S02.E07: 207

[Tikichick]

IMO if Scotty did indeed say "that's our baby" it wasn't Allison's baby, or even a literal infant.  It could have been in reference to the Lobster Roll, Allison's house or something else.  I think so far the show is yanking the audience's chain about who the father of Allison's baby is.

 

This episode was largely misdirection according to my theory of who killed Scotty.

 

The possible difference between Allison's house and Helen's is Helen's house is owned by the trust, not Helen personally, and therefore there is no way it can be considered a marital asset.  The trust is likely written to provide for Helen and possibly the children, but Noah is highly doubtful as a beneficiary of the trust.  I suspect the trust has provided Helen the ability to run her own store, which is also probably a trust asset.  I don't really know how the laws of NY would treat Allison's house.  

 

Noah and Allison's apartment was a stunning departure from every other residence in the series, and very much a departure from every place Noah and Allison have spent time together.  I took the cold sterility to be very telling, along with the out of place oddity of the girls' room.  I couldn't figure out from what Allison said to her mother if Noah decided on the paint job or Allison did -- and what it meant based on who picked it out.  The situation with the nursery and Noah's office was also very meaningful.  Overall it seemed the apartment was telegraphing Allison to take her baby and leave, they don't belong there.

[preeya]

Trying to clarify a few things:

• Helen and Gottlief paid Oscar $100,000 for the video from the security camera (?) that showed Scotty and Alison having a "heated" discussion.
• Oscar also happened to overhear this heated discussion which included Scotty making the "that's our baby" comment.
• This discussion happened at Cole's wedding? So a few months after the events that we saw in last night's episode?
• Presumably, sometime after this discussion, Scotty is killed in a hit and run.

 

With that in mind, Noah's entire defense rests on not just the tape itself but what Oscar overheard. The tape in and of itself proves little. Scotty and Alison could have been arguing about the choice of entrees at the wedding reception. All of this strikes me as a little too convenient, especially because we are relying on Oscar  - a character with a possible desire for vengeance - for the information.

 

Oscar's information would seem to implicate Alison as the killer. If so, then Noah is covering for her. I'm not convinced that this evidence entirely eliminates Noah as the killer. Suppose that Alison confessed to Noah after the conversation with Scotty. Isn't it possible that Noah may have killed Scotty to keep him quiet, particularly if Scotty attempted to blackmail Alison?

If Oscar overheard the conversation between Scotty & Alison, wouldn't that be considered hearsay and not be admissible at trial?

[TVForever]

I didn't think of that but it makes sense.  He's always after Cole to help out "our family." 

 

It seems like everyone is miserable on this show.  Noah was as unlikable as ever. 

        

       Actually, Noah is even more unlikable than ever. I didn't think it was possible, but every episode he just sinks lower.

[Texasmom1970]

I hope what's her realky does love Cole and not just using him. I would like to see him find someone who does love him.

Loved seeing Whitney kiss him on the cheek in front if her Dad. I can't stand Noah so a y thing that makes him even wince makes me happy.

[lovinbob]

"That's our baby."  

 

Scotty -- who also assumed that Alison's house was "ours"  -- believed Cole was the father of Alison's daughter, and that the child broke the Lockhart curse.

 

I know I shouldn't be looking for clear logic here, but a newborn, or 18-month-old, or whatever Alison's baby is, doesn't defy the curse more than Gabriel did. If they are cursed this baby proves nothing. (I can't believe I just engaged in curse logic.)

As for Alison's POV, man, what a miserable existence. I think maybe for the first time I genuinely felt bad for her. Noah couldn't even look convincingly happy listening to his kid's heartbeat. Eden was a total nightmare. Max was also throwing some digs left and right and things were majorly and slightly strained respectively with Athena and Jane because of the obvious class issues/money tension.

 

It was so gratifying though to hear the characters finally break the fourth wall in a way and actually voice the differences between people's memories/perspectives in both halves of the narrative. I'd love to see more of that happening.

Agreed on both counts. What a miserable life Alison has right now -- she sees Noah as a total prick, yet she is giving up everything for him. So sad. And yeah, that was a little meta but I appreciated it.

 

C'mon with that apartment.  I know New York real estate very well and Noah selling one successful book & Allison selling her cottage-by-the-sea in Montauk (which she has to split in some way with Cole) ain't gonna get that place.  No.  Freakin'.  Way.  Pretty incredible place, but they went a bit overboard with this, cuz I didn't believe it.

Didn't she say Max was helping them? If not, I agree--there is definitely something fishy about that joint.

 

What's with this business of the Lockharts' being Catholic? Normally, I wouldn't think anything of a mention of a family's religion, but it seemed to me that the writers REALLY wanted us to notice it. In the course of a few minutes at Thanksgiving dinner, the sister-in-law drops a mention of having had a Mass for her lost baby, there's a mention of Father so-and-so and then the family pointedly prays the Catholic version of the Our Father at dinner (Catholic version ends at "deliver us from evil") . Who uses the Our Father as a grace before meals? No one I've ever known - or seen on tv. The writing's usually pretty tight and I can't figure out why they'd drop all these Catholic anvils (IMO, they did everything but waive rosaries around) if it wasn't important. But why would it be important?

The Lockharts being Catholic didn't surprise me. They are an old school, traditional family. That seems to be represented fairly consistently. Also, my family is Catholic and we said the Our Father for Grace every night.

 

If Oscar overheard the conversation between Scotty & Alison, wouldn't that be considered hearsay and not be admissible at trial?

I'm not a lawyer so I'm speaking with no authority. But Oscar made a point of saying something like, "That's what, in legal terms, is called 'proximity.'" So does that mean what he overheard is admissible? It isn't something that someone told him, that he's relating. It's what he heard himself.

[Bebecat]

Ot, but the only show I can think of offhand where the NYC apartments were somewhat realistic was "Seinfeld". Elaine even had a rommmate sometimes, which would be the case, even with a decent job. And Jerry's apartment was small, nothing fancy about it, while George mostly lived with his parents.

[racked]

I'm not a lawyer so I'm speaking with no authority. But Oscar made a point of saying something like, "That's what, in legal terms, is called 'proximity.'" So does that mean what he overheard is admissible? It isn't something that someone told him, that he's relating. It's what he heard himself.

There are different hearsay exceptions and the attorney would find one that works. Excited utterance might though It doesn't quite fit the way it's usually applied.

This was the first episode I actually liked Allison and was rooting for her. Her life does seem sad and miserable but I was cheering when she told Noah off. That assistant couldn't be as awful as Allison remembered her could she? I never thought I'd miss seeing the exact same scenes from different POVs but there are moments where I do.

Property acquired by inheritence to only one spouse is considered separate property in NY. But I could see Allison giving Cole money if she didn't spend it all on that swanky new place? I could also see Cole refusing it.

Everyone seems to think Noah and Allison's new place is in the city but I thought the place Noah rented was in Crown Heights? Am I misremembering or is there a reason we think this is a different apartment?

Edited November 17, 2015 by racked

[nilyank]

 

Everyone seems to think Noah and Allison's new place is in the city but I thought the place Noah rented was in Crown Heights? Am I misremembering or is there a reason we think this is a different apartment?

 

The apartment in Crown Heights was a 2 bedroom apartment. This one is an obvious upgrade with 4 bedrooms (if we count Noah's current office that is supposed to be the nursery). 

[preeya]

If they live in proximity to Dean & DeLuca's (Thanksgiving turkey takeout) they are likely in Manhattan.

Edited November 17, 2015 by preeya

[Pallas]

I know I shouldn't be looking for clear logic here, but a newborn, or 18-month-old, or whatever Alison's baby is, doesn't defy the curse more than Gabriel did. If they are cursed this baby proves nothing. (I can't believe I just engaged in curse logic.)

 

And I can't believe I'm reasoning like Scotty...You're right: Alison's daughter would need to be somewhere north of the age of reason before the baby-blighting curse could be considered put to rest.  And who knows: perhaps what fanned the argument was Alison's informing Scotty that the  miracle child had not been baptized.  

 

Oscar's testimony about the actual words he overheard is not hearsay. He would be speaking to the fact of Scotty's accusation -- the accusation in itself, not the statement's truth or falsehood.  He mentioned his "proximity" as a way for Gottlieb to counter the prosecution's potential objection that Oscar had been too far away to hear the statement clearly.   But, "Scott Lockhart said, 'That's our baby'" is as admissible as "Noah Solloway said, 'You take the car back; I'll stay and catch the late train back.'"  

[krpa]

It's so obvious that Noah doesn't want this baby at all. And is it just me, or did Noah and Eden totally looked like that they just had sex a minute ago when they arrived at the house?

 

How can Cole still live in Alison's house if it's already in escrow? I also thought that the lifestyle Noah and Alison live now wasn't her choice at all. She seemed very unhappy and from her expression when she heard the baby's heartbeat (baby bump was too huge), she's clearly still not done processing Gabriel's death.

[truthaboutluv]

I may be wrong but I don't think it was Alison's house Cole was living in it. If I recall correctly, there was a house Alison met Noah at a few times last season when he was still in Montauk that belonged to some friend of hers. And the house Cole and Luisa was in looked very similar to that. As I recall the girl was a family friend who was much like Athena with the hippie lifestyle and was in and out a lot. 

Edited November 17, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[blixie]

 

Didn't she say Max was helping them?

 

That was my assumption, Max mentioned to Helen purchasing some real estate/building, and I assumed he was cutting them a deal on an apartment in his building. I know people like to hate on Max, but I like him, he's a better friend than Noah deserves, and I think his feelings for Helen were genuine if not mature, but I remember him confessing his genuine remorse over the end of his own marriage, even though it would get him a shot at Helen, he did everything he could to keep Noah/Helen together. I'm not saying he isn't bombastic and arrogant, he's clearly that, but I think he's pretty good guy, under all that.

[HumblePi]

Everyone seems to think Noah and Allison's new place is in the city but I thought the place Noah rented was in Crown Heights? Am I misremembering or is there a reason we think this is a different apartment?

Noah did mention that he found an apartment in Crown Heights which would make a little more sense with the logistics of the night and also with affordability of such a lavish apartment. Cole would have been a little closer getting to Luisa in Queens and Noah would have been closer to the airport to fly out Thanksgiving night to start his book tour. Cole clearly was clearly stereotyping when Luisa asked him to come to Queens for Thanksgiving dinner and he said that he doesn't like the city. Luisa said 'well you don't know my part of the city' to which he replied 'what part is that, the barrio?'. Luisa laughed but muttered something in Spanish and I wish I knew what it was. Cole was being disrespectful and demeaning by joking that Luisa....simply because she's Colombian, might be relegated to living in the 'hood' in Queens. I'm not Hispanic but I took that as an insult to Luisa. Obviously Cole looks down on her and doesn't respect her. Yes, he made up for it later at her apartment in Queens but it was his immediate knee-jerk reaction to joke in a racially discriminating way that made me dislike Cole a lot. I'm glad he went to Luisa in Queens to apologize and explain to her that he wanted to hurt her and get her out of his house. He told her it's been a while since he cared about anyone and was intentionally cruel and tried to get her out of his house.

 

To me, Cole's soulful apology to Luisa was taken with a bit of distrust. Yes, he has a conscience and knew he hurt her intentionally but the reaction and the 'joke' about the barrio was just a little bit too instantaneous for my taste. The accusation he made that she took his money clip was something else but that didn't come from a place of deep-seated racism.

Edited November 17, 2015 by HumblePi

[Bebecat]

Noah did mention that he found an apartment in Crown Heights which would make a lot of sense with the logistics of the night. Cole would have been closer to his girlfriend in Queens and Noah would have been closer to the airport to fly out Thanksgiving night to start his book tour.

But that was a 2-bdrm, one Alison wanted. Not that giant penthouse-type place, Imo.

[JenE4]

I may be wrong but I don't think it was Alison's house Cole was living in it. If I recall correctly, there was a house Alison met Noah at a few times last season when he was still in Montauk that belonged to some friend of hers and the house Cole and Luisa was in looked very similar to that. As I recall the girl was a family friend who was much like Athena with the hippie lifestyle and was in and out a lot.

I thought it was a different house, too, but I don't think it was that house. Inside Cole was standing in front of a sign that said "Fishing" something or other. It almost seemed like he was living on the docks and this was both a home and a businessplace. Then again, it could have just been a decorative sign.

[wilsonlover]

Why would Allison stop taking her birth control. And you would think Noah would confront her on it.

[attica]

If Noah is considered a literary genius based on the hysterically awful prose of his that's read aloud on this show, Nicholas Sparks is overdue, like, a hundred Pulitzers.

 

As noted upthread, there was some party chatter comparing Noah's style to Scott Spencer's Endless Love. Which is awful. And which got tremendous reviews at the time among the type of people who were depicted at this party.

 

Allison has mostly been portrayed as a handler of stuff. That she didn't see there was no fucking way Noah would bring home the turkey during some part of the afternoon and make other plans to retrieve it strikes me as out of character. I mean, sure, we were all waiting for the 'whoops, what me?' moment when he finally arrived, and sure, one wants to be optimistic about taking your partner at his word, but once the clock was ticking down to D&D closing time and Noah wasn't answering calls or texts, you gotta take things into your own hands.

 

Psst: Lisa & Philip! It's Lockhart, not Lockwood.

[DarkRaichu]

Re: Cole's money clip.  I watched the scene again. Cole actually took a few dollars from the clip with 1 hand, while the other hand put the rest of the money AND the clip into his shirt pocket.  So he DID NOT leave the clip on the table.

[Boundary]

But that was a 2-bdrm, one Alison wanted. Not that giant penthouse-type place, Imo.

 

Yes, Noah moved from the lake house, to the Crown Heights apartment and now this Manhattan penthouse. But that's over several months, since we jumped 6 weeks and now 4 months in 3 episodes. Before episode 5 it was summer, now it's already Thanksgiving.

[islandgal140]

 

As for Alison's POV, man, what a miserable existence. I think maybe for the first time I genuinely felt bad for her. Noah couldn't even look convincingly happy listening to his kid's heartbeat. Eden was a total nightmare. Max was also throwing some digs left and right and things were majorly and slightly strained respectively with Athena and Jane because of the obvious class issues/money tension.

 

In many ways, I am a petty, petty bitch. Outside of the tragic loss of her son, I can't find an ounce of sympathy for Alison with regards to her current predicament with Noah. I know she is the show's resident sad sack but no one forced her to blow up everything in her life for Noah. I will never, ever get over the two of them having sex in each other's marital bed. I just found that to be the apex of spitting on your vows/spouse. It is bad enough that they are cheating but really something about that dual act of disrespect will never make me a champion of this relationship. Ever! Then Allison had the nerve to use Helen's shower and gleefully pour the woman's $80 hair product down the drain just out of being a petty spiteful bitch! Nope!  She wanted him she got him - warts, frowny face and all. Funny how that hot passion seems to peter out once you throw obligation and duty into the mix. Good luck with that! 

 

Ain't enough 'fuck you Noah's' in the world to cover my emotions towards that character. I somehow doubt that Noah is doing his PR person but I have little doubt that he will be looking for a new muse to inspire his next novel. Allison may no longer be 'damaged' or interesting enough for him anymore now that she is nesting. 

 

Noah is a snob in his own way. He seems embarrassed to introduce Allison as a waitress. 

 

WTH does Whitney see in Scotty? 

 

I'd have to question the friendship of someone who introduced me to Max. I guess if it is all fun and games and you want a sugar daddy to buy you pretty things and help pay your student loans he is okay but ugh! 

 

Count me in as being perplexed by the real estate sheningans, however, I do find the Lockhart situation more baffling than Noah/Allison's new luxurious penthouse come up. Purportedly, the Lockharts had acres and acres of prime real estate in a highly, highly desirable area. I believe it was mentioned that it was worth tens of millions. Mama Lockhart allegedly refinanced a few times, back taxes were owed, they were operating the business at a loss but I just find it hard to believe that they come out of that without a single dollar. What the hell were they doing to be that much in debt? Was she buying Faberge eggs and Degas paintings? I don't get it. 

Edited November 17, 2015 by islandgal140

[right]

I thought it was a different house, too, but I don't think it was that house. Inside Cole was standing in front of a sign that said "Fishing" something or other. It almost seemed like he was living on the docks and this was both a home and a businessplace. Then again, it could have just been a decorative sign.

 

I keep trying to figure out where he is staying as well.  If it isn't Allison's house it seems weird that he had it decorated with Gabriel's photo on the mantel and he got upset when he noticed it was moved.  If the house hasn't been closed on it's possible he could still stay there.  If it is suppose to be another location it would have been nice if they made it look at least a little different.  Really not super important but just one of those irritating details.

[truthaboutluv]

WTH does Whitney see in Scotty?

 

 

Honestly, I think it's no deeper than she's 17 and he's "forbidden."

 

Purportedly, the Lockharts had acres and acres of prime real estate in a highly, highly desirable area. I believe it was mentioned that it was worth tens of millions. Mama Lockhart allegedly refinanced a few times, back taxes were owed, they were operating the business at a loss but I just find it hard to believe that they come out of that without a single dollar. What the hell were they doing to be that much in debt? Was she buying Faberge eggs and Degas paintings? I don't get it.

 

 

Granted I am no expert, but as I understand it, Cherry refinanced enough that essentially the bank owned the land not them. At least that's what Oscar revealed to Alison. That the family couldn't sell the property and weren't going to get anything because they didn't even own it anymore. Cherry just neglected to tell them this all the while they were drug dealing to keep up payments on a property they no longer owned. 

[GeminiDancer]

I keep trying to figure out where he is staying as well.  If it isn't Allison's house it seems weird that he had it decorated with Gabriel's photo on the mantel and he got upset when he noticed it was moved.  If the house hasn't been closed on it's possible he could still stay there.  If it is suppose to be another location it would have been nice if they made it look at least a little different.  Really not super important but just one of those irritating details.

Alison said that the house is in escrow, so it hasn't been officially sold. It seems like Cole is staying there.

[VioletMarx]

If Oscar overheard the conversation between Scotty & Alison, wouldn't that be considered hearsay and not be admissible at trial?

 

 

No. Hearsay is a second hand story. For instance, if Oscar said, "Whitney told me that Scotty said 'that's our baby.' " He heard it himself. It doesn't matter is Scott was saying it TO Oscar or just NEAR Oscar. He heard it first hand.

[Palomar]

She was looking to get a payday last season from the ranch, wasn't she?

 

 

Had forgotten about that.  Allison acted pretty entitled about getting half of Cole's inheritance even though Cherry is still alive and technically would have gotten the proceeds from selling the ranch, not the boys.

 

Outside of the tragic loss of her son, I can't find an ounce of sympathy for Alison with regards to her current predicament with Noah. I know she is the show's resident sad sack but no one forced her to blow up everything in her life for Noah. I will never, ever get over the two of them having sex in each other's marital bed. I just found that to be the apex of spitting on your vows/spouse. It is bad enough that they are cheating but really something about that dual act of disrespect will never make me a champion of this relationship. Ever! Then Allison had the nerve to use Helen's shower and gleefully pour the woman's $80 hair product down the drain just out of being a petty spiteful bitch! Nope!  She wanted him she got him - warts, frowny face and all. Funny how that hot passion seems to peter out once you throw obligation and duty into the mix. Good luck with that!

 

 

Exactly, be careful what you wish for.  Not exactly sure what she got from this relationship ultimately.  A child (although she probably would have gotten that without Noah), a penthouse, and a fiancé who is still not putting her first. Her self esteem seems lower than ever and she isn't exactly happy. 

[RedheadZombie]

Noah did mention that he found an apartment in Crown Heights which would make a little more sense with the logistics of the night and also with affordability of such a lavish apartment. Cole would have been a little closer getting to Luisa in Queens and Noah would have been closer to the airport to fly out Thanksgiving night to start his book tour. Cole clearly was clearly stereotyping when Luisa asked him to come to Queens for Thanksgiving dinner and he said that he doesn't like the city. Luisa said 'well you don't know my part of the city' to which he replied 'what part is that, the barrio?'. Luisa laughed but muttered something in Spanish and I wish I knew what it was. Cole was being disrespectful and demeaning by joking that Luisa....simply because she's Colombian, might be relegated to living in the 'hood' in Queens. I'm not Hispanic but I took that as an insult to Luisa. Obviously Cole looks down on her and doesn't respect her. Yes, he made up for it later at her apartment in Queens but it was his immediate knee-jerk reaction to joke in a racially discriminating way that made me dislike Cole a lot. I'm glad he went to Luisa in Queens to apologize and explain to her that he wanted to hurt her and get her out of his house. He told her it's been a while since he cared about anyone and was intentionally cruel and tried to get her out of his house.

 

To me, Cole's soulful apology to Luisa was taken with a bit of distrust. Yes, he has a conscience and knew he hurt her intentionally but the reaction and the 'joke' about the barrio was just a little bit too instantaneous for my taste. The accusation he made that she took his money clip was something else but that didn't come from a place of deep-seated racism.

 

Isn't she from Ecuador?  Still in South America, but not the reputation of Colombia.

[Bebecat]

I think the money clip accusation was just a way of driving her away. He thought he wanted to be rid of her a d knew she would leave with that accusation. Still, I wonder where it was, lol. I would accuse Scottie before anyone else.

[Sheenieb]

 

Noah did mention that he found an apartment in Crown Heights which would make a lot of sense with the logistics of the night. Cole would have been closer to his girlfriend in Queens and Noah would have been closer to the airport to fly out Thanksgiving night to start his book tour.

 

Ha, I was born and raised in Crown Heights, and while the area is gentrifying, it hasn't gotten that fancy, yet. Noah and Alison are definitely in the city. Especially if they're ordering in from expensive ass Dean & DeLuca.

 

I don't know which Thanksgiving dinner was worse. Cole's with the delicious looking food that no one touched, or Alison's all leafy vegetable cuisine.

 

 

Outside of the tragic loss of her son, I can't find an ounce of sympathy for Alison with regards to her current predicament with Noah. I know she is the show's resident sad sack but no one forced her to blow up everything in her life for Noah. I will never, ever get over the two of them having sex in each other's marital bed. I just found that to be the apex of spitting on your vows/spouse. It is bad enough that they are cheating but really something about that dual act of disrespect will never make me a champion of this relationship. Ever! Then Allison had the nerve to use Helen's shower and gleefully pour the woman's $80 hair product down the drain just out of being a petty spiteful bitch! Nope!  She wanted him she got him - warts, frowny face and all. Funny how that hot passion seems to peter out once you throw obligation and duty into the mix. Good luck with that!

Word to all of this. Honestly, while I'm neutral on every one since they all have their shitty sides, having sex in each other's marital beds was the height of ain't shitness. The honeymoon period is beyond over because of the baby, but to keep it extra real, if I were Alison, just interacting with Noah's horrible kids would make me rethink my divorce.

[LibertarianSlut]

If Oscar overheard the conversation between Scotty & Alison, wouldn't that be considered hearsay and not be admissible at trial?

This has been already cleared up by Pallas, and others, but I thought I'd add my $.02 with a definition of hearsay that I've found extremely helpful in understanding what the hell it is. This is the definition of hearsay as I learned it in law school:

"An out-of-court statement used to prove the truth of the matter asserted"

So if Oscar wanted to use what he'd overheard Scotty say ("that's our baby") as proof that the baby was Scotty's, that would be hearsay, and it would not be admissible unless it fell into one of the many hearsay exceptions, such as perhaps "excited utterance," as suggested up thread.

However, if Oscar is testifying that Scotty made to the statement in an effort to prove anything other than the truth of the matter asserted, it is no longer hearsay. Oscar could testify that he heard Scotty make the statement if his testimony is being used to further the theory that Alison had a motive to kill Scotty. It doesn't matter at all whether Scotty was truthful in asserting that the baby was his (or his family's, or whatever). What matters is that Alison may have believed the assertion and acted on it.

That being said, Oscar seemed to do a 180 with his position to the lawyer (Schiff?) from just a couple of episodes ago. First we had the lawyer tell Helen that Oscar would only share his info for $100k. Now, this episode, Oscar is in the lawyer's office viewing the video which had no sound. Oscar says he wants to get paid before he'll reveal what was said. The lawyer simply comes back and says he'll subpoena Oscar if he doesn't cooperate. Oscar immediately cooperates. What gives? Are we to believe he is not getting the $100k, or has he already gotten it? If the lawyer could just subpoena the testimony, why even convey the $100k price tag to Helen in the first place?

Re this episode, just a few observations:

-Ruth Wilson sounded so English, especially in the scenes in her home with her mom prior to Thanksgiving dinner. Hello? Isn't there a director there who is hearing this? Isn't it his responsibility to make her sound American? This can be so easily corrected. It's distracting.

-that publicist Eden was so extremely awful. She doesn't tell Alison whom she can and cannot speak to at her fiance's party! Divorce is a public record, so that gossip columnist could have just run Noah's name through the system to see what is up; Alison didn't "reveal" anything.

-Noah twice blamed his God-awful behavior on other people this episode. It was some other guy that kept him out for cocktails and made him two hours late to Thanksgiving dinner, after he'd promised Alison he was 20 minutes behind her. How can she trust him for anything?? Then, at dinner, it was Noah's publisher who "made" him kill her off in the book. Nothing is ever Noah's fault.

-If my fiancé came home two hours late to Thanksgiving, drunk, with no turkey, and with his pretty little thing in tow, there is no way in hell I'd let him near my pregnant stomach to listen to the baby's heartbeat. He'd be sleeping on the couch for quite awhile. And I highly doubt I'd let Eden stay for Thanksgiving dinner (Noah: she had no place else to go. Eden (leaning in and giggling): that wasn't our story). Ah, no. Rude as it would be, I'd show this slimy trash box to the door.

I know this is all Alison's perspective, and I'm not an Alison apologist; I'm more of a Helen gal. But if I perceived my fiancée to be acting in any of the ways Noah was acting in this episode, I'd seriously consider breaking things off/slowing things down. It was just appalling.

Edited November 17, 2015 by N. Bluth

[HumblePi]

Re this episode, just a few observations:

-Ruth Wilson sounded so English, especially in the scenes in her home with her mom prior to Thanksgiving dinner. Hello? Isn't there a director there who is hearing this? Isn't it his responsibility to make her sound American? This can be so easily corrected. It's distracting.

-that publicist Eden was so extremely awful. She doesn't tell Alison whom she can and cannot speak to at her fiance's party! Divorce is a public record, so that gossip columnist could have just run Noah's name through the system to see what is up; Alison didn't "reveal" anything.

-Noah twice blamed his God-awful behavior on other people this episode. It was some other guy that kept him out for cocktails and made him two hours late to Thanksgiving dinner, after he'd promised Alison he was 20 minutes behind her. How can she trust him for anything?? Then, at dinner, it was Noah's publisher who "made" him kill her off in the book. Nothing is ever Noah's fault.

 

I have to disagree with one thing, about Alison's British accent. I never heard it. I think that Ruth Wilson has done a better job at disguising her accent than Dominic West.

 

I think it's very easy to fall into the beliefs as told by the person giving the point of view. In this episode, Alison was clearly feeling out of place and insecure at that publisher's reception. Eden is being paid a very handsome salary for doing what she does. Any well-known publicist has built professional, working relationships with literary bloggers, magazine editors, and newspaper supervisors and Eden has this experience and will pitch his book on his behalf and advise him as to where to go and whom to speak with. So right now, Noah has to dance to the drummer which is Eden because she's promoting him. Alison doesn't understand this high-powered world she's been thrust into and she's feeling the strain of it.

Edited November 18, 2015 by HumblePi

[SlackerInc]

Oscar was counting the cash (presumably $100K) he received for the video.  He wanted extra to tell them what he heard Scotty say.

[Trillian]

Oscar's testimony about the actual words he overheard is not hearsay. He would be speaking to the fact of Scotty's accusation -- the accusation in itself, not the statement's truth or falsehood. He mentioned his "proximity" as a way for Gottlieb to counter the prosecution's potential objection that Oscar had been too far away to hear the statement clearly. But, "Scott Lockhart said, 'That's our baby'" is as admissible as "Noah Solloway said, 'You take the car back; I'll stay and catch the late train back.'"

No. Hearsay is a second hand story. For instance, if Oscar said, "Whitney told me that Scotty said 'that's our baby.' " He heard it himself. It doesn't matter is Scott was saying it TO Oscar or just NEAR Oscar. He heard it first hand.

As Pallas pointed out, a statement is not considered hearsay unless it is being offered for the truth of its contents. So, if the statement was being tendered to prove that the baby is the Lockharts', then it's hearsay, since it is an out of court statement being offered as a true statement. If, however, as is the case here, the statement is being tendered only to prove that the person said it (regardless of whether it is true) - perhaps to show antagonism of the parties - then it is not hearsay and it's not necessary to consider if one of the 27 exceptions to the hearsay rule apply.

Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm a bit of a hearsay geek :)

[HumblePi]

As Pallas pointed out, a statement is not considered hearsay unless it is being offered for the truth of its contents. So, if the statement was being tendered to prove that the baby is the Lockharts', then it's hearsay, since it is an out of court statement being offered as a true statement. If, however, as is the case here, the statement is being tendered only to prove that the person said it (regardless of whether it is true) - perhaps to show antagonism of the parties - then it is not hearsay and it's not necessary to consider if one of the 27 exceptions to the hearsay rule apply.

Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm a bit of a hearsay geek :)

As the fade-out shot showed, any person that is a lip reading expert or even not an expert could read the lips of Scottie and understand the words "that's our baby".  I doubt that any expert lip reading testimony could be disputed in a court of law. Paying Oscar any more extortion money would be unnecessary.

[Neurochick]

After seeing this episode, I really believe that to Noah, Alison was a hook up, a summer fling.  To Alison, Noah was a little more.  Had their affair not been discovered, I don't think their "relationship" would have continued.  Since they were caught, they both felt pressure to remain together; I just don't sense any "true love" between them.  I think some part of Noah wishes he would have run Alison over, killed her and gone back to Helen and the children.  

 

I think Alison should have left both Noah and Cole, gone with Athena to that commune, and stayed there until she got some perspective of her life.  

 

I do feel the love between Cole and Luisa though.  Cole was a prick to her in the beginning, but he apologized for it, he explained himself.  He is trying to be a better man.  

 

As for the baby, I think it's a red herring.  I think the baby is Noah's, however Scotty did know that Alison was with Cole that night and that is something Noah doesn't know, so maybe that's motive for killing Scotty.  In fact I think that a lot of people had motive for killing Scotty.  

[Boundary]

I think it's very easy to fall into the beliefs as told by the person giving the point of view. In this episode, Alison was clearly feeling out of place and insecure at that publisher's reception. Eden is being paid a very handsome salary for doing what she does. Any well-known publicist has built professional, working relationships with literary bloggers, magazine editors, and newspaper supervisors and Eden has this experience and will pitch his book on his behalf and advise him as to where to go and whom to speak with. So right now, Noah has to dance to the drummer which is Eden because she's promoting him. Alison doesn't understand this high-powered world she's been thrust into and she's feeling the strain of it.

 

Exactly what I was thinking. No doubt Eden is annoying but that has to be balanced out by the fact that this was Alison's POV, who was feeling very insecure and annoyed. I honestly don't believe Noah could hook up with his publicist, then bring her to his family dinner. I really should be waiting for Noah's POV to be sure, at least the counter balance will help in calibrating where the truth might lie.

[HumblePi]

 

As for the baby, I think it's a red herring.  I think the baby is Noah's, however Scotty did know that Alison was with Cole that night and that is something Noah doesn't know, so maybe that's motive for killing Scotty.  In fact I think that a lot of people had motive for killing Scotty.  

Scotty is such a scumbag that if I knew him I'm sure that even I'd have a motive to kill him too. (kidding)

[SlackerInc]

Had their affair not been discovered, I don't think their "relationship" would have continued. Since they were caught, they both felt pressure to remain together; I just don't sense any "true love" between them. I think some part of Noah wishes he would have run Alison over, killed her and gone back to Helen and the children.

I think you may be forgetting some of the details of how this all went down. Noah confessed the affair; it was not that Helen discovered it. But it was not the classic "I'm sorry, but it is over and it didn't mean anything"; he told her he was in love with Alison and that he didn't want to be with Helen any more. He then talked about working on a slow process of him moving out, for the sake of the kids, but Helen was all "get the fuck out NOW".

Later, when Allison and Noah were not together by her choice, Helen basically grovelled and begged Noah to come back, and he went for it. But then there was the thing with Whitney and Cole and the gun, and Noah stayed behind to comfort Alison, choosing her (to the shock of Whitney and Helen), and he has been with her ever since.

I don't see how any of this squares with the narrative you are describing at all.

Edited November 18, 2015 by SlackerInc

[izabella]

I think you may be forgetting some of the details of how this all went down. Noah confessed the affair; it was not that Helen discovered it. But it was not the classic "I'm sorry, but it is over and it didn't mean anything"; he told her he was in love with Alison and that he didn't want to be with Helen any more. He then talked about working on a slow process of him moving out, for the sake of the kids, but Helen was all "get the fuck out NOW".

 

When did Helen find Allison's underwear in the bedroom?  I can't remember if that's what prompted Noah's confession.

[truthaboutluv]

But it was not the classic "I'm sorry, but it is over and it didn't mean anything"; he told her he was in love with Alison and that he didn't want to be with Helen any more. He then talked about working on a slow process of him moving out, for the sake of the kids, but Helen was all "get the fuck out NOW".

 

 

Well there is a part of the story you are forgetting. When Noah first confessed, he did say it was a mistake and meant nothing and made it clear he wanted to stay with Helen and his family. That's when they started couples counseling and in typical clueless Noah fashion, he later tried to give Helen some jewelry as a "thanks for sticking with my cheating ass" gift, only reminding her of the cheating and pissing her off. And also in Noah's fashion, acted all wounded and demanded to know when Helen would stop punishing him.

 

It was later that Noah went back to Montauk for Helen's dad's honor and ran into Alison and the conflicting events of him joining her in the hospital when her grandmother was dying. At that point the affair started up again and it was after that Noah said he wanted out of the marriage and seemingly chose Alison.

 

When did Helen find Allison's underwear in the bedroom?  I can't remember if that's what prompted Noah's confession.

 

 

She found it after Noah told her he wanted out of the marriage. She was packing up and throwing his things at him, when she found the panties and that particularly set her off to where she screamed at him to get the fuck out of her house. And it was one of the few times I literally cheered at a television screen. 

Edited November 18, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[briochetwist]

I think you may be forgetting some of the details of how this all went down. Noah confessed the affair; it was not that Helen discovered it. But it was not the classic "I'm sorry, but it is over and it didn't mean anything"; he told her he was in love with Alison and that he didn't want to be with Helen any more. He then talked about working on a slow process of him moving out, for the sake of the kids, but Helen was all "get the fuck out NOW".

Later, when Allison and Noah were not together by her choice, Helen basically grovelled and begged Noah to come back, and he went for it. But then there was the thing with Whitney and Cole and the gun, and Noah stayed behind to comfort Alison, choosing her (to the shock of Whitney and Helen), and he has been with her ever since.

I don't see how any of this squares with the narrative you are describing at all.

 

Actually, I think you may be forgetting some of the details of how this went down.  Helen had no POV in the first season, so you'll forgive me if I don't take Noah's POV as the truth. I completely agree with everything that Neurochick said.  I think Noah got caught up in the excitement of it all, and thought it was what he wanted, but after making the decision to leave and then spending time with Allison he realized that he'd made a mistake. I think Allison knows this too.

 

Edited because 'everyone' and 'everything' are not interchangeable!

Edited November 18, 2015 by briochetwist

[SlackerInc]

No, the order was the other way 'round.  (I had to go back to research some of this stuff--I won't claim to have every detail memorized, although I did watch S1 for the first time just before S2 started, so it's definitely fresher for me than for most of you, to be fair.)

 

It was the penultimate episode of S1, "9".  Noah tells Alison he loves her, shows her an apartment which she calls a "stash pad", especially when he says he's not ready to leave Helen yet, wants to wait until Whitney is in college, etc. (Alison goes on to fuck Oscar and nearly drown herself in this ep).  Noah goes to visit Max and tells him he is in love with Alison.  Max demurs and tells Noah to cool his jets.  He asks Noah if it's "true love" and Noah emphatically says it is.  Max says in that case, "true love will wait" or something like that.  Noah sees a man kill himself by jumping off a building.  When talking to the cops about it, the cop says "it's not that hard, buddy--just make a choice".  

 

This appears to spur Noah into action.  He comes home and tells Helen he is in love with Alison as I described above.  Helen is, as I said, not down with Noah's plan to have him detach from their home in a gradual fashion, and she starts packing his things.  It is while packing his clothes that she finds the sexy undies Noah stupidly stashed in a drawer.  Then she goes even more ballistic, throwing things at him, cursing him, etc.

 

So again, while we can all have different opinions about people's motivations, their decency, etc., I just think there's far too much evidence to the contrary for Neurochick's theory to hold any water.

Edited November 18, 2015 by SlackerInc

[Superpole2000]

The NYC apartment was ridiculous. Finances are an essential component of this series, so to me the apartment needed to make sense. It was so wrong that it took me out of the imagined reality of the show.

 

I am giving Noah a break on showing up late for Thanksgiving. Whatever function he was at did seem to be important to his career. How many chances will he get to promote a bestselling book? Just about anyone in Alison's shoes would understand that and be happy their partner was having their most successful career day ever. Instead, Alison reacted in her usual Alison way and made me hate her even more. Of course, this all ignores the fact that a function like that would probably never have occurred on Thanksgiving. People have other places to be on that day.

 

Alison's recollection of Eden was hilariously over the top. I can't help but wonder if Eden was even there, considering how much of a persecution complex Alison has.

[briochetwist]

 

So again, while we can all have different opinions about people's motivations, their decency, etc., I just think there's far too much evidence to the contrary for Neurochick's theory to hold any water.

I guess you are interpreting the 'evidence' differently then.  I don't really think anyone is denying the events that took place, I just believe that Noah got caught up in it all, thought he was in love with Allison, but after that so-called 'honeymoon period' realized that this was a big mistake.  And I believe there's plenty of evidence to support that theory.  But I guess YMMV.

[MomKat]

It occurs to me that since so much of this show is presented as "perception" vs. reality, maybe Allison's exaggerated pregnancy is just a symbol of how pregnant she FEELS, especially in a situation where she is being scrutinized by strangers, her mother, and horrible Eden. After all, they made an obvious point of the date (Thanksgiving) and her due date (April), and it's laughably incongruous to see the size of her belly.

[Milburn Stone]

Jonathan Franzen wouldn't be spending two hours on Thanksgiving night with the author of a summer beach read.  That and comments made at the party made it clear to me that this book is supposed to be a literary success.

 

And Philip Roth can't stop talking about it!

[SlackerInc]

I guess you are interpreting the 'evidence' differently then. I don't really think anyone is denying the events that took place, I just believe that Noah got caught up in it all, thought he was in love with Allison, but after that so-called 'honeymoon period' realized that this was a big mistake. And I believe there's plenty of evidence to support that theory. But I guess YMMV.

But the foundation of Neurochick's theory is that Noah only decided that he was in love and would stay with Alison because he was "caught" in the affair. The evidence is unambiguously that this is not at all what happened.

To clarify, the evidence I'm citing does not prove they are "truly in love". I can't prove that, especially if no one will take Sarah Treem's word for it (although again, I don't know what it means to say a fictional character is not actually in love when the writer of the ongoing series says he is). But if Noah is not actually in love, it's not because he got caught in their affair. He clearly decided, twice, to leave Helen and be with Alison without the issue being forced by Helen catching him.

[briochetwist]

But the foundation of Neurochick's theory is that Noah only decided that he was in love and would stay with Alison because he was "caught" in the affair. The evidence is unambiguously that this is not at all what happened.

To clarify, the evidence I'm citing does not prove they are "truly in love". I can't prove that, especially if no one will take Sarah Treem's word for it (although again, I don't know what it means to say a fictional character is not actually in love when the writer of the ongoing series says he is). But if Noah is not actually in love, it's not because he got caught in their affair. He clearly decided, twice, to leave Helen and be with Alison without the issue being forced by Helen catching him.

I see what you're saying, but it's a moot point for me.  I see him as being caught/stuck in the affair.  I'll agree that he decided to leave Helen, but that doesn't change the fact that they do not seem to be in love and all and that he regrets this decision.  

 

If Sarah Treem wanted me to buy that they were soulmates, she should have picked two actors that have some sort of spark between them.  I see nothing between these two.  If they hadn't added Cole's and Helen's POV this season I would have been done.

[bunnywithanaxe]

Gosh, the Lockhart clan is so wonderfully... Yankee. Like H.P. Lovecraft/ Stephen King yankee. Dolores Lockhart. That story could have been carved in a tree with the title "Croatoan"

Edited November 18, 2015 by bunnywithanaxe

[Bebecat]

Could the apartment be Alison's perception, lol? Maybe it is "fancy" but not the overwhelming place we saw? Just kidding, really, due to the reactions of her friend and Mom, but starting to'wonder as it so does not "fit" in with the finances as we know them. Also, unless Noah has already been paid upfront for the movie rights from a major studio, there just is not literally millions in a single book very often, for the author anyway. He would have to sell many millions of books, which I doubt has happened over the course of a year or so. I have read that to be a "bestseller" means something like 25k copies sold over a particular time period. Not sure how it work, though I have written and published a few books (hardly any sales, lol) but it takes many books as a rule to make the author truly wealthy and usually, several movie deals too.