Love in the Time of Walkers: Relationships in The Walking Dead

[Timetoread]

Re Rick and Michonne:  I think for me what has always made them so beautiful and inevitable is that they are actually compatible and good for each other.  We don't know much about Michonne's relationship with Mike.  We know that she loved him enough that she carried his memory to keep her going.  But we also know that he let her down in a fundamental way - he was not the strong protector that she needed him to be when it came to their son.  His failure cost their son's life.  He gave up, he wasn't strong enough, he was beaten.  I think from day one what drew Michonne to Rick was her recognizing that this man was motivated almost entirely by the love of his children.  As they grew closer, that fact became louder.  As gross as it was that Rick ripped out Joe's juggular with his teeth and then gutted the other guy out of sheer rage, it showed her the ferocity with which Rick will fight for his son the immense and feral love inside the man.  It didn't turn her off, it endeared her. 

 

This last episode helped me put my finger on something that I was struggling to describe in my many discussions about why they are so good for each other.  So many of these revolved around the many ways Michonne was different/better than Lori.  That she didn't require Rick's protection.  That she was good with his kids.  That he's hot and so is she.  All of that is true but what got me about why it should be Michonne was not the smooching at the end, but his demeanor throughout the whole episode.  Rick was, for the first time since the series started, CONTENT.  He wakes up smiling.  And I think the reason is that Michonne doesn't just fill (in her own way because I am not dimishing his love for his wife) the hole that was occupied by Lori but she also fills the hole that was occupied by Shane.  And for the first time in a long time, Rick feels whole (pun intended).  Yeah, there's an apocalpyse but basically he has everything he needs - healthy, happy and safe kids; his best buddy and partner who also happens to be in the same body as the woman he shares his life with.  Point being, that Michonne isn't just a "love interest" she is the woman who completes Rick.

[lulee]

I'm so used to being on this board to talk about this show that I had forgotten how maybe a more casual viewer might not notice or get elements and how that might color their view of events or characters' interactions. I clicked on the comments on a Facebook post about Rick/Michonne by the official TWD page a few days ago. One of the top comments was by someone who said that the final scene between them didn't make sense because Rick had been into Jessie "who just died last week."

 

I (unspoiled) will guess that the Rick/Michonne scene couldn't fit in until next week's episode due to other plots, but a side effect is that there was no buffer episode between Jessie's death and the beginnings of Richonne, and the line or two about weeks passing and the mention on TTD about it being two-ish months could easily not be heard or seen and those viewers end up thinking that Rick is on the rebound. What the show showed worked for me - the no longer wearing the wearing ring, the close, familiar interactions, the indication that time had passed, the long buildup of the a-romantic importance of Rick and Michonne to each other. I guess some people needed a complete "Previously on SOAP" montage to get where Richonne came from.

[Enero]

Re Rick and Michonne:  I think for me what has always made them so beautiful and inevitable is that they are actually compatible and good for each other.  We don't know much about Michonne's relationship with Mike.  We know that she loved him enough that she carried his memory to keep her going.  But we also know that he let her down in a fundamental way - he was not the strong protector that she needed him to be when it came to their son.  His failure cost their son's life.  He gave up, he wasn't strong enough, he was beaten.  I think from day one what drew Michonne to Rick was her recognizing that this man was motivated almost entirely by the love of his children.  As they grew closer, that fact became louder.  As gross as it was that Rick ripped out Joe's juggular with his teeth and then gutted the other guy out of sheer rage, it showed her the ferocity with which Rick will fight for his son the immense and feral love inside the man.  It didn't turn her off, it endeared her. 

 

This. I recently went back and watched '4x16'. Michonne watching Rick as they were walking to Terminus after the horrific events of the night before, said it all. She wasn't watching him because she thought he was a monster but because she saw with her own eyes (and heard when he was talking to Darryl about what happened) that his children are his life and that he would do whatever it takes, even the unthinkable, to keep them safe. I think this moved her deeply and strengthened what she was beginning to feel for him.

[SimoneS]

One thing I don't understand is why Gimple and Kirkman took Rick's relationship with Jessie so far when they knew that Richonne was on the horizon. They protrayed Rick as falling in love with Jessie when they could have simply shown an attraction to her with conflicted feelings about Michonne.

[SevenStars]

One thing I don't understand is why Gimple and Kirkman took Rick's relationship with Jessie so far when they knew that Richonne was on the horizon. They protrayed Rick as falling in love with Jessie when they could have simply shown an attraction to her with conflicted feelings about Michonne.

I never saw it as Rick falling in love with Jessie. The way the writers wrote the storyline and the way Andrew acted it made me feel like there was something mentally wrong going on with Rick, and Jessie was just the symptom. I never for one second thought Rick would fall for her, there was just something so off about him when it came to Jessie.

I think that's why I wasn't really as mad about it as others. I only hated how they wrote Jessie. I thought they could and should have wrote her better.

[Nashville]

I only hated how they wrote Jessie. I thought they could and should have wrote her better.

 

Not much room to argue with THAT.

[ParadoxLost]

One thing I don't understand is why Gimple and Kirkman took Rick's relationship with Jessie so far when they knew that Richonne was on the horizon. They protrayed Rick as falling in love with Jessie when they could have simply shown an attraction to her with conflicted feelings about Michonne.

Ever since Lori's death its been clear that Rick's emotional well being is a bit like a seesaw (teeter totter for you non Southerners), he goes from I'll build a post apocalypse utopia for my children to I might just have to kill everyone.  I find his relationship with Daryl, Carol, and Michonne fascinating because they basically ballast him when he moves too far away from level.  Those four really do give each other a lot of emotional support that is necessary to the leadership and survival of the group under the stressful conditions that are the new normal.

 

Anyway, that is the reason I didn't like the idea of a Rick and Jessie relationship.  I saw it as Rick seeing someone who was his type, pre-apocalypse.  But he'd always be at one extreme or the other on his see saw and Jesse wouldn't have been able to level him out.  That doesn't mean Jesse was a terrible person or didn't deserve to be loved, she's just not what Rick needs because he has taken on so much responsibility.  He needs someone more like Michonne who is a partner  and can level him off when things get too tough.

 

So that might have been exactly why they did it. Jesse was a demonstration to Rick and the audience that he needs a different kind of woman in the new world and that in turn creates more support for Richonne.

Edited February 26, 2016 by ParadoxLost

[GodsBeloved]

I never saw it as Rick falling in love with Jessie. The way the writers wrote the storyline and the way Andrew acted it made me feel like there was something mentally wrong going on with Rick, and Jessie was just the symptom. I never for one second thought Rick would fall for her, there was just something so off about him when it came to Jessie.

I think that's why I wasn't really as mad about it as others. I only hated how they wrote Jessie. I thought they could and should have wrote her better.

I agree that Rick's crazy was on display there. Though I don't ship Michonne with Rick, I don't like the idea of Rick's crazy being highlighted especially when he's been to crazy town before and then putting Michonne with him.

[Ocean Chick]

I have a problem with the Rick/Jessie relationship just because in the end, it went nowhere and it didn't change anyone.  And mostly that was a problem due to the time jump.  None of the Anderson's mattered, in the end.  We didn't see Rick affected by Jessie's death and his having to chop off her hand.  We didn't see Carol affected by Sam's death - another child she tried not to get close to, but failed.  And we didn't see Michonne affected by having to kill Ron in order to save Rick and Carl.  Nor did we see Carl having any reaction to losing an eye, other than having to do a bit of PT by throwing balls against walls and annoying his father, and being a butthead to Enid.  So why bother having them on the show in the first place.

 

I knew a while ago that they were going to do the Richonne thing, but I imagined it would be quite a bit later, as I haven't seen anything that suggested that they were hot for each other yet.  Friends, yes.  But feeling the need?  Eh.  Whatever.  I just hope the show doesn't feel the need to show us how many Kama Sutra positions they've mastered.  I don't watch this show for the soft porn, thanks.

[AngelaHunter]

The way the writers wrote the storyline and the way Andrew acted it made me feel like there was something mentally wrong going on with Rick, and Jessie was just the symptom.

 

Even though I've been of the opinion for a long time that Rick is crazy, I don't necessarily think his being attracted to a pretty woman has to be a symptom of that craziness. Maybe it was as mundane as he was just horny and saw a woman who turned him on? When the dire immediate danger is over, even temporarily, and the hourly struggle to survive eases, as it did in Alexandria, other things come up, so to speak.:p

[SevenStars]

Even though I've been of the opinion for a long time that Rick is crazy, I don't necessarily think his being attracted to a pretty woman has to be a symptom of that craziness. Maybe it was as mundane as he was just horny and saw a woman who turned him on? When the dire immediate danger is over, even temporarily, and the hourly struggle to survive eases, as it did in Alexandria, other things come up, so to speak.:p

Him being attracted to her wasn't symptoms of being crazy, the problem was the way he acted towards her that made it seems like something was off about him. It was not the attraction that was the problem for me but the way he acted and look when he was around her. It just felt off to me.

As for him being horny and in lust, I didn't get that impression. I would get that, understand it and not have a problem with it but that didn't seems like it to me. That might be the only way people can explain his actions but it didn't seem like that to me.

Edited February 26, 2016 by SevenStars

[SevenStars]

I have a problem with the Rick/Jessie relationship just because in the end, it went nowhere and it didn't change anyone. And mostly that was a problem due to the time jump. None of the Anderson's mattered, in the end. We didn't see Rick affected by Jessie's death and his having to chop off her hand. We didn't see Carol affected by Sam's death - another child she tried not to get close to, but failed. And we didn't see Michonne affected by having to kill Ron in order to save Rick and Carl. Nor did we see Carl having any reaction to losing an eye, other than having to do a bit of PT by throwing balls against walls and annoying his father, and being a butthead to Enid. So why bother having them on the show in the first place.

I knew a while ago that they were going to do the Richonne thing, but I imagined it would be quite a bit later, as I haven't seen anything that suggested that they were hot for each other yet. Friends, yes. But feeling the need? Eh. Whatever. I just hope the show doesn't feel the need to show us how many Kama Sutra positions they've mastered. I don't watch this show for the soft porn, thanks.

I differ from you because I don't have any problem with the time jump as a results of how badly they wrote Jessie/Rick and Jessie with her family.

They wrote them like they were cows that were being feed in order to slaughter them later on. It didn't feel like these were characters that were meant to be anything more than "shocking" deaths for the show. And the worst part is that it was boring to watch. As a result, I just wanted them to get to the slaughter part and keep things moving, so I can get to an actual storyline that is meant to do something for the characters on the show. Because of that, I was actually grateful for the time jump since I didn't want to waste anymore time on anything that had to do with Jessie, when the writers didn't bother to develop the characters and their relationships with other people enough for me to care.

I agree with those who wished the writers hadn't included Jessie on the show since they had no intention of actually doing something with her and her boys. It was stupid and a waste of screen time that could have been spent on other characters.

Edited February 26, 2016 by SevenStars

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I've never seen it that way. I always got the impression that he was really ill at ease with what he sees as women who are "above him" and who may have crossed a street to avoid him pre-apocalypse. Denise is educated and well-spoken and I think he's intimidated by those qualities in a woman. JMO. I don't think he really cares about what anyone does in their bedrooms.

 

ETA: It's been my experience that most men, when learning that women are lesbians, just hope they can watch!:p

 

Hey now, its not fair to generalize all males just because certain things trip my trigger... although, to be fair & honest, there isn't much about the female form that doesn't do it for me.  ;P

[NorthstarATL]

One thing I don't understand is why Gimple and Kirkman took Rick's relationship with Jessie so far when they knew that Richonne was on the horizon. They protrayed Rick as falling in love with Jessie when they could have simply shown an attraction to her with conflicted feelings about Michonne.

They needed, I think, to show that Rick, in his natural habitat, was open to "romance", and that it is indeed in his nature to gravitate toward a woman who would need him in a way that the women in his group no longer did, and who had the bonus of kids and cleanliness. The only obstacle was the husband, who also served as the way in: the villain from whom he must rescue his intended.

   They needed to show his unhealthy obsessive side in order to illuminate the healthiness of a partnering with Michonne.

[Pete Martell]

I knew a while ago that they were going to do the Richonne thing, but I imagined it would be quite a bit later, as I haven't seen anything that suggested that they were hot for each other yet.  Friends, yes.  But feeling the need?  Eh.  Whatever.  I just hope the show doesn't feel the need to show us how many Kama Sutra positions they've mastered.  I don't watch this show for the soft porn, thanks.

 

I don't think anything they do can be on the level of the early episode where they all but showed Shane about to take Lori from behind. Even the post-coitus scene was, for me, more artistically styled than sexual. The kiss on the couch was romantic and full of longing, more than lust. 

 

I've always felt like Rick has desired Michonne, along with the respect he developed for her with time. I don't think it's been as prominent on Michonne's side, as I think Rick + his kids is more of the focal point in how she was written, but there were a few bits that made me wonder, like her teasing him over needing a razor.

They needed, I think, to show that Rick, in his natural habitat, was open to "romance", and that it is indeed in his nature to gravitate toward a woman who would need him in a way that the women in his group no longer did, and who had the bonus of kids and cleanliness. The only obstacle was the husband, who also served as the way in: the villain from whom he must rescue his intended.

   They needed to show his unhealthy obsessive side in order to illuminate the healthiness of a partnering with Michonne.

 

I think that was a part of it, although I also wonder if they even realized how badly Rick came across last season in how he was with Jessie. 

 

I do think her main purpose was an "awakening" so he could move on. I could have done without that. It's just lazy and cheap, and in this case, just dragged the whole show down for months on end. I wish they'd just had him move on with Michonne without any woman in-between Lori and Michonne.

[SimoneS]

I totally enjoyed Richonne's kissing on the couch. I thought it was both loving and lustful. The morning after bed scene was artistically styled to reflect their connection. Maggie and Glenn had a suggestive love scene in season three, then there was Abraham and Rosita's short sex scene. I am always perplexed the fans who embrace the show's violence and brutality, but balk at the few sex scenes, then there was the near hysteria from a vocal minority over Aaron and Eric's kiss. 

Edited February 29, 2016 by SimoneS

[SevenStars]

I totally enjoyed Richonne's kissing on the couch. I thought it was both loving and lustful. The morning after bed scene was artistically styled to reflect their connection. Maggie and Glenn had a suggestive love scene in season three, then there was Abraham and Rosita's short sex scene. I am always perplexed the fans who embrace the show's violence and brutality, but balked at the few sex scenes, then there was the near hysteria from a vocal minority over Aaron and Eric's kiss.

I think it's cause society lead us to believe that:

Romance= weakness, stupidity, and wrong

Violence = strength, intelligence, and right.

I think it is mostly because romance is closely associate with women (same with shipping) and violence is associate with men. Therefore, the thing associated with women have to inferior and not needdd. While the thing associated with men have to be superior and needed. That's why a lot of people assume that the romance added to this show is done as a way to draw women in. But I have two brothers who were so happy that Richone happened and they also love the violence, so.....

The truth is that romance and sex is part of our human existence, just like violence. So to have these people survive and be alive without them exploring that side of their humanity is stupid, and unrealistic.

Edited February 29, 2016 by SevenStars

[GodsBeloved]

I do think her main purpose was an "awakening" so he could move on. I could have done without that. It's just lazy and cheap, and in this case, just dragged the whole show down for months on end. I wish they'd just had him move on with Michonne without any woman in-between Lori and Michonne.

My thing is why use Jessie in that way. Why not simply have Michonne be the catalyst of this. Things could have played out with them in the same manner without Jessie being inserted.

[DearEvette]

Viewing Jessie's character trajectory in the context of Rick and Michonne's romance, it seems pretty clear in hindsight that she was the necessary "relationship" he had to have in order to clarify his mind re: Michonne.  And also in hindsight, given the effect Rick's crew seem to have on everyone they interact with, the likelihood of her surviving was really low anyway.

 

Lori was Rick's only other romantic relationship in the show.  But when the Z-A happened he was in a coma. And it was left to Shane to be the one to see to the safety of his wife and child. Not Rick.  Rick didn't get to see the gradual rise of the pandemic.  He woke up in with it in full bore.  Up until Alexandria he hadn't come across a community that was so reminiscent of what he remembered.  So here you had a pretty woman, who probably strongly reminded him of the the type of woman he would have been attracted to pre-Z-A.  In a place that you can close your eyes and almost imagine is just like before and even better.... she has a controlling husband.  She needs protecting.  It is no wonder Rick's reaction to her felt off and really rather unhealthy. I think he let himself fall into a make-believe love because outside of everything else is harkens back to what used to be normal and that thing that got stolen from him before he could really adjust.

 

But in the end she isn't the right person for him she's too soft.  This isn't the same world anymore.  The Rick that now exists couldn't thrive with Jessie.

 

I think of Glenn as having a similar trajectory.  Glen had been out and about in the Z-A longer than Rick, so I could imagine by the time he got to the relative tranquility of Hershel's farm he felt a little like what Rick probably felt like when he got to Alexandria.  He got into a relationship with Maggie rather quickly.  But unlike Jessie, Maggie hardened up real nice and quick.

[Ocean Chick]

I just find it incredibly sad how very "Hollywood" these relationships are.  All the young females (Maggie, Sasha, Tara, Rosita and Michonne) have found love. Some (Sasha and Tara) more than once.  All the males - even the middle aged ones like Rick, minus the weirdos like Eugene and Daryl - have found love.  But the middle aged woman is alone.  Guess once you can't make pancakes, you aren't worth wasting Bisquick on. 

[GoldenHera]

Rick and Michonne's relationship is definitely not Hollywood. How many black women are paired with the white lead in TV and movies? Not many, and especially not darker skinned black women. I'd also say Tara and Denise aren't the "hot lesbian couple" that may be considered Hollywood either. From a character perspective, I could understand why Carol hasn't sought out romance. Considering the emotional distress she's been in (dealing with an abusive husband, losing an abusive husband, losing her daughter, murdering her surrogate daughter), I could see her not being interested in making herself vulnerable to another intense emotional relationship. 

[SimoneS]

Rick and Michonne's relationship is definitely not Hollywood. How many black women are paired with the white lead in TV and movies? Not many, and especially not darker skinned black women. I'd also say Tara and Denise aren't the "hot lesbian couple" that may be considered Hollywood either. 

 

I agree. There is no way that these TWD relationships are Hollywood in any capacity. In addition to Richonne, Glenn and Maggie, an Asian male with a white female is rarely seen in Hollywood tv and movies, Abraham is dating Rosita identified as Hispanic and lusting after African American Sasha. All the relationships on TWD defy Hollywood stereotypical romances. I cannot help thinking that this is part of what makes some people uncomfortable the show's romances. Vanity Fair had this great article on this very topic: http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/02/rick-michonne-walking-dead-richonne-interracial-couple

 

Regarding Carol, I can agree that a middle age woman not having a romance is Hollywood ageism, but the diversity of interracial couples that are prominently featured on TWD makes me give them a pass on this one.

Edited March 1, 2016 by SimoneS

[RedheadZombie]

Viewing Jessie's character trajectory in the context of Rick and Michonne's romance, it seems pretty clear in hindsight that she was the necessary "relationship" he had to have in order to clarify his mind re: Michonne.  And also in hindsight, given the effect Rick's crew seem to have on everyone they interact with, the likelihood of her surviving was really low anyway.

 

It may sound hokey, but I agree Rick and Michonne wasn't possible until there was a Rick and Jessie.  I personally don't think that Rick was attracted to Michonne until the other night.  I think Rick was in a fog after Lori died, and as much as people love to trash Lori, he loved her.  I think Jessie helped Rick realize he was still a sexual being, and once he was open to that side of himself again, he could feel the attraction to Michonne. 

 

I'm just watching the third season of "Masters of Sex" and who do I see but our Beth in a brunette wig. She's applying to be a  - Ta Dah! - sex surrogate. Her credentials are mostly that she was able, by her soothing presence, to help the stallions perform with the mares at a horse breeding farm.

 

That storyline traumatized me.  All I could think was, I saw Beth's boobs and butt!  I saw Beth's boobs and butt!

[SevenStars]

I agree with the above that most of the romantic relationships we have on TWD are romances that Hollywood twist themselves into pretzels not to showcase.

With that said, I don't want Daryl and Carol but I hope before it is all said and done Carol does get a love interest who can show her that having a romantic relationship doesn't have to include physical abuse. I want her to have the type of relationship in which the man accept and appreciate the woman she is.

[Ocean Chick]

Regarding Carol, I can agree that a middle age woman not having a romance is Hollywood ageism, but the diversity of interracial couples that are prominently featured on TWD makes me give them a pass on this one.

 

 

 

I do hope you're not saying that as long as they avoid racism, then ageism is okay?  They are separate things, and both are bad.  Equally bad.

 

I could ship Carol with Jesus.  He's about the first one I've seen who is her equal, but in character as well as looks.

[Eyes High]

I agree. There is no way that these TWD relationships Hollywood in any capacity. In addition to Richonne, Glenn and Maggie, an Asian male with a white female is rarely seen in Hollywood tv and movies, Abraham is dating Rosita identified as Hispanic and lusting after African American Sasha. All the relationships on TWD defy Hollywood stereotypical romances. I cannot help thinking that this is part of what makes some people uncomfortable the show's romances. Vanity Fair had this great article on this very topic: http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/02/rick-michonne-walking-dead-richonne-interracial-couple

 

Regarding Carol, I can agree that a middle age woman not having a romance is Hollywood ageism, but the diversity of interracial couples that are prominently featured on TWD makes me give them a pass on this one.

 

Agreed. There's nothing stereotypically Hollywood about the white male lead of a show making cow eyes at a dark-skinned black female character (with dreads, no less).

 

Also, some of the women described in the referenced post as "young females" are anything but. Michonne is hardly a "young female"; she's played by an actress who's 38 and only four years younger than Rick's actor. Maggie and Sasha's actresses are 34 and 31, respectively. Younger than Melissa McBride (50), of course, but young? Eh.

 

The referenced post also complains about Carol being love-starved while the guys all get love interests...except for "weirdos" Eugene and Daryl. I love Carol, but she is as much a "weirdo" as Daryl, and she assiduously spurns authentic, positive interactions with others, as evidenced by her hostile, even murderous treatment of the one person who has shown consistent interest in trying to form a connection with her (Morgan), and her touchiness with Daryl despite her love for him. Carol being a glorious, aloof "queen bitch" is fantastic, but her frosty hauteur towards pretty much everyone--even, occasionally, her platonic soulmate Daryl--doesn't exactly lend itself to grand passion. In recent seasons, Carol has consistently rejected the idea of showing vulnerability to anyone, and her losses have only solidified her sturdy, impenetrable (so to speak) shell. She won't find romantic love unless she invites it, and Carol has shown no interest in inviting it, for whatever reason (abusive relationship, need to feel secure, distrust, etc.). And really, if she's happy with that, who's to say that there's anything wrong with that? Isn't it a disservice to female characters to reduce them to their romantic relationships? Isn't it awesome that there's a female character whose character arc has nothing to do with romantic love or sex?

 

 

I'd also say Tara and Denise aren't the "hot lesbian couple" that may be considered Hollywood either.

There's nothing male gaze-y about Tara and Denise or their relationship, which is great. They dress for comfort, not sexiness, and whatever sex life they have (they are apparently sharing a bed on a regular basis given Denise's comments about Tara talking in her sleep) takes place off-screen.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Eyes High

[SimoneS]

Deleted because end of.

Edited March 1, 2016 by SimoneS

[LeeMoon]

Newbie here, hello!

 

Last episode finally got me going on analyzing TWD again, hope it's ok to just jump in.

 

I'm confused by Abe's internal thoughts. I didn't get the impression Sasha was interested in him, I thought she was rejecting him by mentioning Rosita. He might want to settle down, but I think the Sasha he's dreaming about has very little to do with what Sasha wants. I might be wrong here, but that was my impression.

 

About Jessie, it made perfect sense to me that Rick was attracted to her. I had a sense in the beginning of the show that if it weren't for the zombies, Rick and Lori would have gotten a divorce and Rick would have ended with someone like Jessie. Michonne is the right partner for the new Rick, I don't think the old Rick would have considered being with a straight-forward strong woman like Michonne.

 

Daryl is a blank. Seasons 1 and 2 I thought he was straight and probably had casual sex in the past but no meaningful relationships. Then there was that scene with one of the Governor's man, when Rick was having a meeting with the Governor, where suddenly Daryl showed interest in someone and I sensed some sexual tension, and I thought wait, maybe he's gay. But then he reverted to not showing any interest in anyone, in spite of the fact there are different kinds of women around him and they are not constantly on the run anymore. I see his relationship with Carol as more of a mother-son dynamic, and I didn't sense any sexual interest towards Beth, either. Now he reads like asexual.

 

Carol, I think, is not open to any new romantic relationships right now. She does have sexual needs but she is unwilling to connect with anyone.

[Eyes High]

Daryl is a blank. Seasons 1 and 2 I thought he was straight and probably had casual sex in the past but no meaningful relationships. Then there was that scene with one of the Governor's man, when Rick was having a meeting with the Governor, where suddenly Daryl showed interest in someone and I sensed some sexual tension, and I thought wait, maybe he's gay. But then he reverted to not showing any interest in anyone, in spite of the fact there are different kinds of women around him and they are not constantly on the run anymore. I see his relationship with Carol as more of a mother-son dynamic, and I didn't sense any sexual interest towards Beth, either. Now he reads like asexual.

 

Word of God is that Daryl is straight, but I agree that he reads like an asexual character. "Blank" is a good way to put it. Mileage varies on this, but I have yet to see him show sexual or romantic interest in anyone, male or female. Eugene is as celibate as Daryl, but at least Eugene has shown sexual interest in and hit on people. Nor has Daryl alluded to any past relationships or entanglements with either gender.

 

To be fair to Daryl, his lack of discussion of a sexual/romantic past and his lack of open interest in anyone might be a function of his introverted personality and/or trust issues stemming from his abuse as a child. With that said, he doesn't read as someone who is repressing sexual/romantic feelings as a response to past traumas; rather, he reads to me as someone who doesn't have any such feelings to begin with.

 

The interesting thing for me about Carol and Daryl is that although they seem to love each other deeply, there's a very clear, very distinct line in the sand drawn between the two and not only will neither of them step over that line, they seem to prefer things that way. Daryl and Carol seem to trust each other to respect each others' boundaries to the point where they can flop down on the same bed together with no nervousness or tension about whether it's some sort of romantic prelude or sexual overture (since they both know from the start that it isn't). It seems to me that both characters find comfort in that sort of relationship, where they are very understanding of each other without worrying about a sexual or romantic dimension to their relationship. To me, Carol and Daryl have a platonic relationship that's, well, the platonic ideal of that kind of relationship. It could turn into something else, but I think it's awesome the way it is.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Eyes High

[LeeMoon]

To be fair to Daryl, his lack of discussion of a sexual/romantic past and his lack of open interest in anyone might be a function of his introverted personality and/or trust issues stemming from his abuse as a child. With that said, he doesn't read as someone who is repressing sexual/romantic feelings as a response to past traumas; rather, he reads to me as someone who doesn't have any such feelings to begin with.

 

That's true. I think this is why his character felt a little flat in recent seasons. Relationships are many times a source of conflict and a way to learn about the characters. We learned most about Daryl from his inner dialogue with the hallucination of his brother. His main conflict was feeling inferior, a sissy and an outsider. Once that got resolved, he was left with no conflict and no way for us to connect with his inner thoughts since he never opens up to anyone.

 

If he doesn't want to have a relationship and he is not bothered by not having sex, then there is no conflict beyond the one that was resolved. Except for us, because that makes things somewhat boring. And the cow doesn't count.

[Pete Martell]

I just find it incredibly sad how very "Hollywood" these relationships are.  All the young females (Maggie, Sasha, Tara, Rosita and Michonne) have found love. Some (Sasha and Tara) more than once.  All the males - even the middle aged ones like Rick, minus the weirdos like Eugene and Daryl - have found love.  But the middle aged woman is alone.  Guess once you can't make pancakes, you aren't worth wasting Bisquick on. 

 

I think part of it is plot narrative and fan reaction. 

 

From the start of Carol's popularity, her relationship with Daryl has been very prominent in how a lot of fans see her. While I don't think that's the only reason they've avoided giving her romance (some may be age, some may be that she's a guarded, isolated character - she had to shut herself off to survive), I do think that may be part of it. For instance, while it wasn't a huge uproar, I remember some fans being unhappy when she mildly flirted with Axel. And then there was the ugly Beth/Daryl/Carol fan wars, which I get the feeling left both Melissa and Norman rattled. 

 

I think they missed a trick in not developing her relationship with Tyreese. I don't know if it would have worked romantically, but Melissa and Chad Coleman had a believable bond.

 

I feel like they've written Carol into a corner - I'd love for them to surprise us and have her have some fun with a man (that older guy in Alexandria who wears a lot of flannel shirts, maybe) - but I think they are very cautious about her and about Daryl.

 

In terms of Michonne, it took years to get where she is now, so I think they were cautious about her as well. I'm just glad they finally decided to go for it. 

[Pete Martell]

That's true. I think this is why his character felt a little flat in recent seasons. Relationships are many times a source of conflict and a way to learn about the characters. We learned most about Daryl from his inner dialogue with the hallucination of his brother. His main conflict was feeling inferior, a sissy and an outsider. Once that got resolved, he was left with no conflict and no way for us to connect with his inner thoughts since he never opens up to anyone.

 

If he doesn't want to have a relationship and he is not bothered by not having sex, then there is no conflict beyond the one that was resolved. Except for us, because that makes things somewhat boring. And the cow doesn't count.

 

I think the main problem with Daryl is he became iconic. He became THE symbol of the show to many fans and to the powers that be. And that's like a straitjacket, because what do you do? What if it drives fans away? What is too much? 

 

I remember when they had him as the "rock star" of the prison in early season 4, and how Norman wasn't thrilled with this, and for me that was sort of the start of not knowing what to do with him. The relationship with Beth felt like a combination of fan bait and an excuse for emo porn (complete with shots of Daryl self-harming to get over her death), and everything about his relationship with Carol has become increasingly hesitant with each season.

 

For me the biggest point in the last 3 seasons that Daryl really felt more open was when he befriended Aaron and Eric. I don't mean because he's gay, I just thought this opened up new avenues for him, especially since I think Aaron was also abused as a child. Unfortunately it seems like the show put Daryl with them less for a plot and more to make sure viewers didn't reject them. It's too bad.

[LeeMoon]

I think part of it is plot narrative and fan reaction. 

 

From the start of Carol's popularity, her relationship with Daryl has been very prominent in how a lot of fans see her. While I don't think that's the only reason they've avoided giving her romance (some may be age, some may be that she's a guarded, isolated character - she had to shut herself off to survive), I do think that may be part of it. For instance, while it wasn't a huge uproar, I remember some fans being unhappy when she mildly flirted with Axel. And then there was the ugly Beth/Daryl/Carol fan wars, which I get the feeling left both Melissa and Norman rattled. 

 

I feel like they've written Carol into a corner - I'd love for them to surprise us and have her have some fun with a man (that older guy in Alexandria who wears a lot of flannel shirts, maybe) - but I think they are very cautious about her and about Daryl.

 

 

I wasn't watching the show when the shipping was strong, so I didn't know the fans had a war over Carol or Beth. Beth is dead, sadly because I liked her, and they have been keeping Carol and Daryl apart. I wonder how many people actually ship Carol with Daryl anymore.

 

I loved how Carol had a healthy sex drive and was flirtatious. The point of change I think was when Axel was shot. Carol turned into a cold protector with no room for romance. I don't see any man in the group that can be her partner right now.

 

I used to think Abe and her could have connected, but he seems to love fantasizing about younger women and is not emotionally mature enough for someone like Carol.

 

I think the main problem with Daryl is he became iconic. He became THE symbol of the show to many fans and to the powers that be. And that's like a straitjacket, because what do you do? What if it drives fans away? What is too much? 

 

I remember when they had him as the "rock star" of the prison in early season 4, and how Norman wasn't thrilled with this, and for me that was sort of the start of not knowing what to do with him. The relationship with Beth felt like a combination of fan bait and an excuse for emo porn (complete with shots of Daryl self-harming to get over her death), and everything about his relationship with Carol has become increasingly hesitant with each season.

 

For me the biggest point in the last 3 seasons that Daryl really felt more open was when he befriended Aaron and Eric. I don't mean because he's gay, I just thought this opened up new avenues for him, especially since I think Aaron was also abused as a child. Unfortunately it seems like the show put Daryl with them less for a plot and more to make sure viewers didn't reject them. It's too bad.

 

Ah, that "rock star" thing... *shudder*. That was horrible.

 

I might be in the minority here, but I didn't like how Daryl reacted to Aaron and Eric during their dinner. I know Daryl is a good guy, but he grew up in an environment that wasn't kind to gays. Adding to that his insecurities about being a real man, and I thought it was silly Daryl was so cool around them. Good point about using him as a tool to make the audience except them. 

 

One thing that dinner solidified was that he wasn't gay. If Daryl were gay and closeted he would have freaked out, even if just a little, over the thought that they invited him because they thought he was gay. That whole dinner was a wasted opportunity for a spaghetti gag, IMO.

[Eyes High]

I might be in the minority here, but I didn't like how Daryl reacted to Aaron and Eric during their dinner. I know Daryl is a good guy, but he grew up in an environment that wasn't kind to gays. Adding to that his insecurities about being a real man, and I thought it was silly Daryl was so cool around them. Good point about using him as a tool to make the audience except them. 

 

I agree that it was strange. Daryl seems like he would be free with the bigoted slurs, almost reflexively, and then when he got to know and like the objects of his bigotry, he would stop it. Sort of like what happened with Glenn, except with homophobic slurs instead of racist slurs. With that said, I kind of liked that Daryl was so chill with Eric and Aaron. It was nice.

 

As for Abe, he's kind of a silly character, isn't he? I don't think Carol would have any time for his nonsense. If Carol does get close to anyone in that way, at this point, it would likely be Morgan. Morgan realized Carol was unable to kill him, despite wanting to do so. For stone cold killer Carol, who's made a hobby out of dispatching acquaintances who threaten her or her crew, that's the equivalent of a roomful of roses. Also, Carol and Morgan could balance each other out: Carol could temper Morgan's reckless idealism, and Morgan could pull Carol back from the brink in her darker moments.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Eyes High

[Ocean Chick]

The only man I could picture Carol with currently is Jesus.  He's strong and capable, and seemingly intelligent.  Tobin of the flannel shirts is too much a weenie.  As are FPP, Spencer, Eugene and Morgan.  Daryl is too emo and dirty.  Poor Carol doesn't have many choices.

[DEM]

I want her to have the type of relationship in which the man accept and appreciate the woman she is.

 

If they must go there, please don't let it be Morgan.

Edited March 1, 2016 by DEM

[Pete Martell]

I agree that it was strange. Daryl seems like he would be free with the bigoted slurs, almost reflexively, and then when he got to know and like the objects of his bigotry, he would stop it. Sort of like what happened with Glenn, except with homophobic slurs instead of racist slurs. With that said, I kind of liked that Daryl was so chill with Eric and Aaron. It was nice.

 

I think Daryl was mostly bigoted with Glenn because he'd spent most of his time alone with Merle, who was a hardcore racist. While I don't know if he'd be completely accepting, I think he trusted Aaron enough and had had enough experience with wider groups of people since the CDB days that he was OK with them.

The only man I could picture Carol with currently is Jesus.  He's strong and capable, and seemingly intelligent.  Tobin of the flannel shirts is too much a weenie.  As are FPP, Spencer, Eugene and Morgan.  Daryl is too emo and dirty.  Poor Carol doesn't have many choices.

 

I have to admit a Carol/Spencer fling would interest me, although I'd be wary of it turning into being about mother issues.

[jsbt]

I could get down with Carol and Morgan largely because they're both absolutely incredible actors and I think the characters are both rubbing off on each other. If there wasn't something about Morgan's (kind-hearted but myopic) worldview getting under Carol's skin she would've taken him out by now or would have had to be stopped. At the same time, I think Carol's also absolutely necessary to get Morgan to accept the way things are. Something is going on there but whether it's just about an exchange of consciousness or something more visceral is an open question.

Edited March 2, 2016 by jsbt

[feverfew]

I'm confused by Abe's internal thoughts. I didn't get the impression Sasha was interested in him, I thought she was rejecting him by mentioning Rosita. He might want to settle down, but I think the Sasha he's dreaming about has very little to do with what Sasha wants. I might be wrong here, but that was my impression.

 

That's really interesting, because I read it the complete opposite way: That Sasha is interested, but Abraham hasn't done anything in regards to Rosita (as per her request) and that's the reason she's walking away from their daily "walk". Because it is too hard. From the opening scene in the last episode, I think we're supposed to interfere that they are friends; that despite Sasha calling him an idiot (or maybe because she is) they have that easiness we also see with Michonne and Rick (just without the same focus storywise, because they're not the main characters). It's also interesting that when Abraham flashes to Sasha after sex with Rosita, it's not a physical memory like a touch, but a small gesture, he recollects. Almost a military one.

 

I think someone in the writers' room is a big proponent of friendship-turned-romantic, which for me are the best kind. The most lasting ones.

[Timetoread]

I think Daryl was mostly bigoted with Glenn because he'd spent most of his time alone with Merle, who was a hardcore racist. While I don't know if he'd be completely accepting, I think he trusted Aaron enough and had had enough experience with wider groups of people since the CDB days that he was OK with them.

 

The interesting thing - and I'm saying this as a black person - is that I don't think either Daryl OR Merle were hard core racists or any -ists.  I think Daryl is a Big Brother's boy in the way other men are Mama's boys.  He acted as he thought Merle would have him act.  But without Merle constantly bringing him back into a worldview, Daryl is very much a live and let live type.  They only showed it once or twice and alluded to it in the script a couple of times, but he was also becoming very close with Michonne and the two of them used to go on runs together.

 

Merle I found to be very interesting and they killed him off just when he got to be the most interesting.  For as racist and sexist as he supposedly was, it was Merle who stood up to Rick and finally made the decision without Rick to let Michonne go.  He was actually worried for her (he knew what the Gov was capable of).  He also respected her.  I think Merle at his core was every ounce as sensitive and in need of love as Daryl.  He played tough and played mean because that was the only way he knew how to survive.  But they juxtaposed him with the Governor - THAT was hardcore.  THAT was mean.  Merle at his worst was never like that man and he was sickened by the Governor.  Merle loved Daryl completely and he never stopped looking for and asking about Daryl.  Before the SS Richonne ever set sail, I recalled the scene of Michonne and Merle in the car and thought - hmmm.  Wouldn't it be fun to watch that man grow to love that black woman.  Had he lived, he would have.  I am sure of it.  He died a better man just by having been briefly associated with her.  While I love Michy and would love to give her the credit for that, my bigger point is that one cannot bring out of someone what is not already in them.  Merle never got the second chance that Daryl did, but I feel that just like Daryl, healthy love and environment would have changed him.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Timetoread

[LeeMoon]

Merle I found to be very interesting and they killed him off just when he got to be the most interesting.  For as racist and sexist as he supposedly was, it was Merle who stood up to Rick and finally made the decision without Rick to let Michonne go. 

 

Very interesting post, didn't quote it all for saving space.

 

I think Merle had a very military sensibility about things. You do what you do in order to survive, and you protect your own. He had no problem with not helping the Hispanic family and then rubbing them blind. Daryl was the one that made the decision to help them and then stopped Merle. I don't think Merle was a hardcore racist, but he wasn't exactly a humanist either.

 

In the army, soldiers say the worst slurs to each other and yet they die protecting each other. Merle talked big with the insults, but I think when it came down to who he cared for, skin color wasn't the main issue so much as family, or in the army his unit. I do give Michonne credit that at a crossroad point for Merle, she helped him see beyond his initial narrow view of family. He was conflicted over what the Governor was going to do her, but I think he needed the personal contact with her to make the decision to sacrifice himself instead.

 

Long story short - I agree with you. I don't think Merle would have ever completely changed enough to sit with a gay couple and not make any rude comments, but it was interesting to watch his character make the right choice at the end.

[Eyes High]

I could get down with Carol and Morgan largely because they're both absolutely incredible actors and I think the characters are both rubbing off on each other. If there wasn't something about Morgan's (kind-hearted but myopic) worldview getting under Carol's skin she would've taken him out by now or would have had to be stopped. At the same time, I think Carol's also absolutely necessary to get Morgan to accept the way things are. Something is going on there but whether it's just about an exchange of consciousness or something more visceral is an open question.

 

It's an interesting question whether Carol will be weakened by Morgan's influence, or whether he'll be toughened up by hers. I agree that there appears to be some sort of exchange going on between the two.

 

Morgan and Carol are both right and both wrong. Morgan is right that Carol doesn't like killing, but he's wrong that killing is never necessary. Carol is right that sometimes, killing is required, but she's wrong to pretend that killing is something she can do easily and naturally at no personal cost. It will be interesting to see if the two reach some sort of rapprochement. It seemed as if Morgan was quietly acknowledging that he'd won their argument when she said (more to herself than to him) that she should have killed him, and he said "You can't."

 

My take is that Morgan is the only one who is willing to point out the c***** in Carol's armour, and that terrifies her. Daryl knows she's fucked up but is smart enough to leave well enough alone, but Morgan gets in her face and confronts her. He immediately identified that her facade of maternal helplessness was an act. He told her that she didn't have to kill people, and that she didn't like it. He refused to step aside and let her murder the Wolf. He also confirmed that he was right about Carol, that she was emotionally unable to kill him and that's why she lost their fight. Morgan is Carol's worst nightmare: someone who not only sees her weaknesses or vulnerabilities but who is always pointing them out, and whom she can't just shrug off the way she does with Daryl or conveniently murder. For someone like Carol, who has invested so much in being safely untouchable and unknowable (thus her pointed "You don't know me" to Daryl in Consumed), someone like Morgan, who understands her and isn't afraid to point that out, is worse than a whole city full of walkers. However, there can never be any real intimacy without vulnerability. Even though she hates it, Carol is raw and vulnerable with Morgan in a way she isn't with any other character. That creates a possibility for a real relationship between the two, whether it's a platonic friendship or something else, that I don't think she can have with anyone else...not because Daryl doesn't understand her, but because he doesn't get under her skin the way Morgan does.

 

Morgan is the living embodiment of the truth that Carol desperately fears: being the one-woman army that she needs to be for her own peace of mind is killing her inside. Carol's "strength," meaning her cool willingness to kill and take drastic measures other people cannot or will not take to protect the community, is based on a lie; she secretly hates it, and Morgan knows it. Rambo Carol is bullshit, and Morgan knows it. And if Morgan, with his anti-killing philosophy, is actually right, that it's not necessary to kill to protect others, that makes Carol's trail of dead bodies a lie, and Carol will have destroyed her soul for nothing. That's why Carol jumped at the opportunity to try to silence Morgan permanently, and why she was so visibly conflicted about it: he's the external embodiment of the little voice of doubt inside of her telling her that she has done terrible things that she didn't need to do, and that her current path will lead her nowhere good. That scares Carol, as well it should, but it also creates the possibility for an authentic relationship: no fake sweetness, no stone-faced serenity, just truth. 

 

The exciting thing about Carol/Morgan is that it's not just Morgan pushing Carol to be less lethally aggressive; Carol is pushing Morgan to be more lethally aggressive. He used potentially lethal force against her when she confronted him in the MSF. Morgan was just as horrified by his willingness to use deadly force against Carol as Carol was by her inability to kill Morgan. There's a neat sort of symmetry there.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Eyes High

[jsbt]

I agree with a lot of that, but at the same time I think more frequently than not it is very necessary for Carol to kill. They would not have survived Terminus if she hadn't taken that place apart, and IMO Lizzie couldn't be allowed to live. That's just two examples. The mistake Carol makes is going to that place every time, or rather hardening herself too much against the ramifications of it. Both Rick and Daryl found a medium in between the two extremes, though it took a lot for Rick to get there recently; Carol isn't there yet, which is why she's functioned as the devil on Rick's shoulder for the better part of a season, whispering in his ear.

[AngelaHunter]

Merle I found to be very interesting and they killed him off just when he got to be the most interesting.

 

I've said that all along. No, he wasn't particularly kind or thoughtful and as a man near 60 who grew up in the backwoods of Georgia I wouldn't expect him to be a big advocate of diversity, but he was interesting, IMO, the most interesting character. He was complicated and I would have loved to have seen him around longer.

[Pete Martell]

I've said that all along. No, he wasn't particularly kind or thoughtful and as a man near 60 who grew up in the backwoods of Georgia I wouldn't expect him to be a big advocate of diversity, but he was interesting, IMO, the most interesting character. He was complicated and I would have loved to have seen him around longer.

 

He was an interesting character, but I was glad that he went when he did, because I don't think he would have worked as a regular character - they either would have continued to write him as a bigot, just one we were supposed to love (which is a dangerous trope), or they would have made him into Dixon Woobie 2.0. 

 

I would have had him hightail it out after sparing Michonne and brought him back every once in a while (I wish they'd also just kept doing this with Morgan).

[AngelaHunter]

they either would have continued to write him as a bigot, just one we were supposed to love (which is a dangerous trope), or they would have made him into Dixon Woobie 2.0.

 

Well, "Dexter" made us root for a serial killer. Compared to that, "bigot" is pretty mild. But yeah, I guess you're right about the Woobie. Rick already has one Emo Dixon lap dog and one is more than enough.

[jsbt]

I think there's more than a place for an actor as tremendous as Lennie James to hang around. And I thought the solo episode with John Carroll Lynch was amazing, but I don't think it needed to result in yet another tortured pacifist character which the show already more than blew its wad on with poor dead Tyreese. I think both Chad Coleman and Lennie James could have done and can do more than that, and while I'd be all for pairing James with McBride I know for a number of fans the well is already poisoned re: Morgan. Even I'm tired of his behavior, but I think they can turn him around. God knows nobody expected Carol to be where she is now as a character.

[Morrigan2575]

I think the biggest WTF for me with Richonne was the 180 from the previous episode. It would have made a ton more sense if the Winter Premiere was actually the MSF. Then both the audience and the show rakes a 2 month break so when richonne happens it's not like they're sleeping together the day after Jessie died.

To be honest though that whole episode didn't work for me, especially the wacky adventures of Rick/Daryl.

[AngelaHunter]

Then both the audience and the show rakes a 2 month break so when richonne happens it's not like they're sleeping together the day after Jessie died.

 

Yeah. It's like when Rick's would-be squeeze gets ripped to shreds I could hear Doc Holliday from "Tombstone" saying, "Well, that was a bust." Time to move on.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I'd lay low if I were you, Ford.  Word on the street is that Rick is a big 'Absita' shipper.... 

 

oops, sucks to be you, he found out and I think he's aiming for you.  "Abraham, I heard something I didn't want to.  Did you break up with Rosita?"  "Who's Rosita?";