Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[statsgirl]

That's always been the thing about Felicity though --the mild-mannered exterior hides some surprising secrets.  As she said, she's been a badass all her life.

 

A crappy parent is also a horrible thing, but at least it wouldn't be the child being abandoned by his father & his father's family which is essentially what this amounts to.

I've seen some fathers bad enough where the kid would have been better off not knowing him, or at least not having the father responsible for anything.  Cases where the mother is constantly trying to keep the kid from being hurt, either physically or emotionally, by the father.

 

@Statsgirl, do you think having Oliver know about the baby at the time would have been harmful for the baby or Oliver himself?

I think Moira thought it would be harmful to Oliver, he was crying that his life was ruined, and so she made the problem go away for him.  If she had been a better parent and made Oliver stand up to his responsibilities, it could have helped him mature. But that's not how Moira worked.

 

The potential for the kid to be hurt was much higher and I completely understand why Baby Mama took the deal.  I just hope that she told the kid that his father wasn't ready to be a father rather than that he was dead.  Although technically, when the boy was of an age to start asking about his father, Oliver was "dead".

[AyChihuahua]

Cases where the mother is constantly trying to keep the kid from being hurt, either physically or emotionally, by the father.

Even Ollie never would have physically hurt his kid.  And re emotional damage, he would have continued, most likely, being an irresponsible immature douchebag.  Just like millions of other parents who are allowed to raise their kids.  And a lot like Baby Mama, who was likely cheating with, but at least sleeping with, said irresponsible immature douchebag (sans birth control).  I don't see how she was so much better than Oliver at that time.  They were dumb kids, not evil kids.  But only one of them got the chance to raise or even know of the existence of THEIR kid.

[statsgirl]

We know little about her from the flashback other than she wasn't sleeping around like Oliver was and she was in school, unlike Oliver.

 

In contrast to the mother, I didn't get them impression that Oliver wanted to raise this child until he got the news that there was no child any more.  Before that, he just wanted the problem to go away.

We'll have to disagree on how much emotional damage douche-bag substance-using Ollie could have caused.

[AyChihuahua]

How in the world do we know she wasn't sleeping around like Ollie was?  And even if she was in school, which I don't remember, Ollie was in school, too.  FOUR TIMES.  Nothing in-show indicates she was any better than him, but she took away his choice to be in the kid's life, while making her choice to have the kid and raise him.    

 

And yes, he could have done emotional damage.  He also could have not done emotional damage.  He was never, unlike literal actual millions of other douchebaggy people, give the opportunity to make that choice.  

Edited December 2, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, he's been shown to be selfish, but never abusive. As far as we know right now the kid thinks he doesn't have a father. If Oliver really didn't have a change of heart eventually, then the kid would still think he didn't have a father. The only difference is that not being involved would've been Oliver's choice. 

[tennisgurl]

...why? Why oh why did they need to add this pointless kid angst to Olicity? It kills the development Oliver has made, both as a person, and in his relationship with Felicity, creates a pointless plot point to get dragged out at a later date, and is basically a big soap opera style cliche. Why why WHY?  

[wingster55]

And a lot like Baby Mama, who was likely cheating with, but at least sleeping with, said irresponsible immature douchebag (sans birth control).  I don't see how she was so much better than Oliver at that time. 

How exactly did you arrive at that conclusion that she was cheating on someone? 

[catrox14]

Godsdammit. Okay is the show actively trying to make us HATE Oliver? I mean I seriously do not fucking understand why they would do this. I just ....I should probably be in the bitterness thread now.,

[lemotomato]

So we got 8 episodes of good, mature, happy Olicity (I'm including The Flash episode) before they fucked everything up. I have to be honest, considering the show is the show, that's 7 more episodes than I expected.

[statsgirl]

Well, they just ruined everything potentially good about that storyline. Including Samantha as a person to respect.

 

 

How in the world do we know she wasn't sleeping around like Ollie was? 

Moira accepted without question that the baby was Oliver's. If she had been sleeping around, Moira's detective would have jumped on it.

That she was steady in college (i.e. not getting kicked out repeatedly as Ollie was) was an impression I got from the scene. I'll have to go back and check, when my rage at tonight's ending has died down.

[AyChihuahua]

Well, they just ruined everything potentially good about that storyline. Including Samantha as a person to respect.

 

 

Moira accepted without question that the baby was Oliver's. If she had been sleeping around, Moira's detective would have jumped on it.

That she was steady in college (i.e. not getting kicked out repeatedly as Ollie was) was an impression I got from the scene. I'll have to go back and check, when my rage at tonight's ending has died down.

I don't accept that we have any reason to know she wasn't hooking up with more than idiot Ollie.  She could easily have slept with a different guy a week or two from Ollie and no one know about it.

 

For me, though, don't bother going to look at the episode.  She's scum, he's scum, I don't care anymore.  He can bang her or get back together with Laurel for all I care.  

[Password]

Aww no. The flashback in season 2 had Ollie (yes Ollie) say she was "a good person". Now I'm not sure what a good person is but according to Ollie she was.

The entire episode I wanted to politely ask Samantha to take a seat. I was fine with her reasoning for keeping Oliver in the dark back then, but HAVING TO LIE to the woman is his life in order to see his child just makes absolutely no sense. She essentially asked him to cause problems in his own life because...reasons.

Stupid.

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

What I find hard to fathom is how could you believably build back the trust that's been lost between Oliver and Felicity. How can she ever get to a point where she can fully trust he won't lie to her about big life-changing things any time he has a "good reason". Emotional betrayals take a long time to work through and this basically rips apart the whole foundation of the relationship they've established. They would, one would think, have to start completely from scratch.

[Angel12d]

Aww no. The flashback in season 2 had Ollie (yes Ollie) say she was "a good person". Now I'm not sure what a good person is but according to Ollie she was.

The entire episode I wanted to politely ask Samantha to take a seat. I was fine with her reasoning for keeping Oliver in the dark back then, but HAVING TO LIE to the woman is his life in order to see his child just makes absolutely no sense. She essentially asked him to cause problems in his own life because...reasons.

Stupid.

 

Clearly Samantha learned how to be a manipulative b**** from her one interaction with Moira Queen. She just has none of the class that Moira had.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Angel12d

[quarks]

Regarding the speculation that Samantha will eventually become a love interest - well, it's Arrow, so who knows, but right now I'm inclined to say no.

 

Mostly because, even if Oliver once described her as a good person, this episode established her as one of the most toxic women in Oliver's life, which given Arrow, is really saying something.  After all:

 

1. She slept with Oliver when he had a girlfriend. She may or may not have known about Laurel, but it's not a plus in her favor. (Plus, that Oliver was a horrible person so I question her judgement.)

 

2. She lied to Oliver about having a miscarriage.

 

3. She then lied - by omission - for the three years after he returned from the island, and then directly lied to his face, telling him that she'd met someone else. (Stupid lie, Samantha; apart from the DNA evidence, he could hire private investigators.)

 

4. She then emotionally blackmailed Oliver, told him not to discuss a fairly momentous change in his life with any of his friends, and created a wedge between him and his girlfriend.

 

5. That wedge was bad enough that it screws with Oliver's head, directly leading to the deaths of thousands of people (and possibly that poor donkey), and another dangerous change to the timeline which, if Barry is correct, will lead to more deaths.

 

Like, THANKS SAMANTHA.

 

Meanwhile, Arrow just went out of its way to point out that Oliver needs Felicity to be the Green Arrow; without her, he screws up. With Samantha, he screws up. 

 

So I'm not worried that she's being set up for anything more than Occasional Guest Star Wishing Defiance Had Been Renewed After All.

[Morrigan2575]

Replying in spoiler/speculation thread

[Password]

Time and again the writers point out that when things aren't right between Oliver and Felicity, Oliver does stupid things. He shuts people out. Tries to "protect" them.

[tv echo]

Samantha's request was selfish and shortsighted - she was willing to let her son grow up without knowing the identity of his father or thinking that his father didn't care.  She was willing to destroy Oliver's relationship with his girlfriend.  Oliver should've just refused her request and taken her to court to get legal visitation rights.

Edited December 3, 2015 by tv echo

[Advance35]

Samantha's request was selfish and shortsighted - she was willing to let her son grow up without knowing the identity of his father or thinking that his father didn't care.  She was willing to destroy Oliver's relationship with his girlfriend.  Oliver should've just refused her request and taken her to court to get legal visitation rights.

 

If Oliver upsets that boys mother, he will never have a positive relationship with him.   Samantha feeling harrassed and upset because of legal matters would not go over well with the Son who has spent 9 years with his mother alone, harrassment and anxiety initiated by his newly arrived, seeking a relationship Father.   Bad President.

 

I said it in another thread cause I believe it's true, Felicity takes a back seat to his Son and (for now) his Son's mother.  Maybe once Oliver establishes his own relationship with the kid, he won't have to automatically acquiece to Samantha's outlook and course of action.....but for now.   I can see why he chose the way he did.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Advance35

[apinknightmare]

Samantha's request was selfish and shortsighted - she was willing to let her son grow up without knowing the identity of his father or thinking that his father didn't care. 

 

She is still doing that. She told Oliver that William could never know Oliver was his father. So, Oliver's basically doing all of this so that he can check in from time-to-time under the guise of being his mother's friend. 

Edited December 3, 2015 by apinknightmare

[tv echo]

Samantha is a POS - not a good person at all.

[tarotx]

I get why Oliver chose the kid but he didn't have to choose just him nor was this for the kid imo. Oliver was in wo this is overwhelming mode and then Felicity found out and reacted dramatically because Oliver has a history of keeping info private. Barry ereased time but decided to tell Oliver what happened filtered through Barry's limited info and Oliver reacted in hyper Oliver mode. He doesn't want to lose Felicity so he doesn't tell her. It reminds me of BTVS Willow's tabula rasa spell to have Tara forget their fight.

Ugh Barry needs to keep time travel events private except to cisco. Oliver didn't need to know Felicity broke up with him (though she really didn't). Oliver just needed a friend to talk him into being honest with Felicity without the erased info.

[hogwash]

Samantha's request was selfish and shortsighted - she was willing to let her son grow up without knowing the identity of his father or thinking that his father didn't care.  She was willing to destroy Oliver's relationship with his girlfriend.  Oliver should've just refused her request and taken her to court to get legal visitation rights.

 

 

There's no way he can do that without putting them in danger. And not in the boring "I must protect them" way that Oliver usually pulls. If a secret kid and his mom pops out of nowhere and Darhk doesn't immediately go after them, he's the dumbest supervillian in the Flarrowverse.

[nksarmi]

If Oliver upsets that boys mother, he will never have a positive relationship with him.   Samantha feeling harrassed and upset because of legal matters would not go over well with the Son who has spent 9 years with his mother alone, harrassment and anxiety initiated by his newly arrived, seeking a relationship Father.   Bad President.

 

I said it in another thread cause I believe it's true, Felicity takes a back seat to his Son and (for now) his Son's mother.  Maybe once Oliver establishes his own relationship with the kid, he won't have to automatically acquiece to Samantha's outlook and course of action.....but for now.   I can see why he chose the way he did.

 

If

[nksarmi]

If Oliver upsets that boys mother, he will never have a positive relationship with him.   Samantha feeling harrassed and upset because of legal matters would not go over well with the Son who has spent 9 years with his mother alone, harrassment and anxiety initiated by his newly arrived, seeking a relationship Father.   Bad President.

 

I said it in another thread cause I believe it's true, Felicity takes a back seat to his Son and (for now) his Son's mother.  Maybe once Oliver establishes his own relationship with the kid, he won't have to automatically acquiece to Samantha's outlook and course of action.....but for now.   I can see why he chose the way he did.

 

If

[nksarmi]

If Oliver upsets that boys mother, he will never have a positive relationship with him.   Samantha feeling harrassed and upset because of legal matters would not go over well with the Son who has spent 9 years with his mother alone, harrassment and anxiety initiated by his newly arrived, seeking a relationship Father.   Bad President.

 

I said it in another thread cause I believe it's true, Felicity takes a back seat to his Son and (for now) his Son's mother.  Maybe once Oliver establishes his own relationship with the kid, he won't have to automatically acquiece to Samantha's outlook and course of action.....but for now.   I can see why he chose the way he did.

 

If Oliver is serious about wanting a relationship with his son - then legal action is absolutely his best course of action.  People usually cannot work these things about between themselves - emotions and power plays - almost always come into it.  And until Oliver establishes himself as William's biological father - he has no rights whatsoever. 

 

On the other hand, IF Oliver didn't have to worry about dangerous people like Darkh hurting said child, he could go to the courts, explain that he just learned about the boy and wanted legal limited visitation (he's not challenging her custody or anything, just court-dictated dates when he can see the boy).  This makes everything formal and removes emotions from it.

 

The problem that the show just completely ignored is that Oliver has good reason NOT to be the boy's public father.  As long as he is a vigilante, he is a danger to the boy AND he can't necessarily keep commitments.  It's far better at this point in his life that Oliver actually just be a friend and show up now and then and take the boy to a game or something - be an "uncle" type character who can help the boy if he ever needs it but won't be setup to disappoint him either.

 

So while Samantha is being selfish and Oliver is being stupid about not telling Felicity - IF they had extended that little Barry and Oliver talk and had Oliver fully recognize that he couldn't be the boy's "pubic" dad and he didn't want to tell Felicity because her issues with her own dad might make it impossible for her to understand - then we could at least understand Oliver's lie.  Right now, it just looks like he is going along with what biomom demands.

 

I have to say that I really hope it's not biomom in that grave.....

[Chaser]

After sleeping on it, Olicity isn't ruined for me yet. It depends on what happens next. I need to see him struggle with this choice. I need to see his guilt and shame and I need it to affect how he treats her. I need Felicity to have a voice in this and make it clear why she is stepping away from this relationship when everything comes out. I really really need it not to be ugly or cruel. Sadly, I don't trust them to not to completely screw it up. Wait and see I guess. Or just not see, because I'm spot watching the rest of this season.

 

I realized last night that I have higher standards for Olicity than I do for pretty much any other ship I have ever shipped. Which is weird and not smart with these show runners. But I've shipped ones that had a cheating storyline and a surprise kid storyline and a secret/lies storyline, but I don't think I have ever been as ragey. And I actually understand Oliver and Felicity to a point in the last episode. Oh the disappointment. 

[Pyramid]

I don't care about the mother's motives or Oliver's reaction or Felicity's because this whole storyline is so manifestly an attempt by the writers to screw with the audience that I'm in disbelief that any writer over the age of twelve would think this shit up.

[AyChihuahua]

Aww no. The flashback in season 2 had Ollie (yes Ollie) say she was "a good person". Now I'm not sure what a good person is but according to Ollie she was.

I mean, Ollie did not exactly have the best judgment.  If she brought him a sandwich after banging his brains out he'd call her a good person.

What I find hard to fathom is how could you believably build back the trust that's been lost between Oliver and Felicity. How can she ever get to a point where she can fully trust he won't lie to her about big life-changing things any time he has a "good reason". Emotional betrayals take a long time to work through and this basically rips apart the whole foundation of the relationship they've established. They would, one would think, have to start completely from scratch.

It's going to go on for weeks, while he visits the kid.  He's going to lie to her over and over again, in their home, while he looks her in the eye.  

And proposing while lying is unbelievably manipulative.

 

For me, that +

the proposal

kills Olicity.  I don't want them together anymore.  I actually want EBR off the show (Felicity is my fave character, and both she and EBR deserve better than this bullshit...EBR will be fine).

Time and again the writers point out that when things aren't right between Oliver and Felicity, Oliver does stupid things. He shuts people out. Tries to "protect" them.

He made them not right.  He is the cause of the problem.  They were just fine before he lied to her about something HUGE.  Unnecessarily, bc anyone with two brain cells would just tell Felicity, who's AWESOME at keeping Oliver's secrets.

 

Like, THANKS SAMANTHA.

Samantha's awful, but that's never stopped Oliver/Ollie before (I may start calling him Ollie now...he is acting like Ollie again).  I can totally see her becoming a love interest.  Because Felicity's going to dump him hard and push him away, meanwhile he'll be spending time with baby and baby mama.  Her awfulness wouldn't stop these idiot writers.  If they can come up with the money to hire her for the episodes, I wouldn't be at all surprised.  

 

I'm SO THANKFUL Ray is not around.  At least Felicity won't date him again.  I'd legit rather see her date Malcolm Merlyn than the Cane Toad.

Edited December 3, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[apinknightmare]

He made them not right.  He is the cause of the problem.  They were just fine before he lied to her about something HUGE.  Unnecessarily, bc anyone with two brain cells would just tell Felicity, who's AWESOME at keeping Oliver's secrets.

 

He is a dumbass, but I think he might've been shaken by Barry telling him that he and Felicity broke up over Oliver the reveal about the kid in the original timeline, so he's trying to keep that from happening. Still a dumbass, still makes terrible decisions, still never learns. Still stupid writing. But that's probably why.

Edited December 3, 2015 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

After sleeping on it, Olicity isn't ruined for me yet. It depends on what happens next. I need to see him struggle with this choice. I need to see his guilt and shame and I need it to affect how he treats her. I need Felicity to have a voice in this and make it clear why she is stepping away from this relationship when everything comes out. I really really need it not to be ugly or cruel. Sadly, I don't trust them to not to completely screw it up. Wait and see I guess. Or just not see, because I'm spot watching the rest of this season.

He's definitely going to feel bad, and make kicked puppy face, all while he lies to her face in their home about this HUGE thing.  I am out for awhile, but I'm definitely looking forward to her dumping him.  I'm going to point and cackle while he cries.  

He is a dumbass, but I think he might've been shaken by Barry telling him that he and Felicity broke up over Oliver the reveal about the kid in the original timeline, so he's trying to keep that from happening. Still a dumbass, still makes terrible decisions, still never learns. Still stupid writing. But that's probably why.

Yes, I totally agree.  He lied and will continue to lie because he doesn't want to lose her.  He'll pile lies on top of lies while he visits his kid bc he's not going to want to admit to the original lie and so he won't see a way out.  I totally get it.  I just don't give a shit.  He lied to and manipulated her last season, and he lied to her and used her against Slade.  I would actually have given him a pass on the first run-through, and I think Felicity would have too, if he'd told her within a couple days.  I've said before that I'm fine with people processing (I was NOT okay with him flat-out lying to her when she confronted him).  But he's going to lie and lie and lie more for weeks/months.  Plus probably

propose

while lying, which is crazily manipulative.  And I am just NOT OKAY with his excuses anymore.  This was supposed to be a new start, post 1-3 trilogy, and he was supposed to have stopped this crap. 

[apinknightmare]

Yes, I totally agree.  He lied and will continue to lie because he doesn't want to lose her.  He'll pile lies on top of lies while he visits his kid bc he's not going to want to admit to the original lie and so he won't see a way out.  

 

Here's where I'm kind of lost by what the arrangement is - seemed to me that Samantha told him he wasn't going to be William's father, that William wasn't going to ever know he was his father, and Oliver asked if it would be okay for him to stop by once in a while. So it didn't seem like he was going to try to build a fatherly rapport with the kid and start on some kind of visitation schedule, just that he'd drop in once in a while as "mommy's friend." So is he going to be actively deceiving her while lying about visits and whatnot, or is he just not telling her that he fathered a kid that he isn't going to actually parent? Neither one is great, but one is way worse IMO. 

[AyChihuahua]

Here's where I'm kind of lost by what the arrangement is - seemed to me that Samantha told him he wasn't going to be William's father, that William wasn't going to ever know he was his father, and Oliver asked if it would be okay for him to stop by once in a while. So it didn't seem like he was going to try to build a fatherly rapport with the kid and start on some kind of visitation schedule, just that he'd drop in once in a while as "mommy's friend." So is he going to be actively deceiving her while lying about visits and whatnot, or is he just not telling her that he fathered a kid that he isn't going to actually parent? Neither one is great, but one is way worse IMO. 

He's basically going to be Uncle Ollie, I guess.  And yeah, I think he's going to visit the kid (Baby Mama, I ain't calling her by her name bc she doesn't deserve that respect), is in more episodes.  All while he lies to Felicity, over and over.  I mean, he can't tell her he's visiting some random kid, so he's going to lie completely, about where he is AND what he's doing there.  And I personally am sure he's not even going to be the one to tell her.  She'll either find out on her own or someone else will tell her. After weeks, probably months, of constantly lying to her face in their home.  It's HORRIBLE.

[looptab]

I'm going to bring over something I posted in the episode thread, because these things are still a bit unclear to me:

 Was Oliver going to tell her until talking with Barry made him change his mind, or he had already decided he wasn't going to tell her and talking with Barry confirmed his decision?

what do you think?

[quarks]

Yeah, I gotta say, Oliver does have a lot of reasons to lie here:

 

1. Any attempt on his part to force the issue legally in court is a) probably not going to improve his relationship with Samantha, and b) will bring the kid to Damien Darhk's attention, putting both the kid and Samantha in danger. Granted, I think many of us would probably be ok with putting Samantha in danger right now, but I don't think Oliver would be.

 

2. When Felicity did find out in the original timeline, Oliver lost her, and then lost his focus, which led to the deaths of thousands of people.

 

3. Sure, Barry had a big "DON'T CHANGE THE TIMELINE IT REALLY SUCKS" speech, but - from Oliver's point of view, in this case, changing the timeline just saved the lives of everyone involved, so why not keep changing the timeline if it means saving people?

 

4. We've seen before that Oliver has a Thing about family members and doesn't act rationally when they're involved - see, also, "Sure, I COULD just tell Ra's that Malcolm sucks, OR, I could fall off a cliff, leaving Starling City unprotected, forcing both Ray Palmer to - gasp - STOP SHOWERING because the city will need me to be replaced by a robot suit AND the audience to watch Laurel step up as the Black Canary. Yes, sure, this will be painful for everyone involved, but did I mention, Thea?" So this is - alas - in character.  

 

5. As Apinknightmare pointed out, Samantha has told Oliver that he can't actually be this kid's dad; he can only be "Mommy's friend." So it's possible that Oliver figures that it's not worth the risks of telling Felicity (Felicity leaves him, people die), since this isn't a meaningful relationship yet.

 

6. It's also possible that Oliver is hoping that after a few months/years of "Mommy's friend," Samantha will soften and allow him to tell Felicity, since Samantha - like Oliver - is reacting, not thinking clearly yet.

 

(Incidentally, Samantha, word of advice here: yeah, introducing a 9 year old to a never before met father is tricky and disruptive, no question, but when - not if - the kid inevitably finds out, he's not going to be thrilled to find out that you lied to him, which means that not only are you jeopardizing Oliver's relationship with his kid, his girlfriend, his sister and - to be completely fair - Laurel, you're also jeopardizing your relationship with your kid. Rethink this.)

 

7. Thanks to TV contrivance, Barry didn't know that original timeline Felicity wasn't unhappy about the kid - she was unhappy about the lying. So Oliver does have reason to think that original timeline Felicity was unhappy about the kid, and - as the Flash half showed - every reason to want to keep Felicity happy. (Still a bad idea, Oliver, since even if Felicity's main issue was the kid, lying about the kid is not going to make her any happier.) It's also very possible that Oliver thinks - with reason - that given Felicity's own ongoing hurt about the way her father abandoned her, that she's not going to be thrilled about this "Mommy's friend" relationship.

 

8. Oliver did want to tell Felicity. The script made that clear - if not for Samantha, he would have told Felicity. And in the original timeline, it seemed that Oliver was still struggling about whether or not he could tell her, and not telling her was killing him.  He told Samantha that Felicity was special to him, and that he needed/wanted to tell her. To be honest, Samantha's response there came off a bit as someone wanting revenge on the guy for hurting here. Which, uh, Samantha? Very nice speech about losing everything and I get that single motherhood is really hard, but to counter that, you got a cute kid and what looks like a very nice home out of all this. And you were the one who chose not to have an abortion and to lie about this to Oliver.  Unlike - again, to be fair - Laurel, you're not the victim here. 

 

(Sidenote: one real problem that Arrow sometimes has with its women characters is that these characters are in a show with other characters, and comparisons will be inevitable, making what should be sympathetic/understandable situations less so. It wasn't, for instance, unrealistic for Laurel to sink into depression and alcoholism in season two as a reaction to all of the crap she was going through; the problem was that she was doing this in the same show where pretty much every other character was going through far worse and yet managing to avoid trying to solve their problems with alcohol/booze. In this case, the problem is that Samantha was trying this "I'm the victim here Oliver, and you and your mother suck!" in the same episode where we were watching Priestess Kendra and Prince Khufu be DOOMED to 4000 years of ENDLESS DEATH AND SPOUTING WINGS just because they decided to sleep together during an evil meteor shower. (Plan your forbidden romances better, ancient Egyptian people!)  And that's just in this episode: compared to literally every other character on both Arrow and Flash and even Supergirl, as far as we've seen, Samantha has it easy. Again, I'm not trying to say that raising a kid as a single mother is easy - it's incredibly difficult. But as far as we know, from what we've seen on the show, the worst Samantha has to deal with is a deadbeat dad with a manipulative mother. Otherwise, Samantha has a nice home and a cute kid and as she herself said, stability, in a world where everyone else has evil/dead parents, evil/dead significant others, siblings who joined evil organizations, traumatizing superpowers, or severe difficulties with keeping windows in excellent repair.  And given that the manipulative mother is dead, and Samantha helped create the deadbeat dad situation, it's difficult for me to muster much if any sympathy for her.

 

9. As Oliver noted in timeline one, this was a major shock for him - and he hasn't always responded well to major emotional shocks in the past. So screwing up his reaction to this one is also in character - even if it seems to undo a lot of the progress of this season.

 

10. I'll give kudos to the writers on this point - it's very difficult to change old habits, and as Oliver has repeatedly said, he went through years of hell/torture on the island that trained him to be dishonest. So as a portrait of lingering PTSD and other mental issues, well done, even if a, it's frustrating to watch after eight episodes of a more fun, open Oliver, b, it relies on another character (Samantha) acting irrationally), and c, it's in service to a plot line that I wasn't thrilled about having on the show in the first place.

 

I'll also repeat that I think all of this would have played out better, and had more emotional weight, with just a bit more dialogue to show everyone's POV here, and clarify Oliver's choices, instead of spending time in Ancient Egypt, even if all of the Ancient Egypt stuff made me laugh.

[dtissagirl]

The problem trying to establish motivation is probably more on Baby Mama than on Oliver, who, yes, is an extremely reactive character when emotions and family are involved. But still, I get stumped at --

 

Samantha: you can't tell anyone about this!

Oliver: not even my girlfriend?

Samantha: NO!

Oliver: But why? What does it change if Felicity knows, if I'm just gonna be "a friend of mommy's"?

Samantha:  ????

[apinknightmare]

I'm going to bring over something I posted in the episode thread, because these things are still a bit unclear to me:

what do you think?

 

I think he was going to stay out of the kid's life and not tell Felicity about him.

Edited December 3, 2015 by apinknightmare

[tv echo]

Oliver told the kid that he was going to come by and visit him occasionally: "William, I'd love to come by every once in a while and say hello. Would that be all right with you?"

 

So that means secret trips to Central City every once in a while.

Edited December 3, 2015 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

The problem trying to establish motivation is probably more on Baby Mama than on Oliver, who, yes, is an extremely reactive character when emotions and family are involved. But still, I get stumped at --

 

Samantha: you can't tell anyone about this!

Oliver: not even my girlfriend?

Samantha: NO!

Oliver: But why? What does it change if Felicity knows, if I'm just gonna be "a friend of mommy's"?

Samantha:  ????

And that's my real issue because the only answer is DRAMA!

[looptab]

I think he was going to stay out of the kid's life and not tell Felicity about him.

So you think he was never going to tell her, even if he intended to not being a part of his life? Because I got that what Barry told him made him change his mind about meeting the kid, I was wondering more about the timeline change effects etc.

[apinknightmare]

So you think he was never going to tell her, even if he intended to not being a part of his life? Because I got that what Barry told him made him change his mind about meeting the kid, I was wondering more about the timeline change effects etc.

 

Yeah, Barry was under the impression that Felicity and Oliver broke up because of the kid - he didn't know that Felicity was upset about the lying, not about the kid, and that's what he told Oliver. So I think if he wasn't going to be involved, Oliver wouldn't have said anything for fear of losing her. 

[statsgirl]

.I can sort of understand why Oliver did what he did, although I think it's a very bad idea.  He was hit with a lot of earth-shattering (literally) things happening, Barry told him Felicity had a huge fight with him in the other timeline, and while he really wants a relationship with his son, he hasn't had any time to really think over.  So just as Felicity got hit with a huge thing in the other timeline, Oliver is still needing to process this before he makes his stupid decisions.

 

Too bad he didn't take the time on the trip back to Star City to do it.

Meanwhile, Arrow just went out of its way to point out that Oliver needs Felicity to be the Green Arrow; without her, he screws up. With Samantha, he screws up. .

This is the glimmer of hope in it all.  Whatever the short-term writing flaws are, and they are many, the show tends to be consistent in overall themes and one of the most consistent has been that when Oliver pushes his friends away, especially Felicity, he screws up.  So I'm expecting (hoping) him to screw up big time here.

 

But I still don't trust the show not to have him date Samantha because she's the mother of his child.

 

If Oliver upsets that boys mother, he will never have a positive relationship with him.   Samantha feeling harrassed and upset because of legal matters would not go over well with the Son who has spent 9 years with his mother alone, harrassment and anxiety initiated by his newly arrived, seeking a relationship Father.   Bad President.

He won't have a positive relationship with the boy if he allows the mother to set arbitrary and unfair demands.  She knew he wasn't the drunk womanizer of the past, this was a serious, responsible man with a steady girlfriend who is running for mayor of his city.

 

What she wanted was what is best for her, not for her child, and she loses a lot of points right there.  And with some people, once you start giving in to things like that, the demands just get worse. 

 

Would she really be willing to poison her son's mind against his father if he takes her to court for something so small as visitation rights?  That's a bad mother right there.

[Sunshine]

New OTP = Ollie & Willie Queen? (Wollie?) Argh

 

The theme is family.  The one you are born into or the one you choose?

Diggle: The one you choose

Oliver: Blood?

[dtissagirl]

Do you guys watch Limitless? There was an episode earlier this season where the premise was Brian struggling with whether he should tell Rebecca that the FBI knew her father was involved in the Main Conspiracy Plot. Telling her could put her in danger [Colin Salmon threatened to kill her if Brian told her anything], and it could also end up putting Brian in jail, because knew what he knew because he stole classified documents from Rebecca's boss.

 

Anyway. He spends the episode rationalizing why he can't tell her, and comes to the conclusion that the logical thing to do would be to keep it from her... and then at the end of the episode he tells her anyway because it was the RIGHT thing to do. And I thought that was such a GOOD way to use a terribad secret plot of doom, because it's not about the secret -- it's about the characters, and the relationships.

 

Arrow's secrets are about the secrets themselves. They're more important than the characters/relationships. Because bad writing is bad.

[looptab]

Yeah, Barry was under the impression that Felicity and Oliver broke up because of the kid - he didn't know that Felicity was upset about the lying, not about the kid, and that's what he told Oliver. So I think if he wasn't going to be involved, Oliver wouldn't have said anything for fear of losing her. 

Thanks. I still need to process all this, tbh. Everything I read on this board makes total sense and I find myself agreeing even with discordant opinions, haha. Damn you Arrow.

[calliope1975]

What I'm really getting from all of this is Barry needs to mind his own fucking business and deal with his own shit. Great, now I'm pissed at the protagonist of a completely different show over this.

[hogwash]

Everyone disintegrated in a nuclear holocaust because their plan didn't work. Barry would be dumb and kind of a monster is he didn't tell someone. It's just unfortunate he was really really wrong about the cause of the fight/breakup.

[Chaser]

Barry should have just told Oliver "Hey this kid thing is distracting, I need you to wait until the Big Bad is defeated before you deal with this." 

 

Why exactly was Oliver dealing with it then???

[way2interested]

Phew, that was something....

 

Everyone has said everything I think needs to be said about what happened and what will probably happen next regarding Oliver and Felicity's relationship, but I was just thinking about something that I thought was somewhat interesting in how they have been addressing some of the issues between them in s4. Don't get me wrong, I'm not too pleased with how this episode turned out, and I'm not too looking forward to what's coming next, but it's just something I noticed.

 

Something that I noticed and appreciated for this season is that the writers have been addressing the significant and personal issues that Oliver and Felicity have that need to be addressed to pursue a long-term relationship. Some of the issues I had with Oliver and Felicity riding off to the sunset (What about Oliver's relationship with these other characters? Do they really feel up to just leaving the city like that? Did Felicity just give up everything to be with Oliver? Are the two of them really going to be happy not helping their friends and the city?) had been brought up and addressed and dealt with and made me feel satisfied to see this relationship continue.

 

What I see with this new plotline is the writers going into a deeper and more complicated issue of Oliver's and Felicity's views of the world that have been show as significantly different but never too conflicting. In s3 though, Oliver was willing to deceive his friends for the sake of the greater good and even die unnecessarily for the mission. Felicity's own views conflicted with that, seeing the hurt that was occurring in the midst of these actions (or the ends do not justify the means). Even before that, in 312, when Oliver chose to team with Malcolm, Felicity could not stand to even be considered a woman that Oliver loved knowing that he is willing to compromise standards for a cause. Even though a lot of people, including me, hated this plot development, it did happen, and the consequences were felt in s3 and to an extent s4. Even earlier than that, in 302, Oliver's and Felicity's different mourning reactions conflicted with each other and affected each of their plots going forward and away from each other.

 

However, this conflict of views between Oliver and Felicity has always been existing within the show, even with many of these conflicts resulting in significant character development for Oliver, this conflict has never been addressed in an episode. Ultimately, it is better to show and not tell, but when two people enter a long-term relationship, they need to hash out their differences to make sure that they are indeed with a person they can connect and co-exist with. In 323, Oliver had just outright deceived and lied to Felicity, pretending to be Darth Oliver for the ultimate sake of keeping her, his friends, and the city safe. Felicity was upset at this reveal, but this was never addressed, quickly pushed aside to get to the happy ending. Now, here, a semblance of this is happening again, Oliver lying to her for the sake of trying to win in a no-win situation, except now it is being addressed. Oliver sees this as his only way to continue his lifestyle, Felicity sees lying to her as a sign of complete mistrust that could shatter their entire relationship. This conflict of the ultimate views in life (ends justify the means vs. the opposite), however dramatic, needs to be addressed and dealt eventually before the plot line becomes truly overused between them.  

 

Now, this plot hasn't been neatly introduced whatsoever, but I at least respect the writers a bit to keep continuing on with this pattern of addressing aspects of Oliver and Felicity that could force them apart and yet use them to ultimately strengthen them as a couple. No idea how they are going to get around this one honestly, and I don't have that much trust in their execution style, but I am looking forward to what Felicity's next reaction will exactly be, compared to the rushed, slightly dramatic one that happened last night.

[AyChihuahua]

 

2. When Felicity did find out in the original timeline, Oliver lost her, and then lost his focus, which led to the deaths of thousands of people.

He doesn't get to lie just because telling the truth could cause a distraction.  He doesn't have some special hero card in which everyone else has to walk on eggshells to keep him happy and undistracted forever.  He has the same requirements to be decent as everyone else.

 

Plus, the battle was over.  They won.  The whole battle distraction argument is over.  He's still not telling her.  From other sources, we know 

he's not going to be the one to tell her at all, she'll find out around the middle of the season, which means he's going to lie to her for MONTHS, not days.

 

Being afraid of losing people is not a valid excuse to lie to, manipulate, and use people.  That's the kind of rationalizing people use to justify not confessing cheating, or serious financial problem, or SECRET KIDS.  He has a grace period of a few days, maybe as long as a week, to tell her, or he's scum.  If he 

does propose without telling her, he's utter scum.

 

And nothing Samantha says has any meaning.  Even putting aside the law, which would grant him visitation, which he would know if he wasn't so unbelievably stupid, FELICITY IS AWESOME AT KEEPING SECRETS.  Unless Baby Mama bugged him, she would never know that Felicity knows.  Ever.  Felicity would take that secret to her grave if necessary.  So no, other than processing for a few days, Oliver has no excuse for not telling Felicity, and has a LOT more Ollie in him than I thought.  And Ollie was the worst.

Edited December 3, 2015 by AyChihuahua