Love in the Time of Walkers: Relationships in The Walking Dead

[NoWillToResist]

 From the stuff I've seen, I can only surmise Abe just wasn't that into her, but she was the only girl around. Now that he has more options, he's ready to upgrade. 

 

I'm not sure that 'upgrade' is accurate (or fair to the ladies); I suspect there is very much a 'love the one you're with' attitude in the ZA due to lack of options.

 

Someone new may not necessarily need to be prettier or smarter to draw one's attention away from the current partner. Perhaps Sasha has more in common with Abe than Rosita does; maybe Abe just feels more of a connection with Sasha; maybe Abe has a hero complex and wants to 'save' Sasha from her darkness/sadness...

 

There can be many explanations for Abe being willing to dump Rosita for Sasha. I hope 'upgrading' is not one of them...

Edited November 18, 2015 by NoWillToResist

[nodorothyparker]

I would be hesitant to call it upgrading too.  My impression of Abe and Rosita (once I got over my utter annoyance that these comic book looking people had apparently wandered in from said comic onto the show) was that they were fuck buddies or friends with benefits out of convenience or comfort or boredom or whatever.  Having been in a few of those relationships in another life, I can say they're great as long as everybody is clear that's what it is.  (I'd say I'm a little surprised we haven't seen more of this on the show if we hadn't already established that part of the viewing audience is going to label any woman who has sex a whore.)

 

The thing about these kind of relationships though is that sooner or later one or both of you ends up meeting someone or being attracted to someone else and wanting to move on.  That's usually when you find out if both parties involved were truly as casual about the relationship as they thought they were.

[ghoulina]

Sorry, perhaps "upgrade" was not the right word. I certainly did not mean it, from my end, in a sense that I think Sasha is somehow superior to Rosita in any way. What I meant was, I am guessing that maybe Abe was only into Rosita in a friends-with-benefits kind of way, and now there is something more he's feeling with Sasha. So I was using "upgrade" in the sense of the TYPE of relationship. Like maybe he wants more with Sasha. 

[AngelaHunter]

I suspect there is very much a 'love the one you're with' attitude in the ZA due to lack of options.

 

Agree. The adrenaline is pumping, excitement is high and someone of the opposite sex is within reach.

 

As Joey Quinn (Dexter) so eloquently put it (and pardon the language), "You lock two people in a room long enough and sooner or later they're gonna fuck."

 

 IMO, Abe is kind of an asshole and I hope Sasha can somehow resist his incredible charms.

[RustbeltWriter]

You know, Eugene knows exaclty what Rosita likes since he's spent so much time observing...

[Yolapukka]

 

IMO, Abe is kind of an asshole and I hope Sasha can somehow resist his incredible charms.

 

I can't ship them.  I found his pass at Sasha off-putting, his words and attitude would have dumped a cold bucket of water over me if I'd been in her shoes and hitherto attracted. The Rosita issue is kind of squicky since they all presumably live under the same roof and if they don't, they are next door to one another. I don't know what their status as fuck-buddies is, but it still would be a pretty freaking weird situation. I've wanted to see Rosita move on from him for a while, but a mutual parting of ways seems preferable to essentially being dumped, particularly dumped for someone I enjoyed seeing Rosita interact and bond with. 

[AngelaHunter]

I found his pass at Sasha off-putting, his words and attitude would have dumped a cold bucket of water over me if I'd been in her shoes and hitherto attracted.

 

I agree. I wouldn't touch him with someone else's hands. My comment about his "incredible charms" was a (poor) attempt at sarcasm.

[chlban]

So I guess there is totally no "girl code" in the ZA? I suppose its possible Abe and Rosita are only Friends with benefits, in which case I suppose it is cool, but if Rosita really cares for him tnen he should be 100% off limits to Sasha. Especially considering the CDB gang consider themselves family. That would be like breaking the girl code with someone your sister once loved.

[mightysparrow]

I would be hesitant to call it upgrading too.  My impression of Abe and Rosita (once I got over my utter annoyance that these comic book looking people had apparently wandered in from said comic onto the show) was that they were fuck buddies or friends with benefits out of convenience or comfort or boredom or whatever.  Having been in a few of those relationships in another life, I can say they're great as long as everybody is clear that's what it is.  (I'd say I'm a little surprised we haven't seen more of this on the show if we hadn't already established that part of the viewing audience is going to label any woman who has sex a whore.)

 

The thing about these kind of relationships though is that sooner or later one or both of you ends up meeting someone or being attracted to someone else and wanting to move on.  That's usually when you find out if both parties involved were truly as casual about the relationship as they thought they were.

 

A woman's not a 'whore' if she has sex.  She's only a whore if she ENJOYS it.

[mightysparrow]

I think that Michonne should have a love life. I just don't know that it should involve Rick. (Other than the fact that she's gorgeous and he's handsome, I don't see what draws them together.).  I just haven't noticed a ton of sexual chemistry between them.  So, question for the Richonne shippers -- does she ever smile at Rick or laugh at something he says?

 

Do the two biggest badasses on the show have to hook up?  Also why not Daryl and Michonne? I think they could be really good for each other. (Admittedly, I love the pairing of Carol and Daryl but if that's not gonna happen ...)

 

I've been saying that Michonne and Daryl should hook up for ages.  I think they make the most sense.  Rick has shown us what he wants and I don't think there's any reason why Michonne should sit around waiting for Rick to get Jessie out of his system.  Rick doesn't deserve Michonne and Michonne deserves much better than Rick.

[mightysparrow]

Well, I honestly don't think anyone else is a great fit for her, and the one I hear most about is Rick. She's only alive because Merle became a slightly better person long before Rick made his impotent half-assed attempt at unpressing the button. And, hell, at least when Merle was going to give her to the Gov, he was doing it as an "honest" bad guy who just wanted to use her to get close to somebody he really hated and wanted to kill. Rick seriously had to think about whether or not it was cool to let somebody torture her to death just for that one millionth of one per cent chance that Lucy wouldn't pull the football out of the way this time.

So, Rick not only has way too slow a learning curve to make him worthy of Michonne, but even after she saved Andrea from zombies, saved Judith from starvation, told him where Glenn and Maggie were imprisoned, and protected Coral while Rick talked to CrazyMorgan all day, she was still relatively expendable.

No way in hell, after that shit, is Rick allowed to get with Michonne.

 

PREACH THAT SHIT!!

 

Rick was going to hand Michonne over to the Governor to be raped and tortured to death.  Fuck Rick where he lives.  He doesn't get one bit of Ms. Michonne.

[CletusMusashi]

After a big zombie battle, Michonne has enough to worry about cleaning her own hair.

No way she's gonna mess with Daryl's.

How about Daryl and Rosita? She kept Eugene and Abraham pretty well groomed.

Or better yet, put Daryl with Jessie and put Rosita with Rick.

Dealing with Rick is actually a lot like dealing with Abraham, and watching over Carl and Judith is no doubt far easier than watching over Eugene.

Meanwhile, Jessie could clean up Daryl a little bit, and he could give her kids a strong, knowledgeable  postapocalyptic role model who hasn't brutally killed their father.

Granted, none of these characters have been seen making googly eyes at each other yet, so I'm really just sort of mixing and matching them like action figures... but how is that so different from the actual writers?

Edited November 19, 2015 by CletusMusashi

[NoWillToResist]

 Fuck Rick where he lives. 

 

I believe Jessie has taken on that assignment... ;)

[Yolapukka]

 

Dealing with Rick is actually a lot like dealing with Abraham, and watching over Carl and Judith is no doubt far easier than watching over Eugene.

 

.... and being watched in return.

[mightysparrow]

After a big zombie battle, Michonne has enough to worry about cleaning her own hair.

No way she's gonna mess with Daryl's.

How about Daryl and Rosita? She kept Eugene and Abraham pretty well groomed.

Or better yet, put Daryl with Jessie and put Rosita with Rick.

Dealing with Rick is actually a lot like dealing with Abraham, and watching over Carl and Judith is no doubt far easier than watching over Eugene.

Meanwhile, Jessie could clean up Daryl a little bit, and he could give her kids a strong, knowledgeable  postapocalyptic role model who hasn't brutally killed their father.

Granted, none of these characters have been seen making googly eyes at each other yet, so I'm really just sort of mixing and matching them like action figures... but how is that so different from the actual writers?

 

Daryl's going to have to get some grooming tips if he wants to get with Michonne. Maybe Abraham can show him how to get 'dolphin smooth'. 

 

I like Rosita too much to inflict Rick on her.  Rick deserves to be alone.  Or maybe he deserves Carol.  What he doesn't deserve is a good, caring woman.

[Eyes High]

Is there anything in the show itself--and I don't count coy showrunner Jim/Pam comparisons or fannish speculation--to support the contention that Michonne feels anything for Rick other than warm friendship? Michonne was fucking a man who looked like Aldis Hodge, for crying out loud. She has standards, is all I'm saying. Who's to say she's even into white guys?

Comic Michonne isn't.

 

While I understand the apparent unfairness of a relatively minor character like young, white Tara getting a cute girlfriend while the middle-aged Carol and the African-American Michonne are tragically left manless, it's hardly surprising when you consider that Carol and Michonne have not found any suitable partners in Rick's clan and they're wary with good reason of anyone outside the tribe. Tara was friendly and chatty with Denise, a shockingly effective way of opening the door to romantic relationships. Morgan complimenting Carol on her aura of competence was met with an icy "Aren't you sweet." He probably wasn't interested in her that way, but if he had been, I'm pretty confident that would have scared him off (before she started knifing Wolves in front of him, that is). Carol and Michonne are attractive women. If they remain single in Alexandria despite having a new population of potential options, I'd say that it's by choice.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Eyes High

[NorthstarATL]

 

While I understand the apparent unfairness of a relatively minor character like young, white Tara getting a cute girlfriend while the middle-aged Carol and the African-American Michonne are tragically left manless,

There's also the fact that gay people are a much smaller percentage of the population than TV would have you believe, so when someone like Tara or Aaron finds that one survivor that is compatible and reasonably clean they might be more likely than a Carol or Michonne to form an immediate attachment (this is, statistics-be-damned, Tara's SECOND such hook-up in an incredibly short time!), who would likely have more choices available. Plus, Tara and Aaron  have no fear of pregnancies resulting from their unions, whereas Carol or Michonne could, and both of them have had to fend for themselves solo for a period of time in this new world and are more aware of the pitfalls that might derive from such a physical change. (Look at Michonne's experience with Andrea getting sick. It put both of them in danger. I'm not saying that being pregnant is the SAME as an illness, but there are similarities that would be -taxing in a ZA much moreso than in the real world.)

  And let's not forget that while we, as an audience, find sex/companionship to be a blissful state, for Caroi it might not be. We don't REALLY know what pre-ZA Carol was like, and why she was with Ed. We DO know that it proved unhealthy for her and that this Carol would likely NEVER go there again, but has that experience put a damper on how Carol sees potential hook-ups? (Recall her advice to Andrea about murdering the Governor in his sleep.) Not to mention what happened to Sophia and to Michonne's son, and how THOSE situations might make the two women wary of THAT aspect of potential pregnancy!

   The ZA would not work on the CW.

[GodsBeloved]

Is there anything in the show itself--and I don't count coy showrunner Jim/Pam comparisons or fannish speculation--to support the contention that Michonne feels anything for Rick other than warm friendship? Michonne was fucking a man who looked like Aldis Hodge, for crying out loud. She has standards, is all I'm saying. 

hehehehehehehe!!! Put this way, my beloved redneck Daryl is certainly out of contention LOL

[JBody]

True! But Andrew Lincoln ships Richonne and so does his Mum. I'm with them. Now it goes without saying it all comes down to interpretation. I'm not here to convince anyone but I do enjoy all points of view on the subject. I also think they haven't done such a fantastic job writing romantic relationships on this show so if it remains in the Land of Speculation I think I'd be okay with that.

Edited November 19, 2015 by JBody

[qtpye]

My impression of Abe and Rosita (once I got over my utter annoyance that these comic book looking people had apparently wandered in from said comic onto the show) was that they were fuck buddies or friends with benefits out of convenience or comfort or boredom or whatever.  Having been in a few of those relationships in another life, I can say they're great as long as everybody is clear that's what it is

 

 

I agree there should be more sex in the ZA, but I am glad I do not have to see gratuitous sex scenes.

Also, I have found the "fuck buddy" relationship always seems to work out well in theory, but rarely in real life.

 

I knew a lady who had a "friends with benefits" thing with one of her male colleagues.  She then met another guy she really did like, so called off the "benefits"  thing with the fuck buddy guy. 

 

The "fuck buddy guy" then went on a rampage in social media and other places calling the woman the biggest slut on earth.  I do not know if his ego was hurt that she found someone first or if he had real feelings for the lady, but things got ugly very quickly.

[SevenStars]

I'm sure Michonne would willingly and without hesitation push aside someone who look like her old flame for Rick just because he is someone who would willingly, without question kill anyone and everyone to protect her son.

In this new world, after what she has experienced, she wouldn't pick the same type of men she would have picked before the world went crazy. So I think after everything she has been through, Rick is exactly her type. Someone who believes in protecting his love ones at all cost. That's why she didn't hold the governor situation against him. Because she knew it wasn't anything personal but him thinking about his children's safety and those around him.

This is one of the reasons I think she is so close to him and is willing to back him up, even when she doesn't 100% agree with his decisions or believes.

As for Carol, I don't know her mindset because the writers have never giving us the opportunity of seeing someone be interested in her.

The fact tbat the writers have no one showing the least amount of romantic interest in these ladies feel wrong.

The character doesn't even have to be a main character. It can just be a minor character saying something that shows that these ladies would get romantic love if they were interested in it.

So saying that these ladies are not getting love just because they're not interested in it is not accurate to me because they have never shown them rejecting that type of relationship. It also follow the trope that women who are like Michonne and Carol are too tough to be real women, therefore, men don't want them romantically and only see them as another man. I hate that trope because it attempt to defined what a woman should and shouldn't be. So for that reason alone, I would love to see badass Carol and Michonne getting interest from guys and later romantic relationships.

So this is my main problem with the writing for these ladies when it comes to the romantic aspect of their characters.

Edited November 19, 2015 by SevenStars

[ghoulina]

I'm sure Michonne would willingly and without hesitation push aside someone who look like her old flame for Rick just because he is someone who would willingly, without question kill anyone and everyone to protect her son.

In this new world, after what she has experienced, she wouldn't pick the same type of men she would have picked before the world went crazy. So I think after everything she has been through, Rick is exactly her type. Someone who believes in protecting his love ones at all cost. That's why she didn't hold the governor situation against him. Because she knew it wasn't anything personal but him thinking about his children's safety and those around him.

 

Exactly. The dude got high and let their camp get overrun and their son get killed. Who cares what he looked like???

 

I don't ship Richonne, but I can see it making sense. I've seen a lot of people say they're not a suitable match because Rick was some hick sheriff before the fall, while she was a cultured, intelligent city girl. But who you were before doesn't necessarily factor in. Rick and Michonne have been through a lot together, and they're both obviously people with a strong sense of loyalty and protection over their group. I think she balances him when he tends to become too unhinged, and he has pushed her when all she wanted to do was close herself off. 

 

That being said, still don't want them together because it would probably ruin one or both of them. 

[Eyes High]

I'm sure Michonne would willingly and without hesitation push aside someone who look like her old flame for Rick just because he is someone who would willingly, without question kill anyone and everyone to protect her son.

 

 

Not if she's not attracted to Rick, and I haven't seen anyone provide any information from the show itself to suggest that she is. Yvette Nicole Brown fangirling doesn't count.

 

In this new world, after what she has experienced, she wouldn't pick the same type of men she would have picked before the world went crazy.

 

Up to a point. I and some of the other posters on the thread have talked about expecting to see more "opportunistic" relationships in the ZA with less deference to age differences, cultural differences, etc. However, if Michonne just isn't attracted to Rick, their circumstances won't artificially create that sort of attraction. Eugene is aware of his relative lack of options in the ZA, but he hits on young, pretty Tara (before learning that she's a lesbian) and creeps on young, pretty Rosita.

 

I think in a ZA survival situation, you would expect to see pretty young things who feel unable to fend for themselves find the strongest, toughest, baddest alphas around to seduce as a survival tactic. Not surprisingly, Michonne has no need or use for such methods. She can take of herself, thank you very much. If she stays with the group, it's because she values them, not because she needs them to survive. If she's friends with Rick, it's because she cares about him as a person, not because he's an alpha with rage issues who would have stopped at nothing to protect her dead son.

 

So I think after everything she has been through, Rick is exactly her type.

 

I dunno. Daryl and Carol being through all that shit together, and Daryl clearly loving Carol deeply, hasn't served to make Daryl magically attracted to Carol when he wasn't before. As much as Daryl loves her, and as close as they are now--could you imagine Michonne running over to Rick in front of the group and hugging him while sobbing like a baby?--he's no closer to being physically attracted to her than he was when they met.

 

If Rick was never Michonne's type, their circumstances won't change that. Michonne has been through a lot, but she's not desperate for a man, either for sexual gratification, romance, or protection, and if she were desperate, I don't see any reason to think that Rick would be the one she would seek out over someone else, especially when there are guys who look like Heath running around.

 

So saying that these ladies are not getting love just because they're not interested in it is not accurate to me because they have never shown them rejecting that type of relationship.

 

The writers have never shown Carol or Michonne pursuing that kind of relationship, either--even passively pursuing in the sense of quietly sighing over a reticent man--unless you count Michonne's pretty-emotionally-fraught-for-a-platonic-relationship thing with Andrea. Carol was cool at best towards Axel and was downright frosty towards Morgan; nor is there any suggestion that she was quietly pining for Tyreese during their travels together, even though he was attractive, a good dude, and the only available man in the vicinity. Michonne has never pursued anyone. That's my point. If Carol or Michonne wanted a man, they could get one. There's nothing in the show to suggest that they are not single by choice.

 

It's also weirdly old-fashioned to suggest that Carol and Michonne are single purely because no dudes hit on them. And really, if Carol and Michonne want to be stone-faced at best and terrifying at worst with pretty much everyone--Carol loves Daryl, and she's a pretty cool customer even with him--they're going to have to make the first move.

 

It also follow the trope that women who are like Michonne and Carol are too tough to be real women, therefore, men don't want them romantically and only see them as another man. I hate that trope because it attempt to defined what a woman should and shouldn't be. So for that reason alone, I would love to see badass Carol and Michonne getting interest from guys and later romantic relationships. So this is my main problem with the writing for these ladies when it comes to the romantic aspect of their characters.

 

It makes more sense to me to look at it the other way. Michonne or Carol are attractive, capable, grown-ass women in control of their lives and their choices, not starry-eyed teens doodling hearts in their notebooks and sighing about how Scott from Algebra is the dreamiest. To construct them as nothing other than passive potential objects of male desire wasting away for unrequited love of Rick or Daryl because no man will deign to hit on them does them a grave disservice. What about what they want? What about what they choose to pursue? What about their motivations for seeking out or avoiding a romantic relationship? 

 

I can't help but sense a bit of a double standard here. Why is Daryl's demonstrated lack of interest in a romantic connection and consequent singledom acceptable but Michonne and Carol's manlessness a horrible tragedy demonstrative of some bias on the writers' part against romances for "tough" women? It seems to rest on the assumption that they must want to be partnered or should want to be partnered because they're women. Even if you accept the assumption that more women than men want to be partnered--and that assumption's pretty flimsy--there are very good reasons in the story why neither Michonne nor Carol would be particularly interested in locking someone down. 

 

Both Michonne and Carol seem to me like people who due to their pasts desperately need to feel in control of their lives and able to handle the people around them. Since getting involved with someone in a sexual or romantic way--even in a casual fuckbuddy relationship--requires the abandonment of a certain amount of control, I believe it's in character for Michonne and Carol to resist that. Even with Daryl, whom she loves and trusts, Carol still has her walls up.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Eyes High

[CletusMusashi]

Andrew Lincoln ships Richonne 

Well, yeah! I'd support Richonne too, as long as I got to be Rick!

[JBody]

Your logic is impeccable as always, Cletus.  But don't Mums know best? *WINK*

[AngelaHunter]

It also follow the trope that women who are like Michonne and Carol are too tough to be real women, therefore, men don't want them romantically and only see them as another man.

 

Let's see if I can get a coherent thought in words here. Everyone has a "type" that they're attracted to. I've known many men in my life who were perfectly fine in every way, but that certain something wasn't there - that spark that makes me want them physically. It  can't be forced. It's either there or it's not and proximity is not a factor. You can have a great affection and/or admiration for someone but still not want to have sex with them.

 

I don't think Rick or Daryl (or even Abe, god forbid) see either of these women as "men". They may deeply admire and care for them, but are just not physically attracted to them. Everyone's needs are different and that's life.

[NoWillToResist]

The writers have never shown Carol or Michonne pursuing that kind of relationship, either  /snip/ If Carol or Michonne wanted a man, they could get one. There's nothing in the show to suggest that they are not single by choice.

 

/snip/ It makes more sense to me to look at it the other way. Michonne or Carol are attractive, capable, grown-ass women in control of their lives and their choices, not starry-eyed teens doodling hearts in their notebooks and sighing about how Scott from Algebra is the dreamiest. To construct them as nothing other than passive potential objects of male desire wasting away for unrequited love of Rick or Daryl because no man will deign to hit on them does them a grave disservice. What about what they want? What about what they choose to pursue? What about their motivations for seeking out or avoiding a romantic relationship? 

 

I can't help but sense a bit of a double standard here. Why is Daryl's demonstrated lack of interest in a romantic connection and consequent singledom acceptable but Michonne and Carol's manlessness a horrible tragedy demonstrative of some bias on the writers' part against romances for "tough" women? It seems to rest on the assumption that they must want to be partnered or should want to be partnered because they're women. Even if you accept the assumption that more women than men want to be partnered--and that assumption's pretty flimsy--there are very good reasons in the story why neither Michonne nor Carol would be particularly interested in locking someone down. 

 

Both Michonne and Carol seem to me like people who due to their pasts desperately need to feel in control of their lives and able to handle the people around them. Since getting involved with someone in a sexual or romantic way--even in a casual fuckbuddy relationship--requires the abandonment of a certain amount of control, I believe it's in character for Michonne and Carol to resist that. Even with Daryl, whom she loves and trusts, Carol still has her walls up.

 

 

Thank you. I was desperately trying to find a way to address the complaints about Carol and Michonne being single but I couldn't put together a clear and decent rebuttal. I think you've summarized what I was feeling very well. I was starting to feel weird that I wasn't bothered by Michonne or Carol's lack of "man" action. If they wanted one, I'm sure they'd take steps; neither one seems to be the shy, shrinking violet type. I think they simply don't want one. Not because they're badass warriors and women can't be strong while in a relationship, but simply that their prior romantic relationships may have made them very fundamentally DISINTERESTED in going there (at least for now). Throw in that there apparently hasn't been anyone worth taking the emotional risk for and...yeah...I kind of find it refreshing that they're well regarded, loved and respected.

 

Frankly, I'm kind of bothered that some folks are on the lookout for Rosita's next hookup because God forbid she be single for a while after Abe leaves her, though at least her character has been shown to be willing to engage emotionally and physically with another human being on that level (unlike Michonne and Carol).

Edited November 20, 2015 by NoWillToResist

[Dr.Jacoby]

I'm probably going to go out on an (unpopular?) limb here and opine that I think the person Rick's had the best chemistry with so far was Shane, and if the writers had decided to resolve the Shane/Lori/Rick 'love triangle' in that direction... well actually people's heads would probably have exploded so it's just as well this isn't HBO ;) but loving or hating each other I thought those two had some real spark

[Nashville]

Frankly, I'm kind of bothered that some folks are on the lookout for Rosita's next hookup because God forbid she be single for a while after Abe leaves her, though at least her character has been shown to be willing to engage emotionally and physically with another human being on that level (unlike Michonne and Carol).

 

I don't think RositaMatch 3000 has anything to do with weakness or neediness on Rosita's part - not as far as I'm concerned, anyway.  Rather, I think (a) Abraham is being a douche and (b) while it is by no means a necessity for Rosita, I'd love for her to be able to take Abraham's unfaithfulness and stick it back in his face with a "Oh, my time with you?  Yeah... that was just me slumming it until something better came along."

[mightysparrow]

Not if she's not attracted to Rick, and I haven't seen anyone provide any information from the show itself to suggest that she is. Yvette Nicole Brown fangirling doesn't count.

 

 

Up to a point. I and some of the other posters on the thread have talked about expecting to see more "opportunistic" relationships in the ZA with less deference to age differences, cultural differences, etc. However, if Michonne just isn't attracted to Rick, their circumstances won't artificially create that sort of attraction. Eugene is aware of his relative lack of options in the ZA, but he hits on young, pretty Tara (before learning that she's a lesbian) and creeps on young, pretty Rosita.

 

I think in a ZA survival situation, you would expect to see pretty young things who feel unable to fend for themselves find the strongest, toughest, baddest alphas around to seduce as a survival tactic. Not surprisingly, Michonne has no need or use for such methods. She can take of herself, thank you very much. If she stays with the group, it's because she values them, not because she needs them to survive. If she's friends with Rick, it's because she cares about him as a person, not because he's an alpha with rage issues who would have stopped at nothing to protect her dead son.

 

 

I dunno. Daryl and Carol being through all that shit together, and Daryl clearly loving Carol deeply, hasn't served to make Daryl magically attracted to Carol when he wasn't before. As much as Daryl loves her, and as close as they are now--could you imagine Michonne running over to Rick in front of the group and hugging him while sobbing like a baby?--he's no closer to being physically attracted to her than he was when they met.

 

If Rick was never Michonne's type, their circumstances won't change that. Michonne has been through a lot, but she's not desperate for a man, either for sexual gratification, romance, or protection, and if she were desperate, I don't see any reason to think that Rick would be the one she would seek out over someone else, especially when there are guys who look like Heath running around.

 

 

The writers have never shown Carol or Michonne pursuing that kind of relationship, either--even passively pursuing in the sense of quietly sighing over a reticent man--unless you count Michonne's pretty-emotionally-fraught-for-a-platonic-relationship thing with Andrea. Carol was cool at best towards Axel and was downright frosty towards Morgan; nor is there any suggestion that she was quietly pining for Tyreese during their travels together, even though he was attractive, a good dude, and the only available man in the vicinity. Michonne has never pursued anyone. That's my point. If Carol or Michonne wanted a man, they could get one. There's nothing in the show to suggest that they are not single by choice.

 

It's also weirdly old-fashioned to suggest that Carol and Michonne are single purely because no dudes hit on them. And really, if Carol and Michonne want to be stone-faced at best and terrifying at worst with pretty much everyone--Carol loves Daryl, and she's a pretty cool customer even with him--they're going to have to make the first move.

 

 

It makes more sense to me to look at it the other way. Michonne or Carol are attractive, capable, grown-ass women in control of their lives and their choices, not starry-eyed teens doodling hearts in their notebooks and sighing about how Scott from Algebra is the dreamiest. To construct them as nothing other than passive potential objects of male desire wasting away for unrequited love of Rick or Daryl because no man will deign to hit on them does them a grave disservice. What about what they want? What about what they choose to pursue? What about their motivations for seeking out or avoiding a romantic relationship? 

 

I can't help but sense a bit of a double standard here. Why is Daryl's demonstrated lack of interest in a romantic connection and consequent singledom acceptable but Michonne and Carol's manlessness a horrible tragedy demonstrative of some bias on the writers' part against romances for "tough" women? It seems to rest on the assumption that they must want to be partnered or should want to be partnered because they're women. Even if you accept the assumption that more women than men want to be partnered--and that assumption's pretty flimsy--there are very good reasons in the story why neither Michonne nor Carol would be particularly interested in locking someone down. 

 

Both Michonne and Carol seem to me like people who due to their pasts desperately need to feel in control of their lives and able to handle the people around them. Since getting involved with someone in a sexual or romantic way--even in a casual fuckbuddy relationship--requires the abandonment of a certain amount of control, I believe it's in character for Michonne and Carol to resist that. Even with Daryl, whom she loves and trusts, Carol still has her walls up.

 

You make a lot of really good points.  I've often said that if Michonne wanted Rick, she'd have him and he'd like being had.  I don't think Rick is Michonne's type.  After Lori and now Jessie, we know what Rick's type is and it ain't Michonne (thank God!).

 

There was a time when it looked like they were chem testing Daryl and Michonne and then it just stopped.  I was told by a friend that the response from a certain segment of the fandom was quite aggressive, which isn't really much of a surprise since that segment is known for being aggressive.  I don't know if that is the reason why it was dropped but I've always thought it was a shame.  It was nice to see Daryl act like a grown man and not the brooding mannish-boy that seems to be so popular.

 

Personally, I think Carol and Rick would be a perfect couple.  They seem to be the others confidant and they share the same outlook on life.  I'm sure Andrew's mom would get over it.

[Eyes High]

You make a lot of really good points.  I've often said that if Michonne wanted Rick, she'd have him and he'd like being had.  I don't think Rick is Michonne's type. After Lori and now Jessie, we know what Rick's type is and it ain't Michonne (thank God!).

 

Personally, I think Carol and Rick would be a perfect couple.  They seem to be the others confidant and they share the same outlook on life.  I'm sure Andrew's mom would get over it.

 

I generally agree with your points, but I see a bit of a contradiction here. If Rick's type is a Lori or Jessie type, then I don't know what  would possibly appeal to him about Carol, who has reached honourary Navy Seal status by this point and uses displays of the type of traditional femininity embodied by Lori and Jessie either as a useful disguise or as a way of subtly mocking the Alexandrians to amuse herself. She's clearly having the time of her life when she's laying it on thick in her interview about how much she misses the "wonderful" Ed; conventional femininity has become either a weapon or a joke to her, sometimes both. Assuming Rick gravitated to Jessie because he seems to gravitate towards helpless, uberfemme women in need of protection, I don't know that the Rick who found Jessie appealing would find anything appealing in cool, calculating, frankly terrifying Carol. Also, I suspect that he will always be a little wary of her, knowing full well what she's capable of. I don't think he trusts her as deeply as he trusts Michonne; he knows Carol has sacrificed lives to protect the group, and that while he's always to date numbered among the group members she's trying to protect (Terminus, e.g.), one day that life could be his. With Michonne, I get the sense that Rick knows Michonne would never really hurt him, even given that she knocked him out when he was being an ass, if for no other reason than he's Carl's father.

 

As for Carol, even though she can be caring, I have yet to see her show anything in the way of attraction to anyone, heterosexual or otherwise. The closest she's ever gotten is her propositioning Daryl, which could easily be read as her joking around to push Daryl's buttons. I think she is supportive of Rick's worldview and leadership and that she deeply cares for Rick--their hug in 5x01 was heartfelt on her part--but that she only sees him as a comrade. She keeps her distance emotionally from him for the same reasons she keeps her distance emotionally from everyone else in the group: she doesn't know whether or not at some point down the road she's going to have to kill him to protect the others. Assuming she was interested in him, she'd have to show some vulnerability for that kind of a relationship to happen, just like anyone else. Badass, flinty Rick still had to give Jessie an opening. Abraham, another tough, gruff type, couldn't just walk up to Sasha and say "You, me, bed, let's go"; he had to lower his defences and admit his interest. Carol's not exempt from that requirement; if she wanted a relationship, she would have to do the work and lower her guard just like everyone else. and that is something Carol strenuously resists, even with her most closely bonded friend Daryl.

 

The more I see of Carol, the more I think she enjoys her aura of frosty, untouchable competence, as much pleasure as it gives her to play the weakling, and as annoyed as she is when Morgan picks up on it. It's when people ignore it--as with poor, hapless Sam, who still seeks out Carol despite her many attempts to warn him off, as with Daryl, whose wry response to her smooth "You don't know me" is "Keep telling yourself that," or as with Morgan, when he tells her that she doesn't like killing--that she gets her back up. The problem with giving off that vibe is that it does tend to dissuade would-be suitors. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's what Carol wanted, though. I don't think Carol likes killing, but I do think she likes being terrifying.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Eyes High

[ghoulina]

I think Carol is probably quite soured on relationships after Ed. Not that she thinks guys like Rick or Daryl would be abusive (and who would stand a chance against her these days anyhow?), but it's like you say - she'd have to let her guard down. Carol likely doesn't ever want to feel that vulnerability again. Who knows? Maybe in time she will find more of a middle ground and be open to it. But not right now. 

 

I would actually think the best match for her would be Morgan. They've both lost a child, they both did a complete 180 at some point in their journey - I think they would get each other and balance each other out. But that's only if he's able to admit it's okay to kill sometimes and she admits that she doesn't have to be a badass 24-7. The bad guys from the woods could kill Jessie (and FPP in the process) and Ron could die trying to pull a fast one on Carl, then Carol and Morgan could adopt Sam and teach him all about wooden sticks and knives. 

Edited November 20, 2015 by ghoulina

[qtpye]

I don't think RositaMatch 3000 has anything to do with weakness or neediness on Rosita's part - not as far as I'm concerned, anyway.  Rather, I think (a) Abraham is being a douche and (b) while it is by no means a necessity for Rosita, I'd love for her to be able to take Abraham's unfaithfulness and stick it back in his face with a "Oh, my time with you?  Yeah... that was just me slumming it until something better came along."

 

 

I don't mind if Rosita is single or hooked up with anyone.  However, if I see her collapse into a puddle of despair because of the beautiful memories she has of making Abraham "dolphin smooth"...I will vomit.

[NoWillToResist]

Personally, I think Carol and Rick would be a perfect couple.  They seem to be the others confidant and they share the same outlook on life.  I'm sure Andrew's mom would get over it.

 

I don't see romance between those two, but I do like their relationship. I was very sad about their rift re: her banishment, because they were so close at the prison, having bonded over Lori/Judith etc. I still remember their genuine happiness (and hug) when they were reunited after Carol was thought to have been killed by walkers. I got teary eyed. :)  I quite liked Rick, Carol, Judith and Carl as a platonic, cobbled-together family.

 

I think Rick and Carol are now basically on the same page: protect the group and if that involves putting people down, well, so be it. They have a shared pragmatism. I find their approach to be far more realistic and intelligent than Morgan's recent pacifism.

[paigow]

Abe is ready to turn the ZA into "Big Love 2.0"...

Abe: [thinking  to self] Hmmm...no idea when I'm gonna see Rosita again...Sasha is pretty hot...if she says no, Michonne might say yes...monogamy is for Rick...

[Mu Shu]

Is it wrong that I kind of wish Michonne would hook up with Eugene, just so I could listen to the internet explode?

Lol the only thing worse than imagining Abraham having sex is imagining Eugene trying to have sex. But I would pair Yoo gene with nurse Zoe for maximum ick factor.

[shanndee]

I think Carol is probably quite soured on relationships after Ed. Not that she thinks guys like Rick or Daryl would be abusive (and who would stand a chance against her these days anyhow?), but it's like you say - she'd have to let her guard down. Carol likely doesn't ever want to feel that vulnerability again. Who knows? Maybe in time she will find more of a middle ground and be open to it. But not right now. 

 

I would actually think the best match for her would be Morgan. They've both lost a child, they both did a complete 180 at some point in their journey - I think they would get each other and balance each other out. But that's only if he's able to admit it's okay to kill sometimes and she admits that she doesn't have to be a badass 24-7. The bad guys from the woods could kill Jessie (and FPP in the process) and Ron could die trying to pull a fast one on Carl, then Carol and Morgan could adopt Sam and teach him all about wooden sticks and knives. 

 

I actually did think that they were laying the groundwork for Carol/Morgan in their first encounter. Of course, that got blown out of the water when their world views were shown to be polar opposites. In their last "encounter" in the episode, I was a little afraid that Carol was going to get herself exiled from Alexandria by killing Morgan to protect the group...but I think she learned her lesson in that regard.

[mightysparrow]

I generally agree with your points, but I see a bit of a contradiction here. If Rick's type is a Lori or Jessie type, then I don't know what  would possibly appeal to him about Carol, who has reached honourary Navy Seal status by this point and uses displays of the type of traditional femininity embodied by Lori and Jessie either as a useful disguise or as a way of subtly mocking the Alexandrians to amuse herself. She's clearly having the time of her life when she's laying it on thick in her interview about how much she misses the "wonderful" Ed; conventional femininity has become either a weapon or a joke to her, sometimes both. Assuming Rick gravitated to Jessie because he seems to gravitate towards helpless, uberfemme women in need of protection, I don't know that the Rick who found Jessie appealing would find anything appealing in cool, calculating, frankly terrifying Carol. Also, I suspect that he will always be a little wary of her, knowing full well what she's capable of. I don't think he trusts her as deeply as he trusts Michonne; he knows Carol has sacrificed lives to protect the group, and that while he's always to date numbered among the group members she's trying to protect (Terminus, e.g.), one day that life could be his. With Michonne, I get the sense that Rick knows Michonne would never really hurt him, even given that she knocked him out when he was being an ass, if for no other reason than he's Carl's father.

 

As for Carol, even though she can be caring, I have yet to see her show anything in the way of attraction to anyone, heterosexual or otherwise. The closest she's ever gotten is her propositioning Daryl, which could easily be read as her joking around to push Daryl's buttons. I think she is supportive of Rick's worldview and leadership and that she deeply cares for Rick--their hug in 5x01 was heartfelt on her part--but that she only sees him as a comrade. She keeps her distance emotionally from him for the same reasons she keeps her distance emotionally from everyone else in the group: she doesn't know whether or not at some point down the road she's going to have to kill him to protect the others. Assuming she was interested in him, she'd have to show some vulnerability for that kind of a relationship to happen, just like anyone else. Badass, flinty Rick still had to give Jessie an opening. Abraham, another tough, gruff type, couldn't just walk up to Sasha and say "You, me, bed, let's go"; he had to lower his defences and admit his interest. Carol's not exempt from that requirement; if she wanted a relationship, she would have to do the work and lower her guard just like everyone else. and that is something Carol strenuously resists, even with her most closely bonded friend Daryl.

 

The more I see of Carol, the more I think she enjoys her aura of frosty, untouchable competence, as much pleasure as it gives her to play the weakling, and as annoyed as she is when Morgan picks up on it. It's when people ignore it--as with poor, hapless Sam, who still seeks out Carol despite her many attempts to warn him off, as with Daryl, whose wry response to her smooth "You don't know me" is "Keep telling yourself that," or as with Morgan, when he tells her that she doesn't like killing--that she gets her back up. The problem with giving off that vibe is that it does tend to dissuade would-be suitors. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's what Carol wanted, though. I don't think Carol likes killing, but I do think she likes being terrifying.

 

Very good comment.

 

Unfortunately, I don't have a response that's any where near as intelligent and well thought out.  If I'm being totally honest, I see Rick and Carol together because I don't care for either one of them.

 

I agree with those who say that Carol and Morgan might be an interesting pairing.  I got the feeling that the show has been hinting at it.  Morgan has suffered a lot and I don't know how I feel about saddling him with Carol.  I don't think she deserves him at all.  But if it helps Morgan in any way, I guess I can live with it.

[Eyes High]

I agree with those who say that Carol and Morgan might be an interesting pairing.  I got the feeling that the show has been hinting at it.  Morgan has suffered a lot and I don't know how I feel about saddling him with Carol.  I don't think she deserves him at all.  But if it helps Morgan in any way, I guess I can live with it.

 

I like the idea of Carol/Morgan, because I love hardass lady/nurturing dude pairings that mess with conventional gender roles. In Carol/Morgan, the warm, expressive, arguably weak, hippie-dippie "All life is precious" partner would be the dude, while the cold, reserved, pragmatic "Of course we have to kill people" partner would be the lady.

 

Also, both Carol and Morgan are occupying arguably unsustainable positions at the moment. Carol is struggling with the psychological cost of being ruthless and pragmatic, and Morgan's kill-no-one philosophy will in all likelihood prove a luxury he'll have to dispense with to protect the group. They seem to be opposed in philosophies now, but maybe they'll inch closer together as they quietly accept that they can't go on as they have been. I also like the idea of Morgan softening up Carol, since in conventional narratives it's usually a nurturing woman softening up a man hardened by combat.

 

Morgan definitely took an interest in Carol in 6x01, to the point where he remarked upon her hypervigilance. Whether it was a romantic or sexual interest, we don't know, but he definitely noticed her, and he does see her; he is right that Carol doesn't like killing. However, to Carol, Morgan's remark, as complimentary as it might otherwise be for someone like Carol who prides herself on being "ready to handle things," sounded like a threat and confirmed that her useless housewife persona wasn't as flawless as she thought it was, which would have been a significant blow to her pride. Thus her "Fuck you," which came out as "Aren't you sweet," but was pretty much a "Fuck you." I also think it's likely Carol has at this point already written off Morgan as yet another useless weakling; she recruited him in 6x02 not for his combat skills but to serve as a dummy hostage to get her to the armory safely, and she blew away Morgan's captive without so much as a "By your leave."  Morgan's got his work cut out for him if he wants to get back in her good graces, let alone put the moves on her.

Edited November 21, 2015 by Eyes High

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

.... and being watched in return.

 

Self Helpers don't offer assistance when they've got things handled ....

[GodsBeloved]

I agree with those who say that Carol and Morgan might be an interesting pairing.  I got the feeling that the show has been hinting at it.  Morgan has suffered a lot and I don't know how I feel about saddling him with Carol.  I don't think she deserves him at all.  But if it helps Morgan in any way, I guess I can live with it.

No mightysparrow NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Not even Morgan can make my indifference to Carol wane LOL

[Eyes High]

Since this thread is ostensibly for all relationships, not merely romantic ones, I have to say that I love Eugene and Tara's friendship. I would have expected a guy like Eugene to ignore Tara once he learned that there was no way sex would be in the offing, but instead, they've developed an adorable bond based on acceptance and trust. I love that Eugene values Tara so much that he overcame his usually insurmountable fear to save her life, something I don't believe he could have done for anyone else. I love that Tara truly believes that Eugene is capable of being a better person despite being fully aware of his misdeeds.

 

Anyway, they are awesome. BFFs for life.

[Ocean Chick]

I hate being shallow, but Morgan's got weird legs.  They bow outwards from the knees downward.  And for that reason, and because he's a puissant little "all life is precious" no-kill zone hippy, I don't want him anywhere near Carol.  She's way too good for him.  Heh.

[Eyes High]

I hate being shallow, but Morgan's got weird legs.  They bow outwards from the knees downward.  And for that reason, and because he's a puissant little "all life is precious" no-kill zone hippy, I don't want him anywhere near Carol.  She's way too good for him.  Heh.

 

I think that after 6x07 we can safely say that the show is building towards something for Carol and Morgan, although it looks at this point as if that something is more likely to be a battle to the death (or, if Morgan wins, at least to a standstill).

 

The show also seems to be suggesting that Carol's killing spree is wearing on her. She seemed tired and out of it when she was rambling to Sam about killing to avoid becoming a monster. She seems to know that Morgan was right when it came to her distaste for killing people. That might lead to a rapprochement if not an actual romance with Morgan, who appreciates her competence and the way she seems "ready to handle thangs" while seeing her as something other than a human weapon. On the other hand, she might harden herself against Morgan even more to armour herself from being infected by his dangerous talk of mercy and thereby becoming the kind of weak, useless creature she hates most.

[Ohwell]

I haven't read the comics but I think it's going to come down to one killing the other.  If so, I hope Morgan kills Carol. 

[Ocean Chick]

I haven't read the comics but I think it's going to come down to one killing the other.  If so, I hope Morgan kills Carol. 

 

Reading the comics wouldn't matter here - Carol was long dead by this point, and Morgan may well have been as well (I'm not a comic reader either, so I can't say).  Carol, at this point, is a free agent, like Daryl, with no story line from the comics to hinder her development.

[Ohwell]

So that means that for the show's purpose, he can kill her. Great!

[Morrigan2575]

I think that after 6x07 we can safely say that the show is building towards something for Carol and Morgan, although it looks at this point as if that something is more likely to be a battle to the death (or, if Morgan wins, at least to a standstill).

The show also seems to be suggesting that Carol's killing spree is wearing on her. She seemed tired and out of it when she was rambling to Sam about killing to avoid becoming a monster. She seems to know that Morgan was right when it came to her distaste for killing people. That might lead to a rapprochement if not an actual romance with Morgan, who appreciates her competence and the way she seems "ready to handle thangs" while seeing her as something other than a human weapon. On the other hand, she might harden herself against Morgan even more to armour herself from being infected by his dangerous talk of mercy and thereby becoming the kind of weak, useless creature she hates most.

I'm massively fascinated by the Rick/Morgan, Rick/Carol and Carol/Morgan relationships. There is an interesting dynamic being built and what's funny is it could have sworn that the direction for this season would be Morgan and Carol vying for Rick's soul/sanity. One pulling Rick towards a kinder/gentler version and the other pulling him towards a colder/more ruthless version.

However, now (unless there a Big change next week). I think it's Carol that's actually caught in the middle. She is aligned with Rick in that she believes we have to do everything to protect the group. However, her interactions with Morgan show just how much she hates this line of thinking and what being a survivor means.

It's a shame because at one point in time it would have been Daryl in Morgan's place (for interesting character dynamics) but I think his relationship with Rick has been pushed aside so they could focus on Morgan/Rick

Edited November 24, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[NorthstarATL]

So that means that for the show's purpose, he can kill her. Great!

It also means that she can take over Alexandria and train all the kids to be the best fighting force the ZA world has seen! Depends upon your preference of course.

[shanndee]

I am so sad that I only have one "like" to click NorthstarATL! :D