Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[AyChihuahua]

There have probably been hints that he didn't think he was good enough, but I think the vast majority of that idea is from fanfiction.  Same with the VAST majority of the idea that he preemptively dumped her in S3 being about keeping her safe, which it clearly was not.  It was because he considered her, or presumably any other romantic relationship, to be a distraction.  That had to hit Felicity pretty hard, that she's just a distraction to him.  He was happy to keep her on the team and keep risking her in that way, but he wouldn't risk his heart or his mission for her.

 

Still want to punch S3 Oliver REALLY hard in the face.  Probably S2b Oliver, too.  

[tarotx]

Being with someone Oliver really loved was a distraction but it was a distraction about being able to keep her and everyone safe.

So I get the Fan fiction leap with both things.

[AyChihuahua]

Being with someone Oliver really loved was a distraction but it was a distraction about being able to keep her and everyone safe.

So I get the Fan fiction leap with both things.

If it had been about keeping her safe, it makes no sense to keep her on the team.  I think it was about her distracting him from his mission, which is pretty dismissive of him.  

[apinknightmare]

I think he thought that his happiness was a distraction, and that when he was distracted, people got hurt. I don't think he was specifically worried about Felicity - lots of other people got hurt when that restaurant exploded.

[hogwash]

I hate that breakup. "Don't ask me to say I don't love you." Shut up . She's just been injured in a horrible bombing and he freaking dumps her. The reason he did that are just as murky as Malcolm's *so stupid everyone had a lobotomy in S03 and it worked* plan. 

[tangerine95]

I always thought the reason he couldn't be with her is because he thought if he was the Arrow he couldn't be all in with her and give her everything she deserved from a relationship as well as that if he was happy he couldn't be as focused on saving the city as he needed to be.It was a dumb reason and he was clearly wrong but I understood it and thought it would be an issue at some point.They didn't really write his identity crisis all that well though,it was dragged out way too long.I'm glad it wasn't about keeping her safe and that he never tried to get her to quit the team.

Edited November 16, 2015 by tangerine95

[hogwash]

I'm gonna try to not to let this devolve into a "1001 ways S03 sucked" thing but it went from *maybe I meant it that I love you* to *I'm so in love with you that it distracts me from being an effective vigilante*. The essays, meta, gifsets, and flailing tags are one thing, but they did a horrible job showing how/why Felicity was different from any of his other romantic relationships. Why he could be the Arrow/Hood/whatever and be with them, but not with Felicity? Why after all the times he lost focus/fucked up horribly because of a romantic relationship (Laurel, Helena, etc.), one restaurant bombing is a total dealbreaker?

[AyChihuahua]

Here is what I worked out re Malcolm's plan:

 

Drugged his daughter to murder Sara, with whom he had a confrontation (and beat, I believe) in the 2.5 comics.  

 

Knowing Oliver, once he FINALLY figured it out, would challenge RAG to a duel, which, if Oliver won, would wipe out both Thea's and Malcolm's blood debt...Thea's for Sara, Malcolm's for killing 503 people (Oliver, you are 100% forever a moron for helping Malcolm escape any form of justice for his multitude of crimes).

 

In no way assisted Oliver in figuring it out, even though he NEEDED Oliver to figure it out for it to work.  Actually denied doing it, which Oliver, in his utter S3 cabbage-brained fashion, bought.  Because mass-murdering psychopathic liars are known for the unwillingness to deny additional crimes they have in fact committed.

 

The timing is particularly hinky, bc they only figured it out bc Felicity sent the corrupted DNA to STAR Labs, which Malcolm had nothing to do with, but SHOCKINGLY coincided with the 24 (48?)-hour deadline that RAG just happened to give them right after Felicity gave the DNA to Caitlin.

 

Oliver lost, meaning Malcolm's convoluted plan was all completely for naught.  He had zero reason to believe Oliver would survive, so...Plan B?

 

Malcolm later made fun of Oliver's sword skills, even though he knew when he set this all in motion that Oliver would have to fight RAG, who had been swordfighting for 100+ years, with a sword.

 

Malcolm also ended up telling Oliver, after the big swordfight, that an archer cannot beat a swordsman.  So, WHY DID YOU SEND AN ARCHER TO FIGHT A SWORDSMAN IN A FIGHT IN WHICH YOU HAD A REAL INTEREST IN THE OUTCOME, YOU FRIGGING WEIRDO?

 

Malcolm claims to love Thea, who was only in danger both from the beginning and every day thereafter because of Malcolm (continuing threat that he would spill the beans on her), and loves Oliver "like a son," meaning he didn't just do all this ridiculousness just to off Oliver, presumably.

 

Forever dumb.  

Edited November 16, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[tangerine95]

I think Felicity is different to him because he feels stronger for her then he did in his other relationships.We've never seen Oliver as in love with someone as he is with Felicity.He said he was in love Laurel but everything about their relationship pre and post island shows he really wasn't,Sara was more comfort I don't think they were in love,with Helena he was desperate to try and save her from becoming like him,McKenna wasn't really all that serious and I took it to be his attempt at a normal life.

He wasn't really both the Arrow and Oliver with them either.He constantly lied to Laurel and just wanted to stop the undertaking,get together with her without ever telling her he was the Arrow.McKenna was also him lying all the time.Helena and Sara were both relationships based on his Arrow persona and shared trauma and darkness.All of those relationships also failed.So he hasn't really ever had a chance to be both like he needed to be in order to make it work with Felicity.I think he was already pretty uncertain he could be happy but having a few good months made him hope he could be and all it took was that one bomb to make him pull back and then Sara dying cemented in his mind that it would be the same for him.

[AyChihuahua]

Thinking about how MM's plan could have been made less totally stupid...he could have gone to Oliver in 3.2, told him what he'd done, what the outcome would be, and started training him then.  RAG would have presumably been surprised by his sword skills, and Oliver actually could have won.  (I'm not talking about what would work in the show, bc the protagonist can't take out the primary antagonist that early, but it would have worked as an MM plan.  Then maybe they could have switched to MM being the antagonist for the rest of the season.)

 

Absolutely the only reason MM's nonsensical plan worked is because it was written to work.  Just like the only reason Team Arrow and especially Felicity survived is because they were written to survive.

[hogwash]

Forever dumb.  

 

 S03 tagline. 

 

The Queens turned into drooling morons to make Merlyn fit. But I hate Oliver deciding to train/team up with Malcolm almost as much as I hate drugged Thea killing Sara. I swear it only happened so they could stall Oliver/Felicity longer because what other freaking reason would keep them apart after Oliver literally dies? It's not like Malcolm actually trains Oliver. They sword fighting once then Malcolm drops Oliver and Thea off at Lian Yu with some booby traps. That's it. 

 

EDIT: I'll probably won't get into LOT that much, but I kinda love it on principle because it was like vindication. It hilariously invalidated S03 two months before it ended and announced that Ray Palmer sucked too much to get his own show.

Edited November 16, 2015 by hogwash

[AyChihuahua]

 S03 tagline. 

 

The Queens turned into drooling morons to make Merlyn fit. But I hate Oliver deciding to train/team up with Malcolm almost as much as I hate drugged Thea killing Sara. I swear it only happened so they could stall Oliver/Felicity longer because what other freaking reason would keep them apart after Oliver literally dies? It's not like Malcolm actually trains Oliver. They sword fighting once then Malcolm drops Oliver and Thea off at Lian Yu with some booby traps. That's it. 

Yeah, we've discussed how utterly, almost shockingly stupid S3 was (and especially S3 Oliver, who I think may have had an early-1900s-style lobotomy in 3.1), but the whole "Only the student can defeat the master" bullshit made me actually rage.  Oliver won in S1 and S2 because he DIDN'T FIGHT IN THE WAY HE WAS EXPECTED TO.  He shook things up...he shoved an arrow through himself to kill Malcolm, and he thought outside the box (and used Felicity, which was genius in idea, awful in execution bc there was ZERO in-show reason for him not to clue her in) to defeat Slade.  But Tatsu spouts some pseudo-philosophical bullshit and all of a sudden Oliver's all up on Malcolm to teach him to swordfight well enough to beat RAG, even though WE ALL KNOW MALCOLM IS SCARED TO DEATH OF RAG AND IS WELL AWARE HE CAN'T BEAT RAG.

[kismet]

I'm gonna try to not to let this devolve into a "1001 ways S03 sucked" thing but it went from *maybe I meant it that I love you* to *I'm so in love with you that it distracts me from being an effective vigilante*. The essays, meta, gifsets, and flailing tags are one thing, but they did a horrible job showing how/why Felicity was different from any of his other romantic relationships. Why he could be the Arrow/Hood/whatever and be with them, but not with Felicity? Why after all the times he lost focus/fucked up horribly because of a romantic relationship (Laurel, Helena, etc.), one restaurant bombing is a total dealbreaker?

It was a bullshit dealbreaker... I will give you that. But I think he didn't want to hurt FS by promising things he couldn't deliver. I do not think her safety or her place on the team were ever factors. He didn't feel he could commit to her and the mission. He chose the mission. He probably knew that if he tried to do both, he would always put the mission above her which in the end would hurt more than if he just stopped them before they ever began.

 

Frankly, I don't think he cared if he hurt any of the other females he was with. Their emotions were never high on his priority list. Sure he cared about them, but I don't think he was ever in love with them. Whereas he was in love with FS, so if he hurt her that would have devastated him. If LL, SL, HB, McKenna and whoever else got a broken heart over him choosing the mission or walking away, he would just move onto the next conquest.

 

It was primarily OQ's fault that he & FS were not together in s3. However, FS did nothing about it until 320, she shares some blame in not pursuing the chance of happiness with OQ if it was so important to her. He said he wasn't able to be in a relationship and she just accepted that face value, no questions asked, no conversation. She didn't even blink an eyelash. She hopped a train to CC and got a new job. If she was unhappy not being with OQ, it was within her power to attempt to change it and she never even tried.

[Ceylon5]

In the circumstances, Felicity not trying to be with Oliver in the first part of the season was the only reasonable way they could write the arc, given that the writers had made the decision to stall the relationship until the end of the season.  Making her chase after him and having him turn her away would have made Felicity look pathetic and Oliver look bad (or worse than he already looked for dumping her for no reason).  It would have been a no win situation.  Having her walk away after he dumped her gave her her dignity and allowed him to moon after her without coming off as a total douche (or, at any rate, less of a douche, for those of us who still found his 'love you but refuse to be with you' shtick pretty douchy).

 

The moment the writers were ready for them to get together, they allowed Felicity to make a move - and get the desired result.  Having her make a move and just get turned away again would have been horrible to watch.  I'm really, really glad they didn't go there.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Ceylon5

[tangerine95]

I'm glad she walked away too.I wouldn't have wanted to see her get turned down after trying to get through to Oliver which would have happened.I also think after 3.01 she wasn't really aware of how strong his feelings for her were.I mean in 3.09 she implies that she thinks Oliver regrets kissing her so I don't think she thought she could change his mind.She had hope until he came back from almost dying and I get her thinking that if that didn't change his mind about having to be alone,nothing will.

IMO she needed to walk away and try to have a life outside of Oliver and the team.That was a good way to deal with it the problem was they had her do that with Ray which was just awful.I believe if they had given her a better LI that was actually about her and not launching a spinoff,that whole storyline would have been a lot better then what we got in season 3.

[AyChihuahua]

S3 Oliver Queen was the Emperor and Supreme Leader of All Moronic Douchebags.  The capitalization is intentional, bc it's an actual title.  So I was glad she blew him off.  Later in the season I wouldn't have minded a bit more from her, but my feelings from 3.1-3.9 were pretty much "Go Felicity, go with your bad self re not playing into his dumb douchebagginess!"   I started to hate the lack of POV re her feelings around 3.17, and I particularly hated that everyone else kept telling her how she felt, including the frigging villain.  It would have been really funny if RAG had been all "Go to him, my dear, tell him you love him bc you're never going to see him again, because he is really joining my evil group as the future evil leader, even though up until five seconds ago he was a superhero, also I am really really stupid (as well as greasy) and actually believe that bullshit" and Felicity had responded "You know, I am really not all that into him, and I don't know why all you weirdos keep telling me that I am."  

 

I feel like I need to do a fic with that scene.

 

Part of the problem was the Cane Toad was such a total and complete suckfest.  I hate that guy SO MUCH.  If he hadn't sucked so very, very much, her whole S3 arc would have been much better.

[kismet]

In the circumstances, Felicity not trying to be with Oliver in the first part of the season was the only reasonable way they could write the arc, given that the writers had made the decision to stall the relationship until the end of the season.  Making her chase after him and having him turn her away would have made Felicity look pathetic and Oliver look bad (or worse than he already looked for dumping her for no reason).  It would have been a no win situation.  Having her walk away after he dumped her gave her her dignity and allowed him to moon after her without coming off as a total douche (or, at any rate, less of a douche, for those of us who still found his 'love you but refuse to be with you' shtick pretty douchy).

 

The moment the writers were ready for them to get together, they allowed Felicity to make a move - and get the desired result.  Having her make a move and just get turned away again would have been horrible to watch.  I'm really, really glad they didn't go there.

Oh absolutely, it was all because of the writing and the requirements of the plot. But if OQ is going to be held to some higher standard for having stupid reasons that somehow reflect on his personality & his character because of the plot. Than the same standard should be held for FS, her decision to remain silent and not even try to talk to him about it all (not just through passive-agressive digs) until 320 was a stupid decision. I'm glad we got OQ pining, it was good to sell that his character was really in love with FS. But the lack of FS POV & agency in most of s3 to me was very frustrating.

 

Honestly, I wondered if she did actually have feelings for him for a long while. I never understood why she didn't at least try once. The hospital scene should have had her at least wanting to talk to him about it for a few minutes. Especially after SL died, it was the perfect opportunity for her to say that she wanted more out of life and that she wanted him to be part of that life. Instead she told him she wanted more than the life he was offering and that she was not gonna wait around. One quick plea for him to join her in pursuing a life would have at least confirmed to me that she did have feelings for him. He still could have shot her down for plot. But at least we would have had confirmation that FS did have feelings for OQ from FS POV. I didn't want her to continually go after him or pine after him. I appreciate the writers did not do that. I'm glad she made the decision to have a life outside of TA.

 

I just don't think OQ should be raked over the stupidity coals for choosing not to pursue a relationship with FS. When really out of all the stupid of s3, that decision at least made the most logical sense from a relationship perspective. If you love someone and you know you cannot commit to them, you let them go. When for similar plot purposes, FS was also making a stupid decision and not being honest with herself or OQ about what she wanted. But yet few people are raking her over the decision to remain silent. 

 

At the end of the day, the reason they were kept apart in s3 was primarily artificially manufactored or exagerrated for plot purposes. We can find reasons within their psyche, personality and life experiences to justify why they might have made the decisions they made. There were nuggets of truth & rational thoughts behind their decision making. But it boils down to being all about needing the arc of the story to be written a certain way for plot purposes.

[Ceylon5]

Perhaps the difference for me was that I never doubted that Felicity wanted to be with Oliver.  It seemed super, super obvious to me.  And her conversation with Barry confirmed it (which, despite happening on The Flash, is still part of the story's canon).  Though if she wasn't in love with Oliver in the first part of season 3, then I certainly don't think that's a character flaw.  It's not like she's obliged to feel the same way he does at the same time he does.  If she was moving on a different time-scale and realised the strength or nature of her feelings later than he did, I have no problem with that.

 

Regardless of how she felt, though, I don't think it's ever unreasonable for a person to not "fight" for a relationship when they've been dumped after one (partial) date.  If they'd been married for 10 years, then sure, that's a bit different.  But Felicity had seen Oliver cycle his way through women for years; she had no reason to believe that he was suddenly going to go all domesticated just for her and she'd just got badly burned.  She'd thought him asking her out was too good to be true, and it turned out to be too good to be true.  So she let it go and tried to move on.  Fair enough response.  I just don't think that was a stupid decision for her to make, even if it happened to suit the writers' plot purposes as well.  I totally support anyone's choice not to try to force someone else into dating them, when the other person has stated that they don't want to.

 

ETA: If Felicity had reason to believe that Oliver had broken up with her because he didn't think she wanted to be with him, then I would agree that in that instance, talking to him about it would have made sense.  But he knew she wanted to date him, and he broke up with her anyway.  There really wasn't anything for her to say in the face of that.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Ceylon5

[hogwash]

But Felicity didn't get a life outside of Team Arrow. She got Ray. Or, more accurately, Ray got her. What did she actually do at Palmer Tech that didn't have anything to do with him? She was there for most of the season. Palmer Island was a stupid setup for both characters. That shortsideness meant they had to keep her in the relationship with Ray despite it being clear to anyone with half a brain that she barely had feelings for him. Because she was his only connection to literally every other named character on both shows.

Both Oliver and Felicity were melodramatic idiots. Obviously, their Arrow activities created a unique bond and love between them but it just was one freaking date. I couldn't get over that.

Then they made Diggle Team Oliver so she had no way of talking to anyone about her POV. After that dumb conversation, she didn't even talk to anyone besides Ray or Oliver about the situation. That didn't work because she was the limpet glorified lab assistant with Ray or the scorned lover (it was one freaking date!) with Oliver.

[theacostov]

If I try to put character motivations behind this I think personally Felicity wasn't aware to the extent that she loved Oliver at the beginning of S3. She said 'talk about unthinkable you and me' to which she got no response but a smile which was almost like a rejection in itself (actually it was a dangling maybe), and even when he asked her out she was surprised. I don't think she ever really allowed herself to think they were a possibility so she never really admitted to herself that she loved him. I personally also don't think she realised she loved him and how much he made her happy until after he 'died' hence why I fanwank that she didn't tell him she loved him when he left in 3x09. So yeah why would she try to convince him to try a relationship that she's not sure of herself after half a date? I understand why she didn't fight for them and don't think it's something she should be condemned for. But then again I don't think it was wrong for Oliver to end things with her. He didn't think he could give her what he wanted and he rightly removed himself as an option. I understand the motivations of both of these characters as annoying as it was to watch.

[kismet]

Perhaps the difference for me was that I never doubted that Felicity wanted to be with Oliver.  It seemed super, super obvious to me.  And her conversation with Barry confirmed it (which, despite happening on The Flash, is still part of the story's canon).  Though if she wasn't in love with Oliver in the first part of season 3, then I certainly don't think that's a character flaw.  It's not like she's obliged to feel the same way he does at the same time he does.  If she was moving on a different time-scale and realised the strength or nature of her feelings later than he did, I have no problem with that.

 

Regardless of how she felt, though, I don't think it's ever unreasonable for a person to not "fight" for a relationship when they've been dumped after one (partial) date.  If they'd been married for 10 years, then sure, that's a bit different.  But Felicity had seen Oliver cycle his way through women for years; she had no reason to believe that he was suddenly going to go all domesticated just for her and she'd just got badly burned.  She'd thought him asking her out was too good to be true, and it turned out to be too good to be true.  So she let it go and tried to move on.  Fair enough response.  I just don't think that was a stupid decision for her to make, even if it happened to suit the writers' plot purposes as well.  I totally support anyone's choice not to try to force someone else into dating them, when the other person has stated that they don't want to.

 

ETA: If Felicity had reason to believe that Oliver had broken up with her because he didn't think she wanted to be with him, then I would agree that in that instance, talking to him about it would have made sense.  But he knew she wanted to date him, and he broke up with her anyway.  There really wasn't anything for her to say in the face of that.

No he knew that she agreed to one date and "as soon as they talked about it, it would be over". To me that does not tell me the person wants to date me. It tells me that they are willing to not pursue the relationship either. For whatever her reasons were, FS seemed perfectly fine with not dating OQ for most of s3 ~ or at least that was the impression she gave for most of it. I'm tired of him being considered a douchebag because he did not want to commit to her and would occasionally say he loved her. That's just a fact and really only came out during emotionally charged moments. He didn't hold it over her. He didn't stop her from dating RP. He did not monopolize her time. He let her go. I really do not see any of his behaviors as douchebag material.

 

The FLASH train scene is a weak admission of feelings. And even if that counts for Canon, it is in certainly no way close to OQ's admission. And its to completely the wrong person/people and someone completely out of the loop, so there is no pressure for that person to call you on your feelings later. There was nothing explictly said in the ARROW text that FS had anything besides some lingering dreams about OQ to indicate that she had deeper romantic feelings for him that were worth her doing more than pining about. It was a lot of people telling FS that she loved OQ, but FS was noticeably silent on her feelings.

 

People fall in love at different paces & rates, I get that. But I don't think he badly burned her. He stopped the relationship before it started. He did not string her along. They mutually walked away from the relationship. Her silent acceptance of no possible relationship is her being an accomplice to the failure to lauch of the relationship. I don't see why it all gets blamed on him for being this stupid douchbag. Ultimately, I'm gonna have to politely disagree with anyone who blames the whole relationship debacle & angst on OQ in s3. It was a mutual decision and in the end it was all for plot purposes. Ultimately there were seeds of doubt in the relationship working from both sides in s3 that has flowed into s4. However, luckily this season O&F are allowed to talk about it and seem to be working out their problems as adults - which is the best thing for them as characters, a couple and the show.

[BkWurm1]

No he knew that she agreed to one date and "as soon as they talked about it, it would be over". To me that does not tell me the person wants to date me. It tells me that they are willing to not pursue the relationship either.

 

She knew as soon as they talked they would be over because Oliver told John while she was listening that he could not be both and had to go it alone.  And Oliver KNEW she was listening. 

 

Felicity is the one that tried to not have that conversation because the moment they talked, then it would be official and she could not pretend anymore.  She was stalling, hoping he'd not want to have that talk after all.  That tells me and should IMO tell him that she doesn't want it to be over. 

But I don't think he badly burned her. He stopped the relationship before it started.

 

Where I disagree is to what depth the relationship had already progressed BEFORE the date ever happened.  They made no commitments to each other but from my point of view, Felicity had been in love with him - maybe hopelessly - for more than a year but  had over the summer since the fake out to Slade started to hope and believe that Oliver might love her too.  And when he asked her out, she believed he loved her only for him to take it all away. 

 

He dangled his love for her before  her all summer, made her finally believe it was true when he asked her out on a date and then shut her out so then she's the one that no longer knows what is true and asked him to just confirm that she'd gotten it all wrong then because I think she thought if he loved her, then he would not be walking away, so his "Don't make me say I don't love you." was devastating because she's still getting mixed messages about his feelings but she's not about his actions.  Those are clear.   He doesn't want her love. 

 

Until she heard him speak to Cupid, she still IMO clung to hope that her quiet dreams might still find a way to happen but then she stopped believing but didn't stop loving him, but it was back to being a hopeless love, the kind that speaking of puts a burden on the other person who doesn't want it (or at least acts that way). 

 

I think the biggest reason Felicity didn't tell him that she loved him when he was off to fight Ra's was she was in shock that he felt that way.  That his love for her could be such an easy thing for him to know when such knowledge about his feelings for her was so far from being clear and true in her mind. 

 

That shock kept her rooted to where she was until he was out of the basement and then her next instincts could have been to race after him but I don't think she would have been able to tell him she loved him and still let him walk away without begging him to stay and she wouldn't put that burden on him, forcing him to chose between her and Thea.

I don't see why it all gets blamed on him for being this stupid douchbag. Ultimately, I'm gonna have to politely disagree with anyone who blames the whole relationship debacle & angst on OQ in s3. It was a mutual decision

I don't think it was a mutual decision but I also don't thing Oliver was a douchbag.  He sincerely thought he couldn't be with her.  I can scream a thousand times he was wrong, but until he believed it, it makes no difference.  He wasn't trying to hurt her even though he was.  But he was hurting himself as well and being around her but not being with her like he wanted was probably torture as well. 

Edited November 16, 2015 by BkWurm1

[kismet]

She knew as soon as they talked they would be over because Oliver told John while she was listening that he could not be both and had to go it alone.  And Oliver KNEW she was listening. 

 

Felicity is the one that tried to not have that conversation because the moment they talked, then it would be official and she could not pretend anymore.  She was stalling, hoping he'd not want to have that talk after all.  That tells me and should IMO tell him that she doesn't want it to be over. 

 

Where I disagree is to what depth the relationship had already progressed BEFORE the date ever happened.  They made no commitments to each other but from my point of view, Felicity had been in love with him - maybe hopelessly - for more than a year but  had over the summer since the fake out to Slade started to hope and believe that Oliver might love her too.  And when he asked her out, she believed he loved her only for him to take it all away. 

 

He dangled his love for her before  her all summer, made her finally believe it was true when he asked her out on a date and then shut her out so then she's the one that no longer knows what is true and asked him to just confirm that she'd gotten it all wrong then because I think she thought if he loved her, then he would not be walking away, so his "Don't make me say I don't love you." was devastating because she's still getting mixed messages about his feelings but she's not about his actions.  Those are clear.   He doesn't want her love. 

I'd have to go back and rewatch this part, because I don't remember him talking about with Dig while she was conscious. I don't think she overheard any of their conversation. But I could be wrong. I agree it was stalling to delay wanting to have the conversation. It's a very female thing to do. But OQ is a literal man with a very broken emotional health, esp at that point. If he didn't believe that he was worthy of her and then he hears her say that it's over and she is not wanting to talk about it. It's confirming his fears when taken literally. It all comes down to phrasing.

 

We'll all I think have to disagree on whatever happened on the summer, because we were never priveleged to watch it develop. The writers never really told us what truly happened during that summer. But speculation would say that they definitely got closer. But what was done, was done.

 

I never saw him as dangling maybes beyond 301. Perhaps over the summer, but again unknown. Because he shut down the possibility of the relationship pretty definitively, he just couldn't tell her he didn't love her. His actions were clear. Even his emotions were clear. Because he did love her, that was why he was making the decision he did. So it sucks to know someone loves you, but can't be with you. But that's not him dangling maybes, at no point did he ever open the door to a relationship until 320. If FS held onto hopes that he might change his mind that's on her. She asked in 301 for him to stop dangling maybes and he did. The Cupid was a big ep because it seemed like OQ might give it another chance after talking to Dig and FS decided to drop it after hearing OQ's speech. Enter the TV timing of watching RP kiss FS and it we have angst. Without the kiss, O&F might have been able to get on the same page, but then we wouldn't have a TV show.

I also don't thing Oliver was a douchbag.  He sincerely thought he couldn't be with her.  I can scream a thousand times he was wrong, but until he believed it, it makes no difference.  He wasn't trying to hurt her even though he was.  But he was hurting himself as well and being around her but not being with her like he wanted was probably torture as well.

This was how I felt. I could scream all I want but it wasn't making a difference, especially after he saw FS kiss RP in the Cupid episode. The was one and only time OQ seemed like he might change his mind & then it all changed after he saw the kiss.

[dtissagirl]

I'd have to go back and rewatch this part, because I don't remember him talking about with Dig while she was conscious. I don't think she overheard any of their conversation.

 

She did. She was sitting at the computer -- crying -- while Oliver was telling Diggle he didn't want Dig out in the field anymore. Oliver actually says "Diggle, you have a life. You have a new life, it's a life I can't have."

 

I agree with @BkWurm1 in this -- I don't think Oliver was a douchebag because he was hurting himself as much as he was hurting Felicity, and he put all the weight of it on himself too. But I also think the sole 100% complete and total reason Oliver and Felicity weren't together in S3 was Oliver.

[Balaclava]

She did. She was sitting at the computer -- crying -- while Oliver was telling Diggle he didn't want Dig out in the field anymore. Oliver actually says "Diggle, you have a life. You have a new life, it's a life I can't have."

 

 

".....But I also think the sole 100% complete and total reason Oliver and Felicity weren't together in S3 was Oliver"

 

I'm still blaming the fact that angst was needed to keep them apart, and MG&Cº just did it the worst way possible, one simple talk about it and Olicity angst wouldn't have made it past ep2.

Analyzing what the episodes show/told me (now that i have less nightmares about S3) i would say that Oliver and Felicity weren't together because of the Arrow. There was a triangle in S3, but Ray was never a part of it.

[Ceylon5]

Yes, that scene between Oliver and Diggle was, for me, Oliver and Felicity's actual break-up scene - the hospital scene was just confirmation of something that had already happened.

[kismet]

She did. She was sitting at the computer -- crying -- while Oliver was telling Diggle he didn't want Dig out in the field anymore. Oliver actually says "Diggle, you have a life. You have a new life, it's a life I can't have."

I agree with @BkWurm1 in this -- I don't think Oliver was a douchebag because he was hurting himself as much as he was hurting Felicity, and he put all the weight of it on himself too. But I also think the sole 100% complete and total reason Oliver and Felicity weren't together in S3 was Oliver.

Thanks for the info on the Dig scene. It's relevant to how FS frame of mind might have been. I honestly couldn't remember the timing of that scene until u reminded me.

We will have to agere to disagree :)I do think the majority of the blame was on OQ. But to me FS shared like 20% of the blame at least for how she handled s3a. In s3B I'd probably put 99.9% on OQ.

[hogwash]

I actually went and found what Oliver said to Cupid in 307 while Felicity listened on. This is Oliver explaining why he broke up with Felicity. I'm pretty sure this is the first time either of them directly (not to each other obviously because we can't have that) talk about how they feel about the breakup/romance.

 

"I understand that you're hurting and I know what it's like to want someone but not be able be with them. How you wish things could be different, but they can't. I can't be with you. I can't be with anyone. I have to be alone."

 

He has to be single to be the Arrow?? Uh, since when? Where the crap did that even come from? "I have to be alone" is not remotely in the same ballpark "Because of the life that I lead, I just think that it's better to not be with someone that I could really care about". There's not even a tiny hint that was an issue for Oliver before S03. At least, with "Because of the life...", Felicity had no idea Oliver was talking about her. But she just accepts "I have to be alone" with no prompting or hesitation. That's totally like her. She's definitely a character that accepts things at face value and allows others to dictate her life for her. 

 

Bonus quote from Felicity on prop duty: "I don't blame you for not wanting to sell Ray your mine, because you don't know what his plans are. The thing about Ray is he's not a businessman. Businessmen make deals, they make money. What Ray is, is something else entirely." How wise and insightful. With that kind of reasoning, who wouldn't sell their business to this guy? 

[tarotx]

Imo...

Oliver as the Arrow has a Target on his head. So he has to always be on the look out. So never all the way fully able to give himself. Though when he's with the person he truly loves he wants to go there and be fully commented. But when that happens he is distracted and those around him are in jeopardy because he (as the Arrow) has a Target on his head.

Plus because he (as the Arrow) has a target on his head, he's not likely to live a long life. Meaning he'll die and leave the people who love him in mourning. He doesn't want that for them. He wants all the happiness and joys of love and life for his loved ones. So letting Felicity go before she's fully in love with him was the best option or so he believed.

Then Sara's death at the end of 3.1 showed that yes death comes to those who live this lifestyle.

But this lifestyle wsn't ever something Oliver chose. Not really. He wants to love and doesn't want to die alone. But he feels it's inevitable. Hence a season of misery and bad decisions.

Edited November 16, 2015 by tarotx

[dtissagirl]

I did a selected episodes rewatch of S3 soon after the season ended, just to see if I could make O/F better if I edited it myself. IIRC, it went --

 

301 - Flash 104 - 305 - Flash 108 - 308 - 309 - 310 - 319 - 320 - 323

 

I think because that's less than half the amount of episodes the full season had, and I made sure to skip as much of the Palmer Island crazy eyes of DOOM as possible, Oliver/Felicity did end up working better like this. But it also made more sure than ever that the reason it didn't work within the full season was that the main directive of their story was STALL THE SHIP AT ALL COSTS. That kind of was the opposite of the story I wanted for them.

Edited November 16, 2015 by dtissagirl

[hogwash]

Sara's murder may have strengthened his resolve or whatever but he broke up with Felicity because "he has to be alone to be the Arrow" before it happened. There was no external pressure. Oliver and Team Arrow were unofficial partners with the local PD and DA's office. No one was actively after the Arrow or calling the Arrow a murderer. So, *romantic relationships are verboten because they make me lose focus* was the only thing they could come up with. It's not surprising the resulting angst was total weaksauce.

 

I did a selected episodes rewatch of S3 soon after the season ended, just to see if I could make O/F better if I edited it myself. IIRC, it went --

 

301 - Flash 104 - 305 - Flash 108 - 308 - 309 - 310 - 319 - 320 - 323

 

I think because that's less than half the amount of episodes the full season had, and I made sure to skip as much of the Palmer Island crazy eyes of DOOM as possible, Oliver/Felicity did end up working better like this. But it also made more sure than ever that the reason it didn't work within the full season was that the main directive of their story was STALL THE SHIP AT ALL COSTS. That kind of was the opposite of the story I wanted for them.

 

Yup. I can't believe that melodramatic 307 quote is actually about Oliver and Felicity. I hope they never break up again. The BS reasoning for another breakup can only get worse now that there's actually narrative heft behind the relationship. 

[looptab]

I did a selected episodes rewatch of S3 soon after the season ended, just to see if I could make O/F better if I edited it myself. IIRC, it went --

 

301 - Flash 104 - 305 - Flash 108 - 308 - 309 - 310 - 319 - 320 - 323

 

No 316? That was surprisingly good! you should consider it if you ever do another rewatch :)

[dtissagirl]

No 316? That was surprisingly good! you should consider it if you ever do another rewatch :)

 

Oh, yes, I watched that one as well!

[Carrie Ann]

I did a selected episodes rewatch of S3 soon after the season ended, just to see if I could make O/F better if I edited it myself. IIRC, it went --

 

301 - Flash 104 - 305 - Flash 108 - 308 - 309 - 310 - 319 - 320 - 323

 

I think because that's less than half the amount of episodes the full season had, and I made sure to skip as much of the Palmer Island crazy eyes of DOOM as possible, Oliver/Felicity did end up working better like this. But it also made more sure than ever that the reason it didn't work within the full season was that the main directive of their story was STALL THE SHIP AT ALL COSTS. That kind of was the opposite of the story I wanted for them.

 

I'd throw 316 in there too (and probably 302 because I like pain?), but otherwise, yeah, this is it in terms of the O/F stuff that didn't bug me.

 

And while I understand that the show didn't want to let them get together until the end of S3, I don't think there can be any question that they could have handled it better. I think we've all offered large-scale arc changes that would have helped (postponing the date until right before Oliver left for NP, for example), but just handling them with more nuance and subtlety would have made a world of difference. They spent way too much time being cold or adversarial or melodramatic with each other, and I think they needed to underscore their friendship and deep connection above all else (we only see that in 305, 308, and not again until 316!). There are tons of tiny writing (and some acting) choices along the way that could have been easily adjusted to tell a deeper, more complicated story, but we had MG as the sole driver of the bus and I don't think he cared to think about the actual emotion as much as the epic game-changers.

Edited November 16, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[tarotx]

I didn"t mean to imply Sara's death affected Oliver's decisions. Her death was to emphasize Oliver's truth to the viewers.

[dtissagirl]

It was like a compound fracture -- they thought it was a good idea to keep O/F at odds for something like 20 out of 23 episodes [it wasn't], tied to the insane amounts of monies they were spending on Brandon Routh and the ATOM suit, and the fact that they were trying to sell that dude to the CW as a viable third show. And that they decided that *Felicity* was gonna be the vehicle to carry all of that shit. By February sweeps, it had become too heavy a burden for her to carry.

[looptab]

I'd throw 316 in there too (and probably 302 because I like pain?), but otherwise, yeah, this is it in terms of the O/F stuff that didn't bug me.

 

I see your 302, and raise you 312 (I did like that alley conversation, hahah). But yeah, those are the only ones worth saving.

Edited November 16, 2015 by looptab

[lemotomato]

It was like a compound fracture -- they thought it was a good idea to keep O/F at odds for something like 20 out of 23 episodes [it wasn't], tied to the insane amounts of monies they were spending on Brandon Routh and the ATOM suit, and the fact that they were trying to sell that dude to the CW as a viable third show. And that they decided that *Felicity* was gonna be the vehicle to carry all of that shit. By February sweeps, it had become too heavy a burden for her to carry.

I remember one of MG's answers in his tumblr Q&A's, when he said that Felicity could kill kittens and people would still like her. Another example of how he has no idea of how the audience would react (no one's popularity is immune to bad story lines and OOC-ness) and an explanation (for me) of why they had her on prop duty all season 3.

Edited November 16, 2015 by lemotomato

[AyChihuahua]

I don't call Oliver a dumb douchebag just or even mostly because of preemptively dumping Felicity.  My main reasons for calling him a dumb douchebag, indeed the King of Dumb Douchebags, is mostly the LOA/Malcolm/RAG stuff.  He was a total cabbage brain all season long, and teaming up with Malcolm was a complete douchebag move.

[tarotx]

302 had a ton of important Olicity scenes but it has Felicity deciding she wants more from life than to wait around watching Oliver die alone. And heads for Palmer's island. Which I think is good in theory but sad.

[dtissagirl]

I steer away from 302, because the whole thing about putting Sara's body in the freezer makes me INSANE WITH RAGE.

[Carrie Ann]

I see your 302, and raise you 312 (I did like that alley conversation, hahah). But yeah, those are the only ones worth saving.

 

Oh man, I hate 312 and I hate that alley conversation. Not because it's painful, but because they blew the pacing of...well, everything, and that plus depriving us of Felicity's POV stripped that scene of any emotion for me. We don't get to see her react to seeing Oliver alive. We don't actually know that she was holding onto any hope of that anymore--in fact, the previous episodes made it seem like she definitely wasn't--so that line about dreaming that things might be different if he came back rang hollow to me (and I just don't like the woman you love line). I still don't think it's entirely clear what Oliver was hoping for w/r/t Felicity either (personally, I don't think he was hoping to make a go of it, but others disagree, so that's a narrative fail), so that makes it even less effective. AND worst of all, in the end, it turns out Oliver was right to work with Malcolm. So Felicity's stance is revealed (by the narrative) to be the wrong position to take, not pragmatic, all the things her critics said it was at the time.

 

Anyway, the great news, for me, is that this season has proven that the writers didn't entirely lose the thread of that relationship, like I feared they may have. I was happy with 316, 320 (minus the quickie R/F breakup that should have been initiated by her, JFC), and with 323, but...it wasn't enough to convince me that the writers remembered--or ever knew at all--what was special about these two. They seem to have figured it out over the hiatus, and I'm so glad. It's lovely to love them again without reservation.

[looptab]

Oh, I agree that the episode sucked, and you raise very good points for disliking that scene. But it just left me heartbroken, plus kicked-puppy face :)

On the other hand, I hated the finale, haha. The worst for me was after they have that heart to heart, he says that 'Felicity..Thank you' while putting away his sword, which made me laugh. I hate that single moment so hard it might have influenced the rest of the episode for me.

Edited November 16, 2015 by looptab

[AyChihuahua]

Oh, I agree that the episode sucked, and you raise very good points for disliking that scene. But it just left me heartbroken, plus kicked-puppy face :)

On the other hand, I hated the finale, haha. The worst for me was after they have that heart to heart, he says that 'Felicity..Thank you' while putting away his sword, which made me laugh. I hate that single moment so hard it might have influenced the rest of the episode for me.

The finale was terrible.  

 

I'm not sure I agree that the narrative showed that working with Malcolm was the right thing.  Because sure, he ended up being helpful in the end, but Felicity's whole thing was "finding another way."  If Oliver didn't shut everyone out and instead had gotten everyone together to plan (plus, you know, given BARRY A CALL), they could have defeated RAG without MM.  RAG was really not that big a threat.  I know we were supposed to be quaking in fear of him, but, um, no.  

 

Heck, get Amanda Waller involved.  She'd have loved to bomb the crap out of Nanda.  And in the final battle, MM was basically just another set of hands.  

 

Thinking about this a little more, this was the first big villain that Oliver fought pretty much on the villain's terms.  Villain says come here, climb this, fight with this weapon, and Oliver's like "Sure!"  Villain says join me or everyone dies, Oliver does.  He was going undercover, sure, but he was still doing it on the villain's terms.  Villain says we're going to have this final battle, at this location (the dam), using, AGAIN, this weapon.  Oliver says "Sure!"  Come on, dude!  You've won in the past by thinking outside the box, so why this time were you so very inside the box?  That is partly why he needs Digg and Felicity...they get him out of his head enough that he can think of smarter moves.

Edited November 16, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Carrie Ann]

I think we were supposed to believe that MM knew secret ways in and out of NP, stuff about their rituals, how Ra's fights, what would happen to Oliver, etc. Things that kept him safe and alive and unbrainwashed. Of course the story could have gone a different way--with Waller, or with Oliver working with Nyssa, maybe--but it didn't. So in the end, the S3 narrative made Oliver right to work with MM, which left Felicity's moral stance to look naive, not like a "war-time" decision. That bugs me. I wish Malcolm really had used Oliver and then turned on him, because that would have shown that Oliver should have found another way, and that the moral and practical thing to do was not to trust the mass murderer who lies all the time. But they love Malcolm too much and weren't creative enough to come up with a better resolution.

[kismet]

I think it was a narrative fail not knowing that if the Alleyway of Doom conversation had gone differently, perhaps OQ would have chosen to go for it. I still think he would have double downed hard on not pursuing a relationship. One I think he thought that F&R were already happening and he just wanted her to be happy. And secondly, I think he knew that this mission to take down Ras was going to probably kill or almost kill him again, so he was loosening the emotional ties, not strengthening them.

 

As for working with MM, I understood FS's stance. However, I really think it was the more pragmatic and war-time decision to work with MM. How OQ went about doing it was a little wrong. But MM was the only reliable LoA member they knew. Nyssa was not TA-adjacent yet. And MM was both invested because of TQ & expendable if something went wrong. No one would have shed a tear if MM was caught and killed while helping TA. That being said, I wish the show had let OTA have a a discussion about why working with MM was necessary, but then we would have had a break from the angst & the show can't have that. I also somehow wish they hadn't tied up O/F emotional connection with working with MM, it added a melodramatic twist that was unnecessary. It made OTA seem like they only think with their emotions and not their brains, when in previous seasons they thought with both - which is why they beat the villain by thinking out of the box.

[kismet]

You know what I loved about FS bringing up dating the Huntress as a bad idea, for me it showed how frequently and how long FS & Dig have been having conversations about OQ. I took it as the show giving me another indirect morsel of Dig & FS are friends and have secret convos off camera. Huntress was pre-FS foundry days. So a lot of what she knows about why H/OQ was a bad choice in terms of the mission & OQ has to come from Dig. Unless, they had some conversation about it over the 5mo sexcapade, which I don’t think they did. And even if they did, I doubt they would talk about what FS is referencing in this conversation.

 

So for me when she mentions Huntress, I think less about this is her talking about previous flames and more reflective of the closeness of FS & Dig. That they have talked about OQ and his tendency to make bad choices before. It is neither the first nor probably the last time FS or Dig will reference an off-screen conversation they had about TA & OQ business. I just wish they would start showing us more of these conversations. They have over 3.5 years of close friendship and the show just chooses to brush it off or hide it offscreen. To me that is an injustice to the characters.

[Password]

Well...Huntress held her at arrow point and forced her to find her dad by hacking the FBI.

It would seem a terrible dating choice to me too.

Really what we needed was Felicity listing ALL the bad decisions Oliver has made since 2007. That would probably make a rag magazine as "101 fauxpas of a billionaire".

[AyChihuahua]

AS IF there were only 101!

[kismet]

Well...Huntress held her at arrow point and forced her to find her dad by hacking the FBI.

It would seem a terrible dating choice to me too.

Really what we needed was Felicity listing ALL the bad decisions Oliver has made since 2007. That would probably make a rag magazine as "101 fauxpas of a billionaire".

True... but there were so many other examples she could have brought up. I feel like the Huntress is a callback to Dig's advice that HB was a bad idea from the getgo. So I see it was a Dig/FS relationship moment. The show is so skimpy on them, I need to get my fix where I can.

 

As for FS listing all the bad decisions, the show is only 1 hour long ~ Even if FS learned to talk like the MicroMachine guy, we still would probably need a two-parter to get through that list. :)

Edited November 19, 2015 by kismet