man. No one called Matt Murdoch a Mary Sue because he was both lawyering and vigilanting.

 

No, this complaint is getting aimed at two characters - Laurel, where fans are complaining not that her job as a prosecutor is against her role as a vigilante, but that it's "unrealistic" for her to do both, and now, Felicity.  Notice something about both of them?

 

I'm not arguing that Felicity doing both is realistic. But I am saying that she's doing something that's standard in comic books and films based on these comic books, and singling her (and, yes, to be fair, Laurel) for this strikes me as misogynistic.

Edited December 2, 2015 by quarks

[nerdyduck]

Love the crossover.  The Hawk wings turned out better than I expected.  I do agree it's odd that the have the Oliver kid storyline in the Flash episode.

 

Seriously people, get better locks for your places.

 

Where does Jay hang out during all this time he's not around?

[Jenesis]

 

They hobbled Iris possibly beyond repair when they made her a journalist rather than the psychologist the casting side called for.  She doesn't know science like Caitlyn or Wells, and she doesn't know police work like Joe, Barry and Patty.  In an episode where they have to incorporate seven important additional characters on to the show, there isn't time for someone like Iris who really doesn't have anything to add to the plot.

 

 

I don't find that to be true. Iris deals in information. She not only researches, she talks to the everyday people and would be able to assemble pieces of a puzzle with the rest of Team Flash using what she uncovers. When Caitlyn wanted to find out about Ronnie AKA Burning Man, she used Iris' research. And she was just a blogger then. With CCPN behind her, she has access to all sorts of useful facts. Non-scientific facts that can help out. But TPTB doesn't want to show that, for some reason.

[benteen]

Hard to take Savage seriously with that accent.

 

That being said, the character interaction was good.  Particularly Barry and Oliver.  Liked the stuff with Wells and Caitlin too.

[LisaM]

I thought this was an awesome episode. Loved Team Arrow introducing themselves to Kendra as well as Malcolm suddenly appearing. Great banter between Barry and Oliver and between Felicity and Cisco.

Plus...Oliver's kid finally appears. So nice to see Moira in the previously clip.

Looking forward to tomorrow's episode.

Edited December 2, 2015 by LisaM

[SevenStars]

I don't find that to be true. Iris deals in information. She not only researches, she talks to the everyday people and would be able to assemble pieces of a puzzle with the rest of Team Flash using what she uncovers. When Caitlyn wanted to find out about Ronnie AKA Burning Man, she used Iris' research. And she was just a blogger then. With CCPN behind her, she has access to all sorts of useful facts. Non-scientific facts that can help out. But TPTB doesn't want to show that, for some reason.

I agree. There are ways the writers could have put her in the main plot. They just seems to not want her to be part of it. It has become obvious that Iris absent have nothing to do with CP acting or Iris career but simply the writers don't care about the character. That's making me lose interest in show.

[Trini]

Enough nitpicks for now, I really did enjoy seeing Oliver and Barry (and Felicity!) working together again, and their styles and experience conflicting.

 

Cisco continues to have chemistry with everybody.

 

Vandal is formidable, and so is Hawkman. Good start for Legends.

 

Hope we get more Diggle in the second part.

[Sakura12]

I enjoyed this hour, it's like most of the Flash episodes just sit back and watch. Could've done without Oliver's baby mama drama though. That's an Arrow storyline. 

 

The Hawks are okay, hopefully they'll pair better with the Legends team. Vandal needs to do more for me to see him as threat so I'll wait for LoT. Because I mean DD is fun and all but he doesn't do anything but talk. I need more from a villain than saying funny one liners. It would've been better for me if Savage didn't talk that much and just did stuff. 

 

Also Oliver your new secret lair is not secret if everyone knows where it is! 

 

I don't think Sara's with her mom either since she's not in the crossover, she probably peaced out on her too. 

[kismet]

The problem with IRIS is not that she is a journalist, it's that the writers do not know how to work they to their advantage. Yes, as a psychologist she might have an easier fit, but then she would be stepping on Caitlin's toes a lot. But as an investigative reporter, she has skills and talents. I'm not saying make her a tech genius in which she can hack stuff. But certainly, a lot of what Cisco does to bring information to Team Flash, Iris could do some of that.

 

Journalists need to find information and piece together puzzles that is how they get stories to report. Give Iris access to a super computer (that could be engineered by Cisco) and let her provide valuable resources & insight into the cases. She has a brain & an inquisitive mind, she offers a valuable insight if they wrote her into the main storyline. I think if they want to give her more important things to do, they could give her stuff to do. The writers seem content with keeping her adjacent to the main story, which is frustrating.

[pivot]

Weird, that's been Iris' running gag for most of this season (to date)...... Patty's gotten more screen time and important things to do/know than Iris. Iris' whole reason to be on the show this season (so far) is for the not-dead MamaDrama and giving Barry the very occasional quick morale boost.

And that's a problem, to me, re: Laurel. Having Black Canary on a show that's centered around Green Arrow; the female counterpart to the male costumed hero and she's not the "leading lady". But that, sadly, seems to be par for the course for the guys running these shows.

Laurel being sidelined has more to do with the actress's lack of chemistry with the lead and her limited acting ability than anything else IMO. The writers did their best to push her into the main storyline by giving her entire episodes centered around her. The problem is that the love interest role is done better by EBR/Felicity and the black canary role is done better by CL/Sara.

As for Iris, it's hard to work her into the main storyline with her being a reporter. They should have had her be a cop like her father or an attorney. It's too bad because I really like the actress but she just has nothing to do on the show.

I will say tonight did nothing to make me want to watch LoT. Hawkgirl and Hawkman's acting was pretty painful as was the whole star-crossed lovers from Egypt nonsense.

And Cisco gets "vibes" now? Oy. That's silly.

Edited December 2, 2015 by pivot

[blaksheba]

Its a shame; I think I may have to give up this show. I find it utterly horrid the way Candice Patton is disrespected on this show.

[tennisgurl]

All in all, a really fun episode, with a lot of awesome stuff in it. It got me to want to watch the League spin-off more (and I was already planning on watching) so mission accomplished. 

 

I joke about The League of Dramatic Standing, but this is just getting ridiculous. Is Malcolm just the Exposition fairy now? And like a fairy,he appears and disappears as quickly as he came. 

 

Hawkman is kind of a dick, but I like Lady Hawk. 

 

Oliver and Barry are the cutest friends. Almost as cute as Oliver and Felicity are as a couple. He calls her Honey! 

 

I did miss Iris.

 

Cisco just makes everything better. Can he and Thea hang out more please?

 

Now that I think about it, probably not a perfect episode, but I enjoyed it a whole lot. Onto Arrow!

Edited December 2, 2015 by tennisgurl

[Angel12d]

I'm an Arrow viewer (haven't seen any Flash this season) but I enjoyed the episode mostly. I do agree that they need to stop featuring Oliver's kid or any Arrow character development on Flash though. It's weird. We shouldn't have to watch both shows to know what's going on with the characters. And that goes both ways for people who only watch The Flash, too.

 

I loved all the Oliver/Barry stuff. They have great banter/chemistry. I always enjoy Barry/Felicity. They're cute and harmless. And Oliver admitting he was wrong that guys like them don't get the girl didn't really feel like it related to Patty at all. I saw that as a hint for Iris down the line. That's how I read it anyway.

 

Caitlin's whole plot was a snore fest but then I think DP is a terrible actress and I switch off when she's on screen. I definitely think more room could have been made for Iris there. 

 

Cisco continues to be adorable but I feel so sorry for him that it won't work out with Kendra. He'd never felt that way before! Bless his heart. It makes it especially bad when Hawkman came across like a douche. Didn't like him at all. In fact, wasn't that impressed with the LoT characters at all. Maybe they'll improve on their own show.

 

And as usual I continue to love Olicity, although this baby mama crap is already annoying and it hasn't even really started. No thanks. Be gone demon child!

 

Forgot to add that I loved Thea and how she handled Vandal Savage, just getting shit done. Yasss!

Edited December 2, 2015 by Angel12d

[Morrigan2575]

Hawkman is kind of a dick, but I like Lady Hawk.

Wait, Michele Pfeiffer was in this episode?! LOL

[phoenics]

I'd like to respond to two things here:

 

1. Since you're aren't watching Arrow, for the record, yes, Felicity has been shown having problems running Palmer Tech this season. It just wasn't brought up in this episode.

 

2. I have a real problem with this entire complaint, largely because this complaint - that a character can't both run a major company and be a superhero - wasn't directed at Ray Palmer or Oliver Queen, both of whom were running the same company while doing superhero/Arrow/vigilante stuff, or Malcolm Merlyn, who ran a multibillion company while supervillaining, or, last year, Reverse-Flash/Harrison Wells, who was running the (admittedly smaller) Star Labs while running around supervillaining and murdering people. It also hasn't been directed against Bruce Wayne/Batman, Tony Stark/Iron Man. No one called Matt Murdoch a Mary Sue because he was both lawyering and vigilanting.

You know - that's a good point - that I didn't apply the same logic to the men and I should have.

It still doesn't change my view that Felicity is nothing but a Mary Sue (and fan service) - and the main reason I quit Arrow - but your criticism of what I wrote was fair.

What's hard is that I basically tried to put myself in Felicity's shoes (we have the same Computer Science background except I actually got a PhD) and I just cannot identify with her. She's fan service. And a Mary Sue. In previous seasons she never shouldered heavy emotional plots - they saddled KC with that and ended up hurting the Laurel character. So forgive me if I came off as harsh on Felicity when so far she's BENEFITTED from the sexism of the fandom already.

The only reason Felicity is so well loved is because she's light and fluffy and hardly ever shows anger (well for the first 2 seasons at least). She benefits from how they characterized Laurel. It's not a fair fight honestly. I won't give Felicity credit for being the "light and fluffy one" to Laurel's "darker angst". That's just BS.

And speaking of Laurel...

 

No, this complaint is getting aimed at two characters - Laurel, where fans are complaining not that her job as a prosecutor is against her role as a vigilante, but that it's "unrealistic" for her to do both, and now, Felicity.  Notice something about both of them?

Weird - for some reason with Laurel - because they actually showed her FAILING at being a vigilante for so long that I could buy that she was doing both. My problem with Felicity has ALWAYS been that she's been presented as a Mary Sue - perfect. Apparently in Season 4 they now (according to you) have her struggling - but she should have been struggling with any job (any real job) in Seasons 1-3 already.

But they instead made Laurel have to take that on - because of the sexism of the fandom (who wouldn't accept Laurel being "perfect" at something - while Felicity gets to be).

 

I'm not arguing that Felicity doing both is realistic. But I am saying that she's doing something that's standard in comic books and films based on these comic books, and signalling her (and, yes, to be fair, Laurel) for this strikes me as misogynistic.

Fair point on my not coming after the men who do similar things.

My critique actually came more from me looking at Felicity and trying to put myself in her shoes, since we have the same Computer Science background. Also because my job is super intense and I run multiple research labs domestic and international - I couldn't do what she does. That's where my head was. And honestly - don't know how any of the other heroes do it either. I also struggle with the fact that she literally had no training and it's just not that easy to hop into the Executive chair. Trust me. I think I tried too hard to relate it to real life when I know the statistics of Women in Computing and Women in Executive positions. A CEO vs Lawyer is not the same.

Edited December 2, 2015 by phoenics

[wingster55]

 

2. I have a real problem with this entire complaint, largely because this complaint - that a character can't both run a major company and be a superhero - wasn't directed at Ray Palmer or Oliver Queen, both of whom were running the same company while doing superhero/Arrow/vigilante stuff, or Malcolm Merlyn, who ran a multibillion company while supervillaining, or, last year, Reverse-Flash/Harrison Wells, who was running the (admittedly smaller) Star Labs while running around supervillaining and murdering people. It also hasn't been directed against Bruce Wayne/Batman, Tony Stark/Iron Man. No one called Matt Murdoch a Mary Sue because he was both lawyering and vigilanting.

 

No, this complaint is getting aimed at two characters - Laurel, where fans are complaining not that her job as a prosecutor is against her role as a vigilante, but that it's "unrealistic" for her to do both, and now, Felicity.  Notice something about both of them?

 

I'm not arguing that Felicity doing both is realistic. But I am saying that she's doing something that's standard in comic books and films based on these comic books, and signalling her (and, yes, to be fair, Laurel) for this strikes me as misogynistic.

I can't argue with the fact that it's inherently misogynistic that the two characters who get that are women.

But Oliver was shown to be awful at it his QC responsibilities, Ray's dedication to the Atom suit lead him to shutting himself away and not being involved with PT. 

 

Felicity has struggled with budget and firing people...but apparently she's "awesome" at her job. Laurel...I don't even know if she even has a job.

[Trini]

As for Iris, it's hard to work her into the main storyline with her being a reporter. They should have had her be a cop like her father or an attorney. It's too bad because I really like the actress but she just has nothing to do on the show.

 

I think she could have helped with finding the Staff or the museum they were looking for, or instead of Oliver BabyMamaDrama, she could have been meeting Barry and Oliver at Jitters.

 

But in general, there are lots of ideas to integrate Iris in various threads in this forum. (And being a reporter was never a problem for including Lois Lane in plots.) But she could still be part of the main plots as Barry's best friend. (Which she is -- supposedly.)

[phoenics]

(Which she is -- supposedly.)

Yeah - "supposedly".

Honestly I had to go back and re-watch S1A just to remind myself that Iris and Westallen (both friendship and more) actually existed. The good old bait and switch. How could I fool myself into thinking this time things would be different?

[statsgirl]

 

I can't argue with the fact that it's inherently misogynistic that the two characters who get that are women.

But Oliver was shown to be awful at it his QC responsibilities, Ray's dedication to the Atom suit lead him to shutting himself away and not being involved with PT.

 

But Oliver didn't get the same criticism of "how dare they write him as both a CEO and a vigilante".  And while Ray did shut himself away for weeks at a time leaving Felicity to run his company, he was never criticized for it.  With Ray, it was proof of his genius and his dedication.

The problem with IRIS is not that she is a journalist, it's that the writers do not know how to work they to their advantage. Yes, as a psychologist she might have an easier fit, but then she would be stepping on Caitlin's toes a lot. But as an investigative reporter, she has skills and talents. I'm not saying make her a tech genius in which she can hack stuff. But certainly, a lot of what Cisco does to bring information to Team Flash, Iris could do some of that.

 

Journalists need to find information and piece together puzzles that is how they get stories to report. Give Iris access to a super computer (that could be engineered by Cisco) and let her provide valuable resources & insight into the cases. She has a brain & an inquisitive mind, she offers a valuable insight if they wrote her into the main storyline. I think if they want to give her more important things to do, they could give her stuff to do. The writers seem content with keeping her adjacent to the main story, which is frustrating.

 

Caitlin is a doctor but her specialty is in the biomechanical engineering area.  She's good with the physical stuff but that doesn't mean she knows anything about human psychology.  A clinical psychologist would have been useful when all those metahumans were reacting to the changes in their bodies and she could have helped anticipate what they would do next to help the Team find them.  Maybe talked them down sometimes.  Maybe talk Jay helping more when they needed him.

 

Journalists do research but they do in-depth research and build larger schemes, not the kind of research that was needed here e.g. Felicity doing facial recognition of Vandal Savage or finding out where the sceptre of Horus was because that's much faster using a computer program, which Iris doesn't write, than going through pages on her own.

 

I'm willing to be convinced but I can't see anything in this episode that Iris could helped with that wouldn't have been shoe-horning her in because she's Iris (e.g. having her at Jitters only because they need to put her into the episode).

 

A problem with both Iris and Laurel is when the writers force them into the episodes for no reason, it weakens the episode.  In this episode, if it had been Iris giving Barry pep talks (just to give her something to do) instead of Oliver and Barry supporting each other, I think it would have made for a less effective episode.

 

And that's a problem, to me, re: Laurel.  Having Black Canary on a show that's centered around Green Arrow; the female counterpart to the male costumed hero and she's not the "leading lady".  But that, sadly, seems to be par for the course for the guys running these shows. 

You've said that you don't watch Arrow so I'll just leave it at saying that the producers have tried everything, from solo arcs to different versions (Sara's Canary) to InstaCanary, to the kitchen sink, and they cannot make Laurel work on Arrow.  The show is about The Green Arrow, and the Black Canary doesn't fit into it in a subordinate role.  (And added problem is the fact that Stephen Amelll and Katie  Cassidy do not work on screen together unless they're fighting with each other.)

Edited December 2, 2015 by statsgirl

[Advance35]

I loved all the Oliver/Barry stuff. They have great banter/chemistry. I always enjoy Barry/Felicity. They're cute and harmless.

 

 

I did crack up when Felicity hugged him then commented on his back and slapped him in the chest.  LOL And Barry's "So this is what it's like to date her."

 

I choose to believe Felicity has a close friendship with both Cisco and Caitlin off-screen.   As much as I love Barry and Oliver, I think throw in Diggle and you have a collection of my favorite characters in the Arrow/Flash verse.

[Morrigan2575]

I did crack up when Felicity hugged him then commented on his back and slapped him in the chest. LOL And Barry's "So this is what it's like to date her."

I choose to believe Felicity has a close friendship with both Cisco and Caitlin off-screen. As much as I love Barry and Oliver, I think throw in Diggle and you have a collection of my favorite characters in the Arrow/Flash verse.

.

Oliver's reply of more bruises than facing Deathstorke was very amusing

[miracole]

Iris doesn't have to be shoehorned into anything. She's Barry's best friend and Joe's daughter she should be around most of the time just because of those facts. Not to mention that most of the time they're looking for information and that is what she deals in she should be helping with that piece. It makes no sense that they put no effort into having her be an important part of the show. Actually they put a lot of effort into not having her be a part of the show.

[Tazmania]

 

That moment when Barry Allen is all of us. 

[Diapason Untuned]

 (And being a reporter was never a problem for including Lois Lane in plots.)

To be fair, Superman worked at the Daily Planet.

Barry spends most of his time either at STAR Labs or the police station.

[phoenics]

 

That moment when Barry Allen is all of us.

Okay this part did make me laugh outloud.

[foreverevolving]

Good episode.

some parts felt a bit off- the entire arc with Wells throw me off course every time it happened (i'm assuming this is gonna mean something next episode or next week?- it better or i'll be pissed about it cause it didn't feel like it belonged in this episode).

 

Didn't even realize Laurel was not in the episode until Thea mentioned it..

 

Not sure i'm impressed with Vandal.. i'll reserve judgment until LoT.

 

I'm in the minority but I have zero issues with the kid storyline, except that I wish it would be on Arrow rather than on Flash. but I love that Oliver figured it out right away.

 

Barry and his "so that thing you told me last year?...", and I don't think Barry was thinking of Patty of Iris or Caitlin, but he was just basking in the overall idea that Oliver was wrong.

 

Oh Thea fully accepting her moniker "Speedy" was fun and odd considering only a month and half ago she was "stop calling me that!"

 

some scenes with Oliver and Barry felt... off, I felt I was watching the actors.

 

Also!, some of the editing and the early fight scenes were just meh! (the editing was really not good, it kept cutting and the camera angles were at times in weird locations and made things look weird.

 

Good episode, but so far last year is still better.

 

Laurel hasn't been the de facto leading lady of Arrow for three seasons now and the writing has been having trouble putting her into the show almost as long.  They will probably say that Laurel was visiting her mother in Central City because Sara, from LoT, is there too.

They actually did, I think Thea was the one who brought it up.

And Arrow never had a leading lady, neither does the Flash, it's just the way these shows are build.. there is only one lead for these shows everyone else is supporting.

 

Plus...Oliver's kid finally appears. So nice to see Moira in the previously clip.

 

I too miss Moira.

 

You know - that's a good point - that I didn't apply the same logic to the men and I should have.

It still doesn't change my view that Felicity is nothing but a Mary Sue (and fan service) - and the main reason I quit Arrow - but your criticism of what I wrote was fair.


The only reason Felicity is so well loved is because she's light and fluffy and hardly ever shows anger (well for the first 2 seasons at least). She benefits from how they characterized Laurel. It's not a fair fight honestly. I won't give Felicity credit for being the "light and fluffy one" to Laurel's "darker angst". That's just BS.



Weird - for some reason with Laurel - because they actually showed her FAILING at being a vigilante for so long that I could buy that she was doing both. My problem with Felicity has ALWAYS been that she's been presented as a Mary Sue - perfect. Apparently in Season 4 they now (according to you) have her struggling - but she should have been struggling with any job (any real job) in Seasons 1-3 already.

But they instead made Laurel have to take that on - because of the sexism of the fandom (who wouldn't accept Laurel being "perfect" at something - while Felicity gets to be).
 

 

You keep using that combo of words, yet I don't think you understand what a real Mary-Sue is... 

BTW "fan service": Oliver idiotic sleeveless suit, Laurel being called Black Canary (just because she share the name with the comic book character), Oliver being called Ollie by Thea and Laurel, him being called the Green Arrow (which just doesn't work well on TV as it does for the comics) - all of these can be called "fan service" for the comic book fans (i'm sure others can muster more); Hack in some way even Sara's death and resurrection was a form of fan service (death for Laurel fans and resurrection for everyone else). EVERYTHING is fan service to a degree... Felicity on Arrow is not, the ep's as well as WB president Peter Roth have said time and time again that Felicity became regular first and foremost because the WB and CW executives took notice of her and EBR chemistry with Amell, and well- just about everyone!, long before a single episode of Arrow aired, and asked for more of her on the show.

 

Felicity is loved, not because she is fluffy but because she manage to do what Laurel has failed: Humanize Oliver for the audience.

 

Laurel failed at the vigilante thing because KC is terrible and acting fighting and it shows in the transitions (Also her costume is just terrible! just as much as Oliver's new one is). Laurel Lance is a very complex character and sadly for her KC does not have the acting range and physical ability that was needed to take on such a complex character and make her real to the audience.

Edited December 2, 2015 by foreverevolving

[wingster55]

But Oliver didn't get the same criticism of "how dare they write him as both a CEO and a vigilante".  And while Ray did shut himself away for weeks at a time leaving Felicity to run his company, he was never criticized for it.  With Ray, it was proof of his genius and his dedication.

 

It seems the criticism isn't that Felicity is doing both jobs...it's that she's doing both impeccably. 

With Oliver and Ray...it's untrue that it applies to them..Oliver failed spectacularly particularly. 

[kismet]

Caitlin is a doctor but her specialty is in the biomechanical engineering area.  She's good with the physical stuff but that doesn't mean she knows anything about human psychology.  A clinical psychologist would have been useful when all those metahumans were reacting to the changes in their bodies and she could have helped anticipate what they would do next to help the Team find them.  Maybe talked them down sometimes.  Maybe talk Jay helping more when they needed him.

 

Journalists do research but they do in-depth research and build larger schemes, not the kind of research that was needed here e.g. Felicity doing facial recognition of Vandal Savage or finding out where the sceptre of Horus was because that's much faster using a computer program, which Iris doesn't write, than going through pages on her own.

 

I'm willing to be convinced but I can't see anything in this episode that Iris could helped with that wouldn't have been shoe-horning her in because she's Iris (e.g. having her at Jitters only because they need to put her into the episode).

 

A problem with both Iris and Laurel is when the writers force them into the episodes for no reason, it weakens the episode.  In this episode, if it had been Iris giving Barry pep talks (just to give her something to do) instead of Oliver and Barry supporting each other, I think it would have made for a less effective episode.

That's a highly sophisticated delineation of roles for these writers. Generally, all the medical jargon is relegated to Caitlin, even if it is technically not her specialty. I'm still trying to figure out if she has a medical degree or a PhD.

 

I agree with you that as a Clinical or Forensic Psychologist she could have been easier to write into the FLASH as a whole. if they are trying to understand the metas, but I don't think that is their plan anymore for the show. And even then, talking about emotions doesn't make for interesting TV. Plus too much talking about emotions doesn't allow for the plotholes necessary to make some of the stories happen. But I also think having a journalist gives the show a little variety and allows for stories to expand. Lois & Clark being journalist never was a problem for them. Even the media angle on Supergirl provides a different perspective to work with. Even in this episode that role would not have been needed. So its not her professional role, its the writer's not finding a place for her.

 

I'm sorry, I get that FS is the bomb and I love her - but her researching where the spectre was coming from could have been delegated or at least shared by Iris since it was THE FLASH's hour. We are talking about immortals and ancient Egypt, I'm sure there is stuff that could be researched from a journalistic perspective.

 

And I don't think Iris grabbing a coffee with BA & OQ in the end would have been forced. He is on her list (so it would have been fun to see her reaction to him now that he is with FS) and she is BA's friend. It would have felt appropriate. Mentioning calling LL in the end or that she was in CC visiting her Mom, that was a forced line.

Edited December 2, 2015 by kismet

[phoenics]

To be fair, Superman worked at the Daily Planet.

Barry spends most of his time either at STAR Labs or the police station.

And in the comics somehow they had Iris and Barry working on cases together - she was always trying to get her story and rather than butt heads, they eventually worked together.

It's not that hard. The producers, writers, show runners, simply don't WANT to have Iris be front and center. They WANT her to be sidelined (even in stories that directly affect her). It wouldn't matter if she was a cop - they'd just have Patty be a blogger and get all of the screen time. It doesn't matter if she's a psychologist - they'd make Patty or Caitlin something to counteract that and get all of the screen time. It DOES. NOT. MATTER what profession Iris has - the writers simply DO NOT WANT to make her profession work, even though it should be EASY.

I posited the idea that this entire season, Iris could have been tracking a weird story that eventually led to Vandal Savage. It was an easy way for them to integrate her - but nope.

The point isn't what they make Iris do for a living. The point is that they just don't want her on this show. This screams either network interference or something super shady behind the scenes. There was a rumor that the CW didn't want the West family to be black. Now I believe the rumor.

I'm so angry I could spit. I'm so sick of this BS happening - this bait and switch.

[Lady Calypso]

Ok, so let's start off with the positives, because I honestly wasn't loving the episode and found it mediocre for me. The new interactions with The Flash vs Arrow crew. Thea, in particular, gets to find out so she gets to have interactions with Cisco and Barry, which I enjoyed a lot. Her banter toward Cisco was fun, at least. Seeing as Thea's probably closer in age to Cisco, it was nice. Or maybe it's because Cisco is so child-like that I think of him as a guy in his early twenties. Whatever; I just think Cisco and Thea's short banter has potential and I hope we hear Thea and Cisco talk about each other staying in contact. Plus, Thea needs more friends. This is actually one of the best things about the crossovers: we can see friendships form without having to actually see it all that often. We can believe Felicity has a friendship with Cisco and Caitlin, and we can see Oliver and Barry being close and helping each other out. 

 

It's kind of funny that, for an episode that took place in Star City for most of the episode and in the lair with the Team Arrow, and being in Central City for part of it, they still couldn't fit Laurel into it. I mean, they even found a way to fit Iris in for one scene (more on her later, though). 

 

I also really like Caitlin and Harry teaming up. It was nice to see Caitlin doing her science-y things, and how cool is it that we saw Eobard!Wells bond with Cisco, and now Earth 2!Wells is bonding with Caitlin. I'm glad they found a purpose for her while everyone else was in Star City. 

 

Seeing as I'm more of a fan of Arrow now that they've corrected many of their mistakes from their last season while The Flash is making so many more mistakes, I liked seeing a lot of the Team here. I liked seeing Olicity (gotta admit, more of them being a couple but I think that was to establish them with The Flash viewers), and I liked seeing Barry have a spot for his outfit in the lair. I also liked the Hawks to an extent. I thought they have potential to grow as characters and as a couple. Also, LOVED seeing only Thea, Diggle and Oliver out in the field fighting Darhk, thought they know that he's a dangerous guy so why get close to him?

 

Now, for the not-so-great or questionable moments. Ok, the mild issue of Malcolm appearing everywhere, but they did it in a comical way because of this show, so I can actually let it slide this time. It was funny how he always made a dramatic entrance. 

 

Also, the baby mama stuff. Can we not, especially on a show that has nothing to do with baby mama? Also, the Arrow viewers don't care either (and most have probably forgotten about it, seeing as that tidbit was a one episode thing). I don't see why we should care now, or why The Flash viewers should care about that ending. That being said, cute kid and cute way of introducing him through toy Flash. 

 

I'm just gonna address the Patty thing once: the fact that Harrison didn't notice a cop following him back to Star Labs, and seemingly that the security system still sucks, just makes no sense, other than to get him shot so Jay can conveniently use the test serum. Sloppy, sloppy writing. It happened a lot this episode. And why shouldn't she shoot the supposed dead Harrison Wells? She knows who he was, and Joe didn't tell her about Earth 2 Harrison, plus he had a weapon in his hand. And she was just supposed to stand there and let him potentially kill her? Really? Also, Jay keeps getting worse. It's like they lost purpose for Jay to be there, other than to flirt with Caitlin and say 'grrr' at Harrison. Just send him to Earth 2, for crying out loud.

 

Vandal Savage's appearance? It wasn't bad but the writing surrounding him and people talking about him was bad. Oliver mentioning mystical stuff? Barry saying there's something mystical about him after a two second meeting? Going to Oliver because of it? All too convenient. 

 

And now, Iris. Why did they shaft her? They could have used her! They could have had her go to Star City with Cisco and Barry. I know she would have been no help at Star Labs, so why not send her with Cisco and Barry to help protect Kendra? And I don't want to go to the excuse of her not having powers, or having to work. She is a journalist; she can take her work anywhere. Plus, I feel like it's less of her job and more of her continuously being shafted for no good reason. If they can insert Jay into a story, why not have Iris put in where she fits easily? Plus, Iris hasn't met a lot of the Arrow group yet. She's met Felicity and Oliver, yes, but has she met anyone else? Her job as a reporter could lead to a whole hell of a lot, but they choose not to use her. I would have loved to see Kendra and Iris actually interact. Imagine Iris and Thea interacting! Imagine Felicity getting to know Iris. Just...anything, show. Anything to show that Iris isn't the disappearing love interest and only has the purpose of being Barry's love interest. And she's not around now because she's not a love interest anymore. 

 

The only hope I have is her having her secret brother storyline. 

[Tazmania]

 

Best scene of the episode ... Barry and Felicity together are such a gift. I want Oliver and Felicity to keep Barry with them all the time. 

[Ruby25]

I'm at the point where I'm ready to believe conspiracy theories too. Do they want her on the show or not? And if not, why not? What's going on?

 

Why is the character who is THE most important character besides Barry in the Flash comics getting treated like this? I need an answer.

[blugirlami21]

I liked the episode. I love Oliver and Barry's friendship. I think it's that more than anything else that drives these crossovers.

I already knew that Iris would not be a part of the crossovers because I read spoilers but it doesn't make it any less disappointing. I'm sad that their friendship is nonexistent this season. If I started watching this season I would not know that they are best friends. There's way too much time spent on Patty, who is realistically not endgame. I really just dont understand why she's on the show. She continues to annoy in this episode. Either tell her whats going on or wait til next time when she actually kills someone.

I find Jay super annoying as well. All he does is complain, whine about how getting speed is a gift from God or whatever, not help out and disappear to somewhere. Where does he go?

I too feel sorry for Cisco. He really seemed to like Kendra. It's too bad she's destined to love someone else. Maybe he could rebound with Lisa Snart. I thought they had great chemistry.

Edited December 2, 2015 by blugirlami21

[phoenics]

You keep using that combo of words, yet I don't think you understand what a real Mary-Sue is... 

BTW "fan service": Oliver idiotic sleeveless suit, Laurel being called Black Canary (just because she share the name with the comic book character), Oliver being called Ollie by Thea and Laurel, him being called the Green Arrow (which just doesn't work well on TV as it does for the comics) - all of these can be called "fan service" for the comic book fans (i'm sure others can muster more); Hack in some way even Sara's death and resurrection was a form of fan service (death for Laurel fans and resurrection for everyone else). EVERYTHING is fan service to a degree... Felicity on Arrow is not, the ep's as well as WB president Peter Roth have said time and time again that Felicity became regular first and foremost because the WB and CW executives took notice of her and EBR chemistry with Amell, and well- just about everyone!, long before a single episode of Arrow aired, and asked for more of her on the show.

Actually I know exactly what fan service is. And I'm thinking them dressing Felicity in ridiculous, skin baring dresses - is fan service. The hot blonde who they put glasses on and she's also a super smart, never makes any mistakes hacker/know everything? The hot blonde who is "endearingly" awkward and makes all of these slips of the tongue that are always sexual?

That's not fan service? Yes it is.

Fan service can also exist textually - in terms of dialogue. Cisco is sometimes reduced to that - in a lot of his intertextual dialogue where he makes references to other media (his shirts count too). But his work. Felicity's work many times too - but it doesn't mean that for most of the her time on this show, she existed solely as a fan service foil to Laurel's actual human angst and REALITY.

But I also think that Felicity is another kind of fan service beyond just the sexual innuendos and skimpy clothing.

And yeah - she's a Mary Sue - Mary Sue's are presented as 1) fan service and 2) perfect. Meaning they never have any flaws. At all. And everything they do feels like a Deus Ex Machina. That's how I see Felicity. Last season in the first Flash ep with her? She hacked something in like 2 seconds. Not possible. It's just too much with her sometimes. Chloe on 24 wasn't even that good - except she WAS - and they actually let her have flaws and be a real human being.

I liked Felicity in S1 and part of S2. But the minute I realized the sexist way they were treating her character vs Laurel's is when I checked out. And I'm not even a Laurel fan (it appears you think I am?).

Edited December 2, 2015 by phoenics

[statsgirl]

Felicity stumbled badly in her first days as a CEO.  She's always been good at computers, except in season 2 when The Clockmaker got past her to blow up all the computers in the lair.  Three episodes ago she was failing badly at finding Ray and being bitchy towards Oliver. She's had too many personality flaws and failings to be a Mary Sue.

 

If Felicity's tight dresses are fan service, what is Sara's black leather bustier?  Or Oliver's bare arms (which will never strike me as not being stupid)?

Iris doesn't have to be shoehorned into anything. She's Barry's best friend and Joe's daughter she should be around most of the time just because of those facts. Not to mention that most of the time they're looking for information and that is what she deals in she should be helping with that piece.

I have a best friend. She has never shown up at my workplace, which is where Barry and Joe were this episode.  She has a job and I have a job and we get together on our off times.  Iris already shows up with coffee or to take Joe to lunch far more often than people in real life do.

 

Journalists deal in information but it's not the kind of information they were looking for.  It's either very shallow (news report of a crash, I used to work in the newsroom at a TV station) or in depth that requires researching over longer periods of time than this show demands.  Iris is either good for news releases if they want to put one out, or the kind of undercover thing she tried to do with Star Labs last season.

 

 

That's a highly sophisticated delineation of roles for these writers. Generally, all the medical jargon is relegated to Caitlin, even if it is technically not her specialty. I'm still trying to figure out if she has a medical degree or a PhD.

She's an MD. I think they said it in the early episodes. Ronnie was a PhD.

But you must be aware that in terms of job skills, except for amazing people like Rob Buckman, there is a world of difference between someone trained to treat the body and someone trained to treat the mind.

 

And now, Iris. Why did they shaft her? They could have used her! They could have had her go to Star City with Cisco and Barry. I know she would have been no help at Star Labs, so why not send her with Cisco and Barry to help protect Kendra? And I don't want to go to the excuse of her not having powers, or having to work. She is a journalist; she can take her work anywhere. Plus, I feel like it's less of her job and more of her continuously being shafted for no good reason. If they can insert Jay into a story, why not have Iris put in where she fits easily?

They needed Jay because of his super speed background.  The only story in Central City was Patty shooting Wells.  (Joe really needs to bring her in on Team Flash.  I guess he didn't learn with Iris last season.)

 

How could Iris have helped protect Kendra?  Do research on her background? And if she didn't find that Kendra had really had a childhood in Iowa? Ohio? what then?  At that point she would have been worse than dead weight, she would have been yet another person the superheros had to protect.

 

If they had got into the Vandal Savage story via Iris researching a story, I can see how she would have been useful. But they chose to get into it through Cisco's crush on Kendra instead, and short of having Iris show up when Oliver and Barry are getting coffee, I don't see how she would have done something that no other character could do just as well.. 

Edited December 2, 2015 by statsgirl

[blugirlami21]

I think the only female character I think is a Mary Sue is prob Patty. She's just obviously the perfect girl for Barry. And legitimately I think that's her sole purpose on the show. She's also smart and funny and she really hasn't had any real missteps before this ep.

I wouldn't say Felicity is perfect. She's a great hacker, a competent ceo, and she's pretty but she also can be snotty and bitchy and mean as we saw in a recent arrow episode. She has flaws like everyone else. Not exactly my definition of a Mary Sue but ymmv.

I hate the thought that to be included in the episode, Iris had to be useful in some way. Isn't she supposed to be part of the flash team? If they really wanted her to be there she would be. I think that's my biggest problem with her absence. Not just in this episode but all season long.

Edited December 2, 2015 by blugirlami21

[thuganomics85]

Aww, Cisco's time with Kendra is already at an end!  No way can he compete against a guy whose apparently been her "soulmate" for several life times.  At least he still has Lisa.  Actually, I was kind of digging the banter between him and Thea, but granted, that's just because I can only imagine Oliver's reaction if that happened.

 

Kind of fun, but it really is just a big setup for the Legends of Tomorrow spin-off, so it lacked the emotional bunch that the first crossover had last year.  Plus, I thought it was much more noticeable that some of the Arrow guys and their actors came off different here.  It's like this show goes a bit too broad at times or something.  But I felt like Felicity was way overboard compared to the norm, and Damien was almost a different person in his cameo.  Didn't seem to have any of the menace he shows on Arrow; felt almost like Saturday Morning Cartoon villain here.

 

All I'm going to say about the Iris thing is that I can't believe she had less to do then Patty.  One is the female lead, whose character is connected to both Barry and Joe, and the other is recurring and just dating Barry.  At least Iris wouldn't have shot my beloved Harry.  Do the writers have any plan for Iris?  Or have they just given up?  It's just weird.

 

Vandal Savage didn't really grab me, but he's better then Ra's Al Ghul, so he always has that going for him.

 

I see that Jay apparently spent his off-screen time, getting a haircut.

 

Oliver and Barry continue to crack me up.  They really are just the annoyed, older brother and younger, more energetic brother.  All the interactions between the teams were pretty fun, but my favorite was Barry addressing Malcolm's "entrances."

[phoenics]

If they had got into the Vandal Savage story via Iris researching a story, I can see how she would have been useful. But they chose to get into it through Cisco's crush on Kendra instead.

THIS! This would have made the entire storyline that much stronger. Going through Cisco could still have happened, but having Iris investigating these weird things (that could have been what she was doing when she jumped out the window and Barry caught her) that eventually led to Kendra/Carter and Savage would have been a great twist at writing - especially if they had used it as a way to show Iris throwing herself into work so she didn't have to deal with Eddie's death.

See? Integrated. And that took literally no effort at all to come up with.

It's like the writers forgot how to write a continuous story because "crossovers". Last season they still sucked at writing for Iris in the back half of the season, but they did know how to weave a long continuous story with mystery to it and an overall arc. This season, the show is a fragmented mess that's lost its heart (Iris).

[Ruby25]

 

All I'm going to say about the Iris thing is that I can't believe she had less to do then Patty.  One is the female lead, whose character is connected to both Barry and Joe, and the other is recurring and just dating Barry.  At least Iris wouldn't have shot my beloved Harry.  Do the writers have any plan for Iris?  Or have they just given up?  It's just weird.

Yup. It's fucking WEIRD. I want to know what's going on behind the scenes now, because why the hell would a useless character like Patty suddenly be written in and given more screentime than Iris? This whole thing has been truly fucked up this season.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Ruby25

[phoenics]

I think the only female character I think is a Mary Sue is prob Patty. She's just obviously the perfect girl for Barry. And legitimately I think that's her sole purpose on the show. She's also smart and funny and she really hasn't had any real missteps before this ep.

I wouldn't say Felicity is perfect. She's a great hacker, a competent ceo, and she's pretty but she also can be snotty and bitchy and mean as we saw in a recent arrow episode. She has flaws like everyone else. Not exactly my definition of a Mary Sue but ymmv.

Agreed about Patty - but I think Felicity started off similarly - it's just she had slightly better dialogue and she had the angsty Laurel to be compared to. Iris isn't angsty and she's pretty much a cinnamon roll so it's not the same. And CP is a better actress than KC (sorry).

And as for Felicity, they took 2 years to ever have her be angry... and they gave us a PoV for her. Actually much of her fan service dialogue hinted at her PoV and feelings for Oliver. But she was still all fluffiness and light... contrast that with Laurel dealing with real issues and of course the fandom would go for the light and fluffy one even if there was nothing there for 2 full years. I watched 3 seasons of Arrow and haven't touched my DVR all season this season. Because I just got bored with it.

I hate the thought that to be included in the episode, Iris had to be useful in some way. Isn't she supposed to be part of the flash team? If they really wanted her to be there she would be. I think that's my biggest problem with her absence. Not just in this episode but all season long.

On this we are in 1000% agreement. If they WANTED Iris to be there, she would be. That's a huge tragedy and if they don't course correct soon, this show is going to start getting a lot of bad press. Even the media is starting to notice a glaring Iris marginalization. And last year, many hated her. Some are still hating - but many outlets (tvline) that hated on CP and Iris are now seeing the light - the dark light - coming from The CW and Flash people.

Hopefully they will start calling the producers out for it. It's blatant and disrespectful at this point. Don't brag about diversity and reduce your top billed female actress (i.e. lead actress) to a token.

[Primal Slayer]

Can they hurry up and give Felicity a code-name? Oliver calling her Felicity/honey while out in the field with DD around didn't seem smart.

But it was an ok episode, not as epic as it should've been for part of a crossover though. I didn't mind the subplot that Wells had but I feel like when it comes to crossovers, stick to everything cross-overy. Laurel is in Central City which I assume means she is with Sara(?) and hanging with momsy but none of that will be shown.

I did like Arrow characters being lighter, shame Laurel couldn't be part of it. Weird that Thea is gung-ho now on Speedy. The whole scene with all of them just being casual and having drinks was great, I need that more often.

They went out of their way to find a reason to include Malcolm and Patty, even though it would've been REALLY easy to have Iris investigate Savage, she is a reporter, they investigate stuff!

[Lady Calypso]

They needed Jay because of his super speed background.  The only story in Central City was Patty shooting Wells.  (Joe really needs to bring her in on Team Flash.  I guess he didn't learn with Iris last season.)

 

How could Iris have helped protect Kendra?  Do research on her background? And if she didn't find that Kendra had really had a childhood in Iowa? Ohio? what then?  At that point she would have been worse than dead weight, she would have been yet another person the superheros had to protect.

 

If they had got into the Vandal Savage story via Iris researching a story, I can see how she would have been useful. But they chose to get into it through Cisco's crush on Kendra instead, and short of having Iris show up when Oliver and Barry are getting coffee, I don't see how she would have done something that no other character could do just as well.. 

 

Ok, true. I gotta admit, I didn't want Harry and Caitlin to find the serum/make the serum so quickly and I wanted them to finish making it at the end of the episode, because how interesting would it have been to have Caitlin and Harry's subplot been them having character moments instead of plot moments? I know Danielle Panabaker isn't the strongest actress, but having her and Harry just talking would have been...nice. No love interests, no 'OMG' moment, no (very mild) OOC (out of character? maybe?) moment with Jay going from mad at Harry to saving his life in a heartbeat with no hesitation. Ok, maybe that last part is how I feel. Maybe it was just more sloppy writing. Either way, I know two characters talking for five minutes in an episode isn't interesting to some, but it would have been to me.

 

As for Iris, I think they did need to go that route with her discovering information about Vandal Savage. Also...it's weird, but I just pictured a random moment with Malcolm and Iris out-information'ing one another. Obviously Malcolm would win because of the League, but imagine Iris trying to one-up him on research. But yeah, I know she couldn't have actually gone to Central City, but I hope she's more useful in the Arrow portion of the crossover, and I just wanted them to find a way to have her incorporated into the crossover. 

[AyChihuahua]

She's fan service. And a Mary Sue. In previous seasons she never shouldered heavy emotional plots - they saddled KC with that and ended up hurting the Laurel character. So forgive me if I came off as harsh on Felicity when so far she's BENEFITTED from the sexism of the fandom already.

Using the term Mary Sue is actually itself pretty sexist.  And all Felicity did in S3 was shoulder emotional plots, and people complained she cried too much.  So basically, she can't win.  

And as for Felicity, they took 2 years to ever have her be angry...

WHAT?  Literally her first day on the job with Oliver she told him she wasn't going to help him kill a dude, stood up to him (literally) and stormed off.  HER FIRST DAY ON THE JOB.  And oh, there was that time she yelled at him to get his head out of his ass.  And that other time she yelled at him to get his head out of his ass.  And that time she told him she didn't want him to love her.  

 

Not liking her is fine.  Whatever, who cares.  But making stuff up to support that dislike is unnecessary.  Felicity, just two episodes ago on Arrow, snatched Oliver bald for doing nothing but trying to support her.  When her mom showed up in S3 she was completely unwelcoming to her.  And seriously, on a show with 4000-year-old people and flying people and a guy who runs faster than the speed of sound and portals to other universes and a supergenius telepathic gorilla, you call her a Mary Sue because she can hack stuff unrealistically quickly?  Should we sit and watch a realistic version, in which hacking inside the CIA is  impossible?  Watch her sit at a computer for months trying to hack into a single DMV?  No, this is a sci-fi/fantasy show.  Oliver survived being stabbed all through his gut and thrown off a huge cliff by drinking penicillin tea.  Sara moldered in a grave for a year before being brought back to life by magical hot tub.  But unrealistically fast hacking is the hill you choose to die on?

 

By the way, every single woman on both shows wears sexy outfits.  Iris is in short skirts and tight pants.  Thea is usually baring her belly and wearing skin-tight leather and short skirts.  Sara fights in a bustier.  Laurel wears skin-tight leather and tight jeans.  That's not a Felicity thing; that's a TV thing.  And it's really a CW thing.  But when Felicity wears tight dresses it makes her fan service and/or a Mary Sue?  But none of the other women?  For goodness' sake, do you really think the Green Arrow is well-served by fighting in tight leather?  All his shirtless workout scenes?  That's just TV, and it's particularly the CW.

Edited December 2, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[venusnv80]

phoenics, I want to give you a standing ovation on your post above. It doesn't matter WHAT Iris' job was, they would have shoehorned into the background. There is absolutely no freaking reason in the world that they could not have her researching or looking through old newspaper articles and coming across Vandal Savage or even Kendra and Carter. This is unacceptable. This is a superhero, supernatural show...they can write for telepathic gorillas, men who can run faster than sound, a shark man, etc., but they can't find a way to write an investigative reporter in the mix? Even when there is a clear blueprint on how to do it? I find that hard to believe. Seriously. 

[Lady Calypso]

And, I am as much of a Laurel fan as a lot of people are (as in, pretty much I do not like her at all), but it was weird to not have Laurel involved, at the very least in the lair scenes. Her being there would have actually made some sense, even if she wasn't part of the Felicity and Oliver home scenes.

[Trini]

 

 ... Barry and Felicity together are such a gift. ...

 

Oh, they are totally a couple on Earth-3 ... in my head.

 

It would have been nice to see Iris and Felicity catch up. Last time they were together (onscreen) Iris' boyfriend was Eddie and she didn't know Barry's secret, and Felicity was dating Ray, and is now dating the guy she has a crush on....

[phoenics]

Using the term Mary Sue is actually itself pretty sexist.  And all Felicity did in S3 was shoulder emotional plots, and people complained she cried too much.  So basically, she can't win.

Except she does win - she has all of the damn screen time. Even on The Flash.

And for the men, there is Harry Stu. It's the male version of Mary Sue. So, not sexist. Having a female character who actually does NOTHING wrong as if that's the only way to write women and women don't get angry is what's sexist.

But carry on.

[Skyline]

Looks like that tea spilled on Lipstick Alley was true.

Poor CP

[Ruby25]

By the way, I don't like how Barry just calls Oliver "Ollie" now. Why does he get to be the person besides Thea and Laurel to call him that? I thought was reserved for childhood friends and family. A small nitpick, but I didn't like that.

[apinknightmare]

And yeah - she's a Mary Sue - Mary Sue's are presented as 1) fan service and 2) perfect. Meaning they never have any flaws. At all. And everything they do feels like a Deus Ex Machina. That's how I see Felicity. Last season in the first Flash ep with her? She hacked something in like 2 seconds. Not possible. It's just too much with her sometimes. Chloe on 24 wasn't even that good - except she WAS - and they actually let her have flaws and be a real human being.

 

I don't think the unrealistic hacking jobs are anything other then them not wanting to waste time showing things they don't need to waste time showing. Who cares if it takes her two seconds or two minutes? I'd rather watch something else in the time I'd have to wait for her to realistically get into a system or do whatever, but that's just me. 

 

She has a very big, very real flaw that's been showcased quite a few times over the past two seasons: when she's stressed or angry, she's nasty as hell. She's said some legit mean things to Oliver (and maybe some other people, I can't remember) numerous times. 

Edited December 2, 2015 by apinknightmare