S06.E08: More Girls than Kody can Handle?

[3girlsforus]

Nope he meant it that way. Isn't Christine only two or three years older than Robyn? Kody's a collector. Only cares about bragging about the number of kids he has, not the actual children when they're here. He and Michelle Duggar are two peas in a pod.

 

Yikes - that would be a match made is cult hell!! :-)   Yes, he definitely meant it that way. It's one of the reasons Robyn is the only wife he cares about. The rest are either no longer willing or able to provide him with more kids so they are all used up. 

[RazzleberryPie]

I'd be very surprised if Robyn has any more babies after this one. King Sol was her Anchor Baby, and this one is the spare to the heir. She made plenty of excuses (Meri wouldn't let her surrogate, she was too busy 'working' and the others refused to help her, etc.) between Sol and this one. She's 37, and if she can hold off three or four more years after this one, there's a good chance she won't have anymore without fertility assistance. If Kody is to stupid to figure this out, then whatever. If Meri indeed does leave, he'll be lining up a younger Wife #4. I hope she out Robyns Robyn.

[suomi]

Madison said that the decision to refuse her baptism came from the First Presidency, which is to say the tippy top of the Mormon hierarchy. I suppose she could be mistaken or lying about that, but if it's true, being in a different area wouldn't change anything for her.

 

I think it's sickening. This church takes the position that the baptism is essential to the fate of Madison's immortal soul. And they're turning her away for PR purposes? Yeah, that's exactly what Jesus would do. 

 

Not at the baptism phase but at the temple-worthiness phase Madison will be asked these two (of fourteen) mandatory questions:

 

Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

 

Do you affiliate with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or do you sympathize with the precepts of any such group or individual?

 

Her entire family consists of apostates and, depending on her ward/her bishop and her stake/her stake president, she could (would) be expected to willingly turn her back on them (shun them) or deal with social and financial isolation herself.

 

If she wasn't sort of a public figure I think they might deal with her less harshly, but given her higher profile I think they're nipping her membership in the bud at the baptism phase.

[3girlsforus]

I'd be very surprised if Robyn has any more babies after this one. King Sol was her Anchor Baby, and this one is the spare to the heir. She made plenty of excuses (Meri wouldn't let her surrogate, she was too busy 'working' and the others refused to help her, etc.) between Sol and this one. She's 37, and if she can hold off three or four more years after this one, there's a good chance she won't have anymore without fertility assistance. If Kody is to stupid to figure this out, then whatever. If Meri indeed does leave, he'll be lining up a younger Wife #4. I hope she out Robyns Robyn.

 

I completely agree but I do think Kody is too dumb to figure this out. When he does figure it out he'll be looking for another womb. Remember, he'll only stop having babies when he creates a child who isn't a great person. UGH - I still can't believe he said that.

[Snarklepuss]

I posted a link on the last page, but it seems like it's actually very common for the LDS church to be hesitant to baptize someone who was involved with polygamy, even if they were never polygamous themselves. A lot of people with polygamy backgrounds have trouble joining the LDS church, not just public figures. I don't doubt, though, that the tv show made the church especially cautious about letting Maddy be baptized.

 

I keep saying "the church" but the decision is actually up to local LDS leaders and it's possible that if Maddy had been in a different mission area she would have been baptized right away.

 

I posted on this before, but I think the LDS church wants to distance itself as much as possible from polygamy in general, so anyone who is that close to a polygamist is too close for comfort in their eyes even if they're not one themselves, but I think the church's motivation has more to do with protecting their image than with beliefs, but that's just my opinion.  They don't want the world thinking they're becoming more accepting of polygamists because they might think the church is becoming more accepting of polygamy itself too.

 

By the way, I can't believe that Maddie and family didn't know this was likely to happen.  When Janelle said something about being surprised because the church comes off as so accepting, I couldn't believe she actually would believe that they wouldn't look askance at Maddie for being part of a very public polygamist family.  I still think this whole thing was a plot device for the show to show how the LDS church rejects them for being polygamists.  It was a slam on mainstream Mormonism, IMO, and a set-up for them to play the victim card, ONCE AGAIN.....

Edited October 14, 2015 by Snarklepuss

[DakotaJustice]

I think they're all just pissed at Kody. The LDS I mean. They don't want to have to deal with him at any level.

[andromeda331]

I think they're all just pissed at Kody. The LDS I mean. They don't want to have to deal with him at any level.

I imagine there's a lot of people who feel that way when it comes to Kody. Not just the LDS.

[RedheadZombie]

Whaaaat?? I've never heard of this. It's an outrage! Many of my ancestors were murdered in Nazi death camps - are you telling me some religious zealot could have found their name on a list and "baptized" them into the Mormon Church? That's criminal chutzpah.

It came out a few years ago that Mitt Romney had his father-in law baptized fourteen months after the man died. He was an atheist.

[deedee2]

It came out a few years ago that Mitt Romney had his father-in law baptized fourteen months after the man died. He was an atheist.

You know, it's all making sense now. Several years ago, my father was trying to research genealogical information about his extended family - most of whom were murdered by the Nazis - and I remember him telling me that he found an extensive database from the most unlikely source: the Mormons! We had no clue why the Mormons would undertake that kind of project, but never bothered looking into it. Now I get it.

 

"Converting" someone without their consent is a despicable act of hubris (it's also, of course, utterly meaningless). To "convert" someone who can't consent because they're dead is beyond the pale. And it's beyond beyond the pale to convert someone who was murdered because of their religion.

[ghoulina]

Ugh, on what planet (Kody's will be virtually empty when all is said and done) did they think it was okay to show Truley an episode of all the girls having fun at the beach but her??? Kody is so insensitive. Just like the adoption announcement - he puts no thought into how anything will actually effect his kids.

[3girlsforus]

How does being denied membership affect Maddie? As an non-denominational protestant membership isn't really that relevant. You can join an specific church if you want but you can also go to the same church for 60 years, participating everything, and not actually become a member. 

 

It sounds like the LDS doesn't work the same way. Does this mean she can't even go to church or is it that she just can't say she's a member?

[Kellyee]

 

I thought the moment when Kody was talking about Robyn being his only shot for more kids was peculiar. In an odd way it seemed candid yet it creeped me out that he seemed to discount the women who gave him 13 kids as played out. Maybe he didn't mean it that way, dunno.

 

Christine and Janelle have both said on camera that they're done making babies. Assuming that Meri is actually done as well, Robyn is his only shot.

 

Kody seemed to do okay with his daughters, but took multiple nasty shots at his wives during his interviews. All the Brown adults seem to have some pretty serious hostility towards each other, buried just below the surface.

 

I always knew Maddy would have to choose between her family and being a formal Mormon. I used to live in an area with lots of Mormons, and its not a religion you can do just on holidays. Her family was never going to be invited to the temple. I'm glad she didn't disown her family though. As dysfunctional as they are, they haven't done anything bad enough to warrant total church banishment. But if she had been baptized and then married a strict Mormon, she would have had to choose anyway. No strict Mormon will be spending Christmas with Kody and his 4 wives.

[mythoughtis]

Christine and Janelle have both said on camera that they're done making babies. Assuming that Meri is actually done as well, Robyn is his only shot.

 

Since Meri has lost all that weight, strange things could happen and she could become pregnant.  She's been pregnant twice, so we know she CAN get pregnant, provided she hasn't hit menopause.   I've seen weight loss followed by pregnancy in women with fertility issues before.  Of course, she still has to have a man involved. Not sure if that is still happening for her at this stage.

 

As to baptism after death - doesn't affect the person's relationship with God at all unless they themselves believed in that while they were alive. You can baptize me as a Mormon after death if you want - I will still have been a no longer attending church Presbyterian. 

It's presumptuous to baptize after death, but also a waste of time.  

 

Editted to add: deedee,  I read your post after I posted.  You said it better  than me!

Edited October 14, 2015 by mythoughtis

[mythoughtis]

Remember, he'll only stop having babies when he creates a child who isn't a great person. UGH - I still can't believe he said that.

 

 

What a thing to say.  Tell me, did any of us with adult children know how they were going to be as an adult while they were infants, toddlers, children, or tweens?  Anyone with adult offspring over the age of 25 knows how  laughable this statement is.  Doesn't he understand that life experiences change someone for good or bad?  His younger childrens' life experiences are already different from his older ones at the same age due to the reality show.  The only other thing he could have meant by this statement is whether or not his children come out of the womb physically and mentally healthy. Does he realize that the age of the parents plays a part in that and that he and all his wives are over that magic age of 35?

[egilsdottir]

The producers need to pull the Catfish card if they want this boring sinking ship to keep sailing.

 

 

I would love to see that. LOVE. Can you imagine Kody's reaction to the news? Or Mariah's? Or Christine's? "You were talking to a man on the internet, Meri? How many wives does he have?" I'm not including Robyn's reaction because she probably knew about the Catfishing the entire time it was going on.

 

On second thought, it might not be a good idea to show the Catfish stuff because can you imagine how many talking heads we'd have to sit through with Meri crying? Even more than she normally does? She'd probably end up flooding Vegas with her tears. They'd also fill the entire episode with crappy songs from Meri's favorite band, Van Lady Love (I went over to MSW's closet the other day because I needed a good laugh, and they were selling Van Lady Love CDs entitled...*drum roll* 'The Kody Brown Family' - no joke), so on second thought, maybe no to the Catfish stuff ;)

Edited October 14, 2015 by egilsdottir

[RealityCowgirl]

They may be desperate enough ($$$$$) to consider that, but seriously. Who would consider that "entertaining?"

And let's face it: this group would find some way to make it boring as hell.

[IvySpice]

 

It sounds like the LDS doesn't work the same way. Does this mean she can't even go to church or is it that she just can't say she's a member?

No, it doesn't work the same way. Membership is crucial for the LDS plan of salvation. They believe you need to go through certain saving ordinances in order to reach exaltation, and those ordinances (starting with baptism) are only for members.

 

She can attend church for her personal edification if she wants, but it won't affect the fate of her soul. She can't make it to the top heaven unless she's a member.

[3girlsforus]

I would love to see that. LOVE. Can you imagine Kody's reaction to the news? Or Mariah's? Or Christine's? "You were talking to a man on the internet, Meri? How many wives does he have?" I'm not including Robyn's reaction because she probably knew about the Catfishing the entire time it was going on.

 

On second thought, it might not be a good idea to show the Catfish stuff because can you imagine how many talking heads we'd have to sit through with Meri crying? Even more than she normally does? She'd probably end up flooding Vegas with her tears. They'd also fill the entire episode with crappy songs from Meri's favorite band, Van Lady Love (I went over to MSW's closet the other day because I needed a good laugh, and they were selling Van Lady Love CDs entitled...*drum roll* 'The Kody Brown Family' - no joke), so on second thought, maybe no to the Catfish stuff ;)

 

I would love to see the actual reactions and feelings about it. Unfortunately we would see a white-washed spin where Meri was a completely innocent victim of some horrible person. There would be no addressing the fact that Meri was looking for another relationship, that she went to Disneyland to turn the emotional affair into a real one, or that if Meri is looking for a relationship there is probably something not so good about her relationship with Kody. And there definitely wouldn't be any discussions about the idea that the divorce had an affect on Meri and wasn't just a 'paperwork situation'. 

[Janc]

 .... so ..... Kody remembered the surf board, but he "forgot" the ankle strap and the wax and whatever else was needed to actually use it.  Riiiiiight.

 

 

And it's too bad there was nowhere in Laguna Beach where he could buy those things in order to use the surfboard he lugged all the way from NV. Ugh...

[rck]

The baptism of the dead is done to give the dead a chance to accept or reject Mormonism. (I actually find it kind of nice that their theology allows for second chances, unlike mainstream Protestant Christianity where if you die a non-Christian you go straight to Hell, which also doesn't really exist in Mormonism--almost no one ends up in Outer Darkness, their Hell equivalent.) The baptism isn't forced conversion because the person can say no on the other side. Mormons think that it will be obvious they were right and so no one will reject the baptism, so effectively it isn't a lot different than just proclaiming every dead person a Mormon, but it is technically done to give the deceased a choice. (Disclaimer: I'm not Mormon and these are not my beliefs.)

 

I don't know what non-LDS groups do regarding baptism of the dead. I would actually really like the Browns to discuss their theology more because I think that's a lot more interesting than most of what they do show.

Edited October 14, 2015 by rck

[ghoulina]

I don't know what non-LDS groups do regarding baptism of the dead. I would actually really like the Browns to discuss their theology more because I think that's a lot more interesting than most of what they do show.

 

Oh, I so agree with you there. We've seen their home church a few times and I've always hoped they'd get into a deeper discussion of what they actually believe, since I'll admit my knowledge of it is limited. But no, we get stupid Robyn's "stomping on my purity" speeches. 

[3girlsforus]

I don't know that they really have that much of a theology. They are about polygamy but when we saw those home churches it definitely felt like that was not something they normally did and it was more for the cameras.

[IvySpice]

The Browns' church (AUB) is very close to the mainstream Mormon church when it comes to theology/doctrine. They think that the mainstream church is legitimate, but it had to ban polygamy for reasons of public pressure as opposed to a change in divine commandments. (If you look at church history, this is more or less true.) The AUB believe that they're keeping the practice alive until the big LDS church is able to practice it openly again. So it makes a lot of sense that Madison, as a monogamist AUB believer, would find the LDS church to be the only fitting spiritual home for her. LDS leadership can deny the association with polygamists all they want, but the AUB is a sibling church, not even a cousin. Madison already believes 99% of the same things they do.

Edited October 14, 2015 by IvySpice

[Adiba]

The baptism of the dead is done to give the dead a chance to accept or reject Mormonism. (I actually find it kind of nice that their theology allows for second chances, unlike mainstream Protestant Christianity where if you die a non-Christian you go straight to Hell, which also doesn't really exist in Mormonism--almost no one ends up in Outer Darkness, their Hell equivalent.) The baptism isn't forced conversion because the person can say no on the other side. Mormons think that it will be obvious they were right and so no one will reject the baptism, so effectively it isn't a lot different than just proclaiming every dead person a Mormon, but it is technically done to give the deceased a choice. (Disclaimer: I'm not Mormon and these are not my beliefs.)

 

I don't know what non-LDS groups do regarding baptism of the dead. I would actually really like the Browns to discuss their theology more because I think that's a lot more interesting than most of what they do show.

So if Maddie passed away ( not to be morbid, but one day it happens to us all), she could be baptized, no questions asked? But because she is still alive and is a member of a family that is polygamous, she cannot be baptized?

[camom]

Their "theology" seems to be whatever Kody thinks it should be.

[rck]

So if Maddie passed away ( not to be morbid, but one day it happens to us all), she could be baptized, no questions asked? But because she is still alive and is a member of a family that is polygamous, she cannot be baptized?

Yes, but since she (in their eyes) rejected the true Gospel on earth she probably won't be able to go to the Celestial Kingdom. She'll be in one of the two lower levels of heaven, probably the Terrestrial Kingdom.

 

(From highest to lowest the kingdoms are Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial. I always have to remember "Sea turtle"--Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial--to get them in order.)

[Marigold]

Madison said that the decision to refuse her baptism came from the First Presidency, which is to say the tippy top of the Mormon hierarchy. I suppose she could be mistaken or lying about that, but if it's true, being in a different area wouldn't change anything for her.

 

I think it's sickening. This church takes the position that the baptism is essential to the fate of Madison's immortal soul. And they're turning her away for PR purposes? Yeah, that's exactly what Jesus would do. 

I don't know if I believe too much of what the Browns say. They are very cagey about their own AUB faith and we know next to nothing about it. Now Maddie is all into being LDS but the LDS won't let her get baptized? And the decision came from the First Presidency?  That's pretty high up over a baptism...guess the Browns are pretty important people?  It sounds off to me. 

The Darger son was baptized and fully converted to be LDS and is serving a LDS mission. Apparently he disentangled himself from polygamy and was not suspicious to the LDS. Wonder why Maddie can't do that?

Maddie seems like a nice young woman but she is still a Brown...a lot of self induced drama. 

[Marigold]

So if Maddie passed away ( not to be morbid, but one day it happens to us all), she could be baptized, no questions asked? But because she is still alive and is a member of a family that is polygamous, she cannot be baptized?

I don't think having a polygamist family stops a baptism. The entire LDS church has its family roots in polygamy...original Mormons all have a grandparent or someone who was a polygamist.  Mitt Romney is a high profile Mormon with a polygamist grandfather. That Darger son is serving a mission so we know he has gone through the temple. 

I really think there is more to Maddie's conversion story. I really do. 

[Aethera]

A friendly note: due to the wealth of discussion points concerning Maddie and LDS, I've created a Maddie thread (which needs a fun name, come make suggestions!)  I think when we start to stray from direct episode into general discussion of Maddie and LDS, it should go in that thread.  Thanks!

[VoteForSummer]

She can attend church for her personal edification if she wants, but it won't affect the fate of her soul. She can't make it to the top heaven unless she's a member.

I'm fascinated by this. So what are her choices now? Does she just accept that fact that she's not going to heaven? Or does she join another church and try to get in by following their "procedure?"

Never mind, just saw the mod post, sorry.

Edited October 14, 2015 by VoteForSummer

[Granny58]

You know, it's all making sense now. Several years ago, my father was trying to research genealogical information about his extended family - most of whom were murdered by the Nazis - and I remember him telling me that he found an extensive database from the most unlikely source: the Mormons! We had no clue why the Mormons would undertake that kind of project, but never bothered looking into it. Now I get it.

 

"Converting" someone without their consent is a despicable act of hubris (it's also, of course, utterly meaningless). To "convert" someone who can't consent because they're dead is beyond the pale. And it's beyond beyond the pale to convert someone who was murdered because of their religion.

I agree with you that it is meaningless and so I really don't care if they do it.  I have availed myself of their genealogy records through Ancestry to build a family tree so I'm glad they have this particular fascination.  They can baptize my dead relatives all they want...I'm sure they're all still Catholic.

[Palomar]

As far as the Catfish stuff goes, I doubt they will ever address it since it basically shows that Meri intended to cheat on Kody or already did if you consider what went down an emotional affair.  Of course technically she didn't cheat since Kody and Meri are now divorced. I'll bet the subject will also be off topic at the season end Tell All. 

[ghoulina]

s far as the Catfish stuff goes, I doubt they will ever address it since it basically shows that Meri intended to cheat on Kody or already did if you consider what went down an emotional affair.  Of course technically she didn't cheat since Kody and Meri are now divorced. I'll bet the subject will also be off topic at the season end Tell All.

 

I agree. They can't stay totally silent - I believe Meri acknowledged it to some magazine, but they're going to try and keep it as quiet as possible. There's no way they want to shine too much light on what a fractured, non-perfect family they are. 

[RedheadZombie]

Since Meri has lost all that weight, strange things could happen and she could become pregnant.  She's been pregnant twice, so we know she CAN get pregnant, provided she hasn't hit menopause.   I've seen weight loss followed by pregnancy in women with fertility issues before.  Of course, she still has to have a man involved. Not sure if that is still happening for her at this stage.

 

For the majority of Meri's infertile years, she was of normal weight.  The weight gain happened since the show started.  As a matter of fact, the flashback during Meri's (Robyn's) episode showed how small Mariah was back then.  There's speculation that Meri only lost weight for the show, and was heavy prior.  But the family pics and video suggest she was always thin or average weight.

 

How does being denied membership affect Maddie? As an non-denominational protestant membership isn't really that relevant. You can join an specific church if you want but you can also go to the same church for 60 years, participating everything, and not actually become a member. 

 

It sounds like the LDS doesn't work the same way. Does this mean she can't even go to church or is it that she just can't say she's a member?

 

You can't really appreciate how different the Mormon religion is, until your good friend (LDS) has a wedding she can't invite you or her FATHER to.  Their temple is extra special, and if Maddie isn't a member, she cannot enter it.

 

ETA:  Just saw note - so sorry.  I thought I had read all the posts prior to posting.  Blame the Homicide Hunter.

Edited October 14, 2015 by RedheadZombie

[MrsSmartyPants]

Wasn't it discovered that Meri's catfish was actually a WOMAN?  An incredibly ... how can I put this ... HANDSOME woman, but woman nonetheless.  

 

I can't see them touching that shit with a 10 foot pole. 

[algebra]

You know, it's all making sense now. Several years ago, my father was trying to research genealogical information about his extended family - most of whom were murdered by the Nazis - and I remember him telling me that he found an extensive database from the most unlikely source: the Mormons! We had no clue why the Mormons would undertake that kind of project, but never bothered looking into it. Now I get it.

"Converting" someone without their consent is a despicable act of hubris (it's also, of course, utterly meaningless). To "convert" someone who can't consent because they're dead is beyond the pale. And it's beyond beyond the pale to convert someone who was murdered because of their religion.

[algebra]

I agree, my great great grandfather was baptized 50 years after his death, nobody consulted him or the family.

As for what other, non-LDS churches do about Baptizing the dead, THEY DONT. Conjuring up the dead is prohibited in both Deuteronomy 18:11 And Leviticus 19:31.

The Bible doesn't say you can't call up the dead, it says you shouldn't. In fact, that is why many Orthodox Jews and Muslims, when speaking the name of a deceased person, will quickly add "may he rest in peace" or "may eternal peace be upon him." The epitaph "rest in peace" refers to the idea that the living should leave you alone.

So baptizing people who are dead really is beyond the pale. Not only are they waking them up, they're making them take a bath.

[RazzleberryPie]

I agree, my great great grandfather was baptized 50 years after his death, nobody consulted him or the family.

As for what other, non-LDS churches do about Baptizing the dead, THEY DONT. Conjuring up the dead is prohibited in both Deuteronomy 18:11 And Leviticus 19:31.

The Bible doesn't say you can't call up the dead, it says you shouldn't. In fact, that is why many Orthodox Jews and Muslims, when speaking the name of a deceased person, will quickly add "may he rest in peace" or "may eternal peace be upon him." The epitaph "rest in peace" refers to the idea that the living should leave you alone.

So baptizing people who are dead really is beyond the pale. Not only are they waking them up, they're making them take a bath.

Say what now? They baptize by proxy - meaning a living person actually gets baptized in honor of/in place of/in the name of the deceased. They're not conjuring anything or digging up a corpse. I do think changing someone's religion without their knowledge or consent is quite rude and honestly, pointless, if the deceased can't consent, but I guess the gesture, from an LDS standpoint, is out of kindness.

[suomi]

That's a kind and generous thought on your part, but the gesture from the LDS standpoint is one of arrogance. Because the belief is that theirs is The One, The Only, True Church. Baptism of the dead by proxy gives one last chance to those who were aware of The Church and rejected it during their lifetime, or those who were unaware of it during their lifetime. Hence: Anne Frank, Mohandas Ghandi, John Lennon, Frank Sinatra, Marilyn Monroe, William Shakespeare, Abraham Lincoln, all of the US Founding Fathers, etc, etc. Every possible newspaper's obituaries in the world are collated (no matter how small the town or the circulation) and all the souls are baptized.

[SometimesBites]

Wasn't it discovered that Meri's catfish was actually a WOMAN?  An incredibly ... how can I put this ... HANDSOME woman, but woman nonetheless.  

 

I can't see them touching that shit with a 10 foot pole. 

Oh MrsSmartyPants...you're too kind. WAY too kind. That lady looks like a damned pit bull. Here's one of my faves of Meri's deceiver:

[Morgalisa]

Regarding Meri's weight loss, when my friend lost 35 pounds very quickly and for no apparent reason, she was diagnosed with diabetes.  

[RazzleberryPie]

Oh MrsSmartyPants...you're too kind. WAY too kind. That lady looks like a damned pit bull. Here's one of my faves of Meri's deceiver:

She and Meri are more equally matched than Meri and Kody. Not that he's Brad Pitt, but on a pure, physical, disregarding personality scale of 1-10, I'd give her a 3-4 and him a 5-6. Factor in personality and decision making skills, and they both drop to zero.

[zenme]

She looks more like Brad Pitt than Kody does.

[MrsSmartyPants]

Oh MrsSmartyPants...you're too kind. WAY too kind. That lady looks like a damned pit bull. Here's one of my faves of Meri's deceiver:

Lol she looks like Kody if he cut his hair and gained 50 lbs.

[AZChristian]

Lol she looks like Kody if he cut his hair and gained 50 lbs.

 

 

And joined Hair Club for Men.

[algebra]

That's a kind and generous thought on your part, but the gesture from the LDS standpoint is one of arrogance. Because the belief is that theirs is The One, The Only, True Church. Baptism of the dead by proxy gives one last chance to those who were aware of The Church and rejected it during their lifetime, or those who were unaware of it during their lifetime. Hence: Anne Frank, Mohandas Ghandi, John Lennon, Frank Sinatra, Marilyn Monroe, William Shakespeare, Abraham Lincoln, all of the US Founding Fathers, etc, etc. Every possible newspaper's obituaries in the world are collated (no matter how small the town or the circulation) and all the souls are baptized.

It is not possible to ask the dead if they want to be Mormons without calling on them. And calling on them is specifically prohibited in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

[Snarklepuss]

Since Meri has lost all that weight, strange things could happen and she could become pregnant.  She's been pregnant twice, so we know she CAN get pregnant, provided she hasn't hit menopause.   I've seen weight loss followed by pregnancy in women with fertility issues before.  Of course, she still has to have a man involved. Not sure if that is still happening for her at this stage.

 

Yes, but Meri is only a few short months from that "magic" age of 45 when even a normal woman's chances of conceiving have dropped down to 3-4% and would likely need IVF to conceive, and with her history of fertility issues with Kody, I see that as a very remote possibility even with IVF.

[leighroda]

Maybe since Janelle and Meri are burying the hatchet they can escape together.

[Snarklepuss]

That's a kind and generous thought on your part, but the gesture from the LDS standpoint is one of arrogance. Because the belief is that theirs is The One, The Only, True Church. Baptism of the dead by proxy gives one last chance to those who were aware of The Church and rejected it during their lifetime, or those who were unaware of it during their lifetime. Hence: Anne Frank, Mohandas Ghandi, John Lennon, Frank Sinatra, Marilyn Monroe, William Shakespeare, Abraham Lincoln, all of the US Founding Fathers, etc, etc. Every possible newspaper's obituaries in the world are collated (no matter how small the town or the circulation) and all the souls are baptized.

 

I agree with this but also most Christian churches believe that this one life is all you get from the standpoint of chances and once a person dies their fate is sealed and you can't make any changes to their fate posthumously.  Baptism after death is also kind of pointless because a person can't be held responsible for what they didn't know before death.  Roman Catholics believe that the dead who never heard Christ's message or were unable to understand it are saved by default because they can't be held responsible for what they didn't know or have the mental ability to understand.  This is even discussed in Paul's letter to the Romans.  So in other words, God already saves such people and they don't need Mormonism to do it for them, thankyouverymuch.  As for people who did hear the message and rejected it, well supposedly their fates are sealed once they die and there's no going back to correct it.

 

Note that I myself think it's an intriguing and appealing idea that there are "levels" to heaven that might allow for more chances at salvation (or oneness with God) beyond this terrestrial life, but interpreting that belief in such a self-serving, presumptuous way is beyond arrogant and misses the point.  What about all those Mormons in heaven that could do their evangelizing for them?  Why the need to baptize posthumously?  I tend to think it has more to do with increasing their numbers in their own minds for their own warped reasons rather than for any of the publicly stated ones.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Snarklepuss

[BlackWidow]

Was it just me or was kody super-awkward with the girls, from the getting ready to go how he talks to them in this kind of 'I don't know you that well, but hey we're all going to do something fun' type vibe to the weird surfer talk to try and be entertaining , jeeze how uncomfortable was that? and the awful little comparisons made to the 'it's cool because they aren't fighting over my time and none of them are worried about stuff like oh who do I love more and isn't it neat that they get scrappy with each other whereas with the wives, they all pick on me...'  I have to read back in the thread because I know this crowd must have picked up on that.

 

It's great Meri and Janelle are seeking to mend fences although as lifetime movie as it was with them hugging and crying in the kitchen, and I really wish it wasn't made to seem like Janelle is like oh please Meri, please accept me and be my friend.. not sure if having to go to therapy and bring all that ugly stuff up of the past is going to help matters rather than hey let's start fresh- I don't see Meri being able to cop to her own BS as far as the past goes, but who knows maybe she will. Still seems weird having to involve a counselor just to be able to get along well enough to hang out and have coffee and talk about whatever is happening now together .

 

They could apologize to each other re the past directly without having to open up old wounds and get into gory details just as they can directly speak to each other about something the other might do that annoys them, or boundaries each may have. Adding the third party almost seems inherently adversarial if there is nothing that has to be negotiated now as far as sharing a kitchen or child-care or the 'rotation' etc.. likely many of the issues that came up back when have already been resolved or don't even figure into it anymore.