S09.E10: Face The Raven

[benteen]

I liked Rigsy in Flatline but he was used as a boring plot device here.  Add him now all of a sudden being a father and that officially ends any chance of him being a companion.

[angora]

Don't know how likely it is, but I'm really hoping this is it for Clara.  Not because I'm desperate to see her go - Clara has worked a lot better for me this season (turns out it helps if the companion a) acts like they actually WANT to be here, and b) acts like they care about the Doctor.  Who knew?)  Rather, I'm just so sick of Moffat writing the big, emotional moments and then immediately taking the wind out of their sails by resetting everything shortly afterwards.  It's like he can't make up his mind on one ending, so he just throws 'em all in.  With Clara, she already had the whole No-Question-About-It-You're-Gonna-Die-If-You-Climb-into-the-Doctor's-Timestream situation in "The Time of the Doctor" (from which the Doctor was able to rescue her Because Reasons,) she broke with the Doctor in "Kill the Moon," had a goodbye-to-the-good-times farewell trip in "Mummy on the Orient Express," said goodbye to the Doctor in "Death in Heaven," had the old-lady dream fakeout in "Last Christmas," had the exterminated-by-Daleks fakeout at the end of "The Magician's Apprentice," and now had an emotional, slow-motion death scene in "Face the Raven" (I know not everyone found it emotional, but that was clearly the show's intention.)  When Moffat keeps writing endings and taking them back, not only does it cheapen the ending he just undermined, but it also makes me automatically less invested in the one he writes next time.  Particularly since there's only one two-part story left this season, to pull a "gotcha" and contrive a way to bring Clara back only to have her exit for good AGAIN two episodes later would be way too much.

 

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to seeing Clara again in some other form in the finale - a flashback, some sort of fake Clara image the bad guys are using to mess with the Doctor, even a hop back in time to see her once more before she died.  As long as whatever Clara we see isn't a continuation of the one who died in "Face the Raven" (additionally, let's NOT have the Doctor breaking any laws of time or trying make any more trips to the "underworld" to save her.)  Something from before, or some sort of trick; that's what I'm prepared to allow.  Just don't cheat, Moffat.  Let it be.

 

And just so I can say something about the rest of the episode:  I liked the bit where the Doctor was complaining about never getting to be the good cop.  Cracked me up.

[Mabinogia]

I have to admit, I laughed my ass off when Clara was told that she voided the contract and wasn't getting saved this time. Can't say I care as it totally serves her right. She was more annoying this episode than ever so they really screwed up the emotional impact of her death. I, like someone upthread said, was yelling "get on with it already" as she had her slow, laborious death scene. I didn't see what she did as remotely heroic since she did it knowing (well, assuming) the Doctor would wisk in at the last minute, save her, and everyone would sing her praises and tell her how brave and good she is. Hubris, thy name is Clara.

 

I only fear this death, like others before it, won't take.

 

Outside if Clara I thought this was a great episode. The refuge street was an interesting idea. I still laugh at the idea of grown ass aliens following someone who looks like a little girl playing dress up. Maisy is just always going to look so very young to me. Not her fault, she did well in the part I just find it visually funny. Capaldi was, as always, aces, I can't wait to see him without that albatross Clara dragging him down. I'm actually finally excited about next week!!!! I can almost guarantee that will be my favorite 12 ep yet.

 

Anyway, yay to Clara finally getting herself killed. Best thing she's done since 12 showed up at least.

[patchwork]

Sadly Doctor Who is no longer clickbait for me so I'm completely unspoiled but this death feels no more real than the one at the beginning of the season. If this is really it then I'm disappointed and I really wish the Wendy ending had stuck and in Face The Raven the new companion died, if the Doctor being angry at Ashildr and her doing whatever it was to protect Trap Street is required for the bigger plot.

 

I'm not even a Clara fan but as companion exits go this is a whole lot less epic than any of the modern ones have had. Martha's has no drama but it's after she spent a year engineering the Master's defeat thus saving the world. But in this mostly filler episode Clara is just being her obnoxious self then she apparently dies.

 

Without even a voiceover.

 

I just can't  buy it.   

Edited November 22, 2015 by patchwork

[SourK]

I don't hate Clara, but I hope she stays dead. Partly just because the character has been around too long and partly because this was a good ending for her that made sense with what we've been shown up to now. I was completely unspoiled for this but, even toward the end of last season I saw foreshadowing that she would be the first long-term companion to actually die rather than leaving in some other way, and this season they piled on the warnings even more. I would have been disappointed if it hadn't happened after all that -- and I was decently surprised that she died before the finale.

 

For what it's worth, I did get really emotional when she died. Maybe because I do see it as a sense-making part of her character arc, maybe because I liked her better once her deathwish gave her a personality again, and maybe because I just like big, melodramatic moments. The fact that her death was kind of an accident because she made a stupid, impulsive decision, not understanding what the consequence would be -- for me that doesn't cheapen it. It adds a different, maybe more realistic flavor to the whole thing.

 

That said, I have a whole separate beef with the over-arching theme of how every woman who travels with the Doctor is eventually destroyed in some way -- which is another reason I wish Missy would come back, because at least she won't be slowly broken down by him. Oh, my heart -- if we could maybe have half a season where the two of them go on Time Lord adventures together before the next companion comes. That would make me so happy.

 

Is this the first companion to die in the New Who? Rose was in another universe/dimension, Martha walked away, Donna had her memories wiped, Rory and Amy got stuck in a time locked area of New York. I hate that she died, I hate that Danny died. I guess that spaceman from the future will not exist. Sigh.

 

I think she's the first major companion to die in the new show. I seem to remember Kylie Minogue going into some flames on a forklift, but I don't really count her because she was some random who was there for one episode to kind of fake us out.

 

Rather, I'm just so sick of Moffat writing the big, emotional moments and then immediately taking the wind out of their sails by resetting everything shortly afterwards.  It's like he can't make up his mind on one ending, so he just throws 'em all in.  With Clara, she already had the whole No-Question-About-It-You're-Gonna-Die-If-You-Climb-into-the-Doctor's-Timestream situation in "The Time of the Doctor" (from which the Doctor was able to rescue her Because Reasons,)...

 

I agree that dying when she jumped into the timestream would have been the best ending for Clara, and tied everything up a lot better, but I'm okay with this ending, too. I actually liked Clara best the very first time we saw her, when she was a Dalek -- that's still the Clara story that resonates with me the most.

[Ringthane]

I did like the Doctor's line about "The Universe seems a lot smaller if I'm angry at you".  Mayor McMe certainly understood what he meant, just like back in "The Woman who Lived", when he told her if she killed someone, she'd make an enemy of him.  And it was interesting that this Doctor seems to have more Warrior than Doctor in him, just like John Hurt's incarnation.  Wonder if that's leading up to anything.

[Llywela]

even toward the end of last season I saw foreshadowing that she would be the first long-term companion to actually die rather than leaving in some other way,

I think she's the first major companion to die in the new show.

I'm glad you added that 'new show' rider later, because of course Clara isn't the first proper companion to die (always supposing she even stays dead, and it makes me sad that the show has reached the point where we can't trust anything that happens to be real or to stay happened). She's the first New Who companion to die, but not the first overall. Way back in the '60s, Katarina and Sara Kingdom both died in the same epic adventure, and in the '80s, of course there was Adric, who got blown up by the Cybermen. As underplayed as they were, I prefer those deaths - they had real shock value because they weren't telegraphed beforehand and there was no possibility of undoing them. Dead meant dead, in those days.

 

 

I have a whole separate beef with the over-arching theme of how every woman who travels with the Doctor is eventually destroyed in some way

Yeah, New Who does have a real thing about wanting both us and the Doctor to believe that he inevitably destroys the life of everyone he cares about. I'm not sure where this has come from, other than a very modern belief that neverending angst and melodrama make for 'deep and meaningful' telly. I'm more than ready for a return to a more classic approach, where companions just moved on after a while, because it was time and they had lives of their own to be getting on with elsewhere. Even without killing companions outright, New Who has become obsessed with tragedy as the only possible means of writing companions out.

Edited November 22, 2015 by Llywela

[Starchild]

I really really miss how in the original series we got companions that weren't from contemporary Earth.

 

Whatever the species, race or original time period of the next companion, is there anyone here willing to bet against it being a heterosexual twenty-something female?

 

So... are the street people going to be upset when they find out Mayor Me lied to them about the murder?  Did she explain what she got out of this deal to turn over the doctor?

She said the Quantum thingie needed a soul at the end of it all. I get the impression she was going to sacrifice herself. Perhaps she saw this as a way to end her interminable existence without actually committing suicide.

[Llywela]

Whatever the species, race or original time period of the next companion, is there anyone here willing to bet against it being a heterosexual twenty-something female?

From contemporary Earth, of course.

 

A new companion from a different era or different planet would be a fantastic opportunity to tell an actual character story, so it will inevitably be another contemporary Earth girl, because current Doctor Who prefers to use characters to play out crazy plots rather than using plots to tell character stories.

[John Potts]

Is there some reason why Clara couldn't pass on her death sentence the way Rigsy did? OK, she would have to pass it on to a willing victim (I was actually expecting either the Doctor or Ashildr to take the curse on themselves - the Doctor because the curse COULDN'T fall on him (not just for meta reasons, but somebody wants the Doctor alive); Ashildr because she just wants to die (maybe)). You could even have the old woman whose husband was executed at the start take it on because she couldn't bear to live without her husband.

I'm not especially anti-Clara, but I did like the fact that she took on a death sentence... and it was actually carried out. Or as Jeff Alexander puts it (in the Recap): that's why you never take on someone else's quasi-paranormal death sentence unless you're sure you understand the rules. But like Agnes Bean, I don't see why every Companion departure has to be some AMAZINGLY TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCE and Companions can't just move on - not without tears, perhaps, but because they've just decided it was time to do something else. And like Lantern7, I remember fondly Adric's departure (another Companion who had many people - but not me - going "And don't let the Tardis door hit you in the butt on the way out!") because his death actually meant something - Adric died and his fellow Companions actually cared, the Doctor was upset but didn't break the laws of Time to bring him back, because there were some things he just couldn't do. But I can't see that happening.

 

tankgirl73  And is Douglas Adams' estate going to sue over their use of the Somebody Else's Problem field? ;)

 

He was a writer on Dr Who in the 80s - maybe he introduced the thing!

Edited November 22, 2015 by John Potts

[Llywela]

He was a writer on Dr Who in the 80s - maybe he introduced the thing!

Just to be pedantic, it was the '70s. :D I don't think he ever used that term in Doctor Who, though - it derives from Hitchhiker's, I believe.

[catrox14]

Who are we kidding....Clara is the hybrid, lol. She is the final villain. That would b hilarious.

NOOOOO! I kind of hate you a little bit because this is totally plausible and I would not put it past Moffat.

Thanks for harshing my mellow. :-\

Edited November 22, 2015 by catrox14

[cardigirl]

I loved Doctor Who when Matt Smith came on. I loved the story arc for Amy (and Rory) and the history building that seemed to be going on during that time. There was less of that in the second series, and even less in Matt's last series, but I stuck around for the possibility of an arc. Then last season there was Clara and Danny Pink and I began to be invested in a story arc again. Foolish me. This season, nada. While I love Peter Capaldi, he has not had a story line that I care about. Last season there were four episodes that I thought were outstanding, but none of those has been referenced this season.

This episode was okay...a possibility of some real history building for the Whoverse, but I find I am not as invested.

I'll still watch the final episodes and the Christmas special. And then...I guess I'll have to wait and see. There is a possibility of no new Who in 2016 maybe I'll take that time off from rewatching and when/if Doctor Who returns, I'll have more of an appetite for it.

[John Potts]

Llywela Just to be pedantic, it was the '70s

 

 

Really? So City of Death was from when I was under 8? I'm surprised I remember it that well then (and NEVER be afraid to be pedantic!). And while I realise the "Someone Else's Problem Field" is from Hitchhikers, it would explain a lot about how the Tardis "works" even if it wasn't made explicit until the revival.

[elle]

Does this mean that Clara has now joined the ranks of the nethersphere cybermen, resulting in a reunion with Danny?  Since she saw him when he delivered the young boy to her instead of using the pass himself, he is still out there somewhere, right?

 

 Rather, I'm just so sick of Moffat writing the big, emotional moments and then immediately taking the wind out of their sails by resetting everything shortly afterwards.  It's like he can't make up his mind on one ending, so he just throws 'em all in. 

Me too!!!!

 

 

I agree that dying when she jumped into the timestream would have been the best ending for Clara, and tied everything up a lot better, but I'm okay with this ending, too. I actually liked Clara best the very first time we saw her, when she was a Dalek -- that's still the Clara story that resonates with me the most.

Yes!

 

And it was interesting that this Doctor seems to have more Warrior than Doctor in him, just like John Hurt's incarnation.  Wonder if that's leading up to anything.

This is why 12 has been reminding me of 9.   11 is the only one to remember that he *did not* blow up Gallifrey, so that guilt should not be there.  Is 12's angst a result of the unnecessary centuries long war on Trenzalore?  Where is this "rescue" of his life by Clara that is mentioned so often - as in *I* did not kill you because of my moral standards and therefore saved you, *She* did.

 

I am not looking forward to next week's angst fest.  As much as I love me a Dalek, I will be really disappointed if they are the "They" Ashlidr spoke of.

 

side note: I think the "post credits scene" confusion came about because, at least here, that scene with Riggsy and the Tardis was shown before the previews for next week, but before the actual credits (which these days so often because a small box off to the side while the opening credits of the next show are run in a slightly larger box)

 

eta:

I loved Doctor Who when Matt Smith came on. I loved the story arc for Amy (and Rory) and the history building that seemed to be going on during that time.

Oh me too, cardigirl!  How I do miss Eleven!

Edited November 22, 2015 by elle

[truther]

Oh is THAT where they knew him from -- that episode with the 2-dimensional aliens? I vaguely recollect that story and only because I caught a few minutes of it while I was channel surfing last week. Was anyone else saying "Who the hell IS this guy?" through the whole episode?

 

 

 

You weren't the only one -- I had no idea who he was, or that his wife/girlfriend was pregnant in the episode he was in, so I was not really impressed by his inclusion like he was such a close personal friend of Clara.

 

I thought the whole episode was kind of underwhelming story-wise -- though Capaldi did a really good job with what he was given.

Clara's dead -- meh. Don't really care.

 

How did Ashildr create this alley hidden from the rest of London ?  Where did the tech come from because I doubt she invented it with her 1890s knowledge ? Who created the telepathic street lamps that hid everyone's actual appearance ? Why would all these aliens have just given up doing war-like alien stuff ?  The refugees from Janus I understand, but the Cyberman -- WTF ?  Where did Ashilder get the quantum shade from ?  Was it the aliens that were making her set the trap for The Doctor ?  Somebody else ?

 

 

 

I think they missed an opportunity. It was a good way to end her story, but it didn't have the gravitas it needed IMO because they didn't tie it in to the rest of her life. It was only tied in to her behaviour this season -- becoming more reckless and doctor-like. But why did she become like that in the first place? She didn't used to be like that, so what changed? "Maybe this is what I want," she says -- maybe she had some kind of deathwish. But why?

 

These all tie together for me.  I had no idea who Rigsy was until I came here after the episode.  I'd forgotten about him completely.  He's a one-off character, from a previous season, that nobody's ever mentioned again and yet suddenly he's important enough that Clara has given him the Doctor's number and the viewers are supposed to remember all about him.  (I think there was a line about trains or something when 12 first got to his house but even that went over my head and, besides, it was delivered in one of Capaldi's manic mutterings where he says like 3 or 4 things quickly and in a strong Scottish accent and I miss it.)

 

Likewise, the trap street was a cool idea but made no sense in execution.  

 

And to continue with the theme, it says a lot that virtually all the comments on here regarding Clara's death are either of a "good riddance" or a "made no sense" variety.  Whatever death wish they were trying to show just didn't work.  One example I haven't yet seen mentioned was when she was dangling out of the Tardis over London, laughing happily at the fact that she was THIS CLOSE to falling to her death.  Why wasn't she secured safely?  Why didn't anyone help her?  WTF?!?

[Triskan]

which is another reason I wish Missy would come back, because at least she won't be slowly broken down by him. Oh, my heart -- if we could maybe have half a season where the two of them go on Time Lord adventures together before the next companion comes. That would make me so happy.

 

 

I'd love that as well !

 

I think my main (and of only a few in the end, that season was awesome !) disapointment with series 9 is the underuse of Missy.

 

I dont know what gave me the wrong idea that she'd be more present this run (maybe misunderstood hints from interviews and promos) but I expected a far greater presence from her this season. I hope she'll reappear in the finale !

 

I dont think we'll be getting Doctor / Missy adventures (I think Moffat will kick off series 10 with a brand new companion directly), but I really wish to see more of her in times to come !

 

On a totally different topic, I had no problem remembering who Rigsy was because Flatline is my favourite episode of last series (and I've followed the whole marketing campaign of this season, so I knew quite early he'd be back).

Edited November 22, 2015 by Triskan

[jaytee1812]

I didn't know Rigsy but I didn't see Flatline, so that makes sense. Although that didn't bother me. Dramas have people pop up all the time who suddenly mean something to the protagonist, and it's usually a death sentence.

I liked Clara's death, it made sense with the risks she was taking, plus the whole acting like the doctor thing.

[scifinerd]

What if the end of 'The Zygon Inversion' happens after this episode?

 

[Tardis]

CLARA: So, you must have thought I was dead for a while?
DOCTOR: Yeah.
CLARA: How was that?
DOCTOR: Longest month of my life.
CLARA: It could only have been five minutes.
DOCTOR: I'll be the judge of time.
(He pulls the lever and the Tardis dematerialises.)

[penguinnj]

Rewatched and still wasn't moved to tears.  And I was inconsolable when Donna got her memory erased and the Ponds left- shed a few tears for Rose when she was on the beach and was actually rather happy for Martha- but this just didn't do it for me.  And I should point out that I was relatively new to Who when I saw Angels Take Manhattan- Karen Gillan just killed that scene.  I really do think the length of the goodbye speech was a problem as others have pointed out.  

But I also think I have pinpointed the moment Clara lost me as a fan and it was when she told the Doctor to "do as you are told."  Here's hoping the next companion is less doctor like.

Edited November 24, 2015 by penguinnj

[benteen]

I didn't know Rigsy but I didn't see Flatline, so that makes sense. Although that didn't bother me. Dramas have people pop up all the time who suddenly mean something to the protagonist, and it's usually a death sentence.

I liked Clara's death, it made sense with the risks she was taking, plus the whole acting like the doctor thing.

 

To me, Flatline was the best episode of Series 8 and the best episode of Capaldi's run so far.

 

Clara couldn't pass on her death sentence because it could only passed once.  When Rigsy passed it off to her, the sentence couldn't be transferred again.

[Llywela]

Really? So City of Death was from when I was under 8? I'm surprised I remember it that well then (and NEVER be afraid to be pedantic!). And while I realise the "Someone Else's Problem Field" is from Hitchhikers, it would explain a lot about how the Tardis "works" even if it wasn't made explicit until the revival.

Very late '70s - City of Death aired in 1979, which was the year Douglas Adams served as script editor for Doctor Who - the unfinished serial Shada (which he later retooled as Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency) was his swansong, and by the time 1980 rolled around he was gone and Christopher Bidmead had taken over. I really shouldn't know this stuff...

[Pattycake2]

Yeah, Clara turned into an adrenaline junkie, but this was a stinky way to go based on all the other companions' departures. Of course, there is always the chance her body was placed in the storage thingy by Asildur and that when the Doctor defeats the entity who set up the whole thing, he'll wrangle her soul back.

[catrox14]

 

One example I haven't yet seen mentioned was when she was dangling out of the Tardis over London, laughing happily at the fact that she was THIS CLOSE to falling to her death.  Why wasn't she secured safely?  Why didn't anyone help her?  WTF?!?

 

I did not understand that at all. But introspect and combined with another commenter here suggesting that it was hybrid!Clara that died, the behavior of hanging out of the TARDIS could be a clue that it was hybrid!Clara. I mean Clara is reckless but nah, I don't see her hanging out of the TARDIS like that.

[Terrafamilia]

At least the Doctor was properly dressed.

[foreverevolving]

I truly hate Twleve/Clara probably maybe even more than I hated Ten/Rose.

Naaa, nothing can be worse than Ten/Rose.

 

I felt slightly sad and moved when Clara died, but I think that had more to do with the doctor.

I realized earlier this season that I was absolutely ready to say goodbye to Clara so i'm excited moving forward. Next week looks interesting.

[elle]

I truly hate Twleve/Clara probably maybe even more than I hated Ten/Rose.

Naaa, nothing can be worse than Ten/Rose.

Handy Ten and Rose?

 

"Face the Raven" - Twelve had a lot of nerve or vanity to lecture Ashildr after what happened to Clara.  While I think that Ashildr is one to own her own decisions, she was put in this situation by The Doctor.  We had this discussion earlier in the forum for "The Woman who Lived", that leaving her on her own could/would come back to haunt him.  I understand that the writer wanted to show how regretful she was that it was Clara who died, when she had carefully planned to not have that happen.  I do wish she could have said something to Twelve about the consequences of his decisions.

 

I did like that she got in one zinger about the Zygons!

 

Is this the first time that the key to the Tardis has fallen into unfriendly hands, besides the Angels?

Edited November 22, 2015 by elle

[Captain Carrot]

I can't help but think of the dalek episodes. It was mentioned multiple times that daleks had nanites in them that made it hard to kill them. And Clara was exposed to these nanites. Per every science fiction story I've ever seen those nanites are still inside her. So, I have my doubts about how permanent her death is.

[Pattycake2]

Maybe Ashildr still can have feelings of remorse and she barters to get Clara's soul back.  Maybe.

[tankgirl73]

    So... are the street people going to be upset when they find out Mayor Me lied to them about the murder?  Did she explain what she got out of this deal to turn over the doctor?

She said the Quantum thingie needed a soul at the end of it all. I get the impression she was going to sacrifice herself. Perhaps she saw this as a way to end her interminable existence without actually committing suicide.

That's the deal with the quantum shade -- I was asking about her deal with whoever "they" are that she trapped the doctor for and teleported him off to. I can't recall if she explained why she made that deal in the first place.

[Starchild]

To protect the hidden street and its people, IIRC.

[Kromm]

Well, I'll go against the tide here and say that I will miss Clara. I always liked her, and I want to like Doctor 12 but I wish they had been given better stories this season. Or at least, I wish the sound was better this series. I have to turn my tv up really loud to hear a lot of the dialogue.

Is this the first companion to die in the New Who? Rose was in another universe/dimension, Martha walked away, Donna had her memories wiped, Rory and Amy got stuck in a time locked area of New York. I hate that she died, I hate that Danny died. I guess that spaceman from the future will not exist. Sigh.

Is there only one more episode?

I miss the potential of Clara and not the execution (no pun intended). Unlike many I'm not happy she's dead--but mostly because even though a Companion actually dying hasn't been done in a very long time, the "grieving Doctor" beats we're going to get HAVE been done to death. So I can't say I feel nothing, as some have said. I instead feel annoyed. I mean there's the potential for The Doctor to react differently to a Companion dying through their own stupidity... but that doesn't change the fact that a.) it won't happen and b.) it reinforces the whole angst about why he'd ever even bother to HAVE Companions, if they just leave (through intent or death) and send him into a horrible tailspin. Honestly, because Amy and Rory's leaving was so angst ridden it really WAS time to change things up and have a gentle leavetaking. No matter how much some people just wanted Clara to pay for being annoying.  Not to save or reward Clara, who hasn't earned that, but so that the NEXT Companion could be one set up with a different paradigm other than as a band-aid for The Doctor's damaged psyche. 

 

Getting back to the messed up/lost potential of Clara, it WAS that she talked back to The Doctor more than any other recent Companion. That smart-assery could have worked so much better if the scripts had been consistent with the rest of Clara's characterization. But she was instead all the hell over the place.

[morgankobi]

When the first guy was due to die-by-raven, the assistant guy with the glasses mumbled that he shouldn't run and looked disappointed when he did. At the time, I thought that was going to be important, but Clara had the awareness and time to scream (silently to us), where he did not. It seems his death was less painful than hers. So now I figure that whole exchange was just to make Clara seem more heroic! in her death. Ugh. 

Edited November 23, 2015 by morgankobi

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Ranting And Raven
Doctor Who's Clara decides that having all the facts before taking the place of a condemned man is for the birds.

[darkestboy]

I really loved this one. The murder plot prior to be revealed as false might not have made sense but it was a neat to reintroduce both Rigsy and Ashildr.

 

The stuff with the raven had its moments, loved the trap street concept.

 

Rigsy was great but Ashildr dominated more as a character though.

 

Clara's death if it was that was great. Beautiful acting from Coleman and Capaldi there.

 

Dark Doctor is a scary one, 9/10

[marketdoctor]

 

New Who has become obsessed with tragedy as the only possible means of writing companions out.

 

This is one of the things that bothered me most.  She could have had a less tragic ending (see Sarah Jane Smith, who crossed between old and new Who), but there were other things that bothered me.  It was such a weird and senseless death, and such a reckless thing to do when they still had half an hour to figure something else out.  The Doctor's slow-building rage rang true; the rest did not.

 

The Trap Street was cool (encyclopedias did that too, especially pre-Wikipedia), and the idea that they're real was awesome.  I thought they'd go to more of a Neverwhere place (with technology instead of magic, sure).  Even the advanced telepathic lights didn't bother me, because aliens might share alien tech. if it's in their self-interest to do so.  It brought up another question, though:

 

Why was everyone so cool about having a Cyberman just wandering around?  I get it, refugee Cyberman, maybe he's better than most, etc., but still...it was a big leap of faith in the security of the system.

 

I also didn't like Me giving that vow of protection and then not being able to keep it.

 

But mostly I'm going to miss Clara--maybe because of what Jenna Coleman did with the character.  Opinions differ, but I'll miss her.

[Fat Elvis 007]

I don't hate Clara, but I'm glad she's gone. I think she took a lot of hate for things that were really the fault of the Doctor--I'd talk back to him too if he were constantly criticizing my weight and appearance, and basically being a jerk to everyone. And her lying, manipulation and adrenaline-seeking last year--gee, where have we seen that before? I really didn't like Clara last year but it bothered me that the Doctor seemed to be escaping criticism for bringing out the worst in her.

Both 12 and Clara were MUCH improved this season. Clara still had her desire to be the Doctor but honestly, that was the most interesting thing about her, and didn't irritate me this season. I still never really connected with her character the way I did previous companions and I'm looking forward to a new one.

[Gentian root]

Tell me if I missed a reason why not, but isn't there a possibility of the Doctor meeting another Clara "splinter?"  Could this be the source of the diner waitress photo?

[Cirien]

^This^.

 

The Doctor meeting another Clara Splinter would be a wonderful and fitting end to her story. and if they did want to bring back JLC for a special it could be a way to do it. Not saying they would but it would be do able.

[truther]

I don't hate Clara, but I'm glad she's gone . . . . I really didn't like Clara last year but it bothered me that the Doctor seemed to be escaping criticism for bringing out the worst in her.

Both 12 and Clara were MUCH improved this season . . . . I still never really connected with her character the way I did previous companions and I'm looking forward to a new one.

 

 

The Doctor meeting another Clara Splinter would be a wonderful and fitting end to her story. and if they did want to bring back JLC for a special it could be a way to do it. Not saying they would but it would be do able.

I really hope Clara goes away for good.  Rather than the Doctor bringing out the worst in her, I think Clara brings out the worst in the show.  She (and, to a lesser extent, 12 himself) often act merely as ciphers for whatever emotions the show wants to create.  Rather than take the time to weave together a coherent character, the show just has Clara flit from one behavior pattern to another to provide whatever narrative the show is going for.  If they want conflict, for example, then she gets mad about something.  And so on.  I never got comfortable with Clara the character beyond that she'd be annoying.  

 

That stayed true right up to the end of this episode, where Clara sort of just settled on a death wish and then acted on it, for some reason that never quite made sense (to me).  Just as Rigsy was a plot device who didn't really add anything to the story, so too Clara was herself just a big, giant plot device that changed constantly from episode to episode.  I don't think the show would benefit from her coming back.  She's already done more than enough.

[alias1]

But, truther, everything Moffat has done has been a plot device.

[MarkHB]

I'm glad you added that 'new show' rider later, because of course Clara isn't the first proper companion to die (always supposing she even stays dead, and it makes me sad that the show has reached the point where we can't trust anything that happens to be real or to stay happened). She's the first New Who companion to die, but not the first overall. Way back in the '60s, Katarina and Sara Kingdom both died in the same epic adventure, and in the '80s, of course there was Adric, who got blown up by the Cybermen. As underplayed as they were, I prefer those deaths - they had real shock value because they weren't telegraphed beforehand and there was no possibility of undoing them. Dead meant dead, in those days.

I'm curious, how did you encounter the deaths of Katarina and Sara Kingdom... novelization or audio?  Because The Daleks' Masterplan is still largely missing AFAIK.

 

I can't help but think of the dalek episodes. It was mentioned multiple times that daleks had nanites in them that made it hard to kill them. And Clara was exposed to these nanites. Per every science fiction story I've ever seen those nanites are still inside her. So, I have my doubts about how permanent her death is.

 

Sleep Sand-Nanite War?

 

One thing about this season that struck me was that, since it was announced ahead that Clara would be leaving sometime before the end, they could actually play with "almost" deaths that might or might not be "it".  I wonder if that was why they brought her back (besides Jenna likes to be able to pay for food and housing)... so they could work with the suspense as we didn't know when, exactly, her curtain could finally drop.

[alias1]

Capaldi has really grown on me as the Doctor.  He was terrific in this episode.  I don't know if Clara's death is permanent or not (given this is Moffat's show) but I believe that this Doctor will not have the hang dog look that David Tennant had when Rose went away (and Doctor 10 is still my favorite, so I never had a problem with that, either).  But Capaldi's sadness and controlled rage will be quite different, I think.  I'm looking forward to whatever his next plan is.  He is The Doctor.  He owns this role now.

[Llywela]

I'm curious, how did you encounter the deaths of Katarina and Sara Kingdom... novelization or audio?  Because The Daleks' Masterplan is still largely missing AFAIK.

Both. I've watched recons for all the missing episodes of the serial and have also read the novelisation (split into two books for length), which is beautifully written - one of my favourite DW novelisations that I've read (so far - haven't got through them all). In both formats, the two deaths pack a real punch.

[Commando Cody]

I never trust anyone's death in a two part episode if they die in part one. Clara's demise has come and gone so many times, that her real death is kind of like crying wolf now. I never liked her from the start. I think that is the reason she won't go away. Either that or Moffat is totally in love with her and wants to keep her around. 

[elle]

 

Either that or Moffat is totally in love with her and wants to keep her around.

For Stargate:SG1 fans -- I read this and really heard in my head Col. O'Neill's (Richard Dean Anderson) oft-said snarky reply Ya Think?

 

Sleep Sand-Nanite War?

If they shrunk it down so we could see the sleep sand and nanites, maybe.  But how do the Vasta Nerada fit in the scheme?

 

A quote from the "Den of Geek" review

Here, then, is the initial mystery that, on another day, may have fuelled an episode in its entirety. If we were back in the four-part story days, the search for the trap street would have comfortably eaten up part one. It’s a lovely idea for an episode, a street that’s hidden, that can’t be found on regulation London maps.

The more I read here and the more I think about it, it really is too bad that this episode could not have been explored in more depth - the street, how Ashildr got there, what deal did she make and with whom - I wonder if someone out there would go about fleshing out the story in a novelization.

[Daisy]

All I have have to say is if Moffat "Just This Once, Rose, Everybody Lives!" this   - I'll be mad. I might even stop watching Who. 

I'm glad that Clara died (I mean I hate her) but as a story-telling view, it's how she died. Rose "died" because she didn't want to leave the Doctor, but was actually trying to save the world. Donna "died" due to circumstances thrust on her . Amy "died" because she wanted to be with her husband who always felt that she loved the Doctor a bit more (and Rory "died" because he was with his wife probably doing adventures he'd probably wouldn't chose for himself'). 

All of them at certain aspects always felt they were "Doctor-esque". they all had that swagger of "I'm the Doctor - I'm so awesome - but ultimately they knew they weren't the Doctor,  and the Doctor had to save them." Clara in my mind felt she was very much like the Doctor  ,  thinking like him acting like him -and it caused her death . Which is a good angle, I feel.

[Kromm]

Tell me if I missed a reason why not, but isn't there a possibility of the Doctor meeting another Clara "splinter?"  Could this be the source of the diner waitress photo?

I've never really "gotten" the explanations of the splinters, why they existed, and more importantly why they don't anymore. None of it ever made any sense, nor did the end product of Clara we wound up with not having any of that retained. 

 

Yes, it always kind of made me think that maybe she was just another splinter that stuck with him rather than just wandering around his outskirts (and isn't there a theme there with Ashildr apparently doing the same thing?). Really the ONLY way I'm going to respect this storyline is if they've pulled a fast one on us and that's the case. NOT because I think Clara deserves to stay, come back, live, whatever, but because what they did landed with such a thud for me, and spun into the even more thudworthy "Doctor Grieving" bullshit. 

 

I'd play out the remaining episodes of this series/season and in the end of them reveal a fast one has been pulled on both us and The Doctor. In fact, I'd argue that the Clara who died is not only a splinter, but that we've seen SEVERAL splinters go by during her run, who may have croaked off-screen and been replaced. There are a number of points that could have happened at. THEN I'd give Clara the gentle heave-ho in the very last episode, that her mission was either no longer necessary, or no longer possible, and that whatever Clara(s) were left over from the splinters now had no place with The Doctor anymore. Don't make it a tragedy, but also don't make it cloying. I mean I know people hated "The Impossible Girl", but honestly in my opinion that ended so haphazardly, and if you MUST go with the "every companion is special" cliche, then go full tilt/balls to the wall with it and don't be so inconsistent. Because that's why Clara fell apart as a Companion--the inconsistency. If Impossible Girl and being splintered made her special, then the way it just got abandoned and soft-rebooted was the main annoyance.

[truther]

In fact, I'd argue that the Clara who died is not only a splinter, but that we've seen SEVERAL splinters go by during her run, who may have croaked off-screen and been replaced. There are a number of points that could have happened at. 

Now that's a cool idea.  

[Kromm]

Now that's a cool idea.  

See it would be amusing if this was the case, because you could have a big reveal of the places it happened.  Clearly there were close calls that happened on-screen that it can't be applied to, and they'd also have to establish exactly how much each new Clara knew not only about the former one, but also her purpose there, but the flip side is that it could be used to explain why she was so reckless at times (and maybe to a degree even why her personality bounced around a bit). I'm not sure how you fit this in with the dead sweetheart storyline and her walking away from The Doctor at the time, but that all fits together so badly anyway with the rest of her character.