S05.E10: Broken Heart

[mercfan3]

I like that theory, and it could be why it's the "darkest path for emma" because she forced darkness upon someone. Even if it was for good reason. 

[bmoore4026]

Wished we got to see what the other Dark Ones looked like, instead of just a bunch of generic black hooded figures.

 

I did like the "Baby Hood" name tag :)

[Arnella]

Belle dumping Rumple now that he "has a pure heart" and is a "hero" made me think back to when she was Lacy.  She's always excused his evil and stayed with him thru his worst actions.  I had a theory back then that she was attracted to the evil and, more specifically, the power but she always had to pretend that she was staying because of the "good in him". Primarily pretending to herself to preserve her self image as a good person while she pursued magic (power) for herself..

Now that there is a REAL chance that Rumple can be the man she's always yammered (and yammered and yammered) that she wanted him to be, she can't really pretend to be satisfied with some ordinary good guy.  

I miss the honesty of Lacy.

[InsertWordHere]

Wished we got to see what the other Dark Ones looked like, instead of just a bunch of generic black hooded figures.

Yeah, like is the boar there or what?

[tennisgurl]

I want to know how that flame spewing warthog Dark One is fitting under that black cloak. 

[Watt]

Am I the only one who really liked this episode? There were definitely some issues -- for example, why exactly did Hook have to cast the dark curse? I may have not been paying attention to that.

But Hook had magic! I loved that. And I loved his dark pirate costume and the fight on the Jolly Roger and the hair and guyliner. Colin and JMo were just awesome tonight.

I'm still hoping that all this is a ruse and Killian is much smarter than he has let on. It's just going to be so much more heartbreaking for puppy dog Killian if it isn't.

I likes it, and I am also firmly in the "Hook is playing the dark ones" camp. Something has got to give. Has to be a ruse. Either its a ruse or he's being possessed somehow. Idk. I'm not convinced yet.

[Triskan]

One point this episode convinced me of was that Emma is amazing at fighting the Darkness.

 

I think a lot of Hook's snarks and deeds were influenced by the Darkness, in the way, in the end, it influenced all the other Dark Ones. Yeah, you can say that Rumple appeared more rationale at times, but deep down, he was as sneaky and twisted as Hook appeared to be here, he was just better at finding himself excuses.

 

But really, Emma is giving a hell of a time to the Darkness ! She's given in a few times, yeah, but always managed to pull herself above it, so kuddos Emma !

[KingOfHearts]

 

 

The only thing I can come up with that even remotely makes sense is that Hook has less control over it, and less free will than Rumple had, and even Emma had, because the Goop was forced on him.

Rumple chose it, and completed the stabbing to make sure it happened.  Emma chose it to tether it, but it was still a choice.  Maybe that makes a diference in who/what controls the steering wheel?

Yeah, I was thinking that too. Rumple and Emma had a good intention to anchor them. They were more "prepared" to take on the darkness because they voluntarily chose it. Even though Emma did something that ticked him off, I don't quite understand how his love for her isn't punching through the darkness. 

 

I'm hoping next week we get to some some Dark Ones do more than just wear cloaks. Maybe a Zoso cameo or a literary character we haven't seen before.

Edited November 30, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

anyone else find it odd that they pulled Lancelot out to bring up his mother the Lady of the Lake and sent him on his way to find her, because she has the power to assist them?

 

Is this just some line they threw in there to justify why Lancelot was not pulled in by the curse, or is the Lady of the Lake Nimue like in the Arthurian legends? Can this at least be true, since Arthur is an ass, and Merlin is not as wise as he's supposed to be?

[mjgchick]

Hooks more in your face than sneaky Dark One. Rumple is more sneaky while Emma is even more "The only one who saves me is me." Nimue is more power hungry than the other Dark Ones. She's probably scarier than the others because she did not give a fuck when she killed that guy. Merlin couldn't even convince her not to for a second.

If Nimue is Lance mother I'd think that's why she wanted to come back but I think she dgaf about anyone.

Edited November 30, 2015 by mjgchick

[Mari]

She's probably scarier than the others because she did not give a fuck when she killed that guy. Merlin couldn't even convince her not to for a second.

That's because from what I could tell, Nimue loved Merlin about the same amount that Pan seemed to love his dehearted Lost Boy.  When you make even Regina look cold . . . 

 

 

Is this just some line they threw in there to justify why Lancelot was not pulled in by the curse, or is the Lady of the Lake Nimue like in the Arthurian legends? 

If she were another--different--Nimue, it would at least make Merlin's message about finding Nimue not completely delusional.  (Of course, he probably should've said "Lady of the Lake," but still.)

[Dianthus]

mercfan3, on 29 Nov 2015 - 6:54 PM, said:

Meh, it's all them but it's not. If you think of dark magic as an addiction it makes sense to me. People don't act like themselves when they are addicted to something. So it's them, but it's often..someone else.

 

I also think the darkness brings about the worst parts of people. Nimue was vengeful. Rumple power tripped because he had been a coward. Dark Swan isolated herself. And Hook had a cruel/bully streak too him. 

 

As for Belle, she originally broke up with him, and I don't know that we ever saw her change her mind on that. To me, she said "I have to decide what I want on my own." And that's fair..and one of the more rational things she's done. She was already through with Rumple, but now she's thinking about whether she wants to try or not. 

 

They need to do a better job in showing Hook's motivation and what actually happened. But he's hinted at it. He said a few times he still had feelings for Emma and he sees her as an anchor. So snuffing out the light is his plan. But I'm hoping we see more of it because Emma knew what Hook was planning on doing so something must have happened before the curse. 

I hated the 'magic addiction' storyline on BtVS. Saying someone is addicted to magic is, IMO, like saying someone's addicted to electricity.

[LizaD]

Imagine what a Dark Regina would've gotten up to, considering what she was capable of without the goop.

She would've just died like the Apprentice did and what a joy that would've been. Black Flubber can only kill everything in its path unless it gets tethered to a host.

but calling her an orphan was a direct stab at her heart. That was the worst thing he could say to her, really.

Yeah not to mention that while other DOs have hurt their loved ones, it was mainly unintentional. They weren't ever the direct target or the intent to hurt them wasn't there. At most Rump just willfully neglected to see that his actions hurt Belle or Bae. Even when Rump came back in 4B he could've been pissed at Belle for kicking him out but he wasn't. Hook intentionally hurt Emma and that's a new one. Maybe he had a more legit reason to be mad but it taints their previously healthy "normal-ish" relationship to a full blown soap opera-ish one thats just like the others on the show.

And the damn CGI flowers has thankfully ended now right? Once was enough to be spray can cheesy but still edible. Now the thing is just unnecessary. Or is that all their budegt allows for? Fake fields of flowers?

Also this show has really abanonded the family friendly fairy tale whimsy haven't they? I can't see how anyone still thinks this is for the 5 year old kiddies or marketed for them lol.

Why do we have so many DOs if all we get are Nimue, Zoso and the boar? They couldn't have squeezed in some others in there? What other smaller Disney villains? Like Heffalumps and Woozles? Or the Lion King Hyenas? Iago? Or would it be too silly for the serious DRAMA?

Edited November 30, 2015 by LizaD

[Shanna Marie]

Now that we've concluded the Camelot story, it seems that a lot of stuff earlier this season was just for the cool rather than making any sense. Emma didn't have much reason to be angry at her parents upon the return to Storybrooke, so was just keeping them at a distance. The "now life is precious to you" to Regina, I guess had something to do with Regina insisting on her healing Robin but being against saving Hook. The "when something has your name on it, hang onto it" bit doesn't make a lot of sense because no one other than Regina used the dagger to control Emma, and she didn't make her do anything awful. Merlin didn't know the sword would have his name on it, so it's not like he let it out of his grasp. Hook was angry because she didn't let him have the sword with his name on it, but then bad things happened when she gave him the sword with his name on it. So the "hang onto things with your name on them" thing doesn't fit anything that happened.

 

I guess the boatload of Dark Ones is the bad thing that was coming that Emma told Regina was worse than her and the Fury was a fakeout.

[HoodlumSheep]

Lancelot stuff: that probably happened in the bit I missed.

Next episode is probably going to be rushed too. I'm getting 4x11 deja vu, an I don't like this feeling.

They have to wrap up Darth Killian, the DO crew, set up the next arc, finish up the Camelot crew's story (de-sanding Guinevere, dealin with Arthur, getting home somehow), plus Hook/Regina flashbacks.

Like, that's a lot.

Edited November 30, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[MaiLuna]

Emma loves Hook so much. :'(

 

I hate that Hook became so dark so fast too. Where did all that darkness that enveloped him came from anyway? Even Rumpel, when he was banished by Belle he still loved her so why does Hook hate Emma? He doesn't even hesitate. I hate this and I won't ever forgive & forget if they have Emma kill Hook. Is Hook possesed by the previous DOs completely? He doesn't care that Rumpel isn't dead and that's the reason he cast the curse.

 

Although I get that having a child can make you better, I hate that it seems like Regina only (kinda)stopped being evil just because that's what Henry would want and not because she has any remorse or because she thinks what she used to do was wrong.

 

I did like that we got some meaningful scenes with all the regulars. And I agree on all the: "shut up, Henry"s and "WTF, Belle?"s that have been posted.

[mjgchick]

Also this show has really abanonded the family friendly fairy tale whimsy haven't they? I can't see how anyone still thinks this is for the 5 year old kiddies or marketed for them lol.

Well I think S1 wasn't so family friendly. This is probably the darkest season to date but S1 felt more adultish than the mess the show has turned into.

[InsertWordHere]

Maybe Hook's master plan is to get all the Dark Ones to go after the Dark One who killed them. "Hey Gorgon, remember when Zoso stabbed you? And then he gave up and let a coward kill him?" Chaos erupts as each Dark One tries to kill their successor. Seriously, why would these beings be working together?

[snarkastic]

I've already mostly vented my frustration about the HoOk iz the EVILEST* on tumblr, so new thought, Emma appeared to only take away those in the diner's memories with the dreamcatcher, because they knew she made Hook a Dark One, so why did Merida and the Camelot crew lose their memories, too. Honestly, this whole arc felt like a whole lot of unnecessary drama for no reason. This whole show is becoming unnecessary to me. I haven't wanted to quit this much since 'The Queen is Dead'.

 

*(My biggest complaint is we're past it now, so no matter how much wank we think up, there won't ever BE an explanation on the 0 to 1000, because PLOT PLOT PLOT is more important)

[Rumsy4]

Wow--that episode was utterly painful to watch. Captain Swan was giving me whiplash.

 

Hook said some pretty horrible things tonight. But I am reserving my judgement until the finale to see how they resolve this. I'm thinking Hook has a hidden agenda. He doesn't want Emma to pay a steep price like that duffer Merlin warned. So, he's concocted a plan to pay the price himself. I'm too drained to add anything more right now.

 

Oh, and about Rumple acting like he is the cleanest most honorable hero ever:

http://38.media.tumblr.com/e10c50971d3d4e7fc7be8ac51730ec77/tumblr_inline_nuisipNCYo1rpcnpz_500.gif

[InsertWordHere]

Emma appeared to only take away those in the diner's memories with the dreamcatcher, because they knew she made Hook a Dark One, so why did Merida and the Camelot crew lose their memories, too. 

I think it's because she put the memory wipe into the suddenly already made curse potion and it spread from there with the curse.

[Sarcastica]

There was some very loud "Shut up, Henry" in my living room. For one thing, Rumple didn't change. He pretended to change while he kept on doing evil things, and he's responsible for the current situation because he pulled all kinds of schemes to come back to Storybrooke, and he did so with the intent of turning Emma dark so he could save himself. But all the time when Henry was trusting him, he was actually working behind everyone's back on some evil scheme or another. For another, yeah, using Violet's heart (and subsequently setting things right) and then keeping everyone at a distance to work through things on her own and protect someone she loves who generally doesn't have the support of everyone else isn't nearly as much to forgive as multiple murders and curses, and whatnot. Emma as Dark One has done far less damage than Regina did on a single bad day when she was in a snit. Keeping Henry at a distance to protect him and Hook isn't anywhere near the same league as gaslighting him, destroying things he loved just to keep control over him, and plotting to kill the rest of his family so Regina could have him to herself. So, shut up, Henry. Though at least he did end up coming through for her, so we'll let him live. This week.

 

Yes to all of this. Yeah Henry came through for Emma in the end (golf clap), but man that kid had my eyes rolling earlier. 

[snarkastic]

I'm thinking Hook has a hidden agenda. He doesn't want Emma to pay a steep price like that duffer Merlin warned. So, he's concocted a plan to pay the price himself. I'm too drained to add anything more right now.

 

A big problem with this episode is that there isn't any time for him to have formed an EVIL plan, but now there's time to form the evil plan AND the real hero plan? He hasn't even been the Dark One (with his memories) for a day yet and he's running double blinds? This entire plot is giving me 2B Regina/Cora flashbacks. Regina wasn't faking everyone out by teaming up with her, and she was actually on the redemption path, too, at the time.

 

ETA:

I think it's because she put the memory wipe into the suddenly already made curse potion and it spread from there with the curse.

 

I'll have to watch again (UGH) maybe I'm confusing with the scene where she puts the memories back, but I just remember the (single!) dreamcatcher and not anything to mess with the cauldron

 

Edited November 30, 2015 by snarkastic

[mjgchick]

I just remembered something, Emma held Hook the way Snow held David when the curse was coming. She really is her mother's daughter.

Simpler times when we all thought this was a show about Fairy tales. :(

[KingOfHearts]

This was a very anti-shipper episode. Snowing get no material. Outlaw Queen get no material. Rumpbelle breaks up. Captain Swan is pretty much in hell right now. For show about "hope", there seems to be a shortage of it lately.

[YaddaYadda]

So it didn't make sense that Hook took Emma's memories. I mean Emma already knew what the plans of Nimue/Rumple were, to snuff out the light, and everyone else thought that's what Emma was going to do. How is it that all o a sudden the memory is important? She already knows what the plan is.

[InsertWordHere]

So it didn't make sense that Hook took Emma's memories. I mean Emma already knew what the plans of Nimue/Rumple were, to snuff out the light, and everyone else thought that's what Emma was going to do. How is it that all o a sudden the memory is important? She already knows what the plan is.

I think he took away they memory of Nimue and Rumple in the diner telling her she already knew what they were going to do, maybe?

[chrisvee]

In the diner scene in Camelot, Emma became aware of Nimue's Dark One invasion plan. That was the memory that Hook stole so that he could buy some time to get Rumple's blood.

[Arkay]

I fell in love with this show because season 1 was so much fun..all these characters who were oblivious to their fairytale selves. Each season I have enjoyed it less, because Disney characters are squeezed in for no reason other than that ABC can do so, and because the plotline long ago lost any internal consistency.

Now it's just ridiculous. I do adore Hook, and I think Colin plays him masterfully. I like the swashbuckling pirate, and I thoroughly enjoyed seeing Hook being brutal to Emma tonight. It was Bad Boy to the 100th power. However, with Emma, I just can't. I have always seen Jennifer as a wooden actress, but now with this dark one arc, I can't get past her acting choices (hers and wardrobe's too). So Emma now has this hoarse, husky voice, a sullen demeanor, white slicked back hair and black leather duds. This is her rendering of the dark one. Anyone would pale beside Robert Caryle, whose Rumple persona is fascinating and a world apart from Mr. Gold, but really what is there to Jennifer's rendition but the voice and hair?

I am not looking forward to the boatload from hell. It's just getting boring.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Arkay

[HoodlumSheep]

So it didn't make sense that Hook took Emma's memories. I mean Emma already knew what the plans of Nimue/Rumple were, to snuff out the light, and everyone else thought that's what Emma was going to do. How is it that all o a sudden the memory is important? She already knows what the plan is.

Maybe she remembers something, and the supposed plan is not what it seems. Maybe they're saving it for a plot!twist, where Emma reveals what the real plan is.

The fact that Hook managed to find Nimue (like Merlin said too) also gives me a shred of hope. How else were the Nevengers going to locate her, otherwise?

Edited November 30, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Blue Plastic]

 

• Just for the record, I find the show promoting that children can make truly bad people not bad any longer pretty disturbing.

Me too.  It's BS.  There's plenty of bad people who have children and plenty of good people who don't.  I don't think the show is really trying to say that bad people should have kids and that'll make them turn their lives around and be nicer, but it almost bordered on that and was ridiculous.  Besides, look how much having a child did for Rumple.  He was already a father and became the Dark One anyway and continued to do a bunch of other crap all along the way for years afterward, too.  That really stuck in my craw.  I have very little confidence in the ever-annoying Zelena's ability to change, but if the writers want I'm sure by next week she'll be completely redeemed while Emma continues to be berated by her family for the horrible crime of *gasp* trying to fix her mistake alone.

 

Also, show and idiot characters on it: Emma has not and will never do anything worse than all of the terrible shit Regina and Rumple have done. Her wanting to work through things on her own is not quite as bad as, well, hundreds of murders and ruined lives.

Yeah, Emma, you criminal you.  How horrible.  Look at sweet little Regina here.  She's a murderer many times over and asked you to use your magic to save her boyfriend = 100% okay.  You're not a murderer and tried to use your magic to save your boyfriend and then tried to fix your resulting mistake on your own = 100% eternal condemnation.

 

Decent episode, I just wish it wasn't so rushed. They really should have developed Killian going crazy for more than one episode. It only makes me dislike The Bear King/Merida more.

Yes - sure would have been nice if at least some of the previous Merida-centric episode could have been  used to show Hook's devolution.  I'm just not buying that he became immediately consumed by evil in Camelot, then went back to his redeemed persona upon losing his memories, only to immediately switch back to full-on evil mode when reminded of what happened in Camelot.  Neither the magical mechanism itself nor the immediate swing from normal nice guy to cackling evil pirate makes any sense.

 

I guess they are trying to say that Hook was a really bad guy for a long time so if influenced by magic he will immediately assume his old persona and it's even worse because it's overlaid by the DO curse, but it's hard for me to believe he wouldn't have tried to fight it off for even a few minutes, after all the hard work he's supposed to have put in to change.  This is taking a shortcut and it cheapens the writing.  Not sure why they did it just to give us an extra episode full of Merida.  Maybe the main cast all wanted an extra day off.

 

Belle was a doofus to come to the well to break up with Rumple.  All she had to do was NOT come and he'd know.  She already broke up with him before, when she made him walk across the town line.  No more need to rehash things really.  It was kind of funny, though, that they made a point of showing her breaking up with him (again) now when he actually might have the potential to be the person she always wanted, after she stuck with him for all the times he couldn't/wouldn't be the man she thought he could be.

[InsertWordHere]

 I'm just not buying that he became immediately consumed by evil in Camelot, then went back to his redeemed persona upon losing his memories, only to immediately switch back to full-on evil mode when reminded of what happened in Camelot.  

When Clippy!Rumple told Emma she needed to do more than erase Hook's memories, I expected she was going to do something else to alter him in some way so he didn't accidentally realize he was the Dark One in Storybrooke. Instead, she just took everyone else's memories, which granted, needed to be done for her plan to work, but it still feels like something more needed to be done to Hook, especially after his sudden awful turn to darkness.

[chrisvee]

I think that Hook did try to fight the DO curse in Camelot. But it was as simple as it looked. He didn't believe in himself but he believed in Emma. Once he realized she didn't trust him it was all over.

Now on a better show that didn't waste time on useless characters like Merida, this process would have taken more than minutes to occur. But...PLOT!

[statsgirl]

There were flaws in this episode but I'm just so darn happy that it concentrated on Emma and Hook -- Dark, light, I don't care -- instead of redeeming Regina for the eleventy billionth time or focusing on Arthur, who at this point I hate with the power of a thousand suns.

 

I liked the twist of "the heart of the person you love the most" because at first I was worried Hook was going to go after Emma.  Nice that it was Merlin for the Nimue in the Dark One.

Also, show and idiot characters on it: Emma has not and will never do anything worse than all of the terrible shit Regina and Rumple have done. Her wanting to work through things on her own is not quite as bad as, well, hundreds of murders and ruined lives.

I know. 

 

What I like about the way they're writing Dark Emma is that she keeps trying to do the right thing, unlike Regina who killed villages or Rumple who was a sociopath.  Emma keeps trying to fight the darkness but things keep going bad for her. I've just realized that on Dowton Abbey OUaT version, Regina is Lady Mary and Emma is Edith.

 

* Still freaking hate Henry. Also hate how the Violet thing is being treated as the worst betrayal ever. I wish Emma didn't have to constantly attempt to win him over. You trust Regina and Rumple over Emma? Shut up, Henry!

So Emma's big sin is to try to save people doing it alone?  Henry is an idiot, if he spent 5 minutes thinking about what Emma's life had been like before, he would have got why she did what she did.

 

Regina would have kept Violet's heart and killed her when she was done with her.  Rumple would just have killed her without the break-up speech.

 

So far, nothing that Emma has done is anywhere near Regina or Rumple. not to mention she became the Dark One to save Regina.  Trying to save Hook by turning him dark was the act of a desperate woman in love.

Edited November 30, 2015 by statsgirl

[Rumsy4]

Merida literally got sucked into the Dark Curse on her way to get revenge? That was anti-climactic.

 

Is Lancelot a product of collective consciousness? He keeps appearing and disappearing at random. Are we supposed to think he's been in Storybrooke all this time? Never mind--I don't care.

 

Hook reliving his worst moments when he was being reborn was so painful to watch.

 

"Baby Hood" was funny, but a tad misogynistic. It's "Baby Green". ;-p

 

This motherhood redeeming female villains story-lines OUAT likes to do is rather disturbing.

 

Rumple never changed: he still wants Hook to live with the pain of having been defeated by himself. Artificially being given a blank slate did not change the asshole he is at his core. 

[Shanna Marie]

I wonder if maybe part of Hook's quick descent into darkness was because his background more closely aligns with Nimue's in a way that enabled her to get her claws into his psyche better than some other Dark Ones. She was driven by revenge after suffering great loss. Rumple was motivated more by power and not wanting to be weak. Emma was motivated by love and protecting the ones she loved. But Hook's slides into darkness even without the Dark One were about loss similar to what she suffered. The guy whose brother died because their king betrayed them and Pan tricked them and who watched his love's heart be crushed would be somewhat in sync with the woman whose village was destroyed. She would have been able to tap into those feelings and use them to manipulate him. I suppose Clippy Rumple was actually Clippy Nimue, and the first thing she did was urge Hook to get his revenge on Rumple, since she needed Rumple's blood for her scheme to work. We got that quick-cut montage of all the horrible things Rumple did to Hook as he was being turned into the Dark One. He was essentially born with that thought in his brain. We were speculating on whether he would be reliving those events from the Dark One's point of view. It's hard to tell, since they're using the TV trope of showing memories in third-person rather than actually from a person's perspective (and they were using old film clips). But one way or another, he was being forced to relive those experiences.

[Cindy McLennan]

Am I the only one who really liked this episode? There were definitely some issues -- for example, why exactly did Hook have to cast the dark curse? I may have not been paying attention to that.

 

But Hook had magic! I loved that. And I loved his dark pirate costume and the fight on the Jolly Roger and the hair and guyliner. Colin and JMo were just awesome tonight.

 

I'm still hoping that all this is a ruse and Killian is much smarter than he has let on. It's just going to be so much more heartbreaking for puppy dog Killian if it isn't.

 

 

You're not the only one. I'm watching for a second time, now. I think someone already explained this, but if not.. At first, Hook wanted to cast the dark curse, because he wanted to get back to Storybrooke, where Gold is, so he can kill him. But also, Nimue said all the Dark Ones want the same thing, which is to snuff out the light, so I suppose he wants that, too.

I can't decide if it's a ruse or not, nor whether I want it to be one.

 

This episode didn't ruin my enjoyment of or the overall impact of Killian's redemption. I blame the Darkness, and can see where it has warped his perceptions. I think he is that susceptible to the Darkness, yes. The Darkness used him good. I was completely wrong about Rumple talking Hook down from the fight.

 

 

I agree.  Except for when I think it's a ruse. I've been pretty unspoiled. Tonight might change that.

 

The other replies here are helping me understand why I felt a bit "meh" about this episode.  I'm just not satisfied with Hook's journey into the ~dark.  Colin did a fine job, but I got whiplash from the change from regular Hook to Dark!Hook, which wasn't the case for Rumpel or Emma.  Maybe there's some underlying motive, like there was for Dark Emma/the curse ... but as this episode showed, the writers are often not very good at coming up with satisfying explanations for mysteries they've presented (there was no good reason for Emma be to taunting everyone at the beginning of the season like she was really ~dark).

 

I'm also kind of wondering if it was actually Hook appearing as Belle in the break-up scene.

 

I did get a giggle out of "Baby Hood" and "green bean."

 

 

The "Baby Hood" made me snicker. I  also wondered if "Belle" wasn't Belle, but I guess she was. I'm kind of glad she's choosing herself. She always takes him back too quickly and easily. 

 

As for Hook, if this isn't all a ruse (I kind of think it isn't, because he wiped Emma's memories of Camelot), I think he went so dark so quickly, in comparison to Rumple and Emma, because of his history versus their histories.

Rumple had no desire for vengeance when he killed Zoso. He just wanted to protect Bae. It was only once he became the Dark One that the power started corrupting him. Emma took on the darkness to save Regina (and everyone), so her history is basically the same as Rumple's. Neither of them were shown to be really bad people prior to becoming the Dark One. Rumple was a coward. Emma had been a thieving kid, but had straightened up her act after jail.

Killian Jones was a hero, who turned from that path to intentionally seek vengeance, for his brother's death. What started out as vengeance against a corrupt king that sent the Jones brothers on a quest for a genocide poison, turned into general piracy, adultery, bullying, etc. and that was without dark magic corrupting him.

Someone said Killian's resisting-evil muscles should be in better shape. He's really only been resisting it since he fell for Emma. Is that even two years in show time? He gave into evil for a heck of a lot longer, without a magically corrupting force. So the giving-into-evil muscles may still be in decent shape, too. 

In a way, Hook's journey is more like Regina's, I think.

 

The one thing that makes me think this might be a ruse is that Hook healed Gold's foot prior to the duel.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Cindy McLennan

[Shanna Marie]

The one thing that makes me think this might be a ruse is that Hook healed Gold's foot prior to the duel.

And he didn't seem to be sincerely trying to win the duel. He didn't seriously wound Gold, just got a bit of blood. He didn't do any of the things he threatened to do, like cutting off his hand. All this supposedly kicked off with a scheme to get his revenge on Rumple, finally, after all this time. Hook's a hothead. He's not a "I'll leave you alive to suffer" kind of guy, expect possibly for something like a serious maiming that would mean true lifelong suffering. Even if he also had the scheme to bring back the other Dark Ones using Rumple's blood, if he were really all that dark, wouldn't he have killed Rumple first? And there's no way that a much taller man with a much longer reach, who's a much more experienced swordsman, and who is younger and fitter, and who has magical superpowers, wouldn't have easily won that fight if he'd actually tried.

[InsertWordHere]

As for Hook, if this isn't all a ruse (I kind of think it isn't, because he wiped Emma's memories of Camelot), 

But I think he specifically wiped Emma's mind only of the plan to bring the Dark Ones to Storybrooke. Yes, so she couldn't stop him, but also because maybe she would know that bringing the Dark Ones to Storybrooke means they can end the Dark One power once and for all

and Hook has to die to do it which she still wouldn't let happen until he threatens her family

. Or something magic magic handwavy, look! It's the Blue Fairy with a never before mentioned magic flowerpot to contain the darkness!

 

In a way, Hook's journey is more like Regina's, I think.

I think so too and that is why I am leaning towards hate right now, unless it is a ruse. 

[LizaD]

while at the same time pushing away people who could potentially remedy that problem just based on what they COULD do or what COULD happen

Except that's no longer true. We saw her reach out to both Henry and Hook and they both unequivocally rejected DS. Even back before Henry knew about the Violet fiasco he wouldn't even let her touch his hand. She KNEW her parents and Woegina weren't on board to Save!Hook so that wasn't based on a hypothetical. She KNEW that when Hook knows he's the DO he goes bat shit evil. So when was this? None of her actions were based on could'ves but on what happened in Camelot.

If this was still true Emma would've let Hook's ass die. Remember her telling Neal, "I wished you were dead cause I don't want to deal with you?" Yeah exactly that was that Emma. Instead she saved Hook and it blew up in her face spectacularly, proving Merlin, Snowing and Woegina right after all. It also proved that she herself was right. Anytime she opens herself up she gets a smackdown of epic proportions.

They don't care about Hook contrary to what some believe and his getting so-called good writing? Yeah I don't see it and this episode proved it. His "descent" into darkness and the curse casting are laughable and we can sit here and fanwank it all but onscreen they gave us zero reason for the turn that happend in 24hrs max. He went dark because they thought it would be a "cool" twist. End of story. Anything that happens after this episode, including his "redemption" will also be because they'll think it's another cool twist!

Edited November 30, 2015 by LizaD

[KAOS Agent]

What I learned from this episode is that fixing your own mistakes is bad and working alone makes you more evil than mass murder. Also, having a baby fixes everything. I'm not sure that was what they really wanted to say. 

 

I hated what happened in this episode on so many levels, I just can't describe it. Character assassination, whitewashing/handwaving really horrible acts, plot contrivance, torpedoing two ships, destroying familial relationships. Ouch.

 

A few things:

 

- Storybrooke is on a hellmouth. Seriously?

 

- Shut up, Henry! No, really. Shut up.

 

- It's interesting that Emma's family ditched her when she was the one they needed to get the dreamcatchers. You have to work with others, Emma! But suck it, we don't want you now and it's not at all the same that we're refusing to work with you.

 

- All of the horrible things Killian said to Emma are not things that could ever be forgotten between them. Even if the stuff in Storybrooke is a ruse (and I suspect it's not), he meant the stuff he said in Camelot. That a lot of it was true makes it all the more damaging because it's not Darkness lying, it's what he thinks/feels deep inside - sort of an Echo Cave for Dark Ones. 

 

- So proud of Belle. That said, the timing made her look really bad. So Rumpel's finally at a point where he's what she always wanted and she's like see ya. I know this is the way to write a pregnant actress out for a while, but that was quite jarring. I wonder if this might push Rumpel back into the dark again.

 

- Also, Hero!Rumpel telling Hook he wanted him to suffer was not heroic. Shades of the man he really is.  Also, it leads to bad things. Good job, Rumpel!

 

- I'd also like to note that everyone is pro Rumpel now, he's got a white heart and his leg is fixed. So hundreds of years of inflicting misery on everyone and he's rewarded with this? He didn't even work to be a better person. He was just magically gifted with purity. Maybe this is supposed to be a parallel to Hook? Hook is forced into the Darkness and will eventually fight his way out while Rumpel is magically given the light and will revert to the dark.

Edited November 30, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Leia1979]

I spent the first twenty minutes of this episode telling my television that this made no sense. I didn't understand how finding out he'd been turned into a dark one immediately made Hook evil. Once we were finally shown he'd gone pretty dark before losing his memory, it made a lot more sense, but I'd been incorrectly assuming the transformation happened right before returning to Storybrooke.

 

Even so, I don't understand why Emma was still mostly herself for ages while Hook went bad about 3.5 seconds in. I hope there's some actual reason for that, like his soul went to the underworld or his regeneration went really, really wrong. 

 

I found the episode mostly interesting (though I don't care about Belle or Robin Hood), but I kept mistakenly thinking this was the winter finale and was expecting things to wrap up at some point. Still, so much was crammed into this episode that I don't know why the main plot was completely abandoned in the previous episode. Pacing, people!

Edited November 30, 2015 by Leia1979

[kitticup]

Worst episode ever!!!!

Birth was such an awesome episode but this was pure unadulterated crap. It makes Bleeding Through seem like a master piece. I am completely disgusted by the morality of the show and actually have little desire to watch the mid season finale. I was so excited for this episode and my heart was more cruelly crushed than Merlin's.

Hook's actions made no sense at all. Why would he do anything for Clippy Rumple if the smug Rumple is still around? I am disgusted that Rumple gets a complete whitewash and that he is presented as a hero. Sorry no, he's a rat bastard. I hate that they have brought Hook down to a Regina's and Rumple's level. If this isn't a elsborate long con by Hook from the beginning I am done with this show. I am not even sure that will be enough for me to continue with this show.

[mjgchick]

How sick of these writers to keep punishing Emma? The more people she saves/helps out the worse it gets for her it seems. She saved everyone by taking the darkness her reward is having Dark Rumple in her head and watching the man she loves nearly die which forced her to turn him into the thing he hates most, now this mess.

#LeaveEmmaAlone2k16

[Katherine]

This episode made me sad. I really hope Hook has a secret plan to snuff out the darkness instead of the light. When David said something about hoping that Emma's faith in Hook wasn't misplaced, I figured it was building up a big moment where Hook would prove Emma right. I guess that could still happen, but it's not looking good. I think it's more likely that his plan is to snuff out the light but he changes his mind at the last minute. So essentially he would just be cleaning up his own mess, and that's not enough for me.

[Lieutenant]

- All of the horrible things Killian said to Emma are not things that could ever be forgotten between them. Even if the stuff in Storybrooke is a ruse (and I suspect it's not), he meant the stuff he said in Camelot. That a lot of it was true makes it all the more damaging because it's not Darkness lying, it's what he thinks/feels deep inside - sort of an Echo Cave for Dark Ones. 

I think this is what made that "orphan" scene in Storybrooke so painful.  Yes, Killian believes those things deep down, and they are most certainly true.  But the real Killian would have brought those things to Emma's attention is a much more loving and constructive way.  We've seen him do it before when she's being her typical flighty self, avoiding hard decisions, avoiding people, running from uncomfortable situations.  That's actually one of the most refreshing and realistic things about their relationship.  He makes her a better person, even if he has to confront her with some hard truths now and then.  But this time, under the influence of the darkness, there's no filter.  It's not even hard truth, it's truth bomb with a side of shot through the heart.  That was seriously awful to watch, and it will be a very painful thing for both of them to try to recover from.  

[Souris]

Is Lancelot a product of collective consciousness? He keeps appearing and disappearing at random. Are we supposed to think he's been in Storybrooke all this time? Never mind--I don't care.

 

He was apparently outside the curse's purview with his mother. I'm glad he didn't die.

 

I can’t deal with the CS angst/pain at the moment, so I’m fixating on details – such as why the hell would Merlin have created the potion for the Dark Curse in Granny’s? And why would he have left the message telling everyone to contact Nimue? Because there is ZERO logical reason for him to do either of those things, unless he foresaw the path that would ultimately lead to the destruction of the darkness and was doing what needed to be done. And how did DarkHook know that the potion that Merlin had created was the Dark Curse???

 

I hope those things are not simply MASSIVE plot holes stuck in there to move things along because of lazy, contrived writing. But it certainly wouldn’t be the first time with TSTW. If it is just lazy writing, then my brain is offended.

 

If it WILL be explained as something Merlin needed to do, then I think he foresaw Emma killing Killian to end the Darkness for good. He said it was the darkest possibility that he saw for her, and her having to kill her True Love would be the darkest thing she’d have to endure. They alluded to her doing that in the preview. I really hope that it’s Killian who sacrifices himself in the end willingly and he's doing this to goad Emma into HAVING to kill him, because they’ve taken him REALLY dark with this arc and they need to walk it back. But it’s looking more like Emma will sacrifice him at this point to clean up her mess on her own. That's what she feels like she needs to do.

 

Total Buffy & Angel. 

[kili]

Can anybody explain to me why that dumba$$ Merlin was cooking up the dark curse? All he needed was a heart.

[Rumsy4]

Can anybody explain to me why that dumba$$ Merlin was cooking up the dark curse? All he needed was a heart.

Yeah?? Why was he doing that? He really needed to die before he caused even more damage.

[KAOS Agent]

Merlin is Obi Wan Kenobi and his plan was for Darth Killian to strike him down and make him "more powerful than you could possibly imagine." Not that Obi Wan ever became powerful, but let's just apply a Star Wars parallel to it and pretend Merlin isn't the dumbest guy in the world.